Audio Interview, Al Carmines, 1973

  • BRUCE JEWELL: Put Humpty together again.
  • This is Bruce Jewell testing his tape recorder
  • to see how it's doing.
  • This is Bruce Jewell testing his Sony tape recorder
  • to see if it survived the trip.
  • AL CARMINES: Testing one, two, three, four.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Testing one, two, three, four.
  • Mr. Carmines, the first thing that interests
  • me is the name of the play, The Faggot.
  • It's a name usually associated with discrimination.
  • And I noticed that some people even
  • had difficulty using the term in front of the theater.
  • Why did you name it The Faggot?
  • AL CARMINES: Because I felt that what the oratorio was about
  • and where homosexuality is in this country
  • right now is better expressed by using that term,
  • than simply by using a term like "the homosexual in America"
  • or "the homophile meets his doom" or something like that.
  • I felt it would be like doing a play about women's lib
  • and calling it "girl" because I felt that that term is
  • a term of opprobrium in many ways,
  • is a term that's been used to oppress homosexuals.
  • And I wanted that right up front.
  • I didn't want to indicate that I didn't
  • think there is discrimination.
  • I think there is.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Could you tell me something
  • about the history of the play, how the idea came about?
  • AL CARMINES: Well, it's very hard
  • to say how ideas come about for plays for me.
  • I remember before I wrote it, I was thinking what
  • to do for the next play here.
  • And I had two topics in mind, neither of which
  • was The Faggot.
  • One was Saint Paul and one was The Policeman.
  • I was trying to decide between the two of them,
  • either a biography of Saint Paul in the Bible
  • or a day in the life of a New York City cop.
  • And in the midst of all those reflections,
  • I had a flash I guess, is the only way to describe it.
  • That what I really wanted the oratorio to be about
  • was something totally different, namely, homosexuality.
  • And I've done about nine oratorios.
  • And my general thought each time is what I
  • call phenomenological thought.
  • That is, I like to take some phenomenon of modern society
  • or of life and examine it from all the angles I can think of.
  • I've written a play called Joan which
  • deals with modern sainthood.
  • I've written one called A Look at the 50s, which
  • looks at the 1950s in that way.
  • And that's why I like the oratorio form,
  • because you don't have one plot going from beginning to end.
  • And you can look at it from many points of view,
  • through a chorus, through a scene, through a solo,
  • through a duet.
  • And essentially I thought I want to deal with homosexuality not
  • in a kind of plot-oriented play about a person's
  • life in that way, but as a kind of sociological phenomenon.
  • And I felt that the way to do that was
  • to deal with it in the oratorio form
  • where I could have a scene between two men
  • and then a scene between two women,
  • and a scene in a bar, a chorus, and so forth.
  • So I use a phenomenological method
  • and this was the subject this time, I guess.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: This play was produced as a--
  • what is it called?
  • A showcase production?
  • AL CARMINES: Yes.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Could you explain what that is in relation
  • to a play that might be produced on Broadway or something
  • like that?
  • AL CARMINES: Yes.
  • Eleven years ago, we began our theater here.
  • And we were the first Off-Off-Broadway theater.
  • Up until that point in New York City for a play to be produced,
  • it was usually either Broadway or Off-Broadway.
  • And the costs were so prohibitive for just artists
  • beginning that there was no place where a writer could just
  • come to New York and do his play without paying thousands
  • of dollars.
  • So we began a theater here for the playwright where
  • he could come have his play produced
  • without that kind of tie-in with a producer
  • or without that kind of money being put to it.
  • And now there are about fifty Off-Off-Broadway theaters
  • in New York.
  • What they are is experimental places
  • where a show is run for a certain amount of time.
  • No one is paid.
  • People rehearse in the evenings or on weekends.
  • You ask for a very minimum contribution
  • from your audience, which covers the set and the lights
  • and the scenery and the costumes and the advertising.
  • And what it is is it's really a kind of trial.
  • And it helps the playwright to see
  • how people react to his play and what needs to be changed,
  • what doesn't need to be changed.
  • And it helps the actors because they get exposure,
  • and agents see them, producers see them.
  • And generally speaking, I've found
  • some of the most exciting theater in New York
  • is not on Broadway or even Off-Broadway,
  • but Off-Off-Broadway at coffee shops, churches,
  • and lofts like this.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Do you think that this play
  • might be produced again later?
  • AL CARMINES: Yes, there are producers
  • very interested in moving it to a commercial situation
  • and I would like to see it done.
  • Partly because I think a lot more people would get to see it
  • and partly because the actors get paid in such a situation.
  • So I think we will probably move to an Off-Broadway theater.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: I'm glad to hear that.
  • Was it--now not--I would assume many members of the cast are
  • straight.
  • AL CARMINES: Yes.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Did any of them find it
  • something of a consciousness-raising
  • experience to play gay people or homosexuals?
  • AL CARMINES: It's very interesting to me,
  • the experience of the cast in this play.
  • Because I think it was consciousness
  • raising not only for the heterosexual members
  • of the cast, but for the homosexual ones too.
  • And that's what interested me the most.
  • And the response to the play, in fact, has been mixed.
  • Some gay people have loved it and some have hated it.
  • And some straight people have loved it
  • and some have hated it.
  • So it has not been divided in terms
  • of both the raising of the consciousness of the cast
  • and the response from the audience
  • along gay, straight lines at all.
  • It's been very individual kinds of response.
  • And I've heard groups of gay people arguing about it
  • after the show, some saying they thought it was wonderful
  • and some saying they thought it was terrible.
  • And I've heard the same thing by straight people.
  • We had a colloquium on the show last Sunday,
  • I preached on it in church.
  • And we had a meeting afterwards to discuss it.
  • And I was very interested because quite
  • a few married couples came to the colloquium
  • and said how they felt the play had spoken
  • to them about their relationship even though it was ostensibly
  • about gay relationships, that they felt the qualities that
  • were brought out in several of the relationships
  • in the play applied to their marriage.
  • And they realized how similar and how in fact, the problems
  • are often the same between any two people trying to relate.
  • There are the same kind of tensions,
  • the same kind of fears, the same kinds of loves.
  • So in that sense, I think a lot of gay members of the cast
  • have spoken to me and said it raised their consciousness as
  • far as simply human relationships go.
  • And several of the straight members of the cast
  • have said the same thing.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: It seemed to me that there
  • were three major themes, perhaps more,
  • but three that struck me in the play.
  • One was the emphasis on fantasy.
  • Another was the emphasis on fear and furtiveness,
  • which seemed to be coupled.
  • And the third was the positive emphasis
  • on people learning about one another
  • through mutual self-exploration.
  • AL CARMINES: Yes.
  • The fantasy theme is a theme that I
  • think is understandable but important.
  • I think homosexuals in this country have been oppressed
  • in the kinds of ways that mean that often in many places
  • in this country, they cannot be open about their attractions,
  • their loves, their lives.
  • Which means that they are forced into a kind of fantasy life
  • many times, it seems to me.
  • And I think that's both sad and dangerous.
  • And so one of the aspects I do deal with is fantasy.
  • And as you know, in one of the scenes one of the men
  • says he's living in a society where
  • homosexuality is quite legal.
  • And nevertheless, he said in his youth,
  • he became so used to living a fantasy life
  • that he can't accept the reality of the situation.
  • He still wants to go on with his fantasy life.
  • Also I guess the key song of the show
  • is one called "Women with Women, Men with Men."
  • We learn about ourselves through exploring what is like us.
  • And I think we often think that we learn about ourselves
  • sexually and in other ways by exploring
  • what is different from us.
  • But another way to learn, of course,
  • is by exploring what is like us.
  • And I believe that there is such a thing as the papers have
  • been saying, as homophobia.
  • That is, people who are so frightened of being
  • homosexual that they turn to crime,
  • they turn to drug addiction, they turn to many things
  • because anything seems preferable to them
  • to this sexual ambiguity.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Is that what the little skit, "You
  • Have Seventy Years to Say No"
  • AL CARMINES: Yes, that's right.
  • Seventy years or so, seventy years to find
  • reasons not to do something.
  • And then they say, what a wonderful way
  • to live ironically, of course.
  • And then there is the scene also with the religious devotees who
  • try everything to keep from admitting their homosexuality
  • and even tried religion as a way of avoiding it.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: I was interested particularly in the bar scene.
  • That was a longer part of the play.
  • And I heard people commenting on it in between the acts.
  • The comments I heard particularly
  • from some older people were that it was very negative.
  • I believe you describe the bar situation
  • as vampirism at one point.
  • AL CARMINES: Yes.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: And that it was a comment basically
  • on promiscuity in the bar, is that correct,
  • or was it ostensibly--
  • AL CARMINES: Well, no.
  • It really wasn't a comment on promiscuity.
  • It was a comment more on--
  • I do believe that because of the situation in this country,
  • homosexuals face unique problems.
  • I mean problems that are not simply
  • the same kinds of problems that everyone faces.
  • But I do think that this particular problem transcends
  • homosexuality and heterosexuality.
  • And that is a tremendous preoccupation and fascination
  • with youth and beauty.
  • I think this country has been the victim
  • of an idolization of the youth culture
  • for the past twenty years.
  • And it infects all of us.
  • We're all afraid to get old, we all fear old age.
  • And we think somehow that once we've passed a certain age
  • that life is over.
  • And what I was trying to say in this bar scene,
  • essentially, is that we feed on our young people.
  • We cannibalize them in a certain kind of way
  • because we are afraid of our own age.
  • We are afraid of our own time and our own wisdom
  • and our own maturity.
  • And we constantly want to be young.
  • And one of the ways we try to be young
  • is by gobbling up young people, by somehow fastening ourselves
  • onto them and using their youth as a substitute for our own.
  • And I think that's a dangerous tendency.
  • I think not to accept yourself at whatever age
  • you are, thirty, forty, fifty, sixty,
  • whether you're gay or straight, is a dangerous tendency
  • in this country.
  • We see older businessmen grabbing young girls
  • in that way.
  • And I think we do see older homosexuals sometimes
  • using young and beautiful homosexuals
  • as a kind of avoidance of their own age
  • and their own place in life.
  • And that's partly what this scene is about, actually.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Well, this seems to be a spreading tendency
  • in this country.
  • I recently read an article on the Saturday Review concerning
  • a singles apartment building, which
  • I thought from the description that I was given
  • was one of the most promiscuous scenes I've ever heard about.
  • AL CARMINES: Well, I think also the gay bar cantata
  • has to do with a kind of restlessness and a kind of--
  • promiscuity of course, many people
  • think of promiscuity as a way of making contact
  • with other people.
  • I think of promiscuity in the most part as a way of avoiding
  • contact with other people.
  • If you move from person to person, what it generally means
  • is that you never really establish
  • contact with any one person.
  • I'm not a moralist in the sense that I'm putting down
  • everything but monogamy, no.
  • But I am saying that promiscuity can
  • be a way of maintaining a superficial lifestyle
  • because one is afraid of being known or really knowing
  • another person.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: In the play again, there
  • was a scene having to do with Oscar Wilde and Bosie.
  • And I found this scene a little confusing.
  • And some of the people I talked to found it a little confusing.
  • Could you explain what that was about?
  • You contrasted, I might as well mention,
  • to the scene between Gertrude Stein
  • and Alice B. Toklas which was rather positive by comparison
  • to the scene between Oscar Wilde and Bosie.
  • AL CARMINES: It's interesting because I
  • think I find the Oscar Wilde, Bosie scene very positive,
  • although many people in the audience do not.
  • I'm essentially talking in that scene about people
  • who love one another, who live together, and who struggle.
  • I must say I have met very few couples who
  • were like Alice and Gertrude.
  • That is, who lived together for years
  • and somehow live in a kind of bliss
  • that I think was quite genuine for them historically as well
  • as in the play, of kind of perfect peace in one another.
  • Most couples I know who live together struggle.
  • They struggle because one loves in one way,
  • one loves in another one.
  • One is more dominant, one is more passive.
  • One is more talented, one is less talented.
  • One is more beautiful, one is less beautiful.
  • All of those things create problems between people.
  • But in the scene, I have Oscar say
  • to Bosie, "You know, at least when I'm with you
  • I know I'm living.
  • I know I'm alive."
  • And with all the struggles and with all the pain,
  • there is a sense of vividness of life.
  • And I think that's how most people live their lives.
  • I don't think most couples, straight
  • or gay, live lives of absolute peace together day by day.
  • I think a relationship is work, and hard work.
  • And involves much pain many times.
  • And in that sense, I find the statement of the Oscar, Bosie
  • thing very positive, because it seems to me here
  • are two people who could just say, to hell with it,
  • and leave one another.
  • But instead say, at least I find in you something
  • that makes me feel alive and I'm going to stick with it,
  • even though there's pain.
  • Sometimes it's hell, sometimes I hate you, sometimes I love you.
  • But nevertheless, I feel this kind of contact with you.
  • So in that sense, you know, I find this positive
  • although I can understand people rejecting it.
  • That brings up another point though
  • because I think people in any movement,
  • whether it's the gay movement or women's movement
  • or whatever, have difficulty sometimes
  • with an image being projected of the people who
  • are involved in their movement being anything but perfect.
  • And it seems to me that one of the things that art does
  • is somehow come through the cracks of any movement
  • and show the human dimension, you know?
  • We all like to think that our movement, particularly
  • if we're a minority movement, that all of our people
  • are wonderful and that life is just peaches if people
  • would only accept us.
  • But that's not true.
  • There are human problems.
  • You know, all gay isn't beautiful.
  • And I think it's very important to say that because otherwise,
  • we're involved in a kind of propaganda which
  • isn't true to life.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: You let people down
  • when they find out that they're not all angels.
  • AL CARMINES: Exactly.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: And it's going unrecognized.
  • AL CARMINES: Sure.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: I was drawn to the Gertrude Stein, Alice B. Toklas
  • scene as well because it seemed that their happiness sprung
  • from a kind of emphasis that I've seen in Zen Buddhism,
  • though I realize you're not a Buddhist.
  • Insofar as they gained great pleasure
  • from the daily routine tasks of life.
  • AL CARMINES: Yes.
  • Well, Gertrude Stein is a great enthusiasm of mine.
  • I've set three of her plays to music and made operas of them.
  • And read a lot about her life and known
  • many people who knew her.
  • And one of the marvelous things about Gertrude Stein
  • is that she saw extraordinary things in ordinary things.
  • That is, to her a dish, a word, a table was not simply
  • something to be gotten through or avoided or taken
  • for granted.
  • She saw wonders in the ordinary tasks and things of life.
  • And I think that their love was very much related to this.
  • And in fact, I would say many of the happy couples I know,
  • whether gay or straight, are couples who find joy
  • not in the extraordinary--
  • only in the extraordinary moments
  • of passion or pain or great feeling,
  • but find great joy in the simple tasks of life,
  • cleaning, painting, fixing a meal.
  • And it seems to me that that's part of what love is about.
  • And I contrast that in my mind with a scene in the first act
  • called "Desperation" where a young guy
  • says, "In a homosexual world, some people
  • would choose to be heterosexual just
  • so they could be desperate."
  • And, you know, there are people who
  • simply want to be desperate, they really
  • don't want to be happy.
  • They are always moaning because they're not happy,
  • but if happiness came up and kissed
  • them they would turn away from it because what they really
  • want is a kind of anxiety all the time.
  • And I'm saying that Gertrude and Alice had
  • come to the place where they didn't want anxiety
  • and they wanted a kind of security,
  • and they found it in the very ordinary things of life.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: There was one other scene
  • which interested me.
  • This is the scene called "fag hag."
  • On the West Coast where I'm from,
  • that's referred to as a "fruit fly."
  • AL CARMINES: (Laughs)
  • BRUCE JEWELL: It's a name I think I'd prefer to "fag hag."
  • What inspired that particular scene?
  • The "fruit fly" or "fag hag" is of course
  • to be found on every gay scene.
  • But what inspired it in your play?
  • AL CARMINES: Well, partly I think reality, that is,
  • there are women who find their deepest friendships
  • with homosexual men.
  • And we know that.
  • And I find that that's often made
  • fun of in both gay and straight society.
  • People say "fag hag," and dismiss people like that.
  • I find it one of the most positive scenes in play
  • actually, because here is a young woman who's
  • fascinated by gay men.
  • Perhaps because she's-- excuse me.
  • I find it positive because here's a woman,
  • maybe she's threatened by straight men.
  • Maybe she is frightened of them, god knows what.
  • But she suddenly discovers a whole group of men
  • that she feels safe with and secure with and then she
  • falls in love.
  • And, you know, one of the problems
  • I think with the whole gay, straight dichotomy
  • is that it finally isn't an absolute dichotomy.
  • There are always loves that transcend one's sexual being.
  • And here were a man and a woman who
  • fell in love even though the man was presumably gay
  • and she was presumably straight.
  • Who maintained a relationship, as she says, for eight months.
  • They fight a lot but they love each other.
  • And it was a way of trying to say, life is full of surprises.
  • You can't just dismiss someone as a "fag hag" or a fag
  • or as a straight or as a this or as a that.
  • You see, it's, life has a way of coming through
  • and suddenly you find you love someone that you
  • thought you couldn't love.
  • Or you have a relationship with someone
  • you'd always just said, no, I can't have a relationship
  • with that kind of person.
  • And that's kind of the meaning of that scene.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Now Mr. Carmines, you're not only
  • an actor and a writer and a producer,
  • but you're a minister.
  • AL CARMINES: Yes.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: And I would be interested in knowing
  • how you feel about the rise of gay churches in this country.
  • MCC led by Troy Perry has expanded.
  • I believe there are forty churches in this country
  • and now they're expanding overseas.
  • What do you think of this?
  • AL CARMINES: Well, I'd say basically my attitude
  • toward this is quite positive.
  • I think that gay people have been
  • excluded from the feeling of the life of the church
  • so many years.
  • And been made to feel that they were
  • pariahs somehow and didn't belong
  • in the community of the faithful because they were
  • kind of congenital sinners.
  • That I think the idea of churches
  • that say the gospel is for all people, the good news of God
  • can be experienced in the gay life as well as
  • the straight life is very good.
  • My only qualm, and it's not really a qualm,
  • would simply be that I find difficulty
  • with churches that are built around any one
  • kind of human being.
  • And in our church here at Judson we do have gay people,
  • we have straight people, we have people in their sixties,
  • we have people who are teenagers.
  • We have a great diversity of people
  • who I think accept one another.
  • I feel more comfortable in that kind of environment.
  • I am not-- I finally am unhappy in any ghetto,
  • whether it's a gay ghetto, a straight ghetto, a white one
  • or a black one.
  • I'm not-- I don't particularly enjoy simply
  • being with one kind of person all the time,
  • or feeling that the church should be composed of that.
  • So in that sense, I would prefer churches
  • that are open to any kinds of human beings.
  • And that kind of diversity I think makes one grow.
  • On the other hand because of the historical situation,
  • I think there's a perfectly good reason and rationale
  • and purpose for gay churches and I support them.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: I imagine that there
  • are a great many gay people who would prefer not
  • to go to simply gay churches.
  • But there becomes that that point, a problem
  • of how to approach a church.
  • It's very demoralizing, I should imagine,
  • to approach your church in the closet.
  • Pretending that you're straight at all times
  • and having to, perhaps as is so common, you know,
  • distort truths about oneself in order
  • to get along with the rest of the congregation and so on.
  • AL CARMINES: Yes, I think that is demoralizing.
  • And I can see why people reject that.
  • On the other hand, I think there are some churches, particularly
  • in urban centers, that are open to gay people
  • and to the point of view that gay people represent often.
  • And in that sense, I think that's happening more and more.
  • I find churches certainly other than Judson
  • or other than my own denomination in this city
  • where gay people I think feel fairly at home.
  • Not totally at home, but I'm not sure
  • one should feel totally at home in any church
  • no matter what one is.
  • It's partly the tension between what is not understood
  • and what is understood that makes for growth.
  • That doesn't mean I think you should be in a situation
  • where you have to lie or where you have to somehow remain
  • in the closet.
  • However it may not be bad to be in a situation
  • where you have to give a little bit of account of yourself,
  • tell your story to people who are not intolerant
  • but somehow perhaps don't understand.
  • Because it's that kind of contact
  • that not only makes a straight person grow, but helps
  • a gay person to grow too and understand themselves, I think.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Just one last closing question here.
  • I speak for myself, enjoyed the play enormously.
  • I liked the subjects it brought up.
  • And I would like to see it made available
  • for other people to see in other parts of the country.
  • Rochester, for example.
  • Is there going to be an album produced of this play
  • as there was of Joan?
  • AL CARMINES: Well, I think if we do move Off-Broadway which
  • we think we will do, there will be an album of the show.
  • And also we're talking very seriously
  • about a college tour of the show.
  • I think colleges would find the play
  • stimulating and interesting.
  • And so I hope we'll be at Rochester maybe
  • within the next year.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Thank you very much Mr. Carmines.
  • AL CARMINES: Thank you.