Audio Interview, Kitty Moran Wolfsong, January 28, 2013

  • EVELYN BAILEY: Today is Monday, January 28th, 2013.
  • And I'm sitting with Kitty Moran Wolfsong, who
  • was, in the early '90s, the person who
  • brought to life again the youth group of the Gay Alliance.
  • So Kitty, were you born in Rochester?
  • KITTY WOLFSONG: Yes.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And when--
  • or how, I should say-- did you become involved with the youth
  • group at the Alliance?
  • What were the precipitating factors that
  • catapulted you into that arena?
  • KITTY WOLFSONG: Well, I was in Social Work
  • School from 1990 to 1992.
  • And I was also in the early stages of coming out
  • as a lesbian during that time.
  • And in graduate school--
  • youth have always been my primary interest.
  • I've spent most of my adult working
  • years in or around schools.
  • My first masters was in education.
  • So when I was doing a lot of my graduate school work,
  • I was doing it on gay youth.
  • Because what else would one do when
  • one is coming out as a lesbian?
  • And--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Makes sense.
  • KITTY WOLFSONG: And as I did some of my projects
  • in that area, I found out through research
  • that there currently was no youth group in Rochester.
  • I knew that there had been in previous years.
  • I didn't know very much about it.
  • But I knew that it had not been active for several years
  • at that point.
  • So I did some research in other cities.
  • I went to Syracuse and talked to the folks
  • that ran their youth group.
  • I went to Buffalo and talked to their folks.
  • And I had some ideas about what I wanted to do.
  • But there was no money for anybody
  • to be paying for it at that time.
  • And Chuck Collins and Linda Nichols
  • were interested in participating with me,
  • but they had a different vision than I did.
  • They didn't want gay to be in the title.
  • They didn't want to call it a gay youth group.
  • They wanted to call it Light House.
  • And they didn't want to house it in the Gay Alliance,
  • because they thought that would scare kids away.
  • And I thought that housing it in a church would scare kids away.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Which is where they wanted to have it?
  • KITTY WOLFSONG: Right.
  • So for that first year--
  • that was in '93, basically, '92, '93, late '92, '93.
  • They did run it out of the downtown United Presbyterian
  • Church.
  • And much as I predicted, they had very few kids finding them.
  • So at the end of that first year,
  • Linda Nichols chose to no longer participate.
  • Sorry.
  • My daughter is coming.
  • I don't know if you want to stop that for a minute.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: So let me stop for a minute.
  • How did you connect with Chuck Cohns?
  • KITTY WOLFSONG: Chuck and I both went to the downtown United
  • Presbyterian Church.
  • And we had become quite good friends.
  • And we both were interested in youth.
  • And
  • I really liked Chuck a lot because I
  • felt that he was a really good role model for young people.
  • He was very-- well, he was very handsome.
  • But he was also just a man of integrity, and very--
  • just the way he--
  • everything about him, the way he carried himself--
  • I just felt that he would really be a great role
  • model for young people.
  • And indeed, that first year that we worked together
  • at the Gay Alliance, he was a great role model.
  • The kids really connected with him and really liked him a lot.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: So Linda left after the first year.
  • And the second year comes along.
  • And how did you convince Chuck to go to the Gay Alliance
  • and move out of--
  • KITTY WOLFSONG: Well, partly, circumstance convinced him,
  • because we just weren't getting any kids out of the church.
  • And so he realized that it wasn't working.
  • And so he wanted something else to work.
  • And I had been doing a little bit
  • of leg work talking to Tanya.
  • Because I wasn't super involved in the actual youth
  • group that first year, I did a little bit of background work,
  • and I talked to Tanya.
  • And she was really interested in having us at the Gay Alliance.
  • So it was really Linda that was more adamant about not having
  • it out of the Gay Alliance and not calling it gay.
  • And I think partly that was her internalized homophobia.
  • And Chuck had a little bit less of that.
  • Chuck had a little bit of that going on, but not at the level
  • that Linda did.
  • So it wasn't that hard of a sell,
  • really, to convince him that this would be a better idea.
  • And once we started talking with Tanya and coming up with a plan
  • and deciding what we were going to do,
  • he got really enthusiastic about it.
  • He was very, very much on board by the time that we did it.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And when did you have your meetings
  • with the youth?
  • KITTY WOLFSONG: Sunday afternoons.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Has that--
  • I assume you chose that time because it was probably
  • the most optimal time of it working, of having kids come.
  • KITTY WOLFSONG: Our choice was basically
  • evenings, which are hard for kids-- because Chuck
  • and I were working full time.
  • So we couldn't do right after school,
  • which might have been a good time for kids
  • but wasn't a good time for us.
  • And I was concerned about safety, kids riding buses
  • in the evening and whatnot.
  • I just didn't think that that was a good idea.
  • And Saturdays, kids usually have other fish to fry.
  • And so we just thought that Sunday afternoon
  • was a good time that would be most likely to attract kids.
  • And it worked out pretty well.
  • That first year, by the end of the year,
  • we had a pretty solid core group of about eight kids.
  • Some weeks we had six.
  • Some weeks we had twelve.
  • But generally, there were eight of them
  • that came fairly regularly.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And so what did you do with them for two
  • hours on a Sunday afternoon?
  • KITTY WOLFSONG: Well, the first hour was reconnecting.
  • We'd go around the circle and ask them
  • how their week had been.
  • And I think the first meeting, we
  • asked them what topics they were interested in.
  • So we did have different topics that
  • were somewhat youth-driven.
  • There were times when something would be in the news,
  • or something would be going on locally
  • that we would talk about.
  • And usually, the first hour was very formal and very much
  • facilitated by the adults, and the second hour
  • was more social where the kids would just hang out and maybe
  • play games, talk with us, whatever.
  • Sometimes the first hour would extend into the second hour
  • by the kids' choice.
  • If they wanted to stay in a formal, big group, we did.
  • But if they wanted time to just play, that was fine, too.
  • Because they didn't have a lot of opportunity
  • to be with other gay youth at that time.
  • At that time for most of the kids that were coming to group,
  • being out in school was not safe.
  • Very few of them had anybody that they
  • talked about being gay with.
  • One or two of the kids had some outside friends that knew they
  • were gay, but most of them didn't.
  • And so they really looked forward
  • to that time of being with each other
  • and talking about what it felt like to be
  • so isolated in school and issues with parents.
  • We had a couple of parents that were really
  • supportive and lovely, and brought their kids to group,
  • and would come and talk to me, and were really great.
  • We had other parents that were pretty negative
  • and made life pretty hard for the kids.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: So the levels of acceptance within families
  • varied a great deal?
  • KITTY WOLFSONG: Oh, absolutely.
  • Absolutely.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And did the kids want
  • to therefore not only come to the youth group,
  • but did they feel safe in their own homes?
  • KITTY WOLFSONG: Not all of them did.
  • We had one kid in particular that
  • didn't feel safe in his home.
  • And eventually, we did end up getting him into foster care
  • eventually, because it just wasn't working.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And what ages are we talking about, Kitty?
  • KITTY WOLFSONG: Well, that first year,
  • we did have a couple of college kids
  • that came that ended up co-facilitating with us.
  • But the majority of the kids were between fifteen
  • and eighteen or nineteen.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: In 1993--
  • while AIDS was first identified in Rochester in 1981,
  • AIDS Rochester came into existence in 1984
  • with the hotline.
  • And then CHN came into existence a couple of years later.
  • So by the beginning of the '90s, money
  • was beginning to come through the pipeline,
  • and there were treatments.
  • How much of a concern was AIDS to the young people
  • you were meeting with?
  • KITTY WOLFSONG: Well, I don't think high school kids
  • worry about that sort of thing very much.
  • They're invincible when they're fifteen, don't you know?
  • But we did address it with them a couple of times.
  • We had one facilitator who worked for AIDS Rochester.
  • So we rotated our facilitators.
  • I was there almost every Sunday.
  • Chuck and I were there almost every Sunday.
  • But we had other facilitators that
  • would sign on and come first, second, whatever.
  • I can't remember.
  • Honestly, I should have written all this stuff down,
  • because I don't know.
  • I don't think we met every Sunday.
  • I think we met every other Sunday.
  • But I'm not positive, because that
  • was nearly twenty years ago.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Did you advertise in The Empty Closet?
  • KITTY WOLFSONG: Yes, we did advertise in The Empty Closet.
  • And we put signs up around the city in places
  • that we thought kids would go to.
  • There were a number of known hangouts,
  • especially for kids that were a little alternative.
  • And so those were the places that we would hang up signs.
  • Because the kids-- some of the kids
  • might have known about The Empty Closet, but a lot of our kids
  • really didn't until they started coming to group.
  • But they could read signs.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: I can check the meeting times and the frequency
  • through The Empty Closet.
  • KITTY WOLFSONG: Yeah, do that, because I just can't remember
  • exactly how often we met.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Now, in 2012, 2013, kids in the youth group
  • usually have a day of silence, a gay prom.
  • Were those events?
  • KITTY WOLFSONG: I'm trying to remember
  • the first day of silence.
  • I was involved with the first day of silence.
  • But I'm not sure if I was the facilitator or it
  • that was after Patti started.
  • It seems like-- gosh, I just remember that for sure.
  • Do you remember, Debbie, whether the first day of silence
  • was with us or with Patti?
  • DEB MORAN: Oh, I think it might have
  • been after Patti came over.
  • KITTY WOLFSONG: I think it was, because I'm not
  • sure I even knew about it.
  • I think she's the one that made me aware of it.
  • But I was there for that first one.
  • It was a pretty exciting event the first time we did it.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Gay prom?
  • KITTY WOLFSONG: No.
  • Well, the first gay prom that we did was also after Patti came.
  • Yeah.
  • Because she definitely was instrumental in creating that.
  • But I'm not positive.
  • See, those college students that I
  • mentioned earlier that helped us facilitate,
  • Patti was one of them.
  • And so there were some things that she and Juliana
  • helped to create that may have been
  • before Patti was officially hired by the Gay Alliance.
  • And that's what I'm trying to figure out.
  • Because I helped out with those things, but I don't think
  • I was the one that was really instrumental in creating them.
  • I'm sure it was the two of them that created them.
  • I just don't remember what the sequence was of when.
  • I participated.
  • I remember going to the first night out.
  • Well, the first time, we all met Mother's and we had a youth
  • night at Mother's.
  • That was the very first outing.
  • And that was after Patti was hired.
  • That was before the gay prom.
  • And I was there for that night.
  • And so I think the prom was--
  • and there was--
  • I remember the youth prom was associated with the sweetheart
  • ball the first time.
  • Because what we did was we had a separate room for the kids
  • on the night of the sweetheart ball.
  • It was back when the sweetheart ball was held, I think,
  • at the Radisson.
  • And the kids were not allowed in the room where alcohol
  • was being served, but they were allowed
  • in the other part of the area.
  • And that was the first time the youth were involved.
  • And I don't remember what year that was, either.
  • But that's something that you probably could find out
  • in The Empty Closet.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Now, you were a volunteer?
  • KITTY WOLFSONG: Yes, I was a volunteer.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And Chuck was a volunteer?
  • KITTY WOLFSONG: Yes.
  • We were both volunteers.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: After that first year, how many
  • other volunteers came on board?
  • KITTY WOLFSONG: I think I had a total of about six volunteers
  • that worked with us.
  • Not all of them every week.
  • There were one or two that were pretty committed
  • and came to most meetings and then others that
  • rotated through.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: So what made you stick with it?
  • KITTY WOLFSONG: Well, I like kids.
  • And I enjoyed doing it.
  • I don't know.
  • I guess I feel like--
  • I guess I feel like it's part of my spirituality
  • that there's a certain amount of time you need
  • to give back to your community.
  • I'm not big on giving money to things
  • because I don't know where my money is going.
  • But I figure if I volunteer a certain amount of time,
  • then that's worth about the same thing as money.
  • So that's-- that's sort of how I felt about it.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: What is it about you?
  • You could have devoted your time or committed your time
  • to adults or to seniors or to--
  • KITTY WOLFSONG: Because if you're--
  • just about any other marginalized group--
  • if you're black, your parents teach you
  • how to survive in the white world
  • and how to survive with the oppressive larger culture
  • and so on and so forth.
  • But if you're gay, you've got nobody.
  • You've got no adults teaching you how to navigate the world.
  • And so my feeling about it is that gay youth
  • need positive role models.
  • And when I started at Hillside, which was actually
  • the year before we took the youth group to the Gay
  • Alliance, I had a young boy who everybody except him
  • knew he was gay.
  • And he loved the girls because he liked to do their hair.
  • And he was so flamboyant, and just
  • a delightful, charismatic, wonderful young man.
  • And I remember when he first started tentatively
  • admitting to me that maybe he had sexual feelings for boys.
  • His belief about that was that if he was gay,
  • he was going to live his life in bars
  • and die young because he would just live a life of depravity.
  • Because that's the image in his community.
  • He was of Hispanic descent, and that
  • was the image that had been given
  • to him by his family of origin.
  • He had been told that that's what happened to gay men.
  • And I'm pretty sure that he had been
  • told that because from a very early age,
  • they probably knew he was gay.
  • You laid laid eyes on this kid, you'd know.
  • But when I told him that it was possible for him
  • to marry a man, and they could have
  • a little house with a white picket fence
  • and adopt kids if they wanted to,
  • the idea was completely foreign to him.
  • He just couldn't even imagine that maybe he
  • could have that life.
  • Because that's what he wanted.
  • He wanted to have children.
  • And he wanted to have a little house
  • and live a little suburban life.
  • And the fact that I was the first adult that
  • told him that he could be himself and have that
  • really meant--
  • really touched me.
  • What we tell kids they can be is what they become.
  • And if we tell them that all they can be
  • is second class citizens and alcoholics and depraved,
  • then that's what they're going to be.
  • But if we tell them that they can be whatever they want to be
  • and that they have the ability to create whatever life they
  • want to create, well, maybe they won't be a rocket scientist,
  • but they'll create a whole lot better life
  • than they would have if we told them that they
  • were going to be nothing.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Did you--
  • couple of questions.
  • You talk about this young man who was Hispanic.
  • What was the prevalent concept of homosexuals
  • in the African-American community?
  • KITTY WOLFSONG: It wasn't a whole lot better than his.
  • There's a lot more homophobia even today
  • in the African-American community
  • than there is in the mainstream white community.
  • It's getting better.
  • In every community, it's getting better.
  • It's 2013 as opposed to 1993.
  • So that's 20 years difference in time.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Were these kids involved in churches?
  • KITTY WOLFSONG: Some of them were.
  • Some of them were not.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Did that play--
  • in your experience with these young men and women,
  • was that a positive experience?
  • KITTY WOLFSONG: Rarely.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Being involved with formal religion?
  • KITTY WOLFSONG: In most cases it was not.
  • In most cases it was very, very negative.
  • And the messages they got in church were that they would--
  • that they were evil if they were gay, and that being gay
  • was a choice, and that all they had to do was pray to God,
  • and they'd be saved, and they wouldn't be gay anymore.
  • I'm not saying every church is like that.
  • That would be just ridiculous and highly stereotypical.
  • But it is much more likely for churches
  • in the minority communities to be like that than it is--
  • and certainly, there's a lot of charismatic
  • or very conventional churches in white society as well.
  • But in minority communities, they're more prevalent.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Suicide?
  • KITTY WOLFSONG: I was very, very lucky to not ever have that
  • while I was running the youth group.
  • We had a couple of kids that had a little bit
  • of suicidal ideation, a little bit of--
  • I don't think anybody ever attempted,
  • but there would be talk about it sometimes.
  • But after Patti took over, there was a young woman, a young girl
  • that did kill herself about two years in to, I think,
  • the time that Patti was--
  • and I was very--
  • at that point, I was still--
  • I was kind of supervising Patti because there
  • wasn't anybody at the Gay Alliance
  • that could supervise her.
  • So if she had an issue, if she had something
  • that was social work-y that she needed to deal with,
  • I was the one she came to.
  • And there was a pretty devastating experience when
  • that young lady killed herself.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Do you--
  • and I don't remember.
  • That's why I'm asking you if remember.
  • Was that after Matthew Shepard or before?
  • KITTY WOLFSONG: that's a really good question.
  • I'm not sure.
  • I think it was after, but I'm not positive.
  • That young lady had some mental health issues
  • aside from being gay, some depression issues.
  • As it happens, I met her mother a few years later.
  • And her mother was not unsupportive of her.
  • So it was much more of a depression-related issue
  • necessarily than totally a gay-related issue.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Do you recall, even
  • in your work with youth in schools
  • or at Threshold or at the Gay Alliance,
  • were suicide rates up in the '90s?
  • KITTY WOLFSONG: Yeah.
  • The national numbers indicated yes,
  • that suicide rates were definitely higher
  • among gay kids.
  • It was not something I had personally witnessed.
  • But the kids that got to us had some support.
  • They had friends.
  • They had somewhere to go.
  • And even the one kid who eventually ended up out
  • of his home knew that there were people
  • that cared about him that were going to find him a safe place
  • to live.
  • So in many ways, our kids were at much lower risk
  • than kids who--
  • the kids that are at the highest risk
  • are kids that don't find a group, that
  • don't have anybody to talk to.
  • Maybe they haven't told anybody until their suicide note,
  • and maybe not even then.
  • So sometimes we don't even know how many
  • kids that are completed suicides actually
  • were gay, because they may or may not
  • have ever told anybody that.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Were you involved with GSAs?
  • KITTY WOLFSONG: Yes.
  • After I stopped doing the youth group at the Gay Alliance,
  • I was working at Franklin High School,
  • and I started the GSA there.
  • It took a couple of years bucking the administration
  • to get that off the ground.
  • But it happened.
  • The first few GSA meetings that we had were under the radar.
  • And gradually, we became more of an official group.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: With the GSAs in mind,
  • they weren't in any way organized.
  • Within the school, the individual school,
  • they may have been.
  • But there was no GSA city meetings or--
  • KITTY WOLFSONG: For a while there,
  • we did try to organize a little bit.
  • There were a couple of meetings of facilitators of area school
  • GSAs.
  • But people who work in schools are generally
  • pretty busy people.
  • And getting everybody to come together for a meeting
  • wasn't always really easy.
  • We did keep in touch by email, and we consulted each other
  • and knew what was going on in other people's schools.
  • Oftentimes, the day of silence was the one day that we would--
  • the first year that we went to the day of silence,
  • we all met at St. John Fisher College.
  • And there were a lot of GSAs there that day.
  • And that day, I connected with a lot of other facilitators,
  • and we talked to each other and whatnot.
  • But I think that might be the only one that we
  • went to the central location.
  • The other years--
  • I think that year was the last year that the youth group was
  • in the Atlantic Avenue site.
  • Once we moved over, they moved over to the Main Street site.
  • There was a big enough room to really hold
  • a big Day of Silence Rally.
  • So after that, we didn't go to St. John Fisher anymore.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Were you involved with GLSEN?
  • KITTY WOLFSONG: Yes.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: What is GLSEN?
  • KITTY WOLFSONG: Gay Lesbian Straight Educator's Network
  • is what that stands for.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And do you remember when that
  • might have come on the scene?
  • KITTY WOLFSONG: Well I think it had been around
  • before I got involved in it.
  • I got involved in the late '90s.
  • But I certainly was not--
  • it had been there before I came on board
  • and continued after I stopped being actively involved.
  • I've not worked at a school for the last five years.
  • So that takes me out of--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Were you involved with the training at--
  • I don't know that it was GLSEN, but that Keith Powell
  • negotiated with the Rochester City School District.
  • KITTY WOLFSONG: Yes, I participated
  • in doing some of that training.
  • Yeah.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And that was for the entire city?
  • KITTY WOLFSONG: Yes.
  • And I did one of them.
  • At least one, maybe two.
  • I'm not sure.
  • But I spoke.
  • I wasn't in the audience.
  • I was on the stage of at least one of them.
  • It might have been more than one.
  • I can't remember.
  • I do a lot of public speaking, so I don't always
  • remember everything that I've done.
  • But I know that I've done it.
  • And I did at least one GLSEN training, maybe more.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And the focus of that
  • was not necessarily about homosexuality,
  • but about violence or bullying.
  • KITTY WOLFSONG: Yeah, bullying.
  • It's about teaching respect.
  • And I think that the big message of that
  • was that regardless of what your personal beliefs, every child
  • deserves to be treated with dignity.
  • And if you are personally opposed to homosexuality,
  • that's your right as a person to have an opinion.
  • But it is not your right as a person to mistreat someone
  • because you don't like what they're doing or who they are.
  • Just like if you don't like--
  • if you have something against Arabs,
  • you don't get to mistreat an Arab kid.
  • You just don't get to do that.
  • As a teacher, it's your job to treat every child
  • with dignity and respect.
  • And you're there to teach them.
  • You're not there to tell them how to live their lives.
  • And that was our big message, was
  • you teach respect, you get respect.
  • And when you see kids mistreating each other,
  • it is your job to interrupt that.
  • A lot of times, teachers don't know what
  • to do when they see things.
  • They know they're wrong.
  • They know it shouldn't be happening.
  • But they don't know how to intervene.
  • So part of what we did was talk to them about some ways
  • to appropriately intervene.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Over the course of the years that you were
  • involved with the youth group, with GSAs, with dealing
  • with youth, is there one incident or one experience that
  • really stands out in your mind as having some impact on you
  • personally?
  • KITTY WOLFSONG: Well, there's a few.
  • There's some positives and there's some more painful.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Take the positive.
  • KITTY WOLFSONG: OK I think that--
  • well, there's a couple, actually.
  • One really super positive for me was a young girl
  • that I started working with her when she was in seventh grade.
  • And this was not part of the youth group per se.
  • And she was kind of an awkward girl, didn't
  • know what to do with herself, and lots of family issues.
  • And gradually came out as a lesbian.
  • And watching her embrace her sexuality
  • and begin to feel good about herself
  • over the course of working with her for five years,
  • that was pretty positive and wonderful.
  • And the other, actually, was a straight kid
  • that came to the GSA.
  • He came with his friends.
  • And he had been in the Urban Suburban program
  • as a little boy and didn't come to Franklin
  • until he was in high school.
  • And he was involved in the GSA for two years.
  • And at the end of the second year, he graduated.
  • And at our end of the year gathering,
  • we were talking about our experience in the group
  • and what we liked about it and everything.
  • And he stood up instead of just sitting in his seat.
  • And he came over, and he gave me a hug.
  • And he said, I've been in a lot of different schools,
  • and I've had a lot of different teachers.
  • And you're the first person who ever taught me to think.
  • And that was pretty powerful in terms
  • of making me feel like I did do what I wanted to do.
  • It wasn't about if you're gay or if you're straight.
  • It's about using your mind and having healthy relationships
  • and learning how to be the best citizen you
  • can be with integrity.
  • And that was the message that I wanted to send them.
  • And he got it.
  • That was cool.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Given that you've been out of education
  • for four or five years, do you have
  • a perspective on how life for a gay student has changed?
  • Is it better?
  • Has it really changed?
  • Because the process of coming out
  • is still laden with fear and trepidation
  • and uncomfortableness and all of those things.
  • KITTY WOLFSONG: Well, even though I don't work in a school
  • anymore, I'm mainly still working with youth.
  • I work with youth in my private practice.
  • I work with kids between twelve and twenty-six.
  • And I think that things are definitely improving.
  • It's easier to come out.
  • Kids have role models on TV.
  • They have The New Normal.
  • They have Modern Family.
  • They get to see things that kids twenty years ago didn't
  • get to see.
  • But it's still dependent somewhat
  • on how religious is your family and how
  • strongly does your family adhere to old-fashioned homophobic
  • values.
  • And if they're in a family that's
  • very old fashioned and homophobic,
  • then they're going to have a hard time.
  • And if they're in a more open-minded family,
  • it'll be easier.
  • It also has a lot to do with individual personalities.
  • Some kids fit in socially no matter what,
  • and other kids just don't fit in socially.
  • And the social media of Facebook and all of that
  • is the good news and the bad news.
  • Because on the one hand, they can find community online.
  • They can find other gay kids.
  • They can know they're not the only one.
  • But also, the social media helps kids isolate and never come out
  • of their room.
  • They can only have online friends
  • and never actually have a real, skin-to-skin person
  • relationship.
  • And so I think social media has seriously
  • complicated growing up for any kid,
  • whether they're gay or straight.
  • And depending on the personality of the kid,
  • it can be really, really damaging.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: You brought us to the twenty-first century.
  • There are certainly more laws on the books--
  • Dignity for All, Students Act, SONDA,
  • Sexual Orientation Non-Discrimination Act.
  • But my question is, given all of those legislative changes,
  • given all the ways in which society
  • has tried to do the right thing, what's the real impact on kids?
  • KITTY WOLFSONG: Well, I think it's
  • like any other legislative change.
  • It begins to make change.
  • But the 1954 integration ruling didn't immediately
  • integrate the schools.
  • And so there are some schools that are really progressive,
  • depending on who's the principal and how
  • are the teachers organized.
  • And some schools are really great,
  • and other schools are really still pretty bad.
  • When I left the city school district five years ago,
  • there was still significant influence of religion.
  • There was very little separation of church and state
  • in the inner city school.
  • And so when you have sentries calling kids faggots
  • and telling girls that they're going
  • to go to hell if they have an abortion,
  • and nobody stops them because that's what God told them
  • to do, that's not always a very welcoming environment
  • for gay kids.
  • But it's not a very welcoming environment for pregnant kids
  • either, or whatever.
  • It's not just about being gay.
  • So it's very individual in terms of--
  • there are some things that are clearly better.
  • Just the fact that there are more kids, other kids that
  • are accepting because of media and all of that,
  • that's certainly better.
  • Almost anywhere, a gay kid can find a few supportive people,
  • no matter where--
  • whether they're living in Hilton or they're
  • living in Seneca Falls, or whether they're
  • living in Rochester, they're going
  • to be able to find a few people that they
  • can tell are going to be supportive,
  • which probably wasn't true twenty
  • years ago in every school.
  • And there are legal--
  • they do have legal things that they can do now
  • with Dignity for All.
  • If there is a problem, a really big problem,
  • they can seek legal action.
  • So those things are certainly good.
  • But any social change takes time and is
  • going to be gradual and dependent
  • on the individual players.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Two more questions.
  • You've had this experience before.
  • But if a young woman or man, sixteen, seventeen,
  • were sitting in front of you, what would you tell them?
  • KITTY WOLFSONG: About what?
  • EVELYN BAILEY: About how to negotiate the life being gay.
  • KITTY WOLFSONG: Well, first, I'd find out
  • a little bit about the kid's own individual situation.
  • Do they have any supportive people in their lives,
  • and is it safe to be out at home?
  • Generally, I do tell kids that if you really
  • feel like it's going to be unsafe to be
  • out within your family, don't do that until you
  • can support yourself.
  • Because kids get thrown out.
  • But even as I might tell them that,
  • I would say this is temporary.
  • It's not going to be the rest of your life.
  • You don't have to hide forever.
  • And you don't have to hide your light under a basket forever.
  • If it's not safe for you to be out yet, it's OK not to be out.
  • And then I would talk to them about where
  • they could get support.
  • Can they get support online?
  • Can they get support going to the Gay Alliance?
  • Where can they get some support safely?
  • I think those are the main things--
  • and that it gets better.
  • And that once you're an adult and you
  • can make your own choices, you can create whatever life
  • you want to create.
  • You can surround yourself with supportive people,
  • and they don't all have to be gay in order to be supportive.
  • You can find wonderful, eclectic, wonderful friends
  • that will love you just the way you are.
  • And the world is a friendly place
  • once you get out into it if they don't
  • know that from their families.
  • And I would talk to them about career choices, too.
  • What do you want to do as a career, something
  • where you can be yourself and you don't
  • have to worry about hiding?
  • And I also think that--
  • oh, I'm so sorry.
  • He is crazy.
  • You OK?
  • For myself, what I have found is that if you go into a job
  • situation without telling them ahead of time,
  • then you're always worrying about
  • are they going to find out.
  • But if you just go into every job situation being yourself
  • from the start, then you never have
  • to worry about being outed.
  • And that's how I feel about--
  • once you're safely an adult and you're supporting yourself,
  • don't walk around hiding anymore.
  • Don't pretend to be something that you're not.
  • Sometimes when you're a kid--
  • even kids who aren't gay sometimes can't fully
  • be themselves until they're adult and able to support
  • themselves and live on their own.
  • And I hate to have to give a kid that kind of advice,
  • but it depends on who their parents are.
  • Some parents are wonderful and supportive and would be great.
  • But if they know Mom and Dad are seriously homophobic,
  • I don't really want to counsel the kid
  • to do something that's going to get him beat up or thrown out
  • or whatever.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: What are you most proud of in terms
  • of your work with young people?
  • KITTY WOLFSONG: Well, that story I told you before.
  • And I have a lot of young people that come back to me
  • later for counseling as adults, or will find to me
  • and talk to me.
  • So the fact that I think I have had a positive influence
  • on a fair number of kids, I guess
  • that's the thing I'm most proud of.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: One more question.
  • What do you think needs to change in order for kids
  • to feel more safe in the environments in which they
  • live and go to school?
  • KITTY WOLFSONG: You don't want to hear the answer to that one.
  • I think what needs to change is the whole paradigm of power
  • over and hierarchy.
  • But that's a whole different thing.
  • I think that a lot of kids don't feel safe, whether they're
  • gay or straight.
  • As long as we continue to live the old paradigm of power over,
  • you still have a situation in which women, gay kids,
  • straight kids, whatever can feel unsafe.
  • When I started working at Franklin,
  • I became very aware of the word "respect."
  • Because it's thrown around at Franklin like a football.
  • It's a constant.
  • The word "respect," I must have heard it twenty times a day.
  • And what I realized is that for many people,
  • whether it's inner city gang kids or adults,
  • or whoever it is, the word "respect"
  • is synonymous with fear and obedience.
  • And that's not what respect is.
  • And respect is namaste, honoring the god within,
  • honoring each other in our truest light.
  • That's respect.
  • Power over and obedience are not respect.
  • And so until we get rid of the notion
  • that respect and fear are synonymous,
  • there's always going to be fear.
  • There is always going to be kids that don't feel
  • safe to be who they really are.
  • You weren't looking for that answer, were you?
  • EVELYN BAILEY: I wasn't looking for any answer
  • (Wolfsong laughs).
  • I was open to hear what you had to say.
  • Because I find it a somewhat daunting
  • question to answer, and an overwhelming question
  • to have to go there and try to work with and do something
  • about.
  • KITTY WOLFSONG: I'm reading a book right now that is called
  • While the World Watched.
  • It's about a woman who--
  • four of her best friends were killed in the Birmingham
  • bombing of the church.
  • So it's about the Civil Rights Movement, obviously.
  • And she mentioned a Martin Luther King
  • quote that says that the only way someone can ride your back
  • is if you're bent over.
  • And so although I am opposed to the notion
  • of blaming the victim or requiring only those that
  • are oppressed to have to make any change-- certainly
  • the oppressor needs to make some changes as well.
  • But as the oppressed, we need to stop allowing it.
  • And when you are fifteen, sixteen, seventeen,
  • you don't necessarily have the power to stop allowing it.
  • But when you become an adult, you
  • do have the power to stop allowing it.
  • You have the power to no longer hide and to no longer allow
  • internalized homophobia to control your life,
  • and to basically live your life with pride and dignity.
  • And when I say pride, I don't mean false pride.
  • I mean a sense of integrity and being.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And goodness.
  • KITTY WOLFSONG: Yes, exactly.
  • And what I found when I was working
  • at Franklin is that the first couple of years
  • that I worked at Franklin--
  • and I actually have told this story
  • as part of the GLSEN training that I did in the city school
  • district.
  • The first couple of years that I worked at Franklin,
  • I was out to my employer threshold.
  • But I didn't feel that I needed to announce it
  • to people at Franklin.
  • When I was married to a man, I didn't walk up to people
  • and say, hello, I'm Kitty, and I'm a heterosexual.
  • So I don't walk up to people now and say, hi, I'm Kitty,
  • and I'm a lesbian.
  • But I realized that I was monitoring my gender words.
  • And if I was talking about spending time with Debbie,
  • I would call her my spouse and avoid using her
  • or him, whatever.
  • Because I didn't necessarily want
  • to do coming out 101 with everyone.
  • I don't have time for that.
  • At least that's what I told myself.
  • But I think there was still that fear.
  • How are people going to react?
  • And am I going to be able to be as effective,
  • and blah, blah, blah?
  • And Debbie Rider, who was an administrator at Franklin
  • at the time and then later became the principal
  • at Charlotte and it was at Charlotte
  • that I was doing this training, and Debbie
  • was sitting in the audience.
  • So I was telling on her.
  • And we were sitting there one day, and I was talking about--
  • we were both talking about our children
  • and our spouses and whatnot.
  • And finally she said, can you just tell me her name
  • and get it over with?
  • And it was so freeing.
  • It was so-- oh, she just knew, and she didn't care.
  • And it was great.
  • But it made me realize that you can play that game.
  • You can do that-- oh, I don't need to be out people.
  • And it just obscures things.
  • It's false.
  • And it's not living with integrity.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: It's another mask.
  • KITTY WOLFSONG: Yeah, exactly.
  • And so that was the last time I ever did that.
  • But if you realize that, and you realize that it just
  • really serves no purpose at all to do that,
  • it changes everything.
  • And I guess that would be one of the things that I would tell
  • that sixteen, seventeen-year-old,
  • is that as you get older and have control over your own
  • life, if you are just living honestly and with integrity--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And openly.
  • KITTY WOLFSONG: Yeah.
  • The personal is political.
  • That's what makes change.
  • People that got to know me and know--
  • I'm really good with kids.
  • I don't mean to toot my own horn,
  • but I can get through to 95 percent of the kids that I see,
  • at least.
  • And so the fact that I have that talent, people respected me,
  • and they knew that I was really good at what I did.
  • And so the fact that I was a lesbian
  • became no more important than the fact that my eyes are blue.
  • It doesn't matter.
  • It's just one more piece of who I am.
  • But if you're hiding it, it becomes this elephant
  • in the living room as opposed to just one more piece
  • of who you are.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Did you ever think marriage equality would
  • happen in your lifetime?
  • KITTY WOLFSONG: No, probably not.
  • No.
  • I didn't.
  • Although because I came out so late in life,
  • I had less time to really think about that.
  • I don't know.
  • I was almost forty when I came out.
  • I was thirty-five, really.
  • DEB MORAN: I'm turning thirty-five this year.
  • Don't push me to forty.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: All right, sweetie.
  • DEB MORAN: I'm not almost forty.
  • KITTY WOLFSONG: Well, I was amending that.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: So one final question.
  • What do you want people to say about Kittie
  • when you're no longer here?
  • KITTY WOLFSONG: Oh, jeez (laughs).
  • What, are you writing my epitaph, or what?
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Well, what would you like your epitaph to read?
  • KITTY WOLFSONG: She walked her talk.
  • I guess that's what I--
  • I hope that that's what people get
  • from me, that I do as I say, not just give lip service to it.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Well, I think over the years,
  • I've observed that many, many times.
  • And I'd like to thank you for sharing
  • your history, your insights.
  • And you have made tremendous contributions
  • to this community.
  • Many of them will be realized by those
  • you've touched in years to come versus immediately.
  • Because that's the way youth lives their life.
  • In hindsight, in many ways, you see much more
  • than you did in foresight.
  • So thank you.
  • KITTY WOLFSONG: Thanks.
  • Thank you.
  • That's nice.