Audio Interview, Denise Finnerty and Courtney Miche, June 5, 2013

EVELYN BAILEY: This is Wednesday, June 5.

And I've asked Denise Finnerty and Courtney

Miche to come to the library at the Gay Alliance

to talk about their story and their involvement

in gay activities here in Rochester.

Correct that to Courtney Miche.

So Denise and Courtney, together or individually,

where were you born?

Were you born in Rochester?

COURTNEY MICHE: I was born in Rochester, New York

at Rochester General Hospital in 1984.

EVELYN BAILEY: And did you grow up here?

COURTNEY MICHE: Yeah.

I grew up in the 10th Ward of the city off of Dewey.

Spent some time living in Irondequoit

and spent some time living in Fairport

when I was in high school.

EVELYN BAILEY: And did you go to college?

COURTNEY MICHE: I did.

I just am graduating from SUNY Brockport this year.

EVELYN BAILEY: Congratulations.

COURTNEY MICHE: Thank you.

EVELYN BAILEY: How about you, Denise?

DENISE FINNERTY: I grew up in Liverpool,

a suburb outside of Syracuse.

I went to Liverpool High School and graduated in '99,

and came to RIT and graduated with an engineering degree

in 2004, and I've been here ever since.

EVELYN BAILEY: And while you were

at RIT, were you acquainted or familiar with the LGBT group

on campus?

DENISE FINNERTY: Yes, I was familiar with RITGA

at the time.

I actually didn't come out until just before my senior year.

I was twenty-three years old, so I

was a little bit of a late bloomer when I figured it out.

And I knew about the RIT Gay Alliance, which is RITGA,

on campus.

At the time, they were more of a social group,

and I was probably looking for a little bit more activism

at the time.

EVELYN BAILEY: Mm-hm.

And Courtney, when you came out, were you

in high school, college, or--

COURTNEY MICHE: I actually started college

back in 2002 out in Oneonta.

And it was the first summer-- the summer

after my first year of college that I

started dating one of my best friends

from high school who was also a female.

And I'll leave her name out.

I don't have her permission to participate in this.

But that was when I started coming out.

EVELYN BAILEY: And were their resources

for you to access here in Rochester

to help you in that process?

Or how did you connect with other lesbians?

COURTNEY MICHE: There was a Gay-Straight Alliance

at my college in Oneonta, but I was--

even though my girlfriend and I at that point dated,

we weren't out to a lot of people yet at that point,

and didn't have a tremendous amount of family support

at first.

And I wasn't yet connected with the LGBT community of Rochester

at that point yet.

So it did feel very lonely out in Oneonta,

and it was a very depressing time.

EVELYN BAILEY: Mm-hm.

How did you get connected to Rochester?

COURTNEY MICHE: My first couple of years of college,

I was actually pretty depressed, and I had a pretty hard time

coming out to begin with.

And I decided to take some time off of school

and moved back to Rochester.

I got my first apartment with a roommate out on my own

at that point.

And I needed some new friends.

I needed to connect.

And I ended up finding the youth group here at the Gay Alliance,

and met some friends through the youth group and the young adult

group there at that point.

It was for eighteen to twenty-five-year-olds.

And the friends that I met through that group really

helped start the community that I kind of embraced and felt

embraced by here in Rochester.

EVELYN BAILEY: Mm-hm.

Who was in charge of the youth group at that--

who was the person in--

DENISE FINNERTY: (whispering) Toby.

COURTNEY MICHE: Toby Greenfield.

EVELYN BAILEY: Toby.

And were you here when Jess Cohen took over?

Were you involved when Jess--

COURTNEY MICHE: We were transitioning out

of a youth group probably--

DENISE FINNERTY: Due to age.

COURTNEY MICHE: --at that time.

DENISE FINNERTY: Due to age.

EVELYN BAILEY: OK.

And how did you get connected to other lesbians

here in Rochester, or other gay men and women, Denise?

DENISE FINNERTY: When I came out,

I was doing a lot of online communication and networking.

I still wasn't completely out.

And a friend of mine, actually Jess Cohen,

recommended going to the Gay Alliance

at that point in the youth center.

So after, you know, networking online

and meeting some people that were affiliated with the Gay

Alliance, I took a step, and went to my first,

you know, youth center meeting when it still over

actually on--

it was the old Gay Alliance place.

EVELYN BAILEY: Atlantic?

DENISE FINNERTY: Yeah, Atlantic.

The youth center here at the Gay Alliance,

at the auditorium center, still wasn't even open.

I had been there a couple months, and a couple months

previous or prior to the opening of the center.

And I was part of opening up the center the first day it opened.

Judy Shepard was actually here, and she

came to talk about bullying and hate crimes,

and what she had been doing for Matthew Shepard

and the foundation and stuff.

I remember, I brought my cousin and my best friend,

and I was scared to death to even be here at the time.

I was still very nervous, still very much coming out.

Networking with people online and helping them with resources

and understanding actually helped me to better understand

what I was going through.

It's one of those--

you know, I became more comfortable with myself

through helping others.

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

Would you-- how would you characterize

the significance of the youth group in your lives?

COURTNEY MICHE: Well, I met my amazing partner through that.

I mean, we met at the pride picnic,

and I guess we were both a part of the young adult group,

but I had just started, so we were

missing each other at meetings.

But I met Denise at that pride picnic,

and then we both discovered we were going

to the same young adult group.

And that was a pretty big part of our lives

together for our first year of dating, I'd say.

EVELYN BAILEY: Did you find at the youth group what

you were looking for?

I mean, did you find support?

Did you--

COURTNEY MICHE: Yes, definitely.

EVELYN BAILEY: Is it a valuable experience?

Was it a valuable experience for the two of you?

DENISE FINNERTY: Yes.

It was definitely a valuable experience.

It was just a confirmation, a way

for people to gather and get support where they needed it

or to socialize or get more resources or a place

to come when, you know, people's families were--

pretty much tossed them out on the street.

It was definitely an intricate part

of a lot of people's lives.

A lot of the people I knew were here as often as they could,

either helping out or just networking

because they had trouble being at home.

So it was definitely a valuable resource.

Me personally, I had a somewhat more supportive family.

It took them a little while.

Took them probably a good year.

But being that we're so close, you know,

there was never a huge rift there.

And my friends for the most part were pretty supportive as well.

So I had an OK time coming out, so I was able to be, you know,

there as support for other individuals

who were not as fortunate.

EVELYN BAILEY: Mm-hm.

When you look at Rochester and other areas,

because you're from Liverpool, and I

know you were born in Rochester and grew up here,

do other geographic areas have the resources for you

that you find here?

DENISE FINNERTY: It's funny, because now they do.

But there was a vast difference between--

I graduated from Liverpool High School in 1999,

and at that point, there was no Gay Alliance.

Kids were still getting beaten up.

I knew in the back of my mind what I was dealing with,

but I could not set forward in motion

any words or any true feeling to what was going on.

Between that time and, I'd say, 2002 when Courtney graduated

and Courtney had a Gay-Straight Alliance at her high school,

it seemed to be a real turning point in between those years.

Like, '98, '99, up until, like, 2001, 2002.

Just something within those years, I just--

I feel like there was almost, like, a light switch.

People just started to kind of get it from that point forward.

Because then after I graduated, about a year or two after,

my high school did have a great Gay-Straight Alliance.

EVELYN BAILEY: Mm-hm.

And in your high school, Courtney,

were there students who were gay who experienced prejudice,

who experienced being harassed?

Or was that just, like, not even on the radar screen?

COURTNEY MICHE: I'm sure there were.

I wasn't out yet in high school.

One of my best friends was gay, and I was one of the few people

that he was out with in high school.

And I didn't personally experience or observe

a whole lot of bullying, but I was pretty isolated.

I was the editor of the yearbook,

so I was always kind of in this closet,

working on the yearbook for years and years.

But I know that there was a Gay Alliance,

and I remember some friends going to it,

but pretending they were going to other things,

telling their friends that they were going to it.

It was a little bit more of an underground.

EVELYN BAILEY: Do you know, for either of you,

if your schools, high schools had any policies regarding

bullying, or--

COURTNEY MICHE: When I was out in Fairport,

they definitely did.

They had a Brotherhood-Sisterhood Week

and a Civility, Awareness, Respect, Tolerance theme.

And they worked very, very hard on bullying and tolerance

and respect.

And so that always sticks out to me

as being a big part of my high school experience,

and I do think it really has shaped me

as an adult and my values as an adult,

and what I'd like to provide for other youth and people

in the community.

EVELYN BAILEY: Mm-hm.

And in your high school--

DENISE FINNERTY: There was nothing, unfortunately.

There needed to be.

There was a lot of--

my high school is a big sports school.

A lot of politics as well.

Like I said, a lot of people who were out

were harassed regularly.

I see a big difference personally

between Syracuse and Rochester.

Rochester has a lot more and has had a lot more resources.

I don't know-- just the area, you know,

we never really had a Gay Alliance in Syracuse,

at that point at least.

I had an English teacher that everybody pretty much

knew was gay, but he never really spoke of it.

And actually, he was the one years later

to take over the Gay Alliance.

EVELYN BAILEY: Mm-hm.

So you came to Rochester or came to the youth group.

How did you become involved, quote, unquote, "politically,"

or as an activist or more visible?

COURTNEY MICHE: I'd say for me, it was a process.

I came back to Rochester extremely depressed.

I was hospitalized for depression for a while.

My mother and I didn't speak for a couple of years.

She had a very hard time with my coming out and her own journey

with it.

And we've come through a great journey together,

and she's now very accepting and loving.

But I was in a very, very depressed place.

And for me, it was about gaining independence.

Even as a nineteen and twenty-year-old,

getting my own apartment and trying to find some footing,

and trying to even connect with any friends or anybody back

in Rochester, because it felt like a different place

after coming back two years later.

And I felt like this youth group and the Gay Alliance

was my first big step of having a community space to go

to where there were--

you know, at that point, I was kind of a young adult.

I was in transition from being a youth,

and still had a lot of growing up to do.

I hadn't-- I mean, I was just out of my very first

relationship.

I didn't even date in high school.

So there was a lot people are exposed to in adolescence

that I was still experiencing as a young adult.

And the Gay Alliance really truly helped

me to grow in that way in a safe space,

providing people to talk with and fun things to do.

And not only support, but just even connections with others.

And I was so, so shy.

And so finding the people to connect with and making friends

was a huge part.

And then I was introduced to activism.

And Todd Plank coming.

He worked at the Empire State Pride Agenda, and at that point

had an office in the Gay Alliance,

so he kind of recruited Denise and I

into volunteering for the Gay Alliance at that point.

It was really kind of this process.

EVELYN BAILEY: So it was Todd Plank who kind of pulled you

in to becoming more active--

COURTNEY MICHE: Yes, definitely.

EVELYN BAILEY: --in gay issues.

And you first worked in the office or helped him--

COURTNEY MICHE: He had us go out to events like Buffalo

Pride and Rochester Pride.

He pulled us into a marriage ambassador training

where we met Anne Tischer and Bess Watts and other community

leaders.

He just invited us to the training.

We went through the two-day-long training.

He pulled us in and had us help with phone banking.

He drove us out to Buffalo Pride and helped

us collect postcards, things like that.

So that's all stuff that's incorporated into my life now.

And I've grown as an activist, and even in my job,

that all started with Todd.

He'll always be my big gay hero.

(laughs)

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

And how about you, Denise?

How did you make the jump into--

well, you indicated that you were

always interested in some sort of activism or being outspoken.

DENISE FINNERTY: Yeah, it definitely

didn't really kick in until I came out, though.

I came out December of 2003.

And 2004, I joined the Gay Alliance.

And I'd say the first Equality & Justice Day

that I went to was with Toby and a van full of youth.

And there was only, like, seven or eight of us.

And at the time, it was pretty much

that people went out on their own to go to the event.

And just seeing-- you know, at that point,

we were still fighting for dignity for all students.

You know, marriage and GENDA and then

LGBT Health and Human Services.

And unfortunately, we still have to pass GENDA.

But that same year as well, I mean,

2004 was a big kind of turning point for me.

That year, I tried to also--

I knew that the Gay Alliance was doing the Day of Silence.

And I tried to do the Day of Silence on RIT's campus,

and didn't really have a whole lot of help

from RIT's Gay Alliance and some of the other resources.

So my friends that I tried to get that going in partnership

with the Gay Alliance as well.

And just trying to understand the struggle of other people

was very frustrating.

So it definitely kicked in for me

to want to fight for more for more rights, more equality,

and just justice for-- in general, I just

was seeing what was going on with youth

and with the LGBT population in general,

and it was just very frustrating.

And it ignites a passion in you, and it just never stopped

from there on out.

And then after I met Courtney, you know, we met Todd.

We went through the marriage ambassador training,

like she said.

I was always involved in the different groups

here at the youth center, whether it be writers group

or more of an active role of, you know, activism in general.

I just like to be involved, personally.

EVELYN BAILEY: And what--

in the beginning when you were involved with marriage

equality, what were you seeing?

Were people supportive?

Were people willing to sign your petitions?

And can you tell me a little bit about Anne and Bess?

COURTNEY MICHE: I think so.

Working on marriage equality, it feels like support

through my past eight years of volunteering for marriage

equality, support has just kind of

grown exponentially in New York through its passage.

Yeah, I was interested in LGBTQ rights and other activist

issues prior to volunteering with Todd.

But I felt like specifically with marriage equality,

I learned a ton through that process,

and just kind of was exposed to this very changing--

I mean, even one summer to next, collecting postcards or working

events, it felt like the community was more and more

accepting very rapidly.

EVELYN BAILEY: Mm-hm.

And what kind of an activist was Anne Tischer?

COURTNEY MICHE: Anne Tischer we met through Todd

at the marriage ambassador training.

The first thing that comes to mind when you say the word Anne

Tischer is passion.

I haven't met any individual with more passion than Anne

Tischer in my entire existence.

DENISE FINNERTY: Except maybe Todd.

Todd and Anne.

COURTNEY MICHE: She is just--

there's no stopping her.

EVELYN BAILEY: And would you say that about Todd as well?

COURTNEY MICHE: Yeah, at the point

that I was volunteering with him when

he was working with the Pride Agenda

and with Equality Rochester for sure.

And the two of them were very good friends, and just very

inspirational to see the two of them work together

and kind of be a part of that.

You know, what they were leading on and bringing

for younger people to--

DENISE FINNERTY: Yeah, even when,

like, we had some fallbacks and some setbacks

with some of the decisions that didn't go through right away,

they were always, you know, very positive and just saying,

you know, we'll get them the next time,

and we've just got to get back out there and continue on,

and it will come in time.

They were just always an inspiration to keep going.

EVELYN BAILEY: Mm-hm.

And so you began with marriage equality in 2000--

DENISE FINNERTY: '04.

EVELYN BAILEY: '04?

DENISE FINNERTY: Well--

COURTNEY MICHE: 2005 for me.

2005, 2006.

We met in 2005.

DENISE FINNERTY: Yeah.

COURTNEY MICHE: Slowly started getting more active

probably 2006.

DENISE FINNERTY: Yeah.

I wasn't as active in 2004.

I mean, I was doing stuff here with the Gay Alliance youth

group at that time.

You know, I knew who Todd was.

Todd would come in.

But I wasn't as connected with Todd at that point.

EVELYN BAILEY: So it was really like in 2005 that you kind of--

they kind of grabbed on or you grabbed on to it

and ran with it.

And so six years later, June 28, 2011, you

finally have a vote in the Senate

that's going to take place.

What was your reaction to the fact

that the Senate finally passed marriage equality?

I mean, the Assembly had done it many, many, many times before.

Do you remember where you were?

COURTNEY MICHE: Yeah, we were at-- we

were both at Equal Grounds.

We were surrounded by people that we

had volunteered with on the marriage equality campaign.

DENISE FINNERTY: We were just coming from a phone bank,

as a matter of fact.

COURTNEY MICHE: Yep.

We were just coming from a phone bank off

of that for marriage equality, and then went straight

to watch.

I mean, we were doing phone--

we were doing phone calls out to constituents

to call their senators literally up into a couple

hours of the vote.

Like, right up to the last minute.

And I just-- it was an ecstatic feeling.

It was a huge sense of just excitement and joy

within the community, I think, because we were just

in this room.

I mean, we've been going to Equal Grounds coffee

shop for years, and I've never seen so many people

in Equal Grounds at one time, all crowded

around this TV, waiting for--

just waiting for that last final vote, and the place exploded.

And so it was just this--

just incredible feeling to not only--

I mean, for Denise and I, we volunteered for it

together for years.

We had talked about, you know, we

want to get married at some point someday.

And just knowing that now we have here in our home state,

if we choose to here, that that's an option.

It felt like a volunteer thing that we

had done together and worked on together for so long

that it felt like a personal accomplishment together.

As a community, I was surrounded by people

that I watched work tirelessly.

Jim Melecca Voigt and Christine Melecca Voigt

we were both there as well, and they

were a huge part of the leadership with marriage

equality.

Jim Melecca Voigt was kind of the leader of marriage equality

in New York at that point.

They had worked tirelessly on it,

and seeing how ecstatic and happy they were

was just amazing.

A lot of people who were volunteering-- who just, you

know, either volunteered for years or just even

over that past summer, just given

so many hours of their time.

And just to see people so--

EVELYN BAILEY: Mm-hm.

DENISE FINNERTY: I can remember, if you

want some more historical background,

I remember the February just before going

to (unintelligible) Top Summit in Albany with Anne,

we actually drove out, and that kind of being a lot of the top

figureheads where they're kind of brainstorming.

And I just remember thinking, from here on out

until a decision, it's going to be a crazy journey,

and it definitely was.

From that point forward, we were meeting weekly just about,

especially from March forward.

We had gathered groups.

We were called Marriage Equality New York.

But New Yorkers United for Marriage

actually consisted of HRC, Marriage Equality New York,

Empire State Pride Agenda, Pride at Work,

and a couple other organizations,

including the Gay Alliance.

And we met and brainstormed, and all of us

had different connections and different networks

through that time.

And we just worked tirelessly.

I remember on the weekends, we would go to the public market

and collect just hundreds of postcards,

collect hundreds of signatures in support

of marriage equality.

And during that time, you could feel the momentum building

through the public.

And at the very end, I mean, people

were definitely on board.

You could see it.

EVELYN BAILEY: Who came up with the idea of the postcards?

I think you had to send Senator Alesi 100 postcards a week

to impress upon him the--

COURTNEY MICHE: So I think it was way more than 100 a week.

DENISE FINNERTY: They wanted at least 100.

But we were doing probably per week probably 200 to 300.

COURTNEY MICHE: I don't even-- it felt like--

DENISE FINNERTY: It might have been more than that.

COURTNEY MICHE: I think we counted something

like 10,000 from around this area between the--

but not just his district, but between Robach's and--

which was over a span of months.

I don't know who came up with the idea, but it was just--

I mean, they had postcards with all the organization

names on it.

We were just helping to collect those.

We were also doing stop and dials at the market,

just walking up to strangers and putting them on the phone

and asking them to dial Senator Robach, Senator Alesi.

There was a lot of emphasis put on Senator Alesi's district,

working as many events.

Fairport Canal Days, any kind of event in his district.

DENISE FINNERTY: Any of the Rochester festivals,

we were there.

The Lilac Fest that year.

Like she said, the Fairport Canal Days, Park Avenue.

You know, anything we could get to, we were there.

You know, during the week, weekdays,

any time we could get out to Albany

to do lobbying-- we were probably out in Albany, like,

five times that year doing lobbying.

And you know, just trying to get the word out there.

EVELYN BAILEY: So on an average per week,

how many hours did you spend--

(laughter)

Aside from--

COURTNEY MICHE: I was a full-time student that

semester, and I think my grades had quite a bit--

I definitely didn't perform very well in school

during that time, but I have no regrets.

It just kind of became--

not for years and years, but during that last stretch

of that campaign.

Then it became, like, a full-time volunteer

whenever we can.

DENISE FINNERTY: I used to leave work and go right

to wherever everybody else was.

I'm guilty of calling in a couple of days

and having the equality flu during that time

period, especially to go out to, like--

I can remember once going out to Albany at the very end,

and just going to some-- a couple other events.

You know, I kind of played hooky.

(laughs)

COURTNEY MICHE: And for us, it was--

we recognized the seriousness.

You know, for Denise and I, we're young

and we're talking about getting married someday at some point.

We recognize the seriousness of others in the community who

have been waiting for years and years

and have been together for years,

and really need that health insurance coverage,

and really need protections to see each other in hospitals

or deal with each other after death and taxes, and so many

other things.

So we recognize the seriousness of all that.

And at the same time, for Denise and I, it was fun.

(laughs)

It was a really enjoyable--

it was like, we recognized the seriousness,

and it's horrific that these rights aren't there.

But it's also been a really enjoyable experience for us

together as a couple to be involved in this work because

of all the friends that we've met in the community,

and how much we've learned, and how

I can apply what I've learned with marriage equality

to other issues that I care about.

It's really been a good experience too in that regard.

EVELYN BAILEY: Mm-hm.

So when the Assembly and Senate finally

passed marriage equality, what do you

think is the next step that New York has to take?

COURTNEY MICHE: Well, for me, I currently

work for the Empire State Pride Agenda

as Rochester's organizer, and we're

working on the Gender Expression Non-Discrimination

Act, which they've been trying to pass for years as well.

It's still legal in New York State

to fire somebody or deny them housing for being transgender.

And to me, that's unacceptable.

And a lot of the trans community was out

fighting for marriage equality and with the LGBT community

for years, and I feel it's just as important for us

to keep fighting for trans equality in New York

State, not just locally but statewide,

and nationally as well.

You know, we know a lot of LGBTQ couples

who are impacted by immigration policy,

and I think we need to keep fighting

for better policy nationally that

would include LGBT people in the immigration reform.

I think there are so many issues around poverty and class

and race, and it's just--

I mean, you have to keep fighting

for equality across the board.

EVELYN BAILEY: What drives you?

COURTNEY MICHE: Dunkin' Donuts coffee.

(laughter)

DENISE FINNERTY: No, honestly--

COURTNEY MICHE: I just have a coffee.

(laughter)

DENISE FINNERTY: I can probably answer that.

She's always been, as far as--

since I've known her, very justice-oriented, you know?

She's always been one to speak up

in terms of even the smallest person that

can't speak up for themselves.

She's always been one to--

you know, even in a group full of people

that either don't care or are against,

she is the one to stand up to say, you know, hey.

Something's not right here, you know?

And to kind of speak out in support

or sometimes against when she feels like something

is just and right.

She's always been very outspoken and just very justice-oriented.

I actually called her my little hall monitor sometimes as,

like, a little joke, because--

COURTNEY MICHE: That's true.

I was a hall monitor in elementary school.

DENISE FINNERTY: She would make a very good lawyer someday.

I just-- I always tell her that.

She's just very-- anything she feels,

she's got a passion for it.

I'm a little bit more laid back, but you know,

and I still fight up front for everything,

but she's definitely-- she's got a lot of passion.

So it's a very good thing.

EVELYN BAILEY: And what drives you, Denise?

DENISE FINNERTY: Probably the same thing.

It's just-- it's a feeling that it's right, you know?

A feeling of equality and just--

I like being active.

I like networking.

I like being around people.

And when you see individuals that are suffering

and who can't obtain basic human rights, it's very frustrating.

And I too like to do, I guess, what is right and just.

And it's just a passion.

It's never really left.

And so I started getting more active in 2004.

EVELYN BAILEY: And-- go ahead.

COURTNEY MICHE: I just--

a lot of people think that we have very little power

in the United States.

That, you know, the president and the Congress and the people

have very little voice.

And for me, you know, Todd Plank introduced me to it,

and I've had other leaders in the community.

Anne Tischer really pulled Denise and I into her kitchen,

sat us down, and said, I really need you

to come help that this, ladies.

DENISE FINNERTY: Cookies.

COURTNEY MICHE: There's definitely

been some community leaders that have really pulled us in.

But for me, I even remember Jo Melecca Voigt

sitting us down years ago and explaining,

this is how the New York State Senate and Assembly works,

and how all the bills go through committees and, you know,

really even explaining the process to me.

That's back when I was nineteen or something like that.

I feel like along the way I've learned that locally

and statewide, we really have power

as individuals in this community to make a difference.

And that wasn't a sense that I had,

I don't think, growing up as much.

And ironically, even in the LGBT community

where we're oppressed and don't have the right

to get married everywhere, and don't have the right

to adopt kids, and you go places and there's

death threats and bullying and so much conflict

there, at the same time for me, that's

where I started to find a sense of worth and a sense of power

and a sense of, I can make a difference.

Not just ideologically or not just volunteer--

I volunteered in animal shelters and groups and community things

growing up.

But I have a power to be a part of a group that

can make a policy change, and that's huge for me.

I think everybody can tap into that

and find something if that's what

they're interested in doing.

But I do feel like leaders in this community

have really brought that to my attention,

that we do have the power to make a change.

And it's not that far out of the realm.

My mother lives in South Carolina.

My sister lives in Indiana.

And my other sister also lives in South Carolina.

They can't wrap their heads around why

Denise and I wouldn't want to just move to South Carolina

or Indiana, closer to them.

And they're like, well, you know, people are nicer

and you two just move in a community,

and people are going to be nice to you.

And it's like, no.

You don't get it.

We want to be able to get married.

We want to adopt kids.

We want to know that when we adopt kids that both of us

have the same legal protections with those kids.

We want to have long-term legal protections,

and we don't want to have to spend our entire lives fighting

on just one issue.

We want to be able to work on other issues.

And for them, it's more of a, what is the neighborhood

think-type of a thing?

And for me, it's, no.

What legal rights do we have?

And so I feel like when we're volunteering

and when we were volunteering in New York

and in Alesi's district, and if we got his vote,

and if we got just a few Republicans on board, which

means enough community members in that neighborhood have

to get that senator's vote, that could make a statewide law

change.

And if New York changes their law, what kind of domino effect

does it have in the rest of the country?

So it's not we individual people have created that change,

but we the community have created that change,

and we the state have created that change that

wasn't unattainable.

And so I kind of go in with that spirit of,

we can move that to other--

I don't know.

It's just-- it's very important to me

now, now that I've discovered that I

can be part of this change, that now I

must be part of this change.

DENISE FINNERTY: And we were told at the time

that, you know, historically when

New York moves on an issue, a lot of states will follow.

And they have since.

You've seen it, since 2006.

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

DENISE FINNERTY: I'm sorry.

2011.

There's been a bunch of states that have gone

in favor of marriage equality.

It took a little while for the group of us

to learn the power of grassroots movement and grassroots

activism, actually getting on the pavement, pounding

pavement, and meeting people and outreaching to people,

and talking with people and getting the head, heart,

and gut for stories.

And just the importance of letting people know, you know,

hey.

We're your neighbors.

We're your everyday average people that contribute

to society, and this is why.

This is the right thing to do.

And I think people got it after a while, you know?

I just remember that was a big thing

I think we were missing previous to that,

was just-- you know, previous to that, we'd go out

and we'd do rallies and stuff, which were great.

We'd show visually, you know, our presence.

But when we went back home, there

wasn't as much to do after that.

There wasn't any follow-up.

And I think the grassroots--

COURTNEY MICHE: I think that's all part of it.

DENISE FINNERTY: Yeah.

COURTNEY MICHE: I think it all works together.

DENISE FINNERTY: It does.

COURTNEY MICHE: You need it all.

DENISE FINNERTY: But I think the grassroots activism was

the tipping point for a lot of it,

because we actually were able to get out and get constituents,

you know, of some of these senators' postcards signed.

COURTNEY MICHE: I don't know.

I think everybody--

I think everybody plays a role in that.

Then that was my point with that, is I don't--

it doesn't necessarily need to be the community

leaders and the community people who

are recognized as whatever, that everybody has power

in their own way, whether it's showing up for a rally

or going out and collecting petitions, or just being out

with their neighbors and friends.

That is changing attitudes.

That is making people more likely to want

to sign all those things.

I mean, we all take a part in that,

and everybody has the power to be a part of that change.

And it's not unattainable, is where I was getting with that.

It's not this big, oh, the government's

never going to change.

Well, we just need to be more out and open

and have these conversations with everybody around us.

EVELYN BAILEY: What beside your political activism

and your obvious passion for equality and justice,

where did all of that come from?

Like, I'll give you my twenty-five cent theory.

Between the age of zero and five,

you have all the components and everything within you

that is going to be where you will go and what you become.

That doesn't mean you're not influenced,

you're not altered by events, you're not shaped by events.

But there is a rootedness in both of you that--

(tapping)

--not only is this important.

This-- is-- the-- right-- thing-- to-- do.

Where does that come from?

COURTNEY MICHE: I don't know.

DENISE FINNERTY: I was kind of always the same way as a kid

too.

Like, I don't know.

Just being nice to people.

You know, not bullying.

I don't know.

Maybe from my

EVELYN BAILEY: Well, and I'm not necessarily

expecting an answer defined--

DENISE FINNERTY: But it is interesting.

EVELYN BAILEY: --but I think--

I mean, I've given a great deal of thought to that.

I think most activists, when they went up against the wall,

they have to step back and say, why am I doing this?

Why am I banging my head against a wall?

What drives me to such passion and activity that that is for

me the only direction I can go in?

Because others would turn a side and go to the left

or go to the right versus continuing the direction

that continues to meet opposition.

COURTNEY MICHE: I don't know.

I sure have asked myself a lot with that while being--

trying to be an activist and a college

student at the same time, because you definitely make

sacrifices.

Definitely could have a different college transcript

if I had been committing myself to completely college

instead of so involved.

Because with activism, you're working with a group.

You're working on a team.

You're working with others.

You're not doing a project by yourself.

And you feel this sense of, what I'm doing, whether or not

I can make a difference or not, whether or not

what I'm doing today will make a difference,

there could be that 0.5 percent chance that it

could make a difference.

It's just when you feel like you're

doing something for somebody else

or that there's some wrong or injustice happening, that's