Audio Interview, Dean Hannotte, undated

  • BRUCE JEWELL: Literally speaking,
  • if a group of people--
  • and I have no idea how large this group is,
  • actually-- but if a group of people such as this
  • are to succeed, there's a need for community.
  • There is the practice that you might
  • call your group therapy or your meetings here, and so on.
  • But there's also a need for community,
  • a need for interaction on a wider level.
  • Are you doing anything about that, or what's happening?
  • DEAN HANNOTTE: Yes.
  • I'm glad you brought up that word because we
  • are nothing if not community.
  • As a matter of fact, our groups, and even our counseling
  • tends to be often just simply the structure
  • that that community uses to happen or to come alive.
  • The real events in our world happen in an unstructured way.
  • They happen when, for instance, people fall in love.
  • That's very much a part of the Ninth Street Center.
  • As a matter of fact, shortly after we opened the center,
  • we noticed that people from all over the city--
  • young, idealistic people, largely--
  • were moving down to the East Village
  • to be closer to the center.
  • Paul says that the bump rate is large in a community like this
  • when people are living close together
  • and run into each other all the time on the way to work.
  • Even at work.
  • I mean, there are people who just happen
  • to work in the same building.
  • So that-- yes.
  • The thing that keeps the Ninth Street Center alive
  • is the sense of community, is the rich sense
  • of the variety of ways in which people interact.
  • As far as groups go, we have open discussion groups
  • every night of the week at eight o'clock.
  • And people come to those when they will.
  • But the thing that keeps most people interested in the center
  • is the sense that it is a community
  • that people are helping one another in a number of ways,
  • that what you would call therapy does not only
  • go on in the counseling sessions or in the group sessions.
  • But they really go on to some degree
  • when every one person is reaching out to another person
  • to try to express something in themselves that they've never
  • expressed that well before.
  • So it is a therapeutic community.
  • And every aspect of it enhances every other aspect.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Do you have any plans
  • for expanding your activities to other cities?
  • DEAN HANNOTTE: Well, not at the moment.
  • If there are some people at the center who
  • feel that they'd like to do that,
  • we would, of course, give them our blessing.
  • But we feel that it really doesn't
  • matter what city you're working in,
  • as long as it's a large city.
  • I think a large metropolis offers many advantages in terms
  • of the numbers of people, the varieties
  • of people, the varieties of cultures represented.
  • So, we're happy here in New York.
  • But we have no objections to anybody starting another center
  • somewhere that would advocate or express or take
  • advantage of any of the viewpoints
  • that Paul has been teaching us.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Dean, it seems to me
  • that the gay movement so far has been
  • very concerned with political change, which I favor.
  • That is, the change of laws and so on.
  • I think changing the laws will provide an impetus
  • for the development of a new type of gay community, one that
  • isn't constantly threatened by various institutions,
  • and particularly, the police and the church, perhaps.
  • However, I'm struck that the gay movement has also worked itself
  • into a corner of defending institutions as they currently
  • exist, institutions that bar the bads, whatever,
  • that are, in fact, the products of oppression.
  • And thus far, there's been very little movement
  • towards alternative modes of life
  • to present people with models of a gay life which
  • is attractive and more fulfilling than what
  • is currently the norm.
  • It seems to me that this center, in your thought,
  • offers some kind of alternative of this nature.
  • DEAN HANNOTTE: Exactly.
  • We founded the center because we felt
  • that other gay organizations in New York
  • were doing very valuable work, but not
  • in terms of offering people a lifestyle
  • that they could elect to pursue on the basis of having
  • fulfilling human relationships.
  • In other words, this center is psychological.
  • And that in itself is a dimension
  • which the political groups, or the social groups,
  • say, leave out.
  • We try to address the psychological problems
  • of gay people in terms of the psychological problems of man
  • in general, and on that basis, offer people ways
  • to get into life more, to find out
  • what their human capacities are, to explore
  • the kinds of enriching relationships that
  • are available to anybody who is willing to roll up his sleeves
  • and get his hands dirty in this world.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: I know that movement people are not
  • terribly fond of the Ninth Street Center.
  • DEAN HANNOTTE: They tend to--
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Sometimes, at least--
  • DEAN HANNOTTE: Yeah.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: That's a mild statement.
  • (laughter)
  • Do you have any idea why that would be?
  • DEAN HANNOTTE: Well, sure.
  • Because they don't understand us.
  • It's not a newer phenomenon in history.
  • People boo what they don't understand quite often.
  • You know, we're just trying to establish
  • the fact that gay people don't understand themselves
  • as much as they would like, and that this is,
  • while an embarrassing statement, is nevertheless true.
  • And we'd better face it if we want to grow,
  • and if we want to find the kind of life
  • that we really deserve to live.
  • Because if we keep on defending, as you
  • say, the status quo of gay life, we'll
  • end up being stuck with it.
  • And I don't think that that is a destiny worthy of people
  • who I have as much feeling for as the people who
  • come to the Ninth Street Center, as yourself.
  • As people who are exploring life in an open-ended way,
  • we want more life.
  • We want to see the beauty in other people
  • who want to explore the goodness in human nature.
  • And these are things that people who become overly committed
  • to the gay political cause cannot appreciate fully
  • because they've blinded themselves to it.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: On the other hand, to take the other position,
  • I can see where being apolitical at this point
  • would bring up resentment.
  • Because it's, in essence, through the political schema,
  • through removal of laws, essentially, rather
  • than the creation of new ones, that we
  • can create an atmosphere.
  • Or if you want to put it simply, the turf,
  • the psychic and physical freedom which
  • would allow the development of a center such as this.
  • I mean, there are countries in which this
  • would be an impossible place.
  • DEAN HANNOTTE: Sure.
  • Sure.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: It simply couldn't exist
  • because of the political climate in those countries.
  • So there isn't exactly a contest here.
  • The two, it seems to me, are complementary.
  • DEAN HANNOTTE: Oh, of course.
  • We have a number of people here who
  • are active in the gay movement and who
  • find that their work at the Ninth Street Center
  • enhances and complements it, as you say.
  • You know, we're not opposed or alienated
  • from the political side of the movement.
  • On the contrary.
  • I, myself, have worked in the political arm of this movement
  • before we started the Ninth Street Center.
  • And I find no inner-alienation about it at all.
  • I just simply think that it is important,
  • but that it simply cannot address the psychological
  • issues involved in discussing and learning about the meaning
  • of gay existence.
  • Gay people did not become gay on political grounds.
  • They became gay because of basic human tendencies and desires
  • and needs.
  • And if you want to understand what these are,
  • we really can't spend too much time
  • learning about our legal system.
  • You can do some good work, some good, egalitarian work
  • to change the laws, to expand the democratic principles
  • of good government.
  • But you can't really understand yourself
  • better or what is blocking your own development.
  • In order to do that, you have to look
  • at the basic issues of human nature, such things
  • as inner masculinity or inner feminity,
  • to find out what these resources can mean for you,
  • how you can use them, how you can open up your relationships
  • with other people.
  • People in the gay movement who become totally committed
  • to the political arm find that they become rather
  • ignorant of the variety of human relationships that exist.
  • In other words, human nature is the most broad subject matter
  • that I think can exist because it's constantly
  • in a state of change and development and evolution,
  • and because there are so many little areas that it gets off
  • into and can develop.
  • Homosexuality itself has, throughout history,
  • been one of these little areas of deviancy.
  • So what we're advocating is that to understand homosexuality
  • or any other deviant pattern, you
  • have to understand human nature itself.
  • And this is a lifetime study.
  • This is not something that can be simply explained
  • by making a few radical assumptions
  • about political institutions.
  • That doesn't do it.
  • What you have to do is you have to look at people's lives.
  • You have to examine how their development progresses.
  • What are the blocks in human development?
  • Always society's fault, or is there sometimes
  • inadequacies in themselves?
  • So these are the kinds of issues that we at the Ninth Street
  • Center are devoting ourselves to stu--
  • (pause in recording)
  • Our approach to counseling is quite different, I think,
  • from most organizations in the city, certainly
  • most professional organizations, and probably many
  • of the gay counseling organizations.
  • We feel that unless there is some real human interest
  • in the other person, that there is no conceivable way of really
  • helping them at the psychological level
  • that we address.
  • Sure, you can offer advice, perhaps,
  • on when to move away from your parents.
  • Or you know, there are all kinds of practical matters
  • that advice can be given on.
  • But to really examine the person's development,
  • to begin to see the potential in the person, where
  • the person can grow, where he can expand,
  • where he can reach out, this requires, by definition,
  • a real love for the other person of some sort--
  • a real interest, a real sense that they are alive.
  • Because how can you address that sense of (unintelligible)
  • unless you see it?
  • BRUCE JEWELL: But you use love as a vehicle, let's say,
  • to get to the other person.
  • DEAN HANNOTTE: That's right.
  • That's right.
  • It's something that we believe in very, very strongly.
  • So, the people I counsel, I would never accept somebody
  • for counseling unless I really believed in them in some way,
  • unless I really felt that this person was
  • a beautiful person who could really go somewhere, who could
  • really open up, who could really start relating more
  • in more high-quality kinds of ways, in bigger ways.
  • And unless I feel that I can help him go towards that,
  • then I wouldn't dream of counseling somebody
  • because it would be on a false basis.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Well, it's generally
  • thought that everybody has this capacity to expand.
  • And I wouldn't doubt that it's there.
  • But some people, it seems pretty well driven underground,
  • let's say.
  • DEAN HANNOTTE: Yeah.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: What type of person would you refuse?
  • What--
  • DEAN HANNOTTE: Well, we would--
  • BRUCE JEWELL: When you have refused,
  • as I gather you have refused to counsel people,
  • what were your criteria?
  • DEAN HANNOTTE: Well, the basic issue is whether or not
  • they can grow.
  • And there are many people in this world who
  • have had their inner resources and potential beaten out
  • of them by a hostile society.
  • And this is not only true of homosexuals.
  • It's true of all children who have to undergo
  • the brutality of this world.
  • It's a really grim world.
  • And so I think it's tragically naive to assume
  • that everyone that we would like to be able to help
  • can, in fact, be helped in the terms that we're discussing.
  • Yes, they can often be helped to adjust to society
  • or to accept social roles more meekly.
  • In fact, this is what most psychoanalysts do,
  • most psychiatrists.
  • They teach a person to adjust, to give up, really.
  • To stop trying to find that sense of aliveness,
  • that sense of excitement about living
  • that all children know from the day
  • they're born that they want.
  • So conventional therapy really is designed, in a sense,
  • to kill the patient.
  • This is its goal.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Let me ask you again.
  • Suppose a patient, a typical patient, comes to you.
  • What kind of problem is he going to-- usually,
  • a person coming someplace has a problem.
  • He's lonely, he's depressed, he's hyper all the time,
  • he can't find a lover or a partner.
  • I don't know.
  • There must be many, many different types of problems.
  • DEAN HANNOTTE: Well, there's an old song Medicine that says,
  • you don't treat the symptom, you treat the disease.
  • And that's what we do.
  • We don't look at the immediate-- well, we look at it.
  • We look at the immediate cause of his distress.
  • But then we say that, basically, all these different varieties
  • of psychic distress have a single cause.
  • And that is human dissatisfaction
  • with the quality of life.
  • And if you can help a person get on a growth--
  • get into a growth phase where he can really
  • start relating more to people and relating from the best in--
  • out of the best in himself.
  • And really, you know, with a sense of hope for the future.
  • These are the basic ingredients of helping another person.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Well, let me--
  • (pause in recording)
  • DEAN HANNOTTE: --is that you get a people who
  • have tremendous potentials and tremendous creative drives
  • and needs.
  • And you find that they've spent most of their life
  • defending themselves against the encroachments
  • of a hostile, conformist society,
  • and that therefore, their defenses
  • have tended to become rather hard, rather severe, and rather
  • difficult.
  • And in a world such as ours, when,
  • naturally, people who have creative tendencies
  • can go off in many different directions,
  • their defenses are very different and very in conflict.
  • And so the defenses that we deal with here
  • tend to often be in conflict with one another.
  • Now the thing that makes it work is the fact
  • that we help one another to love and to take
  • constructive, moral responsibility for each other.
  • And with that kind of emphasis, you
  • can overcome and get around all of these,
  • let's say, petty problems.
  • Problems where you don't like the way a person cuts his hair,
  • you don't like the style of shoes he has,
  • or you don't like his tic.
  • Maybe he shakes his shoulder every two minutes.
  • Maybe he coughs a lot.
  • On the basis of the kind of love that, say, Jesus of Nazareth
  • was talking about, those kinds of annoyances
  • really do recede into the background
  • if you can look at a person as a human being
  • and relate to him as such.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Now you've talked a good deal about creativity.
  • If somebody that you were to say had benefited
  • from his experience here at the center,
  • if you were to describe that person,
  • how would you say he had become more creative?
  • DEAN HANNOTTE: Well, I'd say that he had become more alive,
  • in that any specific evidence of creativity
  • would be for life to show at some later point.
  • But that the basic thing that we do for people
  • is to help them see what's best in themselves,
  • and to come alive, and to get more interested
  • in living and in other people.
  • And with that as your starting point, you can go anywhere.
  • You could write books.
  • You can paint.
  • You can just do anything you want with it.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Can you go to the office every day?
  • Would that work?
  • (Hannotte laughs)
  • DEAN HANNOTTE: Well, I think you can go to the office every day
  • and realize that you don't have to expect so much
  • out of office life.
  • That is to say, if you have a real creative avenue opening up
  • for you, if you see that you can really mean something
  • to other people, and that you can love other people,
  • and that you can take responsibility
  • in the world in some big, human way,
  • then what you do for a living doesn't have to mean that much.
  • I, myself, am a computer programmer.
  • I'm a computer programmer because I think it's fun
  • to work with machines.
  • But it has absolutely, obviously, no human residue.
  • (pause in recording)
  • Well, we teach people that when they
  • want to find a world in which its healthy for them
  • to express themselves and to explore
  • their inner capacities, then it has
  • to be a carefully chosen world.
  • It has to be a world of friends, of people who care about you.
  • And so we do not advocate in any general manner that people
  • feel impelled to come out on the job, on the subway, in a bus,
  • or just in any situation that there just happen to be
  • other human beings around.
  • So I, for instance, in my own case,
  • I didn't find it necessary at all
  • to hide the fact that I was gay.
  • So that was an easy situation.
  • If I were working in a field where people were obviously
  • very threatened by homosexual feelings
  • and could not face it in themselves,
  • then I would not expose myself to that kind of conflict.
  • Or, to put it another way, I wouldn't expose them
  • to the inner conflict that they would face having
  • to work with a homosexual.
  • I would spare them that kind of battle in themselves
  • by not telling them about myself.
  • Now this would limit, of course, the quality and spontaneity
  • of our relationship.
  • But I accept that on the grounds that these are not people,
  • in the first place, that I have picked personally to relate to.
  • These are people who I've been thrown in
  • with on the basis of work, of getting a job done,
  • of performing some service.
  • And so another way of putting this
  • is that people who want to grow and want
  • to express the best in themselves
  • have to find those people that this can work with,
  • that this can happen among.
  • (pause in recording)
  • No.
  • All I'm advocating is that once you have made your attempt,
  • once you see that the other person isn't interested,
  • or that in some way, the level of freedom of personal identity
  • which you were able to reach for exceeds him
  • in a way that embarrasses him inside,
  • then you become a threat to him.
  • The more you open up, the more you threaten him.
  • And it does him no good if he's really become an impoverished
  • person who cannot grow.
  • I think in that case, the kindest thing to do
  • is to not expose him to your needs for a human relatedness.
  • You have to simply say, OK, you know, this man, to me,
  • is like the person who drives the bus or the person who
  • works next to me at work who I can't talk to for some reason.
  • But people do accept these limitations,
  • not because they're permanent and inherent blocks
  • within themselves, but simply because we grow up
  • in a world that is brutal, that is barbaric.
  • We're still living in the dark ages.
  • There are many, many people who grow up
  • stunted, meaning psychologically, who
  • can't relate, who can't face their inner feelings,
  • who can't face tendencies which may prove, in the end,
  • to be deviant at all.
  • And people such as ourselves who are able to go beyond that,
  • I think, have to have some kind of basis respect for human
  • beings and have to respect the rights of those who cannot
  • reach the levels that we're talking about.
  • And I don't think that is at all snobbish.
  • I think it's very responsible and very human to do that.