Audio Interview, Walt Szymanski, May 6, 2013

  • EVELYN BAILEY: Today is May 6, and we're
  • sitting here with Pat Cloonan and Reverend Waltz Szymanski.
  • And we're going to interview Walt.
  • But he has a Jackie Nudd story that we need
  • to get recorded and documented.
  • WALT SZYMANSKI: Well, Jackie Nudd--
  • this was in the early 1980s.
  • I can't document the year but it was
  • at the time when only immediate family--
  • some very restrictive families would only
  • allow immediate family come.
  • So lovers and partners and people
  • like that were prevented even to do much with the funeral.
  • Well Jackie, coming from the AIDS Rochester Program,
  • as the director, arrived to visit a certain patient who
  • had been dying.
  • And she was confronted by the nurse.
  • As Jackie was putting on the gown and the mask,
  • the nurse said, we have specific instructions not
  • to allow anyone else except immediate family.
  • And Jackie looked at the nurse in her typical fashion
  • and said, "Well, I've got the gown on already.
  • I've got the mask on.
  • I'm putting the gloves on.
  • I'm walking in there and it's going
  • to take hell or high water or the police
  • to come to pull me out."
  • EVELYN BAILEY: That was Jackie.
  • WALT SZYMANSKI: That's a Jackie story.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Go ahead.
  • WALT SZYMANSKI: Well Rochester, at that time--
  • since my ordination, I came to realize--
  • is the queen mother city of liberation.
  • Even people in New York City admitted to that.
  • And then, after twenty years of ministry in Rochester,
  • I went to Pittsburgh.
  • That's my hometown, where I was born and raised.
  • And to my disappointment, Pittsburgh--
  • the Episcopal Diocese in Pittsburgh--
  • was the center of the evangelical, anti-gay movement
  • in the Episcopal church, with its own seminary.
  • My hometown.
  • So I stayed canonically resident in Rochester
  • as a priest, which I still do.
  • And when I went back to Pittsburgh in '93
  • it was an uphill battle.
  • I didn't pay as big a price as my gay brothers and sisters.
  • Pittsburgh itself, the lay of the land,
  • was becoming more open minded.
  • But the churches were very conservative and very anti-gay.
  • And I had to deal with that.
  • In fact, when I came back to Pittsburgh,
  • the bishop at the time was a charismatic evangelical bishop
  • who disagreed with what was happening at General Convention
  • in the Episcopal Church.
  • The Episcopal Church, at that time,
  • was going forward opening its doors to gay brothers
  • and sisters throughout the country,
  • while Pittsburgh was going the other direction along
  • with the dioceses of Dallas, Fort Worth, and Quincy,
  • Massachusetts.
  • They were going in the opposite direction
  • with 12 other bishops who were anti-gay, which caused a rift.
  • And Pittsburgh was the center of that rift-- my hometown.
  • Coming from a very open-minded, very progressive diocese
  • and city, to a very homophobic, oppressive church
  • in Pittsburgh.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Well I want to call you back to your Rochester
  • years, early--
  • I think it would be 1971, '72, when
  • you became affiliated with the Episcopal diocese.
  • And I think-- were you a deacon at St. Thomas
  • Moore on East Avenue?
  • WALT SZYMANSKI: Not St. Thomas Moore.
  • I was a deacon only through my last year of seminary at St.
  • Bernard's.
  • And then when I finished my last year of seminary
  • at St. Bernard's, when I realized
  • that I was going to leave the Roman Church,
  • that's when Bishop Hogan asked for my resignation as a deacon.
  • But gracefully-- he asked me very gracefully.
  • And then I went into--
  • from 1971 to about 1972, somewhere along 1972--
  • I went into about a year or so of affiliation
  • with the Episcopal Church--
  • St. Thomas Episcopal Church off of Winton Road in Brighton--
  • just to learn.
  • And then I had to take the general orders exams,
  • because in the Episcopal Church just graduating from seminary
  • is not an automatic pass to ordination.
  • So I took the general ordination exams and passed that.
  • And then we set a date for my ordination to the priesthood.
  • Bishops Spears, before that time, reinstated my diaconate.
  • There was no re-ordination.
  • And then on June 24--
  • it was a Sunday, in 1973--
  • I was an ordained priest at St. Thomas Church.
  • But by then, I was already engaged in gay and lesbian
  • ministry and was operating as a priest in 1974 out of St.
  • Thomas' Church until I went to St. Luke's-- which is now St.
  • Luke's--
  • St. Simon's around 1975.
  • That's when DI--
  • Dignity Integrity-- was established.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: OK.
  • Now just before you went to DI, in talking to Bruce Hanson,
  • he said that you approached him because he was at St. Luke's.
  • Or did he approach you?
  • Because in your ministry to LGBT people,
  • you were finding men and women of faith
  • in the Catholic tradition who were struggling
  • with that whole thing.
  • WALT SZYMANSKI: They were meeting
  • in another place as a matter of fact, I remember.
  • I forgot where it was, but I attended a couple times.
  • And they wanted to be in a church.
  • They wanted to be part of a Eucharistic celebration, which
  • I felt was their right.
  • So I remember Bruce and I were friends already.
  • And Bruce had known about my gay and lesbian ministry.
  • So just in mutual talking.
  • I think we both mutually--
  • whoever asked first, I don't think it was the point.
  • I just felt that if Integrity was already associating itself
  • with St. Luke's downtown, and the Roman Catholic Dignity
  • people were looking for a church, I said,
  • "Wouldn't it be a wonderful occasion for Dignity
  • and for Integrity to meet together at St. Luke's?"
  • And I spoke to Bruce about this and he thought
  • that would be a wonderful--
  • he said it made sense.
  • But he said, Depending on the Roman Catholic bishop,"
  • said, "because as far as the protocol is concerned here
  • with Bishop Spears, no problem."
  • And with me being like a pastor to the group--
  • or a chaplain-- he said that wouldn't be any problem.
  • But if the bishop would--
  • the Roman Catholic bishop--
  • with would approve of that, then certainly,
  • St. Luke's is the place.
  • And when that was approved by the Roman Catholic bishop--
  • I think it was Bishop Hogan at the time--
  • and Bishop Spears, both bishops agreed.
  • You can't do anything without the bishops agreeing.
  • So both bishops agreed.
  • Bruce Hanson felt OK about it.
  • And I felt well, then I should be downtown.
  • So I became Bruce's assistant priest.
  • He received me as his assistant priest at St. Luke's.
  • And that made me chaplain of Dignity Integrity.
  • And that's when I told St. Thomas Episcopal Church.
  • And they agreed.
  • I mean the clergy there and the people at St. Thomas
  • agreed that it made sense for me to be downtown.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Now, my understanding
  • is that before Dignity and Integrity joined,
  • they were worshipping at a church behind Eastman
  • Kodak, downtown.
  • It was a Hispanic church.
  • WALT SZYMANSKI: I remember some place.
  • I can't-- my memory fails.
  • But they just wanted something else.
  • And they wanted to celebrate the Eucharist downtown.
  • And when Bruce Hanson and the two bishops felt
  • OK about the merging of the Episcopal and Roman Catholic
  • traditions to worship and to have mass--
  • because we call it mass too--
  • at five o'clock, we would alternate.
  • We would have an Episcopal service one Sunday,
  • with maybe a Roman Catholic preacher.
  • Usually it was the sister who would preach,
  • or a Roman Catholic priest.
  • And on a Roman Catholic Sunday, the Roman Catholic priest
  • would celebrate the mass with an Episcopal priest,
  • or myself would do the preaching.
  • That was working out well.
  • Our concern was not only with the Vatican,
  • that gay Roman Catholics and gay Episcopalians
  • were meeting together, but they were receiving communion
  • on the same Sunday.
  • Bruce Hanson went to Canterbury Lectures
  • one time in the Vatican and this Cardinal--
  • it's just an amazing story--
  • was going around.
  • Because all these Anglican clergy throughout
  • the world were in Rome for what they call Canterbury Lectures.
  • So a cardinal was a host of this gathering of Anglican clergy.
  • And Bruce remembers him walking around the room introducing
  • himself.
  • And where are you from--
  • Australia, Great Britain, and Bruce
  • said the cardinal came up to him and said, "And father where are
  • you from?"
  • And he was delighted he called him father, at least.
  • And he said, "Rochester, New York."
  • And the cardinal paused and he says, "Rochester?"
  • And Bruce said, "Yes.
  • It's St. Luke's Episcopal Church, in downtown Rochester."
  • And he remembers the cardinal going, "Oh yes, St. Luke's."
  • EVELYN BAILEY: He told me the same story.
  • (Laughter)
  • WALT SZYMANSKI: He never knew.
  • Was it because there was a joint gay community
  • or they were receiving communion?
  • EVELYN BAILEY: The radical element.
  • That's what it was, Walt.
  • WALT SZYMANSKI: Well, we realized shortly
  • after that we were the only Roman Catholic, Episcopal, gay
  • and lesbian group in the world attending
  • mass in the same church.
  • Isn't that amazing?
  • I mean, we just--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: It is.
  • WALT SZYMANSKI: Yeah.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: It is.
  • And I need to share with you that many people I've
  • interviewed who were involved early on in DI, early
  • on with the Gay Alliance, early on with AIDS--
  • no one ever thought that their participation, their actions,
  • their beginning of groups and organizations
  • would ever have the impact that it has.
  • I mean you don't do it because of what you think will happen.
  • You do it because there's nothing else you can do.
  • You must do this because this is what you believe
  • and this is where you're called.
  • WALT SZYMANSKI: Well, for the gay and lesbian community
  • at the time and myself, it made sense.
  • For me, it was no big deal.
  • OK, so yes, I'm a priest and I'm chaplain.
  • That seems to make sense to me.
  • You know, I don't know what it was--
  • where I felt this freedom.
  • I never was in the full employ of the church, ever.
  • I was always working another job.
  • Usually clinically or I was program director for the center
  • or I was doing private practice.
  • But I was always doing something else
  • and working only part-time with the church.
  • And I don't know maybe that gave me some freedom.
  • But whatever it was, I never really thought it was--
  • and even my brothers' and sisters' in the gay
  • and lesbian community in Rochester--
  • we never thought that we were making history or doing
  • anything very special until later when we looked back.
  • We said, oh wow, that was quite a step.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Now, when you left Rochester,
  • Dignity Integrity was still intact.
  • WALT SZYMANSKI: Oh yeah.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And they were still
  • having Episcopal mass and Roman Catholic mass
  • and worshipping together.
  • It wasn't until later in the 90s that the Roman Catholic church
  • came down hard on ministry to--
  • WALT SZYMANSKI: Bishop Clark, from my understanding--
  • because I was in Pittsburgh at the time
  • and I learned of this--
  • had no choice.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: No he did not.
  • WALT SZYMANSKI: The Vatican had the absolute--
  • this would never-- you'd have to be thrown out
  • of the House of Bishops for something
  • like that to happen in the Episcopal church.
  • But with the Vatican, at the whim of the Pope,
  • at the whim of the Vatican Curia or whatever authority
  • there is in the Vatican.
  • Like Bishop Hunthausen in Portland, Oregon many years
  • ago, Bishop Clark could have could
  • have been pulled out of the diocese
  • and replaced by another bishop, just like that.
  • He had no choice.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: No and I understand that.
  • And I and I firmly believe that he
  • chose to do that because he felt, also,
  • that whoever replaced him would be much more
  • conservative and much less open to the changes
  • and to the movement that was going on here in Rochester
  • in Catholic Dioceses than anyone else.
  • And so he saw this as a sad step.
  • But if he didn't take it, it would have been much worse
  • for the diocese.
  • WALT SZYMANSKI: And in Pittsburgh, looking back,
  • a few of us in Pittsburgh even agreed that he had no choice.
  • And had he been removed, it would
  • have been dire consequences because the Vatican would
  • certainly have replaced Bishop Clark with--
  • and I think Bishop Clark knew this already.
  • So it was painful, but it was the only thing
  • that he could do.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Now, I also want to take you
  • back to those early years-- '73, '74.
  • Because there was a huge outpouring of ecumenism
  • in this area-- in Rochester.
  • Henry Attwell, who was in Avon, began the dialogue, I believe,
  • with quite a few churches to bring them together
  • to have ecumenical healing services,
  • to have ecumenical celebrations.
  • The Catholic Diocese, the Episcopal Diocese,
  • the Presbyterians were open to this.
  • What do you put the openness to ecumenism down to?
  • Do you think it was because Rochester has such an educated
  • populace?
  • Do you think because the men and women
  • of faith in the various dioceses were truly open
  • to movement and to change and to coming together in unity?
  • I mean no one was forcing anyone to do this.
  • WALT SZYMANSKI: I think, looking back
  • from my conversations with civic leaders
  • and also with the church leadership,
  • what's peculiar about Rochester--
  • sure it's a small city compared to a large metropolitan areas,
  • but it's a very technical city.
  • At the time I was in Rochester--
  • I arrived in 1968 and through the 1970s--
  • it was also, per capita, probably
  • one of the most educated metropolitan areas or cities
  • in the United States.
  • And when you get people who are relatively educated
  • and people coming here for the high tech industries--
  • for example, people from Los Angeles,
  • people from San Francisco, Chicago, New York
  • City coming as engineers, physicists,
  • and medical technicians, doctors, and professors--
  • you're getting a very educated mindset.
  • And I'm sure that many of the educated people coming
  • into Rochester probably weren't able to do as much as they
  • would have liked to do in social action
  • in the cities they were coming out of,
  • even though New York in Los Angeles were very large.
  • But in Rochester-- what was peculiar about Rochester,
  • is that you could organize.
  • You could have educated people getting on the telephone who
  • wanted to do things--
  • people who belonged to certain churches
  • that had ecumenical ideas.
  • And in Rochester, unlike New York and Los Angeles
  • and Chicago, you could get on the phone
  • and within the week have twelve people of like mind.
  • Twelve different variations of people
  • with different backgrounds who had
  • a purpose of doing something that they've always
  • wanted to do.
  • And Rochester was a place to do that.
  • It's interesting that Susan B. Anthony was able to organize.
  • Frederick Douglass was able to organize and publish and do
  • things unimaginable in any other city at the time.
  • Martin Luther King Jr.'s School came here.
  • Walter Rauschenbusch with the Social Gospel Ministry.
  • Because of the educated base of Rochester
  • and the ability to organize I think
  • gave Rochester a step ahead of many large cities,
  • which surprised a lot of leaders in other large cities,
  • including the Bishop of San Francisco.
  • Paul Moore, who was a progressive bishop of New York.
  • Mayors admitted that you could do more things in a smaller
  • town with like minded people who were educated.
  • And I think I think that combination really
  • was a blessing to Rochester.
  • Does that makes sense?
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yes, it does.
  • Because there is no other city that I am aware of that
  • has put together the economic, social, and political activism
  • that has worked together to provide for quality of life
  • for the citizens of the community.
  • WALT SZYMANSKI: In the criminal justice system,
  • for example, look at the work the jail ministries,
  • prison ministries, the cooperation between the defense
  • counsel and prosecutors they got together
  • for the rights of prisoners in Rochester.
  • When the Attica uprising happened--
  • what came out of the Attica uprising
  • was a review of the rights of prisoners.
  • Giving more access to voting.
  • More access to more humane conditions in prison.
  • It was people in Rochester, coming out of Attica, New York.
  • If you remember back then?
  • EVELYN BAILEY: I do, yeah.
  • WALT SZYMANSKI: I want to get back to 1974
  • because that's a banner year.
  • As you know, I had the authorization of the Bishop
  • in '73, shortly after my ordination, to--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Water?
  • WALT SZYMANSKI: Yeah, I'll take a glass of water.
  • Thank you.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Go on, Walt.
  • WALT SZYMANSKI: But the bishop authorized it, as he must,
  • for me to bless the union of two women
  • and to inaugurate a discreet ministry, but authorized.
  • Because when the bishop was questioned
  • by other authorities in the diocese,
  • he affirmed that reality.
  • It became far more public when this happened.
  • In 1974, I was brought out in the Rochester newspaper
  • as an openly gay priest, active in a gay and lesbian ministry
  • in the Episcopal Diocese of Rochester.
  • My picture in that paper was larger
  • than the picture of the new Archbishop of Canterbury,
  • which I take great pride in.
  • Because of that--
  • I was working full-time for Roman Catholic Charities.
  • And the head of Roman Catholic Charities--
  • Bishop Hogan still was bishop.
  • The head of Roman Catholic Charities
  • was a priest who then called me into his office
  • and mentioned to me that--
  • and this made news afterwards--
  • that I no longer should be considered
  • for regular employment at the Roman Catholic Family
  • Center because of my questionable ministry
  • that is up against the theology and tradition and Roman
  • Catholic church.
  • That type of ministry doesn't exist
  • in the Roman Catholic church for gay and lesbian people.
  • And that it's very difficult for him
  • to see how I can continue in the employ of a Roman Catholic
  • agency.
  • So he asked for my resignation.
  • Following that, the United Way, which
  • was contributing to the Catholic Charities
  • began to confront that decision by the head of Catholic
  • Charities.
  • Mentioning that they didn't realize
  • that the certain theology came into play when
  • people came for services--
  • counseling services of the Roman Catholic agency.
  • And that the United Way might have
  • to look at renegotiating the funding, at which point,
  • Bishop Hogan removed the head of Catholic Charities
  • and sent them to a parish.
  • And Bishop Hogan assured the United Way
  • that things will be a little more open-minded for services
  • to the population of Rochester at Catholic Family Services.
  • That year about twelve professionals
  • left the Roman Catholic agency because of my resignation,
  • which was OK in a way.
  • Because shortly afterwards I was hired
  • as the program director for an up and coming youth agency,
  • the Center for Youth Services.
  • And we did very well.
  • In my employment there for five years,
  • we grew and we had many counselors.
  • And it was, for me, a magnificent experience
  • working with young counselors, with kids and everything.
  • When that newspaper article came out then
  • it was news that I was authorized for this mystery.
  • So the bishop decided to send a letter
  • to the entire diocese and all the clergy,
  • especially the clergy of the diocese.
  • And I won't read the whole letter, but just paraphrase.
  • It was June 27, 1974, when the ministry in Rochester
  • was made public--
  • never with any church, any mainline church,
  • from the words of a bishop.
  • "I enclose here with a copy of an article which
  • appeared the Rochester Democrat and Chronicle on Sunday, June
  • 9, 1974, together with a copy of a brief article which
  • will be included, inconspicuously,
  • in the July issue of Diocese.
  • My reasons for sending you this information of events
  • are threefold."
  • And he goes through his reasons that he had already
  • authorized this as the bishop and that I
  • didn't do anything untoward.
  • I did everything with his permission.
  • "And I have sought and received the advice of the standing
  • committee in this matter and would ask you
  • to keep this under the cover.
  • But I assume, however, that later this year I
  • may wish to call the clergy of the diocese
  • together for a more extended conversation.
  • Faithfully yours, Bishop Robert Spears."
  • It takes a bishop.
  • Hillary Clinton used to say it takes a village
  • to raise children.
  • Well in the Episcopal church, it takes a bishop to do something.
  • And I give all of the credit to Bishop Spears.
  • They certainly put my picture in the newspaper
  • but the picture of the bishop should have been there.
  • But I think he would have refused.
  • This is a piece of history.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
  • But the bishop wasn't the one who
  • was being questioned or on quote, unquote,
  • the front lines.
  • You were on the front lines, Walt.
  • And after all, the D and C wanted everyone
  • in the Rochester area to know who
  • you were, to make you easily identifiable,
  • so that they could avoid you or embrace you,
  • depending upon their own preference.
  • WALT SZYMANSKI: I remember several Diocesan Conventions.
  • We have them every year.
  • Questions were brought up, particularly
  • by more conservative, more evangelical people.
  • By what authority does this diocese
  • have to exercise such a ministry, which
  • we consider un-biblical?
  • And the bishop was sitting there conducting
  • the business of the convention and he
  • said, "I think Father Walt can answer that question--
  • Walter?"
  • So I was the go to person.
  • And I remember the gentleman--
  • I won't mention his name--
  • was the conservative benchmark of the diocese.
  • He was south of the diocese in the town.
  • And he and I, in my Roman Catholic days,
  • where I was very conservative, we used to bowl.
  • When we were in the same bowling league.
  • It's when I worked at the monastery
  • and I used to go to Geneseo to bowl.
  • And he and I would bowl and drink beer.
  • And I didn't know much about him.
  • I didn't even though he was Episcopalian back then.
  • Finally, when I was ordained an Episcopal priest
  • and became active in the business of the diocese,
  • this gentleman, I realized, was the Episcopalian deputy
  • to our Diocesan Conventions.
  • And he was the litmus test of conservatism in the diocese.
  • Well there was one in 1975, '76.
  • We were at St. Paul's Episcopal Church
  • for our Diocesan Convention.
  • And there was a line item--
  • a budget line item--
  • for the first time for the gay and lesbian ministry,
  • which the bishop called homophile ministry.
  • He didn't want to use homosexual.
  • He said, ""Phile' comes from the Greek word filia,
  • which means love-- love of the same."
  • And so there was a budget item for the homophile ministry.
  • I can tell you this.
  • I know this about the Episcopal Church--
  • nothing really gets carved in wood
  • until a budget item is passed.
  • And then you're really on board.
  • But there was a budget item.
  • And that's when questions were raised by many evangelicals
  • and conservatives that said, by what
  • standard does this diocese exercise
  • such an un-biblical ministry?
  • I remember this.
  • And there was this pause.
  • And the question was directed directly to the bishop
  • and that's when the bishop asked, "Well
  • I think Father Walt can handle that particular question.
  • Walter, would you-- Father Walt, would you address the issue?"
  • Talk about the Holy Spirit coming down.
  • So I got up.
  • I walked to the microphone and I said,
  • "I can tell you this, for as much as I know and believe
  • in the gospels."
  • I said, "At best, I can always tell you
  • that my entire ministry--
  • the gold standard of what I do in ministry,
  • and that includes ministry to the gay and lesbian community--
  • are the gospels of our Lord, Jesus Christ."
  • And I said, "There is no other standard."
  • There was this pause.
  • The conservative gentleman who I used to bowl with
  • got up to the microphone, to the astonishment of everybody,
  • and said, "You know we've been dealing
  • with this for several years.
  • I know Father Walt to be a good, honest,
  • and religious-minded man.
  • When he says that he exercises his ministries
  • under the standards of our Lord, Jesus Christ, I believe that."
  • And he said. " think it's time, now,
  • to put this thing to rest and pass the resolution of this
  • budget."
  • He said, "Enough is enough."
  • And he sat down.
  • It was unanimously passed, except for a few nays.
  • And the bishop came up to me and he said, "How do you?"
  • I said, "What?
  • We're friends."
  • He said, "Really?"
  • I said, "We go back."
  • So that's a beautiful story.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: It is.
  • And it gives testimony, not only to you, but to the fact
  • that when gay and lesbian people are known and are
  • friends with non-gay and lesbian people, that there's no issue.
  • WALT SZYMANSKI: You're absolutely right.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: There is no difference.
  • And there's no intolerance.
  • WALT SZYMANSKI: And when we--
  • we had to put things down and develop things in writing.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Of course.
  • WALT SZYMANSKI: I published.
  • I published papers and documents for Integrity.
  • The first publication from the Homophile Commission
  • in the Diocese was a paper entitled
  • "Starting Off a Basis for Ministry to Gay People."
  • And we went all the way back to God is creative--
  • god is Yahweh.
  • And all the things that are biblical.
  • God is our creator.
  • God is Yahweh.
  • God is reconciling.
  • God is love.
  • God is faithful.
  • God is life-giving.
  • And based on that was our first paper for the Diocese.
  • What made it really special in Rochester was
  • I'm also a clinical fellow of the American Association
  • of Marriage and Family Therapy.
  • My background is marital and family and couples treatment.
  • And I'm also certified in drug and alcohol treatment
  • and psychiatric disorders that are co-morbid with addiction,
  • in the state of Pennsylvania.
  • So I'm a clinician, and I know human behavior.
  • So I instituted, at that time, as the Homophile Commission
  • was formed.
  • I was kind of like the chaplain to the Homophile Commission.
  • We had a lay-chairman.
  • At the same time, simultaneously, I
  • was instrumental in putting together the Diocesan Family
  • Commission.
  • And I was chaplain to that commission.
  • And what we did is we looked at the work
  • we were doing in the Homophile Commission,
  • realizing that this is really a family based ministry.
  • And we got that concurrence from the Family Commission.
  • So, the sense of the Homophile Commission
  • and the Family Commission doing things together that
  • came out of family life.
  • And this is what we presented as we
  • went parish to parish meeting with vestries asking them
  • would they open their doors and be
  • sensitive to the gay and lesbian members of their parish,
  • of their parish families.
  • We didn't ask for people from the outside.
  • All we asked is would you be open-minded to people
  • that are in your church.
  • I used to visit with members of the Homophile Commission.
  • And I represented two commissions.
  • And as I sat there with the vestries who
  • had to make that decision, with usually a priest who
  • was very anxious, I used to see tears
  • in the eyes of vestry members.
  • Because I would always tell them.
  • I said, "At least 25% of us Episcopalians
  • have a son or daughter, niece, nephew, aunt, uncle--
  • even mom or dad, or somebody that's
  • very close to us, a friend who is gay.
  • And is sitting in a closet and very scared."
  • And I said, "We know this."
  • And I said, "That's a large percentage of people."
  • I said, "And I'm being conservative."
  • And that's when I'd see tears in the eyes of people.
  • You know that worked.
  • They couldn't say no.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: No.
  • WALT SZYMANSKI: Because if they said no,
  • they weren't saying no to these outsiders,
  • these radicals marching.
  • No, we were talking about family life in the parish.
  • That was the stuff that made it.
  • And that was the model we used in Rochester.
  • Other dioceses throughout the church began to look at this
  • and started using the same model.
  • As a matter of fact, when Bishop Clark was bishop,
  • he became interested in family life.
  • It wasn't specific to gay and lesbian ministry,
  • but he wanted to get a more expansive view on family life.
  • And Janet Floyd, who was Roman Catholic and a counselor
  • at the Episcopal Diocese Office, invited me,
  • with the affirmation of the Roman Catholic bishop,
  • to join the Roman Catholic Family Commission,
  • to do the study.
  • And it was magnificent.
  • I still have the study--
  • the document.
  • And Bishop Clark-- it was interesting because
  • at that time, clinically, I was heavily
  • involved with people with developmental disabilities.
  • We called them mentally retarded.
  • We used the term developmental disabilities--
  • a program which stemmed out of my church.
  • And there was a bishop who inaugurated that program.
  • And I was I was the clinical director and supervisor
  • after I left the Center for Youth Services
  • at Calvary St. Andrews.
  • And I worked with people with disabilities.
  • That was my specialty.
  • And I remember sitting on that commission at that time
  • and we all went around talking about our particular interest.
  • And I remember Bishop Clark sitting there and I mentioned--
  • I said, "Yes, there are very peculiar difficulties
  • with the people I work with."
  • I said, "In terms of marriage."
  • I said, "In terms of being recognized as a couple."
  • And I said, "Being accepted in the community."
  • I was talking about developmentally disabled
  • people.
  • And Bishop Clark, who was looking at me,
  • says, "Oh, I understand Walt."
  • Because he was aware of my chaplaincy
  • to gay and lesbian comm--
  • and I knew he was thinking about the gay and lesbian population.
  • I said, "People with developmental disabilities
  • have a terrible time being recognized and even
  • being respected to having relationships."
  • And I looked at Bishop Clark.
  • And Bishop Clark says, "That's interesting."
  • He says, "I never thought of that."
  • Isn't that amazing?
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
  • WALT SZYMANSKI: So I was kind of neutral.
  • I was being very neutral, so--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Well, your contribution
  • to growth of human beings in their own faith
  • and in their own development, whether they
  • be gay, straight, lesbian, pink or purple,
  • has been extraordinary.
  • Because you have touched many lives.
  • And you have been instrumental in giving direction
  • to organizations and commissions and agencies
  • to look at what it truly means to minister
  • to the people of God in agencies that
  • are not necessarily churchy or Catholic or Episcopal
  • or anything else.
  • And that perspective is extremely critically important
  • when we talk about differences and helping people be
  • tolerant of differences.
  • This is my--
  • WALT SZYMANSKI: But the people who have ministered to me
  • were extraordinary.
  • And these are my gay lesbian brothers and sisters
  • who have suffered heroically.
  • They've done things far more than I could ever imagine.
  • They've taken risks far more than I could ever imagine,
  • under incredible circumstances.
  • I've never had to suffer.
  • I just told a gentleman the other day.
  • I said, "Yes, the Lord, Jesus, asked us to carry a cross
  • and carry that burden."
  • And I said, "Here's my cross."
  • And it's a tiny little cross.
  • I put it on my shoulder and said,
  • "That's about the size of cross I carried."
  • I said, "Nothing compares to the cross that I saw my--
  • the heroic efforts and burden of my gay brothers and sisters."
  • I said, "My God, if people can do that."
  • And I was in the army.
  • Can you imagine being gay and being
  • in the army or the military back then?
  • And to stay in the closet?
  • I said, "What they did to protect and defend
  • their brothers and sisters, even to the point of death--
  • they're my heroes.
  • They're the people that ministered to me."
  • I said, "Without them I couldn't have done it."
  • I said, "What am I worth?"
  • You understand?
  • EVELYN BAILEY: I do.
  • WALT SZYMANSKI: But for me, like I told you,
  • I didn't even know things were happening until people told me.
  • I said, "Really?"
  • Maybe being naive sometimes is very helpful.
  • The older I get, the more naive I get.
  • Do you know?
  • But the fun part of this whole thing
  • begins when I went to Pittsburgh,
  • which I told you was now from the most progressive element
  • of the Episcopal Church, to the most conservative, homophobic
  • element of Episcopal Church.
  • I wanted to go back to my hometown.
  • I was born and raised in Pittsburgh.
  • So I came back to my hometown where
  • there was an evangelical, charismatic, homophobic bishop,
  • who I needed a license--
  • because my priestly residence was Rochester.
  • So to practice ministry, to even celebrate communion,
  • I needed the license from that bishop.
  • I knew the odds were against me.
  • But I still wanted to go home.
  • And I love Pittsburgh.
  • My mother lived there and my family.
  • I was always a little heartsick for Pittsburgh
  • even when I was in Rochester.
  • So I returned and, naturally, the bishop called me
  • in for a conversation.
  • So I remember the conversation.
  • And he said, "Walter, you've got to understand
  • people are calling me and making the inquiry.
  • What am I doing back in--
  • well, no not back--
  • what am I doing in Pittsburgh?"
  • He says, "With your national notoriety in the Episcopal
  • Church, your addressing The General Convention."
  • In '91 in particular, that's when he walked out.
  • That was the demarcation.
  • That was '91 in Phoenix.
  • They would no longer ever consider
  • censoring an Episcopal bishop who ordained a gay priest.
  • And that's when I addressed the convention
  • and talked about my marriage to Margie, which came afterwards,
  • when I was in Rochester.
  • And I said, we think sometimes we can change, but we can't.
  • And that made it for a lot of bishops.
  • That made the difference.
  • And they never forgot me.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: So did you receive your license?
  • You must have.
  • WALT SZYMANSKI: Oh, yeah.
  • My first conversation with this--
  • Integrity didn't do me any favor by doing this.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: I'll tell Susan.
  • WALT SZYMANSKI: I knew I was in trouble when
  • I walked in the Bishop of Pittsburgh's office
  • when this was sitting on the table.
  • And he says, "What is this?"
  • I have two hometowns--
  • Pittsburgh and Rochester, which represent
  • two extremes of gay and lesbian acceptance within the church.
  • Rochester has been a history making-- he read this--
  • "history making decisions for the Episcopal church
  • and gay lesbian ministry.
  • Pittsburgh has been recognized as headquarters
  • for the biblical fundamentalist segment of the church.
  • They have their own seminary and the bishop of Pittsburgh
  • is well known within the church for his opposition
  • to gay and lesbian issues, such as same-sex marriages
  • and ordination of gay lesbian clergy."
  • And then there was something else
  • he didn't like that perhaps maybe I can
  • do a few things in Pittsburgh.
  • And he says, "You have to be naive, Walt,
  • not to know that people are calling me
  • as to why you're here."
  • And I said, "Well, what do you tell them, Bishop?"
  • He says, What do I tell them?"
  • He says, "I tell them what can I do about it?"
  • He says, "There's nothing under civil rights or authority
  • to stop anyone from moving back to their hometown."
  • He said, "I've told some people, my God, his mother lives here.
  • His family lives here."
  • He says, "I'm not going to stir that pot.
  • As long as Walter and I can come to a gentle person's
  • understanding of his presence in this diocese,
  • I'm going to license him."
  • He says, "I don't want to go there."
  • He said, "We've had enough at General Convention.
  • I'm not going to be pulled into this."
  • He says, "I don't have time or the energy for it."
  • I said, "Well thank you, Bishop."
  • Then he went on.
  • He says, "As long as you and I could understand
  • that you know where this diocese is
  • and not to do anything untoward that
  • would cause us difficulty."
  • He was looking at me.
  • "You understand, Walter?"
  • He said, "Because I will defend your license."
  • He said, "We'll find you a church."
  • And then I told him.
  • I said, "What do you mean untoward?
  • Marching down Grand Street-- which is the main street
  • in downtown Pittsburgh--
  • on gay pride day, carrying a rainbow flag with a megaphone?"
  • I said, "o, Bishop.
  • No, I won't be doing that."
  • I said, "I won't be on television or in newspapers
  • in Pittsburgh."
  • I said, "I'm getting to a place where
  • my legs are getting tired.
  • Let some young people march."
  • But anyway, I came to love that man.
  • He and I had a very close relationship.
  • And they did the down and dirty on him and they got rid of him.
  • He retired early.
  • His wife was very ill.
  • And I went to one of these Evangelical,
  • anti-gay gatherings in Atlanta--
  • where my former wife lived with her new husband--
  • to visit.
  • And I went to this conference.
  • It was at the cathedral there, much
  • to the disappointment of the Episcopal bishop
  • there, who didn't expect that.
  • But somehow they got the cathedral.
  • And Bishop Hathaway, who was that bishop, was sitting there.
  • His wife, Anna, was very ill.
  • And everybody saw me.
  • The people in that conference noticed.
  • You know, like, what's he here for?
  • And I walked down the aisle of the cathedral
  • while people were sitting there.
  • And I saw Bishop Hathaway.
  • I tapped him on his shoulder.
  • And he turned around and he said, "Walter!"
  • With a big smile, he stood up and we
  • embraced in front of everybody.
  • And I said, "You know--" I still get choked up
  • after all these years--
  • and I knew Anna was sick.
  • And I says, "You know, every week I pray for you and Anna."
  • And he had tears in his eyes.
  • And that's the kind of relationship that we had.
  • That's the kind of relationship I want to have--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
  • WALT SZYMANSKI: --but people will disagree.
  • Unfortunately, through manipulation
  • of some of the conservative, homophobic people
  • in Pittsburgh, to replace Bishop Hathaway they
  • had to have another election.
  • And they manipulated it.
  • There were three candidates who never even got
  • a chance to get elected.
  • Bob Duncan is Canon to the bishop,
  • who was very manipulative and who
  • was the center point of this anti-gay movement,
  • this charismatic movement.
  • With the seminary gathered together, from the floor
  • he was nominated and elected.
  • To this day, people--
  • what happened, eventually, there was tension.
  • And a lot of people--
  • whether you agreed with Bob Duncan
  • or you disagreed with him--
  • they still felt that particular election stung.
  • That was not the way to do it.
  • Eventually, Bob Duncan and I had conversations.
  • And Bob Duncan rarely would ever confront me.
  • And he never even touched my license
  • because he knew should he touch my license that I would bring
  • this to the attention of the National church
  • and that he himself could be put on trial for lifting
  • the license of a priest that had already been licensed.
  • And could be called on the carpet for what reason.
  • And the tension increased and increased.
  • Until Bob Duncan likened the Episcopal Church to 9/11--
  • an act of terrorism against the Bible and against the church.
  • Eventually, it got to a point about four or five years ago,
  • where the situation got to the level of the National Church
  • and the House of Bishops.
  • Because Bob denounced the House the Bishops,
  • denounced the presiding bishop as un-biblical.
  • And finally, they put a resolution
  • in the House of Bishops terminating his membership
  • in the house, which means they terminated him as bishop
  • through a house resolution.
  • And then he became re-instituted as a bishop
  • from one of these homophobic diocese in South America.
  • And then, from there, was elevated
  • to archbishop of the North American Anglican Church.
  • He is headquartered in Pittsburgh,
  • where he's the Archbishop.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Oh, my God.
  • WALT SZYMANSKI: Well, the good news is because of my church--
  • Calvary Church-- we took issue and fought
  • property and endowments in court and we won.
  • Because the judge in Pennsylvania--
  • we had some great lawyers from our parish.
  • And the rector, Herald Louis, he was
  • head of Black Church Ministries in the National Church.
  • And we called him to be rector of Calvary.
  • Calvary was instrumental in this.
  • And I'm still on the staff of Calvary.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
  • WALT SZYMANSKI: But the judge--
  • finally when it reached the courts of Pennsylvania--
  • the judge ruled in favor of the continuing diocese
  • of the Episcopal Church.
  • And not the dissident diocese.
  • Because he said, "The rule of thumb
  • here holds for hierarchical churches
  • and the standard would be the Roman Catholic Church."
  • He said, "If a Roman Catholic priest or a bishop
  • decided to leave the Vatican or leave the Roman Catholic
  • church, they would forfeit all property and endowment."
  • He said, "I see no difference."
  • That took several years.
  • It was costly.
  • But we got all the money back.
  • We got all the property back.
  • And what's happened is about half of those churches
  • remained and about one third of the clergy
  • remained with the Episcopal Church.
  • And since that decision, we have four or five more parishes
  • that broke away that came back.
  • A lot of people were so confused they didn't know what to do.
  • And the clergy that were part of Duncan's group--
  • this can be off the record but the--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Well let me just say
  • that I'm grateful for your coming
  • to Rochester and for your spending
  • the time to interviewed.
  • Because the information about Dignity Integrity and some
  • of the inner workings with Bishop Spears
  • needs to be documented, needs to be preserved.
  • WALT SZYMANSKI: He needs to get the credit.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And you have that information.
  • So thank you.
  • WALT SZYMANSKI: One last thing with Pittsburgh.
  • Not only is it good news that we're
  • growing, that churches are coming back,
  • but the newly elected bishop is open up the conversation
  • for gay and lesbian unions.
  • And those conversations are taking place in my church
  • with the bishop attending.
  • It's good news.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Great.
  • Thank you, Walt.