Audio Interview, Bob Dardano, July 30, 2011

  • EVELYN BAILEY: Today is July 26th,
  • and I'm sitting here talking to--
  • I just went blank.
  • BOB DARDANO: To me.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: To you.
  • BOB DARDANO: To me.
  • Bob Dardano.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Bob Dardano who was involved with the Alliance
  • in the '80s.
  • And you were vice president or president.
  • BOB DARDANO: No.
  • I was on the board.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: You were on the board.
  • In 1980?
  • BOB DARDANO: Well, I was involved between 1981
  • and when I left Rochester, which would have been in late 1986.
  • I don't remember what years I was officially on the board.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: OK.
  • You were born here?
  • BOB DARDANO: I was actually born in Utica.
  • And my parents moved here when I was two.
  • So, obviously, they brought me along.
  • So I grew up here.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And when you were growing up,
  • were you aware of your sexual orientation or did that
  • come later in high school, in college, and so on?
  • BOB DARDANO: Well, I think I started
  • to recognize those certain feelings around the age of ten.
  • Feelings for other boys, not knowing
  • what that was, of course, not being
  • able to articulate it or put a name to it or understand it.
  • I don't think any child of that age understands sexuality
  • at all.
  • But looking back, now I can see that I was sort of maybe
  • starting to have little crushes.
  • Or I certainly started to have crushes,
  • if you will, or was more interested in sort of male hero
  • figures on TV.
  • Like people sometimes ask others you know, well who
  • was your first celebrity crush?
  • Well, my first celebrity crush was William Shatner
  • on Star Trek.
  • Of course, I loved Star Trek.
  • I loved astronomy and science and all of that, so, you know.
  • He was a dashing, handsome young man.
  • I still think he's kind of interesting.
  • He's quite a character.
  • But yeah I started to have these feelings.
  • Now, that was Star Trek was on between '66 and '69.
  • I was born in '56, so.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: So.
  • Did you have a vocabulary?
  • BOB DARDANO: No.
  • No.
  • Not in those days.
  • The first time I heard the word homosexual,
  • I was in seventh grade.
  • And I remember, well I don't know
  • if it was before class, after class, during recess, whatever,
  • but it was not during class time.
  • There were a few kids sort of hanging around
  • in the corner of the classroom.
  • And I heard one of my classmates tell the others that, you know,
  • homosexual was the word for men who
  • liked other men or something.
  • I'm not quite sure she put it even that nicely.
  • But I don't think she purposely said it in a negative way.
  • It just sort of was a young child's way
  • of discovering this naughty word maybe, you know.
  • Now, I was not in the little group that was talking.
  • I kind of overheard it.
  • But I didn't really hear what else they were saying,
  • but that word penetrated.
  • That word hit me.
  • And I thought, oh, you know, is that what I am.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Were you aware of negative attitudes
  • or positive attitudes toward homosexuals when you were?
  • I mean, this young lady mentioned the word.
  • Was there a sense of derogatory negative connotation or was it
  • just informational?
  • BOB DARDANO: Well, it was not negative from her.
  • I don't remember that from her.
  • It was almost like she'd gone to the dictionary,
  • you know, to find this word that maybe she
  • had overheard somewhere.
  • So this was seventh grade.
  • We're talking 1967, 1968 was my seventh grade year.
  • I was certainly aware that this was not something
  • that you talked about or you wanted anybody to know about.
  • I remember writing a little love note type of thing
  • to one of the boys in the neighborhood
  • that my father found.
  • Although it was folded up, he'd never actually read it.
  • But he was asking me what it was.
  • I was afraid he was going to see it.
  • So, I mean, yes.
  • Somehow you knew that this was not a good thing.
  • And, I can't point to a specific sermon in church or things
  • that people say.
  • But you didn't see it anywhere.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Prevailing attitude was--
  • BOB DARDANO: This is not normal.
  • Yeah.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And, of course, at that time,
  • it was still a diagnosable mental illness
  • according to the DSM III.
  • Because that didn't get revoked until 1973.
  • Did you hear anything about Stonewall in 1969?
  • BOB DARDANO: No.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: No?
  • BOB DARDANO: No.
  • Nothing.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: So you had not a clue?
  • BOB DARDANO: Not a clue.
  • No.
  • Nothing.
  • I mean, I suppose we could go back
  • through the records of the Democrat And Chronicle
  • and see if there was anything published.
  • We certainly did not read the New York Times or New York City
  • newspapers, of which there was only scant mention of Stonewall
  • anyway.
  • It certainly was not taught as a historical event at Cardinal
  • Mooney High School or in Catholic circles.
  • Now, Stonewall, of course, was June of '69.
  • I had just graduated from eighth grade
  • and was going to go into high school the next year.
  • But, my gosh, my understanding is a lot of schools
  • still might not even mention Stonewall
  • as a historical event.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: That's right.
  • BOB DARDANO: So, no.
  • I would have heard nothing about Stonewall.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: When did you then become
  • involved with the Gay Alliance?
  • Was it like political involvement first and then?
  • I mean, how did all of that?--
  • BOB DARDANO: OK.
  • Well, I guess I have to back up from my GAGV connection
  • a couple of years.
  • In the summer of '79, I went to graduate school
  • at NYU for the summer.
  • And that's when I would consider I came out.
  • In that, I started going to gay bars in New York City.
  • So that was the summer of '79.
  • Up until then through high school, through college--
  • I graduated from high school in '73, I graduated from U of R
  • in '77--
  • I did not date anyone.
  • I still had physical attractions to men.
  • I occasionally had emotional attractions
  • to one girl in high school.
  • And, you know, who knows, maybe there
  • was one other woman that I sort of felt some kind of connection
  • with, but no physical connection.
  • So I always thought, I convinced myself
  • that eventually I would meet a girl or woman with whom
  • everything would come together, emotional connection
  • and physical connection and that this would go away.
  • But that didn't happen.
  • Because in 1979, I went to New York, going out.
  • Then I ended up meeting a classmate of mine
  • to whom I was attracted in both ways.
  • And I thought, oh, so that other thing isn't going to happen.
  • This is sort of where I am.
  • I was, you know, much more comfortable with that idea
  • at that time.
  • I was twenty-three.
  • So that was '79.
  • So then by time, you know, I came back to Rochester,
  • you know whatever.
  • I got involved in GAGV in 1981.
  • And the reason I got involved was because I
  • was dating someone here.
  • I had started dating him in early 1981,
  • and he was involved in the Alliance.
  • And so I got involved in GAGV as a way
  • of having a way of spending time with him,
  • and a way of sharing an interest.
  • So that's sort of why I got involved.
  • Before then I was not political at all.
  • I wouldn't have considered myself political.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Did you know about the Gay Aalliance
  • before then?
  • BOB DARDANO: I must have.
  • Because when I was in college at U of R,
  • they had the GLF, which had become
  • established before I actually went to school there
  • in September of '73.
  • And at some point along the way, I
  • don't remember which year it was,
  • I tend to think it was maybe sophomore or junior year that's
  • just a total guess, but I had heard about meetings that they
  • held and I was going to go to the meeting.
  • And I think that if I were living away--
  • see I lived at home, I commuted--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
  • BOB DARDANO: If I lived on campus
  • or if I'd gone away to college, it
  • would have been a lot easier to go to that meeting.
  • But because I still lived at home, it was not.
  • So I recall walking up the stairway in Todd Union
  • and going down the corridor to the room where the meeting was
  • going to be held and getting scared and turning
  • around and leaving.
  • I just couldn't do it.
  • I also during that period was reading The Empty Closet, which
  • was delivered to Todd Union.
  • And I would go and I would very quickly snatch a copy,
  • throw it in my bag.
  • I would go into the men's room.
  • I would go into a stall, and I would sit and read the paper,
  • and then I would leave it there.
  • So that nobody would catch me with this newspaper.
  • So I must have heard about the Gay Alliance
  • just by reading the paper.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
  • Because in 1972, early '73, the Alliance
  • had left the University of Rochester campus.
  • The GLF was still in existence, but it
  • had taken on a less political stance
  • and a much more, quote unquote, "research academic venue."
  • Did you know Karen Hagberg?
  • BOB DARDANO: No.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: OK.
  • BOB DARDANO: Not at U of R. No.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Bob Osborne?
  • Or Larry Fine?
  • BOB DARDANO: I didn't know any of them at U of R.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: OK.
  • You met them later perhaps.
  • BOB DARDANO: I probably met them later.
  • Or certainly learned their names later.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: So once you were involved with the Alliance
  • that was your segue into--
  • did you write for The Empty Closet?
  • BOB DARDANO: I did.
  • I did quite a lot actually.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: A column or feature?
  • BOB DARDANO: A column and news.
  • I wrote a lot.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Under your own name?
  • BOB DARDANO: Yes.
  • Why not? (laughs)
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Well.
  • BOB DARDANO: I know why not, but yes.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: OK.
  • BOB DARDANO: I did.
  • And most of that, well, that would have been I
  • may have started in '81.
  • Certainly by '82 I was writing for The Empty Closet.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Do you recall who the editor was?
  • BOB DARDANO: Well, Yve Skeet was the editor much of the time
  • when I was doing the writing.
  • She was the editor for a few years, I think.
  • Trying to remember who was the editor beforehand.
  • I don't remember.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Howard?
  • Cullen?
  • BOB DARDANO: I just don't know.
  • I was also the membership/mailing list keeper
  • for the EC, which in those days meant a metal box with cards
  • in them.
  • The subscribers list that was it.
  • I was the subscription manager.
  • That was my title, subscription manager.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: OK.
  • BOB DARDANO: So, of course, everything was analog.
  • You had mailing labels and things
  • like that to mail out the paper.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: I think before Yve,
  • Tim Mains had been editor for a couple of years.
  • Sue Cowell had been editor.
  • Holly Gerlaugh had been editor.
  • Yve Skeet.
  • Howard Cullen I think, may have come after Yve.
  • Of course, Jay Baker was the first editor
  • of The Empty Closet.
  • That was your segue into political activism?
  • BOB DARDANO: Yes.
  • I would say the Alliance was my segue through that.
  • And The Empty Closet and GAGV both.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And so you became involved
  • with Tim's first campaign?
  • BOB DARDANO: Yes.
  • That was 1985.
  • In 1984, I remember working on Doug Call's campaign
  • for Congress.
  • This was when Barbara Conable, who was the long term
  • Congressman for this area, for the district.
  • I remember it was Barbara Conable and Frank Horton who
  • were members of Congress for a long time from Monroe County.
  • And Barbara Conable retired from the House
  • and there was an open seat in 1984, if I remember correctly.
  • And so the Republicans were running
  • Fred Eckert from Greece, I think,
  • and the Democrats are running Doug Call
  • who was a sheriff maybe from Genesee County.
  • And I worked on his campaign.
  • Because by then, I was also getting involved
  • in democratic politics.
  • I was involved in the 26th LD Committee.
  • So I was working for--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: That's infamous you know.
  • BOB DARDANO: --for Doug Call.
  • Really?
  • EVELYN BAILEY: The 26th LD.
  • BOB DARDANO: I don't know if the boundaries are the same,
  • but this is-- see, at that point,
  • I moved out of my parents' house in '84.
  • I lived on Lake Avenue near Birr Street near Nazareth High
  • School from '84 through '86.
  • And so that was in the Maplewood neighborhood.
  • That was in the 26th LD.
  • Phil Fedele was the chair.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: It's been a very active legislative district
  • forever.
  • BOB DARDANO: Yeah.
  • So I don't remember what prompted me to go to a meeting
  • there for the first time or whatever,
  • but by '84 I was involved.
  • And so I was working on that congressional campaign,
  • which Fred Eckert won.
  • So then the following year was Tim's first run
  • for city council.
  • And I was the field director for his campaign, which
  • meant I was in charge of people walking door to door,
  • the field operation.
  • And now, you know, that campaign was run out of his house
  • on Pearl Street.
  • And I think there was a room upstairs where
  • we had maps of the various parts of the city.
  • And as people walked a block, we would mark it off
  • in a black marker.
  • You know, people would come in.
  • I would give them their campaign literature,
  • give them maps, and tell them where to go.
  • You know a little script of what to say.
  • And they were knocking on doors, and giving out
  • campaign literature.
  • So we kept track of all that.
  • And we had a plan.
  • We, you know, had decided which parts of the city
  • we were going to target and in which order.
  • And by and large, we accomplished
  • our goal of covering the city the way we wanted to.
  • And then, you know, the election results are history.
  • You know, came in, he was ahead by eleven
  • votes on election night.
  • There were all these, they weren't
  • disputed ballots, what do they call them, provisional ballots
  • from people who had cast ballots who were not maybe on the voter
  • rolls.
  • And they were paper ballots that the two elections
  • commissioners, one from each party,
  • had to decide whether or not this envelope should be opened
  • and the vote counted.
  • And so we went to that session, which was a public meeting,
  • and, you know, watched as they decided
  • this envelope would be counted, this envelope would not.
  • And as the envelopes were opened and the votes read off,
  • you know, Tim's eleven vote lead turned into a deficit
  • at one point.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Oh, wow.
  • BOB DARDANO: Now remember, he was fighting
  • for the fifth and final spot with Bev Jackson who
  • was the leading Republican vote getter.
  • But at the end of the day, the eleven vote margin
  • he started with was the eleven vote margin he ended up with.
  • It all sort of balanced out and that was it.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Now, Sue Cowell was his campaign manager.
  • BOB DARDANO: Yes.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Is that where you and Sue met?
  • BOB DARDANO: No.
  • I think, I probably met her here at GAGV.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
  • BOB DARDANO: Yes.
  • I mean, I also in my work, if you will,
  • at GAGV, I mean, I was involved with, what's it called,
  • the political caucus.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
  • BOB DARDANO: Rosemary Cahill, John Noble
  • were, pardon the pun, notable in running and operating.
  • Where we had candidate questionnaires that went out.
  • Very few people, of course, returned them in those days.
  • And, you know, we rated candidates or whatever.
  • But we were also a meeting place where
  • people could come and sort of, you know, learn about politics
  • and get involved.
  • So I was doing that at GAGV as well as the outside--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Now, my memory and my dates may not be right.
  • That was after Midge Costanza, well after--
  • BOB DARDANO: Yes.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Midge.
  • BOB DARDANO: Yes, because Midge was, of course,
  • she left Rochester to be Jimmy Carter's special assistant.
  • He was president in the late '70s.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
  • BOB DARDANO: So that was all done.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Who was president in the late 80s?
  • Was it Reagan?
  • BOB DARDANO: Oh president of the United States?
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
  • BOB DARDANO: He became president in 1980 or was elected in '80.
  • So for the next eight years.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And he served two terms?
  • BOB DARDANO: Yes.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: OK.
  • So in '88, that was the end of his second term.
  • And then it went to?
  • BOB DARDANO: George H.W. Bush.
  • I had already moved to Washington at that point.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Thank goodness.
  • BOB DARDANO: I remember Mary Lou Wells.
  • Do you remember her?
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
  • BOB DARDANO: She either had a button
  • or she had a little saying that she liked to say.
  • That instead of saying Ronald Reagan, it was Ronnie Rayguns.
  • Because, of course, he was a proponent of Star Wars defense
  • system, and sort of seen as rather
  • belligerent and saber rattling.
  • But Mary Lou Wells, her partner Elaine--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Smith.
  • BOB DARDANO: Elaine Smith was it?
  • And they were both officers of GAGV.
  • What was his name?
  • Was it Mike?
  • Big guy, dark, curly hair.
  • I think he was president when I first started.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Mike Ferrino?
  • BOB DARDANO: No.
  • There was Ron Ferrino?
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Ron Ferrino.
  • BOB DARDANO: And he was--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Michael Robertson?
  • BOB DARDANO: Maybe.
  • Was that his name?
  • I don't know.
  • I seem to remember last name beginning with a W.
  • I don't know.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Well, Whitey.
  • was president initially.
  • BOB DARDANO: Whitey LeBlanc was before.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Then Michael.
  • BOB DARDANO: Then Michael, yes.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Then, I think, Pat Collins.
  • After Mary Lou Wells and Horace Lethbridge?
  • BOB DARDANO: Horace Lethbridge, yes.
  • He was president when I was still here.
  • Then Claire Parker, I think, somewhere.
  • I think she may have been president when I left.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
  • She became president '89, '90.
  • BOB DARDANO: All right.
  • I was gone by then.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: But she chaired the picnic
  • for five years prior.
  • BOB DARDANO: And I always worked the GAGV table at the picnic.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
  • BOB DARDANO: And in those days, that's
  • all there was the picnic.
  • Of course, it was a big deal for us.
  • I know now it's a whole week of events.
  • And the parade I think is terrific.
  • I actually got to march in the parade.
  • Well, I rode in the parade here one time.
  • I happened to be in town the weekend
  • the parade was taking place.
  • This probably was somewhere in the '90s.
  • I know it started in '92 or so.
  • But in the late 90s, I went to watch the parade.
  • And a friend of mine was on a float with some drag queens.
  • And they were throwing beads.
  • Anyway, something that shouldn't have fallen out of the truck
  • fell out onto the street.
  • And I ran and picked it up to hand it and give it back
  • to them, and they just pulled me up on truck.
  • So I ended up riding in the parade throwing beads
  • out, which was a lot of fun.
  • I always march in the Washington D.C. parade,
  • which is a lot of fun as well.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: 1993.
  • BOB DARDANO: No.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: The gay pride parade?
  • BOB DARDANO: Gay pride parades.
  • Yeah.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Now, Bill Valenti identifies
  • June of '81 as the first time he identified AIDS as being
  • a disease in this community.
  • He apparently had a patient.
  • But in '86, AIDS Rochester began.
  • And shortly after that HPA began.
  • BOB DARDANO: I don't know what that is.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Helping People With AIDS.
  • BOB DARDANO: OK.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: With Tony Green and--
  • BOB DARDANO: Tony Green.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Jim Black.
  • BOB DARDANO: Yes.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And--
  • BOB DARDANO: Tony Green I remember.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Jackie Nudd.
  • BOB DARDANO: Jackie, of course.
  • Jackie was president.
  • And at that time when I was involved, too.
  • She and I were on our radio show together.
  • I'll tell you that after we talk about this, but yeah.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: So when AIDS first
  • hit this community in any visible way,
  • what response was there?
  • What did you think?
  • What did people think?
  • It was primarily focused at men.
  • BOB DARDANO: Yeah, sure.
  • I don't really remember talking about it too much.
  • I think I first heard about it myself,
  • I mean, or really thought about it by maybe '83 or so.
  • Sure there were some cases before then,
  • but it didn't really penetrate the consciousness, you know,
  • for a little bit.
  • So I know that Jackie became involved with AIDS Rochester.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: She became--
  • BOB DARDANO: Sue Cowell as well.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: --director.
  • As
  • BOB DARDANO: That's right.
  • She was director.
  • Yeah, I never got involved with the efforts against AIDS.
  • I sort of kept on the side the political, nondiscrimination,
  • that sort of politics.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
  • I mentioned Tony Green, and you said, oh, yes.
  • BOB DARDANO: Yeah.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Were you a Friars member?
  • BOB DARDANO: Well, I remember him from there.
  • And then I remember him from his activism, with,
  • you know, regarding AIDS.
  • Yeah.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
  • Were you a spokesperson for the Gay Alliance when
  • you were on the radio show?
  • BOB DARDANO: Well, I don't remember
  • whose radio show it was.
  • I remember that Jackie and I were
  • going there to represent, yes, the Alliance and gays
  • and lesbians.
  • We would represent everybody.
  • You know?
  • Because, of course, we all think the same.
  • So to have two people on a show, you've
  • covered everybody, right?
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
  • BOB DARDANO: So I don't remember where it was, who it was.
  • The thing that I remember most clearly,
  • which is kind of funny, about this is that--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: It was a radio show.
  • BOB DARDANO: It was a radio show.
  • Now, I didn't want my name used for some reason.
  • Jackie, of course, was already president of the Alliance.
  • So she was public.
  • So we had told the guy that, you know,
  • I was not going to use my real name.
  • So he introduced us.
  • And he introduced Jackie, and then he introduced me.
  • And he said a man blah blah, blah, blah.
  • We'll call him Bob, which, of course, is my name.
  • So that was always kind of funny that we're
  • going to pretend that's not my name, but that's my name.
  • You know.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Do you recall the conversation being
  • about, perhaps, the Alliance wanting
  • to hold its annual dinner at the Chamber of Commerce?
  • BOB DARDANO: I don't think so.
  • I think it was very basic, you know, homosexuality 101,
  • you know--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: WCNF?
  • BOB DARDANO: I don't remember.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Was it late at night?
  • BOB DARDANO: It wasn't late at night.
  • I don't believe it was late at night.
  • Might have been evening.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Because we had a radio
  • show Green Thursday early on.
  • But it wasn't that?
  • BOB DARDANO: Yeah.
  • No.
  • I think this was some, I don't remember what kind of show
  • it was.
  • I'm not even sure.
  • Go back and look at The Empty Closet records
  • and see how it was reported, if we reported it.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Oh, I'm sure we did.
  • BOB DARDANO: But it was Jackie and me.
  • And it was kind of interesting, you know.
  • Because Jackie's voice was rather deep.
  • You know?
  • It was probably deeper than mine.
  • So it may have confused people listening on the radio.
  • But, I mean, looking back I can smile and say, you know,
  • that that was fun, but--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: It was scary.
  • BOB DARDANO: Well, it was scary.
  • It was nerve wracking, because you are, wrongly, of course,
  • but you are representing a whole community, you know, in this.
  • At that era when there were so few voices
  • that the general public would listen to
  • or wanted to hear from, you really
  • did feel like you had to say only the right things
  • and make everything look wonderful.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Wonderful.
  • BOB DARDANO: You know?
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
  • BOB DARDANO: But you would never today
  • say, well, we're going to take two white people
  • and say that a lesbian and a gay man that they "represent
  • the community", quote unquote.
  • You know?
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Mm-hmm.
  • Was Anita Bryant and the Save the Children campaign
  • a part of your?
  • BOB DARDANO: I think that was before.
  • And you mentioned the dinner with the Chamber
  • of Commerce issue.
  • I believe that was '83, and that was the spark that
  • led to the city council passing its nondiscrimination
  • ordinance.
  • That was in December of '83.
  • I wrote a long article about that, basically,
  • quoting, recounting everything that happened at that meeting.
  • That was one of those deals where you sign up
  • to speak before the council, and, of course,
  • the other side managed to scoop up most of the spots.
  • We won that vote seven to one, if I recall.
  • Nine members of the council, right?
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
  • BOB DARDANO: We won seven to one.
  • There was one abstention.
  • I think there was one abstention.
  • John Curran voted no.
  • And he said that he was only voting
  • no because he didn't agree with the process by which it had all
  • come up, you know, whatever.
  • But all the others voted yes.
  • And what kind of set that in motion that night,
  • and who knows, I don't know how the council members discussed
  • all this meetings just among themselves beforehand,
  • but the citizens got up to speak.
  • Then it came time for vote.
  • Council members would speak from the dais
  • and then cast their vote.
  • The first one was Ruth Scott who was
  • an African-American at-large member.
  • She may have been vice mayor at the time.
  • I don't recall.
  • But, anyway, we weren't sure where
  • she was on this vote before the meeting.
  • And she said as much in her remarks
  • that she wasn't sure how she was going to vote on this.
  • But after hearing all of the hate filled remarks
  • by so many people, she realized that a nondiscrimination
  • ordinance was necessary.
  • And so she voted yes.
  • And who knows that yes vote from a person who has non-committed,
  • you know, beforehand may have influenced other people as they
  • cast their votes down the dais.
  • I don't know.
  • They may have already decided they were voting yes,
  • but we'll never know.
  • But seven to one, we won.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Talk to me a little bit
  • about the obvious hatred vehemently
  • aggressive presentations in that chamber.
  • I was there.
  • BOB DARDANO: Well, to be honest, I mean, I'd
  • like to have that issue of The Empty Closet right
  • here in front of me, probably the January issue of '84,
  • where I probably quoted all those people.
  • But it was, you know, Macaluso and the Citizens
  • for a Decent Society, I believe, was their name.
  • And so it was all religion based, as it is today.
  • Not a whole lot has changed in that regard.
  • No one can come up with a logical reason, a civic reason,
  • you know, to deny employment rights
  • or to deny equal marriage rights,
  • you knoe, Sometimes I think I wish
  • I had one of those gongs or buzzers,
  • and any time you mention religion or God or the Bible,
  • you know, as your rationale going to buzz you.
  • No.
  • We're not talking about that.
  • We're talking about civil rights.
  • We're talking about religious rights.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Had you heard that kind of vehement
  • diatribe before?
  • BOB DARDANO: I had heard slurs.
  • I don't recall hearing that kind of thing spoken from the pulpit
  • at my church, Catholic church, to be honest.
  • I don't remember that.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: I do think hearing the hatred,
  • seeing the people who are saying those words does impact one's
  • psyche, and makes one perhaps not feel as comfortable as one
  • might feel in other circumstances.
  • But certainly, the truth comes out
  • in terms of how people really feel.
  • BOB DARDANO: Yes, that's true.
  • And it cuts both ways.
  • To the uncertain gay or lesbian person,
  • often youth, hearing that kind of vitriol
  • can have a very negative impact.
  • To outside straight society with no skin in the game one
  • way or the other hearing that vitriol-- you know,
  • in effect that becomes one of our best friends.
  • Because that vitriol turns off people
  • who normally wouldn't care, turns them
  • into allies, defenders of us.
  • Especially as the years have gone
  • on as more and more of those people who wouldn't have cared
  • one way or the other found out that they have gay family
  • members or a lesbian neighbor or someone at work, you know.
  • Coming out was the key.
  • It remains the key to all of this.
  • I like to say that it was very easy for the right wing, put it
  • all under one big rubric of right wing,
  • it was very easy for the right wing
  • to keep society in an anti-gay, you know, frame of mind
  • when the only gay people that existed
  • were the very effeminate drag queen and the very masculine,
  • you know, butch lesbian.
  • Because it was easy because you could see them.
  • You could identify them.
  • You could point them out.
  • And you knew you didn't have anybody
  • in your family like that.
  • No one on your street was like that.
  • Those people were over there somewhere.
  • So it was very easy to discriminate against them.
  • You didn't know any of them.
  • But once people started coming out,
  • suddenly, it's the guy at the grocery store, you know.
  • It's the neighbor downstairs with her woman friend
  • who you thought was just a friend and their two children.
  • You know, it's a real person.
  • Oh, and it's now it's my child, or my brother, or my cousin.
  • You know-- and we look normal.
  • And, suddenly, it's not just them.
  • It's us.
  • And that broke down all the doors.
  • And the right wing tried the same thing with marriage.
  • As long as none of us could get married, it was so easy to say,
  • if they get married all these bad things will happen.
  • OK?
  • Of course, there was nothing to test that.
  • So it was easy for people to continue to believe that.
  • Once people started getting married,
  • once the dam was broken, suddenly, well, no, the world
  • didn't end.
  • Everything is still normal.
  • Everything's still fine.
  • Nothing bad happened.
  • And so you've seen an incredible rise
  • in the number of people supporting marriage equality.
  • So coming out in every way has been the salvation
  • of the GLBT community.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Looking back over your years here
  • in Rochester and your years away from Rochester, what
  • are you most proud of, Bob?
  • BOB DARDANO: Well, I'm proud of some of the things
  • that I've been able to do for the community.
  • I worked hard here in Rochester.
  • I worked hard on the '83 effort to get that ordinance passed.
  • I did win the Vinnie Cup in 1984.
  • So I do have a nice little trophy,
  • which was a great honor to get.
  • Having that success in '83 made me
  • think that it was going to be easy to move on
  • to the next step.
  • And it certainly was not. because The Monroe County
  • legislature was not in any way interested in passing
  • the same kind of ordinance or nondiscrimination legislation.
  • Then, you know, Tim's campaign in '85
  • was a real high point for everybody.
  • There was something in one of these articles
  • recently the first gay man elected
  • in New York state or whatever.
  • But it was really more than that.
  • You know, we think he was the first gay person
  • to win election to an at-large seat.
  • You know, Harvey Milk in San Francisco
  • had tried a few times to win election
  • to the county board of supervisors
  • when they were all elected at-large.
  • And he was unable to win.
  • After they changed the rules and created districts,
  • that's when he won.
  • He was able to win that Castro neighborhood district.
  • So yeah.
  • He was in office before, but it was a district office.
  • Tim may well have been the first person
  • to be elected as an at-large candidate anywhere.
  • So that was a big deal.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: That was major.
  • BOB DARDANO: Yeah.
  • And then the following year in '86,
  • I worked on Louise Slaughter's first campaign for Congress
  • when she was challenging that incumbent Fred Eckert.
  • And I was 26th LD coordinator for her campaign.
  • She won fifty-one- forty-nine.
  • So, of course, I take all the credit for that.
  • So those were highlights.
  • I loved working on The Empty Closet.
  • I liked writing my column.
  • I liked the news reporting aspect of it in Washington.
  • Well, back in the '90s, I was officer
  • of two of the major political organizations
  • there, Gertrude Stein Democratic Club, Gay and Lesbian Activist
  • Alliance, which is nonpartisan.
  • So I'm proud of that.
  • And, perhaps, most proud in D.C.,
  • that I was one of the founders of our GLBT employees group
  • at work, which is the Library of Congress Gay, Lesbian,
  • or Bisexual Employees Organization.
  • So that's LC GLOBE.
  • We chose the name to sort of be affiliated with the Federal
  • Globe.
  • Which, as you may know, is an umbrella group
  • for all of the federal government agencies
  • organizations, which are all like little globes.
  • There's transportation globe and all of this.
  • Department of Interior and whatever.
  • So we established LC GLOBE in 1994.
  • When I got to the Library of Congress,
  • I was shocked that with all of the obviously gay and lesbian
  • people there not only was there no organization,
  • but everyone was very quiet about that.
  • I recall reading the Washington Blade at my desk
  • on two separate occasions where two older more closeted gay men
  • came by.
  • And I remember one of them saying, he looked at me
  • and he looked at the paper and he said, "my, aren't we bold."
  • (Bailey laughs) And he sort of walked off.
  • Because they weren't out.
  • I mean, they were obvious.
  • Anybody who knew any gay people would
  • know that these guys were gay.
  • So I had two people react to me that way.
  • And I thought, well, how can there not be an organization.
  • So I put out a call for people to get together.
  • And I was shocked went over 100 people showed up.
  • There was this pent up need to have
  • a place where everybody could be together and talk about that.
  • So that was '94.
  • So we're almost twenty years there.
  • I've been chairperson of that group five times
  • over the years.
  • So, you know, we've had some great speakers and events
  • and all that stuff that comes with an organization like that.
  • So yeah, I'm very proud of having done that.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: That's incredible.
  • I had no idea.
  • BOB DARDANO: Oh, well there you go.
  • Well that's not in Shoulders To Stand On because that
  • happened after I left. (laughs)
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Well, but more and more, Rochester and the Gay
  • Alliance have been training grounds for political activists
  • and people who became involved in activism
  • within their own sphere of influence.
  • I mean, so in many ways what you went through here
  • and what you did here and what you
  • experienced laid the foundation for what you would do later.
  • BOB DARDANO: That's true.
  • And there was one major disappointment
  • in making that move and transition.
  • Yes, I continued with the gay activism stuff.
  • I went to D.C. thinking, well, I was
  • going to continue the Democratic Party activity and activism
  • that I had here.
  • And I found that it's totally different.
  • It's a totally different structure.
  • They do have Ward organizations.
  • They have no power.
  • You know, I came here from a place
  • where those LDs chose the candidates, you know.
  • And the 26th LD meeting when Tim first ran
  • was his key to winning that nomination
  • and getting on the ballot and then being elected.
  • Because we were the second ones to meet.
  • He had gone to the 27th beforehand.
  • That was in Charlotte.
  • That was the most conservative Democratic group in the city.
  • And somebody asked him that she had
  • read that he was the editor of The Empty Closet at one point.
  • And she asked him point blank, "are you gay?"
  • I mean, how did anybody not know,
  • but she asked, "are you gay?"
  • Well, do you believe he wasn't prepared for that question.
  • He wasn't prepared for that direct are you gay question.
  • And he fumbled over the answer, and it sounded defensive,
  • and it was bad.
  • And he did not get the votes.
  • And after that, we decided that's not going
  • to happen again, you know.
  • You are going to diffuse that by bringing it
  • up yourself in the presentation that you make before people
  • start asking questions.
  • And so he did at 26th LD, which was I think the second most
  • conservative group.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
  • BOB DARDANO: But he got the endorsement of that LD.
  • And, in fact, one woman said that she was voting for him
  • because if he was honest about that,
  • he'll be honest about everything.
  • So that was quite a lesson.
  • So I went to D.C. And these ward organizations
  • don't do anything like that.
  • They don't have any power like that.
  • It's all very cliquish and very personality driven.
  • And, in fact, it's kind of a lesson
  • for what happens when you get what you think you want,
  • which is an all democratic city.
  • You think, oh, wow.
  • Wouldn't that be great?
  • No Republicans, you know.
  • But no.
  • Then you have no reason to organize.
  • You have no reason to register voters.
  • You have no reason to sort of winnow out candidates.
  • And D.C. being such a unique jurisdiction without statehood,
  • with very few political offices, it's
  • a place where people really believe
  • that, oh, if anybody wants to run,
  • they should be able to run.
  • Here you can only sign one petition
  • when someone is nominated.
  • In D.C., you can sign as many as you want.
  • Let 1,000 flowers bloom.
  • Let there be twenty-five people on the ballot.
  • Because we don't have full representation.
  • This is our way of having democracy, you know.
  • So it's a totally different thing.
  • I never was comfortable with that.
  • There's a lot of, when I got there especially, you know,
  • it was so much racial tension, you know,
  • and just so many different interest
  • groups that were part of that.
  • And I just found it frustrating, and just
  • couldn't really deal with that.
  • So I sort of focused on the gay stuff when I was there.
  • And, you know, as you know very well,
  • just because I left Rochester doesn't mean
  • I wasn't interested.
  • I still get The Empty Closet in the mail,
  • and I kept every issue for all those years.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And we're very grateful you did.
  • BOB DARDANO: Yeah.
  • And you know I'm a librarian turned out.
  • It wasn't what I thought I was going to be,
  • but, that's what I've been for the last twenty-six years
  • and a pack rat.
  • And I think the two go together-- (laughter)
  • EVELYN BAILEY: I agree.
  • BOB DARDANO: --in large measure.
  • And I always kept all those issues of the EC year
  • after year after year thinking, well,
  • someone somewhere will want them.
  • See, the Library of Congress did not collect the EC.
  • It was not a title that they collected.
  • And when the anniversary came up,
  • when you digitized everything, and put it
  • on that wonderful little flash drive, by then
  • we had a gay and lesbian studies specialist.
  • So I convinced her that we want the EC
  • in the Library of Congress.
  • So we kept, thanks to Sue Cowell who
  • was executive director at the time, sort of
  • gave us permission as a gift to use my flash
  • drive to make copies of all of those digital issues.
  • So that now that they're in the Library of Congress as well.
  • But I kept all those paper issues
  • thinking some library somewhere is going to want them.
  • But once you came up with the flash drive,
  • I thought well nobody's going to want the paper anymore.
  • You've got two inches of flash drive with, you know,
  • forty years of newspaper.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: The Smithsonian wants paper.
  • BOB DARDANO: They do?
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
  • BOB DARDANO: Really?
  • EVELYN BAILEY: We have sent them all of the extra copies that we
  • have of Empty Closets.
  • And their collection is not complete
  • as our collection is not totally complete.
  • But they wanted paper.
  • I offered a flash drive.
  • They did not want a flash drive.
  • BOB DARDANO: Well, for librarians,
  • at least for the Library of Congress,
  • you know, the archival format is still paper or microform.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Well, and this is microfilm.
  • BOB DARDANO: OK.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: There are three copies.
  • One to Cornell, one to the U of R, and one
  • for the Gay Alliance.
  • BOB DARDANO: Right.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And I've just kind of signed, sealed,
  • and delivered an agreement with the University of Rochester
  • rare books and manuscripts department.
  • Every five years, they will microfilm the digitized copies.
  • Because that is still the most--
  • BOB DARDANO: That's the archival format.
  • Because we don't know how long digital media will last.
  • The technology changes.
  • You know, every time you turn around,
  • there's some new technology.
  • At work I like to say, you know, we
  • don't know if digital media will last 500 years.
  • We know that paper will last 500 years.
  • And we won't know if digital media will last 500 years
  • until 500 years from now.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
  • BOB DARDANO: And, of course, the technology
  • will be completely different even ten or twenty
  • years from now, if that.
  • Already we have computers that won't play floppy disks.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: I know.
  • BOB DARDANO: So if you didn't save the information
  • or don't have a way to transfer it, you know, it's lost.
  • So your Shoulders To Stand On email looking for ECs,
  • well, my first reaction was, well,
  • what did you do with them all?
  • Why didn't you keep them all?
  • I couldn't believe that you were missing so many issues
  • or that you needed extra copies of so many issues.
  • Maybe you did have one or two but you wanted more.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Let me end this and say,
  • I'm very, very grateful that you came to Rochester,
  • and we had this chance to talk.
  • And get you recorded on digital media
  • to get your thoughts in, to really say thank you
  • for all you've done, not only here in Rochester
  • but in D.C. with your Library of Congress LGBT interest group.
  • This will be a part of the audio portion of the website
  • when it gets developed.
  • And I'll send this to Kevin.
  • And Let me thank you, Bob.
  • I'm going to turn this off.