Audio Interview, Cindy Burch and Margaret Mary Lau, February 24, 2012
- EVELYN BAILEY: OK.
- So Cindy, how did you become involved in DI?
- Because you're not Catholic, and you're not Episcopalian.
- CINDY BURCH: Jim Moran and I were working on a gay mailing
- list at the Gay Brotherhood.
- And he asked me repeatedly to come,
- and he thought that Margaret Mary and I would hit it off
- together.
- And he asked me to come to church so he could
- introduce Margaret Mary to me.
- And he said, you know, it's a nice group.
- I know you're not Catholic--
- I'm Baptist, American Baptist.
- But finally I said in September I
- would come to the-- he said, come to the first anniversary.
- It's like a party.
- And we're going to socialize afterwards in the hall
- after mass.
- And since half of my family is Catholic,
- I was familiar with Catholic mass.
- And my first relationship with a woman was Catholic.
- I understood a lot of the Catholic ceremony and rituals.
- So I went to the first anniversary, and it was lovely.
- It was a lovely service, friendly people.
- I remember feeling warm and greeted
- and didn't have to be afraid to be outed.
- It was a comfortable space for me
- as I was getting comfortable with being gay.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Who was on the alter?
- Who celebrated that first--
- CINDY BURCH: I think John Robins.
- EVELYN BAILEY: John Robins, right.
- CINDY BURCH: I was attracted also to John Robins' ability
- to homilize, give a good homily.
- His thoughts and reflections were absolutely wonderful.
- And they weren't generated from a gay perspective.
- They were just a thought, and he would incorporate how
- gay people could relate to it.
- It was lovely.
- I thought he was excellent, an excellent pastor.
- And he was very easygoing, very calm, and very
- welcoming and affirming.
- I thought John Robins was.
- So part of the reason I kept--
- I liked Margaret Mary very much.
- And we obviously developed a relationship, a lifetime
- relationship.
- And I kept going to church with her
- because it was a comfortable social thing for us to do.
- And I enjoyed--
- I had been brought up in the church
- and gone to church every week.
- And I enjoyed.
- going to church with Margaret Mary.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Did you become involved with the leadership?
- Did you take on any leadership role?
- CINDY BURCH: No.
- I felt that I wasn't Catholic.
- I was kind of--
- I was coming-- I was a friend of the community.
- And I had thought that eventually, I
- would go back when groups of American
- Baptists and Presbyterians and Methodists
- were all getting groups that were forming, that eventually I
- would go back and join a group.
- I didn't try and make the Catholics be Protestant,
- and the Protestant in me did not try and change
- what people, the majority of people
- who were Catholic and having a mass there were trying to have.
- So I was just a bystander kind of.
- Just went, and I supported.
- I helped with the liturgy and set up for the service.
- I was like a worker bee.
- I would help make sure that the coffee hour was set up
- afterwards.
- I would greet-- when Bobby Kennedy came the first time,
- I greeted him and said welcome.
- And sometimes I would stand at the back of the church
- and be a greeter, like we good Protestants do.
- We have a little name tag, and we greet people.
- Welcome.
- MARGARET MARY LAU: Well, we had name tags.
- CINDY BURCH: Yeah.
- The name tags were the cutest significant thing.
- In the beginning, one of the nicknames--
- we had good sense of humor.
- In the beginning, somebody coined the term
- the "flaky flock."
- Because I was hearing the Catholic clergy
- all say about feeding the sheep, and I am the shepherd.
- And the bishop would carry this shepherd's crook.
- So it was the shepherds shepherding the sheep.
- And so someone nicknamed it the flaky flock.
- So I believe Michael Nicosia came up with the idea,
- being theatrical, that our name tags should
- be in the shape of a sheep with little cotton balls glued
- on to it.
- MARGARET MARY LAU: We had no cotton balls.
- They looked like cotton balls.
- CINDY BURCH: OK.
- So we wore these little name tags after a while so that--
- (phone ringing) Answer it.
- All right.
- EVELYN BAILEY: When Bob Kennedy came for the first time,
- did he have any comments afterward?
- Or were you privy to what he kind of thought or--
- CINDY BURCH: Ted Auble, who was his friend, who
- was a pastor at DI--
- I also liked Ted Auble.
- After John Robins came Ted Auble.
- I remember him as a significant celebrant.
- And Ted Auble had a completely different style.
- But he was wonderful too.
- He was quite charismatic, and he was a powerful speaker.
- He was a very emotional speaker.
- And John Robins was the antithesis of that.
- He was quiet, reflective, comforting, and soothing.
- John Robins' most famous sermon to me, or homily,
- was on Mother's Day.
- I was feeling particularly sad about not being a mother.
- And he said, we're all mothers to each other.
- And he gave this wonderful homily
- about how we all mother and nurture and care
- for each other.
- And that was a wonderful--
- I remember that as one of the significant messages.
- So Ted Auble needed to have a substitute.
- And I believe he was having difficulty with his superior--
- boss--
- in the diocese, and they were putting pressure on Ted not
- to celebrate with us so much.
- Certain priests were given kind of the quiet word.
- No, don't get so involved with Dignity.
- And so he needed it anyways.
- Ted Auble needed a substitute.
- And Bob Kennedy came to substitute.
- But Bob was very nervous and kind of afraid a little bit,
- as all of us were walking through those doors.
- We all worried as professionals that we would
- be in jeopardy at any time.
- And that it subsequently could cost us our careers, our jobs.
- So Bob walked in very quietly, and I was in the--
- MARGARET MARY LAU: This doesn't need
- to be in the interview, does it?
- CINDY BURCH: She asked me.
- She asked me.
- And I said, oh, you're the priest
- who's going to say mass for us.
- Welcome.
- MARGARET MARY LAU: This is the flannel shirt guy.
- CINDY BURCH: And he wanted to walk in kind of quietly
- and kind of scope out the place first.
- And so we, for the rest of our lives, joked about oh,
- so you're the priest who's going to say mass today.
- Gulp.
- But then he went on to deal wonderful.
- And he is a different person.
- One of the things that I remember
- was, after Bob Kennedy served--
- said mass for us--
- his father died.
- And we all, as a group, very quietly and respectfully--
- of Dignity-- went to his father's funeral service.
- And it was-- his father died suddenly.
- It was a shock.
- And I wondered to myself how this man who
- loved his father so deeply and was in such distress
- could have done the service for his father, said the mass.
- And even kind of like Ted Kennedy
- when he spoke at Bobby Kennedy's funeral.
- It was deep and emotional, and it
- made me care very much for Bob, Father Bob Kennedy.
- But he was delightful, and we would socialize, go out
- for dinner together in a group.
- And we always had a wonderful time together.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Did he--
- was there always only one priest who would come every week,
- or did you did you rotate?
- MARGARET MARY LAU: We had visiting priests.
- Like if Bob couldn't be there, (unintelligible)
- Ted couldn't be there, they got friends of theirs
- from the seminary, that they knew from seminary, just
- friends of theirs that knew the work they were doing,
- and they would come and celebrate for us.
- There was a priest that was deaf,
- and he came and celebrated.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Ray Fleming.
- CINDY BURCH: Yes.
- And Monsignor Cocuzzi.
- And they tried to set up kind of a schedule,
- but I really think--
- MARGARET MARY LAU: Tom Moll I think.
- CINDY BURCH: Tom Moll came.
- Yes.
- I think of him every time I see him on mass on Sunday morning.
- And I think, Tom, you're a good guy.
- MARGARET MARY LAU: Who are host of Dan O'Shea?
- CINDY BURCH: Yeah.
- And then sometimes we asked Sister Claude to do an--
- is it agape?
- MARGARET MARY LAU: Yeah.
- CINDY BURCH: Sister Claude was really a unifying chaplain.
- There were rotating priests and clergy.
- And Bruce Hanson.
- But the main stem, the trunk of the tree, was Claude.
- And she was there most of the time.
- And then later on, sister Cheryl--
- Cher-- came.
- And then Kay Hevron became active.
- But that was after we left.
- MARGARET MARY LAU: They were Joe's, St. Joseph.
- CINDY BURCH: But Claude, Sister Claude, was Mercy.
- She was a Mercy nun.
- And she was the one who stood up at city council
- and spoke at city council.
- Was a powerful speaker, and I think you
- have a record of her speech.
- And it was such a volatile night.
- People, ignorant people, were screaming disrespectfully,
- rudely, at her.
- And she had never--
- she had grown up in Rochester and had never realized
- how very vicious and ugly people can be when they're upset.
- And after she gave the speech, I was escorting her out.
- And she was just--
- a woman came up and screamed in her face.
- And she was so taken aback and so startled by the experience.
- I think she went into a little bit of shock.
- And she just said, I've never--
- I can't believe people are like this.
- So she realized all along the force of discrimination
- and of hatred and of misunderstanding.
- And Claude would always say to me, we have to dispel--
- we have to identify the common myths
- about homosexuality and gay people,
- and we have to dispel those myths.
- And we do it by speaking to people calmly, peacefully,
- and truthfully.
- But we need to speak about it.
- We need to speak out about it.
- And so I would help speak out.
- If there were a nun's group that she'd ask us to come and speak
- to, or different groups of people
- in religious communities, committees,
- we would go and speak to them to dispel the myths
- and to educate and to inform so that people
- could make good decisions and could know
- about this very issue that was all shrouded in secrecy
- so that they could understand better,
- and they would come to form their own truths.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Did you ever speak directly to the bishop?
- CINDY BURCH: No.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Either bishop?
- Episcopalian or--
- CINDY BURCH: No.
- Because again, I wasn't Catholic.
- So I was downstairs in the basement at JR and Leo's
- while the bishop came in and Sister Hilaire--
- and as it turns out, this is such a small world.
- Our neighbor down the street of where we've lived for twenty
- years was a close cousin of Sister Hilaire's.
- And I said, well I know Sister Hilaire.
- She said, yes?
- How did you?
- I said, well, in the beginning, when
- we spoke and Hilaire was in charge
- of certain things in the diocese--
- MARGARET MARY LAU: She became the liaison after a while.
- CINDY BURCH: She became the liaison to Dignity.
- MARGARET MARY LAU: Diocese-- she was like Monsignor Cocuzzi
- [? urban ?] minister.
- I'm not sure what the title was.
- It's somewhere in the record, I'm sure.
- CINDY BURCH: We were interested in having dialogue
- with the Diocese of Rochester, with the Catholic community.
- Any Catholic community or organization,
- to just dialogue with them.
- Because we felt that they needed information.
- And they welcomed it.
- They really didn't want to have an official recognition.
- But finally-- we're persistent.
- We were respectfully persistent.
- Always respectfully, always persistent.
- And said, we need to have you--
- we the Catholics in the group were members of the flock.
- And you are the shepherds.
- And that was kind of a theme of the sheep and the shepherds
- and ministering to people who were frightened and broken,
- or just didn't understand why they were gay
- and very upset about it.
- And whose families had rejected them or were alienating them,
- or frightened of them that they were perverted and were
- going to molest their children, that kind of thing.
- So a whole lot in 1976 to 1981 was
- about educating and enlightening.
- Because in the media, they just reinforced the stereotype
- and reinforced the myths.
- So Sister Claude and certain people from Dignity would go--
- Bill de Stevens, John Keefer--
- and some of the parents would go and meet with people
- from the diocese and the bishop.
- Margaret Mary met with the bishop.
- Margaret Mary's sister met with the bishop.
- And Margaret Mary went to the installation of Matthew Clark.
- And so that was important because it made it official,
- to create that--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Relationship.
- CINDY BURCH: Relationship.
- It was like, if you remember Jimmy Carter having
- Midge Costanza going into the White--
- a gay person actually crossed the threshold of the Oval
- Office.
- It was a big deal back then.
- Well today, we don't even think anything of it.
- That's, gratefully, how far we've come.
- That would be another thing.
- We always had an attitude of gratitude.
- We were always very grateful for any forward progress.
- And we were patient, patient and respectful.
- EVELYN BAILEY: So when you came to DI,
- Kevin Scahill was president, was chair, or--
- CINDY BURCH: He was probably president
- at the first anniversary.
- And then Marcia became president.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Marcia--
- CINDY BURCH: Ketchum.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Ketchum.
- CINDY BURCH: And then she moved, I believe, to another city
- after a while.
- Job related or something.
- And then we asked Margaret Mary.
- Or I didn't ask, but the group asked Margaret Mary.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Kevin was still there.
- CINDY BURCH: By acclamation.
- Because Margaret Mary really was reluctant to do it.
- To please as a Catholic and as a founder
- and as a spiritual person, to be the spiritual leader.
- And we assured her that any grunt work or paperwork
- or secretarial work or committee work
- would all be taken care of.
- It was like she was the titular head.
- Could she please do that?
- She was very good.
- And when she stood up in the front of the church,
- I was very impressed by the things
- that she said to welcome and affirm
- the people that were there.
- And they were drawn to her because of her kind spirit.
- They felt welcome.
- They felt happy to be there.
- And she made the focus very clearly.
- the focus was on worship.
- We were there to worship.
- Come one, come all, whatever your background.
- We're here to worship and worship God and talk to God.
- And the pastors reflected that.
- John Robins, Ted Auble, Bob Kennedy, and Claude.
- All in the early days, that was a very important thing.
- That was why we were there, and we didn't lose sight of that.
- We didn't get lost in the rules of the minutia.
- We always tried to not be catty, or be the most pleasant,
- on our best behavior.
- And we all came--
- in my growing up, you got dressed up for church.
- But on Sunday, it was relaxed.
- But it wasn't grubby clothes.
- We all dressed.
- We were glad to be there.
- And we all enjoyed the mass, the liturgy of the word.
- But also, we looked forward to the social hour
- where we could laugh and talk and have coffee, like all
- of us good Protestants do.
- Coffee and cookies afterwards.
- And then many of us would decide socially to go out to dinner
- together.
- Because it was 6:30, seven o'clock.
- So we would close up the church, and we would all
- go out to dinner.
- And it was a lovely way to end the weekend.
- And it was a wonderful way to be with your own.
- Many people of Italian background,
- every Sunday you have Sunday pasta at their house.
- When I was growing up, a lot of Italian families
- or Catholic families would have Sunday family dinner.
- And it was a time when the family gathered.
- And this was the same kind of feeling.
- It was Sunday, and we were gathering for worship,
- and then we were socializing together and having
- a meal together.
- And that was a wonderful thing.
- We felt kind of sweetened by the liturgy,
- by having spent an hour with God.
- And then we went out and socialized.
- It was refreshing.
- EVELYN BAILEY: How many--
- in terms of men and women, were--
- you said the group was mostly--
- CINDY BURCH: Men.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Men.
- Were there-- there were a few women.
- There had to have been.
- Because you and Margaret Mary were there.
- CINDY BURCH: We were the mainstay, and we were a couple.
- Women-- there were four or five other women,
- and then let's say there was a group of thirty people that
- kind of came to church.
- They were men.
- So it was predominantly men.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Was Fran Conley and Susan Kuntz--
- CINDY BURCH: After a while.
- I remember when they came in.
- And Fran had been to very conservative university, Bob
- Jones, and really had to straighten out a whole bunch
- of her emotional feelings.
- Many people who came to Dignity had
- to resolve self-loathing and the rules of their church
- that had persecuted them.
- And they had to forgive themself and kind of take a bath
- and start anew spiritually.
- I think most of us had to do that.
- Because you were told gay was bad, perverse, not right.
- And God didn't love you.
- So many people had to heal and forgive themself and not
- self-deprecate, and then be able to grow in their love,
- in their walk with God.
- Their life walk.
- EVELYN BAILEY: So when did Kevin Scahill
- CINDY BURCH: Leave?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Leave.
- CINDY BURCH: Now that--
- MARGARET MARY LAU: '77, '78, I want
- to say, somewhere around there.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And who became the president or the--
- MARGARET MARY LAU: Marcia Ketchum.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Marge.
- CINDY BURCH: She was the second.
- Margaret Mary was the third.
- And in that third year, a lot happened.
- They met with the bishop.
- The bishop really wanted to dissolve Dignity,
- and he was having trouble not allowing people to say mass
- at St. Luke's.
- And he would have tried to--
- from what I remember hearing after the first anniversary,
- and I would go with Margaret Mary
- to meetings, Dignity meetings, they
- would meet in different churches.
- I remember being at St. Patrick's one night,
- and I remember being at Blessed Sacrament.
- And what Kevin and the group who was meeting said,
- we're not really welcome.
- They're going to roust us wherever we go.
- They really don't want a group to be formed.
- And they wanted people just to go to mass in their territory
- or where they live geographically.
- Because that was the way the system was set up.
- But they also didn't want to have to--
- this was a touchy issue because so many priests were gay.
- And we knew that it had been said out loud
- that Matthew Clark was sent by Rome to clamp down
- and to get rid of Dignity in Rochester.
- So St. Luke's became that little safe haven
- because it was Episcopal.
- And we started-- we asked for a room to meet in.
- And then that became--
- there was an office there.
- That became the place where people
- met to decide on the service.
- And the service was really the focal point.
- It wasn't-- there were many groups that came and went
- around the country.
- And if it were a social group, it faded very quickly.
- What I think Dignity's longevity can be attributed to
- is that the purpose was to go to church, was to worship God.
- There's a very clear--
- and Kevin really set the tone for that.
- Margaret Mary set the tone for that.
- That once a week, like all good Catholics,
- we believe that we should go and worship and take communion.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Who took over after Margaret Mary?
- CINDY BURCH: Bill de Stevens.
- Then Bill-- when Kevin left, then Bill de Stevens, who was--
- MARGARET MARY LAU: Just recently (unintelligible)
- Because he didn't know (unintelligible).
- CINDY BURCH: And very organized and very competent.
- And his job at Kodak was in personnel.
- So he fit very well into running meetings, a monthly meeting.
- And usually the meetings were after mass.
- And they tried to keep it as succinct as possible.
- And they would go and talk about the things
- that needed to be talked about.
- Who was saying the liturgy, who was the host and the wine,
- and the things that evolved, the music.
- Those were things that were primary.
- Then who was going to get the coffee and cookies for coffee
- hour, and any social speaking engagements that
- were going-- any activities that had to do with Dignity.
- Also addressing the political rules.
- There were laws against gay people.
- And how we could address politically,
- through the Catholic venue, through the church venue,
- how it could be addressed.
- Because there was a Catholic lobbyist in Albany
- who was very homophobic.
- And a lot of money was spent by him to block any legislation.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Do you recall his name?
- CINDY BURCH: No.
- But Tim Sally would.
- Tim Sally found out about it, about this lobbyist.
- And once he was exposed, he was asked to leave.
- And the gay laws were passed.
- It was kind of--
- that was significant.
- And also, our job, we felt, was to quietly and respectfully
- address the needs of gay Catholics in Rochester.
- And we gave information to the Catholic Diocese,
- the people who ran the diocese.
- We gave information that if one in ten people were gay, then
- you're dealing with at least 300,000 gay people.
- And that's a significant population.
- MARGARET MARY LAU: Thirty-- thirty.
- There were 300,000.
- CINDY BURCH: 10 percent of 300,000, or of--
- I'm sorry, you're right, 30,000.
- My statistic is wrong.
- And that's a significant piece.
- MARGARET MARY LAU: And all of their families.
- CINDY BURCH: It's a minority.
- And at the time, Hispanics, African Americans,
- different groups--
- women issues-- were being addressed.
- And we wanted to be on the agenda,
- that we were a significant group of people.
- Not we, me.
- But the gay Catholics.
- And the issues were about losing their jobs and about
- misinformation and a need for education
- and to address the issue.
- The big issue always in every church is the issue of sin.
- Is being gay a sin?
- That was the huge piece.
- And it was-- they would use certain texts of the Bible
- to flog--
- and especially Sodom and Gomorrah,
- which is really the sin of rape and inhospitality,
- not of homosexuality.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- CINDY BURCH: So once we repeated and helped the people break
- through this veil of confusion, of misinformation,
- of uneducation, then people began to understand and talk
- about the issue of sin.
- If it's genetic, like being left handed, is it sinful?
- Do you really choose?
- It's not a lifestyle.
- Did you choose to be gay?
- Were all the big hot button topics.
- And they were addressed.
- Calmly, quietly.
- We had found-- and I told you before--
- that if we were angry and impolite, no one heard us.
- But if we were quiet and patient and respectful
- and didn't expect change to occur instantaneously,
- then over time we knew that good change would occur,
- and people would get more comfortable.
- And we could all commune together.
- People would understand gay people
- and not be so afraid of them and respect their right
- to be a person so that they wouldn't lose their jobs.
- And that they did love God, and that they could come and take
- communion.
- and participate in the Eucharist, which was--
- Margaret Mary told me the biggest
- piece in a Catholic service is the Eucharist.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Talk to me a little bit
- about the different denominations
- of the people who would come.
- There were Episcopals, I'm sure, attending Catholic services.
- But how were the other denominations in Rochester
- open to having a gay organization or a gay group
- for worship or that sort of--
- CINDY BURCH: Since there were so many gay Catholics,
- there was more of a need for people to worship.
- Also, Catholics, as I understand it,
- were required to go to church once a week.
- That was the big thing.
- We have to go to church once a week.
- And so they felt a need and a pressure to go to church.
- And so they felt--
- the gay Catholics that I talked to
- felt the need to form a group where they could be comfortable
- going to church.
- And Protestants were spread out all over in many denominations
- and really hadn't organized or didn't
- have the numbers to organize.
- After Dignity started, there were a few Episcopalians.
- A few.
- And always were a few Episcopalians.
- And as people in the gay community
- found out that there was a place to go to church where they
- would feel that they were comfortable and safe,
- and they could go to a service, they would come.
- Protestants would come.
- All people from the gay community would come.
- And slowly, from Dignity came Dignity-Integrity.
- And then little groups in the Presbyterian church
- started up downtown.
- Presbyterian and Third Presbyterian Church
- started groups where they would go
- to the general service in the church, the worship service,
- but then they would have like a caucus or committee where
- they would meet and socialize separately
- than the church service.
- What was unique about Dignity and DI was you came to church,
- and you socialized right after.
- The whole-- it would be like going to an Hispanic service
- where everything was in Spanish, and then you
- could socialize in Spanish.
- Going to Dignity, you were all--
- the majority were Catholic.
- They understood the Catholic tradition.
- And then they socialized as Catholics socialized.
- They didn't have to be separate, have a separate socialization
- time and place.
- And so then Baptists, gay people who were American Baptists,
- started going to Lake Avenue Baptist Church.
- Then the Presbyterians had downtown.
- I don't know much about Methodists,
- but Methodists were pretty anti-gay at the time.
- And--
- MARGARET MARY LAU: Then MCC came.
- CINDY BURCH: Then Metropolitan Community Church started up.
- And many people of an ecumenical--
- MARGARET MARY LAU: Non-Catholic.
- CINDY BURCH: Non-Catholic started.
- Now, the reason I continued to go to Dignity
- and not went over to MCC, Metropolitan,
- was because I was madly in love with Margaret Mary.
- And still am.
- And I was in relationship, and it was fine with me
- to go to a church service when I wanted to.
- I didn't feel that I had--
- Baptists don't have to go like Catholics
- felt that they had to go.
- The rules are different.
- And I felt free and comfortable to take the Eucharist,
- to take the body and blood of Christ.
- So I felt welcome there.
- And anyone was welcome to take the Eucharist.
- MARGARET MARY LAU: Mm-hm.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Can you talk a little bit
- about racially, was the community primarily
- white, Caucasian--
- CINDY BURCH: Middle class.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Hispanic, African American?
- Were there any--
- MARGARET MARY LAU: There were some African American people.
- CINDY BURCH: There were a few, but--
- MARGARET MARY LAU: And a few Hispanic people.
- But very few until after we left, I think.
- CINDY BURCH: Some transgendered people.
- MARGARET MARY LAU: Early days.
- CINDY BURCH: People struggling with an identity, many people
- came.
- Even if they weren't gay, they came
- because they felt welcomed.
- MARGARET MARY LAU: Yeah.
- CINDY BURCH: Many Hispanics had a language issue.
- And there were a few.
- And many chose to stick with their minority.
- African Americans, their gospel style of worshipping,
- many of them.
- Our traditions were so different that they didn't always--
- it was bad enough--
- one guy said it was bad enough to be African American,
- and the African Americans hated gay people.
- So he felt doubly entrenched.
- And so they did not come to this.
- A few did, but this was mostly young twenties,
- to twenty-five to forty-year-olds working,
- many professional, middle class, white, suburban
- and urban, mostly males.
- And very nice people.
- Just a bunch of nice people who wanted to feel comfortable
- going to a worship service.
- So I felt comfortable there.
- My grandmother came.
- Margaret Mary's parents came to mass.
- And they were-- it's funny, the parents and friends
- that came to mass on Sunday were delighted.
- Oh, this is just like everybody else.
- They had these visions of what it
- would be like to be in a room full of gay people.
- And they came and they said, well
- these people look like every-- they look normal.
- They look like everybody else.
- And my grandmother turned to me and said, oh, I'm
- delighted to be here.
- This is a wonderful-- these people are wonderful.
- They're very friendly and just lovely people.
- Has your mother been here yet?
- I said, no, I haven't asked her to come, grandma.
- You were the one who wanted to come.
- But it was an education for her.
- It was freeing to her.
- And many, many parents would come.
- And we would make sure that they felt welcomed.
- And they could see that it was just
- a place where people who were different,
- but the same as everybody else, were
- coming to socialize together in a comfortable, safe place.
- MARGARET MARY LAU: And worship.
- CINDY BURCH: And worship.
- And the parents--
- I will add-- the parents especially
- who came were so happy that their children were
- going to church, that they were worshipping.
- Because that was important to them.
- And as a parent, I am very glad when my child goes to church.
- So it's an important--
- we're Christians.
- And that's what's important, is to walk in Jesus' footsteps,
- or whatever.
- And we also know that the Jewish--
- is it a faith?
- Can we say the Jewish faith?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Sure.
- CINDY BURCH: The B'rith Kodesh had a group
- and was speaking very positively about gay people, Rabbi Gold.
- MARGARET MARY LAU: And Rabbi--
- CINDY BURCH: And Hillel--
- anyways, at that time there were groups forming there too.
- So it was like when things began in America,
- and they started establishing groups and institutions.
- That was what it was like.
- That's what I felt it was like.
- It was the beginning of recognizing
- this group of people who were different
- and who needed to express who they were
- and be understood and not be hated.
- MARGARET MARY LAU: In that vein, it
- was exactly what I was thinking as you
- were speaking, about the demographics of the people,
- and were there any African Americans.
- At the time, the African Americans that I encountered
- were very few at Dignity-Integrity,
- perhaps because of what Cindy was saying.
- The idea of Catholic mass had no appeal for them whatsoever.
- And they were either still going to their churches closeted,
- or they had given up or just dismissed the idea of church.
- The ones that I encountered were socially
- in the normal social places, which were bars, where they--
- or at someone's home at a party.
- Or just a cocktail party or whatever.
- And they were-- even so, they were still not representative
- of the amount of gay people present in the African American
- community.
- There were no 10 percent or 12 percent representative.
- Even in Rochester, which we like to think--
- we as Caucasians like to think--
- is the home of freedom and the Underground Railroad
- and Frederick Douglass and Susan B.
- And we are an ivory tower in our state.
- We are, as sometimes people like to dismiss that, as being,
- OK, Frederick Douglass lived here, blah blah.
- Major major.
- I grab it and I shake it around, and I say, she's on the coin,
- you know.
- And he said this, and he said that.
- And even so, we had a race riot before Watts had one.
- And I knew what the Caucasians were doing
- as far as the black community.
- The black community was organizing,
- but we were at a time--
- in the early '70s, mid '70s, we were only a decade away
- from the race riots.
- CINDY BURCH: And the separation.
- And there was redlining.
- You know what I mean by redlining in real estate still.
- So there were communities.
- And there wasn't a lot of crossover.
- MARGARET MARY LAU: And if you were gay and African American,
- it was very rare.
- CINDY BURCH: You mostly hid that.
- Many African Americans said, I just
- didn't bring it up to my family.
- MARGARET MARY LAU: So actually, as a demographic,
- it was probably representative of how many people
- were out at the time in the African American community that
- were present at DI.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Had PFLAG formed?
- CINDY BURCH: It was forming.
- It was forming in those early years.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Parents and Friends of Lesbians And--
- CINDY BURCH: I thought you were talking about Presbyterians.
- I'm sorry.
- What's the Presbyterian group called?
- MARGARET MARY LAU: PLGC--
- CINDY BURCH: PLGC--
- MARGARET MARY LAU: Presbyterians for Lesbian for Gay Concerns.
- CINDY BURCH: Was getting started nationally.
- So all these groups were getting a national start
- and talking to one another.
- EVELYN BAILEY: So would you say that the energy of openness
- was beginning to take root and provide
- the environment in which people felt freer to be who they were,
- to be gay, to be out?
- Not in the community necessarily,
- but within a closed herd.
- CINDY BURCH: People were getting comfortable with themself.
- And I think most people--
- and me included-- once they had gotten right with God,
- and had decided that God loved them again,
- that he never stopped loving them,
- and that they weren't bad people,
- and they developed a personal relationship with God,
- they felt a lot better about themself.
- And Dignity helped them do that, feel good about that.
- And then parents wanted to understand their children
- better.
- And Parents and Friends of Gays grew out of Dignity
- because many of the Dignity people and their parents helped
- started--
- and the meetings were at St. Luke's.
- And Sister Cher was a chaplain, and was the next stage.
- Level-- stage two.
- That came on, and that wasn't the early years.
- The early years were Claude, although Claude was
- still an active force always.
- But then you had this new group of people coming in.
- EVELYN BAILEY: I don't want to not include--
- I did forget that you met with the bishop.
- It was you and
- CINDY BURCH: Your sister Pauline and John Keefer.
- And I don't know if Sister Hilaire was there.
- MARGARET MARY LAU: No.
- Well, she wasn't at JR and Leo's, but when he first came,
- our first meeting was out at the diocesan office.
- It was in his office.
- Kevin.
- Must have been Kevin.
- Although--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Just Kevin?
- MARGARET MARY LAU: And myself and maybe my sister.
- Was my sister there or was she--
- CINDY BURCH: She was at
- MARGARET MARY LAU: John--
- CINDY BURCH: John Keefer and Leo.
- JR and Leo.
- MARGARET MARY LAU: That was a few years ago.
- CINDY BURCH: Because I was there.
- I was just in another--
- I was in the basement socializing with some people.
- And we were helping to serve.
- But we stayed away from the living room
- where they were meeting.
- But I remember seeing and hearing the people coming in
- and stuff.
- Out
- MARGARET MARY LAU: I don't know if Clause was there or not.
- CINDY BURCH: Oh, I'm sure Claude was there.
- But I'm sure she was.
- She helped facilitate--
- MARGARET MARY LAU: But she was the type of person
- who would say, you need to go in and tell him.
- And I'm going to stay out here.
- CINDY BURCH: But she--
- MARGARET MARY LAU: There was a group of us sitting
- around waiting to go in.
- I remember being in an ante room you know
- talking with John Mulligan.
- CINDY BURCH: Claude was there.
- MARGARET MARY LAU: But I don't know whether she
- came into the meeting.
- CINDY BURCH: And Claude--
- MARGARET MARY LAU: (unintelligible) John Mulligan
- --
- CINDY BURCH: Was in--
- MARGARET MARY LAU: Father John Mulligan, yeah.
- CINDY BURCH: Claude was in the administration of the diocese,
- and would push, push, press, press, all the people that--
- MARGARET MARY LAU: She knew the people.
- CINDY BURCH: That she came in contact in.
- You really need to-- she would say,
- you really need to address this.
- These people have needs.
- These needs need to be talked about and addressed.
- And somewhat reluctantly, with the new bishop, the priests,
- and their own sexuality, and the fact
- that it was a sexual discussion that had to do with sexuality,
- it was a little uncomfortable.
- So Claude kind of pushed and talked and prodded, quietly
- and respectfully, to get dialogue,
- to keep the lines of communication going.
- EVELYN BAILEY: So what was that meeting like?
- Did you tell, in fact, the bishop
- what you wanted to tell him?
- Or did Kevin?
- CINDY BURCH: This is going to be a minute to think about that.
- Feeling and emotionally, I was glad to be on the other side
- of bishop's door.
- I was glad that he had given us audience
- and that I could be a face for Dignity-Integrity.
- I could be the face and the voice
- for them to say to the bishop, I am a part of your diocese.
- We are part of your diocese.
- And I gave him a brief history.
- We've been here.
- This is what we do.
- If I were talking to a parent, I would tell them, we meet at St.
- Luke's.
- I'm sure he knew a lot of this stuff.
- But I was telling him that we are servicing people who
- haven't been in the walls of a church in many years, people
- who will weep during the service because they're home.
- And we also, besides introducing ourselves and letting
- him know that we had been around for a while,
- we were saying to him that we wanted
- to be a part, an official part, of the diocese.
- Not only recognized by him in his office,
- but that we wanted to have divisional status, which
- meant that we would be involved in the life--
- at a diocesan level, the life of the church.
- And that we didn't have an agenda per se,
- but we wanted to participate in the life of what
- the rest of the diocese was doing.
- What are you doing missionally?
- What are you doing--
- what's coming out of Rome?
- What are you saying at the cathedral when you speak?
- Instead of just reading it in the Catholic newspaper.
- Things happened at the divisional level.
- And we emphasize the fact that because we knew that divisions
- required outlays of capital and organizations,
- we would take care of all of that.
- That we did not require any funding,
- and we did not require any administration,
- other than please let us participate at this level.
- MARGARET MARY LAU: That's it exactly.
- EVELYN BAILEY: His response?
- CINDY BURCH: It was early in his tenure,
- or he had arrived within that year.
- And it was something that he needed
- to pray about and think about.
- And I'm sure that at that meeting,
- I came away kind of feeling like he was not
- going to grant us that status.
- He was talking to me and saying things that--
- we're talking around the subject.
- It wasn't definite whether he had already decided,
- or it was in truth something he was going to address,
- that he was going to go-- well, he
- didn't tell me he was going to go and work at it.
- He didn't tell me that.
- But the sense I got from him was that he was a deeply
- spiritual and prayerful man.
- And my hope came from the Holy Spirit ,
- that the Holy Spirit would move this man who was open to him
- or her, was open to the Spirit.
- I got the sense of hope, a term I've
- used earlier, that the door was not going to shut behind me.
- And I'd never go through it again.
- That's the feeling.
- I was not happy that--
- and this is in retrospect because I'm
- thinking of a bishop sitting behind his desk looking at me,
- someone he didn't understand or didn't understand
- the community and its needs and the major influence
- he could have in the life, even if it was of one person.
- And that he was doing it from an administrative standpoint.
- And what was going to be good for the entire diocese
- around the issue of gay Catholics.
- I don't know how much--
- I haven't a clue how much he knew
- about the national organization, what
- he had been told by his superiors, what
- was his opinion of a gay person or of homosexuality, which
- was what we were dealing with.
- But I came out of that meeting knowing in my heart
- that he was a spiritual man, and that he
- was going to pray about it.
- And then, for all intents and purposes, that--
- I had so much hope and so much--
- I just had a feeling about this man,
- that I may have been the only person he was praying
- for when he was on his knees before he
- got into bed that night.
- That I may have been just the one person, or the one
- organization.
- Because of all the myriad of things that he had,
- this huge organization, that that's the feeling I got.
- That he was in tune with the Spirit.
- And that gave me boundless hope.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- Wow.
- Well Cindy, thank you.
- CINDY BURCH: You're welcome, Evelyn.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And thank you, Margaret Mary.
- MARGARET MARY LAU: You're welcome.