Audio Interview, Dan Sapper, November 28, 2012

EVELYN BAILEY: I'm sitting here talking to Dan Sapper.

It is Wednesday, November 28.

And Dan has been a member and continues

to be a member of the Lambda Network at Kodak.

And I'm not exactly sure what the actual name is,

whether it's Lambda Kodak, whether it's Kodak Lambda,

what the--

but--

DAN SAPPER: Lambda Network at Kodak.

EVELYN BAILEY: Lambda Network at Kodak.

DAN SAPPER: Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: And so Dan, when did you

get involved with the Network?

DAN SAPPER: I was a charter member of the Network.

And that means I was among the first group of members in--

I think it was 1992.

And we weren't officially recognized by Kodak

at that point, but we had the beginnings of organizations.

And I think the first thing that I

saw was an ad in the Empty Closet that said,

if you work at Kodak and you're interested in getting together

as a group of LGBT--

it was probably just gay and lesbian--

workers, you know, please call this number.

And I think it was David Kosel's phone number,

if I remember correctly.

And I was told that we're having a meeting at his home

to start planning a group, and whoever

would like to be a part should come to this first meeting.

So that's how I got involved.

EVELYN BAILEY: Now I know there were other groups,

diversity groups at Kodak.

The LGBT group was not the first.

DAN SAPPER: No.

I think the first was--

I think it was Network North Star, which was

the African American network.

And then shortly after that was the Women's Forum.

And Lambda was in the second wave of groups,

and I think that included the Asia Pacific Exchange, HOLA,

which--

a Hispanic Organization for Leadership, and Lambda Network

I think were the next three.

EVELYN BAILEY: Mm-hmm.

I don't know if you can answer this question,

but why did those groups come into existence?

DAN SAPPER: You know, I think the--

I can't speak a lot for the earliest groups,

although I do think there was a natural gathering

of African American leaders at Kodak.

And there may actually have been a--

I'm not sure whether it was really formally recognized,

but you know, like there's caucus groups in Congress.

It was a group of African American managers

who felt that they had common experiences,

and were talking amongst each other,

and I think were helping mentor like-minded people.

So the African Americans, I think,

formed around that group.

The Women's Forum may have had also a similar experience.

And you know, I think from the gay perspective,

I think we were looking for some connection to each other.

I don't think at first that we had a huge--

and I have to be careful about this,

but I don't think we had a huge driving force

to try to change something at Kodak.

There was certainly a need.

But I think the need was more human connection

to each other over a driving force that something was wrong,

diversity-wise.

EVELYN BAILEY: So when you got together

at that first meeting with David Kosel,

who-- do you remember who the other people in the group were?

DAN SAPPER: You know, it was a pretty big group.

I think there were probably--

you know, I'm picturing a party years and years ago.

But there probably were a good twenty or twenty-five people

there.

And I think David Kosel, Kathryn I think was there,

Kathryn Rivers.

I'm not-- I think Emily Jones was there,

Chuck Collins, myself.

Oh, I don't know whether-- there were a few other people

from the outset.

Faye Wilbur, perhaps, I think was a charter member.

She's still a current member.

Jim Eamon perhaps was there.

Those are some of the names that I recall right

from the beginning.

EVELYN BAILEY: What was the kind of conversation--

DAN SAPPER: Gary Gray.

And Gary Gray.

EVELYN BAILEY: Gary Gray.

Yes.

DAN SAPPER: There's a name.

EVELYN BAILEY: What was the conversation?

DAN SAPPER: I remember one of the things

that we did at that meeting was come up

with a name for the group.

And we had, as is so popular now, Post-it notes.

It was like one of the first applications of Post-it notes

that I remember.

You know, let's-- everybody put some ideas on a Post-it note

and put them up on the wall, and we were brainstorming names

for the group.

I think we talked about, what are some of the hot topics

that--

you know, why should there be a group?

And I think it's pertinent to say

that some years prior, probably in the mid to late '80s,

Kodak did modify their equal opportunity employment policy

to include sexual orientation.

So that was already a done deal.

Kodak already said, we do not discriminate

on the basis of sexual orientation in the late '80s.

And here we were in the early '90s thinking, OK.

Well, you know, I think--

we were talking-- maybe starting to talk about domestic partner

benefits.

But one of the criteria for the employee networks at Kodak,

which is the generic title for all these employee resource

groups, was that we not be a bargaining group,

and that we not be representing the gays to Kodak,

which would make us more like a union rather than a resource

group.

So the conversation I think at that first meeting

was, these are the rules that Kodak has asked us to abide by.

If we form as a group, here's a set of guidelines

that Kodak has issued for formation

of an employee resource group.

And so I think the conversation was

around those guidelines, which said, you know,

we're not here to represent the gays to Kodak.

We're not here to bargain for benefits.

We're not here to demand things of the company.

We can't represent Kodak as a group, you know?

We are not Kodak.

Employees are not Kodak.

Kodak is Kodak.

Employees are separate.

And these guidelines were a clear delineation.

So I think some of the conversation

was just getting everybody in the room square with the idea

that if we were to form an employee resource group that it

would be on Kodak's terms.

And I think we generally agreed that they were good terms.

And among the very earliest things that had to be done,

and probably was discussed at this first meeting,

was what would be the mission of the group?

And how would the mission of the group support Kodak's business?

Because that is the main criteria for the employee

resource group, is it's a group of employees who supports

Kodak's business success.

EVELYN BAILEY: Within the group, were there particular needs

expressed?

I mean, you said network.

You know, create connections.

Maybe in a one-minute description,

when you work at Kodak, are you pretty isolated?

I mean, I don't--

DAN SAPPER: So you can't see the big smile

on my face on the tape.

But you, know back then in the early '90s,

I mean, Kodak was probably nearly as big as it ever was.

So I don't think we were isolated, but you know,

because there were so many people working at Kodak.

You might know one or two gay people in your work area,

but there were so many buildings at Kodak

and so many different shifts of workers, you know--

A shift, B shift, night shift, day shift, weekends.

And so there's no way that of the maybe 60,000 Kodak

workers at the time in Rochester that you would know,

where are the other gay people?

They're in other buildings, they're at other plants.

There's Kodak Park.

There's Kodak Office.

There was Elmgrove, there was Hawkeye Plant,

there was C Building, there was the Carlson Road Plant,

there was the West Avenue, the Lincoln Plant,

I think they called it.

So isolated in that we were in different sites

even in Rochester.

Riverwood was the marketing center down in Henrietta.

So isolated in the sense that, you know,

pretty much you would maybe know a little bit of the gay network

within your building if you were lucky, or if you were out.

Or even if you weren't out, you might figure it out,

who was who.

So isolated in some senses, yes.

In other senses, I think the network was an opportunity

to learn who's who, and what could we

be if we were better connected socially?

And we did have--

I think our earliest events were mainly social events.

EVELYN BAILEY: What was your mission?

What eventually developed as your mission, if you recall?

DAN SAPPER: And I think our mission really

hasn't changed much.

And let me think about whether I can recite it.

Probably not.

But Lambda Network-- and this is rough--

but Lambda Network is a group of Kodak employees and retirees

who contribute to Kodak's business success by--

from-- I don't know whether promoting is in there,

but promoting inclusion regardless or indifferent

to sexual orientation.

That was one of our key things, was we didn't want to call

attention to sexual orientation.

So our vision was, hey.

If we could be successful as gay employees,

regardless of our sexual orientation,

then we would be successful.

EVELYN BAILEY: And Kodak would be successful.

DAN SAPPER: And Kodak would be more successful.

So I think that's the gist.

And I'm probably leaving something out,

and I probably have the whole mission down in my briefcase

in the trunk of my car.

But it's pretty much that same mission and vision today

is that we enable Kodak's business success

and drive towards full inclusion,

regardless of sexual orientation.

And we thought it was important to say regardless,

because you know, when you say sexual orientation,

people automatically think gay and lesbian,

and they don't think straight, heterosexual

as a sexual orientation.

So you know, we did have a lot of conversations

early on about that.

EVELYN BAILEY: When did you decide,

or how did it come about that you

began to engage management in your desire to be inclusive,

but also your educational endeavors?

Was education a part of your mission?

DAN SAPPER: Yeah.

I think it was.

I think that was probably in our mission's--

well, I don't know.

Somewhere in the mission or vision,

I think we may have the word education,

through education and--

through education that we accomplish

that goal of having sexual orientation be

a little more transparent, and enabling people to be

themselves in the workplace.

You know, it was all focused around the workplace.

EVELYN BAILEY: Uh-huh.

And your engagement of--

DAN SAPPER: Management.

EVELYN BAILEY: --management was because--

DAN SAPPER: Well, I think there were probably

several different prompts in that regard.

The biggest engagement driver that I recall

came several years after our formation.

So somewhere around-- I think it was

1996 where we had our first educational event,

and we called it The Lambda Educational

Event with Management.

And it was specifically an event where we wanted managers

to attend, not--

I mean, we certainly welcomed the general employees,

but that was not the way we built the event.

The event was an educational event with management.

And it was a sit-down dinner with a program,

and it was held at the Burgundy Basin Inn.

And one of the key things that we

did to prepare for that event was we

had to build support with management

to even show their faces at the door.

And we had to build support within the gay population

of Kodak to even show their faces at the door,

because this was basically a coming out

party for Kodak workers.

I mean, it really was.

It's like, you know, you'd see the managers in the room

and you'd see the gays in the room.

And it was the first time that that was happening at Kodak.

So it was a really big deal.

So what we did to prepare for that

was we paired up in teams of two and we

made a list of the forty--

I think was forty top managers at Kodak.

And we went out in teams of male and female gay people,

and we met with each of those top forty managers

in the company and asked, would they support--

would they support our group?

Would they attend our event?

That was the goal of going to their office.

And it was always on their turf, from what I remember.

And we were nervous as all get out

to go knock on a manager's door and say, we're here.

We're gay.

We have this event coming up.

We're the Lambda Network at Kodak, and are you supportive?

You know, I mean, it really put people on the spot,

putting the top managers of the company.

And you know, we got a lot of hems and haws,

but we also got several or more managers who

were really willing to engage.

Said, "Sure.

And I'll bring my people with me."

You know?

"I'll bring my leadership team with me."

So we would get small groups of leaders

scattered around the company.

People who wanted to be at this event, hear what we had to say.

And that's how we initially got traction,

was by knocking on people's doors

and pounding the pavement.

EVELYN BAILEY: Who was your partner?

DAN SAPPER: I think it was Kathryn Rivers,

if I remember correctly.

We may have switched off a bit depending

on who we were going to see and you know, who--

you know, sometimes one person would

have an in with a certain manager in a business unit

or in the research labs.

But I remember going to do that with Kathryn.

And I think we did that practice for the first several years.

We had this educational event with management once yearly.

And I think we did that practice of knocking on managers' doors,

or at least calling them in the successive years.

You know, will you support us?

Will you buy a table for your group?

Will you invite others from your group

and try to exponentially grow?

EVELYN BAILEY: Were there any managers

who refused to your face?

DAN SAPPER: I don't--

you know, possibly, but I don't recall for sure.

You know, I think most of the top managers

were a little more suave than that, you know?

So somebody could conveniently have a conflict.

You never know.

With that kind of discrimination,

you never know what the motivation is,

and you never know if it's real or not.

So you know, conflicts.

Oh, my group's not quite ready for that.

I think I might get a lot of pushback, you know?

So there were excuses.

There were definitely excuses.

Refusals, I don't think there were any outright refusals,

but there were a lot of excuses.

EVELYN BAILEY: And what about management beyond the forty?

The levels of, you know, CEO, VP?

DAN SAPPER: We had--

you know, we only had so many people in Lambda,

so there were only so many doors that we could knock on.

So this first event, if I remember correctly,

this first event, we had ninety-something people.

We may have had over 100 signed up,

but only ninety-something showed up,

which is typical for an event like that.

And I think our goal was to have somewhere

on the order of a fifty-fifty mix of gay people

and straight people in the room.

And I don't think that happened.

I think it was more like maybe thirty gay people

and sixty management.

And probably unbeknownst to us, some of the management was gay.

So there were a few winks and nods, I think.

There were a few people there that

came as managers who were not out of the closet.

And so-- I lost track of the question.

EVELYN BAILEY: Above the forty managers.

DAN SAPPER: Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: VP, CEO.

DAN SAPPER: Not a lot, but I think

there was starting to get some traction among either

the workgroups that some of the gay people in Lambda

were part of and could convince their managers to attend.

There were a few people who I didn't really recognize

as top leaders of the company.

Again, you know, Kodak was so huge at the time

that you wouldn't necessarily know who was who.

But I remember doing table charts and trying to decide,

do we have enough gay people at this table?

And who would be best to talk to that manager?

And how are we going to-- you know, it's like a wedding.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

DAN SAPPER: Who's going to sit with who?

And it was.

You know, it was at the Burgundy Basin Inn.

So there was a little bit of spread beyond the top forty,

but I don't think it was--

I don't think we drilled too deep.

I think it was very spotty if there

was a lower level of management from other parts

of the company.

It was spotty.

EVELYN BAILEY: When did that begin to change?

Because I think, if I'm not mistaken,

at some of your educational events,

you had the director of diversity, you had VPs,

you had I think George Fisher.

DAN SAPPER: Oh, yeah.

George-- you know, George Fisher was probably

one of the main driving forces of the strength

that the employee networks took off

with right at the beginning.

So George Fisher was at that first event,

and he was a speaker at our first event.

We had a guest speaker who was Elizabeth Birch.

Before she was in charge of the Human Rights Campaign,

she was a legal counsel at Apple Computer.

So picture, you know, 1996, Apple Computer when, you know,

Macs were still a rage back then.

But Apple was not what they are today.

So Elizabeth Birch from Apple Computer.

And we had--

I think we had one other manager at Kodak, which

I think was right around that time who

had just come from Apple or had been a consultant with Apple.

But there was some other connection

between Kodak and Apple in the management ranks.

So Elizabeth Birch made sense.

And I want to say-- and don't quote me on this--

but I want to say Andrew Scully maybe

was the name, the other person from Apple that was somehow

tied in with Kodak.

And I don't remember what-- maybe it was a marketing--

I think he may have been in consumer marketing.

So George Fisher was really--

George Fisher had come to Kodak in 1994

as CEO, directly hired as CEO.

And he came from Motorola.

And one of the first things that he did--

that I remember he did as CEO was created something

called the Kodak values.

And it was, here are five behaviors that we expect out

of all employees, and one of those behaviors

was respect for the dignity of the individual, which gets

at all this diversity stuff.

And you know, that's I think-- that was really

empowering to Lambda Network.

It was really empowering to gay people at the company,

was you've got to respect me despite any differences

that we may have.

And it was fundamental.

George Fisher, you know, really rolled out

this whole concept of a company has

to have a core set of values.

And before that, you know, I don't

think Kodak was bad at that kind of thing.

But at the same time, we didn't stress it.

EVELYN BAILEY: It wasn't articulated.

DAN SAPPER: Yeah.

It wasn't articulated.

That's a very good way to put it.

And so George Fisher came in and said,

here's five fundamental values.

And trust and respect for the dignity of the individual

were right at the top.

And we really, as Lambda, leaned on those values.

And I think all the diversity networks, the employee response

groups relied on those values to give us

the intestinal fortitude to be ourselves in the workplace.

EVELYN BAILEY: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

How-- you were out when you came to Kodak.

DAN SAPPER: Well, so that's interesting.

I was out in Rochester, but I was not out at work.

EVELYN BAILEY: What kind of--

why?

DAN SAPPER: Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: Why the disconnect?

DAN SAPPER: So you know, why the disconnect?

So you know, I came to Rochester first in 1982

as a college co-op working for Kodak.

Nineteen years old, I started working at Kodak.

I wanted a career at Kodak.

I was out on campus.

You know, nineteen years old.

I was a sophomore.

I was just finding my legs at being gay, you know?

I mean, you know, what do you know as an eighteen-year-old?

I mean, and now, you know, kids are coming out earlier.

But you know, I didn't know what kind of discrimination

I would face at work, whether I would get a full-time job

if somebody knew I was gay or not, especially as an engineer,

you know?

Maybe it would be different if I was in marketing

or human resources.

But you know, here I am, a guy working in the paper

mill of all places.

And you know, a sophomore.

So I wasn't out.

I was out on campus.

And I would come for a work block, three or four-month work

block at Kodak.

You know, full time.

And so it was a real disconnect between four months on campus

being gay, four months at Kodak not being gay, you know?

Four months back at campus, I can

be gay again, because I was part of the gay group on campus.

So you know, it didn't really make sense to me

at the time of what being gay at work would look like.

I was young.

I didn't know what work looked like, let alone

being gay at work.

So that's where I started.

I did meet on my co-op work blocks

some full-time employees who were gay.

I mean, we found each other in our building.

You know, maybe I recognized somebody at Friar's, the bar

on Monroe Avenue and said, "Hey.

You work in my building at Kodak, don't you, you know?"

And we struck up a friendship.

So there were a couple people I think

that I knew back then in the early '80s that

were gay at work.

And then I did get hired full time,

and I was hired into a different area

than I had been a co-op in.

So again, you start all over again with a new set of people.

You don't know who you can trust.

So you know-- and I think it's like this probably

in every workplace.

You're cautious at first.

Who can you trust?

Who do you come out to first?

It's always a process.

You come out over and over again.

And unless you come in with a rainbow flag

or a picture of your husband--

which, now we say husband--

but picture of your partner and put him on your desk--

I didn't have any of that when I was young, so I wasn't out.

So you know, a few people knew, you know?

I think a few gay people that I associated with.

But I would say by the late '80s,

I started to come out to some of my coworkers,

to one of my bosses.

And you know, I started feeling more comfortable.

So that by the time Lambda Network came around,

I was a little more secure.

And then just the power of numbers

and being in the network and seeing a few role models who

were farther advanced in their career than I was

and how they handled themselves.

And you know, I think that was a good basis for the Lambda

Network.

You saw other role models who were out at work, how they were

successful in their careers.

I don't think I recognized it at the time as mentoring,

but it was-- informal mentoring was happening just

by being associated with Emily Jones, Kathryn Rivers, Chuck

Collins, eventually Cindy Martin.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

So the Lambda Network at Kodak was really

to support the business end.

But I mean, to support each other in the workplace,

to be more comfortable, to be more productive,

to work with the corporation in order to be more contributing.

DAN SAPPER: Yeah.

And that's the thing that I think we--

over and over again, we remind ourselves

and at various educational events,

we find that there are still places where people

are afraid to be themselves at work,

and it ruins trust with your coworkers.

They don't know who you are.

They don't know if they can trust you as a gay person.

I shouldn't say it that way.

They don't know if they can trust you

because you're not presenting yourself authentically.

So that is key in banding together as a group,

that we learn from each other how to be authentic.

EVELYN BAILEY: And you were in--

you were in a professional environment.

DAN SAPPER: Yeah, as an engineer.

Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: Was there a difference

between your environment and the manufacturing--

DAN SAPPER: Absolutely.

EVELYN BAILEY: --environment?

DAN SAPPER: Absolutely.

And I can recall--

now one of my career moves--

and it was because I was so involved with Lambda Network

that I was comfortable with the idea of diversity

and workplace.

You know, growing diversity in the workplace.

So one of my assignments was to be a diversity

leader in my workplace.

And that lasted a couple years.

And there was a distinct need for it by that point,

that Kodak was realizing that there were some inequities.

So I do remember in my role as a cultural leader

that there were gay employees coming to me in my building,

saying, "You know, so and so called

me a faggot over the phone when I was trying to do my job."

"You know, I was asking somebody for some supplies,"

and they basically said, "I'm not

going to do anything for you, faggot."

You know?

So you know, clearly, you know, clear discrimination.

You know, earlier in the conversation I said, "You know,

you don't often know when you're being discriminated against."

Well, you know, it was clear to me.

It was clear to the guy that was called a faggot who

was part of Lambda Network.

I'm sorry for the strong language, but it happened.

And so you know, I remember--

you know, the guy was brave enough to come to me

and say, "Hey, this happened to me.

What do I do?"

I said, "You know, now that you've told me,

you know, we need to report it, you know?"

You know, I think the rules at Kodak are--

and I think the rules probably at any company--

well, I shouldn't say that.

The rules at Kodak are--

(Laugh)

--that if somebody tells you that they're

having a problem in the workplace, especially

harassment, that you should be obligated--

you are obligated to bring it to a manager's or an HR person's

attention.

So I was sort of in a bridge role.

My professional role was a bridge between employees

and human resources.

And so you know, now that you've told me,

I feel obligated to bring this to somebody's attention.

Are you comfortable with that?

And I did.

So there were many reports of--

and I don't know how substantiated they are.

But there were many reports of, you know,

things that happened in manufacturing darkrooms.

You know, Kodak photography.

We make film in the darkrooms.

We finish, slit, and spool film in darkrooms.

You expose and process your pictures in darkrooms.

So there were a lot of employees who worked in darkrooms,

and it's an untrustworthy environment

just because it's dark.

You know?

I mean, the darkness of night, you know?

When you are walking the streets of any place at night,

you're a little more uncomfortable

because you can't see what's going on around you.

And so the whole environment of the production shop floor

and especially the darkrooms had a reputation

for being a tough place.

Whether it was or not, I think, you know, is debatable,

whether it was really any rougher

for gay people in the darkrooms versus in the white light.

I can't say for certain.

EVELYN BAILEY: But there does seem

to be certainly a difference between professional office

and manufacturing in terms of the overtness

of the possible discrimination or harassment.

DAN SAPPER: Yeah.

And without stereotyping, you know,

the education level's different.

The street smarts are different.

And I have to say, I think the street smarts are probably

smarter on the shop floor than there

are at the professional level, you know?

I mean, you know, college smarts are

different than street smarts.

So you know, there's definitely a different dynamic

between professional and manufacturing.

EVELYN BAILEY: Did the culture--

well, let me ask you this.

How did the presence of the Lambda Network at Kodak

change the culture at Kodak?

Or did it?

DAN SAPPER: Well, I think it certainly did.

It allowed people to figure out how

to be a little more out at work in a safe environment.

So you know, things like the safe place, safe space

magnet where you have a symbol that says,

this space is safe to discuss LGBT issues.

That was a result of the training sessions

that Lambda did.

Not just the yearly educational events, but lunchtime sessions

that we would do when local--

you know, any local area that called us or that we were told

might need our help.

You know, we tried to make the inroads.

And when we went through one of our training sessions,

we offered people, hey.

If you can commit to providing a safe place for LGBT people

to have these conversations with them, whether you're straight

or gay or an ally, you know, please

feel free to post this magnet.

So you know, you started seeing these things posted around,

and you got a sense for who was an ally

And you didn't necessarily know whether they

were straight or gay.

But so we built that little bit of a network.

We had these educational events that

would allow people to express.

Hey, you know, if we're doing a training somewhere, you know,

there might be somebody in the group receiving

the training who would come out of the closet

to their workgroup.

It's like, oh.

That was unexpected, you know?

Sometimes it was very joyous, and sometimes it

was tearful when that happened.

But sometimes people felt they had

to speak up, because people were starting to--

in a conference room environment,

you know, say what they really felt, which we encourage.

You know, we say, hey, you know, what's behind these closed

doors, you know, let's talk.

Let's have a conversation.

And sometimes they could get ugly, and people in the room

didn't realize they were talking about their coworker who

was sitting right next to them in an ugly fashion.

That's one of the things about being

gay is it doesn't always show.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

DAN SAPPER: So you know, trust can get destroyed.

It's a two-way street, you know?

If the gay person doesn't share of themselves,

that doesn't promote trust.

But if a coworker spouts homophobia or anti-gay jokes

or anything like that, or just bad words, you know,

that destroys trust too.

You know, it builds barriers.

So I think Lambda really, just by being

out there, by showing our faces more,

gave people courage, strength to speak up.

And it built in the management, in the leadership

ranks the qualities to speak up as allies on behalf.

If they heard those kind of bad jokes,

whether they were just in bad taste

or whether they were really singling somebody out,

you know, it gave people the courage to say, hey.

That isn't right.

That isn't respectful, which was one of the Kodak values.

You're being disrespectful.

And there were people that we heard

of getting fired for that kind of behavior.

And I hate to say it, but I'm going to say it on the record.

There were some joyous moments in the Lambda Network

at Kodak when we found out that people

were fired for using bad language

or for promoting homophobic jokes,

posting homophobic jokes in the workplace,

and doing so publicly.

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

So in the process, management became a strong ally.

DAN SAPPER: They became empowered, yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: And do you recall when Kodak began publicly

to be supportive of LGBT rights or diversity rights?

DAN SAPPER: You know, there were things that happened early

before Lambda Network.

Like I said, sexual orientation was

added to our nondiscrimination clause.

I think it was '86, but it may have been '88.

So you know, we knew that somewhere somebody got it,

because that was early for most companies, you know,

for almost any Fortune 500 company

to include sexual orientation in their nondiscrimination

statement.

Kodak was early, early, early.

Very early.

I think Xerox and Kodak were neck and neck in that regard.

And I think Kodak may have been first,

but I'm not certain about that.

So there was something going on in the late '80s.

But as Lambda began to do these educational events

and various managers, we started giving award--

Lambda started giving an award called the OUTSpoken

and Visible Award.

And Visible.

Not Invisible.

And the out being, you're putting yourself out there

by speaking up on behalf of gays.

We found, who are the top leaders in the Lambda Network's

eyes who are doing the most to support a more open culture?

And the first several years that we offered that award,

we had multiple candidates and good candidates.

So I think that, it helped spread the strength by saying,

here's the role models.

We want to point them out.

And we allowed those people at our annual event,

we gave the award publicly at our annual educational event

with management and allowed the recipient

to tell their story of how they came

to be such a strong supporter.

And that also helped mentor others.

And you know, this is how I did it.

This is how you can do it.

Be a strong supporter for LGBT diversity.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah, when I said publicly,

I was thinking more along the lines of legislation,

whether it be at the federal level or the state level.

DAN SAPPER: Yeah.

I'm trying to remember when ENDA first came before Congress.

I don't know if you recall, but it had to be in the mid

to late '90s.

So right around this time that Lambda was,

you know, getting our annual educational event

with management going, and we were growing that event.

You know, the first year was 100.

The next year was 150.

The third year was 200 people attending.

I think it probably had to be around--

I'm guessing '97 or '98.

And it was Mike Morley was our--

he was President of Kodak, and he was the Vice President

for Human Resources.

But he was a president of the company,

and he testified before--

I think it was a Senate subcommittee.

I'm not sure that it was a full Senate.

But it was a subcommittee that was considering ENDA.

You know, to put ENDA up for a vote,

and whether it was going to get out of committee.

And Mike Morley went and testified before Congress

in support of ENDA.

And it didn't pass.

ENDA didn't pass when it came before Congress,

and it still hasn't passed, right?

No.

Employment nondiscrimination at the federal level.

No, I don't--

EVELYN BAILEY: Not at the federal level.

That's at the state level.

DAN SAPPER: So it came up again, I think, around 2004, 2005.

And I think Mike Morley was just retiring right around then,

and Bob Berman was becoming the leader in human resources.

And Bob Berman went a second time for the same purpose

to testify before a congressional subcommittee

in support of ENDA.

EVELYN BAILEY: OK.

DAN SAPPER: So you know, those were some of the early things.

But there was starting to be pockets of support.

Like, you know, the gay and lesbian film festivals

were starting to become popular in various cities.

And unbeknownst to Lambda--

I don't remember whether it was our New York office

or our Hollywood office--

was sponsoring the gay and lesbian film festivals

in Los Angeles and New York City.

And we said, hey, wait a second.

If they're doing it in New York City,

they should be doing it for our local film festival.

And so you know, it was an opportunity for Lambda to try

to corral Kodak and say, hey.

You know, maybe there's an opportunity here

that we're missing because we're too scattered in these events.

But you know, could we--

maybe the entertainment imaging, the motion picture group

could do some sort of sponsorship

at some of the biggest festivals.

And I think it became a little clearer that, yeah, they

would do that, and they would do it consistently.

So those kinds of things started to become more visible.

The Out & Equal Workplace Summit started to happen,

and they were looking for sponsorships.

And so again, Lambda I think started

leaning on our Global Diversity group and our Community Affairs

group and said, hey.

Is this something that you would consider sponsoring?

Because we think it's a direct tie-in with the work

that Lambda Network's trying to do.

And you know, the answer was yes.

So there were a few key initiatives

that Lambda was able to tell management about that, hey.

These would be good things for the company to do.

It would be good to sponsor Out & Equal.

It would be good to sponsor GLSEN.

It would be good to sponsor GLAAD.

It would be good to sponsor the GAGB locally.

GrantMaker, the film festival.

And these are some of the things that now that Kodak