Audio Interview, Nicholas Williams, January 8, 2013

  • EVELYN BAILEY: Today is Tuesday, January 8th, 2013.
  • And I'm sitting here in the Gay Alliance
  • Library with Nick Williams, who was instrumental
  • in the Gay Men's Chorus beginnings way back in--
  • well, it's now twenty-two years ago or twenty-one?
  • NICK WILLIAMS: Thirty--
  • 1982.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Thirty years ago, 1982.
  • First of all, tell me why the idea ever
  • came into anyone's mind to do this, if you remember.
  • NICK WILLIAMS: Well, it goes back
  • to the early '80s when San Francisco Gay Men's
  • Chorus started.
  • And they'd had this great idea to do a national tour.
  • And as they did the national tour and they sang,
  • it got other people involved and saying,
  • well geez, if San Francisco can do it,
  • why can't we do it and create a sense of community?
  • So there was a man in Madison, Wisconsin
  • by the name of Kent Peterson.
  • And he was a student in Madison.
  • And he saw them.
  • And he helped form the Madison Gay Men's Chorus.
  • And his partner then studied at the U of R.
  • So they moved to Rochester.
  • And so he wanted to create a gay men's chorus in Rochester.
  • And there was also David Knoll, who
  • was just beginning the Genesee Valley Credit Union
  • and was also part of the Gay Alliance as well.
  • And he had asked me if I would start a gay men's chorus.
  • And I had said I can't do that.
  • I don't have the skill set to be able to start a gay men's
  • chorus.
  • So Kent Petersen came into town.
  • The two of them connected.
  • And they put up posters.
  • And so they created the first advertisement
  • of the Gay Men's Chorus, which was November of 1982.
  • And I saw the poster.
  • And I showed up at the first rehearsal.
  • After about three rehearsals, being that I have a big mouth,
  • I went up to Kent.
  • And I said, Kent, here's some issues that I'm seeing.
  • And here are some possible solutions that I'm seeing.
  • And he said, well, Nick why don't you
  • become co-conductor with me?
  • And I said, OK, I can do co-conductor.
  • And then he left town the following June
  • because his partner went on to school in another city.
  • And so they went off to another city, which then left
  • the Gay Men's Chorus in my lap.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Wow, I never knew that.
  • (laughter)
  • But you have a background in music.
  • NICK WILLIAMS: Correct, I have two degrees in music,
  • one from Crane, one from Eastman.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And is that choral or is it--
  • NICK WILLIAMS: No, the degrees--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: --instrument.
  • NICK WILLIAMS: --the degrees are in music ed,
  • because that's what I did is I taught music
  • in the public schools.
  • So my instrument was piano.
  • It wasn't voice.
  • I took it over.
  • And I said I need to learn what singing is all about.
  • So David McFarlane, who is a singer
  • who then moved to San Francisco, I
  • started taking lessons with him.
  • And I haven't stopped taking voice lessons
  • from that point in time.
  • I mean I'm still taking voice lessons.
  • And still singing.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Wow.
  • So you found out what singing was all about, or that process.
  • And you remained conductor of the gay men's chorus
  • for how many years?
  • NICK WILLIAMS: Was it twenty-four?
  • It was twenty-two out of twenty-four years.
  • I was conductor until 1990.
  • And in 1990, I quit because of many things that were going on,
  • some related to my job at school, some relating
  • to the personality conflicts, which
  • occur in any organization.
  • They went through a series of two conductors, three actually,
  • and then they were looking for a long-term one.
  • And that was two years later.
  • And I said, well, I think I'm ready to come back.
  • So I applied.
  • And I got the job in 1992.
  • And I kept that till I stepped down in 2006, 2007, somewhere
  • in there.
  • I don't remember which year.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: OK, so talk to me a little bit
  • about being in front of a audience on the stage
  • or at Doopsie, right?
  • NICK WILLIAMS: Well it depends.
  • In the beginning, we were at Calvary Saint Andrew's.
  • Then after Calvary Saint Andrew's, we went to Doopsie.
  • And then after Doopsie, we did most of our concerts
  • at Hochstein.
  • But we also did concerts at the Chamber of Commerce.
  • Back in '85, we did concerts at the Xerox Auditorium,
  • when that was available.
  • We did concerts at the Rochester Museum and Science Center
  • auditorium.
  • We did them at MCC.
  • So we really had to explore what concert venues were
  • available to us in the city of Rochester.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: So being visible in the Gay Men's Chorus,
  • how did you negotiate that with your teaching
  • in public schools?
  • Because at that time it was not quite
  • acceptable to be a gay teacher.
  • NICK WILLIAMS: Well and that goes back to Proposition 13
  • in California where they were trying
  • to remove all gay people from public school settings
  • because they didn't feel it was appropriate to expose children.
  • I just decided I was going to do it.
  • And I think 1990, part of that was the conflict of--
  • I was teaching at a high school.
  • At that point I had transferred up to the high school level.
  • And when you're doing a high school
  • and you want to develop a program, if you're gay,
  • it doesn't attract the boys.
  • And being a chorus, you need the boys as well as the girls.
  • So I think that was part of the reason I stopped conducting
  • in 1990, as well as some other interpersonal conflicts that
  • were going on within the chorus.
  • So that wasn't the only reason.
  • And I just decided that you need to do what
  • you have the convictions to do.
  • And so I just said, well, there will be issues
  • and there will be problems.
  • And I will deal with them when they arise.
  • And I just went and did it.
  • And when I stepped down from the chorus, the Director of--
  • I forget what her title--
  • Public Relations, I guess-- came up to me and said,
  • Nick, how can you step down from the Gay Men's Chorus?
  • You're famous.
  • You're out there.
  • And I thought, yeah, but that's not why I did it.
  • I didn't leave the chorus for that reasons.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Did you experience negative response
  • from your school?
  • NICK WILLIAMS: You're walking down the hall
  • and being called a faggot as a teacher by the students.
  • That was definitely there.
  • But what are you going to do?
  • You just hold your head where you're going to be.
  • And you set your standards.
  • And by the end--
  • the whole idea of what a gay person is
  • has changed so dramatically in the last thirty years.
  • By the end, I think it was a non-issue.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: The administration?
  • NICK WILLIAMS: They all knew.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Were they supportive, not supportive?
  • Or did they just make it a non-issue also?
  • NICK WILLIAMS: I think they made it a non-issue because I
  • never--
  • I'm very good at segmenting my life.
  • And so school was school.
  • Our GMC was our GMC.
  • And there was a wall between them.
  • And I didn't let them meet.
  • Now when I wanted to start a gay youth support
  • group in the school systems, I was told no,
  • that I could not create that and I could not start that
  • within the school systems.
  • Now someone else at a later time was able to start that.
  • And that now exists in Hilton.
  • But that did not exist for many years.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: So what was your primary motivation
  • in staying with the chorus for that long initially?
  • NICK WILLIAMS: I liked the guys, friendship,
  • the sense of community.
  • And for me, it was fulfilling musically for quite a while.
  • At the end, I think it was time for-- my musical tastes were
  • changing.
  • And they were not aligning with what the chorus wanted to do.
  • So I think that was one of the major reasons why
  • I left at the end, so that I could pursue music in the way
  • that I wanted to pursue music, not in the venue that they
  • were going.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And who began the Rochettes?
  • NICK WILLIAMS: The Rochettes started--
  • I did.
  • At least I'm the one that pushed them.
  • When we went to a conference in 1986,
  • I believe, in Minneapolis there was many--
  • we are a small chorus.
  • Rochester has never really gotten
  • over the fifty- member mark.
  • But if you go to some of the larger cities
  • where they are isolated, you have
  • choruses of 150 to 200 men.
  • And so we saw the Seattle Men's Chorus.
  • They are not the Gay Men's Chorus.
  • They're just the Men's Chorus.
  • And they had a subgroup that tap danced.
  • And it was just heaven on earth to see gay men up there tap
  • dancing.
  • So we came back and said, well jeez, why can't we do it?
  • So we contacted Kayla Allen, who we got through Jerry Algozer.
  • And she agreed to teach people how to tap.
  • And I did not tap, initially, because I thought well that's--
  • separate conductor versus performance.
  • And that lasted all of six months
  • before I started tapping.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Now was Jerry Algozer part
  • of the Gay Men's Chorus?
  • NICK WILLIAMS: No, we did a lot of semi-theatrical things
  • back in the '80s.
  • At Xerox, we did the Man in the Moon and the Lady
  • where we had Cecile Sane come in.
  • And so we hired Jerry to help us with the artistic directing,
  • to pull it together to make it more of a show orientation
  • verses a chorus concert orientation.
  • And he did that for two or three different shows that we did.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Because then he left.
  • NICK WILLIAMS: Right, then he left town,
  • and he went down to Florida.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Right, right.
  • Now he's in New York City.
  • NICK WILLIAMS: Oh, OK.
  • I did not know that.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah, I invited him
  • to come for the HPA official reception by the Smithsonian.
  • And he was coming, but it rained the night before.
  • And all of the tunnels were flooded.
  • NICK WILLIAMS: Oh my Lord.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And all of the roadways that he could
  • access to get out were flooded.
  • So he couldn't get here.
  • It's my hope that he will come at some point
  • and we can videotape him.
  • Because it was he, Dan Meyers, and Bill Valenti who began HPA.
  • NICK WILLIAMS: Uh huh, they were all instrumental.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yes, yes.
  • So how was the response in this city to a gay men's chorus?
  • NICK WILLIAMS: I think I'm the wrong person
  • to ask that question to.
  • Because I was too intimately involved
  • with the inner workings of it to really know how
  • the audience responded.
  • And is there one answer to that question?
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Probably not.
  • NICK WILLIAMS: To me, the main purpose of a gay course
  • is to put the face on what being gay is all about.
  • Because back in the '80s, everyone said,
  • oh, those people.
  • And who are those people?
  • So being a gay men's chorus, you had to be out there.
  • And you, literally, were the face of what a gay man was.
  • And of course, that really created a lot of conflicts
  • because there are a certain group of society
  • that want gay men to look as straight as humanly possible.
  • And if you're not straight, if you're up there
  • and you're bringing the elements of drag
  • or you're bringing the elements of leather--
  • which are also part of the culture--
  • then you are misrepresenting what being gay is.
  • So that part of society was very angry at us,
  • especially when we did the cheerleaders in the gay parade.
  • And we had, what, eight cheerleaders
  • who danced all the way down through the gay parade.
  • People were livid at us, and not all people, but some.
  • Because the representation that we were showing to
  • the public is that gay men like to dress as women.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: The image.
  • NICK WILLIAMS: Yeah, and then you also
  • had the ultra leather one.
  • And are we really that?
  • The response from Rochester is the same response
  • that you got to drag queens or leather bars.
  • When we stayed moderate, we weren't an issue.
  • But when we attempted to put in the different venues of what
  • being gay could be, then it became a conflict
  • within the city as we as a culture evolved.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Within the Gay Men's Chorus
  • was there a similar--
  • NICK WILLIAMS: Conflict?
  • Yes--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: --conflict--
  • NICK WILLIAMS: --yes, always.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: --and was, therefore,
  • part of your job to educate your fellow chorus members, to bring
  • them to a level of understanding that
  • perhaps wasn't there before?
  • NICK WILLIAMS: You always did that, because you always
  • got new members.
  • And that part never ended.
  • And you also had to push the limits in a gentle way.
  • That there is drag, I'm not going
  • to require that you do drag.
  • But drag can be used in a concert.
  • We brought in Aggie Dune several times.
  • And I thought those were very successful.
  • Gary Keleher and I did a spokesmodel routine
  • that we did all in drag for one of the concerts.
  • Then we also tried--
  • well if we're going to do that part of the gay culture,
  • we also need to bring in the leather
  • part of the gay culture.
  • So we would try to bring in leather men.
  • But those are not as defined.
  • That's a more nebulous definition.
  • Coming out is a continual process.
  • I mean, we always had members that
  • never wanted to be videotaped, recorded,
  • have their faces seen.
  • Even after I left, there were still those people
  • that were involved.
  • And there probably still are, you know.
  • So coming out, you have to look--
  • we are performing at this public venue.
  • Some of you will not be comfortable performing there.
  • You don't have to show up.
  • But there were enough that really wanted to do that
  • and who wanted to be public that you just did it anyway.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: So talk to me about some of the changes.
  • In the '80s-- early '80s, of course--
  • there were many, many gay bars.
  • And social avenues were not available other
  • than going out to the bars.
  • Talk to me a little bit about the fear
  • that existed in the community and therefore in the chorus
  • in terms of being visible, in terms of being out,
  • in terms of presenting yourself with an identity that could not
  • be disputed.
  • NICK WILLIAMS: Uh huh, in some respects,
  • that's a hard question.
  • In some respects, that's a non-issue question.
  • The non-issue part is that every gay person
  • has to decide where they are going to be visible.
  • And so if you want to be visible only within a small group
  • of friends, then you only do that within a small group
  • of friends.
  • If you want to be visible at the bars only,
  • then you only go to the bars.
  • The Gay Men's Chorus created a space for gay men
  • to come together that was not bar related.
  • So there was a very strong social aspect to it.
  • But it also then put those gay men on stage
  • at venues that we hopefully were able to control
  • most of the time so that there was a comfort
  • level for people to be there.
  • But when you are walking down in a gay pride parade,
  • you don't know who's going to be in the sidelines looking.
  • And so finding--
  • I don't know where I want to go with this.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: The level of risk is different.
  • NICK WILLIAMS: And some people, John Owen, John McIntyre,
  • didn't really care, you know.
  • They were just always out there.
  • They didn't have any levels of hiding, you know.
  • They were out in every aspect of their life.
  • And yet there were other members of whom
  • I won't mention because I don't know where
  • their level of comfort still is, who any time we did something
  • very public would not show up.
  • They felt comfortable doing it within a auditorium
  • that we rented because the people that
  • would come into the audience generally were friends
  • and supporters, you know.
  • I don't think we had many picketers at many
  • of our concerts.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: No no, I don't remember any, personally.
  • And your audience would know that they were coming to see--
  • NICK WILLIAMS: To a gay event, so they are self-selective.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Right, but if you can, talk to me
  • about in the society--
  • not the chorus and not these venues--
  • what was the prevailing emotional response
  • to being outed or to coming out?
  • What was the fear?
  • Why were people afraid?
  • What was going to happen to them that--
  • NICK WILLIAMS: Well that's the unknown fear isn't it?
  • I mean I'm guilty of that in teaching in that for a while,
  • I changed the name that I used.
  • I've reversed my names and called Bill Nichols
  • that I had published.
  • It's the unknown fear because you don't
  • know what's going to happen.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: But for those people who were out
  • and things did happen to, my understanding
  • is they lost their job, they may have
  • been asked to not rent space anymore in an apartment
  • building, or they were harassed by--
  • NICK WILLIAMS: Or beaten up.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: --or beaten up.
  • So there were tangible fears.
  • There was a reality that went beyond just
  • my own internal fear, because things did happen.
  • Being gay was not acceptable.
  • So a teacher could--
  • NICK WILLIAMS: Have been fired.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: --have been fired.
  • NICK WILLIAMS: In my early years, yes.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Someone in any job
  • could be fired if they were identified as gay.
  • Politicians certainly weren't out.
  • I've heard rumors about Steve May and Mayor Barry
  • and some people like that.
  • But there were other politicians who
  • were on council, who were in the legislature, who were--
  • NICK WILLIAMS: Right, but is--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: --who were gay who didn't come out.
  • NICK WILLIAMS: My focus was never
  • to focus on that aspect with the Gay Men's Chorus.
  • My focus was to focus on what is a positive public image that
  • can be presented.
  • Because you need to educate society what a gay person looks
  • like.
  • Because they didn't know.
  • Now they probably did, but we all wear blinders.
  • So my goal was always to show them
  • what a gay person is, talk about what a gay person feels.
  • All the songs that we did were related, somehow to
  • what we felt as gay men.
  • Or I tried to pull in the lesbian aspect
  • just by the songs that we chose.
  • Because there were many wonderful songs
  • that were done by lesbian composers
  • that I tried to put in.
  • And we can all relate to those emotional issues
  • that are being put forward.
  • So yes, those hedonistic things happened.
  • People were hurt.
  • All the things you said, happened.
  • They were truth.
  • You can't deny the truth of that.
  • But the only way to make a change
  • is to give what being gay is a persona, a face, a name,
  • make them a real human being.
  • And that's what we did.
  • We made being gay no longer an ambivalent statement.
  • But we brought it into a face.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And concretized it.
  • What effect did AIDS have--
  • NICK WILLIAMS: AIDS was devastating.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: --on the chorus and on the chorus's life?
  • 1981 was when Bill Valenti first saw the AIDS virus.
  • But it wasn't until '86 that we had AIDS Rochester.
  • And the chorus was well into its adolescence, minimally.
  • NICK WILLIAMS: Rochester was a bubble
  • that was very unusual to the rest of the country.
  • Because I think we have a high level
  • of education in Rochester, generally.
  • And so yes, there were a lot of deaths.
  • And I'm not going to negate that those deaths did not occur.
  • But I think in the Rochester area,
  • we had less deaths than in other parts of the country.
  • If you look at San Francisco and you look that they literally
  • had more people die of AIDS from '85 to '90 than we had
  • in our entire chorus--
  • probably twice as many, if not more than that.
  • So they really had to deal with death significantly stronger
  • than we did.
  • Because in our area, I think we only
  • had two to three members that I know
  • of that passed away of AIDS--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: At that time.
  • NICK WILLIAMS: --at that time.
  • And that's why I think that Rochester is a bubble.
  • Because we had people like Bill Valenti,
  • we had people like Jerry Algozer and Dan Meyers
  • who were out there really trying to educate Rochester
  • in terms of what you need to do to keep yourself healthy.
  • And people listened.
  • But in other cities, I think maybe because of the size--
  • I don't know, but I do know that the death rate in Rochester
  • and my exposure to the death rate
  • was significantly less than in other cities.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Did it change what you chose to sing?
  • Did it change what you presented?
  • NICK WILLIAMS: Yes, yes.
  • There was a whole series of songs
  • that were written at that time about the AIDS experience,
  • and about death, and about losing people.
  • So we did put songs in concerts that
  • talked about the loss of someone,
  • that talked about death, that talked about what AIDS is like.
  • Because that was part of who we were as gay men.
  • And that part needed to be talked about.
  • There were some wonderful pieces that
  • were written, oh, Dance on Your Grave is one of the pieces--
  • Naked Man was the name of the set.
  • And it was sixteen pieces.
  • And this was written through the San Francisco Gay Men's Chorus.
  • And they just literally took people's experience,
  • men's experience, wrote the words into lyrics
  • and then set them to music.
  • And they were a very powerful piece of music.
  • Marry Us, which happened just before the very first--
  • when was the first time that gay marriage was denied?
  • It went up to a vote, and then it was denied.
  • '92?
  • EVELYN BAILEY: '92.
  • NICK WILLIAMS: And so this song was written just prior
  • to that, this series of songs.
  • Because the vote had just happened in Congress,
  • or wherever it happened.
  • We were at a national convention.
  • And we were all in the audience.
  • And we're talking 3,000 to 4,000 gay and lesbian individuals
  • in this audience in San Francisco
  • is up there singing-- and saying the vote has just happened.
  • And we will not be allowed to marry.
  • And then they sang this song, Marry Us.
  • Just the emotional waves and the tears
  • that were in the audience, it was remarkable.
  • So yeah, we sing about our lives. (laughs)
  • And that was part of our life going back to AIDS.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Do you have any comments or sense
  • about the response this community in particular
  • made to the AIDS crisis versus what
  • happened in San Francisco or even other cities
  • that you may have sung in?
  • Because historically, I think Rochester is unique.
  • NICK WILLIAMS: Yes, I agree.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: It is actually the third city, preceded
  • by New York and San Francisco, in which the AIDS epidemic had
  • a positive public response.
  • The grassroots efforts that arose
  • to help gay men, initially, then lesbians, then
  • the straight population to deal with the inevitable economic
  • crisis that was created--
  • because you couldn't work, you couldn't go out and buy food,
  • you couldn't take care of yourself.
  • And so the response here was--
  • I mean for a city our size--
  • NICK WILLIAMS: It was a huge response.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: It was huge.
  • And not to minimize what happened in other cities,
  • but comparatively, we had research at Strong going on.
  • We had AIDS Rochester beginning.
  • We had the Gay Alliance forming groups.
  • You had other church groups, interfaith advocates,
  • the whole nine yards.
  • And eventually, all of that money
  • started to come through the pipeline.
  • So there was not the need in HPA for grassroots organizations
  • to provide funds for taking care of our own.
  • But that has always been a real strong value,
  • I think, in this community, that we do take care of our own.
  • NICK WILLIAMS: Yeah, I don't think I can respond to that.
  • Because I don't know enough of what other cities did.
  • I mean, to me, AIDS was a devastating thing
  • because of the loss of creativity that was done.
  • Mark Reese who was an incredibly talented arranger,
  • died very early in the AIDS epidemic.
  • And he had done three or four arrangements
  • for New York City that were fabulous.
  • No more.
  • The dance, the theater, the populations were hit so strong.
  • The creativity level of this country
  • dropped with the AIDS epidemic.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Then it turned around.
  • Then AIDS no longer was the instant killer.
  • It became a chronic disease with which people could live.
  • And so the urgency, the fear certainly
  • subsided once people understood how
  • the disease was transmitted, how you contract AIDS.
  • NICK WILLIAMS: And I think Rochester, again,
  • because of what Bill Valenti did specifically,
  • we learned that lesson sooner.
  • Because I know some of the members
  • of the chorus who have been dealing
  • with HIV since the late '80s.
  • They're still alive.
  • They're still strong.
  • They're going to live a very normal life.
  • But that was not true for many people.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Right, so once we moved kind of beyond the crisis
  • stage and--
  • NICK WILLIAMS: Well, that took a few years. (laughs)
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Well, yes, a number of years.
  • The chronic stage of AIDS has only really come into existence
  • probably in the past ten.
  • But again, the lives of men and women changed.
  • And was the chorus focused in a political agenda?
  • NICK WILLIAMS: We were not allowed
  • to be focused in a political agenda legally.
  • Because we have a 503(c) status, which means that we cannot
  • support political causes.
  • Now that being said, we never overtly supported any
  • one political person.
  • Did we did we sing about values that
  • were important to us, that may have come up
  • to the political venues?
  • Yes.
  • Did we sing about marriage for gay people?
  • Yes.
  • Did we sing about changing the culture, you know,
  • to create opportunities?
  • Yes.
  • So being the fact that you're gay means you're political.
  • Period.
  • I mean, because we put the word gay in our title consciously.
  • We could have been the Rochester Men's Chorus, but we weren't.
  • We were the Rochester Gay Men's Chorus
  • because we wanted to create change.
  • And we didn't use the word political change
  • because I think it was more levels than just politically.
  • But our mission was to create change
  • for the betterment of gay and lesbian
  • to the transgendered and LGBT individuals within the city
  • and within the nation.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Do you think the chorus has been successful--
  • NICK WILLIAMS: Yes--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: --in that?
  • NICK WILLIAMS: --I do.
  • Now we were not the only one doing that.
  • But you have to attack any issue at many levels.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Right, what is the reason--
  • well, does the purpose for the chorus's existence still exist.
  • NICK WILLIAMS: I thought of that.
  • And I'd actually had a conversation
  • about that with Rob Strauss, who's the current director just
  • recently.
  • And I think the answer is yes.
  • Yes, we have come a long distance.
  • But we still don't have marriage as a unevocable right.
  • It's still something that is controlled by other people.
  • Whereas, how do you control emotions?
  • How do you control things?
  • So yeah, there still is a need.
  • Is it the same desperate need to go out there?
  • No, because the media has changed dramatically.
  • When I-- thirty years ago, there was no such thing
  • as a gay person on TV.
  • That didn't exist.
  • And now you turn on TV, and every other sitcom
  • has a gay person.
  • They're often stereotypical, but at least it's out there.
  • It's being seen by the general population.
  • It's got a face.
  • So that has really changed significantly.
  • Brokeback Mountain, who would have imagined you
  • could have a movie about two gay men and the relationship
  • they had as a major movie presentation outside
  • of the gay film festivals?
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Where do you go from here or--
  • NICK WILLIAMS: I don't know.
  • I don't know where I am going.
  • I retired three, two and one half years ago.
  • And I retired to take care of my partner who died of cancer.
  • So as I've often said to people, I feel like I'm a teenager.
  • Because I don't know what I'm going to do when I grow up
  • (Bailey laughs).
  • So I don't know where I'm going from here.
  • I have not answered the question.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: (pause) When you were young,
  • did you grow up in Rochester?
  • NICK WILLIAMS: I did.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And was it a friendly place to be gay?
  • Or when did you come out?
  • NICK WILLIAMS: I came out in '76, the bicentennial, when
  • I was twenty years old.
  • And I was in college at the time and then that was in Potsdam.
  • I moved back here in '77 after I graduated.
  • And I got a job in Hilton.
  • And I was the typical disco bunny of the '80s,
  • going out to the discos every weekend and dancing.
  • And that really was my life.
  • I was very stereotypically gay with the bar scene
  • at that point.
  • And that's just not where I want to go anymore.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Right, were there resources available to you?
  • NICK WILLIAMS: The Gay Alliance was there.
  • I hooked up with a man.
  • And we were very much involved with the Gay Alliance
  • in '78, '79, '80, '81.
  • You know, I did the Speakers Bureau routine,
  • which was then going strong.
  • So I was not even there in the beginning of it.
  • It was already going when I stepped into it.
  • Dick became president of the Gay Alliance-- co-president
  • with Elaine.
  • I forget Elaine's--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Smith.
  • NICK WILLIAMS: And they were co-presidents.
  • So I was the first lady for a while.
  • And I got to have all the party functions, which was great.
  • So I did things around the Gay Alliance.
  • And I was there doing volunteer work.
  • That's where I met Ralph Carter.
  • That's where I met David Knoll.
  • It was all through the Gay Alliance
  • and what we were all doing.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: As a young person now, aside from--
  • when you were 20, there were the bars.
  • There was the Gay Alliance.
  • Was there anything--
  • NICK WILLIAMS: If there was, I don't know about it.
  • The Men's Dinner Group, I don't think existed at that point.
  • The Gay Chorus certainly did not exist.
  • You just networked. (laughs) You just networked.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah, and the bar scene
  • really was the primary gathering place for--
  • NICK WILLIAMS: And that was never really my scene.
  • I did it because what else do you do?
  • But that was never where I wanted to be.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Mm-hm, mm-hm.
  • How would you say Rochester has changed
  • over your lifetime in terms of its comfortableness
  • with LGBT community and issues?
  • NICK WILLIAMS: I think it's the same as society in general,
  • I don't think that Rochester has any significant difference.
  • Except, Rochester, because of the amount
  • of colleges that are in this town,
  • has a very high educational level.
  • And so consequently, I think Rochester has always
  • been slightly more accepting of the LGBT community than a more
  • rural community or a more isolated city.
  • So yeah, we had Tom Mooney with the Rochester
  • Chamber of Commerce, who is very anti-gay, you know.
  • And still we were able to do things.
  • We rented the Chamber of Commerce in '85.
  • He didn't want us to.
  • But we were able to because of the city council ordinance
  • that had just gone through.
  • We were able to maneuver.
  • We were able to act.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Mm-hm.
  • where do you see the chorus going?
  • NICK WILLIAMS: Not my question anymore, is it?
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Any more.
  • NICK WILLIAMS: They're going in a direction
  • that I'm happy they're going.
  • It's not a direction I want to go in.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: In terms of gay rights and gay activism,
  • what's our either next or continuing challenge
  • as a community?
  • We don't have all of what we want.
  • NICK WILLIAMS: No.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: So what's the next-- what
  • do you see as the next step?
  • NICK WILLIAMS: It's a continuation
  • of what we're already doing.
  • But we need to find people who feel that what we're doing
  • is still vitally important--
  • coming out, getting people to understand
  • who we are as human beings, making
  • people realize that we are not a threat, we are not pedophiles,
  • we are not all of those horrible things
  • that back in the '50s and '60s people were told we were,
  • you know.
  • We are normal human beings who are productive,
  • who simply lead a life with a person of a gender
  • that we choose.
  • There is no other difference.
  • But society still doesn't get that there
  • isn't any other difference.
  • And so we need to keep educating society.
  • We are normal.
  • We're not going away.
  • We've been part of the human race since its very inception.
  • Just get used to it.
  • We're not going to hinder the choices
  • you make as long as you don't hinder the choices that we
  • make.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Mm-hm.
  • Is there anything you would like to say?
  • Or, is there any-- how would you like to be remembered?
  • NICK WILLIAMS: How would I like to be remembered?
  • Boy, you're really going deep into the psyche.
  • That's-- I have often said that if I die today,
  • I have lived a valued life.
  • I have really tried to create change within the society
  • that I've lived in.
  • I have not been passive about it.
  • I've been pretty active about it.
  • I have really tried to create a space where we can grow
  • and we can become who we want to be.
  • And I think I've been active in trying to create that space
  • and trying to bring together people to help create spaces
  • of that nature.
  • So I don't know.
  • Where do I want to go?
  • What do I want to do?
  • Do I have any regrets?
  • I don't have answers for those questions yet.
  • As I said, I'm still a teenager.
  • (laughter)
  • NICK WILLIAMS: I got to figure that out. (laughs)
  • EVELYN BAILEY: So being a teenager,
  • what would you say to a young person who's
  • just beginning this journey?
  • NICK WILLIAMS: Do not be inhibited by what other people
  • tell you that you should be.
  • Be who you believe in your heart you are.
  • And follow your heart.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Well you have certainly
  • done that over the course of your lifetime.
  • And I believe the city of Rochester
  • is far better because of it.
  • And your contributions to the chorus and to the gay community
  • are extremely important and significant because you
  • have been who you are and have tried
  • to live that with integrity and visibly so that we can--
  • all of us-- be more comfortable, not only in our own skins,
  • but with each other.
  • So thank you.
  • NICK WILLIAMS: No, it's been my pleasure.
  • I've had a great life.
  • So I'm not going to complain. (laughs)