Audio Interview, Walt Szymanski, May 6, 2013
- EVELYN BAILEY: Today is May 6, and we're
- sitting here with Pat Cloonan and Reverend Waltz Szymanski.
- And we're going to interview Walt.
- But he has a Jackie Nudd story that we need
- to get recorded and documented.
- WALT SZYMANSKI: Well, Jackie Nudd--
- this was in the early 1980s.
- I can't document the year but it was
- at the time when only immediate family--
- some very restrictive families would only
- allow immediate family come.
- So lovers and partners and people
- like that were prevented even to do much with the funeral.
- Well Jackie, coming from the AIDS Rochester Program,
- as the director, arrived to visit a certain patient who
- had been dying.
- And she was confronted by the nurse.
- As Jackie was putting on the gown and the mask,
- the nurse said, we have specific instructions not
- to allow anyone else except immediate family.
- And Jackie looked at the nurse in her typical fashion
- and said, "Well, I've got the gown on already.
- I've got the mask on.
- I'm putting the gloves on.
- I'm walking in there and it's going
- to take hell or high water or the police
- to come to pull me out."
- EVELYN BAILEY: That was Jackie.
- WALT SZYMANSKI: That's a Jackie story.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Go ahead.
- WALT SZYMANSKI: Well Rochester, at that time--
- since my ordination, I came to realize--
- is the queen mother city of liberation.
- Even people in New York City admitted to that.
- And then, after twenty years of ministry in Rochester,
- I went to Pittsburgh.
- That's my hometown, where I was born and raised.
- And to my disappointment, Pittsburgh--
- the Episcopal Diocese in Pittsburgh--
- was the center of the evangelical, anti-gay movement
- in the Episcopal church, with its own seminary.
- My hometown.
- So I stayed canonically resident in Rochester
- as a priest, which I still do.
- And when I went back to Pittsburgh in '93
- it was an uphill battle.
- I didn't pay as big a price as my gay brothers and sisters.
- Pittsburgh itself, the lay of the land,
- was becoming more open minded.
- But the churches were very conservative and very anti-gay.
- And I had to deal with that.
- In fact, when I came back to Pittsburgh,
- the bishop at the time was a charismatic evangelical bishop
- who disagreed with what was happening at General Convention
- in the Episcopal Church.
- The Episcopal Church, at that time,
- was going forward opening its doors to gay brothers
- and sisters throughout the country,
- while Pittsburgh was going the other direction along
- with the dioceses of Dallas, Fort Worth, and Quincy,
- Massachusetts.
- They were going in the opposite direction
- with 12 other bishops who were anti-gay, which caused a rift.
- And Pittsburgh was the center of that rift-- my hometown.
- Coming from a very open-minded, very progressive diocese
- and city, to a very homophobic, oppressive church
- in Pittsburgh.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Well I want to call you back to your Rochester
- years, early--
- I think it would be 1971, '72, when
- you became affiliated with the Episcopal diocese.
- And I think-- were you a deacon at St. Thomas
- Moore on East Avenue?
- WALT SZYMANSKI: Not St. Thomas Moore.
- I was a deacon only through my last year of seminary at St.
- Bernard's.
- And then when I finished my last year of seminary
- at St. Bernard's, when I realized
- that I was going to leave the Roman Church,
- that's when Bishop Hogan asked for my resignation as a deacon.
- But gracefully-- he asked me very gracefully.
- And then I went into--
- from 1971 to about 1972, somewhere along 1972--
- I went into about a year or so of affiliation
- with the Episcopal Church--
- St. Thomas Episcopal Church off of Winton Road in Brighton--
- just to learn.
- And then I had to take the general orders exams,
- because in the Episcopal Church just graduating from seminary
- is not an automatic pass to ordination.
- So I took the general ordination exams and passed that.
- And then we set a date for my ordination to the priesthood.
- Bishops Spears, before that time, reinstated my diaconate.
- There was no re-ordination.
- And then on June 24--
- it was a Sunday, in 1973--
- I was an ordained priest at St. Thomas Church.
- But by then, I was already engaged in gay and lesbian
- ministry and was operating as a priest in 1974 out of St.
- Thomas' Church until I went to St. Luke's-- which is now St.
- Luke's--
- St. Simon's around 1975.
- That's when DI--
- Dignity Integrity-- was established.
- EVELYN BAILEY: OK.
- Now just before you went to DI, in talking to Bruce Hanson,
- he said that you approached him because he was at St. Luke's.
- Or did he approach you?
- Because in your ministry to LGBT people,
- you were finding men and women of faith
- in the Catholic tradition who were struggling
- with that whole thing.
- WALT SZYMANSKI: They were meeting
- in another place as a matter of fact, I remember.
- I forgot where it was, but I attended a couple times.
- And they wanted to be in a church.
- They wanted to be part of a Eucharistic celebration, which
- I felt was their right.
- So I remember Bruce and I were friends already.
- And Bruce had known about my gay and lesbian ministry.
- So just in mutual talking.
- I think we both mutually--
- whoever asked first, I don't think it was the point.
- I just felt that if Integrity was already associating itself
- with St. Luke's downtown, and the Roman Catholic Dignity
- people were looking for a church, I said,
- "Wouldn't it be a wonderful occasion for Dignity
- and for Integrity to meet together at St. Luke's?"
- And I spoke to Bruce about this and he thought
- that would be a wonderful--
- he said it made sense.
- But he said, Depending on the Roman Catholic bishop,"
- said, "because as far as the protocol is concerned here
- with Bishop Spears, no problem."
- And with me being like a pastor to the group--
- or a chaplain-- he said that wouldn't be any problem.
- But if the bishop would--
- the Roman Catholic bishop--
- with would approve of that, then certainly,
- St. Luke's is the place.
- And when that was approved by the Roman Catholic bishop--
- I think it was Bishop Hogan at the time--
- and Bishop Spears, both bishops agreed.
- You can't do anything without the bishops agreeing.
- So both bishops agreed.
- Bruce Hanson felt OK about it.
- And I felt well, then I should be downtown.
- So I became Bruce's assistant priest.
- He received me as his assistant priest at St. Luke's.
- And that made me chaplain of Dignity Integrity.
- And that's when I told St. Thomas Episcopal Church.
- And they agreed.
- I mean the clergy there and the people at St. Thomas
- agreed that it made sense for me to be downtown.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Now, my understanding
- is that before Dignity and Integrity joined,
- they were worshipping at a church behind Eastman
- Kodak, downtown.
- It was a Hispanic church.
- WALT SZYMANSKI: I remember some place.
- I can't-- my memory fails.
- But they just wanted something else.
- And they wanted to celebrate the Eucharist downtown.
- And when Bruce Hanson and the two bishops felt
- OK about the merging of the Episcopal and Roman Catholic
- traditions to worship and to have mass--
- because we call it mass too--
- at five o'clock, we would alternate.
- We would have an Episcopal service one Sunday,
- with maybe a Roman Catholic preacher.
- Usually it was the sister who would preach,
- or a Roman Catholic priest.
- And on a Roman Catholic Sunday, the Roman Catholic priest
- would celebrate the mass with an Episcopal priest,
- or myself would do the preaching.
- That was working out well.
- Our concern was not only with the Vatican,
- that gay Roman Catholics and gay Episcopalians
- were meeting together, but they were receiving communion
- on the same Sunday.
- Bruce Hanson went to Canterbury Lectures
- one time in the Vatican and this Cardinal--
- it's just an amazing story--
- was going around.
- Because all these Anglican clergy throughout
- the world were in Rome for what they call Canterbury Lectures.
- So a cardinal was a host of this gathering of Anglican clergy.
- And Bruce remembers him walking around the room introducing
- himself.
- And where are you from--
- Australia, Great Britain, and Bruce
- said the cardinal came up to him and said, "And father where are
- you from?"
- And he was delighted he called him father, at least.
- And he said, "Rochester, New York."
- And the cardinal paused and he says, "Rochester?"
- And Bruce said, "Yes.
- It's St. Luke's Episcopal Church, in downtown Rochester."
- And he remembers the cardinal going, "Oh yes, St. Luke's."
- EVELYN BAILEY: He told me the same story.
- (Laughter)
- WALT SZYMANSKI: He never knew.
- Was it because there was a joint gay community
- or they were receiving communion?
- EVELYN BAILEY: The radical element.
- That's what it was, Walt.
- WALT SZYMANSKI: Well, we realized shortly
- after that we were the only Roman Catholic, Episcopal, gay
- and lesbian group in the world attending
- mass in the same church.
- Isn't that amazing?
- I mean, we just--
- EVELYN BAILEY: It is.
- WALT SZYMANSKI: Yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: It is.
- And I need to share with you that many people I've
- interviewed who were involved early on in DI, early
- on with the Gay Alliance, early on with AIDS--
- no one ever thought that their participation, their actions,
- their beginning of groups and organizations
- would ever have the impact that it has.
- I mean you don't do it because of what you think will happen.
- You do it because there's nothing else you can do.
- You must do this because this is what you believe
- and this is where you're called.
- WALT SZYMANSKI: Well, for the gay and lesbian community
- at the time and myself, it made sense.
- For me, it was no big deal.
- OK, so yes, I'm a priest and I'm chaplain.
- That seems to make sense to me.
- You know, I don't know what it was--
- where I felt this freedom.
- I never was in the full employ of the church, ever.
- I was always working another job.
- Usually clinically or I was program director for the center
- or I was doing private practice.
- But I was always doing something else
- and working only part-time with the church.
- And I don't know maybe that gave me some freedom.
- But whatever it was, I never really thought it was--
- and even my brothers' and sisters' in the gay
- and lesbian community in Rochester--
- we never thought that we were making history or doing
- anything very special until later when we looked back.
- We said, oh wow, that was quite a step.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Now, when you left Rochester,
- Dignity Integrity was still intact.
- WALT SZYMANSKI: Oh yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And they were still
- having Episcopal mass and Roman Catholic mass
- and worshipping together.
- It wasn't until later in the 90s that the Roman Catholic church
- came down hard on ministry to--
- WALT SZYMANSKI: Bishop Clark, from my understanding--
- because I was in Pittsburgh at the time
- and I learned of this--
- had no choice.
- EVELYN BAILEY: No he did not.
- WALT SZYMANSKI: The Vatican had the absolute--
- this would never-- you'd have to be thrown out
- of the House of Bishops for something
- like that to happen in the Episcopal church.
- But with the Vatican, at the whim of the Pope,
- at the whim of the Vatican Curia or whatever authority
- there is in the Vatican.
- Like Bishop Hunthausen in Portland, Oregon many years
- ago, Bishop Clark could have could
- have been pulled out of the diocese
- and replaced by another bishop, just like that.
- He had no choice.
- EVELYN BAILEY: No and I understand that.
- And I and I firmly believe that he
- chose to do that because he felt, also,
- that whoever replaced him would be much more
- conservative and much less open to the changes
- and to the movement that was going on here in Rochester
- in Catholic Dioceses than anyone else.
- And so he saw this as a sad step.
- But if he didn't take it, it would have been much worse
- for the diocese.
- WALT SZYMANSKI: And in Pittsburgh, looking back,
- a few of us in Pittsburgh even agreed that he had no choice.
- And had he been removed, it would
- have been dire consequences because the Vatican would
- certainly have replaced Bishop Clark with--
- and I think Bishop Clark knew this already.
- So it was painful, but it was the only thing
- that he could do.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Now, I also want to take you
- back to those early years-- '73, '74.
- Because there was a huge outpouring of ecumenism
- in this area-- in Rochester.
- Henry Attwell, who was in Avon, began the dialogue, I believe,
- with quite a few churches to bring them together
- to have ecumenical healing services,
- to have ecumenical celebrations.
- The Catholic Diocese, the Episcopal Diocese,
- the Presbyterians were open to this.
- What do you put the openness to ecumenism down to?
- Do you think it was because Rochester has such an educated
- populace?
- Do you think because the men and women
- of faith in the various dioceses were truly open
- to movement and to change and to coming together in unity?
- I mean no one was forcing anyone to do this.
- WALT SZYMANSKI: I think, looking back
- from my conversations with civic leaders
- and also with the church leadership,
- what's peculiar about Rochester--
- sure it's a small city compared to a large metropolitan areas,
- but it's a very technical city.
- At the time I was in Rochester--
- I arrived in 1968 and through the 1970s--
- it was also, per capita, probably
- one of the most educated metropolitan areas or cities
- in the United States.
- And when you get people who are relatively educated
- and people coming here for the high tech industries--
- for example, people from Los Angeles,
- people from San Francisco, Chicago, New York
- City coming as engineers, physicists,
- and medical technicians, doctors, and professors--
- you're getting a very educated mindset.
- And I'm sure that many of the educated people coming
- into Rochester probably weren't able to do as much as they
- would have liked to do in social action
- in the cities they were coming out of,
- even though New York in Los Angeles were very large.
- But in Rochester-- what was peculiar about Rochester,
- is that you could organize.
- You could have educated people getting on the telephone who
- wanted to do things--
- people who belonged to certain churches
- that had ecumenical ideas.
- And in Rochester, unlike New York and Los Angeles
- and Chicago, you could get on the phone
- and within the week have twelve people of like mind.
- Twelve different variations of people
- with different backgrounds who had
- a purpose of doing something that they've always
- wanted to do.
- And Rochester was a place to do that.
- It's interesting that Susan B. Anthony was able to organize.
- Frederick Douglass was able to organize and publish and do
- things unimaginable in any other city at the time.
- Martin Luther King Jr.'s School came here.
- Walter Rauschenbusch with the Social Gospel Ministry.
- Because of the educated base of Rochester
- and the ability to organize I think
- gave Rochester a step ahead of many large cities,
- which surprised a lot of leaders in other large cities,
- including the Bishop of San Francisco.
- Paul Moore, who was a progressive bishop of New York.
- Mayors admitted that you could do more things in a smaller
- town with like minded people who were educated.
- And I think I think that combination really
- was a blessing to Rochester.
- Does that makes sense?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yes, it does.
- Because there is no other city that I am aware of that
- has put together the economic, social, and political activism
- that has worked together to provide for quality of life
- for the citizens of the community.
- WALT SZYMANSKI: In the criminal justice system,
- for example, look at the work the jail ministries,
- prison ministries, the cooperation between the defense
- counsel and prosecutors they got together
- for the rights of prisoners in Rochester.
- When the Attica uprising happened--
- what came out of the Attica uprising
- was a review of the rights of prisoners.
- Giving more access to voting.
- More access to more humane conditions in prison.
- It was people in Rochester, coming out of Attica, New York.
- If you remember back then?
- EVELYN BAILEY: I do, yeah.
- WALT SZYMANSKI: I want to get back to 1974
- because that's a banner year.
- As you know, I had the authorization of the Bishop
- in '73, shortly after my ordination, to--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Water?
- WALT SZYMANSKI: Yeah, I'll take a glass of water.
- Thank you.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Go on, Walt.
- WALT SZYMANSKI: But the bishop authorized it, as he must,
- for me to bless the union of two women
- and to inaugurate a discreet ministry, but authorized.
- Because when the bishop was questioned
- by other authorities in the diocese,
- he affirmed that reality.
- It became far more public when this happened.
- In 1974, I was brought out in the Rochester newspaper
- as an openly gay priest, active in a gay and lesbian ministry
- in the Episcopal Diocese of Rochester.
- My picture in that paper was larger
- than the picture of the new Archbishop of Canterbury,
- which I take great pride in.
- Because of that--
- I was working full-time for Roman Catholic Charities.
- And the head of Roman Catholic Charities--
- Bishop Hogan still was bishop.
- The head of Roman Catholic Charities
- was a priest who then called me into his office
- and mentioned to me that--
- and this made news afterwards--
- that I no longer should be considered
- for regular employment at the Roman Catholic Family
- Center because of my questionable ministry
- that is up against the theology and tradition and Roman
- Catholic church.
- That type of ministry doesn't exist
- in the Roman Catholic church for gay and lesbian people.
- And that it's very difficult for him
- to see how I can continue in the employ of a Roman Catholic
- agency.
- So he asked for my resignation.
- Following that, the United Way, which
- was contributing to the Catholic Charities
- began to confront that decision by the head of Catholic
- Charities.
- Mentioning that they didn't realize
- that the certain theology came into play when
- people came for services--
- counseling services of the Roman Catholic agency.
- And that the United Way might have
- to look at renegotiating the funding, at which point,
- Bishop Hogan removed the head of Catholic Charities
- and sent them to a parish.
- And Bishop Hogan assured the United Way
- that things will be a little more open-minded for services
- to the population of Rochester at Catholic Family Services.
- That year about twelve professionals
- left the Roman Catholic agency because of my resignation,
- which was OK in a way.
- Because shortly afterwards I was hired
- as the program director for an up and coming youth agency,
- the Center for Youth Services.
- And we did very well.
- In my employment there for five years,
- we grew and we had many counselors.
- And it was, for me, a magnificent experience
- working with young counselors, with kids and everything.
- When that newspaper article came out then
- it was news that I was authorized for this mystery.
- So the bishop decided to send a letter
- to the entire diocese and all the clergy,
- especially the clergy of the diocese.
- And I won't read the whole letter, but just paraphrase.
- It was June 27, 1974, when the ministry in Rochester
- was made public--
- never with any church, any mainline church,
- from the words of a bishop.
- "I enclose here with a copy of an article which
- appeared the Rochester Democrat and Chronicle on Sunday, June
- 9, 1974, together with a copy of a brief article which
- will be included, inconspicuously,
- in the July issue of Diocese.
- My reasons for sending you this information of events
- are threefold."
- And he goes through his reasons that he had already
- authorized this as the bishop and that I
- didn't do anything untoward.
- I did everything with his permission.
- "And I have sought and received the advice of the standing
- committee in this matter and would ask you
- to keep this under the cover.
- But I assume, however, that later this year I
- may wish to call the clergy of the diocese
- together for a more extended conversation.
- Faithfully yours, Bishop Robert Spears."
- It takes a bishop.
- Hillary Clinton used to say it takes a village
- to raise children.
- Well in the Episcopal church, it takes a bishop to do something.
- And I give all of the credit to Bishop Spears.
- They certainly put my picture in the newspaper
- but the picture of the bishop should have been there.
- But I think he would have refused.
- This is a piece of history.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
- But the bishop wasn't the one who
- was being questioned or on quote, unquote,
- the front lines.
- You were on the front lines, Walt.
- And after all, the D and C wanted everyone
- in the Rochester area to know who
- you were, to make you easily identifiable,
- so that they could avoid you or embrace you,
- depending upon their own preference.
- WALT SZYMANSKI: I remember several Diocesan Conventions.
- We have them every year.
- Questions were brought up, particularly
- by more conservative, more evangelical people.
- By what authority does this diocese
- have to exercise such a ministry, which
- we consider un-biblical?
- And the bishop was sitting there conducting
- the business of the convention and he
- said, "I think Father Walt can answer that question--
- Walter?"
- So I was the go to person.
- And I remember the gentleman--
- I won't mention his name--
- was the conservative benchmark of the diocese.
- He was south of the diocese in the town.
- And he and I, in my Roman Catholic days,
- where I was very conservative, we used to bowl.
- When we were in the same bowling league.
- It's when I worked at the monastery
- and I used to go to Geneseo to bowl.
- And he and I would bowl and drink beer.
- And I didn't know much about him.
- I didn't even though he was Episcopalian back then.
- Finally, when I was ordained an Episcopal priest
- and became active in the business of the diocese,
- this gentleman, I realized, was the Episcopalian deputy
- to our Diocesan Conventions.
- And he was the litmus test of conservatism in the diocese.
- Well there was one in 1975, '76.
- We were at St. Paul's Episcopal Church
- for our Diocesan Convention.
- And there was a line item--
- a budget line item--
- for the first time for the gay and lesbian ministry,
- which the bishop called homophile ministry.
- He didn't want to use homosexual.
- He said, ""Phile' comes from the Greek word filia,
- which means love-- love of the same."
- And so there was a budget item for the homophile ministry.
- I can tell you this.
- I know this about the Episcopal Church--
- nothing really gets carved in wood
- until a budget item is passed.
- And then you're really on board.
- But there was a budget item.
- And that's when questions were raised by many evangelicals
- and conservatives that said, by what
- standard does this diocese exercise
- such an un-biblical ministry?
- I remember this.
- And there was this pause.
- And the question was directed directly to the bishop
- and that's when the bishop asked, "Well
- I think Father Walt can handle that particular question.
- Walter, would you-- Father Walt, would you address the issue?"
- Talk about the Holy Spirit coming down.
- So I got up.
- I walked to the microphone and I said,
- "I can tell you this, for as much as I know and believe
- in the gospels."
- I said, "At best, I can always tell you
- that my entire ministry--
- the gold standard of what I do in ministry,
- and that includes ministry to the gay and lesbian community--
- are the gospels of our Lord, Jesus Christ."
- And I said, "There is no other standard."
- There was this pause.
- The conservative gentleman who I used to bowl with
- got up to the microphone, to the astonishment of everybody,
- and said, "You know we've been dealing
- with this for several years.
- I know Father Walt to be a good, honest,
- and religious-minded man.
- When he says that he exercises his ministries
- under the standards of our Lord, Jesus Christ, I believe that."
- And he said. " think it's time, now,
- to put this thing to rest and pass the resolution of this
- budget."
- He said, "Enough is enough."
- And he sat down.
- It was unanimously passed, except for a few nays.
- And the bishop came up to me and he said, "How do you?"
- I said, "What?
- We're friends."
- He said, "Really?"
- I said, "We go back."
- So that's a beautiful story.
- EVELYN BAILEY: It is.
- And it gives testimony, not only to you, but to the fact
- that when gay and lesbian people are known and are
- friends with non-gay and lesbian people, that there's no issue.
- WALT SZYMANSKI: You're absolutely right.
- EVELYN BAILEY: There is no difference.
- And there's no intolerance.
- WALT SZYMANSKI: And when we--
- we had to put things down and develop things in writing.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Of course.
- WALT SZYMANSKI: I published.
- I published papers and documents for Integrity.
- The first publication from the Homophile Commission
- in the Diocese was a paper entitled
- "Starting Off a Basis for Ministry to Gay People."
- And we went all the way back to God is creative--
- god is Yahweh.
- And all the things that are biblical.
- God is our creator.
- God is Yahweh.
- God is reconciling.
- God is love.
- God is faithful.
- God is life-giving.
- And based on that was our first paper for the Diocese.
- What made it really special in Rochester was
- I'm also a clinical fellow of the American Association
- of Marriage and Family Therapy.
- My background is marital and family and couples treatment.
- And I'm also certified in drug and alcohol treatment
- and psychiatric disorders that are co-morbid with addiction,
- in the state of Pennsylvania.
- So I'm a clinician, and I know human behavior.
- So I instituted, at that time, as the Homophile Commission
- was formed.
- I was kind of like the chaplain to the Homophile Commission.
- We had a lay-chairman.
- At the same time, simultaneously, I
- was instrumental in putting together the Diocesan Family
- Commission.
- And I was chaplain to that commission.
- And what we did is we looked at the work
- we were doing in the Homophile Commission,
- realizing that this is really a family based ministry.
- And we got that concurrence from the Family Commission.
- So, the sense of the Homophile Commission
- and the Family Commission doing things together that
- came out of family life.
- And this is what we presented as we
- went parish to parish meeting with vestries asking them
- would they open their doors and be
- sensitive to the gay and lesbian members of their parish,
- of their parish families.
- We didn't ask for people from the outside.
- All we asked is would you be open-minded to people
- that are in your church.
- I used to visit with members of the Homophile Commission.
- And I represented two commissions.
- And as I sat there with the vestries who
- had to make that decision, with usually a priest who
- was very anxious, I used to see tears
- in the eyes of vestry members.
- Because I would always tell them.
- I said, "At least 25% of us Episcopalians
- have a son or daughter, niece, nephew, aunt, uncle--
- even mom or dad, or somebody that's
- very close to us, a friend who is gay.
- And is sitting in a closet and very scared."
- And I said, "We know this."
- And I said, "That's a large percentage of people."
- I said, "And I'm being conservative."
- And that's when I'd see tears in the eyes of people.
- You know that worked.
- They couldn't say no.
- EVELYN BAILEY: No.
- WALT SZYMANSKI: Because if they said no,
- they weren't saying no to these outsiders,
- these radicals marching.
- No, we were talking about family life in the parish.
- That was the stuff that made it.
- And that was the model we used in Rochester.
- Other dioceses throughout the church began to look at this
- and started using the same model.
- As a matter of fact, when Bishop Clark was bishop,
- he became interested in family life.
- It wasn't specific to gay and lesbian ministry,
- but he wanted to get a more expansive view on family life.
- And Janet Floyd, who was Roman Catholic and a counselor
- at the Episcopal Diocese Office, invited me,
- with the affirmation of the Roman Catholic bishop,
- to join the Roman Catholic Family Commission,
- to do the study.
- And it was magnificent.
- I still have the study--
- the document.
- And Bishop Clark-- it was interesting because
- at that time, clinically, I was heavily
- involved with people with developmental disabilities.
- We called them mentally retarded.
- We used the term developmental disabilities--
- a program which stemmed out of my church.
- And there was a bishop who inaugurated that program.
- And I was I was the clinical director and supervisor
- after I left the Center for Youth Services
- at Calvary St. Andrews.
- And I worked with people with disabilities.
- That was my specialty.
- And I remember sitting on that commission at that time
- and we all went around talking about our particular interest.
- And I remember Bishop Clark sitting there and I mentioned--
- I said, "Yes, there are very peculiar difficulties
- with the people I work with."
- I said, "In terms of marriage."
- I said, "In terms of being recognized as a couple."
- And I said, "Being accepted in the community."
- I was talking about developmentally disabled
- people.
- And Bishop Clark, who was looking at me,
- says, "Oh, I understand Walt."
- Because he was aware of my chaplaincy
- to gay and lesbian comm--
- and I knew he was thinking about the gay and lesbian population.
- I said, "People with developmental disabilities
- have a terrible time being recognized and even
- being respected to having relationships."
- And I looked at Bishop Clark.
- And Bishop Clark says, "That's interesting."
- He says, "I never thought of that."
- Isn't that amazing?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- WALT SZYMANSKI: So I was kind of neutral.
- I was being very neutral, so--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Well, your contribution
- to growth of human beings in their own faith
- and in their own development, whether they
- be gay, straight, lesbian, pink or purple,
- has been extraordinary.
- Because you have touched many lives.
- And you have been instrumental in giving direction
- to organizations and commissions and agencies
- to look at what it truly means to minister
- to the people of God in agencies that
- are not necessarily churchy or Catholic or Episcopal
- or anything else.
- And that perspective is extremely critically important
- when we talk about differences and helping people be
- tolerant of differences.
- This is my--
- WALT SZYMANSKI: But the people who have ministered to me
- were extraordinary.
- And these are my gay lesbian brothers and sisters
- who have suffered heroically.
- They've done things far more than I could ever imagine.
- They've taken risks far more than I could ever imagine,
- under incredible circumstances.
- I've never had to suffer.
- I just told a gentleman the other day.
- I said, "Yes, the Lord, Jesus, asked us to carry a cross
- and carry that burden."
- And I said, "Here's my cross."
- And it's a tiny little cross.
- I put it on my shoulder and said,
- "That's about the size of cross I carried."
- I said, "Nothing compares to the cross that I saw my--
- the heroic efforts and burden of my gay brothers and sisters."
- I said, "My God, if people can do that."
- And I was in the army.
- Can you imagine being gay and being
- in the army or the military back then?
- And to stay in the closet?
- I said, "What they did to protect and defend
- their brothers and sisters, even to the point of death--
- they're my heroes.
- They're the people that ministered to me."
- I said, "Without them I couldn't have done it."
- I said, "What am I worth?"
- You understand?
- EVELYN BAILEY: I do.
- WALT SZYMANSKI: But for me, like I told you,
- I didn't even know things were happening until people told me.
- I said, "Really?"
- Maybe being naive sometimes is very helpful.
- The older I get, the more naive I get.
- Do you know?
- But the fun part of this whole thing
- begins when I went to Pittsburgh,
- which I told you was now from the most progressive element
- of the Episcopal Church, to the most conservative, homophobic
- element of Episcopal Church.
- I wanted to go back to my hometown.
- I was born and raised in Pittsburgh.
- So I came back to my hometown where
- there was an evangelical, charismatic, homophobic bishop,
- who I needed a license--
- because my priestly residence was Rochester.
- So to practice ministry, to even celebrate communion,
- I needed the license from that bishop.
- I knew the odds were against me.
- But I still wanted to go home.
- And I love Pittsburgh.
- My mother lived there and my family.
- I was always a little heartsick for Pittsburgh
- even when I was in Rochester.
- So I returned and, naturally, the bishop called me
- in for a conversation.
- So I remember the conversation.
- And he said, "Walter, you've got to understand
- people are calling me and making the inquiry.
- What am I doing back in--
- well, no not back--
- what am I doing in Pittsburgh?"
- He says, "With your national notoriety in the Episcopal
- Church, your addressing The General Convention."
- In '91 in particular, that's when he walked out.
- That was the demarcation.
- That was '91 in Phoenix.
- They would no longer ever consider
- censoring an Episcopal bishop who ordained a gay priest.
- And that's when I addressed the convention
- and talked about my marriage to Margie, which came afterwards,
- when I was in Rochester.
- And I said, we think sometimes we can change, but we can't.
- And that made it for a lot of bishops.
- That made the difference.
- And they never forgot me.
- EVELYN BAILEY: So did you receive your license?
- You must have.
- WALT SZYMANSKI: Oh, yeah.
- My first conversation with this--
- Integrity didn't do me any favor by doing this.
- EVELYN BAILEY: I'll tell Susan.
- WALT SZYMANSKI: I knew I was in trouble when
- I walked in the Bishop of Pittsburgh's office
- when this was sitting on the table.
- And he says, "What is this?"
- I have two hometowns--
- Pittsburgh and Rochester, which represent
- two extremes of gay and lesbian acceptance within the church.
- Rochester has been a history making-- he read this--
- "history making decisions for the Episcopal church
- and gay lesbian ministry.
- Pittsburgh has been recognized as headquarters
- for the biblical fundamentalist segment of the church.
- They have their own seminary and the bishop of Pittsburgh
- is well known within the church for his opposition
- to gay and lesbian issues, such as same-sex marriages
- and ordination of gay lesbian clergy."
- And then there was something else
- he didn't like that perhaps maybe I can
- do a few things in Pittsburgh.
- And he says, "You have to be naive, Walt,
- not to know that people are calling me
- as to why you're here."
- And I said, "Well, what do you tell them, Bishop?"
- He says, What do I tell them?"
- He says, "I tell them what can I do about it?"
- He says, "There's nothing under civil rights or authority
- to stop anyone from moving back to their hometown."
- He said, "I've told some people, my God, his mother lives here.
- His family lives here."
- He says, "I'm not going to stir that pot.
- As long as Walter and I can come to a gentle person's
- understanding of his presence in this diocese,
- I'm going to license him."
- He says, "I don't want to go there."
- He said, "We've had enough at General Convention.
- I'm not going to be pulled into this."
- He says, "I don't have time or the energy for it."
- I said, "Well thank you, Bishop."
- Then he went on.
- He says, "As long as you and I could understand
- that you know where this diocese is
- and not to do anything untoward that
- would cause us difficulty."
- He was looking at me.
- "You understand, Walter?"
- He said, "Because I will defend your license."
- He said, "We'll find you a church."
- And then I told him.
- I said, "What do you mean untoward?
- Marching down Grand Street-- which is the main street
- in downtown Pittsburgh--
- on gay pride day, carrying a rainbow flag with a megaphone?"
- I said, "o, Bishop.
- No, I won't be doing that."
- I said, "I won't be on television or in newspapers
- in Pittsburgh."
- I said, "I'm getting to a place where
- my legs are getting tired.
- Let some young people march."
- But anyway, I came to love that man.
- He and I had a very close relationship.
- And they did the down and dirty on him and they got rid of him.
- He retired early.
- His wife was very ill.
- And I went to one of these Evangelical,
- anti-gay gatherings in Atlanta--
- where my former wife lived with her new husband--
- to visit.
- And I went to this conference.
- It was at the cathedral there, much
- to the disappointment of the Episcopal bishop
- there, who didn't expect that.
- But somehow they got the cathedral.
- And Bishop Hathaway, who was that bishop, was sitting there.
- His wife, Anna, was very ill.
- And everybody saw me.
- The people in that conference noticed.
- You know, like, what's he here for?
- And I walked down the aisle of the cathedral
- while people were sitting there.
- And I saw Bishop Hathaway.
- I tapped him on his shoulder.
- And he turned around and he said, "Walter!"
- With a big smile, he stood up and we
- embraced in front of everybody.
- And I said, "You know--" I still get choked up
- after all these years--
- and I knew Anna was sick.
- And I says, "You know, every week I pray for you and Anna."
- And he had tears in his eyes.
- And that's the kind of relationship that we had.
- That's the kind of relationship I want to have--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
- WALT SZYMANSKI: --but people will disagree.
- Unfortunately, through manipulation
- of some of the conservative, homophobic people
- in Pittsburgh, to replace Bishop Hathaway they
- had to have another election.
- And they manipulated it.
- There were three candidates who never even got
- a chance to get elected.
- Bob Duncan is Canon to the bishop,
- who was very manipulative and who
- was the center point of this anti-gay movement,
- this charismatic movement.
- With the seminary gathered together, from the floor
- he was nominated and elected.
- To this day, people--
- what happened, eventually, there was tension.
- And a lot of people--
- whether you agreed with Bob Duncan
- or you disagreed with him--
- they still felt that particular election stung.
- That was not the way to do it.
- Eventually, Bob Duncan and I had conversations.
- And Bob Duncan rarely would ever confront me.
- And he never even touched my license
- because he knew should he touch my license that I would bring
- this to the attention of the National church
- and that he himself could be put on trial for lifting
- the license of a priest that had already been licensed.
- And could be called on the carpet for what reason.
- And the tension increased and increased.
- Until Bob Duncan likened the Episcopal Church to 9/11--
- an act of terrorism against the Bible and against the church.
- Eventually, it got to a point about four or five years ago,
- where the situation got to the level of the National Church
- and the House of Bishops.
- Because Bob denounced the House the Bishops,
- denounced the presiding bishop as un-biblical.
- And finally, they put a resolution
- in the House of Bishops terminating his membership
- in the house, which means they terminated him as bishop
- through a house resolution.
- And then he became re-instituted as a bishop
- from one of these homophobic diocese in South America.
- And then, from there, was elevated
- to archbishop of the North American Anglican Church.
- He is headquartered in Pittsburgh,
- where he's the Archbishop.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Oh, my God.
- WALT SZYMANSKI: Well, the good news is because of my church--
- Calvary Church-- we took issue and fought
- property and endowments in court and we won.
- Because the judge in Pennsylvania--
- we had some great lawyers from our parish.
- And the rector, Herald Louis, he was
- head of Black Church Ministries in the National Church.
- And we called him to be rector of Calvary.
- Calvary was instrumental in this.
- And I'm still on the staff of Calvary.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
- WALT SZYMANSKI: But the judge--
- finally when it reached the courts of Pennsylvania--
- the judge ruled in favor of the continuing diocese
- of the Episcopal Church.
- And not the dissident diocese.
- Because he said, "The rule of thumb
- here holds for hierarchical churches
- and the standard would be the Roman Catholic Church."
- He said, "If a Roman Catholic priest or a bishop
- decided to leave the Vatican or leave the Roman Catholic
- church, they would forfeit all property and endowment."
- He said, "I see no difference."
- That took several years.
- It was costly.
- But we got all the money back.
- We got all the property back.
- And what's happened is about half of those churches
- remained and about one third of the clergy
- remained with the Episcopal Church.
- And since that decision, we have four or five more parishes
- that broke away that came back.
- A lot of people were so confused they didn't know what to do.
- And the clergy that were part of Duncan's group--
- this can be off the record but the--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Well let me just say
- that I'm grateful for your coming
- to Rochester and for your spending
- the time to interviewed.
- Because the information about Dignity Integrity and some
- of the inner workings with Bishop Spears
- needs to be documented, needs to be preserved.
- WALT SZYMANSKI: He needs to get the credit.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And you have that information.
- So thank you.
- WALT SZYMANSKI: One last thing with Pittsburgh.
- Not only is it good news that we're
- growing, that churches are coming back,
- but the newly elected bishop is open up the conversation
- for gay and lesbian unions.
- And those conversations are taking place in my church
- with the bishop attending.
- It's good news.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Great.
- Thank you, Walt.