Video Interview, Jackie Nudd, August 16, 2012
- KEVIN INDOVINO: First, I need you give me
- the correct spelling of your first and last name.
- JACKIE NUDD: Jackie Nudd.
- J-A-C-K-I-E. Last name is Nudd, N-U-D-D.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, Jackie.
- I want to start out early eighties.
- JACKIE NUDD: OK.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Do you remember the first time
- you heard about AIDS, and specifically,
- the first time you heard that it had hit Rochester?
- JACKIE NUDD: It was probably early
- '83 when we got the word that there was a disease, hitting
- gay men primarily.
- It was called the gay cancer at that point.
- And Sue Cowell was involved in starting meeting with people,
- talking about the impact it's going to have
- on the community at large.
- And so we started putting together AIDS Rochester.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
- What kind of work were you doing at that time, when you first
- heard about AIDS?
- Where were you at?
- And then we're going to get into then how did you get involved.
- JACKIE NUDD: OK.
- I was working at Kodak at the time, in the big bull pen
- and that was fun.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Can you talk to me
- a little bit about when you first
- heard about AIDS, when you first heard
- about this new, gay disease?
- What was going on in your head?
- What was--
- JACKIE NUDD: First of all, I didn't
- think any disease was going to stay within one community.
- And I have kids, and I was concerned
- about them, and the exposure, and what the world was
- going to be like for them.
- But in addition, I got thought the ramifications
- against the gay community were going
- to be significant, if they could blame this on us, also.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So let's go back to the very beginning.
- How did you start getting involved?
- JACKIE NUDD: Well, I was President of the Gay Alliance,
- so Sue and I worked quite closely together.
- And when I first started getting involved,
- I started studying the disease, and the symptoms,
- and all the ramifications of it.
- So--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: And at some point
- there came a discussion about forming an organization--
- JACKIE NUDD: Right.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: --to deal with this.
- Can you kind of walk me through that story, step by step?
- How did it-- what were those first discussions?
- And how did that then grow into what eventually
- became AIDS Rochester?
- JACKIE NUDD: There was a great deal of discussions
- on Sue's front porch.
- And then we started meeting at various places
- throughout the community.
- And there was a wide variety of people that were interested.
- There was several of the fellows working the bars,
- and were concerned about the impact on the businesses that
- serve the gay community.
- So there was a wide variety of people involved.
- And we decided that we were going to-- the only effective
- way to do it was to form a not-for-profit organization
- that we could really put to work for us.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: You were part of those initial porch meetings,
- over at Sue's house?
- JACKIE NUDD: Yeah.
- Eventually.
- I had to make the decision whether to continue
- to serve as President of the Gay Alliance,
- because I knew there was going to be a compromise.
- And so I decided that AIDS was the bigger threat.
- And I resigned and applied for the job of Executive Director.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
- I still want to get a little bit of sense of--
- describe for me what it was like, sitting on this porch,
- talking to people.
- And talk to me about what some of the discussions were about.
- What was really the main concern, other
- than trying to figure out what this disease is at the time?
- JACKIE NUDD: Right.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: What was the main goal of eventually where
- you guys had made the decision to form
- a nonprofit organization?
- I'm just trying to get a sense of what those discussions were
- like.
- What was it like sitting on Sue's porch,
- with all of the other people, discussing
- this new dreaded thing that had just came upon us.
- JACKIE NUDD: Well there was panic.
- And what it was going to do to the gay community,
- and the gay men that--
- and it was interesting that, for the first time,
- the Rochester gay community is very
- different than many communities across the country,
- that lesbians and gay men worked side-by-side.
- And we were as much concerned about our gay brothers
- as we were--
- even though we were not a risk group.
- So there was a lot of challenges about which direction
- we wanted to go, and there were mixed ideas about what
- our mission statement was going to be.
- Were we going to serve just the gay community?
- And we decided that the real thing was the disease.
- That we were going to fight the disease.
- And the way to do that was serve everybody.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Good.
- So the decision's made.
- Let's form a nonprofit organization.
- Let's call it AIDS Rochester.
- Talk to me about what some of the initial challenges
- were in getting this organization up and running?
- JACKIE NUDD: Well, first of all, we
- had to come up with the money to generate--
- so we held fundraisers to get the money together,
- because we couldn't-- the Gay Alliance at that time had two
- nickels to rub together, and that was about the extent
- of that.
- So we did some fund raising to generate
- the money that we needed to do to do the corporation.
- And there was a lot of discussion about what
- the name was going to be.
- So we decided that the simplest thing was just
- to start out with AIDS and then Rochester, Incorporated.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Can you talk to me about some of the people
- that you were working with in those early days, some
- of-- like Sue, and some of the other people
- that were on that porch?
- Do you remember?
- JACKIE NUDD: Oh, I remember some of them.
- There was Randy, and--
- oh, gosh.
- I can't think of the--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: It's OK.
- Was Bill Valenti there?
- JACKIE NUDD: No.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: No?
- JACKIE NUDD: He was--
- he came later.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
- It doesn't really matter.
- So you've got this organization going, started.
- JACKIE NUDD: Um-hm.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: And you found a name for it.
- JACKIE NUDD: Right.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: What was some of the community's reaction?
- And I don't mean just the gay community,
- but the community as a whole for this AIDS Rochester
- organization.
- Did you find the community as a whole as being very supportive?
- Or were there some--
- JACKIE NUDD: There were some questions.
- And they didn't know that we were
- going to serve the whole entire community.
- So I think they thought initially it was just
- another gay organization.
- And once we did outreach to the Black community,
- and Hispanic community, and the drug culture,
- then we started getting more positive reaction
- from the community.
- But there was never a negative response
- from the general community.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So moving into it,
- AIDS Rochester really started taking off pretty quickly.
- JACKIE NUDD: Yes, it did.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Talk to me about that.
- Talk to me about the day-to-day activities at AIDS Rochester.
- What were the things that you were
- providing for the community?
- And what were you really trying to achieve?
- JACKIE NUDD: Well, we knew we were not
- going to beat the disease, so we wanted
- to make it the best we could, for those
- who came down with it, that they could
- have the best quality of life.
- And so we started a food cupboard, because people,
- in the days back then, they walked in the door
- and they were diagnosed, we knew they had maybe three
- to six months to live.
- So we were primarily invested in making their quality of life
- the best we could.
- So we trained people.
- And developed a training program that
- was adapted by people across the country
- as a model of training volunteers.
- We did a weekend training program.
- We developed a housing project, so that people with AIDS,
- they got thrown out of their apartments,
- and because they couldn't work, that they'd
- have a place to live.
- The one condition was that they couldn't use drugs or drinking
- on the property.
- So day-to-day, it was chaotic, at best.
- We were doing educational outreach to the trained
- medical personnel, and I think I'm probably
- the only lay person that ever did grand rounds at Rochester,
- University of Rochester.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, I want to talk to you about that.
- The relationship of AIDS Rochester
- with some of the local hospitals, the universities,
- what were you doing to really get out there in the community?
- JACKIE NUDD: I was very lucky to have a very good Director
- of Education.
- And he put together a program that he and I used to do.
- And he trained volunteers to do it, also.
- And so we had an active outreach program to all of the-- we
- volunteered to come in and train staff in the hospitals.
- And the fire departments, the paramedics
- were trying to determine the person's orientation
- before they took care of them.
- So we did outreach to the fire department.
- I was on a first name basis with Gordie Urlacher,
- of the police department.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, let's not rush through that.
- Let's expand on that a little bit.
- Talk to me a little bit about the issues
- with firemen, or paramedics, that they
- were having during those early days of AIDS.
- What were their fears?
- And what were you doing from AIDS Rochester
- trying to educate them?
- JACKIE NUDD: We put together an educational program, telling
- people, don't try to determine a person's orientation before you
- take care of them.
- Just use universal precautions.
- We were preaching universal precautions
- long before the CDC ever came up with it.
- And telling people to just use-- you
- know, who wants to go pawing through somebody else's blood
- anyway, without taking precautions?
- So it was-- we did police departments, fire departments,
- and--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
- I just lost it--
- I lost my last question here.
- It'll come back to me in a second.
- Can you talk to me a little bit about the growth
- of AIDS Rochester over the course of the years
- that you were there?
- And how it started becoming really this organization
- that was providing a lot of services
- to a lot of different agencies and such.
- JACKIE NUDD: Right.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Did you ever expect it to grow that big?
- JACKIE NUDD: No.
- We were overwhelmed at one point.
- Daily, the people were coming in infected,
- and it was really overwhelming, that the numbers that grew,
- and the families that got involved.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, talk to me a little bit about what
- I can only assume to be a little bit emotionally
- taxing, that you've got all these people coming
- through your doors now.
- People infected with AIDS.
- Family members looking for information
- on how to deal with someone who may be infected with AIDS.
- And how did you deal with that emotionally?
- JACKIE NUDD: We were very supportive of one another,
- because the social workers that worked for me in the Service
- Department really had relationships
- with all these people.
- And we made a practice of going to the funerals,
- so that we had some closure.
- But I started out, going back to your last question,
- I started out with one part-time secretary, and myself.
- That was it.
- And six years later when I left, we had eighteen employees,
- and the first budget I had was thirty thousand dollars.
- And when I left six years later, it was six hundred
- thousand dollars.
- And we had-- it just exploded.
- But we never put our comfort or anything
- before the care of the people.
- That was always our primary mission.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.
- Can you talk to me a little bit--
- I'm just going to step back a little bit.
- You mentioned your Director of Education.
- JACKIE NUDD: Um-hm.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Who was that?
- JACKIE NUDD: Ken Dorner.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Ken Dorner.
- Can you talk to me a little bit about him, and--
- JACKIE NUDD: Sure.
- He was a super educator.
- And he put together the volunteer training program.
- We worked on the curriculum for quite a while,
- before we got it down to where we could market it.
- And as-- people in Toronto came down
- and did a study of what we did.
- And one of the subjects we dealt with was
- death and dying, because that was so much a part of-- we
- had to prepare the volunteers to deal with that.
- And how do you deal with it.
- And it-- nobody ever went through that training
- that didn't come out the better the other side.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: You were right at the threshold when
- this hit Rochester.
- JACKIE NUDD: That's right.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: And I wonder if you
- could talk to me a little bit about the pulse
- of the community at that time?
- What the community as a whole, what were they thinking?
- Was Rochester unique in its response to the AIDS crisis?
- Compared to maybe other cities.
- What were the people out there talking about?
- And what were they really concerned about?
- JACKIE NUDD: Well, mostly, they were concerned
- about keeping themselves safe.
- But the general community responded positively
- to the work we were doing.
- We interacted with a lot of agencies--
- excuse me, can I get some water?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Please do.
- You know, I'm going to ask the question
- in a slightly simpler way.
- Compared to other cities across this nation,
- Rochester's response to the AIDS crisis was pretty unique.
- JACKIE NUDD: Yes, it was.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Can you speak to me about that?
- Can you speak to me about what you
- saw in regards to our response to this AIDS crisis?
- JACKIE NUDD: Well, as I mentioned before,
- one of the greatest responses was from the women's lesbian
- community.
- They pitched in and were just as actively involved in fund
- raising and volunteering their time as anybody else.
- And I think that is the number one
- difference about how the community at large responded.
- It was an exciting time.
- It was the worst of times.
- And it was the best of times.
- It pulled our community together as a united front.
- And it was-- the energy was unbelievable.
- For the first time, the Gay Alliance, and the bar owners,
- and everybody worked together in a common fight.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: That's another interesting point
- I want to touch on.
- Is that collaboration with all of the bar owners at that time.
- Because they really stepped up to the plate.
- JACKIE NUDD: They really did.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Talk to me a little bit about that.
- If you want to mention some of the bar owners specifically,
- that's fine.
- Because we've been talking with them, as well.
- But how important, and how fortunate,
- you were to have that kind of cooperation.
- JACKIE NUDD: Oh, absolutely.
- They were the basis of all of the fundraising events
- that we did.
- Usually happened in a gay bar.
- And in the past, the Alliance especially, there
- was a conflict with the bar owners.
- And they always saw the Alliance as something other
- than their friend.
- But when the AIDS epidemic hit, they
- opened their doors and hearts to all of us.
- And we just-- and they recognized
- the work we were doing.
- That was something.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Any special fond memories of that time?
- One big fundraiser that you remember specifically,
- or any one particular bar that really stepped up?
- JACKIE NUDD: Oh, yeah.
- The Forum did.
- With Arnie and his whole staff, two of them served on my board.
- And Randy was the Treasurer.
- And Mark was just a board member,
- but he was knee-deep in learning about the disease.
- And one night I got a phone call about one o'clock
- in the morning.
- And he was there with a patient with AIDS.
- And he said, you've got to come down and help me.
- I don't know what to do.
- So I got out of bed and went down,
- and met a charming young man.
- But that's the kind of things we responded to.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: It wasn't always a bed
- of roses at AIDS Rochester.
- JACKIE NUDD: No.
- We were always one dollar short.
- And two--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: You were a dollar short.
- I mean, ultimately, there was some issues there,
- where you stepped down.
- JACKIE NUDD: Um-hm.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Could you talk to me a little bit about that?
- JACKIE NUDD: Yes.
- There was a conflict between whether we
- were going to serve--
- it got to be the point where there was questions
- of whether we were going to serve the whole community,
- and did we want to get into the drug mess,
- and take on that responsibility.
- And we were doing outreach to the prostitutes on the street.
- And some of the board members didn't like that.
- And they thought I'd gotten too big for my britches.
- And maybe I had.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: But on the flip side of that,
- I want to ask you, what are you most proud of?
- JACKIE NUDD: My time serving as Executive Director.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Can you expand on that a little bit for me?
- In regards to not only just serving as Executive Director,
- but what you really did.
- JACKIE NUDD: I mean, it's safe in eight counties to have AIDS.
- There was a safe haven for everybody.
- They could come and be taken care of.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So--
- JACKIE NUDD: I also had the best staff.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.
- Many years from now, when future generations looking back
- in our history--
- JACKIE NUDD: Um-hm.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: --how do you want history
- to reflect that view in who you are, and what you've done?
- JACKIE NUDD: I tried.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: All right.
- I'm going to jump way, getting away from AIDS for the moment,
- because I didn't realize this until you mentioned it.
- I didn't realize that you were President of the Gay Alliance
- at one point.
- JACKIE NUDD: Yeah.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Can you talk to me a little bit about that?
- Talk me about what the Gay Alliance was like back then?
- What they were trying to do for this community?
- JACKIE NUDD: Well, when I took over,
- it was just coming out of a time when the Gay Alliance almost
- went down the tubes, because the people who
- had started the Gay Alliance years ago
- were thinking that we weren't living up
- to our mission statement.
- And they were going to pull out, and take the funds with them.
- So I think that the Gay Alliance was probably saved
- by Tom Mooney, the Executive Director of and President
- of the Chamber of Commerce, because we were going to--
- the board was convinced that we no longer had
- to stay in the shadows, in the back rooms, and alleys
- ways of life.
- And so we decided to have an annual dinner.
- And we decided that one of the best
- places to have it was at the Chamber of Commerce.
- So we applied.
- And they gave us approval.
- And then one night--
- so we went ahead and did all the planning for the first dinner.
- And I got a phone call from Tom Mooney
- at home, telling me that his staff had
- made a terrible mistake, and that we were not
- going to be able to use the Chamber of Commerce at all.
- So we filed a petition of discrimination against them.
- And we won.
- And it ignited the whole community.
- Yve Skeet and I went to have a meeting with Tom Mooney
- to decide what happened, and why we weren't acceptable.
- And he said that, "The community cannot think that the Chamber
- of Commerce supports you people."
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Hm.
- So ultimately did you wind up having the dinner there?
- JACKIE NUDD: No.
- We held it at the Top of the Plaza,
- and had a wonderful time.
- But what we did get was a decision
- by the Division of Human Rights of New York State
- that they could not discriminate against any other group.
- And so two years later, the Musical Director
- of the Gay Men's Chorus welcomed all of us
- at the Chamber of Commerce building
- for their Christmas concert.
- And that was a thrill.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Good.
- Thank you very much.
- JACKIE NUDD: You're welcome.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Or maybe not.
- OK.
- What do you think?
- CREW: (unintelligible).
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
- Yeah.
- CREW: (unintelligible).
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, that's a good question.
- He asked a good question here.
- Any surprises in your term with either the Gay Alliance or AIDS
- Rochester in regards to people who have came to your support?
- Someone in the community who you may not have thought
- would be supportive, but really stepped up to the plate.
- Or vise versa, anybody you really
- thought you could rely on, but didn't support you?
- JACKIE NUDD: Yeah.
- There were several of those that I was disappointed in,
- that did not support me.
- But, for the most part, the response
- I got from other people, the Mayor, Tom Ryan,
- was very supportive of me, because he
- knew that whenever I asked him for anything,
- it was for the people that I cared about, not--
- and took care of.
- Not the political strength that people viewed me as having.
- This political clout.
- And I think that's one of the things that
- may have led to my downfall.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.
- Let me get a little personal with you.
- When you stepped down from AIDS Rochester,
- that had to be a pretty tough thing for you, emotionally.
- JACKIE NUDD: Oh, gosh.
- Yes.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Can you talk to me a little bit about that?
- I mean what was--
- I mean we saw you on the news.
- We saw you with the sound bytes, with the news cameras,
- and all that.
- And that was that Jackie Nudd.
- But I'm more Interested in what was going on
- with you, personally, and emotionally,
- during those tough times.
- JACKIE NUDD: It was most painful because AIDS Rochester had
- become a twenty-four-hour day.
- It wasn't you went home--
- Mary Lou and I got to the point where we couldn't go out
- to dinner, because pretty soon a person would pull up the chair,
- and say, "I know you're not working right now,
- but I only have a couple of questions to ask you."
- So personal life was almost nonexistent.
- But it was a huge emptiness that I was experiencing.
- And one of betrayal.
- Because I had always put AIDS Rochester first.
- What was best for AIDS Rochester.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: And if you look at where AIDS Rochester is now.
- They merged together with CHN and that.
- Do you feel good about it?
- JACKIE NUDD: Yeah.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Because you were responsible for getting
- that started.
- JACKIE NUDD: Yeah.
- As long as it's still doing the stuff we needed to do.
- And providing services, that's what it was all about.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: All right.
- Thanks.
- JACKIE NUDD: You're welcome.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Wright's going to speak.
- WRIGHT: I have a question.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: You have a question.
- Everybody's got questions.
- WRIGHT: Jackie, before you got involved in the Alliance,
- and you were at Kodak, what was it like to work
- at Eastman Kodak at that time.
- Do you remember?
- JACKIE NUDD: Oh, yeah.
- I was so far in the closet, you couldn't--
- CREW: If you could-- if you could ask her the--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.
- You know, I'll ask you the question--
- JACKIE NUDD: OK.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: --to make sure you look at me.
- Yeah, before getting with the Gay
- Alliance, a gay political organization, basically.
- You were working in the corporate world.
- Correct?
- JACKIE NUDD: Yes.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Talk to me about the corporate environment
- in Rochester at that time for gays and lesbians.
- JACKIE NUDD: Well, I don't know about others,
- but I was so far in the closet, you couldn't even see me.
- It was-- gays were not viewed--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
- I need to pull it back.
- You need to set it up for me.
- Because the audience for this documentary
- is not going to see me or hear my questions.
- So you need to kind of set up the fact,
- "You know, when I was with Kodak--"
- JACKIE NUDD: OK.
- When I was working at Kodak, I was so far in the closet
- that gays were just made fun of in the workforce.
- And I was in the big bullpen, and it was just
- a typical family, industrial environment.
- And gays were something that you poke fun at.
- You'd tell the dirty gay jokes, and that kind of thing.
- So, for me to come out and be politically active,
- while I was still working there, was something unheard of.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
- What prompted you or drove you to make that choice?
- JACKIE NUDD: I decided I didn't like the closet.
- And that I'd done nothing usual, or that bad, just being myself.
- And so I decided that people are going to have
- to accept me for who I am.
- And I didn't like what was going on with the negative stuff that
- was going on against the gay community at that time.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Sorry.
- You guys need to keep it down a little bit.
- I can hear you.
- Just about-- the lady in what?
- WRIGHT: White.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: The Lady in White?
- JACKIE NUDD: Oh, yeah.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Can you tell me about The Lady in White,
- please?
- JACKIE NUDD: Sure.
- When I was Executive Director of AIDS Rochester,
- I always responded to every phone call
- that came in, because I never knew who was going to do what,
- or what the situation was.
- So I received a message from my administrative assistant
- one day that a Hollywood producer
- wanted to do a fundraiser for AIDS Rochester.
- And I called him back in California.
- And it was Frank LaLoggia, who produced, and directed,
- and wrote The Lady in White.
- And so he wanted to do a joint fundraiser for a Eastman Kodak
- house and AIDS Rochester.
- So in six weeks, we put together a world premiere.
- And I had so many gay men with white gloves.
- And we had a string quartet that played at halftime.
- And it was quite an event that we pulled off
- in just six weeks.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: That was the premier of The Lady in White
- at the Dryden theater, right?
- JACKIE NUDD: Right.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.
- OK.
- Good.
- Alright.
- Any more questions?
- So I guess not.
- Alright.
- I'll let you off the hook.
- JACKIE NUDD: OK.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Let Brian get that microphone off of you.