Audio Interview, Bob Day, March 30, 2012
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Evelyn has explained most of this to you.
- This whole history and documentary project
- is being done in different phases.
- One phase was the digitization of The Empty Closet,
- which is done.
- One phase is the oral histories that Evelyn is doing.
- That's what she's going to record you
- on this little digital recorder here while we talk.
- And then eventually the film documentary phase,
- which is what I'm helping her work on.
- So this is also my chance to get to know you and know
- what your story is so that eventually when
- we go to start filming and such, I might say to you,
- oh, Bob, we really need to do an on-camera interview with you.
- But we won't be starting cold.
- I'll know exactly what I will want to ask of you on camera.
- BOB DAY: OK.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And as I mentioned in my email,
- we're not looking for names of people or things like that.
- But we are--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Unless you want to share.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Unless you want to share.
- We are interested in places, because a lot--
- we've got a lot of places that people have mentioned
- to us that were in existence, like the Mango Bar
- and the Mango Hotel or something--
- BOB DAY: Manger.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Manger.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Mangan.
- Well, anyway.
- And so we need to have some verification from other people
- that these places did, in fact, exist
- and that they were catered to gay men and so forth.
- So the whatever your mind can pull out in terms of places
- and locations and bar owners and things like that or whatever is
- what we're--
- BOB DAY: Try and reference, though.
- There's one that I'd forgotten completely
- and I just can remember going there.
- But well, where do we start?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Are we recording yet?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
- Well, let's just first start about your--
- we won't talk about places yet.
- Talk to me when you first came to terms
- with your sexual identity.
- And talk to me about that time period.
- Was that here in Rochester?
- BOB DAY: No.
- I think really children already know what their feelings are
- and what they're attracted to and things like that.
- So I always knew as a child.
- And different-- and I don't know if I was effeminate or not,
- but I was delicate, to put it that way.
- I didn't like to play baseball.
- I was frightened of baseball and stuff.
- And of course, I was always the last one chosen on the team.
- And so you go through childhood.
- And then where do you get your sex education?
- My parents didn't set us down and tell a whole lot of stuff.
- You'll eventually find out about the birds and bees on your own.
- And this is the way they were coming up in the--
- I was born in 1934, so the early '40s.
- But the older children, my older brother, he
- started getting these books about sexology.
- I guess that was the name of it--
- Sexology-- that had all the stuff.
- I didn't identify it when I saw the word homosexual
- and stuff like that.
- Then I started reading what happens and what was--
- I guess it was about Kinsey's time
- when he was coming up with some of his things and what not.
- And sometimes they were talking about it's
- a phase that people go through, some boys when
- they're going through.
- And then they monkey around and circle jerks
- or whatever you want to call it.
- Then they find girls and then they move on.
- So I waited for the stage to move, but I never moved on,
- and things like that.
- Then you start hearing about these strange people and queer
- people and started identifying with that and stuff like that.
- And then I was sort of active in high school.
- And--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Was that here in Rochester?
- BOB DAY: No.
- It was in Bloomfield.
- When I came to Rochester, the ones
- in the life, or the gay ones, would say,
- well, you can take the girl out of the country,
- but you can't take the country out of the girl.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: This is Bloomfield, New York, right?
- BOB DAY: Yes.
- Yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- BOB DAY: And so, you know, where'd you get your education?
- Out behind the barn?
- (Laughs) out behind the barn type of thing.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
- That's true.
- BOB DAY: Like that.
- And so I was sort of secret and closeted.
- And I wouldn't say on the down low,
- but you could call it on the down low.
- And then when I got to Rochester and went
- to school, that's when the closeted part started really
- getting in 'cause I didn't want classmates knowing and whatnot.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Roughly what year are were talking?
- BOB DAY: We're talking 1952.
- Yeah.
- Evelyn, you probably can help me with this too,
- because there was such a thing as in schools, parentis--
- proprietor or something, or the school, the college
- could be in lieu of your parent.
- And they could discipline you like your parent would do.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
- BOB DAY: I don't know what the terminology.
- I guess it's not--
- EVELYN BAILEY: It's not parental rights.
- But they take over some form of guardianship
- where they can get health care for you if it's emergency.
- And they could.
- Today, all of that's done by medical card
- and all of that stuff, which they didn't have back then.
- BOB DAY: Yeah.
- But they also thought if you were gay or something
- too, try to discipline you and tell your parents and da da da
- da da and try to correct it and all that other type of stuff.
- EVELYN BAILEY: This was in college?
- BOB DAY: Yeah.
- The college-- since they had that parental type
- of right type of thing.
- And so you didn't want the college
- to know that you're gay type of thing, too.
- And you sort of kept that hidden.
- And so being at RIT, it was, what, downtown.
- And the kids I was in school with would go to Dimey Day
- bars down on the corner of Washington and Main
- Street or D'Apriles Grill up on Fitzhugh Street, which
- is all torn down and the garage is there and stuff like that.
- And then I was staying with relatives
- over on Morton Street, I didn't have to take the bus.
- But after I get through partying and drinking with those guys,
- I'd go down Main Street and I'd look up and down.
- And if I didn't recognize anybody or anybody
- didn't recognize me, I'd shoot down Front Street.
- And that was it.
- And but then the other part, the (unintelligible) the separation
- of my life was that part with the classmates down
- on Front Street, or I'd go over in the ghetto--
- it wasn't quite a ghetto, but over on
- Clarissa Street where Pythodd Hall was.
- And so the people over there, I'd present one way
- and present another here and present another in this.
- And then I had some friends--
- there's Herald.
- He grew up in Geneseo.
- And he went away to the service.
- And he was back.
- And he became Bill Johnson's private secretary.
- And then another friend was Bill Bracey, who was older than I--
- the two of us.
- And he had some real wild stories
- about back in the '40s and things when he came out.
- I wish he was still alive, 'cause he passed away in '80.
- So that was that.
- And so the two bars that I remember was on Front Street
- with Ma Martin and Pa Martin and Martha's.
- And then further down was Ottoman's Bar with Peggy--
- Peggy whatever her name was.
- I should remember, if I ever knew.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Ottoman?
- BOB DAY: Yeah, that was her husband.
- And then he passed away.
- And it became the Bizarre Lounge.
- She moved over on State Street and went there.
- I wish I could remember her last name.
- So--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Were these bars-- some of these bars,
- were they strictly gay bars?
- Or were they mixed and it just happened
- to be the gay people mixed in?
- BOB DAY: Yeah.
- From my recollection, Ma Martins was sort of a mixed.
- And I always said what hung out there
- was whores, cut throats and thieves, and gay people
- and stuff like that.
- It was down, you know.
- But mostly at night, during the evening hours, in Mart--
- this is how the story came to me,
- that Martha's was next door.
- Oh I can see that old dusty balloon over the bar, now.
- And one night Ma Martins got so full that some of the guys
- went next door considering it was empty.
- So the street is sort of empty.
- And old Dick, who was sort of a big time--
- I won't call him a gangster.
- I don't know.
- But Dick Gruttadauria or something like that--
- some other parts.
- You're shaking your head.
- You probably concur on that story.
- But anyhow, he come in the next day to check to receipts
- and said, "Where'd all this money come from?"
- She said, "All those gay people came over here last night
- from next door."
- And so that became very gay friendly right away
- with the suits.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And that was Dick's 43.
- BOB DAY: Well, it wasn't 43 then.
- It was just Dick's then.
- Then it moved to 43 Stone Street, Union Street,
- or wherever they went.
- But that was-- they had two of them,
- 'cause they moved up to where (Unintelligible) was
- or something before they went to Stone Street.
- And so there's sort of class consciousness about it,
- I think, a little bit.
- The ones that were at Martin were street wise,
- sort of down and out.
- I wouldn't call them down and out.
- I hate to generalize.
- But there are people in there named like China Clipper
- and all these other things.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Less desirable?
- BOB DAY: (Laughs) Well, they were there.
- Yeah.
- Yeah.
- And more hardcore.
- I'd say heavy drinkers and hustlers
- and all that type of stuff.
- And over at Martha's Bar, it was the (unintelligible) ones,
- the Pat Boone show, saddle oxfords
- and bow ties and blazers and other things like that.
- And then down at Peggy's Ottoman on the other side,
- I don't know.
- They probably-- what do I want to call them?
- A mixture of heterosexual and homosexual, but kinky hetero
- type of thing so to speak too.
- So that was it.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: What was your favorite?
- Did you have one?
- Not favorite, maybe just a regular--
- BOB DAY: I think I preferred Martins, Ma Martin.
- Sophie Martin was a little lady in what Bill always says,
- wait until New Year's Eve.
- And she'd always have this beaded dress
- on and these old dirty diamonds all over
- like they'd never been-- in a big mansion on East Avenue.
- And I think they had a bar before that on Main Street,
- some sort of--
- EVELYN BAILEY: But she--
- BOB DAY: --box type of thing.
- Yeah.
- And her husband was a whiskey runner way back in--
- so just getting into prohibition.
- Boy, I didn't think I--
- do I overlap prohibition?
- No--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, this would be after.
- BOB DAY: Yeah.
- Just a little bit after.
- Yeah.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, in the '50s,
- it would be about thirty years after.
- BOB DAY: Yeah.
- OK.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Twenty, no twenty-five--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Twenty, twenty-five years.
- BOB DAY: The roaring '20s, yeah.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: '20s, yeah.
- BOB DAY: And so--
- oh yeah, before I hit the streets, that would be that.
- But that was over in the mid '20s
- and I was born in the mid '30s.
- So just ten years from that stuff.
- And it was all--
- and (unintelligible) I guess whatever it was,
- and then the whiskey went in.
- But I liked that bar, because now I'm
- getting into my psychological makeup.
- When-- what is it--
- internalized homophobia and internalized racism and stuff
- like that, to build myself up, it was like, well,
- I'll go down where I can feel superior to some
- of these other people, because I was a little Joe college
- boy, something like that, and what have you.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Well that was my next question.
- I wanted to get into your experience in the 1950s.
- Not only were you a man of color,
- but you were a gay man of color.
- What was that experience like for you?
- And, like you said, you mentioned kind
- of living a double life, but--
- BOB DAY: It was terrible.
- I had a whole lot of resentment which
- I internalized that turned to anger and sort of self
- destructed.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: But, now was it resentment
- because of your sexuality?
- Or resentment of your skin color?
- BOB DAY: Everything.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: It was everything?
- BOB DAY: It was society, the United States in general.
- And there's oppression, because it was in the '60s.
- And this is after I'd gotten out of the service
- and came back and the riots in Rochester and stuff like that.
- And that sort of turned things around and got people
- thinking a little bit.
- But there was that stuff.
- My first significant other was a white fellow.
- And I had these very romantic ideas too.
- And so he was an officer and a gentleman.
- And he worked at General Dynamics as an engineer.
- And so I was going to volunteer for the service and come back,
- and we were going to live together.
- But it never panned out or anything like that.
- But I met him--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I don't want to rush over this.
- OK, you've got a white significant other.
- Caucasian.
- When you guys walked into one of these bars together,
- did you get a lot of looks?
- Did you get any comments?
- BOB DAY: No because when we went out to a gay spot,
- we went there.
- There was some-- it's sort of blurred
- and I can't separate the sequence.
- But we'd gone to Canada one time and it
- was okay in Toronto and stuff.
- But one time we were in Montreal.
- And we were dancing or something and got some racist things,
- because I guess the riots were going on in Birmingham.
- And some of those French-Canadians
- who don't like English speakers anyhow
- said, "Why don't you all go back to Birmingham?"
- So I was getting that stuff.
- And in the city, when we got ready to get an apartment,
- he had one.
- And when he said he's going to have a black roommate,
- well he won't have him here and this and that.
- And he was up on Park Avenue.
- It amazes me today when I see how many people
- are renting apartments.
- But, so he couldn't have one there.
- And so we went looking for an apartment.
- And there always-- when we'd show up there,
- they would say the apartment's taken.
- Well, they said that because it was
- two men that wanted an apartment together
- and it's only a one bedroom or he's saying it because of this.
- But except we found one on South Avenue and Comfort Street
- near Francisco's grocery store, mom and pop grocery store.
- And she was taking information.
- You both work?
- Where do you work?
- General Dynamics and I was working
- at St. John Fisher at the time.
- And--
- EVELYN BAILEY: You were working where?
- BOB DAY: St. John Fisher.
- I was in food service there.
- And she said, "Oh, you're feeding the priest?"
- I think that's sort of when we got the apartment
- or something like that.
- And--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yes, if you were feeding the priest,
- you absolutely had to be blessed by God.
- (Laughter)
- BOB DAY: Yes.
- But that was the beginning of the end of the--
- yeah.
- And there was a time--
- he was in the service, and he had
- duty in Ohio, Columbus, or at Wright-Patterson
- Air Base, Dayton, which is close by.
- And so I was in service and I was at Fort Bragg.
- And he came down to visit me.
- And I asked the sergeant where is the black motel?
- Because he could be accepted to black motels,
- but I couldn't darken the door of the white one.
- So we spent there.
- And then we went back to Columbus where he was.
- And then he was going to bring me back home.
- And so we got to Columbus.
- And he'd been going to a gay bar in Columbus all the time.
- And it was sort of secretive thing.
- And so when he knocked on the door
- and they looked out and saw me, "Oh, this is a private club."
- And he'd been going there for months.
- And it got private real fast.
- So this is one of the things that was going on.
- Then we got to Warren, Ohio, his hometown.
- And we were in this bar.
- He said, "This is a bar and sort of some timey--
- some action around there."
- So we went in there.
- And I come back and he was agitated--
- I had to go to the restroom.
- I come back, and he was agitated.
- "Finish that, get up, and we go.
- Let's go.
- Let's go."
- And I said, "What?
- I'm having fun sitting here looking at these hillbillies
- from West Virginia."
- They looked just as--
- And then, anyhow, he says real stern, "Let's go."
- I'd never seen him do it like that.
- And we went out.
- And I heard the woman say, "Break up the glasses."
- And I could hear the glass, what I was drinking out of,
- crash against the wall.
- And I said, "What's going on?"
- And they said, "Well, they didn't know what you were.
- They asked if you were--
- what you were.
- And I told them that you are negro."
- I guess that's what we were at the time.
- They couldn't tell if you were Mexican or whatever
- at that time.
- But I was young and pretty.
- So they didn't know what I was, but when you said negro,
- they knew that's the way they should act.
- That was the type of thing that went on.
- So that was what it was like in the service about that time.
- But then the riots came and things
- started changing and civil rights
- and all that other stuff.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So in this time period,
- either here in Rochester or in Ohio, in the service,
- were you feeling more oppression because of your skin color
- than you were being identified as a gay man?
- BOB DAY: I--
- OK.
- Your friend Lee.
- Do you remember Lee and her--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Lee Andrews?
- BOB DAY: Evelyn and I--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- BOB DAY: We have a little history of our own going on.
- EVELYN BAILEY: I remember Lee.
- BOB DAY: Didn't I have some good friends?
- Lee and Michael--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Well, you--
- BOB DAY: Evelyn's going to tell me,
- "Don't you bring any more of your friends around me
- anymore."
- EVELYN BAILEY: You never lacked for variety and uniqueness.
- BOB DAY: But anyhow, Lee told me one time
- and somebody asked a friend of her's, what do you have--
- like your question.
- What was more problematic, being black or gay?
- And she said, "Well, I never had to tell my mother I was black."
- And this is it.
- It's harder to tell, because you can cover up
- the gayness so much that you don't feel the discrimination.
- It's more internalized.
- You know, I don't want to wiggle down the street.
- And I don't want to do, "Hey, Mary,"
- and all that other stuff.
- So you carry yourself different.
- And other people, they don't know.
- And they'll tell-- at work if you're
- in the closet or something, you can
- listen to a whole lot of gay jokes and stuff like that.
- You don't hear too many racist jokes when you're around,
- unless you stepped somebody over or something like that.
- So I'd say it's more problematic with the racial part.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- I was going to say today it would not be kosher for either.
- But being black you can't hide, unless you go into a bakery
- and become covered in flour and--
- but being gay is not something that's outwardly observant.
- BOB DAY: And that's your real-- what do you say-- fem, or what?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- BOB DAY: Or what's Carson--
- Carl-- I have some bias towards that.
- When I'm watching Good Morning America,
- I know you probably wouldn't, but he comes on.
- And I can't stand him.
- He's so, da na na na.
- I said, get a backbone type of--
- and he was here, I guess, where--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Who is this?
- BOB DAY: Carson whatever his name is.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Oh, Carson Daly?
- BOB DAY: Yeah.
- Something for the gay guy, the straight guy or something
- like that.
- And so when I see those fun things--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: You mentioned in the interview
- that you were talking with Bruce Woolley at one point.
- You seem to remember a bar called the Rustic?
- BOB DAY: Yeah.
- This is one that I don't remember it,
- but my friend Bill remembered it.
- And he was talking about drag shows that were there.
- And people would come from Buffalo.
- And they'd all get busted and had
- to be running down the street and breaking their heels and--
- high heels and stuff like that, which
- brings to mind another thing like Martins
- down there on Front Street.
- Every time there was an election year,
- the police were going to get tough on crime and faggots
- and clean up the city.
- They'd come in there and start arresting people.
- And it was like--
- EVELYN BAILEY: For what?
- BOB DAY: Like Stonewall--
- pre-Stonewall.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Oh, raids.
- BOB DAY: Yeah, raids type of thing.
- Now, we haven't had a raid on a gay bar here
- in the city since--
- EVELYN BAILEY: No.
- Not in a long time.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Were you at a bar when it was raided?
- BOB DAY: No.
- But when the police come in and all that other stuff,
- it's you sort of managed the behavior.
- And you'd get that tension.
- And they'd look around like they smelled shit or something.
- And they weren't our friends.
- And we didn't have a liaison or any of those other things
- then that we fought for.
- So you felt very intimidated, type of thing.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Go back a ways, Bob, to the service.
- When you were at Fort Bragg or when you enlisted,
- and it wasn't voluntary.
- You had--
- BOB DAY: It was.
- It was.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Oh, it--
- BOB DAY: But there was like an eight-year obligation
- type of thing.
- It was before the draft came up.
- But with the draft, you don't know when you're going to go.
- But I wanted to synchronize with Richard's when he
- was going for his active duty--
- his active duty.
- And then he'd get out in so many years, because he was
- ROTC or something like that.
- So I wanted to coincide that when
- we'd be out of the service, not have
- that obligation all at once.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And so were you and this friend friends
- before you entered the service?
- BOB DAY: Yeah.
- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
- That's one of the reasons why I volunteered
- to go so I could get back.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And at Fort Bragg--
- that's where you were deployed?
- That's where you were sent?
- BOB DAY: Yeah, for basic training.
- Yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And did you ever go overseas?
- BOB DAY: Yeah.
- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
- I went to Germany, Stuttgart.
- EVELYN BAILEY: How was that?
- I mean--
- BOB DAY: Oh, it was a ball.
- EVELYN BAILEY: --were you out?
- BOB DAY: (Laughing) It's a bunch of flaming faggots.
- It was.
- First of all, I went to a line outfit that was--
- an artillery outfit that was out there in the field.
- And then they came request because of my culinary skills
- and knowledge and stuff.
- The commanding officer said, "There's
- a job at the general's mess at Seventh Army
- headquarters in Stuttgart.
- Would you like to go down there and apply for that?"
- And so I got a transfer.
- Well, I got to Seventh Army headquarters,
- and the Seventh Army symphony band was there.
- That's some of the first-- (laughs) and Seventh Avenue
- road show with all the theatrical ones
- there, and then the Ann Southern ones, the favorite secretaries
- that were all up in the different offices and what not.
- And there was a gay bar in Stuttgart, the (unintelligible)
- and all that stuff.
- And so we just running down there all the time
- and what not.
- So that was a good gay time.
- But gay friends and we'd go off to Zurich for weekends, Zurich,
- Switzerland, and take vacations down to Cannes
- on the French Riviera.
- So that was it.
- And this is humorous because Seventh Army,
- their patch was a triangle and it was purple.
- And there's seven steps to heaven and seven steps to hell.
- So it was purple and gold and red.
- So you came into base, and there was this big flower
- bed with all these different pansies in here.
- And so they had a big purge (laughter)
- from all of these faggots out there.
- They had the commanding general call the guard.
- He said, "And that pansy bed has got to go too."
- And they said many recall--
- somebody had written on the shit house wall, many were called
- and many went.
- So that was-- they said, that pansy bed's got to go, too.
- So there was stuff that was going on in the service
- and stuff like that.
- And it's taken us all these years, all of this
- until now, to don't ask and don't tell.
- And this was about '55, '56, '57, around into there.
- EVELYN BAILEY: But you never felt discriminated against
- or oppressed--
- BOB DAY: No, not in the service, because--
- EVELYN BAILEY: In the service.
- BOB DAY: --the color line was--
- yeah.
- And even in North Carolina, I was in Fort Bragg,
- the white sergeant.
- They'd have black master sergeant.
- Hey, Sergeant.
- You went along, but if you step off that base,
- it was another thing.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Story in North Carolina.
- BOB DAY: Yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Not so in Europe.
- BOB DAY: No.
- No, it was not so in Europe at all.
- No.
- And as a matter of fact, there was
- five of us that were African American
- and we all hung together.
- And this one friend, she was a secretary, but a musician,
- played the piano.
- And she had an old Packard car, great big old Packard.
- And we'd all pile into this Packard car and get going.
- Sputnik went up and then we named the car Sputnik.
- So that will tell you the timeframe when we were out.
- And when we'd get to the gay bar,
- they were sort of fascinated with the black soldiers.
- It was sort of a different type of thing.
- And I remember seeing in Stuttgart, there goes my--
- black entertainer with a big ponytail.
- She went to Paris and she danced with the bananas and all
- that other stuff.
- No?
- You don't remember her?
- EVELYN BAILEY: No.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, I know who you're talking about.
- BOB DAY: Josephine Baker.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Josephine Bacon?
- BOB DAY: Yeah.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Because she kinda got ousted from America,
- so she went to Paris.
- BOB DAY: Yeah.
- Yeah.
- But then her last song, she sang--
- and I could hear it in her voice now she was singing,
- "I'll be coming home.
- Wait for me."
- And I could hear that longing that she'd like
- to come back home to America.
- But it still wasn't--
- and that was in the late '50s and stuff like that.
- But I do remember that.
- But it was that how she was welcomed in Europe and in Paris
- and things like that.
- You could feel that difference there.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So how did you do then when you
- had to come back to Rochester?
- BOB DAY: Oh, Rochester when I got back
- here was sort of a depression like we're in now.
- And I'd gotten back from Germany where things were building up,
- and comrades were getting little Volkswagens.
- You could feel prosperity in the air.
- But when you came back here, it was sort of depressed
- and things like that.
- Yeah.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: What year did you come back?
- BOB DAY: '59, yeah, just before '60.
- Yeah.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So did you find it a changed city then?
- Particularly in regards to the gay community,
- did you find it changed?
- BOB DAY: Well see, I was in a relationship, so I didn't--
- I wasn't in the whatchamacallit.
- EVELYN BAILEY: You weren't out and about.
- BOB DAY: Yeah.
- Yeah.
- But there was sort of a little line down through there.
- You don't get invited to the parties
- afterwards and things like that.
- You sort of feel left out.
- You could meet socially and things would be social.
- But you take that to that intimate level sometimes,
- socially intimate, like when you get together for parties.
- Maybe I wasn't gregarious enough or something,
- or maybe I was so internal--
- frightened, fear, and stuff like that.
- So I didn't push out with a big personality type of thing.
- EVELYN BAILEY: So socially you did things, went to the bars
- and went out and got to know people.
- But you then weren't included in people's inner circles.
- Yet, out there at the bar or out there wherever--
- BOB DAY: And this is the thing too.
- Then you have to start talking about sexual encounters, too,
- and how that stuff plays out, too.
- And you probably heard about people
- who would go with black people and they'd be dinge queens.
- Or if they liked Chinese people, they'd
- be rice queens or something.
- And so there was that sort of thing going on, too.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Had Front Street changed?
- Or was there no more Front Street?
- BOB DAY: Oh, Front Street changed with urban renewal.
- And I can't remember when that went, because Main Street used
- to have stores all across there, and they tore those down
- and made the bridge and stuff.
- And Front Street went down with it, too,
- and then all of a sudden the buildings and the hotels
- and all that.
- And I can't remember when that exactly happened.
- But I know Ma and Pa Martin there, they'd passed away.
- They were elderly.
- And that's when Dick's Tavern moved up to Stone Street--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Stone Street.
- BOB DAY: --and what not like that.
- So exactly when that happened, I don't know.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And that's when it became Dick's 43--
- BOB DAY: Yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: --because it was 43 Stone Street.
- BOB DAY: Stone Street.
- Yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: OK.
- BOB DAY: And then they went to South Avenue,
- and she got murdered over there.
- But that's another thing, too.
- One time she had her little friends around there,
- the little white boys-- excuse me.
- (Laughter) Could do all their little deals.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: You know what, they would've passed right
- by me unless you-- until you--
- (Laughter)
- --said something about it.
- BOB DAY: Excuse-- but it was a dance bar and stuff.
- And they'd be doing this little fish thing
- and holding each other close and wiggling and stuff.
- And Bill and I were-- and this friend
- of mine that knew the Rustic owner.
- And his mother used to have these old rent parties
- and stuff to raise money for the rent
- and stuff and (unintelligible) and the old blues and all that.
- And so we were in Martha's when this song came on.
- And he come up, "Let's dance!"
- And he got me out there on the floor.
- And he was doing this old nasty boogie, old buck dance.
- And he had Martha, "Stop that dancing!"
- And so she singled us out because our dance style
- wasn't the same as the cute little slim, hip white boys.
- "Stop that dancing!
- Have you no shame?"
- EVELYN BAILEY: She said that?
- BOB DAY: She said that.
- When I heard she died, I grinned.
- Oh.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Wow.
- BOB DAY: But she did--
- (interposing voices)
- BOB DAY: --she tried to abuse the gay guys, too.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Well let me ask you that,
- because you're not the first person
- to tell us that Martha really wasn't a very nice person.
- BOB DAY: No.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So why did they patronize her bar?
- BOB DAY: Because it was the only game in town,
- the only show in town, that type of thing.
- That's it.
- My second lover was older than I by fifteen years.
- And he was Jewish.
- And I'm not saying he was tight, but he was cool with his money.
- So I wanted to go to Martha's and everything.
- So we went in and we ordered some Manhattans.
- And she charged some astronomical price,
- like $1.75 or something like that.
- And he was out and done.
- And so I took the two Martini glasses.
- And she raised them.
- "You come back with my glasses."
- When I went back the next time, she's mad at me
- and she probably won't let me back
- in there again or something.
- So he mailed them back.
- And he says, "Well the price of those drinks,
- I thought that included the glass, too."
- But then too-- this could go in here.
- It's sort of-- well, I'm getting out of date,
- when I got back from service, the first romance broke up.
- And Richard had gone to New York and met some other black fellow
- and what not.
- And let's say I was drinking heavily.
- And Bill and Harold and I--
- my mother told my father to let me have the car
- 'cause I was moping around the house.
- And we went drinking.
- And I don't know, we were at the Treadway Inn and stuff.
- And then we were going down Main Street into Martha's at the 43.
- And I hit a car and dented it and had this little accident
- type of thing.
- But that time when I wasn't driving and was healing up
- over this breakup and all like that,
- I'd gone to a concert at the Eastman Theatre.
- And across the street was the old town and country
- thing, which was sort of--
- you probably have heard of this.
- Now that was really pissing on--
- excuse my French.
- But that was a group with Holly Ward and Ted Holland back
- and Shoemaker and his lover and all like that.
- So it was all quiet underneath the table.
- So I met this Melton in there.
- And then we started.
- And that was about eighteen years.
- Was it monogamous and high fidelity?
- No.
- But it was a lasting thing that went on.
- And so--
- EVELYN BAILEY: So how many relationships have you had?
- BOB DAY: Two.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Two.
- OK.
- BOB DAY: And a half.
- EVELYN BAILEY: We're not going to the half.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: We've all had the half.
- BOB DAY: That was it.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Put enough halves together
- to make a couple wholes.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And all in Rochester?
- I mean--
- BOB DAY: No.
- The half was out of Rochester.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Oh, yes.
- But--
- BOB DAY: It was a little Swiss one
- I had on the side when I there.
- EVELYN BAILEY: But when you came back from the service,
- you lived in Rochester?
- BOB DAY: No.
- Oh, yeah.
- When I came back, I lived in Rochester.
- EVELYN BAILEY: You lived in--
- BOB DAY: And then after that-
- EVELYN BAILEY: --Rochester.
- And you worked in Rochester.
- BOB DAY: Yes.
- And then when we broke up, I left the apartment
- and moved back to Bloomfield.
- And I've lived there ever since.
- EVELYN BAILEY: OK.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Just generally talk to me about the 1960s.
- You come back.
- I mean, what was going on?
- What were you finding--
- BOB DAY: I probably wasn't there.
- I-- let me see.
- It is so hard for me to remember exactly.
- The '60s--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: There was the riots in 1964.
- Were you around for them?
- Do you remember-- I mean, obviously you heard about it,
- but--
- BOB DAY: I remember that, too.
- And there was no drinking in Rochester.
- I think one of the things, my first memories, was--
- not memories, but one of the memories
- was coming in on a Saturday at RIT
- down on Broad Street and Plymouth.
- And there's a Navy program.
- There's about eighteen sailors that were there
- to study photography.
- And I had a cook that would come in and cook
- for them on the weekends.
- But I was worried about her and the city was on lockdown.
- And when I drove in, I felt so frightened driving
- into Pittsford and stuff like that,
- because the tension was in the air.
- When I hit the Clarissa Street Bridge, which is now the Ford
- Street Bridge, there's armed soldiers
- with real live ammunition and everything else all drawn.
- And I said I hadn't seen all that even when
- I was in Germany in the army.
- It was more of a war zone here in the city.
- Then I remember the bars were all closed.
- And I was a heavy drinker then.
- And so the first bar across the county line going into--
- and I met a friend, Dale, who's a gay fellow
- that when I was in high school, we didn't like gym.
- And we both were in gym classes.
- And the coach says, well, you can supervise the younger
- group.
- And so Dale and I sat up there on the playground
- and picked daisies or something like that.
- So I met him and went on.
- So that was part of that rioting type of stuff.
- My relationship with Milton was sort of cultured,
- and we were sort of close together.
- And he was very anti-social, because I
- think he felt the Jewish separation a little bit more
- than some others.
- And so one summer we were going to Stratford on Avon.
- We always liked to go up there in Toronto.
- And then I said, "Well, I always wanted
- to go to Mackinac Island in Michigan."
- So we started out and the riots were going.
- And we got as far as Flint.
- And we could hear of all the different cities in Michigan
- going up in smoke.
- And so I said, "We better go back home, back in--"
- So I can remember coming down Hamtramck Avenue or something
- through Detroit to get to the Windsor Bridge.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Oh, good lord.
- BOB DAY: And I had this Mustang convertible with the top down.
- And we're driving-- a white and a black man.
- They had their guns drawn.
- And you could feel the heat from the buildings
- that had burned that was retained heat in there.
- You could feel that come across.
- And of course, I was so frightened, I just, like this.
- I went and put the top up.
- And then we went through the tunnel and then to Windsor
- and it just--
- you could almost feel the difference.
- It was that same difference when I
- came from Pittsburgh coming into Rochester and stuff like that.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I can tell you, going from Detroit into Windsor
- today, it's still the same.
- BOB DAY: Yeah.
- So there was that thing.
- Milton was fifteen years older than I, but I don't think we--
- or maybe I was oblivious to the stares and stuff like that.
- We'd go to restaurants and we'd go swimming over there
- at the Y. Where am I?
- (Unintelligible) would.
- And then we'd go do to a club or restaurant, or 25 Club
- or something--
- 25, I guess it was.
- And the waiter said, "Wow are you fellas today?
- How are you guys today?"
- EVELYN BAILEY: The Clinton Ave.?
- BOB DAY: Yeah, it was just a restaurant type--
- across from Sibley's and stuff like that.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Let me ask you about the RIT dormitory
- on West Main and Plymouth.
- There was a dormitory there?
- BOB DAY: Yeah, it was an old Hotel Rochester.
- But I didn't live in it.
- That was after I'd graduated.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: But I heard rumors
- that that was a pickup place.
- BOB DAY: It may well have been.
- I don't know.
- Eric (unintelligible) can tell stuff
- around down through there too a little bit, I think.
- He's a great resource.
- I wish I could think of that one's name.
- It's gone from me now.
- But they lived down there on Plymouth Avenue
- and made a clean sweep all around too.
- But I don't know.
- I guess I didn't want too much known about who was going on
- and what was going on like that.
- I wasn't that far out.
- And then too, I always worried about being arrested and name
- in the paper and all that other type of stuff.
- So that inhibited a whole lot.
- EVELYN BAILEY: So whether they were gay or straight,
- when you were arrested, your name
- was printed in the newspaper?
- BOB DAY: Very likely, yeah.
- I tell that when I go to Just Us Guys
- and meet over there in that Sears building
- where the Rochester health care-- what is it?
- EVELYN BAILEY: AIDS Care.
- BOB DAY: AIDS Care, yeah, and stuff.
- And I laugh.
- I says, I can remember that there
- used to be a publication, a WE paper in Rochester--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
- BOB DAY: And they had one headline in there, Queers
- at Sears.
- And where they arrested some people in the dressing rooms
- and stuff like that.
- EVELYN BAILEY: I've seen some of those.
- BOB DAY: The exposes and stuff?
- EVELYN BAILEY: The WE.
- Yes.
- BOB DAY: It was supposed to be a big expose thing.
- Yeah.
- So that was the '60s.
- It was mostly Milton and summer vacations and things like that.
- So there wasn't all that much running around.
- But then how did I get to know the Bachelor Forum so much?
- I know Vicki Russo and Burl Smith,
- and Burl and I used to work for the same food service company.
- And she was an Indian lady and wild.
- And I know she came out to John Fisher College
- to help me one Sunday afternoon.
- And it was a feast day.
- And I was getting behind, so she came.
- And she managed a cafeteria down on Main Street,
- one of the buildings.
- So she comes into the kitchen.
- She has a towel over her shoulder.
- And she says, "Have towel, will travel."
- And so we started joking around.
- And I says, "Well, Burl."
- I said, "You know, my people used to be slaves
- and yours are considered wild."
- And she says, "What's changed?
- You're still sweating to death and I'm still wild."
- And then she became bartender at Avenue Pub.
- And then I guess she came from California.
- She used to travel back and forth and then down at--
- what is that--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Tara's?
- BOB DAY: No.
- The one on Main Street that--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Anthony's?
- BOB DAY: Before that.
- EVELYN BAILEY: The Red Carpet?
- BOB DAY: No.
- Bachelor Forum.
- I'll get it.
- EVELYN BAILEY: The Bachelor Forum?
- BOB DAY: It was on Main Street--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Oh, on Main Street.
- Right.
- BOB DAY: --down there--
- EVELYN BAILEY: By Goodman.
- BOB DAY: In Goodman, yeah.
- And she worked in there.
- And--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Was that Burl Smith
- who was at the Avenue Pub?
- BOB DAY: Yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And the Bachelor Forum.
- BOB DAY: I think when Gary first opened--
- maybe she was working there before Gary even
- bought it, come to think.
- It was like a restaurant or something.
- And then Gary bought it and--
- my mind is sort of hazy on that.
- But she did work there for a while.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And then Vicki Russo was at Arnies.
- BOB DAY: Yeah, yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: That's the Bachelor Forum.
- BOB DAY: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
- And then there's the Red Carpet.
- And I don't know.
- I used to make all those rounds there too, but--
- EVELYN BAILEY: The Rathskeller?
- BOB DAY: Oh, yeah.
- Ducky, I met him last summer--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Jim's?
- BOB DAY: Yeah.
- He was back in town.
- Yeah.
- He was the one that barred me out of there.
- So--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Wouldn't let you in his bar, huh?
- BOB DAY: Character-- behavior unbecoming or something
- or other.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Wow.
- BOB DAY: You wouldn't believe I was such a wild man, would you?
- EVELYN BAILEY: I wouldn't.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I'm getting that feeling.
- As we get into the late '60s and into the '70s,
- there was some things happening here in Rochester,
- at the University of Rochester with the Gay Liberation Front
- coming about.
- Did you have any sense of that happening?
- Did you get involved in any of that liberation movement?
- BOB DAY: I had a sense of it.
- And here we go again with names.
- Patty.
- Patty.
- That one came fast.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Patty Evans.
- BOB DAY: Yeah.
- And I knew Patty through a different thing
- and her involvement with that.
- And then I think when I first started getting involved,
- 'cause you were down there at the firehouse down there
- on Monroe Avenue--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Genessee Co-op.
- BOB DAY: Yeah.
- And his name was coming to me almost there,
- because Harlow Russell and the man--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Horace?
- BOB DAY: Horace.
- Yes.
- That's the one that Mike Sullivan was in therapy with.
- And that, and then Tim Mains when he first started
- running and making buttons.
- I never knew how you could make a button to put on like that.
- So I was getting involved in that.
- And then Lee Fisher came around.
- Was that in the '70s or '80s?
- Are we into the '80s now?
- Because you--
- EVELYN BAILEY: No, early '70s.
- BOB DAY: Because he invited me over to your
- and Claire's house.
- And that was more involved with the Alliance.
- But that's moved on from that early part when--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah, that would have been--
- BOB DAY: --they had it down on Main Street.
- EVELYN BAILEY: --'78, '79 when you were--
- when I was with Claire, it was 1978, '79, to '86, '87.
- BOB DAY: Yeah.
- Yeah.
- And were you on Carolina Street or some place?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Meigs.
- Yeah, Meigs.
- BOB DAY: OK.
- And so that was getting involved.
- I don't-- what else?
- It seemed strange, because things have
- changed so much in Rochester.
- And I have gotten more involved maybe
- in the religious community type of thing,
- 'cause I worked with Janie Spahr.
- I was on her That All Might Freely Serve.
- And Lee was in with the board-like people at Calvary
- St. Andrews, I recall.
- But last night, Judy Lee-Haye and I
- were asked to go to the Covenant Methodist Church,
- because they want to be a more welcoming and affirming church.
- And Judy was talking about how it happened at Calvary St.
- Andrews, and she mentioned Lee Fisher and Kevin-- or Keith.
- And when they did play, things there,
- because Keith was a playwright type of thing.
- And they couldn't find any other venue.
- And Judy says, "Well, come on in here,"
- because I can't remember.
- It's sort of a play--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Was it St. Andrews, you said?
- BOB DAY: Yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
- Calvary St. Andrews.
- BOB DAY: It was something like The Sacred Heart is Bleeding,
- but that wasn't it.
- Keith had written the play.
- And the language was sort of rough.
- And the other people, oh, you can't bring this in here,
- 'cause it's too-- and so they staged it in the church.
- And Judy pushed the pews back, and away we went.
- And so that's when I started getting going.
- And then I can remember in those early days with Lee, you, and--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Claire.
- BOB DAY: --Claire going out to Logan's to picket
- Rush Limbaugh who's come to speak
- to a bunch of republicans.
- And that could have been in the early '80s, wasn't it?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Mid '80s.
- BOB DAY: Mid '80s.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Mid to late '80s.
- Yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- BOB DAY: OK.
- And that's when I started coming out at--
- well, they knew at work.
- But it wasn't all that formalized.
- And so--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Where were you working at this time?
- BOB DAY: RIT.
- I worked there forty years.
- Yeah.
- It wasn't until Coming Out Day--
- I remember that Coming Out Day.
- And they looked at me.
- I said, "I'm coming out."
- And they said, "So?"
- (Laughs) Oh, a great trepidation.
- EVELYN BAILEY: That was a little disappointing, wasn't it?
- BOB DAY: It sure was.
- It sure was.
- But I can remember we were chanting "Racist, sexist,
- anti-gay, Rush Limbaugh go away."
- They were chanting that.
- And so this guy gets up in my face with a microphone.
- And I always know if you're in a field of white folks
- and you're the only black face there,
- they want to get up there and-- (Laughs)
- EVELYN BAILEY: Get you.
- BOB DAY: Yeah.
- And he says, "And why are you here?"
- And I says, "Well, you heard us chanting.
- Just pick a couple of them."
- And so the next manager's meeting we had at work,
- old (unintelligible) said, "Bob, did I see you on TV?
- What were you doing?"
- Taking it to the streets.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Did you get in trouble for that?
- BOB DAY: No.
- You know, as a matter of fact, just
- maybe a few years before I left, I got awfully frustrated
- 'cause I was with some NTID students.
- And do you remember that bar that
- was down there on the millrace down there?
- What was the name--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Lost and Found?
- BOB DAY: The Lost and Found, yeah.
- And so we were down there in some place dancing.
- And some of the NTID students went, "Oh,
- we saw you at Metro."
- And then they started mimicking and doing all this other stuff.
- And my supervisor came in, and I was hopping mad.
- I said, "I'm going to slap the snot right out
- of that gentleman's mouth if he doesn't shut up."
- And so he said, "What is he doing?"
- And I said to him, "They're harassing me."
- He says, "Well go see Davis.
- He'll straighten that out."
- I didn't realize that Davis was closeted himself,
- a married man.
- But anyhow, he did.
- He stopped all that type of stuff.
- And so my supervisor said, "You don't have to take that."
- And then maybe a couple of years later or the next year
- or so, I had to fire a guy.
- And so I'm doing all this documentation
- and all this other stuff.
- And after I let him go, he charged me with reverse racism.
- So he had..
- So the human service woman said, "Well
- nothing is going to happen to you because you're a protected
- class.
- First, you're old--" well, she didn't say old, but, "your age.
- And you're race-- (laughs) And you're not going anywhere."
- And I said, "I didn't realize I had all this back up."
- Times have changed, you know.
- And from when you're the first hired and the last--
- last hired and the first fired.
- So times had changed around the forty years.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Do you remember any rumors, '50s, 60's,
- of any of the mayors being gay?
- BOB DAY: Yes.
- May with his little-- what was the name, Peter May?
- Yeah.
- And he was.
- He was a handsome devil, too.
- And I guess he donated his car to some benefit program
- or something and what not.
- And I think he was sort of picked for higher office too
- and went on.
- But yeah, that's right, because, oh--
- it was a woman that worked for me.
- I swear.
- I hate it when my names-- but anyhow,
- she was a very folk something.
- She was a Scottish lady.
- And her brother was on the police force.
- And he was always talking about Peter May and his pink T's
- or something like that.
- They had mentioned of that.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Bob, did you ever get involved with gay right
- marches and that sort of thing?
- BOB DAY: Yeah.
- As a matter of fact, last Sunday when
- I said I was with the hoodies and stuff marching
- and I went to a meeting and I stopped them.
- I said, "Oh, it felt so good," I said,
- "because I can remember we had one of the first gay marches
- from the Liberty pole, or down there up to the Liberty."
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
- BOB DAY: And a friend in this group that we all know,
- Kevin-- and I said, and Kevin was marching along
- with this big sign.
- "Hey, Ma, guess what?"
- And that was one of the earlier ones.
- And then--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, let me ask you.
- I don't want to just pass right by this.
- It probably was the first one, actually.
- What were you feeling at the time about--
- BOB DAY: Empowered.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah?
- BOB DAY: Yeah.
- There was that thing.
- And there wasn't all that shame and stuff like that.
- It was after Stonewall and stuff.
- The spirit was rising and things like that.
- And then-- it had to be in the '80s too,
- because my friend David Bishop, who was a friend of Walter--
- what was Pollack's name that was the first--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Walter Pollack?
- BOB DAY: Well, his last name was Pollack.
- I can't remember his first name.
- He was editor of the Empty Closet.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
- BOB DAY: Thank you, Evelyn.
- I hope it isn't-- it's not catching, is it?
- Oh, I can see his face.
- He taught at RIT.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Richard?
- (Interposing voices)
- EVELYN BAILEY: No.
- I know, I know his name, too.
- I cannot think of his first name.
- BOB DAY: Because both David and Pollack
- lived with Whitey LeBlanc over on what street.
- But anyhow, so David and I had gone to Washington for some
- of the marches on Washington and when the quilt was first
- laid out.
- And I could march it.
- I'd like to go back and do it again, because--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: It was 1992.
- BOB DAY: --we're shaking our fists at the Supreme
- Court and everything else.
- I don't know what--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: 1992.
- BOB DAY: OK, great.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I was there.
- BOB DAY: You were there too?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yes.
- I was--
- BOB DAY: Were you in your mother's arms?
- Or were you in the stroller?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I was in the front row
- of that march with Liza Minnelli on one arm
- and Patti Austin on the other.
- BOB DAY: Get out.
- All right.
- Now that's a memory.
- That's a memory.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Wow.
- BOB DAY: Oh, yeah.
- In the Reagan White House and all that.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Actually it was Bush then.
- It was Bush Sr.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Bush Sr.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: It was just before-- it was October.
- It was Columbus Day weekend 1992, just before the election
- that elected Bill Clinton.
- BOB DAY: OK.
- Well that must have been the second one.
- Was there one before then too?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I remember that being the first time
- that the entire quilt was laid out on the mall.
- BOB DAY: OK.
- Well this may have been--
- EVELYN BAILEY: The quilt. Yes.
- BOB DAY: --the one before it.
- But it was the one with the quilt.
- EVELYN BAILEY: There was one--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Was there one before it?
- EVELYN BAILEY: There was a march in Washington in the '80s.
- BOB DAY: 'Cause I know it was Reagan,
- because Reagan wasn't addressing AIDS or anything like the.
- EVELYN BAILEY: '84, '85.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, that's true.
- There was a march on Reagan's administration.
- BOB DAY: Yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: But the quilt wasn't there.
- BOB DAY: No.
- EVELYN BAILEY: No.
- There wasn't the quilt.
- BOB DAY: That was the second time.
- But I remember it with the quilt. And--
- EVELYN BAILEY: And it was about AIDS.
- It was about the lack of funding that was coming down.
- BOB DAY: The Supreme Court had done something too.
- I don't know what it was, but we were shaking our fists at them
- about for justice and things like that.
- We were saying shame, shame, shame or whatever it was.
- And David and I had stayed up on Dupont Circle or something.
- We were walking down Connecticut-- the drive
- to the thing.
- And there was just a mess of gay people walking down where the--
- it could have been the quilt one, too.
- I don't know, because there was a whole lot--
- walking towards the mall.
- And so this little Camaro was going down the street,
- "Hey, faggots!"
- And then the light changed.
- And they were stopped right in the intersection.
- And all these guys got a hold of that little Camaro.
- You'd never seen so many scared faces inside there.
- They were picking it up.
- They could have flipped it over.
- And I says, "I bet you next time you holler hey faggots,
- you're going to look around and see who's--
- and we'll show you what a faggot can do.
- Turn you upside down."
- But those were in the empowering days.
- That was-- yeah.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Did you ever feel
- like you were making history?
- Did you realize you were making history?
- BOB DAY: Did I realize--
- I realized that things were changing.
- And to make change come around-- because with you
- ladies and stuff like that, you taught me
- how to find this voice.
- But it goes way back, Geneva, and I can't remember her name--
- her last name.
- But she was at RIT.
- And she was doing this little seminar
- once with some black students on the-- it
- was it HEOP type of program or something, issues on racism
- and stuff like that.
- And she said, "The only way we can stop it is
- don't play into it.
- If there's an oppressor, you got to have an oppressed.
- So don't be the oppressed.
- Stand up."
- And then I said, "Well that's really it."
- The only way this game is going to work is if we play into it.
- And--
- EVELYN BAILEY: We let it happen.
- BOB DAY: Yeah.
- And so you saw it with the gay situation.
- And she saw it with the race one.
- And so yeah.
- It was, I think, coming out.
- But not letting everyone know, I still
- got putrefaction in there.
- Do this on one side, not--
- and this was just recently.
- Oh, it was 1991, because last month there's
- this preacher, Jimmy Creech, who was a Methodist pastor that
- was defrocked for marrying two lesbian women.
- And also he'd written a book about What Adam Taught Me.
- And he had a parishioner that was gay.
- He was in his fifties.
- And he said, "I'm not taking it anymore.
- I'm not taking this abuse from the church anymore."
- And so Jimmy started investigating what was holding,
- you know.
- And he did this Bible study.
- And he changed his whole philosophy.
- And he's been a great advocate.
- And another one was Mel White.
- And he was here for this talk that they do up in Colgate
- Rochester Divinity School.
- It's a personal lecture on gay and lesbian sexuality
- and women's rights type of thing.
- And it was sponsored by the three churches, Third Pres
- and Lake Avenue and Calvary St. Andrews and what not.
- And so Mel White was there.
- And Mel was a speechwriter for Jerry Falwell for a long time.
- And maybe you had some of his writers come through to the Gay
- Alliance instead.
- Go around.
- So Mel was picketing these different conventions
- of different churches.
- And so he was in New Orleans and got arrested.
- And Jimmy Creech was there.
- And that's why he knows him.
- He had a picture in his book.
- He said, "I got arrested with you."
- And he said--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Howard Pollack.
- BOB DAY: Howard.
- I love the way it comes.
- Did I have the Pollack right?
- I did.
- I did.
- Yeah.
- Howard Pollack.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And Bob Crystal.
- BOB DAY: Yeah.
- There we go.
- Alright.
- That's scratching back.
- So those were empowering things, to make changes in the church,
- because I think the church should be leading
- and they're not, and things like that.
- So that type of activity was empowering and saying
- we're not going to leave this theology and interpretation
- and things like that.
- So that's what I did.
- So anyhow, he's down there getting arrested.
- And two people in our parish heard
- me report back to the church.
- My cousin is working at the lawyer's co-op
- where the both of them work.
- And they said, "Oh, your cousin Bob was a (unintelligible).
- He told us he got arrested."
- And so my cousin William, "I hear
- you got arrested in New Orleans."
- So there it is.
- But the family knows.
- But it's just not all out there and stuff like that
- and let him go, because there's a girl I grew up with.
- We call ourselves cousins, because my aunt raised her.
- She was a foster child.
- But she has two children.
- And one of them is gay, Bernadette or some--
- I've never seen him in drag or anything,
- but he used to be at the Tara's and things like that.
- And so they know who's in the family and who isn't.
- But it hasn't been a big issue.
- And this is another thing about human sexuality.
- Little Bernie, when he was a baby,
- he says, "When Mom would bring us over to your house to visit,
- I always looked for you, because I knew we were the same thing,"
- because I was sort of flamboyant-- (laughs) I didn't
- think I was all that much.
- But he could identify with it real early and stuff like that.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
- Kids know--
- BOB DAY: But the--
- EVELYN BAILEY: --more than we do.
- BOB DAY: But the biggest one was, there was a guy.
- He passed away.
- He was a friend of Michael's too.
- But we were having a party.
- And we were playing baseball.
- And he was playing baseball so--
- I said, "Where'd you learn to play?"
- He said, "In my neighborhood, you
- better learn how to run and play baseball
- or else you'd get beat up."
- And he was talking about, he didn't
- know these feelings, what he had, until one day he was sick
- and he was at home watching TV and Oprah came on.
- And she had a guy explaining about homosexuality.
- And he says, "That's me.
- That's me."
- KEVIN INDOVINO: God bless Oprah.
- BOB DAY: Yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- BOB DAY: Yeah.
- To bring that on, how we self discover
- and learn that we're not all alone and things like that.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Mm-hmm.
- In your-- do you want to--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: No, actually.
- You just started the same question
- I think I was going to start, but--
- BOB DAY: In my what?
- EVELYN BAILEY: In your senior years--
- BOB DAY: Oh, how delicate.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Alright.
- BOB DAY: I never thought I'd get here, I'll tell you that.
- EVELYN BAILEY: What's changed, Bob, in terms of the community?
- In terms of being gay?
- Do you, as a senior citizen, experience any discrimination,
- not necessarily because you're black,
- but because your age or both?
- BOB DAY: I've been blessed.
- And I say that because I do know age is out there.
- I know old chicken hawks--
- I know some of the little young tweets
- don't want to look back at anybody.
- I see it done, but I haven't experienced it
- all that much overtly.
- First of all, I don't go chasing after,
- robbing the cradle and stuff like that.
- But I'm going to put it this way too.
- I've been in recovery for thirty-two years.
- And that just started.
- And I'm not putting the bar people down or anything else.
- But that's where most gay people met.
- And I often talk about back in those days,
- we'd kiss in a shadow.
- And you didn't want anybody to know and stuff like that.
- Now we kiss openly and publicly and wherever we are and hug.
- And so in this recovery program, treated very,
- very well and the others look for maybe mentoring
- or something like that.
- But twice a week I'm invited out with the younger ones
- to do this, do that, do the other thing.
- As I said, when we have picnics and things like that.
- So I'm just amazed at how--
- I'm gonna say integrated but how well I was accepted and not
- up in the face about that.
- And even in the church faith community that I am,
- the younger ones accept and come along.
- And there's one young fella--
- I get uncomfortable sometimes because when
- they break from Sunday school, he'll
- come over and sit beside me type of stuff, because of friendship
- and stuff and not out of fear or anything like that.
- And so I haven't felt that age thing.
- And--
- I guess one thing too, you sort of alluded to tonight too.
- Some kind of way, I don't look as old as I am.
- And even medical people--
- I went to see a physician.
- I had some health problems.
- And my regular doctor wasn't in.
- Another one come in, and she asked my medical history.
- And she says, "Tell me this isn't so.
- You're not really this old."
- Well, yes I am, and things like that.
- But what else kept me going was working at a college.
- There's always young ideas and young people coming around
- and stuff like that.
- So I haven't fallen into that trap.
- I always had young ideas and things coming at me.
- And then the refusal to act old, not to act my age.
- I want to be mature, but not to be decrepit.
- The other day I went to have eyes tested.
- And I walked into the waiting room, and I said, "My god.
- This looks like God's waiting room."
- All these gray haired people with glasses
- and walkers and strollers.
- And so they say, "Mr. Day."
- And I jumped up-- duh, duh, duh.
- Just a flash and biscuits.
- So there is, some of it's a frame of mind and things
- like that and being interested in what's current
- and what have you.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Throughout your years--
- I'll try to be more delicate than Evelyn was.
- BOB DAY: No, I invited rough and roll.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Is there any particular moment
- or particular event or situation or something
- that you did throughout the years that really sticks out
- in your mind in saying wow, that was a really exciting event?
- Or that was a time where I really
- knew I was making maybe some sort of difference
- in the community?
- Or if people were to look back over your legacy,