Audio Interview, Bess Watts and Anne Tischer, September 28, 2012

EVELYN BAILEY: Today we're sitting here

with Anne Tischer and Bess Watts,

two gay activists in Rochester who have really

been in the forefront of gay marriage issues

for the past five or six years, or longer.

BESS WATTS: Closer to ten or eleven.

EVELYN BAILEY: And this day is Friday, September 28, 2012.

So my first question, to both Anne and Bess,

is where were you born.

ANNE TISCHER: I was born in Rochester, on the east side.

EVELYN BAILEY: And Bess?

BESS WATTS: I was born in Murray, Utah.

EVELYN BAILEY: Utah?

BESS WATTS: Yes, Utah.

EVELYN BAILEY: Were you a Mormon?

BESS WATTS: Yes, baptized when I was eleven.

EVELYN BAILEY: Oh my.

When did you come to Rochester?

BESS WATTS: I came to Rochester probably in 1995.

I moved here from Hornell.

I worked at Alfred University .

But before that, I was in San Diego.

I was in the military.

After I graduated from high school.

I served in the US army for six years.

And then--

EVELYN BAILEY: What did you do in the army?

BESS WATTS: I was in administration.

I served in Germany.

I worked anywhere from the United States Army

in Europe for the headquarters for the post office.

I was responsible for unit's mail

and then in Presidio, San Francisco,

I served in the military police unit

as a dispatcher and the court liaison between the Presidio

and the city of San Francisco.

And then I went back to Germany.

And then I ended up getting out after six years, honorably

discharged.

I couldn't continue serving without being

out of the closet.

I just found not being able to be

true to who you are was very intellectually

and psychologically demanding.

EVELYN BAILEY: When did you know?

When did when did you come out to yourself?

BESS WATTS: Well I knew--

I often joke that I knew when I was two days old.

But I always knew there was something--

I mean I wasn't--

I would say high school definitely.

But I knew I was different.

I knew that I was not attracted to men.

I knew I was a lesbian.

But I had no no--

it was a very lonely experience because I

didn't think there was anybody else in the world that

thought like I did.

But until I joined the army, I think maybe there's

somebody like me, you think?

But then it was like, whoa.

But it took a long time to develop my identity.

And comfortable.

And overcome my own internalized homophobia.

EVELYN BAILEY: And were you out to your parents?

BESS WATTS: Not--

I didn't come out to my mother until I was probably

in my mid twenties.

I always referred to my girlfriend as Don.

It was Donna.

Don this.

Don that.

How's Don?

And then finally it was guess who's coming to dinner?

In more than one way, because Donna was African-American.

So it was really gay or African-American in Utah.

but I think it was difficult for my mother.

But my sisters-- and I think it's

one of the reasons you leave home

is to find your own family.

And create your own family.

But now I'm probably closer now to my mother and siblings

than I ever was growing up.

EVELYN BAILEY: And your father?

BESS WATTS: My father was disabled World War II veteran.

And my parents divorced when I was thirteen.

And I ended up going with my mother to Washington state.

And my father and I--

I always idolized him, but he was not the best of fathers.

But yet I used to joke that he lost his leg in Bouganville

Island in the Solomons.

And I've often joked that I followed in his footsteps

when I joined the Army.

I know it's kind of corny but.

He was a great guy, but he was never--

I think the war really impacted him in more ways

than anyone can comprehend.

We were close, but very superficially.

And now I'm really discovering and researching

what unit he served in.

And that's probably about it for me as far as growing up.

EVELYN BAILEY: And Anne, you were born in Rochester

and raised in Rochester?

ANNE TISCHER: Yes.

EVELYN BAILEY: All your life?

ANNE TISCHER: Yes.

Well I have escaped Rochester several times

to go live in Colorado or Rhode Island.

But have always wound up back here, largely for employment.

But I was raised in a comfortable white bread

environment out on the side of Rochester.

I never spoke to a person of color

until I went away to college.

I went to Catholic schools.

By temperament, I think that I tend

to be kind of bossy and combative.

And, unlike Bess, I had no idea that I

was lesbian until I accidentally fell in love with a woman

when I was about twenty-three.

And when I say it was a surprise.

I mean I fully expected to have a completely heterosexual life.

OK.

I had been proposed to by a guy who had a brand new Lincoln.

So that's why I was dating him.

And I when I fell in love, I of course, by temperament,

wasn't likely to go in the closet.

So I pretty much announced it to the world.

My family disappeared for about five years.

The plus side is that I found a tribe of lesbians

and I started--

we were lipstick lesbians out in the suburbs.

And it started one of the happiest,

funnest times of my life.

And so through the eighties, when

everyone else was dealing with maybe coming out struggles,

I was playing.

And so I barely, barely even hooked

into what was happening with AIDS until someone relatively

close was afflicted.

But at the same time, for me, I was still active

because I was at Xerox.

They had a diversity thing.

I was never in the closet at Xerox.

But because I was femmy looking, I had to keep coming out.

They kept forgetting.

When I went to Brockport, early nineties,

I restarted their gay club.

OK.

Wrote things.

Came out in the college paper.

So even though I wasn't what I would call an activist,

by temperament I was pretty much open.

EVELYN BAILEY: For both of you, when

you came to Rochester, Beth, and you're living,

were there resources available to you to support your journey?

To support your life?

ANNE TISCHER: The Gay Alliance, for me.

The Gay Alliance had some groups.

I won't say that I necessarily came here

to really struggle or overcome my struggle.

But I needed education.

All right.

Because I didn't know what was going on.

And certainly the woman that I was involved with

was struggling with her sexuality.

So I came to the Gay Alliance for some of the offerings

that they did.

And they had a coming out thing at one point.

And so they had that piece and I was grateful for it.

EVELYN BAILEY: Were there were other things in the community

that you found?

ANNE TISCHER: Scotch and water.

The bars.

EVELYN BAILEY: What about your church?

ANNE TISCHER: We didn't--

Bess and I didn't get-- well I left the Catholic church

when I was twelve, when I figured out I couldn't be pope.

And I was a big feminist.

And when I talk about being assertive around these issues

immediately, it was because I had gone

through the feminist stage.

And so equality is equality.

And the Catholic church was very--

I was refused communion once.

And so even though for a very long time

I wouldn't go anywhere else, the Catholic church

was impossible for me to stay there.

But when Bess and I got together,

which was eighteen years ago, I think you want a fellowship

and frankly, we're getting older.

You want some of the spiritual development

that helps you answer the big question in life.

Why am I here?

And so I wanted to go to Open Arms Metropolitan Community

Church.

And I made her come along.

BESS WATTS: That's true.

Yeah.

I've been kind of anti-religion pretty much.

Maybe I can attribute that to the Mormon background.

But it's funny because I think that as far as community goes,

I mean we've always had very close friends.

And me growing up, I've always depended on my friends.

And I didn't really realize that there were organizations

out there to help you struggle with your coming

to terms with your sexual orientation or overcoming--

and it wasn't until we got into activism that,

for me, that I really learned a lot more and connected

with the Gay Alliance, and other community.

Because I've always depended on my friends for community.

But as far as a resource, the gay alliance

taught us, or taught me, how to speak about GLBT issues

in a comprehensive way.

And it really was the catalyst in almost all the education

that I do to this day.

EVELYN BAILEY: When did you come to Rochester?

You were in Hornell.

BESS WATTS: I was in Hornell.

And when Anne and I got together, we were together--

we knew each other about seven years

before we actually got together.

ANNE TISCHER: I didn't know she was single.

BESS WATTS: Yeah.

And that's another story.

But we actually--

I had lived in Hornell for seven years.

And then when Anne and I got together,

we corresponded by letters, hand-written letters,

not email.

And we really got to know each other through those channels

for about six months.

And then I moved to Rochester to be with her.

And so that's been eighteen years now.

Since 1995.

So for there--

EVELYN BAILEY: Where did you work?

BESS WATTS: In '94.

Yeah.

Where did I work when I moved to Rochester?

It was funny.

I worked as an administrative assistant

for this-- it was called Monroe Livingston Regional Emergency

Medical Services, for about six months.

And it happened to be at the Dammon Campus.

That's where I saw the test for MCC.

And then I've been to MCC ever since for libraries.

Because I've worked in libraries for--

gosh, twenty-eight years.

In San Diego, I did and here.

EVELYN BAILEY: So you are both--

both come from a very professional background.

BESS WATTS: Yeah, somewhat.

Yeah.

Most of my education is through experience,

and working with people.

But I do have a lot of college.

But I don't have a degree.

Anne has a degree.

Don't you have a bachelor's?

ANNE TISCHER: It took me twenty-two years to get it.

I was a child in the sixties.

BESS WATTS: And I often joke I'm a professional lesbian.

So I'm a go-to lesbian at work.

EVELYN BAILEY: But Anne became involved with Xerox Galaxy,

at Xerox?

ANNE TISCHER: Actually it was before Galaxy.

I worked at Xerox.

But they were very supportive for diversity

and women's issues.

And so I was out there.

And it was--

EVELYN BAILEY: Do you remember the year?

ANNE TISCHER: I left in the late eighties.

So I left in '87 from Xerox.

EVELYN BAILEY: And they still didn't have Galaxy?

ANNE TISCHER: They were just starting that up.

And I was not aware of it.

But I wasn't looking.

Again, if you are in a nice little nest.

Everyone that I worked with was comfortable.

I was out, joking about sexuality.

And if you're in a nice little nest,

you don't necessarily go looking to fight a battle.

And at that time, life was good.

I was healthy.

I was making great money.

I had a home.

We had a cottage.

Life was good.

EVELYN BAILEY: So would you say the same of MCC?

That it was an open?

BESS WATTS: No.

Well not really.

Not in the beginning.

I was very-- I guess you could say I was somewhat--

Well I wasn't in the closet, but I wasn't real out either.

Because when you're starting a new job,

you need to to get the culture of the institution.

And I didn't think at the time--

I've been with MCC for fifteen years.

And I remember going to a diversity speaker.

And he didn't once mention sexual orientation.

And I regret not saying anything about that at the time.

But I wasn't out at the time.

I mean I wasn't vocal.

Now I would-- people, make sure you mention--

Bess is here.

Make sure you mention sexual orientation.

And I think that because there was no faculty that

was out or pressing the issue is because it wasn't

an inclusive-- it didn't feel to me to be

an inclusive environment.

It wasn't until I started advocating for domestic partner

benefits at MCC that--

and that happened in 2004 or 2005.

ANNE TISCHER: 2004.

BESS WATTS: I went to my union president at the time

to see if they could negotiate domestic partner benefits

because they didn't have any.

And Anne's mother had died.

And I had to take vacation time to go to her funeral.

And then shortly thereafter, then that following year, Anne

had to have major surgery in Ohio.

And I had to take--

I had depleted my vacation back by literally

nursing her back to health.

And I really was resentful for that.

And in part of my personal testimony, when

I was advocating for DP benefits,

was I put that in the story, or in my essay.

And I talked about attending the diversity conference

and not hearing sexual orientation.

I said, in other words, I didn't hear me.

I talked about Kodak and Bausch & Lomb,

and how inclusive they were.

And how can we as an institution espouse diversity and inclusion

when we don't treat our faculty, staff,

and students in the same way.

And I believe that it was through that testimony

that the domestic partner benefits was negotiated.

It was approved by the board of trustees,

which Wayne Zira was on the board of trustees at the time.

And we got it.

And I remember the date before it was ratified,

I was there listening to the count.

And I don't remember, but it passed overwhelmingly.

And I really, literally burst into tears

because it was the first time that I felt included in,

and an equal to my peers.

And that was really the catalyst that turned me

into an accidental activist.

EVELYN BAILEY: OK.

That's what I was going to ask you,

if that was the turning point for you to become

more active in the community and in gay issues.

BESS WATTS: Absolutely.

And especially, within labor, because the one thing

about Bausch & Lomb, and Kodak and, Xerox,

it's good for business.

They want to attract the best talent.

But when you're negotiating contracts,

somebody has to come out and ask for those contracts

to be negotiated.

If you're a pipefitter or you're an electrician,

are you going to go to your business

agent or your representative and say,

hey, I need my boyfriend to be on--

or my girlfriend to be on my health insurance.

It really creates a vulnerability.

And that was the catalyst that got me involved,

not only in labor, but also it planted the seed

for starting the chapter of Pride At Work.

So labor would have a resource to go

to for the voice of those union members under contract.

And to know what the correct language would be

or how we could speak for them or anything.

It's so important to be visible.

And I'm convinced to this day that we're

doing labor an enormous favor and they're happy

that we're there.

Because everybody has a son or daughter or a community

member who identifies as GLBT.

EVELYN BAILEY: What was the catalyst, for you, Anne?

ANNE TISCHER: It was the same thing.

Prior to that, anything that I had

done that might be construed as activism,

was just kind of emotionally driven

without a plan et cetera.

It would be in response to a social injustice

that I was experiencing or--

so it would be just an emotional response.

What happened here when we went--

after Bess achieved domestic partner benefits

at the college, she tried to get it into, of course,

the entire county, for all the employees.

And I had been a county employee.

After Xerox, I ended up working for Monroe County.

EVELYN BAILEY: For Maggie Brooks!

Oh, my gosh.

ANNE TISCHER: Where I worked with three gay men,

none of whom were out.

I was out.

OK.

So I experienced that hostile environment.

Well, by 2004, I wasn't with the county anymore,

but I knew it was a hostile environment.

As Bess tried to get domestic partner

benefits for the county workers.

And we started to go to Monroe County legislature

to speak every month.

For the very first time, I realized

there is a skill to this.

All right.

We had spoken a couple of times.

And Harry Branson, who was--

BESS WATTS: The county legislator at the time.

ANNE TISCHER: The county legislator.

Harry Branson sent us a message that perhaps if you girls are

serious about making change, perhaps you

could stand some mentoring.

BESS WATTS: And Anne set up a meeting to meet with him.

ANNE TISCHER: With him.

Through him, we had Tom Privitere.

up here in our life, who is an organizer for--

a statewide organizer for--

BESS WATTS: Public Employees Federation.

He's actually a-- he's not really an organizer.

But he administers the contracts and negotiates the contracts.

ANNE TISCHER: So we started lobbying and learning

because genuinely, when we went to the county

legislature, my attitude, my thought

was that it was just an oversight.

That if they've done it for MCC, the college, well

all we had to do was make them aware of this problem

and of course they would extend it to all the employees.

BESS WATTS: It's important to note that at one time

MCC's contract was tied in with Monroe County.

And it was I think early 2005 that actually, MCC fragmented

from the county.

So while we got domestic partner benefits at MCC,

I felt that we were jumping the ship on Monroe county unit,

that we had once been a part of.

So it was through that, my naivete,

that we said, well let's go to the county.

It's an oversight.

We'll just ask them at the county legislator.

I mean it's kind of really funny if you think back, because--

EVELYN BAILEY: Somewhat naive.

BESS WATTS: Oh yes.

Oh we were totally naive.

They'll do it.

It's the right thing.

ANNE TISCHER: And, Evelyn, we would

go talk one on one with the Republican, or the Democrats

too, but the Republicans.

They would agree with us, that yes, there should

be domestic partner benefits.

Some of them owned companies and their own companies had it.

Wayne Zira had approved Basses' domestic and he at the time

was president of the county legislature.

And ultimately, it was a resounding no.

They don't have it today.

BESS WATTS: --But which the reality is political ideology

influences the benefits that employees get.

I mean it's really a sad.

Factor.

I mean, because it's certainly dominantly Republican

and they're not going to negotiate domestic partner

benefits.

And they think of it as a gay benefit, when the reality,

we know, that heterosexuals overwhelmingly take advantage

with domestic partner benefits, more so than gay couples.

But it was really telling, and I think a life lesson for me,

how much political influence dictates

how they treat their employees.

I mean, that's my opinion.

EVELYN BAILEY: So as many people as

you spoke to in the county legislature

who were supportive, they would not cast a vote for--

BESS WATTS: No.

Well, they actually were playing as both sides.

They said, well you need to get this through negotiations.

By this time, the contract wasn't up until 2010.

I don't-- But they kept on.

And then you would go to--

And they said, no this can be a resolution at the county.

So they really were playing this--

they were playing both--

ANNE TISCHER: Yes.

We were being led around by the nose.

And as this happened, every time they said no or we felt used,

we ramped up our education.

We sought out new mentors.

We brought more people in to speak.

We started doing more education.

BESS WATTS: We sent a letter to Maggie Brooks,

asking her specifically.

And we got a response that it would have

to be part of negotiations.

We knew then that it was not.

So then our focus turned on.

just really educating the community, and particularly

labor on that end.

ANNE TISCHER: And then likewise, at the same time,

we were seriously involved in social justice ministry,

LGBT stuff using the church.

OK.

But at that time, even when we were talking at the county

legislature, when it became apparent that DP benefits would

not happen, we alternate;y were talking about other rights.

But in particular marriage, because that

was before the first failed marriage vote.

And so we were already cranking up with the church.

BESS WATTS: And the Pride agenda.

ANNE TISCHER: Oh yes.

Todd Plank.

He was another person that fell from the sky into our lives.

And he came to our church, collecting petitions,

doing some education early on.

That would be possibly the late nineties--

and so he gave us direction and we worked with him a lot.

And sometimes when he couldn't do something

that needed a response, for instance, when we started

doing the tax day rallies, because Pride agenda

wouldn't want that.

So we would do it under the church's social action

for marriage equality.

BESS WATTS: And if we couldn't do it under the church,

that's where we created SAME, which is the Social

Action for Marriage Equality.

And it's funny how things evolve.

EVELYN BAILEY: Let me stop you for just a minute,

and ask you--

tell me about your first impressions and interactions

with Harry Branson.

BESS WATTS: Well first of all, can I--

when we got the phone call, Anne and I--

isn't it funny?

We got this from his receptionist.

Legislator Harry Branson would like to meet you.

And we're like, Harry Branson.

Oh my God.

ANNE TISCHER: Yes.

We were intimidated.

OK.

BESS WATTS: We were intimidated.

ANNE TISCHER: Because he was a muckety muck to us.

BESS WATTS: And it's so funny how it was like--

when we met with him, what was our impression?

He was always nice.

ANNE TISCHER: Professional.

Well he's an attorney.

BESS WATTS: He's an attorney.

ANNE TISCHER: He looked and sounded like an attorney.

EVELYN BAILEY: Why did he call you?

BESS WATTS: I think it's because we spoke--

when you show up once, it's a fluke.

When you show up twice, oh well they're maybe serious.

When your third, time these people are serious

and we're looking for people.

And I think that he saw some potential

in what we were trying to do.

And he wanted to help us.

I mean he believed in what we were trying to do.

ANNE TISCHER: We also--

we had a fairly balanced-- we knew enough to be respectful.

We weren't crack pots when we went there.

And that made a big difference.

I think.

BESS WATTS: We capped at two minutes.

I mean we know exactly what it takes (laughing) two minutes.

And we were-- Yeah.

I agree.

EVELYN BAILEY: And was he helpful?

BESS WATTS: Yes.

Well he introduced us to Tom Privitere.

And Ove Overmeyer.

I mean you--

EVELYN BAILEY: And tell me about Tom and tell me about Ove.

BESS WATTS: Well, Tom--

well, first of all I met with--

Tom is like telling a story.

It was like sit down for two hours.

But the guy was just--

I've never met anyone like Tom, who

just treats everyone the same.

And he is so gracious and kind.

And I just have a deep love and affection for him.

EVELYN BAILEY: Talk to me about his heart.

BESS WATTS: His heart.

Anne and I went to Washington DC with Tom.

And I'm like, oh, you know any time you're

going on a free trip, this is like oh, a third person.

It was the most delightful time.

He is a Buddha.

He's just so calm, influence.

He's great at telling stories.

He's empathetic.

He makes you see things.

You can be bragging on something.

And he'll go, perhaps--

he'll explain it in a different way.

And you're like, you know you're right, Tom.

He just has a great demeanor and--

ANNE TISCHER: Wisdom.

BESS WATTS: Wisdom.

Ove wind him up and watch him--

ANNE TISCHER: Watch him go.

BESS WATTS: Ove is one of--

as a president now.

He's one of my vice presidents.

And I chose him because we needed someone

in communications for labor.

I felt that was one of your weak areas,

of communicating to members.

And I say to Ove, Ove, do you ever

talk in conversational tones?

He goes, no! (laughs) But when I talk with Ove,

Ove doesn't wake up and live one day.

His purpose is to make the world a better place.

And one could ever question his passion, his care,

and his dedication to making the world a better place.

ANNE TISCHER: And all of these mentors that came in our life

fill different niches.

For instance, if we needed to know political insight stuff

to do analysis, there's Ove.

OK.

If you want to find out how to handle a certain person,

if you're lobbying, there's Tom.

OK.

Who talks from the heart.

OK.

BESS WATTS: Or who also has worked in labor in the city

of Rochester since 1970's.

And he knows everybody and he knows

where the bodies are buried.

And he won't tell you where they're buried.

And when I came for the press conference

that we have for marriage equality.

It was because of Tom working with these labor leaders,

that every labor leader showed up for this press conference,

including the fire department and the Locust Club--

ANNE TISCHER: And the police.

BESS WATTS: --Mike Mazzeo.

I mean that's unheard of for such a social issue, that

could be potentially hurt their re-election chances.

But it didn't.

I mean--

ANNE TISCHER: That was the straw though.

The labor push here with Senator Alesi, was in fact

the thing that flipped it.

And it didn't happen anywhere else across the state.

And it was unbelievable that they turned out.

They actively called, wrote, appeared, actively

lobbied for marriage.

BESS WATTS: And that wouldn't have

happened if we hadn't established a Pride at Work

chapter here in Rochester.

EVELYN BAILEY: OK.

So now let's go back to--

you have domestic partnership benefits at--

BESS WATTS: MCC.

EVELYN BAILEY: MCC.

And you were living your life.

What catapulted you into the next battle on the front?

ANNE TISCHER: Marriage Ambassador Training

with Nora Yates and Todd Plank.

The momentum for marriage equality was there.

And we had been continually building,

in terms of doing educational things, because we

were part of the Gay Alliance Speakers Bureau.

We did the gay history fair events.

So we were doing visibility and education, things.

But the thing that took us out of our comfort zone

was Marriage Ambassador Training,

because now we were going to be lobbying,

and in a serious mode.

BESS WATTS: But it's also more than that.

We learned what we didn't know.

I mean you don't know-- you don't think

about all those protections and benefits, and your place

in society, until you get that training.

I mean even with domestic partner benefits,

I was stunned when I found out the taxes I had to pay

on having her on my insurance.

I mean it was just--

it was like getting kicked in the gut when

I got my first paycheck.

They said it was taxed, but holy cow is it taxed.

But taking the Marriage Ambassador

Training, it really--

we're a family.

Our place in society--

we just took the ball and ran with it.

Because we had no choice.

ANNE TISCHER: It was consciousness raising for us,

much like I had experienced with the feminist movement.

And it never occurred to me that LGBT people

have to have consciousness raising

to be able to feel their own oppression.

And from that time, we changed our approach.

OK.

Because now we realized not only did

we have to educate the politicians,

we had to educate our own people.

So that was a big--

BESS WATTS: If they want to be educated.

EVELYN BAILEY: But it seems to me

you were challenged at one point,

to put your bodies where your voices were.

ANNE TISCHER: Well it's been continual.

It's every time you take one step up to another plateau,

you're going to run into another obstacle.

EVELYN BAILEY: So what obstacle did Jim Mulcahy present to you?

BESS WATTS: Oh yeah, the marriage.

(interposing voices)

ANNE TISCHER: Totally forgot that.

Yeah.

BESS WATTS: It's so funny because they

were looking for a couple.

And Anne Anne I, we love each other.

I mean we're-- on my gravestone, I'm going to have it pointed

at her.

Attila my Hun.

I think that's what we decided.

We had no idea what that day would be like.

EVELYN BAILEY: How did it come about?

BESS WATTS: It came about because the denomination,

Metropolitan Community Churches was having a day of action

to highlight the marriage equality.

And they were asking for local churches

to do something to highlight that.

And so Jim wanted to have a wedding in Washington Square

Park.

ANNE TISCHER: With-- there were a dozen other clergy involved

largely through interfaith advocates or--

BESS WATTS: Who were some of those clergy?

It was Denise Denato.

ANNE TISCHER: Rabbi Kats.

BESS WATTS: Rabbi Kats.

ANNE TISCHER: Will Seals.

BESS WATTS: Will Seals.

Oh that's right.

is I have pictures of them.

I mean people that we didn't know.

But it was so touching.

And go ahead.

ANNE TISCHER: So we actually were not the first choice.

Jim had asked someone else who turned him.

Down and he knew that we'd been together several years.

And that we were already expressing

that we wanted to get married because otherwise he would not

have married anyone just for a political statement.

OK.

BESS WATTS: It was a serious wedding.

I mean we were--

ANNE TISCHER: As, far as he was concerned that

was marriage in the church.

And so he knew that he wouldn't be doing civil disobedience

and could be arrested for it.

He asked us and, of course, we said, oh certainly.

We would do anything for Jim and to advance

the cause by this point.

We went down the day before.

We were the first couple in Rochester

to ask for and be refused a marriage license.

And Carol Lee Cochlan was the clerk at the time.

BESS WATTS: And Deputy Dan, who is now the city clerk.

ANNE TISCHER: She took us--

and it was so funny.

The people at the desk were all nervous and jerky.

All right.

And we, of course, were terrified.

OK.

We didn't know what was going to happen.

BESS WATTS: Yeah.

The clerk said, you mean you want to marriage

for both, each other.

And she goes to the desk, and talks to the lady at the desk.

And they look at us.

And then she picks up the phone.

ANNE TISCHER: And out comes Carol Lee and Dan.

BESS WATTS: She said, We've been waiting for you.

ANNE TISCHER: Yeah.

So they took us into a site room.

She had a folder--

BESS WATTS: No.

They took us up to the conference room

on the third floor.

Not to correct your story, honey, but --

ANNE TISCHER: And she had a folder

of court cases, information, anything

to do with marriage equality.

And she said-- she handed it to us

and she said, find a way to sue us.

Find a way to sue me personally.

BESS WATTS: She said she would be arrested.

Or she could not legally give us a license.

And it was probably the politest refusal

that we could have ever asked for.

ANNE TISCHER: Do you want to talk about empowering?

To have done that and found unexpected support

on that level.

BESS WATTS: Yes.

People expect people to be unreasonable.

And they could not have been kinder.

And it's important to note also that about three weeks prior

to that, we were interviewed by Jim McDermott from the DNC

about marriage equality.

And he rode-- came to the house.

And then Annette Lynn came and took pictures.

That night after we were refused, I called Jim.

And I said, Hey Jim, we were applied for and refused.

And then they scheduled the wedding.

And on that morning of the webinar,

our picture appeared in the DNC above the fold.

ANNE TISCHER: Follow the story.

BESS WATTS: Gay couple to be wed.

I can't remember the headline.

EVELYN BAILEY: Was that the interview he did?

BESS WATTS: Yes.

Three weeks prior.

EVELYN BAILEY: Three weeks prior.

OK.

I have a copy of that.

BESS WATTS: Oh.

Do you really?

EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.

ANNE TISCHER: Did you notice the little cross cookies that we

were both -- (laughter)

EVELYN BAILEY: Yes I did.

ANNE TISCHER: To the nth degree, they will be.

BESS WATTS: Well it was not--

We made it.

I mean we're a family.

We're normal.

I mean we were trying to project--

And that Liam did a fabulous job.

But the timing and everything--

So on the day of the wedding, I mean

we did not expect the media to just be so in force.

I mean every news station--

and also channel-- which channel?

Eight or ten?

That came to the house that morning?

ANNE TISCHER: Interesting things happened.

We were pushed into being in heterosexual roles.

Even in the coverage, they noted that I carried a bouquet

and she had on a boutonniere.

But when they came to the house, the reporter

was trying to steer the operation into,

what are you wearing that's borrowed and blue.

So it was--

BESS WATTS: And we had our friend Carol there, who says,

this is your wedding.

It's not what they want you to be.

We said, you know what, We don't have anything borrowed, blue,

something new.

That is not who we are.

So we scratched that from the interview.

ANNE TISCHER: But it was really obvious that they were--

EVELYN BAILEY: They wanted--

BESS WATTS: To put us in--

EVELYN BAILEY: The box to be--

ANNE TISCHER: Yeah.

Who's was the man?

Who's the female?

And many of the questions were, well who takes out the garbage?

Or things like that.

You know what I mean.

BESS WATTS: But assume good will.

People don't know.

And that's why it's so important to be

out and visible to give people the permission

to ask those stupid questions.