Audio Interview, Bob Sweeney, September 8, 2012
- BOB SWEENEY: --Gleason would say.
- Remember that?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Pardon me?
- BOB SWEENEY: Jackie Gleason--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Oh yeah.
- BOB SWEENEY: --would say, and away we go.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Away we go.
- Well, I'm here with Bob Sweeney who was very active in The Gay
- Alliance in the early, mid, late 70's.
- And I want to begin with looking at what
- Bob was like when he was seven or eight,
- and then go on from there.
- But you were born in Rochester.
- BOB SWEENEY: Over in the northeast side,
- yeah, over by Franklin High School.
- Franklin High School--
- EVELYN BAILEY: What was that area like at that time?
- Today, of course it's--
- BOB SWEENEY: It's changed, right.
- Back there, of course, the streets
- were named Sobieski, Kosciuszko, very heavy Polish neighborhood.
- Also blended with, because it was not very far from Joseph
- Avenue, the big Jewish community at that point.
- So we had wonderful bakeries too,
- and things like that over there.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And where did you go to school?
- BOB SWEENEY: Well, Franklin High School,
- I went to Franklin High School.
- So did my mother.
- So did my uncles.
- They were all from that area of town,
- whether it be off of Joseph Avenue or off of--
- I was off of--
- I was near Pulaski Park, another Polish name--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Oh, wow.
- BOB SWEENEY: --which was off of Carter Street and North Street.
- I grew up there and stayed there until I graduated, which was--
- graduated in '65, and continued to stay in the area.
- In fact, I bought the house that I grew up partially in.
- I grew up on 651 Wilkins Street.
- And in my high school years, my parents bought a house at 648.
- So (laughs) across the street.
- And then in later years, I even bought that house,
- and then finally sold it and moved to the burbs.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And when you graduated from high school--
- BOB SWEENEY: Mm-hm, '65.
- EVELYN BAILEY: --where were you off to?
- BOB SWEENEY: I started working and went to college part-time,
- went to MCC part-time.
- EVELYN BAILEY: When did you begin to recognize, realize,
- you were gay?
- BOB SWEENEY: Oh, we deal with it slowly and I guess--
- over the years.
- And finally came to the drawing point about 1970,
- '74, about '74.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Were you involved with the Gay Liberation Front
- at the University of Rochester at all?
- BOB SWEENEY: No, no.
- I came on board after that.
- They had already created their own group, The Gay Brotherhood,
- and there was several other groups.
- And they had already moved to the old firehouse
- on Monroe Avenue.
- You know, when you walked down that side alley.
- Remember walking down there?
- And up the back staircase, it was all kind of scary,
- especially if you didn't know exactly where you're going
- or what was behind closed doors.
- EVELYN BAILEY: How did you find The Gay Alliance?
- BOB SWEENEY: I think the phone book.
- My recollection was other people with the three eyes
- and, you know, horns, and things like that.
- So I looked in the phone book, found
- the address, ventured down in broad daylight, of course.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And so you knew no one.
- BOB SWEENEY: No, no, knew no one.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And what did you find when
- you walked up the back stairs?
- And someone at the top must have opened the door.
- BOB SWEENEY: Yep, somebody was there,
- and I don't remember who.
- It could have been people like, at that point,
- people like Michael Robertson were involved, Mark Connolly.
- I don't know if you know that name at all.
- He was involved.
- Bill-- what was it, Bill Connolly.
- Mark, what was Mark's last time, I can remember.
- Now, Mark moved to Boston, Bill moved to Buffalo.
- It was the old regime, so to speak, back then.
- So somebody greeted me, and we talked for, you know, fifteen,
- twenty minutes.
- And told me the times that the group met,
- and whatever, up in the sunken room up there,
- if you remember that.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- BOB SWEENEY: And so at one point,
- I don't know if it was the following week, two
- weeks, or a month later, you know, I showed back up.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And when did you become an officer?
- BOB SWEENEY: Involved in it and more just than a visitor?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- BOB SWEENEY: Oh boy.
- Probably within six or seven months.
- I remember my first input was they asked me,
- what could I help with, what would I mind doing,
- and what would, you know--
- And I said well, I can type.
- So they said, oh, we've got a spot for you
- to help us with the newspaper, The Empty Closet.
- And it was after--
- remember the fire that was Jay's Place?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Mm-hm.
- BOB SWEENEY: And they had moved The Empty Closet
- (unintelligible).
- And I remember that the typewriter
- at that point, the Selectric typewriter,
- was over Whitey's house.
- And so it was Mark, Mark-- whatever his last name was.
- I'll have to look that up.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Mark Shork?
- BOB SWEENEY: No.
- Mark Connolly or something like that.
- I can show you a picture of him.
- Said, OK, let's meet over at Whitey's house,
- and we'll have you help us type up The Empty Closet.
- So I sat there for one afternoon typing up The Empty Closet,
- making paragraphs out of it and things.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And was that--
- BOB SWEENEY: That's when I started to get involved,
- and people--
- EVELYN BAILEY: The eight and a half by eleven?
- Or did you write--
- BOB SWEENEY: I think these were being typed up and then pasted
- up into the bigger stuff.
- Because shortly after that, Tim took over the editorial of it.
- And that's when after-- then we finally
- moved it to above Friers, the second floor of Friers
- at that point.
- And I stuck around helping out with that.
- And then I went on to do other things for The Gay Brotherhood
- at that point.
- And then after that, they moved it over to University Avenue.
- And I wasn't involved.
- I've been there a couple of times down in the chicken wire
- fenced in area, if you remember that--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- BOB SWEENEY: --when Tim was actively involved with it.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And then in 1977, the opportunity
- arose for The Gay Alliance to apply for a CETA grant
- from the federal government.
- And you were president or vice president of the Alliance?
- BOB SWEENEY: President or vice president, not of the Alliance,
- of the Brotherhood, of the Brotherhood, yeah.
- I was never an officer in The Gay Alliance itself,
- the parent company, if you will, the umbrella company, but more
- on the Brotherhood level.
- Yeah, and it was John Noble's idea to say,
- hey, there's this money available.
- Look at what's going on.
- They're giving out money like crazy.
- At that point he said, let's do it.
- And I said, I'm able to write grants.
- I do it all time.
- So we formed a committee, a small committee,
- which was Tim Mains, Michael Robertson, John
- Noble, obviously, and then myself from the Brotherhood,
- and prepared papers to submit the grant,
- submit the request for money.
- And then that's when the action started, if you will.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Now what was the grant for?
- What were you writing this grant for?
- BOB SWEENEY: For staffing purposes,
- so we could hire some staff to really formally get
- this organization at the next level,
- to have a director or somebody that was full-time.
- Because right now, at that point,
- everybody was just volunteers, and also giving
- what we could give as far as knowledge and input.
- So they felt that it was more important to have somebody
- heading the ship and organizing this thing,
- and getting public recognition of our (interposing voices)
- And we're still over on Monroe Avenue at that point, upstairs
- over the old fire hall, which was The Genesee Co-op
- at that point downstairs.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- And when you wrote the grant, you
- were the one who actually wrote it.
- BOB SWEENEY: No, John Noble wrote it.
- Now, he was also employed by the city at that point.
- He had already written a proposal for grant money,
- and I'm not sure if it was from CETA or not, I can't say that,
- but is was grant money.
- He already-- his position, which was archivist at that point,
- was a grant-funded position.
- And so he was--
- knowing how to write grants, and the right things to say,
- and what not to say, what really triggers grant people to say,
- oh, this is worthwhile, etc.
- He wrote it, but he said, I really
- can't pen my name to it because of the exposure.
- So it was all agreed that Michael Robertson, and I
- believe Michael at that point, was head of the GAGV,
- he was the director, chair, whatever you want to call it.
- EVELYN BAILEY: President of the board.
- BOB SWEENEY: President of the board--
- that he would sign it, and we'd be all set.
- Well, it turned out that Michael, at that point,
- was traveling back and forth, because of his partner,
- to Iowa.
- And on a very short notice, something
- turned up this had to be turned in (laughs).
- Somebody had to sign it.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Deadline.
- BOB SWEENEY: Deadline, and Michael
- was not physically here.
- So I go, give me that paper, give me a pen,
- and I'll sign it.
- So I just put a name down.
- In fact, I don't think I've ever read
- the proposal (Bailey laughs).
- But knowing that John had written it,
- and I was very confident that this was something
- that the committee, whoever was reviewing the grants,
- would look highly on and hopefully obtain funding,
- I signed it away.
- And so we then got it to the people that
- were responsible for doing the CETA money
- and got it in under the deadline.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Did you attend any of the city council
- meetings at which the grant was to be, kind of approved?
- BOB SWEENEY: Yes, I remember going to one.
- And that was the one where, not only I went, but we organized,
- I don't know, twenty-five, thirty--
- it looked like a huge group.
- But, you know, when you're in the chambers up there,
- and the seats are all full, and we're all standing back,
- it looked like a huge group.
- And we were there when they, you know,
- all the uproar came from the peanut gallery, if you will.
- And finally, the city council tabled the whole thing,
- because they knew it was going to be--
- it was getting to be very questionable and argumentative
- within the group.
- So I remember Tim Mains being there at that point,
- and I think Michael had already come back, so he was with us.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And who was on city council that--
- BOB SWEENEY: You're pushing my gray hair.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Charlie Schiano?
- BOB SWEENEY: I think Schiano was there, yeah,
- I'm remember him, good old Charlie.
- Of course, he was one of the vocal people against the type
- of thing like that.
- Bill Johnson was the mayor, and Jeff Carlson was the assistant.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Well, Bill Johnson
- was head of the Urban League.
- BOB SWEENEY: Urban League, right.
- Who was the mayor at that point?
- Oh, it was what's his name.
- He had been around for a long time.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Ryan?
- BOB SWEENEY: Ryan.
- Ryan was the mayor at that point, yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Outside of city council chambers and outside
- of writing the CETA grant, do you
- remember how the community, in general, in Rochester
- looked upon--
- not Schiano, I mean--
- Charlie Schiano had a particular focus in opposition.
- BOB SWEENEY: And ax to bear, yeah, right.
- He liked to get his name in the paper by making waves
- and that he thought would get him support.
- And, you know, there's certainly a group
- of people that would rally around his banter.
- EVELYN BAILEY: But outside of him,
- in terms of the community in general,
- do you have any sense of how they
- looked upon the Gay Alliance or how
- they looked upon gay people?
- BOB SWEENEY: I don't think it was very vocal at all.
- I think it was pretty quiet.
- It wasn't supportive or it wasn't negative,
- it was just quiet.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Do you recall receiving any phone calls that
- were threatening, or abusive, or either
- to The Gay Brotherhood, or?
- BOB SWEENEY: No, no, I don't remember any of that,
- no, just went on business as usual.
- Certainly when the-- brought up on council,
- I heard that people at the council got phone calls.
- And I guess that was one of the reasons
- that they passed the hot potato, if you
- will, for even all the grant reviews
- onto a different agency.
- Because they don't feel they were qualified to,
- or wanted to take, the position of allowing or denying
- anything, because they just wanted
- to wipe their hands a little clean and say,
- you know, we've turned it over.
- EVELYN BAILEY: It was, I think, the Community Chest that--
- BOB SWEENEY: Correct.
- EVELYN BAILEY: --originally was the conduit.
- BOB SWEENEY: Right, they were off of St. Paul Street,
- sitting in the Chamber of Commerce building downstairs.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- BOB SWEENEY: They passed it off to them
- and they didn't realize they got such a hot potato either.
- Because it, apparently, clogged up their phone system one day.
- They couldn't make outgoing calls at all.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Wow.
- BOB SWEENEY: Yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: That's pretty significant.
- BOB SWEENEY: Right.
- They had so many people calling it.
- And I'm not sure--
- I don't know the relationship of the calls, whether pro
- or against, but it clogged up their phone system that they
- couldn't operate one day.
- And it was in the paper, I remember that.
- So they wanted to pass it off now.
- They go, this isn't for us either.
- And that's when they passed it off to well, Bill Johnson's
- group, which was the Urban League at that point, right?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- BOB SWEENEY: That's when he was involved with them.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Now, let's move away from CETA and look at--
- besides the Gay Alliance in the early '70s,
- what other resources were available to the community?
- Where else would the community find groups of people
- that they could interact with, that they could share life
- with?
- BOB SWEENEY: I don't know of any, I really don't.
- Buffalo had the Mattachine Society up there,
- Rochester had The Gay Alliance, a group that
- had been around for a while.
- The Mattachine was older than us.
- But that was it that I knew of, other than the typical,
- figure out where the bars are.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- Now, after Stone Wall in '69, over 400 Gay Liberation Front
- groups arose all over the country,
- mostly on college campuses.
- BOB SWEENEY: Where Whitey got involved with the University
- of Rochester.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- By 1974, they were still active, but they weren't as politically
- active, the U of R group, as they were--
- BOB SWEENEY: Socially--
- EVELYN BAILEY: --prior to The Gay Alliance breaking off,
- or the group splitting.
- Do you recall how--
- now, explain to me, The Gay Brotherhood
- was the group that actually broke off from the U of R, or?
- BOB SWEENEY: Not sure, I won't comment on that.
- I got involved when there was The Gay Brotherhood,
- and had already broken off.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Was there a women's group?
- BOB SWEENEY: There was, and I can't remember the name of it.
- Do you remember at all?
- EVELYN BAILEY: GROW.
- BOB SWEENEY: Was is GROW?
- Patti Evans.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Pattie Evans.
- BOB SWEENEY: Right.
- And that's when the other two groups
- decided to form a common group, the Gay Alliance of the Genesee
- Valley.
- And then we also were part of the New York State one.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yes, NYSGA.
- BOB SWEENEY: NYSGA.
- And we used to go to Albany for meetings,
- and lobbying, and things like that back in those days.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And what were you lobbying for?
- BOB SWEENEY: I remember Bob Lewis
- being very active in there.
- Me, Michael, we traveled to Albany
- to their organization, their gay alliance, if you will,
- which is still on Hudson Street by the way.
- It's still on Hudson Street, because I
- have a place in Albany.
- And I haven't been to it, but I know people who go there.
- I guess just for recognition and, you know,
- making sure that we were known.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Were the sodomy laws still in--
- BOB SWEENEY: They were, they were, they were.
- EVELYN BAILEY: So would you have been--
- BOB SWEENEY: We weren't that big or that organized yet.
- We were trying to raise money to hire somebody for a lobbying.
- That was the main group of all of us getting together,
- so we'd have a lobbyist.
- And we did hire a guy by name of John Narik for a while,
- I know that.
- A younger fellow who was a graduate from Rensselaer
- Polytech.
- And we also had a couple lawyers up there, partners.
- two guys.
- Joe something, oh, boy, I'll have to look in the notes.
- So we wanted a lobbyist, to have people to go around and prove
- to the legislative people that were the reps for all
- across the state, that we were a group that
- should be recognized.
- So we got some money.
- EVELYN BAILEY: The Gay Brotherhood,
- what was its purpose?
- BOB SWEENEY: Mainly social, mainly social, we had meetings,
- I think they were once a week.
- I don't remember the night, maybe Sunday nights,
- but we'd have a social thing.
- And it was social/educational.
- So we'd bring in speakers or have
- a program that lasted, you know, an hour or so,
- try to spread the word, try to help with the distribution
- of the newspaper at that point.
- We used to take the newspaper, when it came out once
- a month, a bunch of us after the meeting would, you know,
- grab papers and go down to the different bars
- and stand and hand them out, and things like that.
- So it was trying to get people together outside of just
- the alcoholic scene of the bars and do social activities.
- Certainly there was a-- every year
- we sponsored a trip to see how many people would join us
- for the New York City Pride days,
- and go down to New York City Pride, and stuff like that.
- So take the train down, a whole bunch of us.
- EVELYN BAILEY: In your experience, as a gay man,
- have you ever been discriminated against?
- Have you ever been assaulted or attacked?
- BOB SWEENEY: I can honestly say I don't have any recollections
- of that, I really don't.
- If there were any, it would be more, I think, contrived.
- But, no, and that's been a positive thing.
- But then again, there are different ways
- that people interact, and they're all legitimate.
- Don't get me wrong.
- I'm not saying the way I interact is one way is best.
- Obviously, I have a lot of people
- I know, especially more now so in Albany,
- because just I'm out.
- I'm away from Jerry in Albany, my partner.
- And so being a social person, I interact with people up there.
- And some of the younger people are very much more--
- outgoing presence of, you know, their needs or their
- wants, and act somewhat differently.
- You know, my job and my things I've always enjoyed,
- I am what I am, and so I've never had that issue.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Would you identify yourself as out?
- BOB SWEENEY: Never deny.
- Certainly at the office, although I'm not--
- I have another associate at my office who is very pushy,
- forward, even at meetings.
- That's just not me.
- So everybody obviously knows who I am,
- and my partner and I go to company functions
- when I feel like going.
- In fact, they always ask, bring Jerry,
- why aren't you coming, etc.
- For example, I had a business associate from Baltimore
- over the other night.
- A married gentleman, nice guy, wife, family, and I
- had him over for dinner, and he's
- encouraging me to use his home that they
- have up in Maine at times.
- We're just people.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right
- BOB SWEENEY: No.
- So if you treat people like that instead of trying to shove--
- anything, even them shoving down my throat, anything that--
- So we get along well.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Now, in terms of--
- you graduated from Franklin.
- You went to--
- BOB SWEENEY: MCC for a couple years, part-time.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And then?
- BOB SWEENEY: Always stayed in Rochester.
- I did one little stint out of town for a-- but not very far.
- EVELYN BAILEY: After MCC, did you go on?
- BOB SWEENEY: Nope, no, I already had a position,
- that I had a wonderful mentor for a boss.
- We used to kid, my boss, he was a frustrated schoolteacher.
- And if you ever asked a question,
- he'd explained things in great detail
- as far as the technology of it, because it's
- more a technical program, to the point that we always kid.
- I would say, never ask a Dutch what time
- it is, because he'll tell you how to build a watch
- (Bailey laughs).
- And so I learned from him quite well.
- And as a result, I made a reasonably good living
- in that technology group.
- And people said, you haven't got a four-year degree?
- No.
- In fact, I heard a guy about six years ago now,
- he's taken over my Rochester job, great person.
- In fact, we travel together all the time,
- and share a hotel room, and we get along.
- And I always kid him, I'll come out and fix your tie.
- It's a little crooked.
- But he came out at college with six years.
- He had gone for years, and stayed on for two more years.
- Came on board with me.
- Although he understood the technology,
- still had to be taught, had to learn.
- And it's great to see him now pick it up,
- because I also, if he ever asked a question,
- I told him how to build a watch.
- So some of the college stuff you learn,
- although it may be theory of Ohm's law,
- you need to know how to apply it in different applications.
- So I teach engineers right now.
- I go around providing education courses that have CEU and PDH
- credits for the state education department for engineering
- firms.
- EVELYN BAILEY: How important, in your opinion,
- is a high school diploma, a college diploma, and beyond?
- How important is that, not from an LGBT perspective,
- but from your--
- BOB SWEENEY: Just in general life.
- It all depends where you surface and what you really like to do.
- I just met a gentleman the other day--
- not the other day, it was about two months ago, Chris.
- He's from the Albany area, now lives down closer to the city.
- Was going to Saint Rose College.
- I don't know if you know that.
- EVELYN BAILEY: I do.
- BOB SWEENEY: It's an education college up in Albany.
- Went there two years and just didn't like it.
- And he is now in construction work.
- He works for a firm that rehabs buildings in New York City.
- And he just loves what he's doing.
- He has a smile on his face.
- EVELYN BAILEY: High school diploma?
- BOB SWEENEY: High school diploma, two years of college,
- but decided teaching professional wasn't for him.
- This John Narik I talked about went to Rensselaer Polytech
- and got a chemical engineering degree.
- And the last I heard he's a librarian.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- BOB SWEENEY: So I guess somebody that
- wants to become something in their field and does it--
- Joe Packis I don't know if you know Joe Packis
- four-year degree in optical engineering
- from the University of Rochester, one of the few.
- There's, I don't know, half a dozen colleges in the United
- States that have this optical engineering degree
- level that the University of Rochester offers.
- And U of R is not a cheap school.
- You know what he's doing now?
- He's working for a testing firm that he helps proofread tests
- that this firm sends out to high schools
- and colleges for testing math.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Wow.
- BOB SWEENEY: Math questions.
- So he proofreads the math questions
- to make sure that they're correct and et cetera.
- So is a college degree important?
- For some, yes.
- For some, not.
- EVELYN BAILEY: High school?
- BOB SWEENEY: Oh, absolutely, high school, yeah.
- You better know how to count change.
- And some of the people I know in Albany didn't.
- They took the easy road out.
- They wanted to party to hard.
- But they've gone back, most of them, and got their GEDs.
- You need that for basic education, you know.
- But if you can find a position, that's something you like,
- you can excel in it.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Is the company that you work
- for currently LGBT friendly?
- Does it have, included in its policies and HR, benefits?
- BOB SWEENEY: Yes.
- It's a single one line statement, or three,
- or whatever it says, yeah.
- They are, they are.
- No discrimination based on blah, blah, blah.
- Although we are a small company.
- We're less than 100 employees.
- EVELYN BAILEY: But in traveling around,
- do you find that piece important to people?
- BOB SWEENEY: I would hope so.
- I'm not sure I do or not, but I hope it would be.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- BOB SWEENEY: Certainly our major companies in Rochester
- have stepped forward, wouldn't you agree with that?
- EVELYN BAILEY: I would, yeah.
- BOB SWEENEY: They have stepped forward.
- And, you know, it's not costing them anything,
- and yet it's getting them positive reactions for that.
- Interesting, I went to a hotel--
- this is a story Jerry doesn't even know.
- Took a friend of mine, went out of town,
- I have to stay in Albany.
- And I said, oh, let's head up to Springfield.
- So I checked in at a hotel and they said they have a king bed.
- And they looked at me and the guy that was with me,
- and they go, oh.
- Oh, we got you in a king bed.
- Don't worry, we're going out, just we're sleeping.
- And it turned out the next morning, we go down,
- see the same desk clerk at this nice hotel,
- it was a reasonably nice hotel.
- And they had a breakfast, and he comes over,
- and has a cup of coffee, and he tells me
- about him and his partner and how they just adopted kids,
- and everything else like that.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- BOB SWEENEY: It's interesting.
- EVELYN BAILEY: When you look back
- at your involvement in The Gay Brotherhood and The Gay
- Alliance, what are you most proud of, Bob?
- BOB SWEENEY: Well, probably selfishly,
- just that I got over that hurdle, you know.
- That was more-- although, I hoped I helped other things,
- and made statements, and CETA, and whatever else.
- And then I moved on, because I wanted other people to do it.
- I hate organizations that a person
- self-perpetuates and doesn't give
- other people opportunities.
- But it was, really, it was mind-boggling to deal
- with the community on a different level
- than over a drink.
- The time that-- this was after CETA money.
- I think we already had CETA money at that point.
- And there was news at noon, Channel ten, I think.
- Channel ten?
- No.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Thirteen?
- BOB SWEENEY: It was Channel eight,
- because I remember going down to Humboldt Street
- at their studios down there.
- And it was Margaret Graham Smith was the news broadcaster, who
- always did a segment at the noon news of a community highlight
- or something, and had an interview scene.
- And so I got the call, I don't know,
- because I guess I was president of The Gay Brotherhood
- at that point.
- I got the call from the news team down.
- There they said they would like to do one of the spotlights
- on The Gay Brotherhood of Rochester,
- and would I come down and do the interview
- with Margaret Graham Smith.
- Sure.
- And so I went to Darrell--
- What was Darrell's last name?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Porter?
- BOB SWEENEY: No.
- The minister that we hired to run the CETA--
- was our first employee, and Darrell was his first name,
- and his last name was--
- I've got his card downstairs.
- He was the associate pastor of my church, by the way.
- A big downtown church, and we hired him to be the director,
- our first paid employee.
- I remember saying, well, Darrell, I've
- got to go down to this interview.
- He said, I'll go with you.
- And so we went down and did the interview at noon for them.
- Of course, this was normally when the news came on.
- They broke away from the news, and then they
- went to this special spotlight thing,
- and then they'd come on and do the little ten-minute,
- eight-minute talk, whatever it was.
- Questions were all prepared, so you
- could come up with what you wanted to say in advance.
- But our interview was preceded by a screen
- on the TV, adult matter.
- Turn the kids away, in other words.
- You may want to turn the kids away.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Oh my gosh.
- BOB SWEENEY: Yeah.
- And of course, we didn't talk anything controversial.
- We just talked about what The Gay Brotherhood was,
- what our purposes were, where we're located,
- what we expected to help, et cetera.
- EVELYN BAILEY: So obviously the--
- BOB SWEENEY: Of course, that caused a big fury in my family,
- because all of a sudden, whoa, I was on TV promoting what?
- Yeah, the family reacted negatively.
- Oh, I remember that.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Subsequently, did your family kind of adjust
- to the--
- BOB SWEENEY: Some did and some didn't.
- I won't go in details of every name.
- But it was one of my mother's uncles,
- so it was my grandmother's brother,
- you know, called up and just-- and there
- was a cousin that called up and just ranted and raved,
- and blah, blah, blah.
- And so subsequently to that, although there was still
- heat within the local family, there were some things,
- they'd say, well, I guess we don't
- have to talk to them anymore, that type
- of thing, which was supportive.
- Even though there were some ruffled feathers
- in the immediate family.
- But I'd rather get that over with and deal with the fallout
- than to never deal with it at all.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Absolutely.
- Were your parents supportive of you as a--
- BOB SWEENEY: OK, they were OK.
- Understand that I was married, and I was
- getting divorced through this.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And did you have children?
- BOB SWEENEY: One.
- Now lives in Richmond, Virginia, and is catching up to me
- in age, so.
- Got out of Rochester because of the weather.
- Went to Plattsburgh College, and didn't like the weather
- up there either.
- EVELYN BAILEY: It appears, or not appears,
- it is, in fact, the traditional process, for most gay men
- to have been married, and then to have been
- divorced, or for many gay men.
- And then to recognize their own sexuality
- and move in another direction.
- BOB SWEENEY: And why is that?
- Why do you think that happens?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Oh, I assume it's societal norms that--
- BOB SWEENEY: Peer pressure.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- BOB SWEENEY: Or lack of information
- that there are alternatives, you know.
- Or the alternatives, because you had minimal information,
- were scary.
- That there really wasn't normal people.
- The good news about 2012, or 2010, or 11, is all of a sudden
- the media has done some things in a positive--
- and whether it be comedic, or whatever.
- The old back in the--
- I don't know, was it '80s, maybe late '70s, of The Odd Couple,
- of Felix and Oscar.
- Although they're not gay, oh no, but obviously
- the overtones were.
- But nowadays you have Will & Grace, you know,
- in a very positive note.
- One's a lawyer, and et cetera, and continues.
- There are other ones that--
- What's the-- not in The Middle, the other one, Modern Family.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- BOB SWEENEY: So kids are seeing different light on things
- that I-- younger people, not kids.
- Younger people, they grow up, they
- know there are, and not just heard about uncle.
- Like the old mailbox, Bill and John, same name on the mailbox.
- Underneath they have sign saying, just good friends.
- I have a friend of mine who's a high-end doctor here in town,
- and him and his partner lived out in one of the suburbs.
- And he's treating a little old lady who is in her late 80's,
- early 90's, and she questioned him, well, where do you live?
- And he explained where.
- He was in this small town, right in the bend in the road.
- And she said, well, that's my town.
- I know that house, she said.
- I heard there were two old brothers that live there.
- He goes, I didn't mind the part about the brothers,
- but the old from a ninety-year-old lady,
- that hurt.
- EVELYN BAILEY: What was the catalyst that
- moved you to accept who you were and get divorced?
- BOB SWEENEY: Yeah, another friend of mine
- came to me many years ago, after I'd already
- broken away, and done my own thing,
- and had my own apartment, and was active in the Brotherhood.
- This is a guy that I grew up with and had moved out of town,
- and got married, and the whole bit.
- And he knew exactly who I was, because I
- wasn't hiding anything, and his name was John.
- He showed up in my apartment one night.
- I was in town for a meeting or something.
- He calls me, and he says, can I come over?
- John, geez, I'm glad you're in town.
- Come on over.
- So he comes over, and we have a drink or two,
- and he's sitting there.
- He goes to me, now, how can I divorce my wife?
- He goes, I'm not happy.
- I want to divorce her.
- How can I do that?
- I go, John, you're not ready.
- If you have to ask me that question, you're not ready.
- You'll know when you're ready, you'll know.
- It'll just get to that point.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And you could not do anything else but that.
- BOB SWEENEY: I felt that, you know, if I did anything else,
- I wasn't being true to myself.
- And not only myself, other people get affected by it.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Sure.
- BOB SWEENEY: Sure.
- And so I could see what was happening.
- Now, as we look back in hindsight,
- you know, about three years after that, major valleys,
- so to speak, that you have to get through and get
- back up on the hill again, Then people
- came to me, and more than one, and said,
- you know, you've got a different smile on your face.
- You're acting differently now.
- But until you get to that plateau or that bottom,
- you know, it's not time.
- Just like people that are using, drinking too much, or drugs too
- much, until they go to the bottom,
- you can give them all the help and kicks you want
- and they just won't change their habits and move forward.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- BOB SWEENEY: And so it happens.
- So from what I hear, it's not a fun time
- for the people of my generation or around my generation.
- Hopefully it's not gotten to that point with that younger
- generation, as they move on, they can deal with it.
- At least the people that I run into in Albany
- seem very comfortable.
- EVELYN BAILEY: At a very young age.
- BOB SWEENEY: At a younger age, yes, in their twenties.
- EVELYN BAILEY: When you look back over your life,
- could you ever have imagined either the Gay Alliance,
- or gay rights, or equal rights coming to the point
- that it has in 2012?
- Where it is-- same sex marriage is
- a plank of the Democratic National Committee.
- Where we have, in this state, legalized same sex marriage.
- We had Dignity For All Students Act, we had SONDA,
- we had innumerable other pieces of legislation,
- hate crime legislation on a federal level.
- Did you, looking back, have any sense
- or any idea that could happen?
- BOB SWEENEY: No, you didn't really.
- And we have moved the hockey puck forward.
- I don't think we're there yet.
- I think there's enough pushback yet,
- people are trying to repeal acts and things.
- Although it's a major step forward,
- it's not at the goal line.
- There's things that are being repealed,
- and people who want to repeal them.
- Even though they're just threatened for no reason,
- you know.
- They're really threatened for no reason.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Were you at all affected
- by the diagnosis of homosexuality
- being a personality disorder, identified in the DSM-III
- as such?
- BOB SWEENEY: No.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Now the APA, American Psychiatric
- Association, repealed that in 1973, '74.
- So it was--
- BOB SWEENEY: It was around for a while, that's for sure.
- EVELYN BAILEY: It was after that that you became involved, but--
- BOB SWEENEY: There were communities
- that said, send me your weak, send me your children,
- and we'll cure them, right?
- Remember that whole story?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Were you affected by that at all?
- Did you ever look at yourself and say,
- I'm a person with a personality disorder?
- BOB SWEENEY: No, not a personality disorder,
- but when reading those articles back then, basically
- they said, you can change.
- And so, sure, I can change.
- That'll be a much, much easier road
- than having to figure out who's who,
- where's where, what do I do, and why do we go like this,
- and why shouldn't I like this, sure.
- But then I saw people like--
- so when I did go to The Gay Alliance
- way back when, they said, are you interested in meeting
- with anybody for counseling?
- In fact, even my church, there was a guy
- by the name of Doug Stump, and he was our associate pastor.
- And I was still married at that point,
- and so we decided to go talk to him, both me and the wife.
- And at that point he pulled me aside.
- He goes, listen, there's another pastor who specializes in this.
- I don't know if you know the name Reverend Walt Szymanski.
- So I did contact Walt, and sat down with Walt
- on several occasions.
- And he shed a different perspective on it,
- a new light on it, if you will, which was very, very helpful
- at that point.
- So it wasn't the, you're sick, you can get cured.
- It's, you need to deal with this.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Were you ever ashamed of being a gay man?
- BOB SWEENEY: It certainly didn't-- you didn't broadcast
- it, let's put it that way.
- I don't know if ashamed would be the word,
- but you knew enough not to broadcast--
- assimilate.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah, I'm trying to--
- BOB SWEENEY: I had an employer one time,
- and the name, again, will remain anonymous,
- but I remember I worked for this company.
- And one of the people there, who was kind of like my boss,
- because we all worked on this team, very, very out,
- much more effeminate acting.
- So as a result, he was out.
- And that was-- it was almost a little embarrassing.
- Because this was back in--
- this would be back in about 1962.
- '62?
- No, sorry, '67.
- Out of high school, part-time college, part-time work, '67,
- yeah.
- And then his partner came in who was really there.
- And of course, the rest of the employees,
- when he was out room, would talk to me about him.
- I go, oh.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Are you proud to be who you are today?
- BOB SWEENEY: I'm very comfortable,
- and I try to help others at whatever level I can.
- I have no-- no hiding.
- Although I'm not trying to recruit people.
- If there's somebody out there, whatever.
- Because I'm now with my partner.
- We're in our twenty-seventh year, twenty-seven years
- together.
- EVELYN BAILEY: What has given you the foundation to say,
- Bob Sweeney is a good person.
- BOB SWEENEY: Oh, that's like, what makes
- the top of a Christmas tree?
- There's all the stuff underneath that
- has built up over the years, whether it be family, friends,
- knowledge, social interaction, you know.
- Can you do things better?
- Do you want to whatever?
- There's always improvement.
- EVELYN BAILEY: But you were never defeated by who you were.
- BOB SWEENEY: Well, OK, I'll give you--
- and this is more stories you wanted to hear.
- One time I took this course, and Bob Lewis was involved.
- Did you ever hear of--
- oh, the nickname was--
- EVELYN BAILEY: The Forum?
- BOB SWEENEY: The Forum.
- Remember that up in Toronto?
- I took the course.
- Understand that hopefully as a reasonable, intelligent person,
- I could separate some of the bull
- from some of the good stuff that they
- were trying to feed you through the Kool-Aid, if you will.
- And there were some good things that came out of that.
- It was two weekends in a row, it was very regimented.
- There was some bad stuff, there was some good stuff.
- But basically when you boiled the two things down,
- one thing says that even the President of the United States
- puts his pants on one leg at a time, we're all human beings,
- we're all people.
- And the other thing is, the other thing that came out
- of that is, if you live in a box and the box is big,
- and somebody yells at you because you did something.
- You go, OK, I'll never do that again,
- the box gets a little smaller.
- And somebody else yells at you, oh,
- don't ever do that, that's wrong, the box gets smaller.
- And so if you grow up over a life,
- and get yelled at sometimes by various people, bosses,
- partners, parents, whatever, and you start throwing out
- all the stuff that you got yelled at
- so you're in your comfort zone, you're
- in a very small, little box.
- And this course said, move out of the box.
- Maybe they were wrong in yelling at you.
- Take some chances.
- You may be wrong again.
- And so that course, I forget, that was number of years ago.
- And it was reasonably expensive, 800 bucks.
- And so I go back into my employer at that point,
- and we're sitting down on a Monday
- just mulling over what happened.
- He goes, what'd you do this weekend?
- I went, past two weekends, I went to this course.
- I took this course.
- And I started telling him about the box, et cetera.
- He goes, did you have to pay for that course?
- I go, yeah, it was pretty expensive, 800 bucks.
- He goes, put it on your expense account.
- I'll pay for it.
- So had I not told him, I would never
- have got paid for it, right?
- Well, that's pretty good.
- That's a positive.
- So the next things happens, and I'm already divorced,
- and the kid is living with my ex-wife.
- So I have some stuff that had gone to the Hard Rock Cafe,
- because it was held up in Toronto,
- and bought some stuff him.
- And I sent it out to him, saying from your father,
- here's some stuff.
- Well, that backfired.
- That really backfired.
- So some things did happen negatively.
- But I had enough, now, from the course saying, I wasn't wrong.
- It was just they didn't like it.
- And so keep on going.
- Don't ever try it, just don't always
- expect that it will work the way you want it to.
- So it was good.
- So things have backfired.
- But if you don't try it, they'll never backfire,
- and you'll live in the little box.
- EVELYN BAILEY: What do you think--
- you already alluded to the fact that the puck, the football
- is in the air, but not at the goal line.
- BOB SWEENEY: Yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: What is between now and the goal line?
- BOB SWEENEY: Time and as much energy as we put in so far.
- I don't think-- we've not fallen back, we're moving forward.
- You just got to keep in front of the people,
- in front of the neighbors.
- For example, here on our street, we're on a cul-de-sac street.
- We're one of the people that hosts the neighborhood parties.
- And we don't have the mailbox saying, just good friends,
- out there.
- So they all--
- I've lived for twenty-five years in this house.
- And of course doing that one step at a time, one
- neighbor at a time, one office person at a time
- we'll get the backing that we need to keep this thing rolling
- and not make it such a big, oh my gosh, the sky is falling,
- you know, Chicken Little type of thing.
- They'll always be people that like vanilla and people
- that like chocolate ice cream.
- Those people will be on the pro side
- and they'll be some people on the negative side.
- We just have to make sure that the pro side outweighs
- the negative side, and it's just going to talk some time.
- We're on the right step.
- Hopefully nothing bad happens, but it's just going take time.
- Do you agree?
- EVELYN BAILEY: I agree.
- Oh, I agree.
- BOB SWEENEY: But what we're doing it.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Just one more historical question.
- In terms of CETA, how significant
- was it for The Gay Alliance to receive that grant?
- BOB SWEENEY: Because we got a grant that
- was bigger than the Girl Scouts, if I remember right.
- I think it was the Girl Scouts organization.
- And that was-- of course, to Charlie Schiano,
- was just unbearable.
- But it was significant that we became a viable agency
- within Monroe County.
- And that we were a legitimate agency, not this little crazy
- group that's, again, deranged, mentally sick people.
- That they felt that this was a viable organization.
- And that now we could hire staff, which
- was a whole different issue.
- That turned out to be more of an issue than getting the money.
- What do you do with it successfully?
- And who runs it, and et cetera?
- But, yeah, it was significant that we
- were able to say that we were as good as the Girl Scouts,
- in our outreach to a specific community,
- just like the Girl Scouts are.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- Wow.
- BOB SWEENEY: So that was good.
- And that money we got renewed once,
- I think, if I remember correct.
- But obviously that whole program went away years ago.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- BOB SWEENEY: But that started getting community involvement,
- other organizations, and other people joining,
- and bringing out funds.
- Other than that, we were just living--
- that rent check was hand them off almost up there with--
- Howard Cullen was the treasurer at that point.
- I remember Howard.
- He lives in Texas.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And you were fundraising there too.
- There were primarily--
- BOB SWEENEY: The picnic.
- EVELYN BAILEY: The picnic.
- BOB SWEENEY: Yeah, the picnic was it.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- BOB SWEENEY: Now, the picnic in those days-- in fact,
- that first year after CETA funding, we moved the picnic.
- Do you remember the year we moved the picnic?
- EVELYN BAILEY: No.
- BOB SWEENEY: Because we used to hold it always in-- well,
- they still do, Genesee Valley Park.
- But that's a public park.
- And so you really can't control, keep people out
- of the public park.
- They still have the rights to maybe not come within the fence
- area where we're charging money for the activity,
- but they can certainly be any place on the grounds.
- And so that year we ended up moving it
- to the Barnard Exempt, a private park, way out in Greece.
- I understood that people were complaining,
- because that's not the city.
- But we needed a private venue--
- EVELYN BAILEY: In Greece.
- BOB SWEENEY: --in Greece where we could control
- who entered the property.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And then it went back then.
- BOB SWEENEY: So here we are moving out to the Barnard
- Exempt, The Gay Alliance saying, we
- want to hold our gay pride picnic out at your facility,
- and they were fine with it.
- They were fine with it.
- I remember that year.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And then it went back--
- BOB SWEENEY: Then it went back.
- EVELYN BAILEY: --just to Genesee Valley Park.
- BOB SWEENEY: It was only there one year.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- BOB SWEENEY: I don't know what year that was,
- but we could look.
- EVELYN BAILEY: I don't--
- BOB SWEENEY: It would have been in The Closet at some point.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Probably 1978 or '77.
- BOB SWEENEY: Yeah, one of those years.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- BOB SWEENEY: Barnard Exempt in Greece,
- way in the middle of no place.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Wow.
- Well, Bob, thank you very much.
- BOB SWEENEY: Good.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And I'm going to turn this off.