Audio Interview, Cindy Burch and Margaret Mary Lau, February 24, 2012

  • EVELYN BAILEY: OK.
  • So Cindy, how did you become involved in DI?
  • Because you're not Catholic, and you're not Episcopalian.
  • CINDY BURCH: Jim Moran and I were working on a gay mailing
  • list at the Gay Brotherhood.
  • And he asked me repeatedly to come,
  • and he thought that Margaret Mary and I would hit it off
  • together.
  • And he asked me to come to church so he could
  • introduce Margaret Mary to me.
  • And he said, you know, it's a nice group.
  • I know you're not Catholic--
  • I'm Baptist, American Baptist.
  • But finally I said in September I
  • would come to the-- he said, come to the first anniversary.
  • It's like a party.
  • And we're going to socialize afterwards in the hall
  • after mass.
  • And since half of my family is Catholic,
  • I was familiar with Catholic mass.
  • And my first relationship with a woman was Catholic.
  • I understood a lot of the Catholic ceremony and rituals.
  • So I went to the first anniversary, and it was lovely.
  • It was a lovely service, friendly people.
  • I remember feeling warm and greeted
  • and didn't have to be afraid to be outed.
  • It was a comfortable space for me
  • as I was getting comfortable with being gay.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Who was on the alter?
  • Who celebrated that first--
  • CINDY BURCH: I think John Robins.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: John Robins, right.
  • CINDY BURCH: I was attracted also to John Robins' ability
  • to homilize, give a good homily.
  • His thoughts and reflections were absolutely wonderful.
  • And they weren't generated from a gay perspective.
  • They were just a thought, and he would incorporate how
  • gay people could relate to it.
  • It was lovely.
  • I thought he was excellent, an excellent pastor.
  • And he was very easygoing, very calm, and very
  • welcoming and affirming.
  • I thought John Robins was.
  • So part of the reason I kept--
  • I liked Margaret Mary very much.
  • And we obviously developed a relationship, a lifetime
  • relationship.
  • And I kept going to church with her
  • because it was a comfortable social thing for us to do.
  • And I enjoyed--
  • I had been brought up in the church
  • and gone to church every week.
  • And I enjoyed.
  • going to church with Margaret Mary.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Did you become involved with the leadership?
  • Did you take on any leadership role?
  • CINDY BURCH: No.
  • I felt that I wasn't Catholic.
  • I was kind of--
  • I was coming-- I was a friend of the community.
  • And I had thought that eventually, I
  • would go back when groups of American
  • Baptists and Presbyterians and Methodists
  • were all getting groups that were forming, that eventually I
  • would go back and join a group.
  • I didn't try and make the Catholics be Protestant,
  • and the Protestant in me did not try and change
  • what people, the majority of people
  • who were Catholic and having a mass there were trying to have.
  • So I was just a bystander kind of.
  • Just went, and I supported.
  • I helped with the liturgy and set up for the service.
  • I was like a worker bee.
  • I would help make sure that the coffee hour was set up
  • afterwards.
  • I would greet-- when Bobby Kennedy came the first time,
  • I greeted him and said welcome.
  • And sometimes I would stand at the back of the church
  • and be a greeter, like we good Protestants do.
  • We have a little name tag, and we greet people.
  • Welcome.
  • MARGARET MARY LAU: Well, we had name tags.
  • CINDY BURCH: Yeah.
  • The name tags were the cutest significant thing.
  • In the beginning, one of the nicknames--
  • we had good sense of humor.
  • In the beginning, somebody coined the term
  • the "flaky flock."
  • Because I was hearing the Catholic clergy
  • all say about feeding the sheep, and I am the shepherd.
  • And the bishop would carry this shepherd's crook.
  • So it was the shepherds shepherding the sheep.
  • And so someone nicknamed it the flaky flock.
  • So I believe Michael Nicosia came up with the idea,
  • being theatrical, that our name tags should
  • be in the shape of a sheep with little cotton balls glued
  • on to it.
  • MARGARET MARY LAU: We had no cotton balls.
  • They looked like cotton balls.
  • CINDY BURCH: OK.
  • So we wore these little name tags after a while so that--
  • (phone ringing) Answer it.
  • All right.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: When Bob Kennedy came for the first time,
  • did he have any comments afterward?
  • Or were you privy to what he kind of thought or--
  • CINDY BURCH: Ted Auble, who was his friend, who
  • was a pastor at DI--
  • I also liked Ted Auble.
  • After John Robins came Ted Auble.
  • I remember him as a significant celebrant.
  • And Ted Auble had a completely different style.
  • But he was wonderful too.
  • He was quite charismatic, and he was a powerful speaker.
  • He was a very emotional speaker.
  • And John Robins was the antithesis of that.
  • He was quiet, reflective, comforting, and soothing.
  • John Robins' most famous sermon to me, or homily,
  • was on Mother's Day.
  • I was feeling particularly sad about not being a mother.
  • And he said, we're all mothers to each other.
  • And he gave this wonderful homily
  • about how we all mother and nurture and care
  • for each other.
  • And that was a wonderful--
  • I remember that as one of the significant messages.
  • So Ted Auble needed to have a substitute.
  • And I believe he was having difficulty with his superior--
  • boss--
  • in the diocese, and they were putting pressure on Ted not
  • to celebrate with us so much.
  • Certain priests were given kind of the quiet word.
  • No, don't get so involved with Dignity.
  • And so he needed it anyways.
  • Ted Auble needed a substitute.
  • And Bob Kennedy came to substitute.
  • But Bob was very nervous and kind of afraid a little bit,
  • as all of us were walking through those doors.
  • We all worried as professionals that we would
  • be in jeopardy at any time.
  • And that it subsequently could cost us our careers, our jobs.
  • So Bob walked in very quietly, and I was in the--
  • MARGARET MARY LAU: This doesn't need
  • to be in the interview, does it?
  • CINDY BURCH: She asked me.
  • She asked me.
  • And I said, oh, you're the priest
  • who's going to say mass for us.
  • Welcome.
  • MARGARET MARY LAU: This is the flannel shirt guy.
  • CINDY BURCH: And he wanted to walk in kind of quietly
  • and kind of scope out the place first.
  • And so we, for the rest of our lives, joked about oh,
  • so you're the priest who's going to say mass today.
  • Gulp.
  • But then he went on to deal wonderful.
  • And he is a different person.
  • One of the things that I remember
  • was, after Bob Kennedy served--
  • said mass for us--
  • his father died.
  • And we all, as a group, very quietly and respectfully--
  • of Dignity-- went to his father's funeral service.
  • And it was-- his father died suddenly.
  • It was a shock.
  • And I wondered to myself how this man who
  • loved his father so deeply and was in such distress
  • could have done the service for his father, said the mass.
  • And even kind of like Ted Kennedy
  • when he spoke at Bobby Kennedy's funeral.
  • It was deep and emotional, and it
  • made me care very much for Bob, Father Bob Kennedy.
  • But he was delightful, and we would socialize, go out
  • for dinner together in a group.
  • And we always had a wonderful time together.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Did he--
  • was there always only one priest who would come every week,
  • or did you did you rotate?
  • MARGARET MARY LAU: We had visiting priests.
  • Like if Bob couldn't be there, (unintelligible)
  • Ted couldn't be there, they got friends of theirs
  • from the seminary, that they knew from seminary, just
  • friends of theirs that knew the work they were doing,
  • and they would come and celebrate for us.
  • There was a priest that was deaf,
  • and he came and celebrated.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Ray Fleming.
  • CINDY BURCH: Yes.
  • And Monsignor Cocuzzi.
  • And they tried to set up kind of a schedule,
  • but I really think--
  • MARGARET MARY LAU: Tom Moll I think.
  • CINDY BURCH: Tom Moll came.
  • Yes.
  • I think of him every time I see him on mass on Sunday morning.
  • And I think, Tom, you're a good guy.
  • MARGARET MARY LAU: Who are host of Dan O'Shea?
  • CINDY BURCH: Yeah.
  • And then sometimes we asked Sister Claude to do an--
  • is it agape?
  • MARGARET MARY LAU: Yeah.
  • CINDY BURCH: Sister Claude was really a unifying chaplain.
  • There were rotating priests and clergy.
  • And Bruce Hanson.
  • But the main stem, the trunk of the tree, was Claude.
  • And she was there most of the time.
  • And then later on, sister Cheryl--
  • Cher-- came.
  • And then Kay Hevron became active.
  • But that was after we left.
  • MARGARET MARY LAU: They were Joe's, St. Joseph.
  • CINDY BURCH: But Claude, Sister Claude, was Mercy.
  • She was a Mercy nun.
  • And she was the one who stood up at city council
  • and spoke at city council.
  • Was a powerful speaker, and I think you
  • have a record of her speech.
  • And it was such a volatile night.
  • People, ignorant people, were screaming disrespectfully,
  • rudely, at her.
  • And she had never--
  • she had grown up in Rochester and had never realized
  • how very vicious and ugly people can be when they're upset.
  • And after she gave the speech, I was escorting her out.
  • And she was just--
  • a woman came up and screamed in her face.
  • And she was so taken aback and so startled by the experience.
  • I think she went into a little bit of shock.
  • And she just said, I've never--
  • I can't believe people are like this.
  • So she realized all along the force of discrimination
  • and of hatred and of misunderstanding.
  • And Claude would always say to me, we have to dispel--
  • we have to identify the common myths
  • about homosexuality and gay people,
  • and we have to dispel those myths.
  • And we do it by speaking to people calmly, peacefully,
  • and truthfully.
  • But we need to speak about it.
  • We need to speak out about it.
  • And so I would help speak out.
  • If there were a nun's group that she'd ask us to come and speak
  • to, or different groups of people
  • in religious communities, committees,
  • we would go and speak to them to dispel the myths
  • and to educate and to inform so that people
  • could make good decisions and could know
  • about this very issue that was all shrouded in secrecy
  • so that they could understand better,
  • and they would come to form their own truths.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Did you ever speak directly to the bishop?
  • CINDY BURCH: No.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Either bishop?
  • Episcopalian or--
  • CINDY BURCH: No.
  • Because again, I wasn't Catholic.
  • So I was downstairs in the basement at JR and Leo's
  • while the bishop came in and Sister Hilaire--
  • and as it turns out, this is such a small world.
  • Our neighbor down the street of where we've lived for twenty
  • years was a close cousin of Sister Hilaire's.
  • And I said, well I know Sister Hilaire.
  • She said, yes?
  • How did you?
  • I said, well, in the beginning, when
  • we spoke and Hilaire was in charge
  • of certain things in the diocese--
  • MARGARET MARY LAU: She became the liaison after a while.
  • CINDY BURCH: She became the liaison to Dignity.
  • MARGARET MARY LAU: Diocese-- she was like Monsignor Cocuzzi
  • [? urban ?] minister.
  • I'm not sure what the title was.
  • It's somewhere in the record, I'm sure.
  • CINDY BURCH: We were interested in having dialogue
  • with the Diocese of Rochester, with the Catholic community.
  • Any Catholic community or organization,
  • to just dialogue with them.
  • Because we felt that they needed information.
  • And they welcomed it.
  • They really didn't want to have an official recognition.
  • But finally-- we're persistent.
  • We were respectfully persistent.
  • Always respectfully, always persistent.
  • And said, we need to have you--
  • we the Catholics in the group were members of the flock.
  • And you are the shepherds.
  • And that was kind of a theme of the sheep and the shepherds
  • and ministering to people who were frightened and broken,
  • or just didn't understand why they were gay
  • and very upset about it.
  • And whose families had rejected them or were alienating them,
  • or frightened of them that they were perverted and were
  • going to molest their children, that kind of thing.
  • So a whole lot in 1976 to 1981 was
  • about educating and enlightening.
  • Because in the media, they just reinforced the stereotype
  • and reinforced the myths.
  • So Sister Claude and certain people from Dignity would go--
  • Bill de Stevens, John Keefer--
  • and some of the parents would go and meet with people
  • from the diocese and the bishop.
  • Margaret Mary met with the bishop.
  • Margaret Mary's sister met with the bishop.
  • And Margaret Mary went to the installation of Matthew Clark.
  • And so that was important because it made it official,
  • to create that--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Relationship.
  • CINDY BURCH: Relationship.
  • It was like, if you remember Jimmy Carter having
  • Midge Costanza going into the White--
  • a gay person actually crossed the threshold of the Oval
  • Office.
  • It was a big deal back then.
  • Well today, we don't even think anything of it.
  • That's, gratefully, how far we've come.
  • That would be another thing.
  • We always had an attitude of gratitude.
  • We were always very grateful for any forward progress.
  • And we were patient, patient and respectful.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: So when you came to DI,
  • Kevin Scahill was president, was chair, or--
  • CINDY BURCH: He was probably president
  • at the first anniversary.
  • And then Marcia became president.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Marcia--
  • CINDY BURCH: Ketchum.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Ketchum.
  • CINDY BURCH: And then she moved, I believe, to another city
  • after a while.
  • Job related or something.
  • And then we asked Margaret Mary.
  • Or I didn't ask, but the group asked Margaret Mary.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Kevin was still there.
  • CINDY BURCH: By acclamation.
  • Because Margaret Mary really was reluctant to do it.
  • To please as a Catholic and as a founder
  • and as a spiritual person, to be the spiritual leader.
  • And we assured her that any grunt work or paperwork
  • or secretarial work or committee work
  • would all be taken care of.
  • It was like she was the titular head.
  • Could she please do that?
  • She was very good.
  • And when she stood up in the front of the church,
  • I was very impressed by the things
  • that she said to welcome and affirm
  • the people that were there.
  • And they were drawn to her because of her kind spirit.
  • They felt welcome.
  • They felt happy to be there.
  • And she made the focus very clearly.
  • the focus was on worship.
  • We were there to worship.
  • Come one, come all, whatever your background.
  • We're here to worship and worship God and talk to God.
  • And the pastors reflected that.
  • John Robins, Ted Auble, Bob Kennedy, and Claude.
  • All in the early days, that was a very important thing.
  • That was why we were there, and we didn't lose sight of that.
  • We didn't get lost in the rules of the minutia.
  • We always tried to not be catty, or be the most pleasant,
  • on our best behavior.
  • And we all came--
  • in my growing up, you got dressed up for church.
  • But on Sunday, it was relaxed.
  • But it wasn't grubby clothes.
  • We all dressed.
  • We were glad to be there.
  • And we all enjoyed the mass, the liturgy of the word.
  • But also, we looked forward to the social hour
  • where we could laugh and talk and have coffee, like all
  • of us good Protestants do.
  • Coffee and cookies afterwards.
  • And then many of us would decide socially to go out to dinner
  • together.
  • Because it was 6:30, seven o'clock.
  • So we would close up the church, and we would all
  • go out to dinner.
  • And it was a lovely way to end the weekend.
  • And it was a wonderful way to be with your own.
  • Many people of Italian background,
  • every Sunday you have Sunday pasta at their house.
  • When I was growing up, a lot of Italian families
  • or Catholic families would have Sunday family dinner.
  • And it was a time when the family gathered.
  • And this was the same kind of feeling.
  • It was Sunday, and we were gathering for worship,
  • and then we were socializing together and having
  • a meal together.
  • And that was a wonderful thing.
  • We felt kind of sweetened by the liturgy,
  • by having spent an hour with God.
  • And then we went out and socialized.
  • It was refreshing.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: How many--
  • in terms of men and women, were--
  • you said the group was mostly--
  • CINDY BURCH: Men.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Men.
  • Were there-- there were a few women.
  • There had to have been.
  • Because you and Margaret Mary were there.
  • CINDY BURCH: We were the mainstay, and we were a couple.
  • Women-- there were four or five other women,
  • and then let's say there was a group of thirty people that
  • kind of came to church.
  • They were men.
  • So it was predominantly men.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Was Fran Conley and Susan Kuntz--
  • CINDY BURCH: After a while.
  • I remember when they came in.
  • And Fran had been to very conservative university, Bob
  • Jones, and really had to straighten out a whole bunch
  • of her emotional feelings.
  • Many people who came to Dignity had
  • to resolve self-loathing and the rules of their church
  • that had persecuted them.
  • And they had to forgive themself and kind of take a bath
  • and start anew spiritually.
  • I think most of us had to do that.
  • Because you were told gay was bad, perverse, not right.
  • And God didn't love you.
  • So many people had to heal and forgive themself and not
  • self-deprecate, and then be able to grow in their love,
  • in their walk with God.
  • Their life walk.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: So when did Kevin Scahill
  • CINDY BURCH: Leave?
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Leave.
  • CINDY BURCH: Now that--
  • MARGARET MARY LAU: '77, '78, I want
  • to say, somewhere around there.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And who became the president or the--
  • MARGARET MARY LAU: Marcia Ketchum.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Marge.
  • CINDY BURCH: She was the second.
  • Margaret Mary was the third.
  • And in that third year, a lot happened.
  • They met with the bishop.
  • The bishop really wanted to dissolve Dignity,
  • and he was having trouble not allowing people to say mass
  • at St. Luke's.
  • And he would have tried to--
  • from what I remember hearing after the first anniversary,
  • and I would go with Margaret Mary
  • to meetings, Dignity meetings, they
  • would meet in different churches.
  • I remember being at St. Patrick's one night,
  • and I remember being at Blessed Sacrament.
  • And what Kevin and the group who was meeting said,
  • we're not really welcome.
  • They're going to roust us wherever we go.
  • They really don't want a group to be formed.
  • And they wanted people just to go to mass in their territory
  • or where they live geographically.
  • Because that was the way the system was set up.
  • But they also didn't want to have to--
  • this was a touchy issue because so many priests were gay.
  • And we knew that it had been said out loud
  • that Matthew Clark was sent by Rome to clamp down
  • and to get rid of Dignity in Rochester.
  • So St. Luke's became that little safe haven
  • because it was Episcopal.
  • And we started-- we asked for a room to meet in.
  • And then that became--
  • there was an office there.
  • That became the place where people
  • met to decide on the service.
  • And the service was really the focal point.
  • It wasn't-- there were many groups that came and went
  • around the country.
  • And if it were a social group, it faded very quickly.
  • What I think Dignity's longevity can be attributed to
  • is that the purpose was to go to church, was to worship God.
  • There's a very clear--
  • and Kevin really set the tone for that.
  • Margaret Mary set the tone for that.
  • That once a week, like all good Catholics,
  • we believe that we should go and worship and take communion.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Who took over after Margaret Mary?
  • CINDY BURCH: Bill de Stevens.
  • Then Bill-- when Kevin left, then Bill de Stevens, who was--
  • MARGARET MARY LAU: Just recently (unintelligible)
  • Because he didn't know (unintelligible).
  • CINDY BURCH: And very organized and very competent.
  • And his job at Kodak was in personnel.
  • So he fit very well into running meetings, a monthly meeting.
  • And usually the meetings were after mass.
  • And they tried to keep it as succinct as possible.
  • And they would go and talk about the things
  • that needed to be talked about.
  • Who was saying the liturgy, who was the host and the wine,
  • and the things that evolved, the music.
  • Those were things that were primary.
  • Then who was going to get the coffee and cookies for coffee
  • hour, and any social speaking engagements that
  • were going-- any activities that had to do with Dignity.
  • Also addressing the political rules.
  • There were laws against gay people.
  • And how we could address politically,
  • through the Catholic venue, through the church venue,
  • how it could be addressed.
  • Because there was a Catholic lobbyist in Albany
  • who was very homophobic.
  • And a lot of money was spent by him to block any legislation.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Do you recall his name?
  • CINDY BURCH: No.
  • But Tim Sally would.
  • Tim Sally found out about it, about this lobbyist.
  • And once he was exposed, he was asked to leave.
  • And the gay laws were passed.
  • It was kind of--
  • that was significant.
  • And also, our job, we felt, was to quietly and respectfully
  • address the needs of gay Catholics in Rochester.
  • And we gave information to the Catholic Diocese,
  • the people who ran the diocese.
  • We gave information that if one in ten people were gay, then
  • you're dealing with at least 300,000 gay people.
  • And that's a significant population.
  • MARGARET MARY LAU: Thirty-- thirty.
  • There were 300,000.
  • CINDY BURCH: 10 percent of 300,000, or of--
  • I'm sorry, you're right, 30,000.
  • My statistic is wrong.
  • And that's a significant piece.
  • MARGARET MARY LAU: And all of their families.
  • CINDY BURCH: It's a minority.
  • And at the time, Hispanics, African Americans,
  • different groups--
  • women issues-- were being addressed.
  • And we wanted to be on the agenda,
  • that we were a significant group of people.
  • Not we, me.
  • But the gay Catholics.
  • And the issues were about losing their jobs and about
  • misinformation and a need for education
  • and to address the issue.
  • The big issue always in every church is the issue of sin.
  • Is being gay a sin?
  • That was the huge piece.
  • And it was-- they would use certain texts of the Bible
  • to flog--
  • and especially Sodom and Gomorrah,
  • which is really the sin of rape and inhospitality,
  • not of homosexuality.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
  • CINDY BURCH: So once we repeated and helped the people break
  • through this veil of confusion, of misinformation,
  • of uneducation, then people began to understand and talk
  • about the issue of sin.
  • If it's genetic, like being left handed, is it sinful?
  • Do you really choose?
  • It's not a lifestyle.
  • Did you choose to be gay?
  • Were all the big hot button topics.
  • And they were addressed.
  • Calmly, quietly.
  • We had found-- and I told you before--
  • that if we were angry and impolite, no one heard us.
  • But if we were quiet and patient and respectful
  • and didn't expect change to occur instantaneously,
  • then over time we knew that good change would occur,
  • and people would get more comfortable.
  • And we could all commune together.
  • People would understand gay people
  • and not be so afraid of them and respect their right
  • to be a person so that they wouldn't lose their jobs.
  • And that they did love God, and that they could come and take
  • communion.
  • and participate in the Eucharist, which was--
  • Margaret Mary told me the biggest
  • piece in a Catholic service is the Eucharist.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Talk to me a little bit
  • about the different denominations
  • of the people who would come.
  • There were Episcopals, I'm sure, attending Catholic services.
  • But how were the other denominations in Rochester
  • open to having a gay organization or a gay group
  • for worship or that sort of--
  • CINDY BURCH: Since there were so many gay Catholics,
  • there was more of a need for people to worship.
  • Also, Catholics, as I understand it,
  • were required to go to church once a week.
  • That was the big thing.
  • We have to go to church once a week.
  • And so they felt a need and a pressure to go to church.
  • And so they felt--
  • the gay Catholics that I talked to
  • felt the need to form a group where they could be comfortable
  • going to church.
  • And Protestants were spread out all over in many denominations
  • and really hadn't organized or didn't
  • have the numbers to organize.
  • After Dignity started, there were a few Episcopalians.
  • A few.
  • And always were a few Episcopalians.
  • And as people in the gay community
  • found out that there was a place to go to church where they
  • would feel that they were comfortable and safe,
  • and they could go to a service, they would come.
  • Protestants would come.
  • All people from the gay community would come.
  • And slowly, from Dignity came Dignity-Integrity.
  • And then little groups in the Presbyterian church
  • started up downtown.
  • Presbyterian and Third Presbyterian Church
  • started groups where they would go
  • to the general service in the church, the worship service,
  • but then they would have like a caucus or committee where
  • they would meet and socialize separately
  • than the church service.
  • What was unique about Dignity and DI was you came to church,
  • and you socialized right after.
  • The whole-- it would be like going to an Hispanic service
  • where everything was in Spanish, and then you
  • could socialize in Spanish.
  • Going to Dignity, you were all--
  • the majority were Catholic.
  • They understood the Catholic tradition.
  • And then they socialized as Catholics socialized.
  • They didn't have to be separate, have a separate socialization
  • time and place.
  • And so then Baptists, gay people who were American Baptists,
  • started going to Lake Avenue Baptist Church.
  • Then the Presbyterians had downtown.
  • I don't know much about Methodists,
  • but Methodists were pretty anti-gay at the time.
  • And--
  • MARGARET MARY LAU: Then MCC came.
  • CINDY BURCH: Then Metropolitan Community Church started up.
  • And many people of an ecumenical--
  • MARGARET MARY LAU: Non-Catholic.
  • CINDY BURCH: Non-Catholic started.
  • Now, the reason I continued to go to Dignity
  • and not went over to MCC, Metropolitan,
  • was because I was madly in love with Margaret Mary.
  • And still am.
  • And I was in relationship, and it was fine with me
  • to go to a church service when I wanted to.
  • I didn't feel that I had--
  • Baptists don't have to go like Catholics
  • felt that they had to go.
  • The rules are different.
  • And I felt free and comfortable to take the Eucharist,
  • to take the body and blood of Christ.
  • So I felt welcome there.
  • And anyone was welcome to take the Eucharist.
  • MARGARET MARY LAU: Mm-hm.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Can you talk a little bit
  • about racially, was the community primarily
  • white, Caucasian--
  • CINDY BURCH: Middle class.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Hispanic, African American?
  • Were there any--
  • MARGARET MARY LAU: There were some African American people.
  • CINDY BURCH: There were a few, but--
  • MARGARET MARY LAU: And a few Hispanic people.
  • But very few until after we left, I think.
  • CINDY BURCH: Some transgendered people.
  • MARGARET MARY LAU: Early days.
  • CINDY BURCH: People struggling with an identity, many people
  • came.
  • Even if they weren't gay, they came
  • because they felt welcomed.
  • MARGARET MARY LAU: Yeah.
  • CINDY BURCH: Many Hispanics had a language issue.
  • And there were a few.
  • And many chose to stick with their minority.
  • African Americans, their gospel style of worshipping,
  • many of them.
  • Our traditions were so different that they didn't always--
  • it was bad enough--
  • one guy said it was bad enough to be African American,
  • and the African Americans hated gay people.
  • So he felt doubly entrenched.
  • And so they did not come to this.
  • A few did, but this was mostly young twenties,
  • to twenty-five to forty-year-olds working,
  • many professional, middle class, white, suburban
  • and urban, mostly males.
  • And very nice people.
  • Just a bunch of nice people who wanted to feel comfortable
  • going to a worship service.
  • So I felt comfortable there.
  • My grandmother came.
  • Margaret Mary's parents came to mass.
  • And they were-- it's funny, the parents and friends
  • that came to mass on Sunday were delighted.
  • Oh, this is just like everybody else.
  • They had these visions of what it
  • would be like to be in a room full of gay people.
  • And they came and they said, well
  • these people look like every-- they look normal.
  • They look like everybody else.
  • And my grandmother turned to me and said, oh, I'm
  • delighted to be here.
  • This is a wonderful-- these people are wonderful.
  • They're very friendly and just lovely people.
  • Has your mother been here yet?
  • I said, no, I haven't asked her to come, grandma.
  • You were the one who wanted to come.
  • But it was an education for her.
  • It was freeing to her.
  • And many, many parents would come.
  • And we would make sure that they felt welcomed.
  • And they could see that it was just
  • a place where people who were different,
  • but the same as everybody else, were
  • coming to socialize together in a comfortable, safe place.
  • MARGARET MARY LAU: And worship.
  • CINDY BURCH: And worship.
  • And the parents--
  • I will add-- the parents especially
  • who came were so happy that their children were
  • going to church, that they were worshipping.
  • Because that was important to them.
  • And as a parent, I am very glad when my child goes to church.
  • So it's an important--
  • we're Christians.
  • And that's what's important, is to walk in Jesus' footsteps,
  • or whatever.
  • And we also know that the Jewish--
  • is it a faith?
  • Can we say the Jewish faith?
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Sure.
  • CINDY BURCH: The B'rith Kodesh had a group
  • and was speaking very positively about gay people, Rabbi Gold.
  • MARGARET MARY LAU: And Rabbi--
  • CINDY BURCH: And Hillel--
  • anyways, at that time there were groups forming there too.
  • So it was like when things began in America,
  • and they started establishing groups and institutions.
  • That was what it was like.
  • That's what I felt it was like.
  • It was the beginning of recognizing
  • this group of people who were different
  • and who needed to express who they were
  • and be understood and not be hated.
  • MARGARET MARY LAU: In that vein, it
  • was exactly what I was thinking as you
  • were speaking, about the demographics of the people,
  • and were there any African Americans.
  • At the time, the African Americans that I encountered
  • were very few at Dignity-Integrity,
  • perhaps because of what Cindy was saying.
  • The idea of Catholic mass had no appeal for them whatsoever.
  • And they were either still going to their churches closeted,
  • or they had given up or just dismissed the idea of church.
  • The ones that I encountered were socially
  • in the normal social places, which were bars, where they--
  • or at someone's home at a party.
  • Or just a cocktail party or whatever.
  • And they were-- even so, they were still not representative
  • of the amount of gay people present in the African American
  • community.
  • There were no 10 percent or 12 percent representative.
  • Even in Rochester, which we like to think--
  • we as Caucasians like to think--
  • is the home of freedom and the Underground Railroad
  • and Frederick Douglass and Susan B.
  • And we are an ivory tower in our state.
  • We are, as sometimes people like to dismiss that, as being,
  • OK, Frederick Douglass lived here, blah blah.
  • Major major.
  • I grab it and I shake it around, and I say, she's on the coin,
  • you know.
  • And he said this, and he said that.
  • And even so, we had a race riot before Watts had one.
  • And I knew what the Caucasians were doing
  • as far as the black community.
  • The black community was organizing,
  • but we were at a time--
  • in the early '70s, mid '70s, we were only a decade away
  • from the race riots.
  • CINDY BURCH: And the separation.
  • And there was redlining.
  • You know what I mean by redlining in real estate still.
  • So there were communities.
  • And there wasn't a lot of crossover.
  • MARGARET MARY LAU: And if you were gay and African American,
  • it was very rare.
  • CINDY BURCH: You mostly hid that.
  • Many African Americans said, I just
  • didn't bring it up to my family.
  • MARGARET MARY LAU: So actually, as a demographic,
  • it was probably representative of how many people
  • were out at the time in the African American community that
  • were present at DI.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Had PFLAG formed?
  • CINDY BURCH: It was forming.
  • It was forming in those early years.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Parents and Friends of Lesbians And--
  • CINDY BURCH: I thought you were talking about Presbyterians.
  • I'm sorry.
  • What's the Presbyterian group called?
  • MARGARET MARY LAU: PLGC--
  • CINDY BURCH: PLGC--
  • MARGARET MARY LAU: Presbyterians for Lesbian for Gay Concerns.
  • CINDY BURCH: Was getting started nationally.
  • So all these groups were getting a national start
  • and talking to one another.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: So would you say that the energy of openness
  • was beginning to take root and provide
  • the environment in which people felt freer to be who they were,
  • to be gay, to be out?
  • Not in the community necessarily,
  • but within a closed herd.
  • CINDY BURCH: People were getting comfortable with themself.
  • And I think most people--
  • and me included-- once they had gotten right with God,
  • and had decided that God loved them again,
  • that he never stopped loving them,
  • and that they weren't bad people,
  • and they developed a personal relationship with God,
  • they felt a lot better about themself.
  • And Dignity helped them do that, feel good about that.
  • And then parents wanted to understand their children
  • better.
  • And Parents and Friends of Gays grew out of Dignity
  • because many of the Dignity people and their parents helped
  • started--
  • and the meetings were at St. Luke's.
  • And Sister Cher was a chaplain, and was the next stage.
  • Level-- stage two.
  • That came on, and that wasn't the early years.
  • The early years were Claude, although Claude was
  • still an active force always.
  • But then you had this new group of people coming in.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: I don't want to not include--
  • I did forget that you met with the bishop.
  • It was you and
  • CINDY BURCH: Your sister Pauline and John Keefer.
  • And I don't know if Sister Hilaire was there.
  • MARGARET MARY LAU: No.
  • Well, she wasn't at JR and Leo's, but when he first came,
  • our first meeting was out at the diocesan office.
  • It was in his office.
  • Kevin.
  • Must have been Kevin.
  • Although--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Just Kevin?
  • MARGARET MARY LAU: And myself and maybe my sister.
  • Was my sister there or was she--
  • CINDY BURCH: She was at
  • MARGARET MARY LAU: John--
  • CINDY BURCH: John Keefer and Leo.
  • JR and Leo.
  • MARGARET MARY LAU: That was a few years ago.
  • CINDY BURCH: Because I was there.
  • I was just in another--
  • I was in the basement socializing with some people.
  • And we were helping to serve.
  • But we stayed away from the living room
  • where they were meeting.
  • But I remember seeing and hearing the people coming in
  • and stuff.
  • Out
  • MARGARET MARY LAU: I don't know if Clause was there or not.
  • CINDY BURCH: Oh, I'm sure Claude was there.
  • But I'm sure she was.
  • She helped facilitate--
  • MARGARET MARY LAU: But she was the type of person
  • who would say, you need to go in and tell him.
  • And I'm going to stay out here.
  • CINDY BURCH: But she--
  • MARGARET MARY LAU: There was a group of us sitting
  • around waiting to go in.
  • I remember being in an ante room you know
  • talking with John Mulligan.
  • CINDY BURCH: Claude was there.
  • MARGARET MARY LAU: But I don't know whether she
  • came into the meeting.
  • CINDY BURCH: And Claude--
  • MARGARET MARY LAU: (unintelligible) John Mulligan
  • --
  • CINDY BURCH: Was in--
  • MARGARET MARY LAU: Father John Mulligan, yeah.
  • CINDY BURCH: Claude was in the administration of the diocese,
  • and would push, push, press, press, all the people that--
  • MARGARET MARY LAU: She knew the people.
  • CINDY BURCH: That she came in contact in.
  • You really need to-- she would say,
  • you really need to address this.
  • These people have needs.
  • These needs need to be talked about and addressed.
  • And somewhat reluctantly, with the new bishop, the priests,
  • and their own sexuality, and the fact
  • that it was a sexual discussion that had to do with sexuality,
  • it was a little uncomfortable.
  • So Claude kind of pushed and talked and prodded, quietly
  • and respectfully, to get dialogue,
  • to keep the lines of communication going.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: So what was that meeting like?
  • Did you tell, in fact, the bishop
  • what you wanted to tell him?
  • Or did Kevin?
  • CINDY BURCH: This is going to be a minute to think about that.
  • Feeling and emotionally, I was glad to be on the other side
  • of bishop's door.
  • I was glad that he had given us audience
  • and that I could be a face for Dignity-Integrity.
  • I could be the face and the voice
  • for them to say to the bishop, I am a part of your diocese.
  • We are part of your diocese.
  • And I gave him a brief history.
  • We've been here.
  • This is what we do.
  • If I were talking to a parent, I would tell them, we meet at St.
  • Luke's.
  • I'm sure he knew a lot of this stuff.
  • But I was telling him that we are servicing people who
  • haven't been in the walls of a church in many years, people
  • who will weep during the service because they're home.
  • And we also, besides introducing ourselves and letting
  • him know that we had been around for a while,
  • we were saying to him that we wanted
  • to be a part, an official part, of the diocese.
  • Not only recognized by him in his office,
  • but that we wanted to have divisional status, which
  • meant that we would be involved in the life--
  • at a diocesan level, the life of the church.
  • And that we didn't have an agenda per se,
  • but we wanted to participate in the life of what
  • the rest of the diocese was doing.
  • What are you doing missionally?
  • What are you doing--
  • what's coming out of Rome?
  • What are you saying at the cathedral when you speak?
  • Instead of just reading it in the Catholic newspaper.
  • Things happened at the divisional level.
  • And we emphasize the fact that because we knew that divisions
  • required outlays of capital and organizations,
  • we would take care of all of that.
  • That we did not require any funding,
  • and we did not require any administration,
  • other than please let us participate at this level.
  • MARGARET MARY LAU: That's it exactly.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: His response?
  • CINDY BURCH: It was early in his tenure,
  • or he had arrived within that year.
  • And it was something that he needed
  • to pray about and think about.
  • And I'm sure that at that meeting,
  • I came away kind of feeling like he was not
  • going to grant us that status.
  • He was talking to me and saying things that--
  • we're talking around the subject.
  • It wasn't definite whether he had already decided,
  • or it was in truth something he was going to address,
  • that he was going to go-- well, he
  • didn't tell me he was going to go and work at it.
  • He didn't tell me that.
  • But the sense I got from him was that he was a deeply
  • spiritual and prayerful man.
  • And my hope came from the Holy Spirit ,
  • that the Holy Spirit would move this man who was open to him
  • or her, was open to the Spirit.
  • I got the sense of hope, a term I've
  • used earlier, that the door was not going to shut behind me.
  • And I'd never go through it again.
  • That's the feeling.
  • I was not happy that--
  • and this is in retrospect because I'm
  • thinking of a bishop sitting behind his desk looking at me,
  • someone he didn't understand or didn't understand
  • the community and its needs and the major influence
  • he could have in the life, even if it was of one person.
  • And that he was doing it from an administrative standpoint.
  • And what was going to be good for the entire diocese
  • around the issue of gay Catholics.
  • I don't know how much--
  • I haven't a clue how much he knew
  • about the national organization, what
  • he had been told by his superiors, what
  • was his opinion of a gay person or of homosexuality, which
  • was what we were dealing with.
  • But I came out of that meeting knowing in my heart
  • that he was a spiritual man, and that he
  • was going to pray about it.
  • And then, for all intents and purposes, that--
  • I had so much hope and so much--
  • I just had a feeling about this man,
  • that I may have been the only person he was praying
  • for when he was on his knees before he
  • got into bed that night.
  • That I may have been just the one person, or the one
  • organization.
  • Because of all the myriad of things that he had,
  • this huge organization, that that's the feeling I got.
  • That he was in tune with the Spirit.
  • And that gave me boundless hope.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
  • Wow.
  • Well Cindy, thank you.
  • CINDY BURCH: You're welcome, Evelyn.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And thank you, Margaret Mary.
  • MARGARET MARY LAU: You're welcome.