Audio Interview, Betty Dwyer, July 19, 2012
- EVELYN BAILEY: But then he became
- involved when the CETA funding came about,
- or the grant was written and that whole thing.
- I don't know how much of that you remember
- in terms of what it was like to get that out
- of the hands of the Community Chest
- into the City Council Baileywick.
- And then Bill Johnson's taking that whole federal funding
- over.
- But you were present at City Hall chambers
- when that was brought to the floor.
- BETTY DWYER: Yeah.
- I wasn't actually present at City Hall chambers
- when the United Way brought it to the floor.
- I was unemployed at the time.
- I had left ABC actually for a better community
- where I'd worked for ten years and had gone trucking off.
- Then I was back in town.
- And I came back to town over the summer,
- would have been about '77.
- And so, when I started to look for a job,
- there was one advertised--
- I think just advertised in the newspaper.
- And I don't even think it gave any detail about what it was.
- But anyway, I applied.
- And I was interviewed by this gentleman who had already
- been hired by the United Way to manage this CETA grant, which
- the city of Rochester was getting about one
- million dollars in funds from the federal government
- through what-- it was called the Concentrated Employment
- and Training Act, which was CETA.
- And one of the things that they were able to do with it
- was public service employment, hiring people
- to perform jobs in nonprofit organizations that
- would provide public service.
- So City Council must have gone through a process beforehand
- to decide that they were going to use one million dollars
- for that purpose.
- Because there were all different kinds of training programs
- that could be financed under the act, I'm sure.
- So anyway, because they wanted to provide these public service
- employees to a number of different nonprofits
- throughout the community, the city
- didn't want to have to administer
- all these small contracts and grants.
- So they chose the United Way, as this kind
- of umbrella funding organization for nonprofits, to manage it.
- And so the deal was that applications
- were submitted to the United Way for them to review and select,
- which was--
- one million dollars was enough money
- to finance about one hundred jobs.
- Ten thousand dollars was like a maximum to be paid.
- So I believe they had already structured
- the thing for different types of jobs from research assistants
- to clerical secretarial to I don't know--
- a variety.
- So all these different nonprofits
- were submitting applications to get people.
- So anyway, I was interviewed by this gentleman, who
- had been hired by the United Way to manage the project, to serve
- as his assistant because I was very
- familiar with the community, and very familiar with nonprofits,
- and had worked in the neighborhoods for years,
- for about ten years before I left ABC.
- So he interviewed me, offered me the job,
- and said, "OK, we're submitting the details of the contract."
- Because the city held the right to review the final contract,
- which included all of the different organizations
- that were going to get jobs assigned to them.
- So they wanted to see that before the final contract was
- signed for the United Way.
- So that's when all hell broke loose.
- Because when the United Way sent it to the city,
- they included-- among the agencies and organizations
- that they had selected, they had included
- the Gay Alliance to be able to have three people allocated
- to them.
- I never discussed in enough detail with the man
- exactly how they were going to manage the contract,
- whether they were all going to be employees of the United Way
- and just sent out to these agencies
- or how they were going to actually structure this thing.
- So of course, I was kind of--
- they were supposed to go to City Council
- what on a Tuesday or Thursday, whatever day the City
- Council was meeting.
- And then I was supposed to start working the next Monday.
- So I was a little alert as to what was going on with it,
- but I didn't actually go to City Council.
- But I did see on the news that all hell had broken loose
- at City Council with raving born-agains in there.
- So I thought the next morning, well,
- this is kind of interesting.
- I think I'll take a little trip down to the United Way
- to see how they're responding to this.
- So I did.
- I drove down to their offices and walked in-- and just
- in time to catch the announcement at a news
- conference by--
- I forget the name of the woman who was the assistant.
- She was president (unintelligible)
- of the United Way--
- EVELYN BAILEY: The chair of the United Way?
- BETTY DWYER: No, she wasn't the chair.
- She was an administrative position,
- but she wasn't the head.
- She was his assistant.
- She was an African-American woman.
- I can't remember her name.
- But she was holding court in announcing to the world
- that the United Way would not be managing this project.
- It would not be pursuing the contract
- with the city of Rochester.
- I don't know how delicately she put the whole thing.
- But bottom line, it was we can't afford
- to be involved in such a controversial issue.
- And they were getting zillions of phone calls
- about who was going to withdraw their support from the United
- Way.
- And they couldn't afford it.
- They couldn't afford to do it.
- And in fact, they were not a politically controversial
- institution.
- So it was dropped like a hot potato.
- That was the end of that.
- That was the end of my job.
- That was the end of that guy's job they had hired.
- And so of course, I started to think,
- as the dust started to settle, that this might
- be an interesting thing to do.
- So as I watched the newspapers, the Urban League
- started to talk about it.
- They started to talk about the Urban League,
- talking to the city about being willing to take
- on this contract.
- And I decided, well I know the Urban League.
- I had been on the board of directors of the Urban League.
- I had been there when Bill Johnson was hired.
- I had been a board member of the League, actually,
- so I knew Jeff Carlson.
- I knew them, and they knew me a little--
- not well, but--
- So I just dropped a line to Bill Johnson
- and said, well, I'm in town.
- I'm back.
- I'm available.
- I'm looking for some employment.
- And so as it all turned out, of course,
- the city decided to go that way.
- But when I was interviewed for the job,
- actually by Jeff Carlson, not by Bill, I said to him,
- "If there's been any deals made here about the Gay Alliance,
- I won't have anything to do with it."
- "No, no," he said, "No.
- We're in charge.
- They said it would be totally our responsibility
- to devise the methodology to evaluate and select
- the organizations."
- What the United Way did was out the window.
- That was now irrelevant.
- And if the Urban League took the contract,
- the Urban League would have to establish a fair and equitable
- way to assess applications and determine who would--
- and we would then also still have
- to bring the package back to the city
- and have them approve the contract.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Do you remember who was the mayor at the time?
- BETTY DWYER: Tom Ryan.
- Tom Ryan was the mayor.
- EVELYN BAILEY: OK.
- BETTY DWYER: Tom Ryan was the mayor.
- I'm quite sure still at that time
- Ruth Scott was still on Council.
- The big Schiano was of course the dramatic Republican rally
- around Schiano.
- But he was the only Republican, I believe, on City Council
- at the time.
- But there was a Democrat--
- old, Italian, good friend of the mayor, but quite conservative,
- and so he was--
- In terms of City Council, City Council
- was really, really generally--
- except they're the only two that I thought were real problems.
- And the other guy, who I can't think of his name right now,
- he wasn't a very prominent politician in town
- and I don't think prominent member of City Council.
- He was kind of a--
- EVELYN BAILEY: It was Schiano's name
- that got really projected into the media as the--
- BETTY DWYER: That he was the--
- EVELYN BAILEY: The spokesperson for the "opposition," quote
- unquote.
- BETTY DWYER: Yeah.
- He was.
- He absolutely was.
- No, He totally was.
- So yeah, we went through--
- I discussed with them what my attitude
- was about what the criteria would
- be for reviewing and selecting.
- And, of course, we had to be super careful.
- So we devised this method of reviewing the applications,
- which--
- well, it was advantageous to the Alliance,
- but it was advantageous to really all community-based,
- smaller community organizations, which is where I really came
- out of that whole movement.
- As the director of a neighborhood center
- on Union Street, that was my belief,
- that you needed to be grassroots,
- close to the community.
- And that made it particularly advantageous,
- of course, for the Alliance too because it was a grassroots
- organization.
- So I ended up feeling that I was in a pretty key position
- to be able to manage this thing.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Let me just back up a little bit.
- From your point of view or your sense of it,
- why do you think the Urban League chose to take this on?
- BETTY DWYER: Because Bill Johnson
- was smart enough to know that this was an opportunity.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: An opportunity of what--
- BETTY DWYER: This was an opportunity
- to get a major grant and contract
- from the city of Rochester.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: And of course administrative fees
- that would be--
- BETTY DWYER: One million dollars in 19--
- they didn't make a lot of money off it, I don't think, really.
- But one million dollars in 19--
- I mean, one million dollars today,
- people look at you like you're out of your mind.
- And it was one million dollars, and it was one hundred jobs--
- I mean, one hundred jobs.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: One jobs that came under the umbrella
- of the Urban League?
- BETTY DWYER: The way it was structured--
- again, I was in a pretty key position to structure
- how this was going to be done and administered.
- And I had been a manager, a director of a neighborhood
- center.
- So I had strong attitudes about these things.
- And I thought it would just be a horror
- to have one hundred Urban League employees scattered
- to thirty different agencies and organizations
- and try and be responsible for managing them, timecards
- and all.
- I had done enough summer youth programs and all that kind
- of stuff that I knew that it would
- be an administrative management nightmare.
- So I said what we'll do is enter contracts
- with all these organizations.
- They became employees of those organizations,
- so that we did not have the direct day-to-day--
- we didn't have to be fiscally responsible for a hundred
- timecards all over creation.
- So that's the way we did it.
- We did actual contracts.
- But then we had our own staff that did supportive services
- because the point of the whole thing, of course,
- was to get people employed to move into permanent employment,
- which I took very seriously.
- And we took it seriously.
- So we had people to serve, to do workshops
- and training for employment and interviewing
- and all that kind of stuff.
- So we created a whole variety of--
- I had a staff of three program monitors.
- I also wanted to provide support to the organizations,
- many of which were small and didn't
- have a lot of good systems or management in place,
- to be able to be supportive to them,
- to be successful in being able to use the people.
- You know?
- Because people will say, "Oh, I need ten people.
- Send me ten people."
- They don't know what the hell to do with two, one.
- So I was really interested in trying to offer that kind
- of additional support to community-based organizations
- to strengthen their management systems and their ability to be
- able to manage people and money--
- as well as the employees, the participants themselves,
- to get good job experiences to be
- able to move into permanent employment.
- And in doing that, and it was understood
- and we made it clear to all the organizations, hey,
- don't count on these people for twelve months.
- Because if we can help them get out
- and get a solid job that's going to give them
- some stability in lesser time, they will go.
- And you will just have to get a deal with another person, which
- isn't the easiest thing either for an organization.
- But that was the deal.
- You're getting free labor.
- But for the participants, we're really
- trying to help them in their seeking permanent employment
- and advancing whatever careers or interests they have.
- For you, we're interested in helping you
- with your organization in any way that we can
- and giving you a track record, too,
- of managing a contract successfully
- and that kind of thing.
- So we had program managers--
- program monitors is what they were called, I think.
- So I think we had three of them because we
- had thirty-three organizations.
- So we divided up the organizations,
- and Clair was the manager.
- I hired Clair Parker, who was the monitor for the Gay
- Alliance.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Now go back.
- You had just talked to City Council about the strings
- attached to the Urban League.
- BETTY DWYER: No, not to the City Council, to the Urban League.
- The Urban League was hiring me.
- Jeff Carlson was then deputy director of the Urban
- League under Bill Johnson.
- And so he was the one that interviewed me for the job.
- Bill never talked to me about the job at all.
- I think he probably did that very deliberately.
- He didn't want to be accused.
- Everybody was walking very gingerly on this whole thing.
- So he never even talked to me.
- But Jeff did.
- But like I said, I made it clear to Jeff
- if any deals have gone down when you've assured City Council--
- don't worry about it.
- If we get the contract, we'll figure out
- how to keep the political heat off of you.
- And he assured me that no, that they hadn't.
- And that it was in our hands.
- And that it would be in my hands essentially,
- that they would not dictate to me how
- the monitoring of the applications would be set up.
- I have tremendous admiration for Bill.
- I have a lot of respect for him to begin with, but particularly
- in that area.
- He stood right back away.
- He did not interfere in any way with the whole process.
- There was nothing about Urban manipulating--
- I was the only manipulator in the operation.
- And nobody knew I was gay.
- EVELYN BAILEY: So talk a little bit about the process that you
- used because you then had to re-evaluate every single
- contract that--
- BETTY DWYER: I can't remember how many applications there
- were.
- There might have been as many as one hundred.
- I can't-- no, it couldn't have been that many.
- But there were a lot.
- There were more than could be funded.
- So I created this criteria to rank
- the proposals, a whole bunch of different questions.
- God knows.
- But like I said, the basic philosophy
- was tilted towards small, nonprofit, community-based
- organizations-- not the hospitals, not the whoever
- else, which I can't even remember
- who went to the United Way.
- But I tilted the thing in favor of that type of organization.
- So they got extra points for community involvement
- and for blah, blah, blah.
- I can't remember.
- But anyway, I created this thing, and it had points.
- Then we put a team of reviewers together from staff
- within the Urban League.
- I can't remember how many people,
- but there would have been at least four people.
- Four or five people.
- To be perfectly honest, I'm really not sure
- if I was a reviewer or not.
- I might have decided it was better for me not to be,
- but then I might not have.
- I can't remember.
- But I do remember very clearly there were two
- reviewers for each proposal.
- So no single person was the ultimate decider
- on the rankings.
- And so, I don't remember another single application,
- but I remember clearly the Gay Alliance.
- There were two reviewers.
- Maybe there were two reviewers and if there
- was a big enough spread between the two reviewers' ranking,
- then a third person had to look at it.
- And then it was reconciled with the two closest or something.
- So the Gay Alliance proposal came
- in reviewed out of a score of one hundred, forty-something.
- I would almost say I could remember forty-three,
- but I wouldn't swear to that.
- But I knew it was in the forties which
- was a very low score actually.
- And the other one was in the nineties.
- So there was clearly a large enough spread
- for a third reviewer.
- And to tell you the truth, I can't remember
- whether I got to do that one.
- If I didn't, I probably was in a good enough position
- to feel confident about who did it.
- EVELYN BAILEY: I think you did do it.
- BETTY DWYER: I think I might have.
- EVELYN BAILEY: That's what you said--
- BETTY DWYER: I might have held myself out of the first round
- and then participated in the final.
- Did I say that before?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- BETTY DWYER: Yeah.
- Well, I don't remember that clearly right now.
- But I do remember that--
- because I remember the guy.
- The guy-- I mean, history is history, right?
- And we're fifty or sixty years away, and Jeff Carlson is dead,
- so what difference does it make?
- But my suspicion was that Jeff wanted
- to get this political hot potato off of their back.
- And he told Dave Worsham, who was the grant
- writer for the Urban League, and he was a white guy,
- and he was the reader that gave it a forty-three, that he
- had been given the word.
- I would not at all think from Bill,
- but very possibly, very credibly in my mind, from Jeff
- to trash this one and get this off our backs.
- But the process had been put together in a way--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: (unintelligible)
- BETTY DWYER: That effectively thwarted that.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
- BETTY DWYER: I've never told anybody that before
- about my suspicions about Jeff.
- But Jeff would have, I can imagine.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Well, who else was there?
- BETTY DWYER: I mean Bill, but Bill clearly
- was keeping himself away.
- So that took care of that issue because there was no question
- to be raised by anybody.
- So that got-- and then the community
- was kind of so exhausted over the whole deal
- before that that it was kind of anticlimactic that year then
- for the final contract to be approved by the city
- and for the thing to go forward.
- And of course the press did stuff and all that,
- but we went forward.
- But of course, it was under my clear understanding.
- I've been involved in ABC, so that was politics.
- That was advocacy.
- That was all the principles of this kind of stuff.
- So I was as paranoid and super sensitive
- as anybody in the town about those kinds of issues.
- So then the challenge became, how do we keep this going?
- EVELYN BAILEY: And correct me if I'm wrong.
- I recall your saying that when you presented this
- to City Council finally, Bill Johnson had worked out
- it was all or nothing.
- You weren't going to take each of these contracts
- and vote on them separately.
- BETTY DWYER: Yes.
- Absolutely.
- I'm sure that was from the get-go.
- It was a package.
- EVELYN BAILEY: It was the package or--
- BETTY DWYER: Yeah.
- Because he wouldn't have tolerated
- that kind of interference and micromanagement by--
- I'm sure that he negotiated that right from the get-go
- with the city.
- We'll do it, but it's ours to do then.
- And you don't get involved in the details of it.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Do you recall how much the grant was for?
- BETTY DWYER: It was around one million dollars.
- It might have been--
- EVELYN BAILEY: But I mean the Gay Alliance grant or project.
- BETTY DWYER: The Gay Alliance.
- Well, there were three employees.
- It was probably thirty-five thousand dollars
- or something like that.
- They had-- ten thousand dollars, like I said, was the most.
- And it was really for employees.
- I think we-- yeah, we did--
- we gave some money probably.
- There would have been maybe some for supplies and mimeograph
- stuff.
- The first year, that was that year.
- It was the next year that was the real deal when
- we had to go back for the second contract.
- That's when we were--
- I have never in my life ever been put under the gun
- quite as intensely as when we went the second round
- because they were--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Under the gun from the City Council
- or from the community?
- BETTY DWYER: No, from Council.
- We didn't give a damn about the people who were raving maniacs.
- But Schiano and troops and having
- to go before committees because Schiano took advantage of that
- as a real killer.
- But so really what I did--
- like I said, the whole philosophy
- was to move people into employment.
- But a secondary advantage to that, of course,
- was if after twelve months you have people
- that have worked for you for less than twelve months
- and have been so cooperative and helpful about moving them
- into other employment, certainly we
- aren't going to stop your contract
- and make you fire people who've only
- been working for a few months.
- That doesn't make sense.
- Right?
- So of course the Gay Alliance had
- employees who had come on after the twelve months.
- But instituting that policy and approach, first of all,
- in effect guaranteed continuation of the contract.
- So luckily, philosophically everything
- all fell nicely into place.
- But it was pretty--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So in the second go-around--
- BETTY DWYER: It was a twelve-month contract.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Right.
- But the second go-around with City Council and Schiano
- and all his doings, did it really
- even matter because you already had some sort of mechanism
- in place?
- BETTY DWYER: Well, they could have not renewed the contract.
- They could have not renewed the contract.
- And in order to get the contract approved--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: The entire contract?
- EVELYN BAILEY: With the Urban League?
- BETTY DWYER: The entire contract, yeah.
- Which was unlikely, but they can put you
- through hell in the meantime.
- And what was really interesting about that--
- I tried to make sure, of course, that I had
- every base possible covered.
- We had evaluations.
- And the money, we watched like hawks.
- And I just do that as a manager anyway.
- You don't screw around with money,
- and you do what you're supposed to do.
- And so we had probably had maybe one hundred
- and thirty people go through that first twelve months.
- We had moved people out and turned them over--
- not just at the Alliance, but it was the same philosophy
- all the way around.
- So things had gone very well.
- And I had it very well documented,
- and I had everything documented.
- And I had evaluations up the kazoo
- from participants, and agencies, and all the rest of it.
- So like I said, I got this policy agreed to
- within the Urban League.
- This makes sense that we aren't going to bounce agencies
- out that have been helpful, and helped the workers,
- and have helped us get to our goals of getting people
- into employment and everything.
- But you still had to go through the whole nine yards.
- And, of course, Schiano wanted to see everything--
- every piece of paper that ever existed.
- And their big thing in the beginning
- was that we were not promoting and propagating
- this terrible lifestyle of homosexuality.
- And so the big issue was the Empty Closet,
- which really was just a mimeographed sheet
- at that point.
- Because this was the great tool to convert
- the world to homosexuality.
- So, of course, Schiano is on to this
- and the propagation of homosexuality
- and what was done with the money.
- So we went--
- Bill and I both had to appear in front of the Council committee
- that was doing this, which was for some reason I
- think the personnel committee or something.
- It was crazy.
- Anyway, Schiano was on it, but Ruth Scott chaired it.
- Or she might have chaired Council at the time maybe
- as well as the committee.
- She was chairing the committee.
- And they had an open committee meeting,
- so all the crazies came to that.
- Macaluso primarily was one of the more vociferous crazies
- of the day.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Was that typical to have an open committee
- meeting?
- BETTY DWYER: An open committee meeting?
- I don't think so.
- I don't think it's that--
- it might not be, but he might have pushed that.
- And they did have it.
- And Bill appeared with me.
- The two of us appeared together at the committee meeting.
- And I'm sure I've told you this before that it was really
- a moment of enlightenment, I think, for Bill Johnson.
- Because Macaluso got up and was talking
- to the committee, but particularly Ruth Scott
- was right in front of him.
- And he made one of his typical, unbelievably ignorant
- statements, talking about immorality.
- And he referred to prostitution or something
- and kind of looked at Ruth Scott and made some kind of comment
- like, "She would really understand that."
- It was stunning.
- It was stunning how he--
- her face.
- She was stunned.
- Johnson's sitting next to me, and I
- could feel the light bulb go on in his head.
- I could literally feel it go on in Bill Johnson's head
- that it's the same thing.
- It's the same thing all over.
- That's what this man's talking about.
- It was amazing.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Who is this Macaluso person?
- BETTY DWYER: What was his--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Michael Macaluso?
- BETTY DWYER: Michael.
- Oh he was a--
- EVELYN BAILEY: He now is principal of the Guardian
- Angels School up on Ridge Road.
- BETTY DWYER: Is he still alive?
- No joke.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And they have about one hundred or one
- hundred and ten students, and they wear uniforms.
- And they say the rosary at the beginning of the day.
- And it is a religious, fanatical process.
- BETTY DWYER: God, I thought he would have died.
- EVELYN BAILEY: But you would not have
- believed the outrageous, vehement, violent, abusive
- statements that would come out of his mouth
- and other people's mouths who were spokespersons
- for the Moral Majority.
- BETTY DWYER: Yes.
- And they were very strong.
- Who was the guy who was the big--
- he was the Catholic arm and the Moral Majority.
- The Baptist guy, who has he?
- God, I can't think of his name now.
- But he was very outspoken and prominent
- and had a pretty good-sized congregation at the time.
- And what I did experience-- because I didn't experience
- the first time at City Council.
- But see the second go-around, we had this committee meeting,
- and at which then, of course, Schiano
- made this big thing about wanting to see
- where the money was spent.
- So I said to him, "OK.
- You want to see where the money's been spent, buddy?
- You're going to see it."
- We went back to the office.
- I said to the staff, "We are duplicating
- every invoice that's come in from everybody
- for the whole year.
- And every member of City Council is getting a copy
- at City Council meeting."
- So the committee takes this to City Council meeting.
- And that's when all of the crazies
- totally fill City Council's chambers.
- I mean, sick people with their kids sitting next
- to them, saying stuff, just unbelievable,
- just unbelievable.
- I mean, it was the one experience in my life
- where I've ever been in the middle of that kind of hatred
- that was just unimaginable in the name of Christianity.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Were you afraid?
- BETTY DWYER: I was just nervous as hell.
- I really was stressed.
- I have to say between that committee meeting and the City
- Council meeting, I was pushed to the edge.
- I was really stressed out because you just didn't know.
- These people were crazy.
- And you just thought, man, any kind of--
- You've got one hundred and thirty
- people that have been out there all over creation.
- You can't keep track of every little thing that goes on
- and every little stuff.
- You don't know what in the world is liable to just blow.
- And the media's going crazy.
- And I'm getting telephone calls where they're literally just
- trying to trap you.
- I was getting calls from the DNC and this reporter who
- would throw stuff--
- I just was trying--
- leading questions, they'll kill you.
- They'll get you to say anything, and then it's
- headlines the next morning.
- This guy wanted a story so bad.
- He wanted to blow some junk out of--
- I just stayed as calm and cool as I could and just frustrated
- the hell out of him.
- And they never got it.
- Nothing ever really dropped.
- But you didn't really know what was liable to drop.
- And I really felt totally responsible.
- And I was not an out gay person.
- I had never had anything to do with the Gay Alliance.
- I had never had anything to do with a gay organization.
- I had not done anything.
- And on a personal level, I was a little freaked too,
- although Clair really got freaked, I have to say.
- Clair got really--
- Clair was out and had been with the organization and everything
- else.
- When we came back to say we've got
- to get these things together, I said
- we're going down to the Alliance.
- I'll tear the place apart.
- Don't keep anything from me because if there's a surprise,
- somebody is going to go down here because there's
- too much on the line.
- I remember literally charging into the Gay Alliance offices.
- And I think Pat Collins was there
- like, "Who the hell is she?
- And what does she think she's doing?"
- I said, "Look, lady, don't give me any grief.
- We need this shit together.
- And so show me whatever there is."
- But anyway, we put literally a stack of duplicated invoices--
- everything from a cup of coffee to a--
- this high and gave them to every member of City Council
- at City Council chambers the night of the vote.
- And Schiano's there.
- He's going through all this shit,
- trying to dig out something.
- "The newspaper, the newspaper.
- Well, you've been funding the newspaper."
- But it was just too much.
- It was too overwhelming for them to be
- able to put anything together, which
- was, of course, the object.
- But these people were going crazy.
- And then I remember, of course, people could talk.
- I'll never forget seeing the gay contingent there.
- It was just amazing.
- Dressed to the hilt, the guys like this.
- And everybody is wondering whether they were
- going to be lynched, really.
- And the people really did want to lynch them.
- Making their statements-- there was some nun.
- I can't remember who she was.
- Got up and spoke in favor of the thing.
- And then, of course, there's a break
- between the public comments and the Council officially starting
- its meeting.
- And so I remember getting up and going
- back to where they were taking their break in the back.
- And the mayor is there.
- Ryan was a good man.
- He really was.
- He really didn't want the aggravation,
- but it came with the territory kind of thing.
- But this joker whose name I can't remember except that he's
- a classic Italian guy--
- EVELYN BAILEY: White?
- BETTY DWYER: White Italian guy who
- was a great buddy of Tom Ryan.
- That's the only reason he was on City Council.
- Making a comment to the effect of, "Well, all those nuns
- are a bunch of lesbians anyway."
- KEVIN INDOVINO: It wasn't Termotto, was it?
- BETTY DWYER: He didn't say it just like that.
- Huh?
- KEVIN INDOVINO Was it Termotto?
- BETTY DWYER: I don't think so.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Because I know Termotto and Ryan were
- pretty close.
- BETTY DWYER: Was he a Council member?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: No, but he was--
- BETTY DWYER: I don't think it was Termotto.
- I don't think that was the name.
- If you go back and look in the--
- EVELYN BAILEY: I'll find it.
- BETTY DWYER: Look in 19-- that would have been '78.
- EVELYN BAILEY: 1978.
- BETTY DWYER: Yeah, it would have been '78.
- And I can't remember exactly how.
- He didn't say it quite-- he didn't use the term lesbian.
- Nobody used the term lesbian.
- Nobody in those days would allow such a thing
- to come out of their mouths.
- (unintelligible) he wouldn't have said that.
- But it was.
- That was the gist of it.
- This lady coming up, I don't what they're doing.
- But he didn't dare--
- I don't know.
- He might have voted against it with Schiano.
- He might have actually voted against it,
- which was irrelevant anyway of course because they
- were the only two.
- His religious conscience might have
- forced him to vote against it.
- Ryan didn't care probably.
- Didn't make any difference.
- But it was high drama, high drama that night,
- and a real relief.
- So just to round it out, what they did--
- because City Council really didn't
- want to have to go through that again--
- is the next year they decided that it would be better
- to use those monies for an energy conservation
- program and jobs.
- So they did stop it.
- And they put an end to it, but we continued.
- And I ran as an energy conservation,
- doing energy audits in people's homes.
- It was the late seventies.
- The energy was a big deal then.
- So we ran an energy conservation program, but they got it in.
- Two years was as much as they were
- willing to take for the heat.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Was it--
- was all the heat just because of the Gay Alliance?
- Or were there other factors in there?
- Other organizations, African-American organizations,
- or women's organizations?
- Anything else or the focus was just on the Gay Alliance?
- BETTY DWYER: Not really.
- In those days, there was nationally
- from the far-right Republicans who
- opposed these government programs, which was nothing
- like it is today of course.
- There was this waste of taxpayer money on such things.
- And Rochester made the national news and editorial.
- I can't remember who that guy was
- who was a national columnist who cited this
- as one of the great examples of how inappropriate
- and what a waste of taxpayer money
- it was that Rochester, New York was giving money to gays.
- And that ran nationally.
- I can't remember what his name was, who that columnist was.
- EVELYN BAILEY: I don't know either.
- But in the Council chambers when the people from the community
- spoke, they only spoke in opposition to the Gay Alliance?
- BETTY DWYER: The only issue was the Gay Alliance.
- There was no other organization that had any--
- not to my recollection.
- There wasn't a word spoken about anybody else.
- KEVIN INDOVINO And was it your sense
- that all those people in City Council, all the crazies--
- do you think they were all organized just by Macaluso?
- BETTY DWYER: No, actually they weren't Macaluso.
- They were the Baptists.
- Macaluso didn't really-- to my recollection--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Macaluso was there.
- BETTY DWYER: Yes.
- But Macaluso didn't have a big following, as I recall.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Not at that time.
- BETTY DWYER: The Catholic Church was a more serious institution.
- It had a little bit more to do with spirituality
- in those days.
- It's just degenerated from that time.
- Like I said, the Catholic nun got up in support of it.
- There was no big move by the Catholic Church.
- KEVIN INDOVINO I was just trying to get a sense of who organized
- to get all those people there.
- BETTY DWYER: It was predominantly
- this one minister.
- The Moral Majority was--
- he's the same guy that set up that--
- and it still is there, and I drive down along Seneca Lake--
- that he set up, that freedom place, whatever.
- Then he got into some problems.
- Because I don't know whether there was scandals.
- There was some kinds of scandals,
- and I can't remember if it was just finance or whatever.
- But it really made him fade into pretty much oblivion,
- although that place is still down there.
- And I have no idea who's really running it.
- But I think his church was over around the Thurston Brooks
- area.
- I can't remember what his name was now,
- but it was predominantly that congregation
- led by that minister.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Well, and what--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, there's a name on the tip of my tongue
- here.
- It was an African-American gentleman.
- BETTY DWYER: No.
- Unh-uh.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: No?
- BETTY DWYER: No.
- No.
- He was white.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Not the person I'm thinking about.
- BETTY DWYER: No.
- The African-Americans stayed--
- Bill must have gotten the African-Americans to stay away
- from it.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: It's not who I was thinking of, then.
- EVELYN BAILEY: I can go to city archives--
- BETTY DWYER: You should be able to find--
- EVELYN BAILEY: And look up the City Council meeting minutes
- for that committee meeting and for the hearing.
- BETTY DWYER: Because I don't know whether he personally
- spoke.
- EVELYN BAILEY: But they would have a list of speakers
- as well.
- BETTY DWYER: Yeah.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Do you remember--
- it was 1978.
- Do you remember which month?
- BETTY DWYER: Just a minute.
- My guess is that-- let me see.
- I think October is when I--
- EVELYN BAILEY: It was in the fall.
- BETTY DWYER: --when I started working,
- it would have been like October, November.
- Would have had to have been right around then
- because I got--
- EVELYN BAILEY: And there was television coverage.
- BETTY DWYER: I started working in October.
- Oh, yeah.
- There was all kinds of media coverage.
- You could go to the DNC probably, and they would have--
- EVELYN BAILEY: One of the few times--
- BETTY DWYER: --there would have been probably quotes from him.
- No, he was the one because the Catholic Church at that time--
- Macaluso was way out of the mainstream.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Sure.
- Sure.
- BETTY DWYER: He was way, way out of the mainstream.
- And there was no other--
- like I have absolutely no recollection.
- And I wouldn't know.
- You'd have to ask Bill, but I'd be very surprised
- if he got a call from the bishop or anything like that.
- That would be shocking to me if it was the case.
- I don't think so.
- EVELYN BAILEY: No.
- The Decent Minority I think was a group at the time also.
- BETTY DWYER: I don't remember that one.
- But I remember this.
- And I can't-- if you said his name, I think I would remember.
- But no, it was all white.
- There was no real action from the African-American community
- at all or the Puerto Rican community.
- It was pure white.
- You didn't have that vocal opposition in those days.
- We were still too much into the Civil Rights Movement.
- And people were having to put coalitions together.
- They couldn't afford to do that, even if they were thinking
- about it, I don't think.
- Because at that time--
- well, Tim.
- When did Tim Mains go on Council?
- He was first elected--
- EVELYN BAILEY: '84.
- BETTY DWYER: Yeah.
- So people were-- and leadership both I think probably
- in the Puerto Rican and in the black community
- were more politically savvy than to start making serious enemies
- like that.
- So it was a pure white thing.
- People I hadn't-- it was shocking to me because they
- were people--
- I had never encountered anybody like them.
- I'm Irondequoit.
- I'm white suburbs-- whole thing.
- But hey, never ran into any--
- even the anti-Italians didn't--
- we had neighbors two doors down because they
- didn't want their kids to play with us because my mother was
- Italian.
- But this was hate, hate, pure unadulterated.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Like I said, it had to be organized by someone.
- BETTY DWYER: It was the church.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Someone needed to get a group of people--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Put the list together.
- BETTY DWYER: They bussed them in.
- They brought them over with their kids.
- What was so appalling to me is with their little kids.
- And they're all-- these kids are just obviously being--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Because the news cameras were going to be there.
- BETTY DWYER: Totally indoctrinated with hate
- in the name of-- yeah, that was a unique experience of my life,
- I'll tell you.
- Both of those meetings were--
- I was the activist usually on the other side.
- I was one going and screaming at City Council
- and screaming at the institutions.
- I got a little taste of sitting on the other side
- of the table on that one.
- So then the contract played out.
- And, like I said, then they just avoided it the next year
- by saying enough of this.
- I figured, well, it had made its mark.
- I felt it made a big mark, a big statement in this overall--
- made a big statement about--
- I think it made a big statement for the Urban League,
- for Bill Johnson.
- I personally think that his reputation was tremendously
- enhanced in the general community
- for having what they, many of the quote "liberal"
- kind of more open-minded people in this area, felt
- was something of a courageous move
- to get involved in that controversial
- of a political thing and then pull it off.
- And I think for the overall community.
- All hell didn't break loose because the Gay Alliance had
- three-- and everybody didn't turn homosexual
- in the next four years.
- It seems to be that statement somehow
- has to be proven to people at large.
- So I think it was--
- and I felt that it was about time
- that I stood up and did something
- for the gay community.
- EVELYN BAILEY: But you weren't out.
- BETTY DWYER: It was an opportunity.
- No, I wasn't out at all.
- And I wasn't out for a number of--
- for some time after that.
- I'm sure there was talk and suspicion, but I don't think--
- at the time, Bill Johnson didn't know me well enough.
- He wouldn't have had any particular reason
- to think that.
- He probably did over the years.
- I worked for them for another ten years and then
- three more years after that.
- So I think I probably--
- I lived with a woman, and I didn't keep that a secret.
- But we didn't socialize together at company fairs or anything
- like that.
- She wasn't out too, and so we didn't.
- So no, I was pretty--
- I was as closeted as--
- EVELYN BAILEY: So let's jump ahead ten years to 1989,
- 1990 when you came on the board of the Gay Alliance
- as treasurer.
- BETTY DWYER: Yeah, that was ten years later.
- True.
- It's amazing.
- I had decided I had to come out, really.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And all of a sudden,
- this organization that was a not-for-profit that
- bought a building was being taxed property tax.
- BETTY DWYER: Well, as soon as we bought the building,
- the city wanted to tax it.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Talk to us about that experience in terms of--
- obviously, we were exempt.
- But that apparently wasn't clear.
- BETTY DWYER: No.
- You can be a 501c3 organization.
- Well, I don't think that--
- our situation I think was totally illegal what
- they did, but this just I'm drawing from my experience now
- as a developer for (unintelligible).
- We own property, and I develop the development company there.
- And we built buildings, and owned property,
- and rented a building to the charter school
- on Clifford Avenue.
- And the city wanted to tax us for that.
- And to be perfectly honest, they probably
- had some real justification in doing that because we
- were making money off of it.
- We put a lot of money into it, and we owed a lot of money
- on it.
- But we were creating more income than our total expenses showed.
- We were kind of breaking even at that point.
- But anyway, it was planned to be a moneymaker
- from my point of view anyway.
- So in a way, I think, yeah, hey.
- It's a big issue now too.
- It's an issue around churches and property
- that churches are making big money on
- and everything that are tax exempt.
- But what they were saying is that
- this nonprofit organization that's
- using its building for its own nonprofit purposes
- and not making money off it-- it's not
- a profit-making business to make money off of this building.
- It's using it for its stated goals.
- Which it still should be taxed, and I just
- didn't understand the logic at all.
- And that's why when they tried to do it, I said, hey.
- And you know where I went?
- I went to talk to Domingo Garcia because Domingo
- Garcia at the time had become head of Ibero American Action
- League.
- And I had been around when Ibero American Action
- League had been established and had advocated with the Puerto
- Rican community in that.
- And so I knew what bylaws and constitutions and whatnot
- of these organizations looked like.
- And that's clearly an advocacy organization
- for the Puerto Rican community or for the Spanish speaking
- community, which is essentially the same thing as the Gay
- Alliance is an advocacy service provider for the gay community.
- What difference is there?
- And they were clearly a tax-exempt organization
- that had tax-exempt property.
- So I said, "Hey, Domingo, could you
- give me a copy of your bylaws and whatnot
- so we can take a look at this because the city's
- trying to tax us?"
- So he gave me a copy of bylaws, which then I
- sat down with Ellen.
- And, of course, Ellen was an attorney.
- And I'm not sure what tack she was
- going to take in terms of going after the city about this.
- But I know I gave her the bylaws and said, "Hey, Ellen, this
- is ridiculous.
- This is the same thing.
- This is pure discrimination against us.
- I don't know how they can possibly defend it."
- So I don't know that that was her--
- I can't remember.
- I was there in court when she made the argument to the judge.
- EVELYN BAILEY: But there were some conversations and meetings
- that took place.
- BETTY DWYER: Yeah, with what was his name?
- Tom?
- EVELYN BAILEY: With the city attorney.
- BETTY DWYER: Yeah, what was his name?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Lou Cash.
- BETTY DWYER: Lou Cash who had gone from the city school.
- Well, let me tell you I lost all respect in the world for Lou
- Cash because he not only--
- we did.
- We met with him and said, "Lou, this is ridiculous."
- And so I don't know what kind-- he didn't make any sense to me
- in terms of any justification for what he was doing
- or what their case was supposed to be.
- But you're trying to be politic and diplomatic and all
- that nice kind of stuff.
- So we said, "Well, you know, we really disagree with this.
- And blah, blah, blah."
- And he said something about looking at it
- and considering or whatever, and he'd get back to us.
- Well, he never did.
- And my understanding-- and that was the end of it for me
- as far as that was concerned.
- The guy was supposed to get back to us.
- He never got back to us--
- not me, anyway.
- Nobody ever told me he had gotten back to anybody.
- And so, hey, go to court.
- Boy, if there's one thing I've learned,
- you better be careful about lawyers' opinions
- because they want to negotiate everything.
- Let's not go to court.
- Can't go to court.
- It's going to cost you a zillion dollars to go to court.
- Don't go to court.
- Well, hell, sometimes you just have to say, I'll go to court.
- Forget it.
- I'll meet you there, buddy.
- You put your case up.
- I'll put my case up.
- And may the best man or woman win.
- So we went to court.
- Then I heard by the grapevine or something
- later on that Lou Cash claimed that I didn't follow up,
- or I didn't keep my word.
- Or I didn't do something.
- I don't even know what the hell he was talking about
- because there's nothing else.
- I had never refused to meet with anybody
- or refused to do anything.
- I didn't even refuse to compromise
- because there was never even any compromise offered.
- There was nothing offered.
- And somebody said that.
- I don't know where I heard that he
- said-- he might have even said it
- in City Council or something.
- I don't know where he said it.
- But I said, what's the matter with that guy?
- I have no idea what he was talking about
- or what anybody was talking about.
- Because we had that one meeting.
- It's my recollection we only ever had one meeting with him.
- And at the meeting, we made it clear
- that, hey, this isn't right.
- It isn't equitable.
- It isn't fair.
- We don't see any basis that you should be doing this.
- And I don't know whether he was crying about the city's
- financial situation, or what they needed, or whatever.
- But my recollection was that he said that we would get back
- together.
- He would get back in contact with us,
- and we would get back together.
- And that never happened.
- And then it was--
- I don't know-- maybe even years later.
- It was some time later.
- And it was in a public forum I think--
- which really ticked me off because I thought,
- hey, nobody told me about anything
- or gave me an opportunity to say anything.
- What do you mean he's besmirching
- my name without any kind of opportunity to say anything?
- I couldn't-- who cared really?
- But that man is nobody I would ever do business with.
- EVELYN BAILEY: So then who asked--
- well, Ellen was on the board I think as our counsel.
- BETTY DWYER: Probably.
- EVELYN BAILEY: So she prepared the brief.
- And it was Judge Sicoroa?
- Syracuse?
- BETTY DWYER: Yeah, I don't remember either.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Siragusa?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Hm?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Siragusa.
- BETTY DWYER: I think it was Siragusa.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Siragusa.
- BETTY DWYER: It might have been Siragusa.
- I can't remember.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- Who heard the case.
- BETTY DWYER: Yeah.
- I went to listen to it when she presented the case to him.
- And I can't really totally remember.
- She was aggressive in the way she presented it.
- Like I say, I just remember giving her that just
- to say, "If this is useful to you, here's my bureau's bylaws
- and whatnot."
- We try to think different in any dramatic way
- from the type of organization we're talking about.
- And I can't really remember to be perfectly honest
- whether she really used it, did use it, or how she used it,
- or if she used it, or anything.
- But my understanding was that his assistant or his--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Judge Siragusa's law clerk--
- BETTY DWYER: Law clerk, that's it.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Wrote the decision.
- BETTY DWYER: Which was quite unusual,
- from what I understand, that there was that extensive
- a brief or decision written up in that kind of a case--
- EVELYN BAILEY: But his law clerk was gay,
- and of course they found in our favor.
- BETTY DWYER: I can't remember whether Cash
- appealed that or not.
- Such a damn fool.
- EVELYN BAILEY: They never appealed it.
- BETTY DWYER: Well, he had appealed the other property
- laws, thousands of dollars from the city, when he went after--
- when he appealed the decision around property taxes
- for businesses.
- And it cost-- they not only got ruled against them,
- lost the case, but spent zillions
- of dollars on his time and legal time to do it.
- And so this was his--
- yeah, he was-- it's probably an old boys' network.
- EVELYN BAILEY: I got the impression, though,
- from that meeting that it wasn't necessarily
- his belief that the Alliance should pay property tax,
- but that he had no choice in doing it
- because the mayor wanted it pursued.
- BETTY DWYER: No, I don't remember that.
- EVELYN BAILEY: OK.
- BETTY DWYER: I don't believe him if he said it.
- I don't know.
- I just have a really bad taste in my mouth with that man.
- I don't trust him.
- I don't know.
- Who was mayor?
- That would have been Ryan still, right?
- I would find that difficult to believe.
- Ryan was a good man.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Well, we have yet to interview Clair,
- who was involved in that and involved in it as monitor
- for the CETA grant.
- BETTY DWYER: I remember when we were doing
- all this copying and stuff.
- She started to freak out.
- I said, "Clair, relax."
- But it was a--
- but she was, of course, the monitor.
- So she really felt the pressure too
- if anybody had been really screwing around.
- EVELYN BAILEY: So where did you begin your professional career?
- BETTY DWYER: ABC, Action for a Better Community in '66,
- just as it was being formed, before Jim McCullough.
- I was at ABC under the first--
- I could write another book about that.
- I could write encyclopedias about it.
- Yeah, the first director of ABC--
- I can't think of his name now.
- But anyway, it was incorporated I think in '65.
- I started working for them in October
- of '66 in the neighborhood center
- that had the territory around the public market northeast.
- So we were initially out of--
- I was hired as a community organizer.
- (knocking)
- EVELYN BAILEY: Come in.
- Must be Joe Termotto.
- JOE TERMOTTO: Yes.
- I'm looking for you and you, Kevin.
- You understand?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Hi.
- This is Betty Dwyer.
- JOE TERMOTTO: Hi.
- How do you do?
- BETTY DWYER: Hi.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Betty, this is Joe Termotto,
- one of our community elders--
- JOE TERMOTTO: Ron's here.
- Just to monitor OK?
- EVELYN BAILEY: And Ron.
- RON MATTER: Hello.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Ron Matter, do you know Ron?
- BETTY DWYER: Hi, Ron.
- RON MATTER: Hello.
- BETTY DWYER: We've seen you around a bit.
- RON MATTER: Greetings.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Greetings.
- RON MATTER: (unintelligible).
- EVELYN BAILEY: So we're just finishing up I just wanted to--
- RON MATTER: Should we go out in the hallway?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: No.
- EVELYN BAILEY: No.
- RON MATTER: OK.
- Seriously?
- Because we can--
- EVELYN BAILEY: I just wanted to summarize
- that Betty had been involved with the CETA grant
- from the Urban League.
- And then she was treasurer of the Alliance
- when the city wanted us to pay property tax.
- JOE TERMOTTO: That was a few years ago, wasn't it?
- EVELYN BAILEY: 1990.
- JOE TERMOTTO: Oh 1990.
- OK.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And she's been involved in community
- development forever.
- BETTY DWYER: I just won't go away.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Pardon me?
- BETTY DWYER: I just won't go away.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Well, you you have certainly
- brought to the Alliance a tremendous amount of skill
- and a tremendous amount of commitment in your integrity,
- in your believing that people need
- to be free in who they are.
- And you've served this community well--
- not just the gay community, but the greater Rochester
- community.
- Bettie is responsible for the development of Clifford Avenue
- and the ten-block area in Clifford, putting up
- low-income housing and schools.
- JOE TERMOTTO: No kidding.
- You worked for the city then, didn't you?
- BETTY DWYER: No.
- I worked for Ibero American Development Corporation.
- It's the Hispanic community.
- JOE TERMOTTO: That's very nice.
- BETTY DWYER: Well, I had the interesting experience
- of working with Jim McCullough at ABC for almost ten years,
- and then moving over to work with Bill Johnson for ten
- or twelve years, and then with Julio Vasquez for thirteen
- years.
- So I worked with all the major minority
- leaders in town, which has been an education
- to say the least for me--
- my primary education, actually.
- EVELYN BAILEY: But a successful career.
- BETTY DWYER: Well, hopefully a few things.
- (end of recording)