Audio Interview, Al Carmines, 1973
- BRUCE JEWELL: Put Humpty together again.
- This is Bruce Jewell testing his tape recorder
- to see how it's doing.
- This is Bruce Jewell testing his Sony tape recorder
- to see if it survived the trip.
- AL CARMINES: Testing one, two, three, four.
- BRUCE JEWELL: Testing one, two, three, four.
- Mr. Carmines, the first thing that interests
- me is the name of the play, The Faggot.
- It's a name usually associated with discrimination.
- And I noticed that some people even
- had difficulty using the term in front of the theater.
- Why did you name it The Faggot?
- AL CARMINES: Because I felt that what the oratorio was about
- and where homosexuality is in this country
- right now is better expressed by using that term,
- than simply by using a term like "the homosexual in America"
- or "the homophile meets his doom" or something like that.
- I felt it would be like doing a play about women's lib
- and calling it "girl" because I felt that that term is
- a term of opprobrium in many ways,
- is a term that's been used to oppress homosexuals.
- And I wanted that right up front.
- I didn't want to indicate that I didn't
- think there is discrimination.
- I think there is.
- BRUCE JEWELL: Could you tell me something
- about the history of the play, how the idea came about?
- AL CARMINES: Well, it's very hard
- to say how ideas come about for plays for me.
- I remember before I wrote it, I was thinking what
- to do for the next play here.
- And I had two topics in mind, neither of which
- was The Faggot.
- One was Saint Paul and one was The Policeman.
- I was trying to decide between the two of them,
- either a biography of Saint Paul in the Bible
- or a day in the life of a New York City cop.
- And in the midst of all those reflections,
- I had a flash I guess, is the only way to describe it.
- That what I really wanted the oratorio to be about
- was something totally different, namely, homosexuality.
- And I've done about nine oratorios.
- And my general thought each time is what I
- call phenomenological thought.
- That is, I like to take some phenomenon of modern society
- or of life and examine it from all the angles I can think of.
- I've written a play called Joan which
- deals with modern sainthood.
- I've written one called A Look at the 50s, which
- looks at the 1950s in that way.
- And that's why I like the oratorio form,
- because you don't have one plot going from beginning to end.
- And you can look at it from many points of view,
- through a chorus, through a scene, through a solo,
- through a duet.
- And essentially I thought I want to deal with homosexuality not
- in a kind of plot-oriented play about a person's
- life in that way, but as a kind of sociological phenomenon.
- And I felt that the way to do that was
- to deal with it in the oratorio form
- where I could have a scene between two men
- and then a scene between two women,
- and a scene in a bar, a chorus, and so forth.
- So I use a phenomenological method
- and this was the subject this time, I guess.
- BRUCE JEWELL: This play was produced as a--
- what is it called?
- A showcase production?
- AL CARMINES: Yes.
- BRUCE JEWELL: Could you explain what that is in relation
- to a play that might be produced on Broadway or something
- like that?
- AL CARMINES: Yes.
- Eleven years ago, we began our theater here.
- And we were the first Off-Off-Broadway theater.
- Up until that point in New York City for a play to be produced,
- it was usually either Broadway or Off-Broadway.
- And the costs were so prohibitive for just artists
- beginning that there was no place where a writer could just
- come to New York and do his play without paying thousands
- of dollars.
- So we began a theater here for the playwright where
- he could come have his play produced
- without that kind of tie-in with a producer
- or without that kind of money being put to it.
- And now there are about fifty Off-Off-Broadway theaters
- in New York.
- What they are is experimental places
- where a show is run for a certain amount of time.
- No one is paid.
- People rehearse in the evenings or on weekends.
- You ask for a very minimum contribution
- from your audience, which covers the set and the lights
- and the scenery and the costumes and the advertising.
- And what it is is it's really a kind of trial.
- And it helps the playwright to see
- how people react to his play and what needs to be changed,
- what doesn't need to be changed.
- And it helps the actors because they get exposure,
- and agents see them, producers see them.
- And generally speaking, I've found
- some of the most exciting theater in New York
- is not on Broadway or even Off-Broadway,
- but Off-Off-Broadway at coffee shops, churches,
- and lofts like this.
- BRUCE JEWELL: Do you think that this play
- might be produced again later?
- AL CARMINES: Yes, there are producers
- very interested in moving it to a commercial situation
- and I would like to see it done.
- Partly because I think a lot more people would get to see it
- and partly because the actors get paid in such a situation.
- So I think we will probably move to an Off-Broadway theater.
- BRUCE JEWELL: I'm glad to hear that.
- Was it--now not--I would assume many members of the cast are
- straight.
- AL CARMINES: Yes.
- BRUCE JEWELL: Did any of them find it
- something of a consciousness-raising
- experience to play gay people or homosexuals?
- AL CARMINES: It's very interesting to me,
- the experience of the cast in this play.
- Because I think it was consciousness
- raising not only for the heterosexual members
- of the cast, but for the homosexual ones too.
- And that's what interested me the most.
- And the response to the play, in fact, has been mixed.
- Some gay people have loved it and some have hated it.
- And some straight people have loved it
- and some have hated it.
- So it has not been divided in terms
- of both the raising of the consciousness of the cast
- and the response from the audience
- along gay, straight lines at all.
- It's been very individual kinds of response.
- And I've heard groups of gay people arguing about it
- after the show, some saying they thought it was wonderful
- and some saying they thought it was terrible.
- And I've heard the same thing by straight people.
- We had a colloquium on the show last Sunday,
- I preached on it in church.
- And we had a meeting afterwards to discuss it.
- And I was very interested because quite
- a few married couples came to the colloquium
- and said how they felt the play had spoken
- to them about their relationship even though it was ostensibly
- about gay relationships, that they felt the qualities that
- were brought out in several of the relationships
- in the play applied to their marriage.
- And they realized how similar and how in fact, the problems
- are often the same between any two people trying to relate.
- There are the same kind of tensions,
- the same kind of fears, the same kinds of loves.
- So in that sense, I think a lot of gay members of the cast
- have spoken to me and said it raised their consciousness as
- far as simply human relationships go.
- And several of the straight members of the cast
- have said the same thing.
- BRUCE JEWELL: It seemed to me that there
- were three major themes, perhaps more,
- but three that struck me in the play.
- One was the emphasis on fantasy.
- Another was the emphasis on fear and furtiveness,
- which seemed to be coupled.
- And the third was the positive emphasis
- on people learning about one another
- through mutual self-exploration.
- AL CARMINES: Yes.
- The fantasy theme is a theme that I
- think is understandable but important.
- I think homosexuals in this country have been oppressed
- in the kinds of ways that mean that often in many places
- in this country, they cannot be open about their attractions,
- their loves, their lives.
- Which means that they are forced into a kind of fantasy life
- many times, it seems to me.
- And I think that's both sad and dangerous.
- And so one of the aspects I do deal with is fantasy.
- And as you know, in one of the scenes one of the men
- says he's living in a society where
- homosexuality is quite legal.
- And nevertheless, he said in his youth,
- he became so used to living a fantasy life
- that he can't accept the reality of the situation.
- He still wants to go on with his fantasy life.
- Also I guess the key song of the show
- is one called "Women with Women, Men with Men."
- We learn about ourselves through exploring what is like us.
- And I think we often think that we learn about ourselves
- sexually and in other ways by exploring
- what is different from us.
- But another way to learn, of course,
- is by exploring what is like us.
- And I believe that there is such a thing as the papers have
- been saying, as homophobia.
- That is, people who are so frightened of being
- homosexual that they turn to crime,
- they turn to drug addiction, they turn to many things
- because anything seems preferable to them
- to this sexual ambiguity.
- BRUCE JEWELL: Is that what the little skit, "You
- Have Seventy Years to Say No"
- AL CARMINES: Yes, that's right.
- Seventy years or so, seventy years to find
- reasons not to do something.
- And then they say, what a wonderful way
- to live ironically, of course.
- And then there is the scene also with the religious devotees who
- try everything to keep from admitting their homosexuality
- and even tried religion as a way of avoiding it.
- BRUCE JEWELL: I was interested particularly in the bar scene.
- That was a longer part of the play.
- And I heard people commenting on it in between the acts.
- The comments I heard particularly
- from some older people were that it was very negative.
- I believe you describe the bar situation
- as vampirism at one point.
- AL CARMINES: Yes.
- BRUCE JEWELL: And that it was a comment basically
- on promiscuity in the bar, is that correct,
- or was it ostensibly--
- AL CARMINES: Well, no.
- It really wasn't a comment on promiscuity.
- It was a comment more on--
- I do believe that because of the situation in this country,
- homosexuals face unique problems.
- I mean problems that are not simply
- the same kinds of problems that everyone faces.
- But I do think that this particular problem transcends
- homosexuality and heterosexuality.
- And that is a tremendous preoccupation and fascination
- with youth and beauty.
- I think this country has been the victim
- of an idolization of the youth culture
- for the past twenty years.
- And it infects all of us.
- We're all afraid to get old, we all fear old age.
- And we think somehow that once we've passed a certain age
- that life is over.
- And what I was trying to say in this bar scene,
- essentially, is that we feed on our young people.
- We cannibalize them in a certain kind of way
- because we are afraid of our own age.
- We are afraid of our own time and our own wisdom
- and our own maturity.
- And we constantly want to be young.
- And one of the ways we try to be young
- is by gobbling up young people, by somehow fastening ourselves
- onto them and using their youth as a substitute for our own.
- And I think that's a dangerous tendency.
- I think not to accept yourself at whatever age
- you are, thirty, forty, fifty, sixty,
- whether you're gay or straight, is a dangerous tendency
- in this country.
- We see older businessmen grabbing young girls
- in that way.
- And I think we do see older homosexuals sometimes
- using young and beautiful homosexuals
- as a kind of avoidance of their own age
- and their own place in life.
- And that's partly what this scene is about, actually.
- BRUCE JEWELL: Well, this seems to be a spreading tendency
- in this country.
- I recently read an article on the Saturday Review concerning
- a singles apartment building, which
- I thought from the description that I was given
- was one of the most promiscuous scenes I've ever heard about.
- AL CARMINES: Well, I think also the gay bar cantata
- has to do with a kind of restlessness and a kind of--
- promiscuity of course, many people
- think of promiscuity as a way of making contact
- with other people.
- I think of promiscuity in the most part as a way of avoiding
- contact with other people.
- If you move from person to person, what it generally means
- is that you never really establish
- contact with any one person.
- I'm not a moralist in the sense that I'm putting down
- everything but monogamy, no.
- But I am saying that promiscuity can
- be a way of maintaining a superficial lifestyle
- because one is afraid of being known or really knowing
- another person.
- BRUCE JEWELL: In the play again, there
- was a scene having to do with Oscar Wilde and Bosie.
- And I found this scene a little confusing.
- And some of the people I talked to found it a little confusing.
- Could you explain what that was about?
- You contrasted, I might as well mention,
- to the scene between Gertrude Stein
- and Alice B. Toklas which was rather positive by comparison
- to the scene between Oscar Wilde and Bosie.
- AL CARMINES: It's interesting because I
- think I find the Oscar Wilde, Bosie scene very positive,
- although many people in the audience do not.
- I'm essentially talking in that scene about people
- who love one another, who live together, and who struggle.
- I must say I have met very few couples who
- were like Alice and Gertrude.
- That is, who lived together for years
- and somehow live in a kind of bliss
- that I think was quite genuine for them historically as well
- as in the play, of kind of perfect peace in one another.
- Most couples I know who live together struggle.
- They struggle because one loves in one way,
- one loves in another one.
- One is more dominant, one is more passive.
- One is more talented, one is less talented.
- One is more beautiful, one is less beautiful.
- All of those things create problems between people.
- But in the scene, I have Oscar say
- to Bosie, "You know, at least when I'm with you
- I know I'm living.
- I know I'm alive."
- And with all the struggles and with all the pain,
- there is a sense of vividness of life.
- And I think that's how most people live their lives.
- I don't think most couples, straight
- or gay, live lives of absolute peace together day by day.
- I think a relationship is work, and hard work.
- And involves much pain many times.
- And in that sense, I find the statement of the Oscar, Bosie
- thing very positive, because it seems to me here
- are two people who could just say, to hell with it,
- and leave one another.
- But instead say, at least I find in you something
- that makes me feel alive and I'm going to stick with it,
- even though there's pain.
- Sometimes it's hell, sometimes I hate you, sometimes I love you.
- But nevertheless, I feel this kind of contact with you.
- So in that sense, you know, I find this positive
- although I can understand people rejecting it.
- That brings up another point though
- because I think people in any movement,
- whether it's the gay movement or women's movement
- or whatever, have difficulty sometimes
- with an image being projected of the people who
- are involved in their movement being anything but perfect.
- And it seems to me that one of the things that art does
- is somehow come through the cracks of any movement
- and show the human dimension, you know?
- We all like to think that our movement, particularly
- if we're a minority movement, that all of our people
- are wonderful and that life is just peaches if people
- would only accept us.
- But that's not true.
- There are human problems.
- You know, all gay isn't beautiful.
- And I think it's very important to say that because otherwise,
- we're involved in a kind of propaganda which
- isn't true to life.
- BRUCE JEWELL: You let people down
- when they find out that they're not all angels.
- AL CARMINES: Exactly.
- BRUCE JEWELL: And it's going unrecognized.
- AL CARMINES: Sure.
- BRUCE JEWELL: I was drawn to the Gertrude Stein, Alice B. Toklas
- scene as well because it seemed that their happiness sprung
- from a kind of emphasis that I've seen in Zen Buddhism,
- though I realize you're not a Buddhist.
- Insofar as they gained great pleasure
- from the daily routine tasks of life.
- AL CARMINES: Yes.
- Well, Gertrude Stein is a great enthusiasm of mine.
- I've set three of her plays to music and made operas of them.
- And read a lot about her life and known
- many people who knew her.
- And one of the marvelous things about Gertrude Stein
- is that she saw extraordinary things in ordinary things.
- That is, to her a dish, a word, a table was not simply
- something to be gotten through or avoided or taken
- for granted.
- She saw wonders in the ordinary tasks and things of life.
- And I think that their love was very much related to this.
- And in fact, I would say many of the happy couples I know,
- whether gay or straight, are couples who find joy
- not in the extraordinary--
- only in the extraordinary moments
- of passion or pain or great feeling,
- but find great joy in the simple tasks of life,
- cleaning, painting, fixing a meal.
- And it seems to me that that's part of what love is about.
- And I contrast that in my mind with a scene in the first act
- called "Desperation" where a young guy
- says, "In a homosexual world, some people
- would choose to be heterosexual just
- so they could be desperate."
- And, you know, there are people who
- simply want to be desperate, they really
- don't want to be happy.
- They are always moaning because they're not happy,
- but if happiness came up and kissed
- them they would turn away from it because what they really
- want is a kind of anxiety all the time.
- And I'm saying that Gertrude and Alice had
- come to the place where they didn't want anxiety
- and they wanted a kind of security,
- and they found it in the very ordinary things of life.
- BRUCE JEWELL: There was one other scene
- which interested me.
- This is the scene called "fag hag."
- On the West Coast where I'm from,
- that's referred to as a "fruit fly."
- AL CARMINES: (Laughs)
- BRUCE JEWELL: It's a name I think I'd prefer to "fag hag."
- What inspired that particular scene?
- The "fruit fly" or "fag hag" is of course
- to be found on every gay scene.
- But what inspired it in your play?
- AL CARMINES: Well, partly I think reality, that is,
- there are women who find their deepest friendships
- with homosexual men.
- And we know that.
- And I find that that's often made
- fun of in both gay and straight society.
- People say "fag hag," and dismiss people like that.
- I find it one of the most positive scenes in play
- actually, because here is a young woman who's
- fascinated by gay men.
- Perhaps because she's-- excuse me.
- I find it positive because here's a woman,
- maybe she's threatened by straight men.
- Maybe she is frightened of them, god knows what.
- But she suddenly discovers a whole group of men
- that she feels safe with and secure with and then she
- falls in love.
- And, you know, one of the problems
- I think with the whole gay, straight dichotomy
- is that it finally isn't an absolute dichotomy.
- There are always loves that transcend one's sexual being.
- And here were a man and a woman who
- fell in love even though the man was presumably gay
- and she was presumably straight.
- Who maintained a relationship, as she says, for eight months.
- They fight a lot but they love each other.
- And it was a way of trying to say, life is full of surprises.
- You can't just dismiss someone as a "fag hag" or a fag
- or as a straight or as a this or as a that.
- You see, it's, life has a way of coming through
- and suddenly you find you love someone that you
- thought you couldn't love.
- Or you have a relationship with someone
- you'd always just said, no, I can't have a relationship
- with that kind of person.
- And that's kind of the meaning of that scene.
- BRUCE JEWELL: Now Mr. Carmines, you're not only
- an actor and a writer and a producer,
- but you're a minister.
- AL CARMINES: Yes.
- BRUCE JEWELL: And I would be interested in knowing
- how you feel about the rise of gay churches in this country.
- MCC led by Troy Perry has expanded.
- I believe there are forty churches in this country
- and now they're expanding overseas.
- What do you think of this?
- AL CARMINES: Well, I'd say basically my attitude
- toward this is quite positive.
- I think that gay people have been
- excluded from the feeling of the life of the church
- so many years.
- And been made to feel that they were
- pariahs somehow and didn't belong
- in the community of the faithful because they were
- kind of congenital sinners.
- That I think the idea of churches
- that say the gospel is for all people, the good news of God
- can be experienced in the gay life as well as
- the straight life is very good.
- My only qualm, and it's not really a qualm,
- would simply be that I find difficulty
- with churches that are built around any one
- kind of human being.
- And in our church here at Judson we do have gay people,
- we have straight people, we have people in their sixties,
- we have people who are teenagers.
- We have a great diversity of people
- who I think accept one another.
- I feel more comfortable in that kind of environment.
- I am not-- I finally am unhappy in any ghetto,
- whether it's a gay ghetto, a straight ghetto, a white one
- or a black one.
- I'm not-- I don't particularly enjoy simply
- being with one kind of person all the time,
- or feeling that the church should be composed of that.
- So in that sense, I would prefer churches
- that are open to any kinds of human beings.
- And that kind of diversity I think makes one grow.
- On the other hand because of the historical situation,
- I think there's a perfectly good reason and rationale
- and purpose for gay churches and I support them.
- BRUCE JEWELL: I imagine that there
- are a great many gay people who would prefer not
- to go to simply gay churches.
- But there becomes that that point, a problem
- of how to approach a church.
- It's very demoralizing, I should imagine,
- to approach your church in the closet.
- Pretending that you're straight at all times
- and having to, perhaps as is so common, you know,
- distort truths about oneself in order
- to get along with the rest of the congregation and so on.
- AL CARMINES: Yes, I think that is demoralizing.
- And I can see why people reject that.
- On the other hand, I think there are some churches, particularly
- in urban centers, that are open to gay people
- and to the point of view that gay people represent often.
- And in that sense, I think that's happening more and more.
- I find churches certainly other than Judson
- or other than my own denomination in this city
- where gay people I think feel fairly at home.
- Not totally at home, but I'm not sure
- one should feel totally at home in any church
- no matter what one is.
- It's partly the tension between what is not understood
- and what is understood that makes for growth.
- That doesn't mean I think you should be in a situation
- where you have to lie or where you have to somehow remain
- in the closet.
- However it may not be bad to be in a situation
- where you have to give a little bit of account of yourself,
- tell your story to people who are not intolerant
- but somehow perhaps don't understand.
- Because it's that kind of contact
- that not only makes a straight person grow, but helps
- a gay person to grow too and understand themselves, I think.
- BRUCE JEWELL: Just one last closing question here.
- I speak for myself, enjoyed the play enormously.
- I liked the subjects it brought up.
- And I would like to see it made available
- for other people to see in other parts of the country.
- Rochester, for example.
- Is there going to be an album produced of this play
- as there was of Joan?
- AL CARMINES: Well, I think if we do move Off-Broadway which
- we think we will do, there will be an album of the show.
- And also we're talking very seriously
- about a college tour of the show.
- I think colleges would find the play
- stimulating and interesting.
- And so I hope we'll be at Rochester maybe
- within the next year.
- BRUCE JEWELL: Thank you very much Mr. Carmines.
- AL CARMINES: Thank you.