Video Interview, Nicholas Williams, February 22, 2013
- KEVIN INDOVINO: First, give me the correct spelling
- of your first and last name as how you
- want it to appear on screen.
- NICHOLAS WILLIAMS: First name, N-I-C-H-O-L-A-S, last name,
- W-I-L-L-I-A-M-S.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, and if were to title you, former director?
- NICHOLAS WILLIAMS: Former artistic director
- of the Rochester Gay Men's Chorus.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So let's start then.
- Start from the beginning.
- How did the Gay Men's Chorus get formed, and more importantly,
- why?
- Why was this such a great idea to start this up?
- NICHOLAS WILLIAMS: The Gay Men's Chorus
- began in 1982 in Rochester.
- In 1981 the San Francisco Gay Men's Chorus
- did a cross-country trip where they traveled around the United
- States performing.
- And a man who was in Madison, Wisconsin
- went to one of their performances
- and started a chorus in Madison, Wisconsin.
- His partner, who was in school, moved to Rochester and so,
- consequently, he did.
- So at that point, Kent Peterson, who was this man,
- chose to begin a chorus here in Rochester.
- And he went to the Gay Alliance, where he met David Knoll.
- And David Knoll had been pushing to have
- a Gay Men's chorus in Rochester for a number of years.
- And so the two of them got together and actually put up
- little flyers all around the Monroe Avenue
- area, which is where the Gay Alliance was centered.
- And sometime in November--
- I forget which night--
- five men came together and started singing.
- Why did we come together to start singing?
- I think for a sense of community for ourselves was probably
- the major reason why we came together to start singing.
- But as we started doing it and as we started growing,
- we also realized that there was a very strong political nature
- to the group, that people did not know who gay people were
- back in the 80s.
- You always talked about them in the third person.
- They are.
- It's them.
- And who are they?
- Who are them?
- And so the Gay Men's Chorus put a face
- on who gay men were in the city of Rochester.
- So when people came to the concert,
- they were able to say, oh, that's what they look like.
- That's what they sound like.
- That's what they're interested in.
- This is what a gay man might be.
- So part of our message was to then provide what is a gay man.
- And so we would make that as part of the shows
- that we will put together.
- Obviously, you can't do everyone every time
- and you can't do every aspect of the gay society,
- but you certainly try to put on many diverse segments of who
- the gay population is within Rochester.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I want to kind of jump back a little bit
- and hit some of these points.
- When those first five men came together--
- even before then, there was a discussion
- about forming a Gay Men's Chorus for Rochester--
- what were those conversations?
- What was the why factor?
- Why should we do this?
- Why do we want to do this?
- NICHOLAS WILLIAMS: I think the why factor was really more
- selfish.
- Here were a couple of people who were musicians,
- who wanted to have a musical outlet,
- and they wanted to have a musical outlet
- with different and fellow gay men so that you could bond
- and become one.
- So I think, socially, it began more for social reasons.
- It didn't necessarily begin for any great cause
- except for our own benefits of creating music
- and our own enjoyment of creating music.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: But then, at some point it evolved.
- Or where those conversations talking about visibility?
- NICHOLAS WILLIAMS: Correct.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Talk to me a little bit more
- about how it started to evolve towards that mission.
- NICHOLAS WILLIAMS: Part of the process
- of the growth of our GMC was to figure out
- what we wanted to be within the city of Rochester
- and what our niche in the city of Rochester was going to be.
- We obviously knew that we were never
- going to equal the large choirs who do
- these major masterworks, etc.
- That was just not the space that we really wanted to fill.
- The men who sang wanted a strong social aspect.
- So we had to accommodate the strong social aspect
- of what they wanted.
- But there was also a lot of people
- who were very involved in the gay movement in Rochester
- in the early 80s who were involved in the Gay Men's
- Chorus.
- And so those agendas crossed and started to merge.
- We had many long conversations as a group about, A,
- do we want the word gay in our name.
- And it was very apparent from the beginning
- the membership wanted the word gay in the name
- so that people knew we were the Gay Men's Chorus,
- not just a men's chorus.
- There was a strong need for people to be visible,
- for people to be out.
- And that came from within the membership,
- that they wanted to put this forward.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Let's talk again a little bit more
- about that sense of community, that particularly for me
- was just coming out of the mid-80s.
- I remember looking at the Gay Men's Chorus
- and thinking, OK, a lot of different people.
- So from your perspective, what were you
- seeing, what were you realizing from the chorus' point of view
- and what you were doing for that sense of community as a whole?
- Did that question even make any sense?
- NICHOLAS WILLIAMS: No, I was going
- to ask you to ask the question again.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So beyond providing
- that sense of gay community for chorus men themselves,
- I think it went beyond that.
- I think it had an impact and influence
- on the entire gay community in Rochester.
- Even though I personally wasn't singing with the chorus,
- there was some connection that I, as a community member,
- was feeling with you guys.
- NICHOLAS WILLIAMS: So how did it relate to the rest of the--
- I'm not sure that I can answer that question.
- I think that you would be a better person
- to answer that question than I would be.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: That's why I'm sitting in this chair.
- NICHOLAS WILLIAMS: I know.
- So I mean, I can tell you from the national view point.
- We became involved in the National Alliance of Gay
- Choruses-- actually the International Alliance
- of Gay Choruses in '85.
- We actually started the process in '83.
- We went to our first--
- they had yearly conventions, basically, of leadership roles
- and how to develop a choir.
- And we started going to those conventions in '85.
- So you certainly got the national political agenda
- of what gay choruses could do because you're
- talking with the San Francisco Gay Men's Chorus, the New York
- City Gay Men's Chorus, the Seattle Men's Chorus.
- You're talking with these huge choirs of over 150 men who come
- together, and you're also talking with some
- of the grassroots really die-hard formed lesbian
- choirs--
- Muse out of Cincinnati--
- lordy, I can't think of the other one.
- Isn't that horrible because it's been a while.
- But here were these people who had been so involved
- in the gay movement through music for generations--
- I mean, more the women for generations than the men
- because the men's choral movement really didn't
- start till the early 80s.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So where did you see your place
- in the gay movement?
- You kind of answered it.
- I'm just kind of--
- NICHOLAS WILLIAMS: Our place was to show the community what
- a gay man was.
- So we tried to deal with stereotypes.
- I wanted to deal with the leather stereotype.
- I wanted to deal with the drag queen stereotype.
- I wanted to take all of those stereotypes
- and put them into a show, and then become normal again.
- Because what is a gay man?
- A gay man is a normal human being.
- Yes, we like to play with leather, some of us.
- Some of us like to play with drag queen.
- Some of us like to go elsewhere.
- But when you come down to the basics,
- we're just a bunch of guys who like to get together.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: The chorus wasn't just getting up there
- and doing their spring concerts--
- NICHOLAS WILLIAMS: No.
- No.
- The chorus--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: You were engaged with this community.
- NICHOLAS WILLIAMS: The chorus was
- trying to create a sense of community
- within the city of Rochester.
- When you're up there and you have the city of Rochester,
- one of the things you want to do is
- to develop not only your audience but also--
- I don't know where I'm going with this--
- we provided a space for gay people to come together
- and to celebrate who they were as a human being.
- So as an audience member, you could come into this space,
- you could look at the stage, and you could finally say,
- this is a place where I can be gay.
- I don't have to hide.
- I don't have to be someone else.
- So we really did provide a sanctified space
- for the city of Rochester general population.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Where there any significant challenges
- in getting the chorus formed?
- I mean, you started out with five men.
- But five men who liked to get together to see sing
- to a the group of thirty-five, 40--
- NICHOLAS WILLIAMS: That's pretty where we've been.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Who are now this very recognized community
- cultural entity.
- What were some of the hurdles in getting there?
- NICHOLAS WILLIAMS: Coming out.
- I mean, coming out is still a process that we will always
- be dealing with.
- You have so many different varied levels
- of where people want to be individually
- and that you have to deal with all of that in a performance
- medium.
- When Channel 8 came to videotape us for taping on TV,
- we had the group of people who were OK and then on the side
- we had the group of people singing
- who didn't want to be on TV.
- So how do you deal with that coming out process?
- When we got our tax exempt status,
- we had to go into Kmart, into Jo Ann Fabric, wherever
- we were shopping, and we had to go up and say,
- I have a 503c tax status.
- Well, who are you?
- We're the Rochester Gay Men's Chorus.
- And of course back in those days,
- the typical reaction was, you're the what?
- And then we'd say, we're the Rochester Gay Men's Chorus.
- And you'd start to draw an audience of people
- who would be watching you fill out your tax exempt status.
- And so you're constantly coming out.
- When you're talking with your friends,
- well, I sing with a chorus.
- Well, which chorus?
- And well, how do you answer that?
- Well, I sing with the Gay Men's Chorus.
- And so, it continually involves you reaching and finding
- new comfort zones for yourself.
- And I certainly went through a lot of those comfort zone
- changes in my tenure there because I
- was in public schools.
- I taught high school and elementary school
- for all the years that I was doing that.
- And how do I develop a program there and keep the Gay Men's
- Chorus going because obviously, if you're a guy in high school,
- being gay is not cool.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: How did you do that?
- Were you taking a risk?
- NICHOLAS WILLIAMS: Oh, very much so.
- Back in-- was it '85 or '86--
- the California did the Proposition 13
- where they were saying that gay people no longer have a right
- to teach in schools.
- And they actually made that as a bill to be
- passed by the general public.
- And it was defeated.
- But it was that attitude, if you were gay,
- could you be a teacher.
- So many gay people just stayed in the closet and hid.
- And here I am, now leading the Rochester Gay Men's Chorus
- that's going out and being very public
- and I'm also teaching in a public school.
- So that took a long time for me to find,
- and I finally think that the separation of church and state
- I just didn't talk about RGMC at school.
- I told all of the administration.
- I told everyone that was involved that I was doing this.
- So I was very upfront with my administration,
- that I was doing this, I was gay.
- When I left the Gay Men's Chorus,
- I had people come up to me and say, how can you do that.
- You're famous.
- You're supposed to be there.
- And I thought, well, life changes.
- So it was interesting.
- As they changed and they became more accepting--
- because I never allowed anything to interfere with my teaching.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Continue talking a little
- about community engagement and the chorus being
- engaged with the community, more like a fact of giving back.
- NICHOLAS WILLIAMS: Us giving back to the community?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, in terms of singing and fundraising
- events for AIDS awareness or just fundraising Gay Pride
- events.
- NICHOLAS WILLIAMS: Oh, that was a hard one.
- Part of the joys and part of the pains
- of dealing with the Gay Men's Chorus
- is you're dealing with a group of people who are very busy.
- And so we would get these requests to sing at the picnic,
- to sing at AIDS fundraisers, to sing x event,
- to sing at y event.
- And we really tried very--
- we really tried to get there because, A, we wanted to do it,
- B, we felt there was an obligation
- to be there, to help present more of a gay diversity.
- But then there were times when you would go
- and you would have seven people out of thirty-five that
- show up because of schedules.
- And it was always--
- yes, we wanted to do it.
- But could we do it as effectively as we were there?
- Part of our mission--
- and we really did put this in our mission statement--
- is that we wanted to promote what a gay individual was
- to society.
- So part of our mission as a chorus
- was to go out into the community and, in many ways as we could,
- to perform, to sing, to show what was going on.
- We went to Buffalo when the Buffalo game Gay Men's Chorus
- was beginning.
- And we did an official concert to get them started.
- We went to Syracuse when the Syracuse Gay and Lesbian
- Chorus was starting.
- And we did an official concert there to help them get started.
- We made a strong effort.
- Were we always successful?
- I don't know.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: This might be a very touchy question
- because the chorus was getting started
- and growing through the whole AIDS crisis,
- through the climax of the AIDS climax.
- NICHOLAS WILLIAMS: Very much so.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, I remember bringing you guys up
- to sing at the AIDS Remembrance Garden a couple times.
- But I also know you lost a few of your own chorus members.
- NICHOLAS WILLIAMS: Yes.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Can you talk to me a little bit about that?
- Being there but doing what the chorus
- was able to do to help get through that
- or help the challenges that you were confronted with.
- NICHOLAS WILLIAMS: When we were dealing with the initial AIDS
- crisis, I think the way that we did
- it is we did it through song.
- There were so many people-- and I'm talking internationally
- because, at that point, we were heavily
- invested in the International Association of Choruses, which
- is called Gala.
- So as a community-- and I'm thinking a global community--
- we were all talking about, how do we deal with this,
- how do we do this.
- And the obvious answer is you deal with your song choices.
- I mean, I remember pulling-- there
- was a song called "Eulogy," which
- was a beautiful piece of music.
- But it talked literally about people dying and the fact
- that they were dead and no longer with us
- and how do you cope with that in your day to day existence.
- San Francisco put together this wonderful group
- of song called "Naked Man," and one of them
- was "Dance on your Grave."
- And it was this incredible song of anger that says,
- you were taken from me.
- You died, and you're there.
- And I'm so angry at the rest of society for not helping you.
- I'm going to sit here.
- I'm going to dance on your grave, A,
- in celebration of who you were but also in anger
- at society for not helping, for not being there.
- So it's really through music that we coped.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So you were at the beginning.
- You stepped down in 2006.
- NICHOLAS WILLIAMS: Correct.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: How has the chorus evolved
- over its thirty-five years now?
- NICHOLAS WILLIAMS: It is now--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: --Thirty five years.
- What you see in how the chorus has evolved over the years,
- and is it still pretty much the same, that community engagement
- and the commitment?
- Or have things changed a little bit?
- NICHOLAS WILLIAMS: I think that the major focus of the chorus
- is still the same, the sense that we
- are a community, the sense that we are providing a community,
- not only for the singing members,
- but also for the audience members to come together.
- I think that hasn't ever changed.
- I think, even in the 90s and in the 2000s,
- gay people still need a place to come together
- to celebrate who they are.
- We are so involved in the straight community in our day
- to day lives that we often forget
- who we are as human beings and what
- our joys are that are different from the straight society.
- And to come together in a space where people can celebrate
- their gayness and people can celebrate all the things
- that make them who they are, I think is a very special gift.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Same kind of question,
- but how would have the audiences changes over the years?
- NICHOLAS WILLIAMS: Oh, the audience--
- well, initially the audience was the movers and shakers
- of the Rochester area because the people who
- came to the Gay Men's chorus were
- the people who were heavily involved in the gay community.
- So you would have Tim Mains who was there.
- You'd have Thomas Warfield.
- You'd have people who are very involved in the gay community,
- and then you started getting the parents coming in.
- And so mom and dad would come along,
- and they'd drag Aunt June and Uncle Fred.
- And so you started to get more of a family member group.
- And I think that that still is the truth that you
- get a lot of family members.
- But you also get that teenager who's just coming out,
- and they don't know who they are.
- And they need a place to figure out
- and to bounce what they think they are against a reality.
- And when you see something like the Gay Men's Chorus,
- they must be gay men.
- So you're bouncing who you are against what you see on stage.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, at this past holiday concert,
- I recognized immediately how different the audience
- was compared to ten years ago.
- Much more diverse, much more gay-straight,
- all over the place.
- And that was fun to see.
- NICHOLAS WILLIAMS: It's no longer just the gay audience
- membership.
- I was odd because I just liked music.
- But back in the 70s, the late 70s,
- I would go to Meg Christensen, Chris Williamson, all
- those big lesbian artists.
- And I would be the only man in the sea
- of lesbians enjoying the music.
- And initially, I think that that's what it was like.
- You were the only straight person--
- the token straight person in the audience.
- And now it's just a mix of everybody.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: What are some of your fondest memories?
- NICHOLAS WILLIAMS: Fondest memories?
- 1985, singing at the Chamber of Commerce.
- The Chamber of Commerce was not allowed for gay groups
- to use because of the man who ran the Chamber of Commerce
- at that point, and the city of Rochester
- did a nondiscrimination clause that they adopted which
- allowed us to go in there.
- But we were not allowed to use the Chamber of Commerce's name
- in our advertising. .
- We could only use the address.
- And so when we finally got to that concert
- and we could say welcome to the Chamber of Commerce--
- and it was a very politically astute audience--
- the audience just erupted, and that was
- the beginning of the concert.
- In 1986, going to Minneapolis, for our very first Gay
- Chorus Convention where we performed
- for an international audience for the first time.
- And we're a small chorus.
- thirty-five to forty is not a large chorus.
- It's a small chorus.
- And here we were three years old, four years old going,
- and we took almost the entire membership.
- And we get there and we're hearing this incredible music
- night after night, and we were on the very last performance.
- And by the time you got to that performance,
- I was peeing in my pants, trying to figure out
- if we were going to be good enough to perform.
- And we went out on stage.
- We were the second to last chorus
- to perform in this festival, and the love and the joy
- that that audience gave you was incredible
- and the fact that we--
- that's the concert we introduced sign language.
- And we actually signed as a chorus.
- And going out afterwards into this big lobby area
- and having everybody trying to figure out how to sign--
- we did "Kumbaya."
- And here they are trying to sign "Kumbaya"
- because it was such a special moment for them as an audience.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: How significant is it that,
- through your chorus, you're putting
- Rochester on the map nationally and even internationally?
- NICHOLAS WILLIAMS: How significant is it?
- I worked very hard to do that.
- That was a very conscious choice on my end.
- I was part of the board of directors of Gala
- from '87 to 1990.
- So I was on the directorship to promote gay choirs.
- I traveled around the nation talking with gay choirs,
- how to develop them, how to make them grow,
- what are the weak areas, what are the areas you need to do
- to get them off their feet.
- I did a lot of work in that venue.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So when future generations look back
- on the Gay Men's Chorus-- and hopefully,
- they're still singing--
- how do you want history to reflect who the group is
- and what the group is?
- What should we as a community be more proud of on what
- the chorus has done?
- NICHOLAS WILLIAMS: Hopefully, it will always go back to music.
- I mean, that would be my dream and my goal--
- is that people will remember that it
- was a good, musical event and that it was spiritual--
- a friend of mine says this.
- When you go to a concert, you want to laugh, you want to cry,
- you want to feel good.
- So you want to deal with the anger that's
- in the gay community.
- You want to deal with that joy.
- But you also want to celebrate when being gay is all about.
- So how do I want history to remember us?
- That we were able to do that in a concert format
- and still make good music.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Let me tug at your heartstrings for just
- a second here.
- Being at those national concerts--events--
- up against a 150-member chorus at San Francisco, whatever--
- talk to me, describe for me emotionally how that felt,
- that experience--
- coming to the realization that you are now
- being recognized and respected nationally as a top chorus
- in the country.
- NICHOLAS WILLIAMS: Well, that took a while.
- There's so much fear.
- And I think that's just your ego talking
- because you go to these conferences
- and you see these huge choirs.
- And they have these incredible sound and remarkable just
- musical things that they can do.
- And then you realize that, A, most
- of the people in that chorus are auditioned.
- And then here you walk in with a group
- of thirty-five non-auditioned members.
- And you're saying, OK, we're a hodgepodge.
- Let's pull up our pants and do this sort of group.
- How are we going to do that?
- And it's just training the guys.
- And it's keeping your eye sight on what's there.
- So you walk in with a lot of fear.
- And then when people celebrate what you've done,
- it becomes a euphoria.
- I mean, it's going to your very first huge Gay Pride experience
- is all I can equate it to.
- When suddenly you realize that you
- are a pebble in this ocean of being gay
- and what a joyous spot it is to be that pebble
- and to look around you and to see the whole world
- is filled with gay things.
- And you realize that your pebble might
- be a mountain at your house, but you're really
- just that little pebble and just to celebrate
- the ocean washing over you.
- I don't know if that makes any sense.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: It leads me just to one last question, then.
- What does it say about, not only about the Rochester Gay Men's
- Chorus, but Rochester community as a whole that we have,
- one, a Gay Men's Chorus to begin with-- two,
- that they have the courage to go up against 150-member chorus.
- There's something in there about who we are here in Rochester
- that we support the Gay Men's Chorus,
- but not only support Gay Men's Chorus locally, but be
- willing to put it out front nationally.
- NICHOLAS WILLIAMS: We got a lot of strong people
- who really want to make a difference
- in this world in Rochester.
- And that's one of the unique things about Rochester
- as a city, is that you don't have just lambs following.
- But you have a lot of people who are very strong leaders
- in this town.
- And because of that, you pull together
- a group of almost any gay people and you're
- bound to have somebody who wants to make
- a difference in this world.
- And so you put them together and dynamic things happen.
- And I think that's part of the reasons I like Rochester.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: And a great way to just end it.
- Thank you.
- Yes?
- EVELYN BAILEY: The Rochettes?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: The Rochettes.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Why did the Gay Men's Chorus decide to create
- the group within the group -- why The Rochettes?
- NICHOLAS WILLIAMS: Oh my god.
- That's such an ego answer for me.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So pretend that I asked that question.
- Talk to me about The Rochettes.
- NICHOLAS WILLIAMS: OK, the Rochettes started for me.
- We went to this conference in '86,
- and the Seattle Men's Chorus had a group called the Emerald City
- Stompers.
- And so in the middle of their number, this group of people
- come out and start tap dancing in front of the chorus
- as they're singing this song.
- And I just about peed my pants.
- I loved it.
- So I thought, well, we really need
- to have some tap dancing people in Rochester.
- So I came home-- and we were doing a show working
- with Jerry Algozer at the time.
- And I said this to Jerry, and he said, well,
- we'll get in contact with Kayla Allen, who's
- a local choreographer.
- So find your people who want to tap.
- And I'll get her, and we'll make it happen.
- So we went to Kayla Allen, and here is
- a group of guys who had never tap danced.
- And we said, in six weeks, we want to perform a tap number.
- And she made it happen, and I did not perform in that
- because I thought, well, as director I really shouldn't.
- But after that first one, I just said, sorry guys.
- And I just started tapping.
- So I was very egocentric on that.
- What can I say?
- I mean, I don't think I was the only one who felt that.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: But the Rochettes
- became a hallmark of the Gay Men's Chorus.
- NICHOLAS WILLIAMS: Yes.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I mean, you would go to a Gay Men's Chorus
- now and expect to see the Rochettes.
- NICHOLAS WILLIAMS: That's very true,
- and they're aware of that.
- And I think they like that, actually.
- And Erica, who's now doing the choreography,
- is just a wonderful woman who is very creative.
- And she really puts together some fun stuff.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Good.
- I actually studied with Kayla myself.
- NICHOLAS WILLIAMS: Did you really?
- CREW: The inclusiveness of the Gay Men's Chorus
- and your ability to bring to the community in performance
- like drag queens and other--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, we talked about that.
- NICHOLAS WILLIAMS: What you didn't hit on
- was the choice of music to include diversity.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, but we talked
- about the importance of having a diverse music repertoire.
- NICHOLAS WILLIAMS: Part of representing a gay community
- is you have to represent the different fractions within it,
- and you do that by your choice of music.
- So we spent a lot of time researching women's music.
- Who were these lesbian performers,
- and how could we pull them into it?
- When we were talking discrimination,
- we would often go into African-American music
- and pull that into the concert format
- to show how other people have dealt with discrimination
- and how that affects us because those feelings are
- the same regardless of how we're doing it.
- When we wanted to do something with--
- oh, lordy, some form of--
- I can't think of a word.
- When you a physical deformity--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: A disability.
- NICHOLAS WILLIAMS: You know you have to find
- techs that deal with that.
- And then you're then able to put that into a format
- and make it happen.
- So you really can.
- That was part of the fun, is you have a group of people getting
- together and say, all right, what do we want to do
- and how do we want to show Rochester the diversity that's
- on there, and how do you pull together this music.
- That was really always the joy.
- I enjoyed that.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I want you to set up
- for me what you just said.
- It sounded like-- you look at any period in history wherever
- there was oppression--
- NICHOLAS WILLIAMS: There was music.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: There was always music.
- There was always song.
- NICHOLAS WILLIAMS: Throughout history, whenever there was--
- I'll just repeat your words.
- Throughout history, when there was oppression,
- when there were the things that were going on,
- people always went to song.
- And they used that as a form of, not only unifying
- who they were, but also to show the world what they were
- feeling and how this oppression was affecting them,
- how it was affecting their families,
- how it was affecting the community they lived in.
- Song has always been part of that and always will be.
- It's who we are as a human experience.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Perfect.
- Anything else?
- Ok.
- (unintelligible)
- NICHOLAS WILLIAMS: Oh, that was a fun one.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: If you know we're openly the public face
- of what a gay man is.
- How do you then change how you carry yourself.
- What do you stop?
- What do you not do?
- What do you do?
- I just asked you a question.
- NICHOLAS WILLIAMS: So, yeah.
- So when you're going around Rochester,
- I think I still am in many ways a public face of a gay person
- in the city of Rochester.
- And I can't tell you how many times this person comes up
- to me who I may have met and I don't remember them
- and they say, oh, you're Nick Williams--
- like you're in the airport going someplace,
- you're Nick Williams.
- You lead the Rochester Gay Men's Chorus.
- Well, yes I do.
- And then what's the next question?
- How do you do that?
- So it's again, your social skills
- clicking in because I don't know who this person is.
- They know who I am, but they sit in an audience
- and my back is to the audience for 90%
- of the time I'm in that room.
- I don't get to look at them.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: But there's a certain sense of responsibility
- that comes with being a public figure.
- NICHOLAS WILLIAMS: But it's the same responsibility
- that I had as the teacher.
- So for me, that's who I am.
- I'm not going to change my standards for you.
- I'm not going to change it for this person.
- That's just who I am.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I have one question not for camera.
- Would it be you or who would I talk to about maybe getting
- some old video footage of--