Audio Interview, Betty Dwyer, July 19, 2012

EVELYN BAILEY: But then he became

involved when the CETA funding came about,

or the grant was written and that whole thing.

I don't know how much of that you remember

in terms of what it was like to get that out

of the hands of the Community Chest

into the City Council Baileywick.

And then Bill Johnson's taking that whole federal funding

over.

But you were present at City Hall chambers

when that was brought to the floor.

BETTY DWYER: Yeah.

I wasn't actually present at City Hall chambers

when the United Way brought it to the floor.

I was unemployed at the time.

I had left ABC actually for a better community

where I'd worked for ten years and had gone trucking off.

Then I was back in town.

And I came back to town over the summer,

would have been about '77.

And so, when I started to look for a job,

there was one advertised--

I think just advertised in the newspaper.

And I don't even think it gave any detail about what it was.

But anyway, I applied.

And I was interviewed by this gentleman who had already

been hired by the United Way to manage this CETA grant, which

the city of Rochester was getting about one

million dollars in funds from the federal government

through what-- it was called the Concentrated Employment

and Training Act, which was CETA.

And one of the things that they were able to do with it

was public service employment, hiring people

to perform jobs in nonprofit organizations that

would provide public service.

So City Council must have gone through a process beforehand

to decide that they were going to use one million dollars

for that purpose.

Because there were all different kinds of training programs

that could be financed under the act, I'm sure.

So anyway, because they wanted to provide these public service

employees to a number of different nonprofits

throughout the community, the city

didn't want to have to administer

all these small contracts and grants.

So they chose the United Way, as this kind

of umbrella funding organization for nonprofits, to manage it.

And so the deal was that applications

were submitted to the United Way for them to review and select,

which was--

one million dollars was enough money

to finance about one hundred jobs.

Ten thousand dollars was like a maximum to be paid.

So I believe they had already structured

the thing for different types of jobs from research assistants

to clerical secretarial to I don't know--

a variety.

So all these different nonprofits

were submitting applications to get people.

So anyway, I was interviewed by this gentleman, who

had been hired by the United Way to manage the project, to serve

as his assistant because I was very

familiar with the community, and very familiar with nonprofits,

and had worked in the neighborhoods for years,

for about ten years before I left ABC.

So he interviewed me, offered me the job,

and said, "OK, we're submitting the details of the contract."

Because the city held the right to review the final contract,

which included all of the different organizations

that were going to get jobs assigned to them.

So they wanted to see that before the final contract was

signed for the United Way.

So that's when all hell broke loose.

Because when the United Way sent it to the city,

they included-- among the agencies and organizations

that they had selected, they had included

the Gay Alliance to be able to have three people allocated

to them.

I never discussed in enough detail with the man

exactly how they were going to manage the contract,

whether they were all going to be employees of the United Way

and just sent out to these agencies

or how they were going to actually structure this thing.

So of course, I was kind of--

they were supposed to go to City Council

what on a Tuesday or Thursday, whatever day the City

Council was meeting.

And then I was supposed to start working the next Monday.

So I was a little alert as to what was going on with it,

but I didn't actually go to City Council.

But I did see on the news that all hell had broken loose

at City Council with raving born-agains in there.

So I thought the next morning, well,

this is kind of interesting.

I think I'll take a little trip down to the United Way

to see how they're responding to this.

So I did.

I drove down to their offices and walked in-- and just

in time to catch the announcement at a news

conference by--

I forget the name of the woman who was the assistant.

She was president (unintelligible)

of the United Way--

EVELYN BAILEY: The chair of the United Way?

BETTY DWYER: No, she wasn't the chair.

She was an administrative position,

but she wasn't the head.

She was his assistant.

She was an African-American woman.

I can't remember her name.

But she was holding court in announcing to the world

that the United Way would not be managing this project.

It would not be pursuing the contract

with the city of Rochester.

I don't know how delicately she put the whole thing.

But bottom line, it was we can't afford

to be involved in such a controversial issue.

And they were getting zillions of phone calls

about who was going to withdraw their support from the United

Way.

And they couldn't afford it.

They couldn't afford to do it.

And in fact, they were not a politically controversial

institution.

So it was dropped like a hot potato.

That was the end of that.

That was the end of my job.

That was the end of that guy's job they had hired.

And so of course, I started to think,

as the dust started to settle, that this might

be an interesting thing to do.

So as I watched the newspapers, the Urban League

started to talk about it.

They started to talk about the Urban League,

talking to the city about being willing to take

on this contract.

And I decided, well I know the Urban League.

I had been on the board of directors of the Urban League.

I had been there when Bill Johnson was hired.

I had been a board member of the League, actually,

so I knew Jeff Carlson.

I knew them, and they knew me a little--

not well, but--

So I just dropped a line to Bill Johnson

and said, well, I'm in town.

I'm back.

I'm available.

I'm looking for some employment.

And so as it all turned out, of course,

the city decided to go that way.

But when I was interviewed for the job,

actually by Jeff Carlson, not by Bill, I said to him,

"If there's been any deals made here about the Gay Alliance,

I won't have anything to do with it."

"No, no," he said, "No.

We're in charge.

They said it would be totally our responsibility

to devise the methodology to evaluate and select

the organizations."

What the United Way did was out the window.

That was now irrelevant.

And if the Urban League took the contract,

the Urban League would have to establish a fair and equitable

way to assess applications and determine who would--

and we would then also still have

to bring the package back to the city

and have them approve the contract.

EVELYN BAILEY: Do you remember who was the mayor at the time?

BETTY DWYER: Tom Ryan.

Tom Ryan was the mayor.

EVELYN BAILEY: OK.

BETTY DWYER: Tom Ryan was the mayor.

I'm quite sure still at that time

Ruth Scott was still on Council.

The big Schiano was of course the dramatic Republican rally

around Schiano.

But he was the only Republican, I believe, on City Council

at the time.

But there was a Democrat--

old, Italian, good friend of the mayor, but quite conservative,

and so he was--

In terms of City Council, City Council

was really, really generally--

except they're the only two that I thought were real problems.

And the other guy, who I can't think of his name right now,

he wasn't a very prominent politician in town

and I don't think prominent member of City Council.

He was kind of a--

EVELYN BAILEY: It was Schiano's name

that got really projected into the media as the--

BETTY DWYER: That he was the--

EVELYN BAILEY: The spokesperson for the "opposition," quote

unquote.

BETTY DWYER: Yeah.

He was.

He absolutely was.

No, He totally was.

So yeah, we went through--

I discussed with them what my attitude

was about what the criteria would

be for reviewing and selecting.

And, of course, we had to be super careful.

So we devised this method of reviewing the applications,

which--

well, it was advantageous to the Alliance,

but it was advantageous to really all community-based,

smaller community organizations, which is where I really came

out of that whole movement.

As the director of a neighborhood center

on Union Street, that was my belief,

that you needed to be grassroots,

close to the community.

And that made it particularly advantageous,

of course, for the Alliance too because it was a grassroots

organization.

So I ended up feeling that I was in a pretty key position

to be able to manage this thing.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Let me just back up a little bit.

From your point of view or your sense of it,

why do you think the Urban League chose to take this on?

BETTY DWYER: Because Bill Johnson

was smart enough to know that this was an opportunity.

KEVIN INDOVINO: An opportunity of what--

BETTY DWYER: This was an opportunity

to get a major grant and contract

from the city of Rochester.

KEVIN INDOVINO: And of course administrative fees

that would be--

BETTY DWYER: One million dollars in 19--

they didn't make a lot of money off it, I don't think, really.

But one million dollars in 19--

I mean, one million dollars today,

people look at you like you're out of your mind.

And it was one million dollars, and it was one hundred jobs--

I mean, one hundred jobs.

KEVIN INDOVINO: One jobs that came under the umbrella

of the Urban League?

BETTY DWYER: The way it was structured--

again, I was in a pretty key position to structure

how this was going to be done and administered.

And I had been a manager, a director of a neighborhood

center.

So I had strong attitudes about these things.

And I thought it would just be a horror

to have one hundred Urban League employees scattered

to thirty different agencies and organizations

and try and be responsible for managing them, timecards

and all.

I had done enough summer youth programs and all that kind

of stuff that I knew that it would

be an administrative management nightmare.

So I said what we'll do is enter contracts

with all these organizations.

They became employees of those organizations,

so that we did not have the direct day-to-day--

we didn't have to be fiscally responsible for a hundred

timecards all over creation.

So that's the way we did it.

We did actual contracts.

But then we had our own staff that did supportive services

because the point of the whole thing, of course,

was to get people employed to move into permanent employment,

which I took very seriously.

And we took it seriously.

So we had people to serve, to do workshops

and training for employment and interviewing

and all that kind of stuff.

So we created a whole variety of--

I had a staff of three program monitors.

I also wanted to provide support to the organizations,

many of which were small and didn't

have a lot of good systems or management in place,

to be able to be supportive to them,

to be successful in being able to use the people.

You know?

Because people will say, "Oh, I need ten people.

Send me ten people."

They don't know what the hell to do with two, one.

So I was really interested in trying to offer that kind

of additional support to community-based organizations

to strengthen their management systems and their ability to be

able to manage people and money--

as well as the employees, the participants themselves,

to get good job experiences to be

able to move into permanent employment.

And in doing that, and it was understood

and we made it clear to all the organizations, hey,

don't count on these people for twelve months.

Because if we can help them get out

and get a solid job that's going to give them

some stability in lesser time, they will go.

And you will just have to get a deal with another person, which

isn't the easiest thing either for an organization.

But that was the deal.

You're getting free labor.

But for the participants, we're really

trying to help them in their seeking permanent employment

and advancing whatever careers or interests they have.

For you, we're interested in helping you

with your organization in any way that we can

and giving you a track record, too,

of managing a contract successfully

and that kind of thing.

So we had program managers--

program monitors is what they were called, I think.

So I think we had three of them because we

had thirty-three organizations.

So we divided up the organizations,

and Clair was the manager.

I hired Clair Parker, who was the monitor for the Gay

Alliance.

EVELYN BAILEY: Now go back.

You had just talked to City Council about the strings

attached to the Urban League.

BETTY DWYER: No, not to the City Council, to the Urban League.

The Urban League was hiring me.

Jeff Carlson was then deputy director of the Urban

League under Bill Johnson.

And so he was the one that interviewed me for the job.

Bill never talked to me about the job at all.

I think he probably did that very deliberately.

He didn't want to be accused.

Everybody was walking very gingerly on this whole thing.

So he never even talked to me.

But Jeff did.

But like I said, I made it clear to Jeff

if any deals have gone down when you've assured City Council--

don't worry about it.

If we get the contract, we'll figure out

how to keep the political heat off of you.

And he assured me that no, that they hadn't.

And that it was in our hands.

And that it would be in my hands essentially,

that they would not dictate to me how

the monitoring of the applications would be set up.

I have tremendous admiration for Bill.

I have a lot of respect for him to begin with, but particularly

in that area.

He stood right back away.

He did not interfere in any way with the whole process.

There was nothing about Urban manipulating--

I was the only manipulator in the operation.

And nobody knew I was gay.

EVELYN BAILEY: So talk a little bit about the process that you

used because you then had to re-evaluate every single

contract that--

BETTY DWYER: I can't remember how many applications there

were.

There might have been as many as one hundred.

I can't-- no, it couldn't have been that many.

But there were a lot.

There were more than could be funded.

So I created this criteria to rank

the proposals, a whole bunch of different questions.

God knows.

But like I said, the basic philosophy

was tilted towards small, nonprofit, community-based

organizations-- not the hospitals, not the whoever

else, which I can't even remember

who went to the United Way.

But I tilted the thing in favor of that type of organization.

So they got extra points for community involvement

and for blah, blah, blah.

I can't remember.

But anyway, I created this thing, and it had points.

Then we put a team of reviewers together from staff

within the Urban League.

I can't remember how many people,

but there would have been at least four people.

Four or five people.

To be perfectly honest, I'm really not sure

if I was a reviewer or not.

I might have decided it was better for me not to be,

but then I might not have.

I can't remember.

But I do remember very clearly there were two

reviewers for each proposal.

So no single person was the ultimate decider

on the rankings.

And so, I don't remember another single application,

but I remember clearly the Gay Alliance.

There were two reviewers.

Maybe there were two reviewers and if there

was a big enough spread between the two reviewers' ranking,

then a third person had to look at it.

And then it was reconciled with the two closest or something.

So the Gay Alliance proposal came

in reviewed out of a score of one hundred, forty-something.

I would almost say I could remember forty-three,

but I wouldn't swear to that.

But I knew it was in the forties which

was a very low score actually.

And the other one was in the nineties.

So there was clearly a large enough spread

for a third reviewer.

And to tell you the truth, I can't remember

whether I got to do that one.

If I didn't, I probably was in a good enough position

to feel confident about who did it.

EVELYN BAILEY: I think you did do it.

BETTY DWYER: I think I might have.

EVELYN BAILEY: That's what you said--

BETTY DWYER: I might have held myself out of the first round

and then participated in the final.

Did I say that before?

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

BETTY DWYER: Yeah.

Well, I don't remember that clearly right now.

But I do remember that--

because I remember the guy.

The guy-- I mean, history is history, right?

And we're fifty or sixty years away, and Jeff Carlson is dead,

so what difference does it make?

But my suspicion was that Jeff wanted

to get this political hot potato off of their back.

And he told Dave Worsham, who was the grant

writer for the Urban League, and he was a white guy,

and he was the reader that gave it a forty-three, that he

had been given the word.

I would not at all think from Bill,

but very possibly, very credibly in my mind, from Jeff

to trash this one and get this off our backs.

But the process had been put together in a way--

KEVIN INDOVINO: (unintelligible)

BETTY DWYER: That effectively thwarted that.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.

BETTY DWYER: I've never told anybody that before

about my suspicions about Jeff.

But Jeff would have, I can imagine.

EVELYN BAILEY: Well, who else was there?

BETTY DWYER: I mean Bill, but Bill clearly

was keeping himself away.

So that took care of that issue because there was no question

to be raised by anybody.

So that got-- and then the community

was kind of so exhausted over the whole deal

before that that it was kind of anticlimactic that year then

for the final contract to be approved by the city

and for the thing to go forward.

And of course the press did stuff and all that,

but we went forward.

But of course, it was under my clear understanding.

I've been involved in ABC, so that was politics.

That was advocacy.

That was all the principles of this kind of stuff.

So I was as paranoid and super sensitive

as anybody in the town about those kinds of issues.

So then the challenge became, how do we keep this going?

EVELYN BAILEY: And correct me if I'm wrong.

I recall your saying that when you presented this

to City Council finally, Bill Johnson had worked out

it was all or nothing.

You weren't going to take each of these contracts

and vote on them separately.

BETTY DWYER: Yes.

Absolutely.

I'm sure that was from the get-go.

It was a package.

EVELYN BAILEY: It was the package or--

BETTY DWYER: Yeah.

Because he wouldn't have tolerated

that kind of interference and micromanagement by--

I'm sure that he negotiated that right from the get-go

with the city.

We'll do it, but it's ours to do then.

And you don't get involved in the details of it.

EVELYN BAILEY: Do you recall how much the grant was for?

BETTY DWYER: It was around one million dollars.

It might have been--

EVELYN BAILEY: But I mean the Gay Alliance grant or project.

BETTY DWYER: The Gay Alliance.

Well, there were three employees.

It was probably thirty-five thousand dollars

or something like that.

They had-- ten thousand dollars, like I said, was the most.

And it was really for employees.

I think we-- yeah, we did--

we gave some money probably.

There would have been maybe some for supplies and mimeograph

stuff.

The first year, that was that year.

It was the next year that was the real deal when

we had to go back for the second contract.

That's when we were--

I have never in my life ever been put under the gun

quite as intensely as when we went the second round

because they were--

KEVIN INDOVINO: Under the gun from the City Council

or from the community?

BETTY DWYER: No, from Council.

We didn't give a damn about the people who were raving maniacs.

But Schiano and troops and having

to go before committees because Schiano took advantage of that

as a real killer.

But so really what I did--

like I said, the whole philosophy

was to move people into employment.

But a secondary advantage to that, of course,

was if after twelve months you have people

that have worked for you for less than twelve months

and have been so cooperative and helpful about moving them

into other employment, certainly we

aren't going to stop your contract

and make you fire people who've only

been working for a few months.

That doesn't make sense.

Right?

So of course the Gay Alliance had

employees who had come on after the twelve months.

But instituting that policy and approach, first of all,

in effect guaranteed continuation of the contract.

So luckily, philosophically everything

all fell nicely into place.

But it was pretty--

KEVIN INDOVINO: So in the second go-around--

BETTY DWYER: It was a twelve-month contract.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Right.

But the second go-around with City Council and Schiano

and all his doings, did it really

even matter because you already had some sort of mechanism

in place?

BETTY DWYER: Well, they could have not renewed the contract.

They could have not renewed the contract.

And in order to get the contract approved--

KEVIN INDOVINO: The entire contract?

EVELYN BAILEY: With the Urban League?

BETTY DWYER: The entire contract, yeah.

Which was unlikely, but they can put you

through hell in the meantime.

And what was really interesting about that--

I tried to make sure, of course, that I had

every base possible covered.

We had evaluations.

And the money, we watched like hawks.

And I just do that as a manager anyway.

You don't screw around with money,

and you do what you're supposed to do.

And so we had probably had maybe one hundred

and thirty people go through that first twelve months.

We had moved people out and turned them over--

not just at the Alliance, but it was the same philosophy

all the way around.

So things had gone very well.

And I had it very well documented,

and I had everything documented.

And I had evaluations up the kazoo

from participants, and agencies, and all the rest of it.

So like I said, I got this policy agreed to

within the Urban League.

This makes sense that we aren't going to bounce agencies

out that have been helpful, and helped the workers,

and have helped us get to our goals of getting people

into employment and everything.

But you still had to go through the whole nine yards.

And, of course, Schiano wanted to see everything--

every piece of paper that ever existed.

And their big thing in the beginning

was that we were not promoting and propagating

this terrible lifestyle of homosexuality.

And so the big issue was the Empty Closet,

which really was just a mimeographed sheet

at that point.

Because this was the great tool to convert

the world to homosexuality.

So, of course, Schiano is on to this

and the propagation of homosexuality

and what was done with the money.

So we went--

Bill and I both had to appear in front of the Council committee

that was doing this, which was for some reason I

think the personnel committee or something.

It was crazy.

Anyway, Schiano was on it, but Ruth Scott chaired it.

Or she might have chaired Council at the time maybe

as well as the committee.

She was chairing the committee.

And they had an open committee meeting,

so all the crazies came to that.

Macaluso primarily was one of the more vociferous crazies

of the day.

EVELYN BAILEY: Was that typical to have an open committee

meeting?

BETTY DWYER: An open committee meeting?

I don't think so.

I don't think it's that--

it might not be, but he might have pushed that.

And they did have it.

And Bill appeared with me.

The two of us appeared together at the committee meeting.

And I'm sure I've told you this before that it was really

a moment of enlightenment, I think, for Bill Johnson.

Because Macaluso got up and was talking

to the committee, but particularly Ruth Scott

was right in front of him.

And he made one of his typical, unbelievably ignorant

statements, talking about immorality.

And he referred to prostitution or something

and kind of looked at Ruth Scott and made some kind of comment

like, "She would really understand that."

It was stunning.

It was stunning how he--

her face.

She was stunned.

Johnson's sitting next to me, and I

could feel the light bulb go on in his head.

I could literally feel it go on in Bill Johnson's head

that it's the same thing.

It's the same thing all over.

That's what this man's talking about.

It was amazing.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Who is this Macaluso person?

BETTY DWYER: What was his--

EVELYN BAILEY: Michael Macaluso?

BETTY DWYER: Michael.

Oh he was a--

EVELYN BAILEY: He now is principal of the Guardian

Angels School up on Ridge Road.

BETTY DWYER: Is he still alive?

No joke.

EVELYN BAILEY: And they have about one hundred or one

hundred and ten students, and they wear uniforms.

And they say the rosary at the beginning of the day.

And it is a religious, fanatical process.

BETTY DWYER: God, I thought he would have died.

EVELYN BAILEY: But you would not have

believed the outrageous, vehement, violent, abusive

statements that would come out of his mouth

and other people's mouths who were spokespersons

for the Moral Majority.

BETTY DWYER: Yes.

And they were very strong.

Who was the guy who was the big--

he was the Catholic arm and the Moral Majority.

The Baptist guy, who has he?

God, I can't think of his name now.

But he was very outspoken and prominent

and had a pretty good-sized congregation at the time.

And what I did experience-- because I didn't experience

the first time at City Council.

But see the second go-around, we had this committee meeting,

and at which then, of course, Schiano

made this big thing about wanting to see

where the money was spent.

So I said to him, "OK.

You want to see where the money's been spent, buddy?

You're going to see it."

We went back to the office.

I said to the staff, "We are duplicating

every invoice that's come in from everybody

for the whole year.

And every member of City Council is getting a copy

at City Council meeting."

So the committee takes this to City Council meeting.

And that's when all of the crazies

totally fill City Council's chambers.

I mean, sick people with their kids sitting next

to them, saying stuff, just unbelievable,

just unbelievable.

I mean, it was the one experience in my life

where I've ever been in the middle of that kind of hatred

that was just unimaginable in the name of Christianity.

EVELYN BAILEY: Were you afraid?

BETTY DWYER: I was just nervous as hell.

I really was stressed.

I have to say between that committee meeting and the City

Council meeting, I was pushed to the edge.

I was really stressed out because you just didn't know.

These people were crazy.

And you just thought, man, any kind of--

You've got one hundred and thirty

people that have been out there all over creation.

You can't keep track of every little thing that goes on

and every little stuff.

You don't know what in the world is liable to just blow.

And the media's going crazy.

And I'm getting telephone calls where they're literally just

trying to trap you.

I was getting calls from the DNC and this reporter who

would throw stuff--

I just was trying--

leading questions, they'll kill you.

They'll get you to say anything, and then it's

headlines the next morning.

This guy wanted a story so bad.

He wanted to blow some junk out of--

I just stayed as calm and cool as I could and just frustrated

the hell out of him.

And they never got it.

Nothing ever really dropped.

But you didn't really know what was liable to drop.

And I really felt totally responsible.

And I was not an out gay person.

I had never had anything to do with the Gay Alliance.

I had never had anything to do with a gay organization.

I had not done anything.

And on a personal level, I was a little freaked too,

although Clair really got freaked, I have to say.

Clair got really--

Clair was out and had been with the organization and everything

else.

When we came back to say we've got

to get these things together, I said

we're going down to the Alliance.

I'll tear the place apart.

Don't keep anything from me because if there's a surprise,

somebody is going to go down here because there's

too much on the line.

I remember literally charging into the Gay Alliance offices.

And I think Pat Collins was there

like, "Who the hell is she?

And what does she think she's doing?"

I said, "Look, lady, don't give me any grief.

We need this shit together.

And so show me whatever there is."

But anyway, we put literally a stack of duplicated invoices--

everything from a cup of coffee to a--

this high and gave them to every member of City Council

at City Council chambers the night of the vote.

And Schiano's there.

He's going through all this shit,

trying to dig out something.

"The newspaper, the newspaper.

Well, you've been funding the newspaper."

But it was just too much.

It was too overwhelming for them to be

able to put anything together, which

was, of course, the object.

But these people were going crazy.

And then I remember, of course, people could talk.

I'll never forget seeing the gay contingent there.

It was just amazing.

Dressed to the hilt, the guys like this.

And everybody is wondering whether they were

going to be lynched, really.

And the people really did want to lynch them.

Making their statements-- there was some nun.

I can't remember who she was.

Got up and spoke in favor of the thing.

And then, of course, there's a break

between the public comments and the Council officially starting

its meeting.

And so I remember getting up and going

back to where they were taking their break in the back.

And the mayor is there.

Ryan was a good man.

He really was.

He really didn't want the aggravation,

but it came with the territory kind of thing.

But this joker whose name I can't remember except that he's

a classic Italian guy--

EVELYN BAILEY: White?

BETTY DWYER: White Italian guy who

was a great buddy of Tom Ryan.

That's the only reason he was on City Council.

Making a comment to the effect of, "Well, all those nuns

are a bunch of lesbians anyway."

KEVIN INDOVINO: It wasn't Termotto, was it?

BETTY DWYER: He didn't say it just like that.

Huh?

KEVIN INDOVINO Was it Termotto?

BETTY DWYER: I don't think so.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Because I know Termotto and Ryan were

pretty close.

BETTY DWYER: Was he a Council member?

KEVIN INDOVINO: No, but he was--

BETTY DWYER: I don't think it was Termotto.

I don't think that was the name.

If you go back and look in the--

EVELYN BAILEY: I'll find it.

BETTY DWYER: Look in 19-- that would have been '78.

EVELYN BAILEY: 1978.

BETTY DWYER: Yeah, it would have been '78.

And I can't remember exactly how.

He didn't say it quite-- he didn't use the term lesbian.

Nobody used the term lesbian.

Nobody in those days would allow such a thing

to come out of their mouths.

(unintelligible) he wouldn't have said that.

But it was.

That was the gist of it.

This lady coming up, I don't what they're doing.

But he didn't dare--

I don't know.

He might have voted against it with Schiano.

He might have actually voted against it,

which was irrelevant anyway of course because they

were the only two.

His religious conscience might have

forced him to vote against it.

Ryan didn't care probably.

Didn't make any difference.

But it was high drama, high drama that night,

and a real relief.

So just to round it out, what they did--

because City Council really didn't

want to have to go through that again--

is the next year they decided that it would be better

to use those monies for an energy conservation

program and jobs.

So they did stop it.

And they put an end to it, but we continued.

And I ran as an energy conservation,

doing energy audits in people's homes.

It was the late seventies.

The energy was a big deal then.

So we ran an energy conservation program, but they got it in.

Two years was as much as they were

willing to take for the heat.

EVELYN BAILEY: Was it--

was all the heat just because of the Gay Alliance?

Or were there other factors in there?

Other organizations, African-American organizations,

or women's organizations?

Anything else or the focus was just on the Gay Alliance?

BETTY DWYER: Not really.

In those days, there was nationally

from the far-right Republicans who

opposed these government programs, which was nothing

like it is today of course.

There was this waste of taxpayer money on such things.

And Rochester made the national news and editorial.

I can't remember who that guy was

who was a national columnist who cited this

as one of the great examples of how inappropriate

and what a waste of taxpayer money

it was that Rochester, New York was giving money to gays.

And that ran nationally.

I can't remember what his name was, who that columnist was.

EVELYN BAILEY: I don't know either.

But in the Council chambers when the people from the community

spoke, they only spoke in opposition to the Gay Alliance?

BETTY DWYER: The only issue was the Gay Alliance.

There was no other organization that had any--

not to my recollection.

There wasn't a word spoken about anybody else.

KEVIN INDOVINO And was it your sense

that all those people in City Council, all the crazies--

do you think they were all organized just by Macaluso?

BETTY DWYER: No, actually they weren't Macaluso.

They were the Baptists.

Macaluso didn't really-- to my recollection--

EVELYN BAILEY: Macaluso was there.

BETTY DWYER: Yes.

But Macaluso didn't have a big following, as I recall.

EVELYN BAILEY: Not at that time.

BETTY DWYER: The Catholic Church was a more serious institution.

It had a little bit more to do with spirituality

in those days.

It's just degenerated from that time.

Like I said, the Catholic nun got up in support of it.

There was no big move by the Catholic Church.

KEVIN INDOVINO I was just trying to get a sense of who organized

to get all those people there.

BETTY DWYER: It was predominantly

this one minister.

The Moral Majority was--

he's the same guy that set up that--

and it still is there, and I drive down along Seneca Lake--

that he set up, that freedom place, whatever.

Then he got into some problems.

Because I don't know whether there was scandals.

There was some kinds of scandals,

and I can't remember if it was just finance or whatever.

But it really made him fade into pretty much oblivion,

although that place is still down there.

And I have no idea who's really running it.

But I think his church was over around the Thurston Brooks

area.

I can't remember what his name was now,

but it was predominantly that congregation

led by that minister.

EVELYN BAILEY: Well, and what--

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, there's a name on the tip of my tongue

here.

It was an African-American gentleman.