Green Thursday, radio program, July 10, 1975

(music plays)

BOB CRYSTAL: That was The Grateful Dead,

"Eyes of the World."

And this is Green Thursday for July 10, 1975.

I'm Bob Crystal.

With me tonight is Bruce Jewell.

Tonight we have a recording of the March--

the Gay Pride March in New York City last weekend.

And two weeks from tonight we'll be

having a recording of the rally held in Central Park.

We'll go right to the news.

Now the news for Green Thursday.

BRUCE JEWELL: Sex acts between consenting adults in private

are no longer illegal in New Mexico.

Due to a new penal code enacted July first.

Sodomy sections of the penal code

were repealed during this year's legislative session.

The penalty for sodomy before the repeal law was enacted

was a prison sentence of from two to ten years

or a fine of up to five thousand dollars, or both.

The repeal bill, which was signed by Governor Jerry

Apodaca on April 3, passed almost unnoticed

by New Mexico gay people and by the national gay community.

The bill was aimed chiefly at changing the state's rape laws

and drew little opposition.

It passed the state Senate by a vote of forty-one to one,

and was then sent down to the state House

where it passed by a vote of fifty-three

to zero with almost no debate.

While the bill repealed the state sodomy statutes,

it introduced new laws which make it illegal to rape men.

Although the bill will please New Mexico gay people,

women's liberationists are unhappy because the bill does

not provide penalties for forced sexual contact between husband

and wife.

As women explain, quote, "Rape is still legal

if you're married," unquote.

New Mexico becomes the tenth state

to eliminate penalties for sexual acts

between consenting adults in private,

joining California, Oregon, Hawaii, Illinois, Colorado,

Ohio, Delaware, Connecticut, and North Dakota.

BOB CRYSTAL: In Wellington, New Zealand,

a bill which would legalize sex acts between consenting adults

in private has survived its first hurdle

and has been reported--

(recording slows briefly)

--to Parliament by a special select committee

which had considered the bill for nearly a year.

The bill would remove criminal sanctions

against homosexual acts in private between consenting

males over the age of twenty.

Women are not affected by the bill

because there are no laws against lesbian acts.

Local newspapers reported that the bill had

faced unprecedented opposition.

The special committee had considered

about one hundred fifty submissions of testimony

regarding the bill, quote, "The evidence

that the committee received from representatives

of all the major churches, with the exception of the Catholic

Church, and the submissions from the church

were divided, plus the submissions we received

from those who have been most directly involved

from a counseling and psychological point of view,

served only to convince me that a change in law

along the lines proposed in this bill is necessary,"

said Dr. M.E.R. Bassett, the committee's chairman.

Dr. Bassett and other speakers in the House of Representatives

of New Zealand also commended V.S. Young

who introduced the bill for his courage

in introducing the legislation over a year ago.

BRUCE JEWELL: The United States Internal Revenue Service

has assigned a special investigator

to look into complaints that some eighty-five California

religious organizations are violating laws regulating

their tax exempt status.

Similar complaints asking the revocation of exempt status

have been lodged with the California Attorney General's

office, as well.

The group's charged with violating

tax laws all have been involved with the coalition of Christian

Citizens' attempts to put down sexual offenses-- to put

a sexual offenses referendum on the California state ballot

next year.

The referendum would repeal assemblyman Willie Brown Jr.'s

consenting sex bill which goes into effect January 1, 1976,

and is known as the Homosexual's Bill of Rights.

Charging that, quote, "Tax exempt religious organizations

are engaging in substantial and continuous activities

influencing and attempting to influence legislation,

both directly and indirectly, and charging

that through exploitation directed at members

of organizations and to the general public

in direct violation of prohibitions imposed on tax

exempt organizations," Paul D. Hardman, a San

Francisco attorney, sought investigations

of the activities of the Faith United Methodist Church

in Sacramento, and its chief administrative officer,

Reverend Harvey Chinn, the Church of Jesus

Christ of the Latter day Saints and its California state

presidents and bishops, the Los Angeles District

of the Church of the Nazarene and

its eighty affiliated churches,

and three tax exempt organizations

under the direction of Dr. Bill Mansdorfer of Grass Valley.

Reverend Chinn, of Sacramento's Faith United Church,

claims to be a full time minister.

But according to Hardman, he has been

known to legislators and newsmen in the state capital

to operate as a lobbyist.

He is an activist against gambling and homosexual issues,

appearing as a regular witness at legislative hearings.

Rev. Chinn is not registered as a lobbyist.

"The law is clear," Hardman said, "That tax

exempt organizations are prohibited, regardless

of motivation, from interfering with legislative processes

directly or indirectly.

The law also prohibits them from attempting

to mold public opinion directly or indirectly."

Supporting his complaint against the Los Angeles District

Assembly of the Church of the Nazarene,

Hardman cited a May seventeenth resolution

adopted by that church, urging repeal of Consenting Sex Bill

and directed at Governor Brown and the state legislature.

Supporting his complaint against the Church

of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints,

Hardman cited a letter from Dale E. Rowe, a Latter Day Saint

Public Communications Coordinator for the Bay Area,

which reported that all Bay Area state presidents and bishops

received informational material opposing

the liberalization of sex laws.

Many bishops, the letter said, organized telephone committees

and other workers to advise members

and to encourage people to contact legislators

so that, quote, "Senators and assemblymen

might know their opposition."

Supporting his complaint against Dr. Bill Mansdorfer, a Grass

Valley religious leader associated with three tax

exempt organizations, Hardman cited a fifteen minute radio

program over a San Francisco radio

station which called for two fifty donations

to support the referendum drive.

The radio program was sponsored by Mansdorfer's tax exempt

Project America.

It is likely that complaints against other religious groups

will be filed by Hardman as he gets

evidence of what he believes to be illegal activities.

In the meantime, for their part, the Coalition

of Christian Citizens kicked off its campaign

against the Consenting Sex Bill with a keynote speech

denouncing the state's attempt to quote, "Give rights

to queers."

The speech was given by Commander Matt Cole

of the American Nazi Party.

BOB CRYSTAL: As reported in the Wall Street Journal,

an increasing number of companies

are trying to reach the gay market,

but they apparently aren't ready to hire

a gay consultant to help them break into that market.

Milton Lounsbery of New York City

ran a Position Wanted ad at Advertising Age,

identifying himself as gay and saying,

quote, "Savvy advertising market product development departments

should hire skilled gay personnel to help

them break into huge homosexual buying audience," unquote.

Lounsbery reported nearly two weeks

after his ad ran that he had not received a single response.

And that's the news for Green Thursday.

This is Green Thursday on WCMF in Rochester, New York.

Bruce?

BRUCE JEWELL: I believed you have an announcement

for gay alcoholics.

Well I can do it.

BOB CRYSTAL: OK.

BRUCE JEWELL: There is a group of gay alcoholics

if you're interested in joining this group

or finding out about it you can call the gay brotherhood at--

do you have the number?

BOB CRYSTAL: 244-8640.

The number again for gay alcoholics is 244-8640.

BRUCE JEWELL: OK.

What we're going to hear in a couple of minutes,

is a recording of the sixth Gay Pride March in New York City,

which occurred June twenty-fifth of this year.

The Gay Pride March began essentially

as an outgrowth of the Stonewall Riots of 1969,

which lasted three days.

Immediately following those riots, at the Stonewall,

a gay bar in the village, numerous gay groups

formed and eventually this gathered together

in order to sponsor this Gay Pride March.

Now in its sixth year, it is the largest

of all civil rights protest marches in the United States,

as it was last year.

According to police estimates, we

had thirty thousand people at the rally.

Well, whatever the size-- and I think the march was more like

ten thousand--

it remains the largest of all civil rights protest actions.

It's celebrated simultaneously in San Francisco, Los Angeles,

and New York.

Thus we have Gay Pride Marches on both coasts on the same day.

As usual this year, it was ignored by the media.

The only major article on gay activities

in New York for that week was in the Village Voice

and the topic there was making money

off the gay movement featuring numerous glitter rock stars

and so on and so forth.

So that's where it's at.

And I think we can begin now.

(music plays)

BRUCE JEWELL: The march began with a contingency

from parents of gays.

BRUCE JEWELL: What kinds of problems

do parents most frequently confront?

SUBJECT 1: Well, they can't accept it.

They think it's very difficult. Their son is gay

and they have trouble accepting him as a son

and as a human being.

They think it's something very strange.

And so we reassure them and well we discuss with them

how our reaction was and that nothing really has changed.

BRUCE JEWELL: Do they have problems

with specific aspects of their sons' lives,

or is it just a general reaction--

SUBJECT 1: A general reaction, I think.

BRUCE JEWELL: --against the idea?

Just a general reaction.

SUBJECT 1: Yes.

BRUCE JEWELL: Thank you very much.

SUBJECT 2: And what is so wrong with being gay?

You know every human being is a sexist being,

and that's only a part of our life.

And everybody should understand that.

BRUCE JEWELL: Do you try to provide

support for the parents of gay men and women who are--

SUBJECT 2: Oh yes we do.

When they're confused and bewildered,

they come to our meetings, and we help

them to accept their children.

BRUCE JEWELL: What kinds of problems

do they most frequently--

SUBJECT 2: The combination--

BRUCE JEWELL: --confront as parents?

SUBJECT 2: --of personal guilt. They feel they've done it.

BRUCE JEWELL: Yes.

SUBJECT 2: And then the complete bewilderment

with the whole subject.

And both can be easily taken care of.

Another thing that helps them is so

many of our members that accept that their children fully.

BRUCE JEWELL: That's very good.

Thank you.

SUBJECT 2: You're welcome.

BRUCE JEWELL: Your son is gay, I would assume, or your daughter

SUBJECT 3: Our son.

BRUCE JEWELL: Your son?

SUBJECT 3: Uh-huh.

Well, one of our three sons.

BRUCE JEWELL: One of your three sons.

And I gather you have joined this group of gay parents

in an effort to help other parents accept

their gay children.

SUBJECT 3: That's right, yes.

BRUCE JEWELL: Is it a struggle for you to accept your gay son?

SUBJECT 3: No, as a matter of fact, it wasn't.

BRUCE JEWELL: It wasn't?

SUBJECT 3: No, but I gather it is for a lot of people.

BRUCE JEWELL: Why do you think you were able to accept--

SUBJECT 3: Well, because I don't think

there's anything wrong with being homosexual.

A lot of parents think there is something wrong

and they think there's something they did which caused it.

My own reaction is there's nothing wrong with it

and there's nothing a parent does to affect

it one way or the other.

BRUCE JEWELL: OK, thank you very much.

SUBJECT 3: You're welcome.

BRUCE JEWELL: This year I believe

is the first year we've had a contingency of gay veterans,

is that correct?

SUBJECT 4: I believe so, yes.

That's what they're telling me and so it's

my first year with coming out, so it's a double first for me.

BRUCE JEWELL: Why did you decide to march as a gay veteran?

SUBJECT 4: Because (pause) golly, it's very complicated.

I just got out of the Navy.

I was ten and a half years in the Navy.

I was a Navy officer.

I got out and came out, in that order.

And I figure that the best thing I

can do for myself is come out completely

and take pride in my gayness.

And believe me, I'm very proud of it.

BRUCE JEWELL: Is it particularly difficult in the armed forces

for gay people?

SUBJECT 4: Yes it is.

It Is very difficult. But it's going

to be pioneers like Lenny Matlovich though,

who are going to make it a lot easier.

And like Barbara and Debbie over there

who are being interviewed.

And Skip Keith, also in the Air Force,

are going to make it so much easier on gays.

I'm going to try to do some work contacting my friends back

in the Navy who I still know.

See if I can get some of them to come out.

Because the more of us that come out,

or maybe I should say the more of the Navy people to come out

and us veterans that come out, the easier it's

going to be for the people in the military.

Because the military is going to learn that

they can't do without us.

BRUCE JEWELL: You think there a lot of gay people,

or homosexuals in the military?

SUBJECT 4: Oh, absolutely.

Absolutely, absolutely.

I would recommend that you go to any gay bar--

large gay bar-- in any military town

like Norfolk, Virginia, San Diego, California, Denver,

Colorado.

And you'll find that a very, very large percentage of them

are military.

BRUCE JEWELL: OK.

Thank you very much.

SUBJECT 4: Sure.

BRUCE JEWELL: Debbie Watson and Barbara Randolph,

I saw your pictures in People Magazine,

or was it Time Magazine?

BARBARA RANDOLPH: Time Magazine.

BRUCE JEWELL: You are the first WACs, is it?

BARBARA RANDOLPH: That's it.

DEBBIE WATSON: Well, I don't believe we're the first ones.

But we're probably the first ones to go this public.

You know?

BRUCE JEWELL: How is the Women's Auxiliary or the Armed Forces

reacting to this?

Pretty badly, I guess?

BARBARA RANDOLPH: No, it's not-- the women aren't reacting bad,

it's just the higher ups in the army are.

Everybody we come in contact with think it's great.

BRUCE JEWELL: Are you getting support

from your fellow officers, and so on?

BARBARA RANDOLPH: To a certain degree we are.

BRUCE JEWELL: To a certain degree.

BARBARA RANDOLPH: Off the record we are.

On the record, they can't give us

support because it's going to be their jobs on the line too.

BRUCE JEWELL: What do you think they're really afraid of?

Why do they object to having lesbians in the armed services?

DEBBIE WATSON: I think it's just basically the regulation.

And that's two hundred years old.

It's time to be changed.

BRUCE JEWELL: Were you inspired by Sergeant Matlovich?

DEBBIE WATSON: No we--

BRUCE JEWELL: Or is this a separate development?

DEBBIE WATSON: We came out before him,

but we just didn't come public before him.

We actually admitted to it all, but we didn't hit the papers

until just after him.

BRUCE JEWELL: What influenced your decision to come out?

This is a major thing.

Apparently the government takes notice of this type of action.

The newspaper certainly have.

What were your motives for coming out in the armed forces?

DEBBIE WATSON: We didn't think it was fair

that they were kicking us out.

We just felt like it was something

that needed to be changed because we're human beings

and it hasn't affected our job in any way.

And we both love our jobs.

We want to stay in the army.

And they're telling us that we're not fit.

BRUCE JEWELL: There's been no criticism of you as workers?

BARBARA RANDOLPH: No, we've got outstanding records.

Outstanding.

BRUCE JEWELL: You're doing what you're supposed to do.

You have outstanding records.

It's merely because you're lesbians.

BARBARA RANDOLPH: That's right.

That's right.

BRUCE JEWELL: Alright.

Thank you very much.

BARBARA RANDOLPH: Thanks a lot.

DEBBIE WATSON: Thank you.

BRUCE JEWELL: Sergeant Matlovich, your coming

out with your outstanding record in Vietnam

and in the armed forces in general

has caused a nationwide stir.

Our paper in Rochester had a pro-Matlovich editorial.

It was the first time that they'd ever

editorialized on a gay subject.

I'm interested in why did you decide to come out?

LEONARD MATLOVICH: Well, I feel as an American citizen

it was a crime every day I did not come out.

Oppression is wrong.

Many people in this country are being oppressed.

Blacks, browns, women, what have you.

And it's time people just started

standing up and saying no more.

This is the greatest country in the world.

Let's make it greater.

Let's truly give this nation a two hundredth birthday present

of equality and justice for all Americans.

BRUCE JEWELL: Have you received support from--

LEONARD MATLOVICH: Oh the support.

What can I say, the support has been overwhelming.

If I had known it was going to support like as I'd

have done it a long time ago.

BRUCE JEWELL: Who has supported you?

LEONARD MATLOVICH: Everyone.

I just have a house full of mail,

my telephone never stops ringing.

Straight people, gay people, everyone is supporting.

BRUCE JEWELL: Military officers and--

LEONARD MATLOVICH: Everyone.

BRUCE JEWELL: --enlisted men?

LEONARD MATLOVICH: A lot of people in the military

will come up to me privately, and say, "Hey, privately we

support you.

But, publicly, we're just in a situation we cannot support

you."

BRUCE JEWELL: What do you think they're afraid of?

LEONARD MATLOVICH: It's against--

to be a homosexual in the armed forces is against the law,

and they're afraid of their own careers,

that their career may be--

see, I've more or less, I guess--

until we get into the courts-- or if the board or hearing

decides I stay in--

I've more or less ended my Air Force career.

And the same thing would happen to them.

BRUCE JEWELL: Do you think they're actually

afraid of homosexuals in the armed forces

or are they afraid of regulations

against homosexuals?

LEONARD MATLOVICH: I think they're

afraid of the regulations against homosexuals.

BRUCE JEWELL: You don't think they're actually

worried about having homosexuals demoralize the--

LEONARD MATLOVICH: No.

No.

BRUCE JEWELL: --enlisted men or something like that?

LEONARD MATLOVICH: No, I think people today in America

are becoming very, very mature.

And they realize that these are past ideas which

are just no longer valid.

BRUCE JEWELL: Thank you very much.

SKIP KEITH: I'm stationed down at Dover Air Force

Base, Delaware.

BRUCE JEWELL: And you came out too?

SKIP KEITH: Yeah, it was in my race relations

class because I got so tired of the Department of Defense's

hypocrisy as far as gays are concerned.

They know very well that there's thousands of us

and they're not about to make any concerted effort to get us

all off, because I mean really they'd be crippled.

Ten percent of the people at least, at least would be gone.

And there is no way they'd be able to function

anywhere near as well as they function now.

Or as badly, depending upon how you

feel about the Department of Defense.

As they do now if all the gays left.

And I thought that in the race relations class where

they are making this tremendous effort to eliminate prejudice

and discrimination in the military

and you're making great progress there,

I thought it was ridiculous they never said--

it was ridiculous and very hypocritical they never

said one word about us as gays.

And there's a tremendous amount of prejudice and discrimination

against us, obviously.

But what I've been finding out there's not nearly so much

as I had thought because I've been getting

really a tremendous-- a lot of support from a number of people

and there are a number of non-gay people

who have known I'm gay for quite some time.

BRUCE JEWELL: As a black man, do you

find the prejudice against gays rather like the prejudice

against blacks?

SKIP KEITH: Oh certainly!

Yes, absolutely.

Absolutely.

As a matter of fact, I've had far less--

I can't think of any time in the Air Force

when I've been overtly discriminated

or covertly discriminated against because I'm black,

but I can think of probably many instances

where I think I probably would have been because I am gay.

I'm going to wait.

What I've done is more or less recent.

I told my race relations class that I was gay

and went into a twenty minute discussion of the gay rights

movement about the Friday preceding the New York Times

breaking of Len Matlovich's story,

and I didn't, you know, expect anything to happen.

I thought I wanted to do this because we as gays contribute

a great deal to our own discrimination

because we're so invisible.

I mean we learn to hide it at a very early age.

So many people view homosexuality

as being a phenomenon totally remote

from everyday existence when in fact, you know,

we're as common as grocery stores or--

BRUCE JEWELL: What happened in the class

when you told them you were gay?

SKIP KEITH: Several people were surprised.

I imagine maybe a couple were put off.

Maybe some people were--

PARADE ATTENDEE: (shouting) (unintelligible)

SKIP KEITH: --I got some very good questions though.

And I was able to make some points that I really

wanted to make.

The fact that there are twenty-two million-- at least

twenty-two million-- gays in this country

if we take the standard 1 in 10 population figure.

There are at least that many.

That is a huge minority in this country.

And we can have tremendous political power

if we got ourselves organized.

But the thing I-- the main point,

well one of the main points I wanted to make was that

homosexuals--

the phenomenon of homosexuality is not

remote from everyday existence.

I mean we're the same people that you

meet every day, in every position in life,

every walk of life, every socioeconomic strata that one

comes in contact with.

BRUCE JEWELL: Even in the military.

SKIP KEITH: Especially in the military because as I said,

there are thousands of us in the military.

You go down to any gay bar or restaurant

or whatever that's very near a large military installation

it's going to be heavily frequented

by military personnel.

Washington, DC, which has a fairly large concentration

of military installations, I mean there are five gay bars I

can think of right off hand: (unintelligible) Grand Central,

Pier 9, Donny's.

They do more military business on the weekends,

each individual one of them, than the USO would ever

dream of doing, you know.

But DOD is extremely hypocritical about it.

So--

PARADE ATTENDEE: (shouting) (unintelligible)

SKIP KEITH: They're heavily-- they

say that they're heavily concerned about image,

but I think it's the closet syndrome, unfortunately.

I think that really Len and the two women--

WACs, Debbie Watson and Barbara Randolph,

have gotten a tremendous amount of support

from gay and non-gay people.

But I think that as far as gays go,

we might run into a little more flack from them

than from non-gay people because gays

are so afraid of having the closet-- you

know, the false security blanket of the closet threatened.

You know, why do you want to shake things up?

Things are fairly okay as they are now.

But that's not really true.

BRUCE JEWELL: Thank you very much.

I appreciate it.

SKIP KEITH: OK.

BRUCE JEWELL: This is a representative

from the Youth Against War and Fascism Party and Workers

World, is that correct?

SUBJECT 5: Workers World Party, yes.

BRUCE JEWELL: Could you tell me what your position

is in relation to gay affairs?

SUBJECT 5: Yes.

Our party, Workers World Party, is a multinational organization

of black and white and gay and straight people

who are fighting against all forms of oppression

and exploitation, whether it be racism, whether it be sexism,

whether it be women's oppression.

We've always been in the struggle

and in the forefront of the struggle.

In the streets, where people can see

us to see that our organization fights together

against a common enemy, which is the bosses

in this country who are exploiting all of us.

They are our common enemy.

We've been in the struggle against gay oppression

since its inception.

We've been out on the streets on every important demonstration.

We support our sister, Susan Saxe, a lesbian,

a very strong woman, who is being framed up

by the bosses in this country.

We support--

BRUCE JEWELL: Well, she did commit a bank robbery.

SUBJECT 5: --we support gay prisoners

who are being harassed, beaten, and raped in prison.

We support the struggle of black people to a decent life.

And we support the struggle of all workers in this country

to a decent living at a time right now

when we see more and more people being laid off.

Particularly gay people are harassed off their jobs

at this particular time.

Black people and women workers are the first to be laid off,

and what we want to do is get out in the street

and show that there is a fighting

organization of people, no matter what your orientation.

Gay or straight, no matter what your national background,

we want to fight the people who are really oppressing us

and that's what our organization is.

That's why we're here.

BRUCE JEWELL: Thank you very much.

(group playing kazoos)

(Hebrew chanting)

SUBJECT 6: We're going to knock ourselves out before we start.

BRUCE JEWELL: A gay synagogue group, right?

How long ago did this synagogue form?

SUBJECT 6: Why don't--

Danny you answer his question?

BRUCE JEWELL: How long ago did this synagogue form?

SUBJECT 7: About two years.

BRUCE JEWELL: About two years.

Is it acceptable--

I don't know anything about the Jewish hierarchy--

is it an acceptable--

SUBJECT 7: By and large, we've been

ignored by (unintelligible) we're not quite

ready to approach them either.

We feel we have a solid Halakha foundation--

a foundation in Jewish law as we understand it.

Mostly our political situation prevents us

from really being all that activist about it.

BRUCE JEWELL: Do you have a rabbi?

SUBJECT 7: (unintelligible)

BRUCE JEWELL: I see.

Why did you form a Jewish gay group of this sort?

SUBJECT 7: There are a number all over the country.

There is one in Los Angeles.

There's one forming in Boston.

The Los Angeles one is the oldest that I know of.

I believe there's one in Philadelphia

and in Washington and Miami these are just getting started.

We have the advantage, I think, that we have a lot of people,

such as--other people here who are very knowledgeable

in Judaism and tried to develop a service in accordance with

our own understanding of Jewish tradition and our own

contribution which we have to (unintelligible).

We are contributing to the continuing growing tradition

of Jewish observance, of Jewish culture,

of religion, of the people.

We are a part of Kahal Yisrael, the Congregation of Israel.

BRUCE JEWELL: Thank you very much.

(unintelligible speaking)

BRUCE JEWELL: I see on your shirt there's a spelling--

T-Ram, Ty-Ram?

SUBJECT 8: Ty-Ram.

Right.

Prince of Homonozzo.

He's the first super gay hero.

BRUCE JEWELL: To tell me about it.

SUBJECT 8: Briefly, OK.

Ty-Ram is the outcast of the universe

and he is looking for a world in order to make better.

And he has picked Earth as his planet and it's time

that the gays had their own Superman

and his name is Ty-Ram.

BRUCE JEWELL: Ty-Ram okay.

What is this going to be a magazine?

Or--

SUBJECT 8: It will be coming out in Torch Magazine in September.

BRUCE JEWELL: I see.

And it's going to be a continuing comic?

SUBJECT 8: A continuous-- right.

A continuous series in Torch Magazine.

The Adventures of Ty-Ram, Prince of Homonozzo.

BRUCE JEWELL: Thank you very much.

SUBJECT 8: You're very welcome.

Thank you.

BRUCE JEWELL: You're with Dignity.

PRIEST: Right.

BRUCE JEWELL: You're a priest?

PRIEST: Yeah.

BRUCE JEWELL: How do you feel about the stand of the church

here in New York City?

Which has suddenly become extremely vicious.

PRIEST: I think it's crazy.

I mean, there's no question about it,

the intransigence of the church and the (pause) rigidity

of the archdiocese in terms of accepting

not only gay people, but any minority

group within its ranks.

Now this is my own personal opinion, obviously.

BRUCE JEWELL: How do you explain this

in view of the much more progressive stance taken

by the archbishop in Boston?

PRIEST: Well, obviously each bishop

is entitled to his own arbitrary opinions.

Not only that, but the people around the bishop

are also very influential.

Here in New York, Catholics tend to be very conservative.

BRUCE JEWELL: We're not dealing, in other words,

with church dogma or something that absolutely has to do--

PRIEST: Nothing absolute about it at all.

BRUCE JEWELL: I see.

Well, are there any negotiations being

opened up or is there any kind of conversation

going on at this time?

PRIEST: There are conversations going on,

but so far we haven't gotten very far.

Yesterday, for instance, there was a demonstration.

Very peaceful demonstration by the dignity at St. Pat's

Cathedral, and there was a prayer group composed

of people from Dignity.

There was a demonstration across the street with banners

and so forth.

This kind of thing has been going on.

Also negotiations at the Chance have been going on but so far--

Brooklyn, for instance, is light years ahead of us.

They already have a chaplain appointed

by the diocese of Brooklyn.

So it just takes time, I guess.

BRUCE JEWELL: Do you think, eventually,

you'll be able to swing the church here in New York

to a more--

PRIEST: I think so.

BRUCE JEWELL: --can I say humane stance?

PRIEST: In the meantime--

I think so, but as I say in the meantime

I don't think that it really is keeping us back

from doing what we want to do anyway.

You know?

Dignity is a very active group in New York.

We still have our liberties.

We have a full sacramental life.

We feel very much in communion with the church.

BRUCE JEWELL: Are you growing as an organization?

PRIEST: Absolutely. (unintelligible).

BRUCE JEWELL: Thank you.

PRIEST: Right on.

BRUCE JEWELL: I see that you are a nun, is that correct?

NUN: That's correct.

BRUCE JEWELL: What order are you with?

NUN: I'm a school sister of Notre Dame.

BRUCE JEWELL: A school sister of Notre Dame.

NUN: Right with the Baltimore Province.

BRUCE JEWELL: And you work with Dignity.

NUN: Right.

Yes.

I've been working with Dignity for about three or four years

now.

BRUCE JEWELL: I think you're the first nun that I've

seen in a gay pride march.

NUN: We have other nuns who are working with Dignity,

but there aren't many.

We'd like to get more.

BRUCE JEWELL: How do you feel about this?

NUN: Well, I feel--

BRUCE JEWELL: It's part of your contribution

as a Christian (unintelligible).

NUN: Right.

I feel that my church has been particularly

guilty of contributing to the persecution if you will,

of not only Catholic gays, but gays in general.

And I feel this is something that I

can do to help rectify the injustices my church has

been guilty of.

BRUCE JEWELL: Thank you very much.

NUN: You're welcome.

CROWD: (chanting) Two, four, six, eight, separate church

and state.

Two, four, six, eight, separate church and state.

BRUCE JEWELL: We're just getting started here on the march.

How does it look today?

SUBJECT 9: It looks nice.

I haven't really had a chance to get a sense of how many people.

I imagine later on 6th Avenue--

BRUCE JEWELL: I imagine as president of the GAA

you've been awfully busy for the last few weeks.

SUBJECT 9: Yes.

BRUCE JEWELL: Getting this thing together

and working with the various committees and so on.

SUBJECT 9: Yeah.

Well, we also had our new headquarters opening

which was a lot of work.

And last night we were busy finishing up our banners

and counting our buttons and all kinds of things.

BRUCE JEWELL: How many people do you think will be here today?

SUBJECT 9: Fifty thousand.

I don't know.

BRUCE JEWELL: Thank you very much.

SUBJECT 9: You're welcome.

BRUCE JEWELL: I notice you're with the United States Army.

SUBJECT 10: That's correct.

BRUCE JEWELL: Correct.

How do you feel about homosexuals in the army

now that the issue's come up?

SUBJECT 10: The issue's come up?

I'd rather not comment on it.

BRUCE JEWELL: How about you?

SUBJECT 11: I'd rather not comment.

BRUCE JEWELL: Why would you rather not comment?

SUBJECT 11: I'm in uniform.

BRUCE JEWELL: You can't comment because you're in uniform?

That's a lot to give up.

(drumming)

CROWD: (chanting) Two, four, six, eight, are

your children really straight?

Two, four, six, eight, are your children really straight?

Two, four, six, eight, are your children really straight?

BRUCE JEWELL: You're with Gay Youth of Columbia.

GLEN: Yeah.

My name is Glen (unintelligible) and I'm co-chair person.

And there's about ten of us up here.

BRUCE JEWELL: Tell me a bit about the group.

What's the age--

GLEN: Well, we're mostly fifteen to twenty-one, twenty-two

and we try to give gay people who are young

the passes of parents and school and peers an outlet

to come down and rap and meet people like themselves.

Try to work out problems, try to make friends.

And just relax and try to be themselves

and adjust to how they are.

BRUCE JEWELL: What kinds of problems

are young gay people most likely to run into?

GLEN: Parents throwing kids out of houses (pause)

hassles with peers.

Some people just adjusting to their sexuality

after being brought up one way, going completely against it.

People just go through a lot of headaches, a lot of hassles.

BRUCE JEWELL: Have you been able to get in contact

with parents, and so on?

GLEN: Yes.

We work with parents of gays and we've

had a few parents and kids, you know, get together.

And one friend of mine who came out to his mother

was just about to be thrown out of this house.

Now him and his mother are best of friends because they've

been working on it through Parents of Gays

and through Gay Youth.

BRUCE JEWELL: That's good to hear.

Thank you very much.

GLEN: Sure.

BRUCE JEWELL: You're from New York City?

SUBJECT 12: Uh-huh.

BRUCE JEWELL: And is this your first Gay Pride March?

SUBJECT 12: It's my first March.

I participated in one, two years ago

when I first got to New York, the one

in Washington Square Park.

BRUCE JEWELL: Yeah.

Why do you come to a Gay Pride March?

SUBJECT 12: Why?

Because it's like a big party.

You know?

BRUCE JEWELL: You like parties.

SUBJECT 12: Yeah.

I mean, I don't think I'm really super proud of being gay,

but I'm not ashamed of it at all, you know?

I mean, it's just a fact.

BRUCE JEWELL: It's just fun to get together with people.

SUBJECT 12: Oh yeah.

I mean, this is a big party.

Lots of costumes, and everyone's with their shirt

off and cut offs.

And you know, a lot of grass, and oh, it's wonderful.

BRUCE JEWELL: Okay.

Thank you very much.

SUBJECT 12: Surely.

BRUCE JEWELL: Officer, is this the first Gay Pride March

you've been working on?

POLICE OFFICER: Yes it is.

BRUCE JEWELL: Having a good time?

POLICE OFFICER: Oh, terrific time.

BRUCE JEWELL: Yeah?

Never seen anything like this before?

POLICE OFFICER: Not in person, no.

BRUCE JEWELL: Will you be doing it

again next year, do you think?