Video Interview, Ralph Carter, October 20, 2012

  • KEVIN INDOVINO: The first thing we need is for you to,
  • on camera, just give me the correct spelling
  • of your first and last name, how you want it actually
  • displayed on screen.
  • RALPH CARTER: OK.
  • My name is Ralph Carter.
  • R-A-L-P-H. C-A-R-T-E-R.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: And a title for you?
  • If we would give you a title, what would it be?
  • RALPH CARTER: I have a couple of different hats.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Give us both, because I might actually just
  • put both of them on.
  • RALPH CARTER: Well, I'm an engineer at Xerox Corporation
  • and I'm an elder and member of Third Presbyterian
  • Church, Rochester.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So let's just kind of start out a little
  • generally here.
  • We'll focus on the church right now,
  • and we'll get to corporate leader.
  • You've been a member of Third Presbyterian church since 1979.
  • Talk to me about where the church was at in the 1970s in
  • regards to the gay community, and in
  • regards to having gay parishioners in their church,
  • and how they were recognizing them, or not recognizing them.
  • What was the church like that you first stepped into?
  • RALPH CARTER: Well, I moved to Rochester in the summer of 1979
  • after attending Georgia Tech in Atlanta, Georgia.
  • While I was in college I was trying
  • to determine whether or not, as a gay Christian,
  • whether I could integrate my sexuality and my spirituality.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, hold that thought.
  • And stop rolling for a second.
  • Because I just realized something.
  • (pause in recording)
  • Let's go back to that, just kind of talk to me about the church,
  • and particularly as a gay man, coming into the church
  • environment back in the late seventies.
  • RALPH CARTER: I moved to Rochester in 1979
  • to accept a job at Xerox Corporation.
  • I grew up in Shipley, Florida, and went to Georgia Tech
  • in Atlanta, Georgia.
  • While in college, as I was finding myself and starting
  • to come out, church had always been an important part
  • of my life, because it was a place where I could be myself,
  • and a place where I could ask questions and explore
  • the spiritual side of my life.
  • But as I came out, I began to wonder,
  • can I be myself as a gay man in the church?
  • I explored that a little bit in Atlanta.
  • There was a Metropolitan Community Church.
  • And I remember going to a Bible study group
  • where they were speaking positively about gay people.
  • And I had a really hard time with that,
  • because my internal tapes as a kid
  • told me that you can't be gay and be Christian.
  • So when I moved to Rochester on my own,
  • didn't know anybody in town, that
  • was a question in the back of my mind.
  • Should I completely reject the church as a gay man,
  • or is there a place for me in the church?
  • And I think that's true for a lot of people.
  • Very early on I saw the Empty Closet,
  • and there was a little advertisement.
  • There were two ads that I saw, one
  • for Dignity Integrity, which met at then
  • St. Luke Episcopal Church on Fitzhugh street.
  • It met on Sunday evenings.
  • So I started going to Dignity Integrity
  • And then I also had seen an ad for Presbyterians
  • for Gay Concerns, which soon became Presbyterians
  • for Lesbian and Gay Concerns, the chapter in Rochester that
  • met for a monthly potluck supper.
  • So I went to both events.
  • So a lot of my friends actually today,
  • my oldest and dearest friends, are from the Dignity Integrity
  • weekly gatherings.
  • So those gatherings really became like a safety net for me
  • as I began to explore congregations.
  • And so I went to several churches
  • that summer of 1979, several Presbyterian churches,
  • and I happened upon Third Presbyterian Church
  • where Ted Hollenbach, who I didn't
  • know at the time was openly gay in many circles,
  • was the organist and choirmaster.
  • And I really liked the music, and I liked the preaching,
  • and it was a large church, and so
  • I joined that congregation on that basis.
  • Meanwhile, within Dignity Integrity in the fall of 1980,
  • I met my current partner Van.
  • Van Zandten, in October of 1980.
  • So this year is actually our thirty-second anniversary.
  • And he was starting to attend Calvary St. Andrew's Parish,
  • which was a at that time combined Episcopal Presbyterian
  • congregation in the south wedge.
  • That church was already formally open and accepting
  • of gay and lesbian people, and then eventually of transgender
  • and bisexual people.
  • But I hadn't discovered them until after Van and I met.
  • So I felt, in some ways, moving to Rochester,
  • I felt like I was coming into the middle
  • of a movie at that time.
  • Because for the Presbyterians in the mid-seventies,
  • there was a lot of national discussion going on
  • about how and whether gay and lesbian people
  • could be members of the church.
  • And some of that leadership of that national conversation was
  • facilitated by a member of the downtown Presbyterian church,
  • just down the street from Fitzhugh, on Fitzhugh street,
  • Downtown United Presbyterian Church, the member
  • Virginia West Davidson--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Let's pull it back a little bit, let's
  • not rush through this.
  • Let me first pull it back, again, coming to Rochester.
  • Your first impressions, or those first feelings of realizing you
  • were coming into a community that
  • has these congregations that are actually
  • starting the conversation.
  • Or they've already gone beyond conversation
  • and are starting to accept gays and lesbians,
  • being more vocally, more visible with them.
  • What were your first thoughts on what you were finding here
  • in Rochester?
  • RALPH CARTER: You know, as I began to explore congregations
  • in Rochester I came to understand that rather
  • than being something that was not spoken of, that there were
  • a number of congregations they were actually starting to have
  • adult education programs that began speaking out on behalf
  • of and with gay and lesbian members
  • of the community, many of whom were actually
  • members of their congregations.
  • So it was quite a surprise for me,
  • because I grew up south of the Mason-Dixon line
  • where you didn't talk about these things.
  • And so it was really refreshing.
  • And it was really only later that I
  • came to realize that the conversation about civil rights
  • and the place of gay and lesbian people
  • as a minority group within the community
  • was continuing a long tradition of Rochester
  • and upstate New York, with Susan B.
  • Anthony as a contemporary of Frederick Douglass, you know,
  • on women's rights and anti-slavery efforts,
  • and the similarities between the two.
  • Following then to Walter Rauschenbusch who
  • was a faculty member of what was then Rochester Seminary when
  • it was on Alexander Street, and is now on Goodman
  • as Colgate Rochester Crosier Divinity
  • School, who became the voice against the rise
  • of fundamentalism around the country.
  • So Rochester has got a rich tradition
  • for civil rights advocacy.
  • And so as I came to know gays and lesbians who were a part
  • of the '69 Stonewall, bringing all of that energy back
  • to Rochester, we were part of that whole nascent effort
  • of finding ourselves as a gay and lesbian community.
  • So this is continuing a longstanding tradition.
  • So even though Rochester may look
  • very staid and conservative, it sets
  • this deep, rich undercurrent of radical nature.
  • Radical in the best sense of the word, radical as in rooted.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So let's move forward a little bit then.
  • You became a member of the Third Presbyterian Church,
  • and you found a church that you wanted to be a part of.
  • But you made the decision to be more than just a member.
  • You made a decision to start advocating
  • for gay and lesbian rights, or gay and lesbian acceptance,
  • put it that way, within the church environment.
  • Talk to me about the beginnings of that,
  • the beginnings of that thinking for you,
  • becoming somewhat of an activist within the church environment.
  • RALPH CARTER: I would call myself a reluctant advocate,
  • and a reluctant activist.
  • When we would have our meetings with Presbyterians
  • for Lesbian and Gay Concerns on a monthly basis,
  • that was a safe place.
  • And I think it's a rare activist that doesn't
  • know where their safe place is.
  • Otherwise you're going to get slaughtered.
  • Or it could be very dangerous.
  • So PLGC, from a religious perspective, PLGC and Dignity
  • Integrity were places of solace, places to go and lick
  • your wounds, and so forth.
  • So within those communities, I began
  • to wrestle with, OK, I love the church of which I'm a part.
  • My partner is in another congregation.
  • Do I move from my church to his church, or what?
  • And they don't even know who I am.
  • Can I even come out?
  • I don't know.
  • I don't know where they are on the whole gay issue.
  • Fortunately for me, there were members of PLGC
  • who had thought, they deliberately
  • were very intentional about approaching ten congregations,
  • and spoke to the leadership of ten Presbyterian congregations
  • in the five county region, including Third Church,
  • and said, "We would like you to formally consider
  • welcoming gay and lesbian people as members
  • of your congregations."
  • And after a year of sitting on that,
  • the session, or governing body, of Third Church
  • agreed to form a private study group.
  • Wouldn't even tell the congregation,
  • they were so afraid to talk about the issue.
  • At the time, this was a eighteen hundred member congregation
  • on East Avenue, very visible regionally, nationally.
  • And so they were very conservative about how they
  • were going to approach things.
  • Meanwhile, I had come out to the pastors,
  • and was asked to join this cloistered study group.
  • Instead of being framed as a group
  • to talk about homosexuality, it was
  • reframed to talk about human sexuality in the larger
  • context.
  • Because at the time, there were gender issues,
  • there was sexuality among older adults.
  • What happens when your partner dies and you find love
  • and you've got grandkids?
  • What do you do?
  • What about abortion rights?
  • So this task force was to talk about all of that.
  • I was on that task force as a closeted gay man
  • for almost the first year, all of the first year,
  • even though I was called on to facilitate the discussion
  • on homosexuality, which I did, and then came out to the group.
  • And it was a wonderful event.
  • It was a wonderful experience.
  • And so I became more brave, and more open, and more of myself,
  • as the time went on.
  • So we were so excited about the kind of freedom
  • which comes from being open and being able to ask questions
  • no matter what the topic.
  • And some of these quote unquote taboo topics
  • that we recommended to the church
  • that they invite a theologian of national note
  • to come and to lead a weekend conversation about sexuality.
  • And it was Peggy Way from Vanderbilt who came,
  • and she left some very important thoughts
  • with this large congregation, one of which
  • was, never label one another, but recognize that,
  • depending on the topic and where we are in our lives,
  • we're conserving and we're also liberating.
  • We seek liberation, and we seek to save those things which
  • are valuable to us.
  • So she advised us to avoid labels,
  • but to really try to listen to one another
  • and to hear each other out, and to above all, be in community,
  • regardless of where we happened to be on particular issues.
  • Out of that study group, one year long,
  • in the early eighties, formed two groups.
  • One was a support group for gay and lesbian people, which
  • actually continues to meet till this day, twice a month
  • on Monday evenings.
  • It's now called Born This Way, but it used
  • to be the LGBT Support Group.
  • And when it first started, the big debate
  • amongst the session was, well, do we want
  • to call this a support group?
  • Because that means that we actually support gay people.
  • Or shall we call it a discussion group?
  • And of course we were livid about the very idea of not
  • calling it a support group.
  • Ultimately a support group it was.
  • Then they were concerned about well, you can't publicize it.
  • And we knew they were uncomfortable as a session
  • talking about these issues.
  • So we ended up saying, well, we'll develop a model for it.
  • And we had certified counselors facilitating the support group,
  • and it was just going to be for members of the congregation.
  • And then after six months of meetings,
  • we were going to come back and report
  • to you how we were progressing.
  • So we knew that that way we would
  • get a second hearing with them.
  • And it was a very good group.
  • And because the church newsletter went out
  • to the Democratic and Chronicle and City Newspaper and other,
  • they tended to put things in the paper
  • about things that were going on.
  • So we got publicized without our realizing it, in the press.
  • It was a very good gathering.
  • We had, at one point, we actually
  • had some nuns coming from the Catholic Diocese who
  • were trying to figure things out in a safe environment.
  • And it's been very successful.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Let me ask you this, because I know this all
  • started before you even got here,
  • but from your point of view, why did they bother?
  • It would have been so easy for any of the churches,
  • like some of them still do, to say, you know,
  • we're not going to talk about that.
  • We're just going to stick to the scriptures,
  • and this is what we're going to preach,
  • and this is how we're going to operate.
  • Why do you think that some of the Presbyterian
  • churches here and some of the Episcopalian churches,
  • and even Colgate Rochester of Divinity,
  • it would have been so easy for them
  • to just put the blinders on and not even address gays
  • and lesbians.
  • RALPH CARTER: Well it is true that it's easier
  • not to rock the boat.
  • But when people are not able to be themselves fully,
  • then the whole community suffers.
  • And if you're suffering in silence, then you're suffering
  • is just going to continue.
  • And so it's important for people of faith,
  • and people who are of goodwill toward various minorities,
  • whether they're gay or people of color or different abilities
  • or disabilities, to speak out on their behalf,
  • and to speak with them and to speak in solidarity.
  • Because it's the only way things are going to change,
  • is when people speak out.
  • I think a lot of people in congregations, in faith groups,
  • don't realize how important their voice is in the larger
  • conversation, and what healing they can bring for people who
  • are struggling to accept their brother
  • or sister, or their child.
  • And so when the church says that, it's not our place
  • to judge, that's what God is supposed
  • to do we're here to love one another,
  • and to care for one another, and support one another.
  • And when we do what we're supposed to do,
  • then the world will be a better place.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: But within that, we'll
  • just focus on the Presbyterian churches right now.
  • Not all of them were jumping on board here, were they?
  • RALPH CARTER: Oh goodness.
  • When Third Church became an open church,
  • we just said, OK, we want to put down on paper
  • and to say publicly what we've been doing for years, which
  • is to welcome gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender
  • people into the full membership of the church,
  • and the full ministry, including ordained offices
  • within the church.
  • We're putting that on paper and we are communicating that
  • to the world.
  • Less than a mile down the street on East Avenue
  • is Brighton Presbyterian Church, right across from Whiteman's
  • on East Avenue, and they took umbrage to that,
  • because they had started a whole national ministry.
  • I remember they had a national speaker, Colin Cook,
  • who was the director of Homosexuals Anonymous.
  • And they formed the national Presbyterian group
  • for advocating that gay people become ex-gay people.
  • And so when Third Church made its statement in January 1987,
  • after six years of study, deliberate study,
  • we were brought to court.
  • We were taken to court for making what really
  • was a statement of conscience.
  • And so it went through the judicial process,
  • the church courts, from the presbytery permanent
  • judicial commission, to the synod of the Northeast,
  • and then to the General Assembly.
  • And we prevailed.
  • That a statement of conscience--
  • in Presbyterian parlance, we are proud to say that God alone
  • is Lord of the conscience, and that people
  • should be able to speak their mind because only God has
  • the truth.
  • Everybody else is seeking the truth, but we don't have it.
  • Only God can claim the truth.
  • So with that, it's been a very interesting thing.
  • I remember a number of people from the Brighton church
  • and from other congregations would,
  • when the city of Rochester was considering nondiscrimination
  • policies for the city, and people would go to City Hall
  • and so forth.
  • There were a number of anti-gay congregations would go,
  • but then also a number of pro-gay congregations
  • would go, as well.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So it was the culmination of More Light?
  • Is this how Third Presbyterian became a More Light church?
  • RALPH CARTER: Of how we did it?
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Of how you did it?
  • RALPH CARTER: Well, there was a lot of reticence
  • to say publicly that which we were
  • doing more in-house, privately.
  • We had one of our adult education gatherings,
  • and the widow of an esteemed senior pastor,
  • Dr. Hudnut, his wife Betsy, was her first name, Hudnut,
  • would never speak, but she would come to the adult forums.
  • She got up one day.
  • And everybody was like, oh my gosh, this women is speaking,
  • she never speaks.
  • And she looked at a painting of Lilian Alexander,
  • and pointed to it, and says, do you
  • remember in the 1950s, when we were talking about
  • should women be able to pastor congregations?
  • And we are so proud that we authored,
  • as a congregation, that overture to Rochester Presbyterian,
  • then ultimately to the national church,
  • to bring that about by 1957, which
  • was the year after I was born.
  • But if you remember, at the time, we were terrified.
  • What are we doing, stepping out?
  • What are we doing, saying what we believe
  • and moving Rochester and moving the country
  • to a different, more inclusive, more welcoming place?
  • That's where we are now.
  • We are terrified of saying what we believe.
  • But ten years from now, twenty years from now,
  • if we don't say what we believe now
  • and step out in faith that the world can be better
  • for all of our members and for our whole community,
  • and to make the world a better place,
  • if we don't take that step now, then we
  • won't be able to look back on that effort years from now
  • as we look back on accepting leadership gifts of women
  • in the church.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So define for me the premise
  • of the More Light church.
  • What is its core mission?
  • Its core value?
  • RALPH CARTER: Presbyterians are a very egalitarian group.
  • The Presbyterian Church does not have bishops.
  • It's the gathered community which serves
  • as the office of the bishop.
  • We don't have popes.
  • It's the gathered community, representatives,
  • commissioners from presbyteries around the country that
  • serves as the office of the pope, if you will.
  • We also have ideas that I mentioned.
  • God alone is Lord of the conscience.
  • And we speak truth with humility,
  • because God alone has the truth and everybody else
  • is seeking it.
  • So in terms of being a More Light congregation,
  • the underlying issue is, are we going
  • to continue to be a place where all voices can be heard?
  • Because if you're going to seek wisdom,
  • and to seek truth, and to seek justice,
  • you need to have an open table, and voices need to be heard.
  • And so if voices are being stifled,
  • then you're only seeing dimly what
  • you could see more clearly.
  • So you need voices of gay and lesbian people
  • around the table, and you need people of color,
  • you need people with different abilities,
  • need people of different educational backgrounds.
  • You need as many people as you can
  • get to talk about how do we make the world a better place?
  • How do we make our lives better?
  • How do we care for those who need our help?
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, so let's step back a little bit,
  • because we kind of bypassed the formation of CREATE Justice.
  • Let's talk a little bit about that.
  • Define for me what is CREATE Justice
  • and how did that come about?
  • RALPH CARTER: CREATE justice is an acronym
  • called Church's Responsibility to Educate and Advocate
  • Toward Equality, that's the create, justice for lesbian
  • and gay persons.
  • And it started as an idea that came about in a Presbyterians
  • for Lesbian and Gay Concerns meeting, probably
  • at Keith Hirschberger and Lee Fisher's home,
  • in a potluck supper.
  • There had been national fundraising for mission,
  • millions of dollars being raised,
  • I think about maybe three hundred
  • thousand dollars that was going to be kept locally in the five
  • county region around Rochester.
  • And this was in the early 1980s.
  • And this was after Virginia Davidson
  • had brought the report on the church's concern
  • with homosexuality to the national church.
  • It was rejected, but what was part
  • of the final accepted report was that the church
  • was firmly committed to civil rights
  • for lesbian and gay people.
  • So we were crushed by that national statement, however
  • we were encouraged by a member of the staff of the presbytery.
  • How can you turn something bad into something good?
  • Take the good, ignore the bad, and go with it.
  • And so we said well, there's this civil rights advocacy
  • commitment, and the church has always been very supportive
  • of civil rights for people.
  • So we formed a proposal and took it
  • to the presbytery to fund for five thousand dollars
  • a three year civil rights advocacy network,
  • an ecumenical network, for upstate New York,
  • Buffalo to Albany, and down the Pennsylvania line.
  • And so we met.
  • We had members of the Unitarian Church, the Episcopal diocese,
  • the Roman Catholic members, Methodist, Lutheran,
  • so there were a number of denominations involved.
  • And we met at the Episcopal diocesan house on East Avenue.
  • It's really cool place, if you've been inside of it.
  • And I think we developed a network,
  • I think it was about fifteen hundred people in this mailing
  • list.
  • This is prior to email.
  • And it was really a good thing.
  • And a lot of those connections ripple even today.
  • That was from the eighties.
  • So some of those friendships that were made then
  • morphed into interfaith advocates
  • for lesbian and gay people.
  • And also some of those friendships
  • continued on, even recently, a couple of years ago,
  • in terms of the marriage effort.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: But initially with CREATE Justice,
  • what was the core mission?
  • What were you hoping to achieve by starting up this group?
  • RALPH CARTER: CREATE Justice was basically taking
  • some of the national and statewide issues
  • in terms of civil rights for lesbian and gay people,
  • and encourage people of faith to enter
  • into the conversation, especially
  • those who were traditionally progressive people who
  • had experience in working for migrant worker justice,
  • for African-American civil rights, voting
  • rights in the sixties, Voting Rights Act, and a number
  • of different women's gender issues,
  • and to bring those people of faith
  • to open up the conversation, to speak with
  • and to work with and on behalf, and to speak out
  • as allies of the lesbian and gay community.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: And I need to backtrack a little bit.
  • I need you to set up for me just very quickly about Virginia
  • Davidson proposing the legislation to the General
  • Assembly.
  • Just very quickly set that up for me,
  • what that was all about, and then
  • how that drove you, locally, to develop this group.
  • So I need a little bit more about Virginia Davidson.
  • Who she was --
  • RALPH CARTER: Yeah.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: She was from Rochester, right?
  • I think that's significant, that here's
  • this woman from Rochester, going to the national General
  • Assembly, putting forth this proposal.
  • RALPH CARTER: Virginia Davidson was
  • this tall, regal, statuesque, Pittsford housewife.
  • White hair, just absolutely gorgeous woman.
  • When Virginia entered a room, voices would stop,
  • heads would turn, who is this woman?
  • Just a really neat personality.
  • Very interesting person.
  • Virginia's husband, Davey Davidson I think
  • was a vice president at Kodak.
  • When they retired in--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Sorry.
  • One second.
  • Apparently, they can't read signs.
  • OK.
  • So, yeah let's pick it up from the husband.
  • RALPH CARTER: When Davey and Virginia's children
  • left the nest, Virginia and Davey
  • built a townhouse on Gibb Street near the Eastman Theater.
  • And I think it was the early seventies,
  • a very dear friend came out to her who
  • was a Presbyterian minister.
  • Virginia loved this man, and realized,
  • I know nothing about what it means to be gay.
  • But she heard his story, she began to read up on it,
  • and she began to speak out.
  • Virginia was asked to be the Vice Moderator
  • of the national church.
  • And at the time, as a Vice Moderator,
  • sort of like the Vice President of the US,
  • you know a lot of times there's nothing to do.
  • But there was a big national conversation
  • about the church's concern with homosexuality.
  • Virginia was asked to convene that group,
  • and to chair that national group.
  • And as a budding feminist, she was
  • really interested in having community settings
  • where people in the community could come and speak,
  • and so forth.
  • It was remarkable conversations for the first time,
  • for many people around the country.
  • So they brought their report to the General Assembly
  • in San Diego in 1978.
  • The majority report became the minority report.
  • Minority report, which is anti-gay, became the majority.
  • And then they had to reconcile the two.
  • So in the notes about the majority report, which
  • was ostensibly anti-gay, the gay people
  • could not be welcomed in the church
  • but they instead needed to recognize their sin,
  • and whatever kinds of stuff.
  • In the midst of all that was a very clear statement
  • about the church's commitment to civil rights
  • for lesbian and gay people.
  • And from that, then, we subsequently
  • talked about well, how do we turn a bad situation
  • into something good?
  • And that's how the conversation about forming a civil rights
  • advocacy network in upstate New York came.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Let me go back then a little bit,
  • because it seems to me it's a little hypocritical.
  • This majority report about OK, we've
  • got this anti-gay language in there,
  • saying we can't accept gays and lesbians in the church
  • unless they accept their sins or something,
  • but we're also advocating civil rights for gays and lesbians.
  • How did they argue the two?
  • Having both of those two statements in the same report,
  • how did they justify it?
  • RALPH CARTER: Well, it's very difficult
  • to justify what the church does sometimes.
  • But there were very opposing forces
  • in the national conversation, some of whom would say,
  • who are the people who are also anti-gay,
  • would say basically the church has no role in speaking
  • about any civil issue at all.
  • That the sole purpose of people of faith
  • is to save souls, but not be concerned about whether people
  • can have bread on the table, whether they're starving,
  • whether they have a place to stay, a place to live,
  • and so forth.
  • So there's that group.
  • And then there's the other whole group which marched on Selma,
  • there were people involved in registering people
  • to vote, ensuring that African-Americans had access
  • to the ballot box, that when Native Americans were marched
  • across the country there were Presbyterians that marched
  • with them in solidarity.
  • As a number of other denominations as well.
  • So there were these two opposing forces.
  • And there was no way that the pro-inclusion people were going
  • to allow a report to not have some aspects of what
  • they were about.
  • So it was adopted in.
  • So there was this tension for decades,
  • and still continues to this day.
  • This pro-, anti- forces.
  • So it's important to continue to speak out.
  • No matter what.
  • You can't rest on your laurels.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Let's talk a little bit about Janie Spahr,
  • and that incident, as though I'm someone who really
  • doesn't know anything about it.
  • Tell me about Janie Spahr, who she was,
  • what the controversy was and the impact that it had, not only, I
  • think, on the church, but also on the community as a whole.
  • RALPH CARTER: Janie Spahr is a remarkable woman.
  • Janie grew up in Pennsylvania, and her first pastorate
  • was working with a historically African-American congregation,
  • very rural congregation in Western Pennsylvania.
  • She moved to California, and she married a wonderful man,
  • and they have, I think, three children.
  • She came to Rochester in the early eighties,
  • still in her marriage, and spoke to Presbyterians
  • for Lesbian and Gay Concerns folks in a weekend conference.
  • We had a wonderful time together.
  • Very spiritually gifted woman.
  • And then she started coming out, a couple
  • of years after that conversation here.
  • Her husband, Jim, when Janie came out to him,
  • fully supported her.
  • Said Janie, "I'm so glad you have found yourself."
  • He saw that she was being authentic,
  • and discovered that she is, in fact, a lesbian.
  • Her whole family embraced her as she went on this journey.
  • And I remember going to West Hollywood Presbyterian
  • Church when Janie received an award, and she spoke.
  • Virginia Davidson went to that gathering.
  • I met Jim, and Janie and Jim's children.
  • And it was just amazing to me that a family could love.
  • He says, "The only way I can continue to love you
  • is that you be who you are.
  • And that means that we need to be divorced
  • so that you can find love in your life, a true love
  • in your life."
  • So Janie had intersected with the lives
  • of many people in Rochester over the years
  • in her gay civil rights advocacy.
  • Civil and ecclesial rights advocacy.
  • And she was called to be a co-pastor
  • of the downtown Presbyterian church.
  • And it was very clear from the reports being
  • given by members of the nominating
  • committee to the presbytery that she was
  • the best candidate for the job.
  • And so they felt they had to ask her to come,
  • even though she's openly lesbian.
  • When that was challenged, the presbytery
  • endorsed her, and said that everything was in order,
  • the congregation did a very good job reviewing candidates.
  • That was challenged.
  • It was reaffirmed.
  • It went to the synod.
  • That was then affirmed by the synod,
  • and it was a challenged to the national church,
  • and it was turned back.
  • So the downtown church then went through a--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: (unintelligible).
  • OK.
  • RALPH CARTER: Is that-- am I going
  • too much detail you think?
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, I think you could be a little more
  • concise with it.
  • Let's pick it up where the national assembly turned
  • her back.
  • RALPH CARTER: So the primary judicial commission
  • of the national church rejected the decisions of the synod
  • and of the presbytery in supporting the congregation's
  • call to Janie to be a co-pastor.
  • Everybody was devastated.
  • And so there was a couple of months
  • after that decision, a gathering in Rochester
  • of key leaders of the gay movement from around
  • the country and they said, well, if we can't call her
  • as a pastor, why don't we call her as an evangelist?
  • Because what the church really needs, obviously, are stories.
  • They need to hear stories of people.
  • They need to see people who are lesbian
  • and gay, bisexual or transgender,
  • because when they see us, of course, they'll love us.
  • So there was nothing in our governance, called
  • the Book of Order, which said well, you
  • can't be a lesbian and gay if you're an evangelist.
  • So she was called as an evangelist,
  • as a mission project of the congregation.
  • So the downtown church commissioned
  • Janie Spahr to serve them as an evangelist to the whole church.
  • So she traveled across the country
  • and has done a remarkable job.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Is she to this day still an evangelist?
  • Did she ever become a pastor?
  • RALPH CARTER: Janie, she retired.
  • When she stepped down as evangelist for That All May
  • Freely Serve, which was the mission project of the downtown
  • church, she then retired.
  • But prior to accepting the call, she
  • had been a director of a nonprofit organization
  • north of San Francisco.
  • What's that area called?
  • I forget what that area's called.
  • But, anyway.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: (unintelligible).
  • RALPH CARTER: But that is to say, she retired.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So, we have just a short time.
  • We haven't even covered corporate world yet.
  • We'll get a little bit into that.
  • Before we get to that, I want to just get a feel from you
  • about your perception of how to advocate
  • for gay and lesbian rights through the church.
  • You saw this as a place that you could
  • create change for gays and lesbians in the community,
  • in the country, possibly in the world.
  • RALPH CARTER: There are many different types
  • of congregations.
  • And how they view themselves and how they work for change
  • it differs by congregation.
  • Some congregations call themselves--
  • I would call them tall steeple churches.
  • If there's a problem or something needs to be solved,
  • call the mayor.
  • Let's get the mayor's office in here.
  • Let's get the leader from the Center
  • for Governmental Research here.
  • Let's talk about the systemic issues
  • and figure out what needs to be done.
  • We can solve this thing with a simple phone
  • call, or small conversation.
  • There are other congregations that approach change
  • by hearing a story.
  • They need to see, experience their neighbor.
  • So in the case of LGBT civil rights advocacy, or advocacy
  • in general, getting to know members of their congregation,
  • getting to know people in their immediate community,
  • is crucial to help people commit to be on the journey
  • and to speak out on behalf of their friends and neighbors.
  • Other types of congregations, it's like the suffering servant
  • kind of a model, where you need to really clearly understand
  • the injustice, clearly see what the negative impact
  • is of what's going on and why that needs to be changed.
  • And once they understand that, oh my gosh, watch out.
  • Not that everyone is the neat categories,
  • but there are different ways to approach congregations
  • to get them to engage in helping to change the world.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I don't want to miss this point with the story
  • that you shared with me, your first mailing
  • for CREATE Justice and having envelopes returned.
  • Just tell me about that.
  • Tell me about becoming official with official letterhead
  • and sending it out, and then some of the response
  • that you got from it.
  • RALPH CARTER: CREATE Justice, as a committee,
  • said, well, we have to come up with our own branding.
  • So at that time, nationally and internationally,
  • there was a lot of conversation about the persecution of gays
  • and lesbians during the Holocaust.
  • So there's a Holocaust Remembrance Day that
  • was starting to happen locally.
  • And so we took the pink triangle,
  • the inverted pink triangle, as a logo.
  • So we had the pink triangle, and then
  • CREATE Justice for lesbian and gay persons.
  • And we put it right there on the envelope,
  • right there on the top of our letterhead of our letters.
  • And so I think for our first mailing
  • we had maybe two to five hundred people.
  • We actually collected a lot of names of people from Rochester
  • to Buffalo to Albany.
  • This wasn't our first letter, but I
  • think about maybe our fifth or sixth one.
  • Everything was going fine, and then
  • we finally got our letterhead printed,
  • and our envelopes printed.
  • So we said OK, this is great.
  • Let's send this letter out.
  • So we sent the letter out, and then we got twenty or thirty
  • angry letters in response.
  • And in the case of some, return to sender, unopened.
  • And we hadn't had that before.
  • And then we had this crisis.
  • How can we be a civil rights advocacy network
  • if we're unwilling to say that we're advocating
  • for gay and lesbian people, even though it
  • is on the front of an envelope.
  • At that time in the early 1980s, even talking
  • about lesbian and gay civil rights
  • was a risky proposition for many people,
  • especially people in the church.
  • They felt very vulnerable about that,
  • because they hadn't really articulated,
  • we hadn't articulated as a community, what it means
  • to be a lesbian or gay person.
  • And what does it mean to be a person of faith who
  • is concerned about the welfare of neighbors
  • who may be gay or lesbian?
  • So we were shocked at all this returned mail.
  • So we began using Presbyterian envelopes,
  • and used the letterhead on the inside.
  • So that was necessary at that time.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: In retrospect, people looking back at the work
  • that you've done through the church for gay advocacy, what
  • do you want them to know most about what you've done?
  • What are you most proud of?
  • What is the greatest impact do you think that you've
  • had that you really want people to know about,
  • in what you've done through the church for gay advocacy?
  • RALPH CARTER: I'm a reluctant advocate,
  • as I mentioned earlier.
  • And it's not so much what I do, it's what we do,
  • and what we have done.
  • Everything that I've done is always
  • in partnership with other people.
  • Probably the biggest discovery, if you will,
  • is by speaking from your heart, people,
  • even though they might be terrified,
  • we're talking about sex, oh my gosh, they resonate with that.
  • If you speak truly, speak truthfully,
  • and speak honestly and openly, there
  • is tremendous strength in vulnerability.
  • And doing that, people begin to see themselves,
  • and they see how--
  • if you're comfortable in your own skin,
  • people are comfortable with you.
  • More comfortable, or likely to be.
  • So most of my fears about working for change
  • have been unfounded.
  • The fears have been my own fear, internalized fear.
  • Because once I speak with people,
  • or in a group of people, in a conversation,
  • then we move forward.
  • And it's an amazing thing how that happens.
  • But there is tremendous strength in vulnerability.
  • Truth leads to power.
  • I mean, truth can speak to power.
  • Truth is power.
  • So I'd say, that's the biggest discovery for me.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: One more question comes to mind.
  • Then I'll have to stop thinking of questions here.
  • (unintelligible).
  • The Presbyterian churches here in Rochester, Downtown, Third
  • Pres, whatever.
  • They became More Light churches, they've
  • become more accepting of gays and lesbians,
  • become advocates for gay and lesbian rights,
  • march in the gay and lesbian--
  • RALPH CARTER: Pride parade.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: --pride parades, and all that stuff.
  • RALPH CARTER: Oh, I'm afraid I didn't
  • mention about Daily Bread.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Daily who?
  • RALPH CARTER: The meal program for AIDS Rochester.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Right.
  • There's all that.
  • What about the Presbyterian churches nationally?
  • Are they all coming to the same light?
  • Or are there still many challenges ahead there?
  • RALPH CARTER: There have been some great progress
  • in Presbyterian church.
  • At one point, things got so bad in the dialogue
  • that the denomination was even threatening to formally
  • not allow lesbian and gay Presbyterian groups,
  • like Presbyterians for Lesbian and Gay Concerns, More Light
  • churches, More Light Presbyterians, That All May
  • Freely Serve, to have space, even,
  • in the exhibit hall at the national conferences.
  • That was the low point.
  • Fast forward to a couple of years
  • ago, two years ago, the national church formally
  • adopted a policy which says that one's sexual orientation shall
  • not be a barrier to accepting the leadership
  • gifts of gay and lesbian, bisexual, and transgender
  • people in the church.
  • It was one thing getting a group of three or four
  • hundred commissioners to agree to that, clergy and elders,
  • but then to take that then to the one hundred
  • and seventy some odd presbyteries
  • around the country, and the majority of them
  • approved it, including a clean sweep in Alabama,
  • north Florida, Georgia, south Louisiana, Arkansas.
  • I mean, the southeast approved this.
  • So the world has changed.
  • And it has changed.
  • And it's really through the tenacious efforts
  • of a lot of people.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So I want to put that in context for Rochester.
  • How big of an influence do you think the churches here
  • in Rochester had in making this happen twenty,
  • thirty years later?
  • RALPH CARTER: I think Rochester had a big impact nationally
  • on this whole dialogue about accepting the leadership
  • gifts of gay and lesbian, bisexual, and transgender
  • people.
  • In the 1980s, in the early eighties,
  • our region had the most More Light churches of any region
  • in the entire country.
  • We've had three or four national conferences
  • in Rochester over the last twenty years,
  • more than any other region of the entire country.
  • People would ask the question, what is it about Rochester?
  • Is there something in your water?
  • How is it that you can be so progressive on these issues.
  • And so I think Rochester, we're tenacious.
  • Rochester, when it puts its mind to it, can make things happen.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: All right, let's jump ship
  • from here a little bit.
  • Just little short bites on the corporate world,
  • more so with Out and Equal.
  • Before we get into what Out and Equal is, can you just give me
  • a little bit of information about some
  • of the pre-corporate business gay groups
  • that have formed over the years, and what
  • they were trying to do in regards
  • to advocating for LGBT rights.
  • And then we'll move into how that all kind of steered
  • its way into what we now know as Out and Equal.
  • RALPH CARTER: With the advent of the internet,
  • gay people really began to find one another around the country
  • and in Rochester.
  • So that was the beginning of GALAXe Pride at Work at Xerox.
  • Also I think Lambda Network at Kodak.
  • Having the internet and being able to communicate and find
  • gay and lesbian people within your company
  • was really supported with the advent of the internet.
  • And so as companies began to really work
  • on the importance of recognizing diversity
  • and how important a diverse employee population
  • helps the company to be more successful, when
  • that kind of vision as a corporate way of how
  • do we hire, how do we mentor, how do we promote employees,
  • and what is the kind of work environment that we want
  • to have for our employees so that they can succeed
  • and we can really be entrepreneurial and really
  • succeed as a corporate effort?
  • The gay and lesbian piece of that began to emerge.
  • And so employee resource groups, or caucus groups,
  • however you want to term them, began to form.
  • So Kodak, Xerox, Bausch and Lomb for instance, all
  • have employee resource groups.
  • And we began to be asked by other companies in the region,
  • How do we start that employee group?
  • How do you how do you make the business case, and so forth.
  • And so with that we decided to form a collaborative effort
  • locally.
  • One, how do you name it?
  • One name was going to be Orb, Out in Rochester for Business.
  • And then we settled on FLLWA, Finger Lakes LGBT Workplace
  • Alliance, little bit of an acronym.
  • And then eventually that morphed to Out and Equal,
  • New York Finger Lakes, as a part of a national workplace
  • advocacy for equality based in San Francisco.
  • So Rochester, our New York Finger Lakes,
  • is one of eighteen affiliates around the country,
  • and we're the second largest.
  • We're bigger than Chicago, bigger than New York,
  • San Francisco, L.A., Dallas, Atlanta is
  • the only one bigger than Rochester,
  • and it's really quite an amazing thing.
  • Simultaneous with that, the corporate effort
  • from the early, maybe, late eighties, late 1988
  • and early nineties, and then in the nineties
  • there was also a number of people getting together
  • socially, and I'm not sure which name was first,
  • was it Fruits in Suits?
  • Then Community Business Forum.
  • Those were monthly networking gatherings,
  • and what was really great is people also
  • had a concern about the whole community.
  • And so they over time adopted the pride
  • parade, and organizing to bring the pride parade every year.
  • And so the fundraising, some of the monies
  • that came in every month, went into the coffers
  • to support the pride parade.
  • Eventually the Community Business Forum
  • and Out and Equal merged.
  • So we now have, in terms of the monthly networking,
  • there's second Thursdays networking event every month
  • that Out and Equal organizes, and what's
  • been really great is that the Gay Alliance, as an umbrella
  • organization for the entire community,
  • has taken on the organizing of the pride parade,
  • and has been doing a super job in the last several years
  • of getting the entire community engaged to bring the pride
  • parade.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So if you were to define the one main purpose
  • of Out and Equal, what is it?
  • Why do you need to exist?
  • Let me ask it that way.
  • RALPH CARTER: The purpose of Out and Equal
  • is to promote workplace equality for lesbian, gay, bisexual,
  • and transgender people.
  • If you're in the work world, you spend at least eight hours
  • a day.
  • So that's like, one third of twenty-four hours a day
  • on weekdays, and sometimes more than that, in the work world.
  • If you cannot bring your full self to the work,
  • if you need to watch your back, then you're expending a lot
  • of energy protecting yourself.
  • If you're concerned that people are going to like,
  • card your car in the parking lot,
  • or if you're not going to get promoted
  • if you bring a photograph of your partner
  • or your husband or your spouse and put it on your desk,
  • then you're expending a lot of negative energy
  • to just survive.
  • We don't need that.
  • LGBT people do not need that kind of hassle.
  • Your company, if they want to be successful,
  • they need work environments where people can thrive.
  • And so that's what Out and Equal is all about.
  • Workplace equality.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So educate me a little bit.
  • I know Out and Equal because of the second Thursday
  • social events where I'm networking with businesspeople,
  • but there are primarily gay businesspeople
  • who are there for the same reason
  • with other gay businesspeople.
  • But how is Out and Equal actually
  • helping the corporations themselves?
  • Or educating the corporations?
  • You know, getting outside of the Thursday night
  • social events, what is Out and Equal doing to actually educate
  • management, educate presidents and vice presidents?
  • RALPH CARTER: Right.
  • Out and Equal organizes an employee resource
  • group leadership council, and so that group meets quarterly.
  • And so it's for people who are leading or deeply involved
  • within their own companies to either sustain their employee
  • resource group for lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender
  • employees, or if they're considering forming one.
  • So it was very interesting in the last two years,
  • where University of Rochester has become involved,
  • as well as St. John Fisher has gotten involved.
  • A number of the college environments,
  • for instance, our colleges are our largest employers now
  • in the Rochester area, they have pride groups
  • for their students, but a lot of them
  • do not have anything for staff and employees.
  • so that's what we're about.
  • So we've been a place where conversation
  • can happen, for instance, at the University of Rochester,
  • to encourage them about how they can form their employee
  • group, their network, but then also, as a result,
  • they have since looked at what are the health care
  • policies that they have for people coming
  • to the Strong Hospital?
  • What are their admissions policies,
  • what kind of education do they need
  • for employees about how to be good health care
  • providers in the hospital setting for people
  • who are in the hospital?
  • So it's all good stuff.
  • It's important conversation to have.
  • In addition to that kind of sharing best practices,
  • we're having a workshop next week
  • to which we're inviting HR, Human Resource professionals,
  • as an educational event, on how to form LGBT employee groups
  • and what are some of the best practices
  • that employee groups have?
  • How can employee groups where lesbian, gay, bisexual,
  • and transgender employees provide input
  • to their companies about policies
  • and about work practices and so forth.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I have a hundred more questions for you,
  • but we don't have enough time.