Audio Interview, Nicholas Williams, January 8, 2013
- EVELYN BAILEY: Today is Tuesday, January 8th, 2013.
- And I'm sitting here in the Gay Alliance
- Library with Nick Williams, who was instrumental
- in the Gay Men's Chorus beginnings way back in--
- well, it's now twenty-two years ago or twenty-one?
- NICK WILLIAMS: Thirty--
- 1982.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Thirty years ago, 1982.
- First of all, tell me why the idea ever
- came into anyone's mind to do this, if you remember.
- NICK WILLIAMS: Well, it goes back
- to the early '80s when San Francisco Gay Men's
- Chorus started.
- And they'd had this great idea to do a national tour.
- And as they did the national tour and they sang,
- it got other people involved and saying,
- well geez, if San Francisco can do it,
- why can't we do it and create a sense of community?
- So there was a man in Madison, Wisconsin
- by the name of Kent Peterson.
- And he was a student in Madison.
- And he saw them.
- And he helped form the Madison Gay Men's Chorus.
- And his partner then studied at the U of R.
- So they moved to Rochester.
- And so he wanted to create a gay men's chorus in Rochester.
- And there was also David Knoll, who
- was just beginning the Genesee Valley Credit Union
- and was also part of the Gay Alliance as well.
- And he had asked me if I would start a gay men's chorus.
- And I had said I can't do that.
- I don't have the skill set to be able to start a gay men's
- chorus.
- So Kent Petersen came into town.
- The two of them connected.
- And they put up posters.
- And so they created the first advertisement
- of the Gay Men's Chorus, which was November of 1982.
- And I saw the poster.
- And I showed up at the first rehearsal.
- After about three rehearsals, being that I have a big mouth,
- I went up to Kent.
- And I said, Kent, here's some issues that I'm seeing.
- And here are some possible solutions that I'm seeing.
- And he said, well, Nick why don't you
- become co-conductor with me?
- And I said, OK, I can do co-conductor.
- And then he left town the following June
- because his partner went on to school in another city.
- And so they went off to another city, which then left
- the Gay Men's Chorus in my lap.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Wow, I never knew that.
- (laughter)
- But you have a background in music.
- NICK WILLIAMS: Correct, I have two degrees in music,
- one from Crane, one from Eastman.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And is that choral or is it--
- NICK WILLIAMS: No, the degrees--
- EVELYN BAILEY: --instrument.
- NICK WILLIAMS: --the degrees are in music ed,
- because that's what I did is I taught music
- in the public schools.
- So my instrument was piano.
- It wasn't voice.
- I took it over.
- And I said I need to learn what singing is all about.
- So David McFarlane, who is a singer
- who then moved to San Francisco, I
- started taking lessons with him.
- And I haven't stopped taking voice lessons
- from that point in time.
- I mean I'm still taking voice lessons.
- And still singing.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Wow.
- So you found out what singing was all about, or that process.
- And you remained conductor of the gay men's chorus
- for how many years?
- NICK WILLIAMS: Was it twenty-four?
- It was twenty-two out of twenty-four years.
- I was conductor until 1990.
- And in 1990, I quit because of many things that were going on,
- some related to my job at school, some relating
- to the personality conflicts, which
- occur in any organization.
- They went through a series of two conductors, three actually,
- and then they were looking for a long-term one.
- And that was two years later.
- And I said, well, I think I'm ready to come back.
- So I applied.
- And I got the job in 1992.
- And I kept that till I stepped down in 2006, 2007, somewhere
- in there.
- I don't remember which year.
- EVELYN BAILEY: OK, so talk to me a little bit
- about being in front of a audience on the stage
- or at Doopsie, right?
- NICK WILLIAMS: Well it depends.
- In the beginning, we were at Calvary Saint Andrew's.
- Then after Calvary Saint Andrew's, we went to Doopsie.
- And then after Doopsie, we did most of our concerts
- at Hochstein.
- But we also did concerts at the Chamber of Commerce.
- Back in '85, we did concerts at the Xerox Auditorium,
- when that was available.
- We did concerts at the Rochester Museum and Science Center
- auditorium.
- We did them at MCC.
- So we really had to explore what concert venues were
- available to us in the city of Rochester.
- EVELYN BAILEY: So being visible in the Gay Men's Chorus,
- how did you negotiate that with your teaching
- in public schools?
- Because at that time it was not quite
- acceptable to be a gay teacher.
- NICK WILLIAMS: Well and that goes back to Proposition 13
- in California where they were trying
- to remove all gay people from public school settings
- because they didn't feel it was appropriate to expose children.
- I just decided I was going to do it.
- And I think 1990, part of that was the conflict of--
- I was teaching at a high school.
- At that point I had transferred up to the high school level.
- And when you're doing a high school
- and you want to develop a program, if you're gay,
- it doesn't attract the boys.
- And being a chorus, you need the boys as well as the girls.
- So I think that was part of the reason I stopped conducting
- in 1990, as well as some other interpersonal conflicts that
- were going on within the chorus.
- So that wasn't the only reason.
- And I just decided that you need to do what
- you have the convictions to do.
- And so I just said, well, there will be issues
- and there will be problems.
- And I will deal with them when they arise.
- And I just went and did it.
- And when I stepped down from the chorus, the Director of--
- I forget what her title--
- Public Relations, I guess-- came up to me and said,
- Nick, how can you step down from the Gay Men's Chorus?
- You're famous.
- You're out there.
- And I thought, yeah, but that's not why I did it.
- I didn't leave the chorus for that reasons.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Did you experience negative response
- from your school?
- NICK WILLIAMS: You're walking down the hall
- and being called a faggot as a teacher by the students.
- That was definitely there.
- But what are you going to do?
- You just hold your head where you're going to be.
- And you set your standards.
- And by the end--
- the whole idea of what a gay person is
- has changed so dramatically in the last thirty years.
- By the end, I think it was a non-issue.
- EVELYN BAILEY: The administration?
- NICK WILLIAMS: They all knew.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Were they supportive, not supportive?
- Or did they just make it a non-issue also?
- NICK WILLIAMS: I think they made it a non-issue because I
- never--
- I'm very good at segmenting my life.
- And so school was school.
- Our GMC was our GMC.
- And there was a wall between them.
- And I didn't let them meet.
- Now when I wanted to start a gay youth support
- group in the school systems, I was told no,
- that I could not create that and I could not start that
- within the school systems.
- Now someone else at a later time was able to start that.
- And that now exists in Hilton.
- But that did not exist for many years.
- EVELYN BAILEY: So what was your primary motivation
- in staying with the chorus for that long initially?
- NICK WILLIAMS: I liked the guys, friendship,
- the sense of community.
- And for me, it was fulfilling musically for quite a while.
- At the end, I think it was time for-- my musical tastes were
- changing.
- And they were not aligning with what the chorus wanted to do.
- So I think that was one of the major reasons why
- I left at the end, so that I could pursue music in the way
- that I wanted to pursue music, not in the venue that they
- were going.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And who began the Rochettes?
- NICK WILLIAMS: The Rochettes started--
- I did.
- At least I'm the one that pushed them.
- When we went to a conference in 1986,
- I believe, in Minneapolis there was many--
- we are a small chorus.
- Rochester has never really gotten
- over the fifty- member mark.
- But if you go to some of the larger cities
- where they are isolated, you have
- choruses of 150 to 200 men.
- And so we saw the Seattle Men's Chorus.
- They are not the Gay Men's Chorus.
- They're just the Men's Chorus.
- And they had a subgroup that tap danced.
- And it was just heaven on earth to see gay men up there tap
- dancing.
- So we came back and said, well jeez, why can't we do it?
- So we contacted Kayla Allen, who we got through Jerry Algozer.
- And she agreed to teach people how to tap.
- And I did not tap, initially, because I thought well that's--
- separate conductor versus performance.
- And that lasted all of six months
- before I started tapping.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Now was Jerry Algozer part
- of the Gay Men's Chorus?
- NICK WILLIAMS: No, we did a lot of semi-theatrical things
- back in the '80s.
- At Xerox, we did the Man in the Moon and the Lady
- where we had Cecile Sane come in.
- And so we hired Jerry to help us with the artistic directing,
- to pull it together to make it more of a show orientation
- verses a chorus concert orientation.
- And he did that for two or three different shows that we did.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Because then he left.
- NICK WILLIAMS: Right, then he left town,
- and he went down to Florida.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right, right.
- Now he's in New York City.
- NICK WILLIAMS: Oh, OK.
- I did not know that.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah, I invited him
- to come for the HPA official reception by the Smithsonian.
- And he was coming, but it rained the night before.
- And all of the tunnels were flooded.
- NICK WILLIAMS: Oh my Lord.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And all of the roadways that he could
- access to get out were flooded.
- So he couldn't get here.
- It's my hope that he will come at some point
- and we can videotape him.
- Because it was he, Dan Meyers, and Bill Valenti who began HPA.
- NICK WILLIAMS: Uh huh, they were all instrumental.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yes, yes.
- So how was the response in this city to a gay men's chorus?
- NICK WILLIAMS: I think I'm the wrong person
- to ask that question to.
- Because I was too intimately involved
- with the inner workings of it to really know how
- the audience responded.
- And is there one answer to that question?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Probably not.
- NICK WILLIAMS: To me, the main purpose of a gay course
- is to put the face on what being gay is all about.
- Because back in the '80s, everyone said,
- oh, those people.
- And who are those people?
- So being a gay men's chorus, you had to be out there.
- And you, literally, were the face of what a gay man was.
- And of course, that really created a lot of conflicts
- because there are a certain group of society
- that want gay men to look as straight as humanly possible.
- And if you're not straight, if you're up there
- and you're bringing the elements of drag
- or you're bringing the elements of leather--
- which are also part of the culture--
- then you are misrepresenting what being gay is.
- So that part of society was very angry at us,
- especially when we did the cheerleaders in the gay parade.
- And we had, what, eight cheerleaders
- who danced all the way down through the gay parade.
- People were livid at us, and not all people, but some.
- Because the representation that we were showing to
- the public is that gay men like to dress as women.
- EVELYN BAILEY: The image.
- NICK WILLIAMS: Yeah, and then you also
- had the ultra leather one.
- And are we really that?
- The response from Rochester is the same response
- that you got to drag queens or leather bars.
- When we stayed moderate, we weren't an issue.
- But when we attempted to put in the different venues of what
- being gay could be, then it became a conflict
- within the city as we as a culture evolved.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Within the Gay Men's Chorus
- was there a similar--
- NICK WILLIAMS: Conflict?
- Yes--
- EVELYN BAILEY: --conflict--
- NICK WILLIAMS: --yes, always.
- EVELYN BAILEY: --and was, therefore,
- part of your job to educate your fellow chorus members, to bring
- them to a level of understanding that
- perhaps wasn't there before?
- NICK WILLIAMS: You always did that, because you always
- got new members.
- And that part never ended.
- And you also had to push the limits in a gentle way.
- That there is drag, I'm not going
- to require that you do drag.
- But drag can be used in a concert.
- We brought in Aggie Dune several times.
- And I thought those were very successful.
- Gary Keleher and I did a spokesmodel routine
- that we did all in drag for one of the concerts.
- Then we also tried--
- well if we're going to do that part of the gay culture,
- we also need to bring in the leather
- part of the gay culture.
- So we would try to bring in leather men.
- But those are not as defined.
- That's a more nebulous definition.
- Coming out is a continual process.
- I mean, we always had members that
- never wanted to be videotaped, recorded,
- have their faces seen.
- Even after I left, there were still those people
- that were involved.
- And there probably still are, you know.
- So coming out, you have to look--
- we are performing at this public venue.
- Some of you will not be comfortable performing there.
- You don't have to show up.
- But there were enough that really wanted to do that
- and who wanted to be public that you just did it anyway.
- EVELYN BAILEY: So talk to me about some of the changes.
- In the '80s-- early '80s, of course--
- there were many, many gay bars.
- And social avenues were not available other
- than going out to the bars.
- Talk to me a little bit about the fear
- that existed in the community and therefore in the chorus
- in terms of being visible, in terms of being out,
- in terms of presenting yourself with an identity that could not
- be disputed.
- NICK WILLIAMS: Uh huh, in some respects,
- that's a hard question.
- In some respects, that's a non-issue question.
- The non-issue part is that every gay person
- has to decide where they are going to be visible.
- And so if you want to be visible only within a small group
- of friends, then you only do that within a small group
- of friends.
- If you want to be visible at the bars only,
- then you only go to the bars.
- The Gay Men's Chorus created a space for gay men
- to come together that was not bar related.
- So there was a very strong social aspect to it.
- But it also then put those gay men on stage
- at venues that we hopefully were able to control
- most of the time so that there was a comfort
- level for people to be there.
- But when you are walking down in a gay pride parade,
- you don't know who's going to be in the sidelines looking.
- And so finding--
- I don't know where I want to go with this.
- EVELYN BAILEY: The level of risk is different.
- NICK WILLIAMS: And some people, John Owen, John McIntyre,
- didn't really care, you know.
- They were just always out there.
- They didn't have any levels of hiding, you know.
- They were out in every aspect of their life.
- And yet there were other members of whom
- I won't mention because I don't know where
- their level of comfort still is, who any time we did something
- very public would not show up.
- They felt comfortable doing it within a auditorium
- that we rented because the people that
- would come into the audience generally were friends
- and supporters, you know.
- I don't think we had many picketers at many
- of our concerts.
- EVELYN BAILEY: No no, I don't remember any, personally.
- And your audience would know that they were coming to see--
- NICK WILLIAMS: To a gay event, so they are self-selective.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right, but if you can, talk to me
- about in the society--
- not the chorus and not these venues--
- what was the prevailing emotional response
- to being outed or to coming out?
- What was the fear?
- Why were people afraid?
- What was going to happen to them that--
- NICK WILLIAMS: Well that's the unknown fear isn't it?
- I mean I'm guilty of that in teaching in that for a while,
- I changed the name that I used.
- I've reversed my names and called Bill Nichols
- that I had published.
- It's the unknown fear because you don't
- know what's going to happen.
- EVELYN BAILEY: But for those people who were out
- and things did happen to, my understanding
- is they lost their job, they may have
- been asked to not rent space anymore in an apartment
- building, or they were harassed by--
- NICK WILLIAMS: Or beaten up.
- EVELYN BAILEY: --or beaten up.
- So there were tangible fears.
- There was a reality that went beyond just
- my own internal fear, because things did happen.
- Being gay was not acceptable.
- So a teacher could--
- NICK WILLIAMS: Have been fired.
- EVELYN BAILEY: --have been fired.
- NICK WILLIAMS: In my early years, yes.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Someone in any job
- could be fired if they were identified as gay.
- Politicians certainly weren't out.
- I've heard rumors about Steve May and Mayor Barry
- and some people like that.
- But there were other politicians who
- were on council, who were in the legislature, who were--
- NICK WILLIAMS: Right, but is--
- EVELYN BAILEY: --who were gay who didn't come out.
- NICK WILLIAMS: My focus was never
- to focus on that aspect with the Gay Men's Chorus.
- My focus was to focus on what is a positive public image that
- can be presented.
- Because you need to educate society what a gay person looks
- like.
- Because they didn't know.
- Now they probably did, but we all wear blinders.
- So my goal was always to show them
- what a gay person is, talk about what a gay person feels.
- All the songs that we did were related, somehow to
- what we felt as gay men.
- Or I tried to pull in the lesbian aspect
- just by the songs that we chose.
- Because there were many wonderful songs
- that were done by lesbian composers
- that I tried to put in.
- And we can all relate to those emotional issues
- that are being put forward.
- So yes, those hedonistic things happened.
- People were hurt.
- All the things you said, happened.
- They were truth.
- You can't deny the truth of that.
- But the only way to make a change
- is to give what being gay is a persona, a face, a name,
- make them a real human being.
- And that's what we did.
- We made being gay no longer an ambivalent statement.
- But we brought it into a face.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And concretized it.
- What effect did AIDS have--
- NICK WILLIAMS: AIDS was devastating.
- EVELYN BAILEY: --on the chorus and on the chorus's life?
- 1981 was when Bill Valenti first saw the AIDS virus.
- But it wasn't until '86 that we had AIDS Rochester.
- And the chorus was well into its adolescence, minimally.
- NICK WILLIAMS: Rochester was a bubble
- that was very unusual to the rest of the country.
- Because I think we have a high level
- of education in Rochester, generally.
- And so yes, there were a lot of deaths.
- And I'm not going to negate that those deaths did not occur.
- But I think in the Rochester area,
- we had less deaths than in other parts of the country.
- If you look at San Francisco and you look that they literally
- had more people die of AIDS from '85 to '90 than we had
- in our entire chorus--
- probably twice as many, if not more than that.
- So they really had to deal with death significantly stronger
- than we did.
- Because in our area, I think we only
- had two to three members that I know
- of that passed away of AIDS--
- EVELYN BAILEY: At that time.
- NICK WILLIAMS: --at that time.
- And that's why I think that Rochester is a bubble.
- Because we had people like Bill Valenti,
- we had people like Jerry Algozer and Dan Meyers
- who were out there really trying to educate Rochester
- in terms of what you need to do to keep yourself healthy.
- And people listened.
- But in other cities, I think maybe because of the size--
- I don't know, but I do know that the death rate in Rochester
- and my exposure to the death rate
- was significantly less than in other cities.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Did it change what you chose to sing?
- Did it change what you presented?
- NICK WILLIAMS: Yes, yes.
- There was a whole series of songs
- that were written at that time about the AIDS experience,
- and about death, and about losing people.
- So we did put songs in concerts that
- talked about the loss of someone,
- that talked about death, that talked about what AIDS is like.
- Because that was part of who we were as gay men.
- And that part needed to be talked about.
- There were some wonderful pieces that
- were written, oh, Dance on Your Grave is one of the pieces--
- Naked Man was the name of the set.
- And it was sixteen pieces.
- And this was written through the San Francisco Gay Men's Chorus.
- And they just literally took people's experience,
- men's experience, wrote the words into lyrics
- and then set them to music.
- And they were a very powerful piece of music.
- Marry Us, which happened just before the very first--
- when was the first time that gay marriage was denied?
- It went up to a vote, and then it was denied.
- '92?
- EVELYN BAILEY: '92.
- NICK WILLIAMS: And so this song was written just prior
- to that, this series of songs.
- Because the vote had just happened in Congress,
- or wherever it happened.
- We were at a national convention.
- And we were all in the audience.
- And we're talking 3,000 to 4,000 gay and lesbian individuals
- in this audience in San Francisco
- is up there singing-- and saying the vote has just happened.
- And we will not be allowed to marry.
- And then they sang this song, Marry Us.
- Just the emotional waves and the tears
- that were in the audience, it was remarkable.
- So yeah, we sing about our lives. (laughs)
- And that was part of our life going back to AIDS.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Do you have any comments or sense
- about the response this community in particular
- made to the AIDS crisis versus what
- happened in San Francisco or even other cities
- that you may have sung in?
- Because historically, I think Rochester is unique.
- NICK WILLIAMS: Yes, I agree.
- EVELYN BAILEY: It is actually the third city, preceded
- by New York and San Francisco, in which the AIDS epidemic had
- a positive public response.
- The grassroots efforts that arose
- to help gay men, initially, then lesbians, then
- the straight population to deal with the inevitable economic
- crisis that was created--
- because you couldn't work, you couldn't go out and buy food,
- you couldn't take care of yourself.
- And so the response here was--
- I mean for a city our size--
- NICK WILLIAMS: It was a huge response.
- EVELYN BAILEY: It was huge.
- And not to minimize what happened in other cities,
- but comparatively, we had research at Strong going on.
- We had AIDS Rochester beginning.
- We had the Gay Alliance forming groups.
- You had other church groups, interfaith advocates,
- the whole nine yards.
- And eventually, all of that money
- started to come through the pipeline.
- So there was not the need in HPA for grassroots organizations
- to provide funds for taking care of our own.
- But that has always been a real strong value,
- I think, in this community, that we do take care of our own.
- NICK WILLIAMS: Yeah, I don't think I can respond to that.
- Because I don't know enough of what other cities did.
- I mean, to me, AIDS was a devastating thing
- because of the loss of creativity that was done.
- Mark Reese who was an incredibly talented arranger,
- died very early in the AIDS epidemic.
- And he had done three or four arrangements
- for New York City that were fabulous.
- No more.
- The dance, the theater, the populations were hit so strong.
- The creativity level of this country
- dropped with the AIDS epidemic.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Then it turned around.
- Then AIDS no longer was the instant killer.
- It became a chronic disease with which people could live.
- And so the urgency, the fear certainly
- subsided once people understood how
- the disease was transmitted, how you contract AIDS.
- NICK WILLIAMS: And I think Rochester, again,
- because of what Bill Valenti did specifically,
- we learned that lesson sooner.
- Because I know some of the members
- of the chorus who have been dealing
- with HIV since the late '80s.
- They're still alive.
- They're still strong.
- They're going to live a very normal life.
- But that was not true for many people.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right, so once we moved kind of beyond the crisis
- stage and--
- NICK WILLIAMS: Well, that took a few years. (laughs)
- EVELYN BAILEY: Well, yes, a number of years.
- The chronic stage of AIDS has only really come into existence
- probably in the past ten.
- But again, the lives of men and women changed.
- And was the chorus focused in a political agenda?
- NICK WILLIAMS: We were not allowed
- to be focused in a political agenda legally.
- Because we have a 503(c) status, which means that we cannot
- support political causes.
- Now that being said, we never overtly supported any
- one political person.
- Did we did we sing about values that
- were important to us, that may have come up
- to the political venues?
- Yes.
- Did we sing about marriage for gay people?
- Yes.
- Did we sing about changing the culture, you know,
- to create opportunities?
- Yes.
- So being the fact that you're gay means you're political.
- Period.
- I mean, because we put the word gay in our title consciously.
- We could have been the Rochester Men's Chorus, but we weren't.
- We were the Rochester Gay Men's Chorus
- because we wanted to create change.
- And we didn't use the word political change
- because I think it was more levels than just politically.
- But our mission was to create change
- for the betterment of gay and lesbian
- to the transgendered and LGBT individuals within the city
- and within the nation.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Do you think the chorus has been successful--
- NICK WILLIAMS: Yes--
- EVELYN BAILEY: --in that?
- NICK WILLIAMS: --I do.
- Now we were not the only one doing that.
- But you have to attack any issue at many levels.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right, what is the reason--
- well, does the purpose for the chorus's existence still exist.
- NICK WILLIAMS: I thought of that.
- And I'd actually had a conversation
- about that with Rob Strauss, who's the current director just
- recently.
- And I think the answer is yes.
- Yes, we have come a long distance.
- But we still don't have marriage as a unevocable right.
- It's still something that is controlled by other people.
- Whereas, how do you control emotions?
- How do you control things?
- So yeah, there still is a need.
- Is it the same desperate need to go out there?
- No, because the media has changed dramatically.
- When I-- thirty years ago, there was no such thing
- as a gay person on TV.
- That didn't exist.
- And now you turn on TV, and every other sitcom
- has a gay person.
- They're often stereotypical, but at least it's out there.
- It's being seen by the general population.
- It's got a face.
- So that has really changed significantly.
- Brokeback Mountain, who would have imagined you
- could have a movie about two gay men and the relationship
- they had as a major movie presentation outside
- of the gay film festivals?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Where do you go from here or--
- NICK WILLIAMS: I don't know.
- I don't know where I am going.
- I retired three, two and one half years ago.
- And I retired to take care of my partner who died of cancer.
- So as I've often said to people, I feel like I'm a teenager.
- Because I don't know what I'm going to do when I grow up
- (Bailey laughs).
- So I don't know where I'm going from here.
- I have not answered the question.
- EVELYN BAILEY: (pause) When you were young,
- did you grow up in Rochester?
- NICK WILLIAMS: I did.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And was it a friendly place to be gay?
- Or when did you come out?
- NICK WILLIAMS: I came out in '76, the bicentennial, when
- I was twenty years old.
- And I was in college at the time and then that was in Potsdam.
- I moved back here in '77 after I graduated.
- And I got a job in Hilton.
- And I was the typical disco bunny of the '80s,
- going out to the discos every weekend and dancing.
- And that really was my life.
- I was very stereotypically gay with the bar scene
- at that point.
- And that's just not where I want to go anymore.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right, were there resources available to you?
- NICK WILLIAMS: The Gay Alliance was there.
- I hooked up with a man.
- And we were very much involved with the Gay Alliance
- in '78, '79, '80, '81.
- You know, I did the Speakers Bureau routine,
- which was then going strong.
- So I was not even there in the beginning of it.
- It was already going when I stepped into it.
- Dick became president of the Gay Alliance-- co-president
- with Elaine.
- I forget Elaine's--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Smith.
- NICK WILLIAMS: And they were co-presidents.
- So I was the first lady for a while.
- And I got to have all the party functions, which was great.
- So I did things around the Gay Alliance.
- And I was there doing volunteer work.
- That's where I met Ralph Carter.
- That's where I met David Knoll.
- It was all through the Gay Alliance
- and what we were all doing.
- EVELYN BAILEY: As a young person now, aside from--
- when you were 20, there were the bars.
- There was the Gay Alliance.
- Was there anything--
- NICK WILLIAMS: If there was, I don't know about it.
- The Men's Dinner Group, I don't think existed at that point.
- The Gay Chorus certainly did not exist.
- You just networked. (laughs) You just networked.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah, and the bar scene
- really was the primary gathering place for--
- NICK WILLIAMS: And that was never really my scene.
- I did it because what else do you do?
- But that was never where I wanted to be.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Mm-hm, mm-hm.
- How would you say Rochester has changed
- over your lifetime in terms of its comfortableness
- with LGBT community and issues?
- NICK WILLIAMS: I think it's the same as society in general,
- I don't think that Rochester has any significant difference.
- Except, Rochester, because of the amount
- of colleges that are in this town,
- has a very high educational level.
- And so consequently, I think Rochester has always
- been slightly more accepting of the LGBT community than a more
- rural community or a more isolated city.
- So yeah, we had Tom Mooney with the Rochester
- Chamber of Commerce, who is very anti-gay, you know.
- And still we were able to do things.
- We rented the Chamber of Commerce in '85.
- He didn't want us to.
- But we were able to because of the city council ordinance
- that had just gone through.
- We were able to maneuver.
- We were able to act.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Mm-hm.
- where do you see the chorus going?
- NICK WILLIAMS: Not my question anymore, is it?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Any more.
- NICK WILLIAMS: They're going in a direction
- that I'm happy they're going.
- It's not a direction I want to go in.
- EVELYN BAILEY: In terms of gay rights and gay activism,
- what's our either next or continuing challenge
- as a community?
- We don't have all of what we want.
- NICK WILLIAMS: No.
- EVELYN BAILEY: So what's the next-- what
- do you see as the next step?
- NICK WILLIAMS: It's a continuation
- of what we're already doing.
- But we need to find people who feel that what we're doing
- is still vitally important--
- coming out, getting people to understand
- who we are as human beings, making
- people realize that we are not a threat, we are not pedophiles,
- we are not all of those horrible things
- that back in the '50s and '60s people were told we were,
- you know.
- We are normal human beings who are productive,
- who simply lead a life with a person of a gender
- that we choose.
- There is no other difference.
- But society still doesn't get that there
- isn't any other difference.
- And so we need to keep educating society.
- We are normal.
- We're not going away.
- We've been part of the human race since its very inception.
- Just get used to it.
- We're not going to hinder the choices
- you make as long as you don't hinder the choices that we
- make.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Mm-hm.
- Is there anything you would like to say?
- Or, is there any-- how would you like to be remembered?
- NICK WILLIAMS: How would I like to be remembered?
- Boy, you're really going deep into the psyche.
- That's-- I have often said that if I die today,
- I have lived a valued life.
- I have really tried to create change within the society
- that I've lived in.
- I have not been passive about it.
- I've been pretty active about it.
- I have really tried to create a space where we can grow
- and we can become who we want to be.
- And I think I've been active in trying to create that space
- and trying to bring together people to help create spaces
- of that nature.
- So I don't know.
- Where do I want to go?
- What do I want to do?
- Do I have any regrets?
- I don't have answers for those questions yet.
- As I said, I'm still a teenager.
- (laughter)
- NICK WILLIAMS: I got to figure that out. (laughs)
- EVELYN BAILEY: So being a teenager,
- what would you say to a young person who's
- just beginning this journey?
- NICK WILLIAMS: Do not be inhibited by what other people
- tell you that you should be.
- Be who you believe in your heart you are.
- And follow your heart.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Well you have certainly
- done that over the course of your lifetime.
- And I believe the city of Rochester
- is far better because of it.
- And your contributions to the chorus and to the gay community
- are extremely important and significant because you
- have been who you are and have tried
- to live that with integrity and visibly so that we can--
- all of us-- be more comfortable, not only in our own skins,
- but with each other.
- So thank you.
- NICK WILLIAMS: No, it's been my pleasure.
- I've had a great life.
- So I'm not going to complain. (laughs)