Audio Interview, Cindy Burch and Margaret Mary Lau, February 24, 2012

EVELYN BAILEY: OK.

So Cindy, how did you become involved in DI?

Because you're not Catholic, and you're not Episcopalian.

CINDY BURCH: Jim Moran and I were working on a gay mailing

list at the Gay Brotherhood.

And he asked me repeatedly to come,

and he thought that Margaret Mary and I would hit it off

together.

And he asked me to come to church so he could

introduce Margaret Mary to me.

And he said, you know, it's a nice group.

I know you're not Catholic--

I'm Baptist, American Baptist.

But finally I said in September I

would come to the-- he said, come to the first anniversary.

It's like a party.

And we're going to socialize afterwards in the hall

after mass.

And since half of my family is Catholic,

I was familiar with Catholic mass.

And my first relationship with a woman was Catholic.

I understood a lot of the Catholic ceremony and rituals.

So I went to the first anniversary, and it was lovely.

It was a lovely service, friendly people.

I remember feeling warm and greeted

and didn't have to be afraid to be outed.

It was a comfortable space for me

as I was getting comfortable with being gay.

EVELYN BAILEY: Who was on the alter?

Who celebrated that first--

CINDY BURCH: I think John Robins.

EVELYN BAILEY: John Robins, right.

CINDY BURCH: I was attracted also to John Robins' ability

to homilize, give a good homily.

His thoughts and reflections were absolutely wonderful.

And they weren't generated from a gay perspective.

They were just a thought, and he would incorporate how

gay people could relate to it.

It was lovely.

I thought he was excellent, an excellent pastor.

And he was very easygoing, very calm, and very

welcoming and affirming.

I thought John Robins was.

So part of the reason I kept--

I liked Margaret Mary very much.

And we obviously developed a relationship, a lifetime

relationship.

And I kept going to church with her

because it was a comfortable social thing for us to do.

And I enjoyed--

I had been brought up in the church

and gone to church every week.

And I enjoyed.

going to church with Margaret Mary.

EVELYN BAILEY: Did you become involved with the leadership?

Did you take on any leadership role?

CINDY BURCH: No.

I felt that I wasn't Catholic.

I was kind of--

I was coming-- I was a friend of the community.

And I had thought that eventually, I

would go back when groups of American

Baptists and Presbyterians and Methodists

were all getting groups that were forming, that eventually I

would go back and join a group.

I didn't try and make the Catholics be Protestant,

and the Protestant in me did not try and change

what people, the majority of people

who were Catholic and having a mass there were trying to have.

So I was just a bystander kind of.

Just went, and I supported.

I helped with the liturgy and set up for the service.

I was like a worker bee.

I would help make sure that the coffee hour was set up

afterwards.

I would greet-- when Bobby Kennedy came the first time,

I greeted him and said welcome.

And sometimes I would stand at the back of the church

and be a greeter, like we good Protestants do.

We have a little name tag, and we greet people.

Welcome.

MARGARET MARY LAU: Well, we had name tags.

CINDY BURCH: Yeah.

The name tags were the cutest significant thing.

In the beginning, one of the nicknames--

we had good sense of humor.

In the beginning, somebody coined the term

the "flaky flock."

Because I was hearing the Catholic clergy

all say about feeding the sheep, and I am the shepherd.

And the bishop would carry this shepherd's crook.

So it was the shepherds shepherding the sheep.

And so someone nicknamed it the flaky flock.

So I believe Michael Nicosia came up with the idea,

being theatrical, that our name tags should

be in the shape of a sheep with little cotton balls glued

on to it.

MARGARET MARY LAU: We had no cotton balls.

They looked like cotton balls.

CINDY BURCH: OK.

So we wore these little name tags after a while so that--

(phone ringing) Answer it.

All right.

EVELYN BAILEY: When Bob Kennedy came for the first time,

did he have any comments afterward?

Or were you privy to what he kind of thought or--

CINDY BURCH: Ted Auble, who was his friend, who

was a pastor at DI--

I also liked Ted Auble.

After John Robins came Ted Auble.

I remember him as a significant celebrant.

And Ted Auble had a completely different style.

But he was wonderful too.

He was quite charismatic, and he was a powerful speaker.

He was a very emotional speaker.

And John Robins was the antithesis of that.

He was quiet, reflective, comforting, and soothing.

John Robins' most famous sermon to me, or homily,

was on Mother's Day.

I was feeling particularly sad about not being a mother.

And he said, we're all mothers to each other.

And he gave this wonderful homily

about how we all mother and nurture and care

for each other.

And that was a wonderful--

I remember that as one of the significant messages.

So Ted Auble needed to have a substitute.

And I believe he was having difficulty with his superior--

boss--

in the diocese, and they were putting pressure on Ted not

to celebrate with us so much.

Certain priests were given kind of the quiet word.

No, don't get so involved with Dignity.

And so he needed it anyways.

Ted Auble needed a substitute.

And Bob Kennedy came to substitute.

But Bob was very nervous and kind of afraid a little bit,

as all of us were walking through those doors.

We all worried as professionals that we would

be in jeopardy at any time.

And that it subsequently could cost us our careers, our jobs.

So Bob walked in very quietly, and I was in the--

MARGARET MARY LAU: This doesn't need

to be in the interview, does it?

CINDY BURCH: She asked me.

She asked me.

And I said, oh, you're the priest

who's going to say mass for us.

Welcome.

MARGARET MARY LAU: This is the flannel shirt guy.

CINDY BURCH: And he wanted to walk in kind of quietly

and kind of scope out the place first.

And so we, for the rest of our lives, joked about oh,

so you're the priest who's going to say mass today.

Gulp.

But then he went on to deal wonderful.

And he is a different person.

One of the things that I remember

was, after Bob Kennedy served--

said mass for us--

his father died.

And we all, as a group, very quietly and respectfully--

of Dignity-- went to his father's funeral service.

And it was-- his father died suddenly.

It was a shock.

And I wondered to myself how this man who

loved his father so deeply and was in such distress

could have done the service for his father, said the mass.

And even kind of like Ted Kennedy

when he spoke at Bobby Kennedy's funeral.

It was deep and emotional, and it

made me care very much for Bob, Father Bob Kennedy.

But he was delightful, and we would socialize, go out

for dinner together in a group.

And we always had a wonderful time together.

EVELYN BAILEY: Did he--

was there always only one priest who would come every week,

or did you did you rotate?

MARGARET MARY LAU: We had visiting priests.

Like if Bob couldn't be there, (unintelligible)

Ted couldn't be there, they got friends of theirs

from the seminary, that they knew from seminary, just

friends of theirs that knew the work they were doing,

and they would come and celebrate for us.

There was a priest that was deaf,

and he came and celebrated.

EVELYN BAILEY: Ray Fleming.

CINDY BURCH: Yes.

And Monsignor Cocuzzi.

And they tried to set up kind of a schedule,

but I really think--

MARGARET MARY LAU: Tom Moll I think.

CINDY BURCH: Tom Moll came.

Yes.

I think of him every time I see him on mass on Sunday morning.

And I think, Tom, you're a good guy.

MARGARET MARY LAU: Who are host of Dan O'Shea?

CINDY BURCH: Yeah.

And then sometimes we asked Sister Claude to do an--

is it agape?

MARGARET MARY LAU: Yeah.

CINDY BURCH: Sister Claude was really a unifying chaplain.

There were rotating priests and clergy.

And Bruce Hanson.

But the main stem, the trunk of the tree, was Claude.

And she was there most of the time.

And then later on, sister Cheryl--

Cher-- came.

And then Kay Hevron became active.

But that was after we left.

MARGARET MARY LAU: They were Joe's, St. Joseph.

CINDY BURCH: But Claude, Sister Claude, was Mercy.

She was a Mercy nun.

And she was the one who stood up at city council

and spoke at city council.

Was a powerful speaker, and I think you

have a record of her speech.

And it was such a volatile night.

People, ignorant people, were screaming disrespectfully,

rudely, at her.

And she had never--

she had grown up in Rochester and had never realized

how very vicious and ugly people can be when they're upset.

And after she gave the speech, I was escorting her out.

And she was just--

a woman came up and screamed in her face.

And she was so taken aback and so startled by the experience.

I think she went into a little bit of shock.

And she just said, I've never--

I can't believe people are like this.

So she realized all along the force of discrimination

and of hatred and of misunderstanding.

And Claude would always say to me, we have to dispel--

we have to identify the common myths

about homosexuality and gay people,

and we have to dispel those myths.

And we do it by speaking to people calmly, peacefully,

and truthfully.

But we need to speak about it.

We need to speak out about it.

And so I would help speak out.

If there were a nun's group that she'd ask us to come and speak

to, or different groups of people

in religious communities, committees,

we would go and speak to them to dispel the myths

and to educate and to inform so that people

could make good decisions and could know

about this very issue that was all shrouded in secrecy

so that they could understand better,

and they would come to form their own truths.

EVELYN BAILEY: Did you ever speak directly to the bishop?

CINDY BURCH: No.

EVELYN BAILEY: Either bishop?

Episcopalian or--

CINDY BURCH: No.

Because again, I wasn't Catholic.

So I was downstairs in the basement at JR and Leo's

while the bishop came in and Sister Hilaire--

and as it turns out, this is such a small world.

Our neighbor down the street of where we've lived for twenty

years was a close cousin of Sister Hilaire's.

And I said, well I know Sister Hilaire.

She said, yes?

How did you?

I said, well, in the beginning, when

we spoke and Hilaire was in charge

of certain things in the diocese--

MARGARET MARY LAU: She became the liaison after a while.

CINDY BURCH: She became the liaison to Dignity.

MARGARET MARY LAU: Diocese-- she was like Monsignor Cocuzzi

[? urban ?] minister.

I'm not sure what the title was.

It's somewhere in the record, I'm sure.

CINDY BURCH: We were interested in having dialogue

with the Diocese of Rochester, with the Catholic community.

Any Catholic community or organization,

to just dialogue with them.

Because we felt that they needed information.

And they welcomed it.

They really didn't want to have an official recognition.

But finally-- we're persistent.

We were respectfully persistent.

Always respectfully, always persistent.

And said, we need to have you--

we the Catholics in the group were members of the flock.

And you are the shepherds.

And that was kind of a theme of the sheep and the shepherds

and ministering to people who were frightened and broken,

or just didn't understand why they were gay

and very upset about it.

And whose families had rejected them or were alienating them,

or frightened of them that they were perverted and were

going to molest their children, that kind of thing.

So a whole lot in 1976 to 1981 was

about educating and enlightening.

Because in the media, they just reinforced the stereotype

and reinforced the myths.

So Sister Claude and certain people from Dignity would go--

Bill de Stevens, John Keefer--

and some of the parents would go and meet with people

from the diocese and the bishop.

Margaret Mary met with the bishop.

Margaret Mary's sister met with the bishop.

And Margaret Mary went to the installation of Matthew Clark.

And so that was important because it made it official,

to create that--

EVELYN BAILEY: Relationship.

CINDY BURCH: Relationship.

It was like, if you remember Jimmy Carter having

Midge Costanza going into the White--

a gay person actually crossed the threshold of the Oval

Office.

It was a big deal back then.

Well today, we don't even think anything of it.

That's, gratefully, how far we've come.

That would be another thing.

We always had an attitude of gratitude.

We were always very grateful for any forward progress.

And we were patient, patient and respectful.

EVELYN BAILEY: So when you came to DI,

Kevin Scahill was president, was chair, or--

CINDY BURCH: He was probably president

at the first anniversary.

And then Marcia became president.

EVELYN BAILEY: Marcia--

CINDY BURCH: Ketchum.

EVELYN BAILEY: Ketchum.

CINDY BURCH: And then she moved, I believe, to another city

after a while.

Job related or something.

And then we asked Margaret Mary.

Or I didn't ask, but the group asked Margaret Mary.

EVELYN BAILEY: Kevin was still there.

CINDY BURCH: By acclamation.

Because Margaret Mary really was reluctant to do it.

To please as a Catholic and as a founder

and as a spiritual person, to be the spiritual leader.

And we assured her that any grunt work or paperwork

or secretarial work or committee work

would all be taken care of.

It was like she was the titular head.

Could she please do that?

She was very good.

And when she stood up in the front of the church,

I was very impressed by the things

that she said to welcome and affirm

the people that were there.

And they were drawn to her because of her kind spirit.

They felt welcome.

They felt happy to be there.

And she made the focus very clearly.

the focus was on worship.

We were there to worship.

Come one, come all, whatever your background.

We're here to worship and worship God and talk to God.

And the pastors reflected that.

John Robins, Ted Auble, Bob Kennedy, and Claude.

All in the early days, that was a very important thing.

That was why we were there, and we didn't lose sight of that.

We didn't get lost in the rules of the minutia.

We always tried to not be catty, or be the most pleasant,

on our best behavior.

And we all came--

in my growing up, you got dressed up for church.

But on Sunday, it was relaxed.

But it wasn't grubby clothes.

We all dressed.

We were glad to be there.

And we all enjoyed the mass, the liturgy of the word.

But also, we looked forward to the social hour

where we could laugh and talk and have coffee, like all

of us good Protestants do.

Coffee and cookies afterwards.

And then many of us would decide socially to go out to dinner

together.

Because it was 6:30, seven o'clock.

So we would close up the church, and we would all

go out to dinner.

And it was a lovely way to end the weekend.

And it was a wonderful way to be with your own.

Many people of Italian background,

every Sunday you have Sunday pasta at their house.

When I was growing up, a lot of Italian families

or Catholic families would have Sunday family dinner.

And it was a time when the family gathered.

And this was the same kind of feeling.

It was Sunday, and we were gathering for worship,

and then we were socializing together and having

a meal together.

And that was a wonderful thing.

We felt kind of sweetened by the liturgy,

by having spent an hour with God.

And then we went out and socialized.

It was refreshing.

EVELYN BAILEY: How many--

in terms of men and women, were--

you said the group was mostly--

CINDY BURCH: Men.

EVELYN BAILEY: Men.

Were there-- there were a few women.

There had to have been.

Because you and Margaret Mary were there.

CINDY BURCH: We were the mainstay, and we were a couple.

Women-- there were four or five other women,

and then let's say there was a group of thirty people that

kind of came to church.

They were men.

So it was predominantly men.

EVELYN BAILEY: Was Fran Conley and Susan Kuntz--

CINDY BURCH: After a while.

I remember when they came in.

And Fran had been to very conservative university, Bob

Jones, and really had to straighten out a whole bunch

of her emotional feelings.

Many people who came to Dignity had

to resolve self-loathing and the rules of their church

that had persecuted them.

And they had to forgive themself and kind of take a bath

and start anew spiritually.

I think most of us had to do that.

Because you were told gay was bad, perverse, not right.

And God didn't love you.

So many people had to heal and forgive themself and not

self-deprecate, and then be able to grow in their love,

in their walk with God.

Their life walk.

EVELYN BAILEY: So when did Kevin Scahill

CINDY BURCH: Leave?

EVELYN BAILEY: Leave.

CINDY BURCH: Now that--

MARGARET MARY LAU: '77, '78, I want

to say, somewhere around there.

EVELYN BAILEY: And who became the president or the--

MARGARET MARY LAU: Marcia Ketchum.

EVELYN BAILEY: Marge.

CINDY BURCH: She was the second.

Margaret Mary was the third.

And in that third year, a lot happened.

They met with the bishop.

The bishop really wanted to dissolve Dignity,

and he was having trouble not allowing people to say mass

at St. Luke's.

And he would have tried to--

from what I remember hearing after the first anniversary,

and I would go with Margaret Mary

to meetings, Dignity meetings, they

would meet in different churches.

I remember being at St. Patrick's one night,

and I remember being at Blessed Sacrament.

And what Kevin and the group who was meeting said,

we're not really welcome.

They're going to roust us wherever we go.

They really don't want a group to be formed.

And they wanted people just to go to mass in their territory

or where they live geographically.

Because that was the way the system was set up.

But they also didn't want to have to--

this was a touchy issue because so many priests were gay.

And we knew that it had been said out loud

that Matthew Clark was sent by Rome to clamp down

and to get rid of Dignity in Rochester.

So St. Luke's became that little safe haven

because it was Episcopal.

And we started-- we asked for a room to meet in.

And then that became--

there was an office there.

That became the place where people

met to decide on the service.

And the service was really the focal point.

It wasn't-- there were many groups that came and went

around the country.

And if it were a social group, it faded very quickly.

What I think Dignity's longevity can be attributed to

is that the purpose was to go to church, was to worship God.

There's a very clear--

and Kevin really set the tone for that.

Margaret Mary set the tone for that.

That once a week, like all good Catholics,

we believe that we should go and worship and take communion.

EVELYN BAILEY: Who took over after Margaret Mary?

CINDY BURCH: Bill de Stevens.

Then Bill-- when Kevin left, then Bill de Stevens, who was--

MARGARET MARY LAU: Just recently (unintelligible)

Because he didn't know (unintelligible).

CINDY BURCH: And very organized and very competent.

And his job at Kodak was in personnel.

So he fit very well into running meetings, a monthly meeting.

And usually the meetings were after mass.

And they tried to keep it as succinct as possible.

And they would go and talk about the things

that needed to be talked about.

Who was saying the liturgy, who was the host and the wine,

and the things that evolved, the music.

Those were things that were primary.

Then who was going to get the coffee and cookies for coffee

hour, and any social speaking engagements that

were going-- any activities that had to do with Dignity.

Also addressing the political rules.

There were laws against gay people.

And how we could address politically,

through the Catholic venue, through the church venue,

how it could be addressed.

Because there was a Catholic lobbyist in Albany

who was very homophobic.

And a lot of money was spent by him to block any legislation.

EVELYN BAILEY: Do you recall his name?

CINDY BURCH: No.

But Tim Sally would.

Tim Sally found out about it, about this lobbyist.

And once he was exposed, he was asked to leave.

And the gay laws were passed.

It was kind of--

that was significant.

And also, our job, we felt, was to quietly and respectfully

address the needs of gay Catholics in Rochester.

And we gave information to the Catholic Diocese,

the people who ran the diocese.

We gave information that if one in ten people were gay, then

you're dealing with at least 300,000 gay people.

And that's a significant population.

MARGARET MARY LAU: Thirty-- thirty.

There were 300,000.

CINDY BURCH: 10 percent of 300,000, or of--

I'm sorry, you're right, 30,000.

My statistic is wrong.

And that's a significant piece.

MARGARET MARY LAU: And all of their families.

CINDY BURCH: It's a minority.

And at the time, Hispanics, African Americans,

different groups--

women issues-- were being addressed.

And we wanted to be on the agenda,

that we were a significant group of people.

Not we, me.

But the gay Catholics.

And the issues were about losing their jobs and about

misinformation and a need for education

and to address the issue.

The big issue always in every church is the issue of sin.

Is being gay a sin?

That was the huge piece.

And it was-- they would use certain texts of the Bible

to flog--

and especially Sodom and Gomorrah,

which is really the sin of rape and inhospitality,

not of homosexuality.

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

CINDY BURCH: So once we repeated and helped the people break

through this veil of confusion, of misinformation,

of uneducation, then people began to understand and talk

about the issue of sin.

If it's genetic, like being left handed, is it sinful?

Do you really choose?

It's not a lifestyle.

Did you choose to be gay?

Were all the big hot button topics.

And they were addressed.

Calmly, quietly.

We had found-- and I told you before--

that if we were angry and impolite, no one heard us.

But if we were quiet and patient and respectful

and didn't expect change to occur instantaneously,

then over time we knew that good change would occur,

and people would get more comfortable.

And we could all commune together.

People would understand gay people

and not be so afraid of them and respect their right

to be a person so that they wouldn't lose their jobs.

And that they did love God, and that they could come and take

communion.

and participate in the Eucharist, which was--

Margaret Mary told me the biggest

piece in a Catholic service is the Eucharist.

EVELYN BAILEY: Talk to me a little bit

about the different denominations

of the people who would come.

There were Episcopals, I'm sure, attending Catholic services.

But how were the other denominations in Rochester

open to having a gay organization or a gay group

for worship or that sort of--

CINDY BURCH: Since there were so many gay Catholics,

there was more of a need for people to worship.

Also, Catholics, as I understand it,

were required to go to church once a week.

That was the big thing.

We have to go to church once a week.

And so they felt a need and a pressure to go to church.

And so they felt--

the gay Catholics that I talked to

felt the need to form a group where they could be comfortable

going to church.

And Protestants were spread out all over in many denominations

and really hadn't organized or didn't

have the numbers to organize.

After Dignity started, there were a few Episcopalians.

A few.

And always were a few Episcopalians.

And as people in the gay community

found out that there was a place to go to church where they

would feel that they were comfortable and safe,

and they could go to a service, they would come.

Protestants would come.

All people from the gay community would come.

And slowly, from Dignity came Dignity-Integrity.

And then little groups in the Presbyterian church

started up downtown.

Presbyterian and Third Presbyterian Church

started groups where they would go

to the general service in the church, the worship service,

but then they would have like a caucus or committee where

they would meet and socialize separately

than the church service.

What was unique about Dignity and DI was you came to church,

and you socialized right after.

The whole-- it would be like going to an Hispanic service

where everything was in Spanish, and then you

could socialize in Spanish.

Going to Dignity, you were all--

the majority were Catholic.

They understood the Catholic tradition.

And then they socialized as Catholics socialized.

They didn't have to be separate, have a separate socialization

time and place.

And so then Baptists, gay people who were American Baptists,

started going to Lake Avenue Baptist Church.

Then the Presbyterians had downtown.

I don't know much about Methodists,

but Methodists were pretty anti-gay at the time.

And--

MARGARET MARY LAU: Then MCC came.

CINDY BURCH: Then Metropolitan Community Church started up.

And many people of an ecumenical--

MARGARET MARY LAU: Non-Catholic.

CINDY BURCH: Non-Catholic started.

Now, the reason I continued to go to Dignity

and not went over to MCC, Metropolitan,

was because I was madly in love with Margaret Mary.

And still am.

And I was in relationship, and it was fine with me

to go to a church service when I wanted to.

I didn't feel that I had--

Baptists don't have to go like Catholics

felt that they had to go.

The rules are different.

And I felt free and comfortable to take the Eucharist,

to take the body and blood of Christ.

So I felt welcome there.

And anyone was welcome to take the Eucharist.

MARGARET MARY LAU: Mm-hm.

EVELYN BAILEY: Can you talk a little bit

about racially, was the community primarily

white, Caucasian--

CINDY BURCH: Middle class.

EVELYN BAILEY: Hispanic, African American?

Were there any--

MARGARET MARY LAU: There were some African American people.

CINDY BURCH: There were a few, but--

MARGARET MARY LAU: And a few Hispanic people.

But very few until after we left, I think.

CINDY BURCH: Some transgendered people.

MARGARET MARY LAU: Early days.

CINDY BURCH: People struggling with an identity, many people

came.

Even if they weren't gay, they came

because they felt welcomed.

MARGARET MARY LAU: Yeah.

CINDY BURCH: Many Hispanics had a language issue.

And there were a few.

And many chose to stick with their minority.

African Americans, their gospel style of worshipping,

many of them.

Our traditions were so different that they didn't always--

it was bad enough--

one guy said it was bad enough to be African American,

and the African Americans hated gay people.

So he felt doubly entrenched.

And so they did not come to this.

A few did, but this was mostly young twenties,

to twenty-five to forty-year-olds working,

many professional, middle class, white, suburban

and urban, mostly males.

And very nice people.

Just a bunch of nice people who wanted to feel comfortable

going to a worship service.

So I felt comfortable there.

My grandmother came.

Margaret Mary's parents came to mass.

And they were-- it's funny, the parents and friends

that came to mass on Sunday were delighted.

Oh, this is just like everybody else.

They had these visions of what it

would be like to be in a room full of gay people.

And they came and they said, well

these people look like every-- they look normal.

They look like everybody else.

And my grandmother turned to me and said, oh, I'm

delighted to be here.

This is a wonderful-- these people are wonderful.

They're very friendly and just lovely people.

Has your mother been here yet?

I said, no, I haven't asked her to come, grandma.

You were the one who wanted to come.

But it was an education for her.

It was freeing to her.

And many, many parents would come.

And we would make sure that they felt welcomed.

And they could see that it was just

a place where people who were different,

but the same as everybody else, were

coming to socialize together in a comfortable, safe place.

MARGARET MARY LAU: And worship.

CINDY BURCH: And worship.

And the parents--

I will add-- the parents especially

who came were so happy that their children were

going to church, that they were worshipping.

Because that was important to them.

And as a parent, I am very glad when my child goes to church.

So it's an important--

we're Christians.

And that's what's important, is to walk in Jesus' footsteps,

or whatever.

And we also know that the Jewish--

is it a faith?

Can we say the Jewish faith?

EVELYN BAILEY: Sure.

CINDY BURCH: The B'rith Kodesh had a group

and was speaking very positively about gay people, Rabbi Gold.

MARGARET MARY LAU: And Rabbi--

CINDY BURCH: And Hillel--

anyways, at that time there were groups forming there too.

So it was like when things began in America,

and they started establishing groups and institutions.

That was what it was like.

That's what I felt it was like.

It was the beginning of recognizing

this group of people who were different

and who needed to express who they were

and be understood and not be hated.

MARGARET MARY LAU: In that vein, it

was exactly what I was thinking as you

were speaking, about the demographics of the people,

and were there any African Americans.

At the time, the African Americans that I encountered

were very few at Dignity-Integrity,

perhaps because of what Cindy was saying.

The idea of Catholic mass had no appeal for them whatsoever.

And they were either still going to their churches closeted,

or they had given up or just dismissed the idea of church.

The ones that I encountered were socially

in the normal social places, which were bars, where they--

or at someone's home at a party.

Or just a cocktail party or whatever.

And they were-- even so, they were still not representative

of the amount of gay people present in the African American

community.

There were no 10 percent or 12 percent representative.

Even in Rochester, which we like to think--

we as Caucasians like to think--

is the home of freedom and the Underground Railroad

and Frederick Douglass and Susan B.

And we are an ivory tower in our state.

We are, as sometimes people like to dismiss that, as being,

OK, Frederick Douglass lived here, blah blah.

Major major.

I grab it and I shake it around, and I say, she's on the coin,

you know.

And he said this, and he said that.

And even so, we had a race riot before Watts had one.

And I knew what the Caucasians were doing

as far as the black community.

The black community was organizing,

but we were at a time--

in the early '70s, mid '70s, we were only a decade away

from the race riots.

CINDY BURCH: And the separation.

And there was redlining.

You know what I mean by redlining in real estate still.

So there were communities.

And there wasn't a lot of crossover.

MARGARET MARY LAU: And if you were gay and African American,

it was very rare.

CINDY BURCH: You mostly hid that.

Many African Americans said, I just

didn't bring it up to my family.

MARGARET MARY LAU: So actually, as a demographic,

it was probably representative of how many people

were out at the time in the African American community that

were present at DI.

EVELYN BAILEY: Had PFLAG formed?

CINDY BURCH: It was forming.

It was forming in those early years.

EVELYN BAILEY: Parents and Friends of Lesbians And--

CINDY BURCH: I thought you were talking about Presbyterians.

I'm sorry.

What's the Presbyterian group called?

MARGARET MARY LAU: PLGC--

CINDY BURCH: PLGC--

MARGARET MARY LAU: Presbyterians for Lesbian for Gay Concerns.

CINDY BURCH: Was getting started nationally.

So all these groups were getting a national start

and talking to one another.

EVELYN BAILEY: So would you say that the energy of openness

was beginning to take root and provide

the environment in which people felt freer to be who they were,

to be gay, to be out?

Not in the community necessarily,

but within a closed herd.

CINDY BURCH: People were getting comfortable with themself.

And I think most people--

and me included-- once they had gotten right with God,

and had decided that God loved them again,

that he never stopped loving them,

and that they weren't bad people,

and they developed a personal relationship with God,

they felt a lot better about themself.

And Dignity helped them do that, feel good about that.

And then parents wanted to understand their children

better.

And Parents and Friends of Gays grew out of Dignity

because many of the Dignity people and their parents helped

started--

and the meetings were at St. Luke's.

And Sister Cher was a chaplain, and was the next stage.

Level-- stage two.

That came on, and that wasn't the early years.

The early years were Claude, although Claude was

still an active force always.

But then you had this new group of people coming in.

EVELYN BAILEY: I don't want to not include--

I did forget that you met with the bishop.

It was you and

CINDY BURCH: Your sister Pauline and John Keefer.

And I don't know if Sister Hilaire was there.

MARGARET MARY LAU: No.

Well, she wasn't at JR and Leo's, but when he first came,

our first meeting was out at the diocesan office.

It was in his office.

Kevin.

Must have been Kevin.

Although--

EVELYN BAILEY: Just Kevin?

MARGARET MARY LAU: And myself and maybe my sister.

Was my sister there or was she--

CINDY BURCH: She was at

MARGARET MARY LAU: John--

CINDY BURCH: John Keefer and Leo.

JR and Leo.

MARGARET MARY LAU: That was a few years ago.

CINDY BURCH: Because I was there.

I was just in another--

I was in the basement socializing with some people.

And we were helping to serve.

But we stayed away from the living room

where they were meeting.

But I remember seeing and hearing the people coming in

and stuff.

Out

MARGARET MARY LAU: I don't know if Clause was there or not.

CINDY BURCH: Oh, I'm sure Claude was there.

But I'm sure she was.

She helped facilitate--

MARGARET MARY LAU: But she was the type of person

who would say, you need to go in and tell him.

And I'm going to stay out here.

CINDY BURCH: But she--

MARGARET MARY LAU: There was a group of us sitting

around waiting to go in.

I remember being in an ante room you know

talking with John Mulligan.

CINDY BURCH: Claude was there.

MARGARET MARY LAU: But I don't know whether she

came into the meeting.

CINDY BURCH: And Claude--

MARGARET MARY LAU: (unintelligible) John Mulligan