Audio Interview, Elizabeth Bell, February 7, 2012

EVELYN BAILEY: We're going to record this for posterity.

LIZ BELL: Sure.

EVELYN BAILEY: Liz Bell was in the original group at the Gay

Liberation Front.

She also was one of the women behind Women Against

Violence Against Women?

LIZ BELL: No.

That was Nancy Rosen.

I was out of town.

I had left by that time.

EVELYN BAILEY: OK.

LIZ BELL: I was in the early stages of it.

But then it happened when I moved to Philly.

EVELYN BAILEY: OK.

So you never stood there and threw paint on--

LIZ BELL: Nope.

EVELYN BAILEY: --the black velvet signs

on Monroe? (laughs)

LIZ BELL: No, no no.

I was in contact with Nancy and Sylvia and all those guys.

And I heard the stories.

(phone ringing)

EVELYN BAILEY: Oh, god.

LIZ BELL: But I was not (unintelligible) in fact--

EVELYN BAILEY: All right.

You continue.

I have to take this.

LIZ BELL: That's part of the Philadelphia story

that I left here--

I'm not so good at dates--

but I left here.

I went to Philadelphia.

And at the University of Pennsylvania,

they were having a women's only dance.

And I had gotten this really nice three-piece suit

from Goodwill-- a little vest.

Brown tweed.

And I went into the dance.

But at the door, I got stopped.

And they said, oh, I'm sorry.

This is a women's only affair.

And I lifted my front and I said, oh, I'm sorry.

(laughter)

KEVIN INDOVINO: Oh my god.

LIZ BELL: It was times.

But if you're looking for articles,

they would be, like, early '70s.

And there's one about--

I was hanging out with my friends.

They were going to take me to James's--

no, not James's.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Jim's.

LIZ BELL: The baths.

No, we used to call it James's.

We used to go dancing at James's every Monday

night when it was empty.

KEVIN INDOVINO: I'm not even sure I know where James's was.

LIZ BELL: James's is Jim's.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Was Jim's.

OK.

LIZ BELL: But we always used to dress it up.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So you'd come up with James.

LIZ BELL: James's.

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK. (laughs)

LIZ BELL: But they were going to take me to the baths.

It was before the AIDS thing.

And I was just really envious of how men could have,

let's get together for a date.

Let's go for a movie, let's go for dinner, let's have sex,

let's have da, da, da, da, da, da.

And I had this thing I wrote called "The Appetite Theory."

And it was about, why can't lesbians do that?

Why can't we just get together, have sex, and not have to get--

I was non-monogamous.

I was exploring non-monogamy.

And it was hard.

I mean, it was hard.

But anyway, so there's articles about that, as I remember.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Let's go back to GLF.

Were you part of the original founding group?

Or did you--

LIZ BELL: The original founding group was Karen, and RJ,

and then the third person, I'm not

sure she wants her name mentioned.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, the people I know are Patti--

LIZ BELL: Oh, they weren't--

that was the second gen.

KEVIN INDOVINO: They weren't the--

that was second generation.

OK.

LIZ BELL: First--

KEVIN INDOVINO: Let's see.

There was Karen.

There was RJ.

There was Whitey LeBlanc, I think, right?

LIZ BELL: No, he's second generation too.

KEVIN INDOVINO: He's second generation.

LIZ BELL: I was that generation.

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.

LIZ BELL: There was a drag queen that has transitioned

from male to female--

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.

LIZ BELL: --and has disappeared.

I would love to find her.

But there was a third person that was a drag queen.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Sure.

Sure.

So you were part of the original founding group, then.

LIZ BELL: Yes.

Well, the original founding was those three.

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.

LIZ BELL: RJ Alcala and this other person.

And then we all came on board and met at the U of R.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Right.

LIZ BELL: And my partner was Marge David.

And we were kind of iconic.

And I graduated and she became head of the GLF on campus.

And I was there for that first dance.

And it was men and women working together-- well,

before that, even, the other piece that I wanted

to throw into the mix, if it hasn't been thrown in,

is imagining the world without the existence of the word

lesbian.

Without the existence of the word gay.

I came out, fell in love with a woman,

before I ever heard the word.

My father had asked me in high school, was I a lesbian.

And I had never heard the word.

And I knew from the tone of voice that it was bad.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Mm-hm.

LIZ BELL: And that was the only--

but I wasn't sure if he said thespian.

I wasn't sure what he said.

I just knew that I'd better say no.

So the silence was the shoulders that we were standing on.

And at the same time that I fell in love with Marge--

and I didn't know what the feelings were.

I had never felt them before.

I was dating men.

But I was more friends with men, you know?

I didn't have any idea--

none of us did.

I asked Marge if I could talk freely about her.

So, somebody on campus had asked Marge and I--

I mean, we were just tight.

But it was more than friendship.

And somebody who worked on campus was going out of town,

had a house, and said, would you like to house-sit?

And so we went over and house-sat,

and made dinner, played, did our usual thing.

But instead of having her in one room and me

in the other room in the dorms, all of a sudden,

there was this double bed.

And it was like, oh my god.

And it was like going to the movies.

And then the movie ended.

And the couple came back.

And we went back to campus.

And all of a sudden it was real world.

You know?

And that was when I learned the word lesbian.

So, I wanted to throw that in there.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Roughly, was that late '60s?

Early '70s?

LIZ BELL: It would have been--

when did GLF start?

'71?

KEVIN INDOVINO: '71, '72, somewhere around there.

LIZ BELL: Something like that.

And it would have been--

oh, it would have been my junior year.

It would have been 1970.

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.

LIZ BELL: I was her RA.

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.

LIZ BELL: Yeah.

And then-- yeah.

KEVIN INDOVINO: What were you studying?

LIZ BELL: I wanted to be a doctor.

But in those days, girls couldn't be doctors.

Or at least not in my neighborhood.

So I was in nursing.

But that same year, I decided I didn't want to be a nurse.

I wanted to be a doctor.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Mm-hm.

LIZ BELL: So I became an English major.

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.

LIZ BELL: (unintelligible) went to college for.

And then the other piece was--

oh.

So then there was also a guy named--

have you heard about Marshall?

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah--

LIZ BELL: Marshall Goldman?

KEVIN INDOVINO: No, I think Evelyn has maybe mentioned

his name, but--

LIZ BELL: He's no longer alive.

But his name needs to be lifted up.

He was one of the moving forces on the U of R campus.

Karen, and RJ were more Eastman.

And the other person--

the tranny-- well, what would we call--

we'll call her the drag queen.

She worked at a beauty salon.

No, then she was a he.

He worked at a beauty salon.

Do you know this person?

EVELYN BAILEY: The transvestite?

No.

LIZ BELL: OK.

I'm leaving her unnamed.

She's transitioned.

And she's no longer part of the community.

EVELYN BAILEY: OK.

LIZ BELL: But I think it's important

that we recognize that the original founding parents,

in my book, they were Karen, RJ, and this tranny.

EVELYN BAILEY: And this--

LIZ BELL: Hm?

EVELYN BAILEY: And this--

who's the third person?

LIZ BELL: It was a person I'm leaving unnamed.

EVELYN BAILEY: OK.

What about Bob Osborne?

LIZ BELL: He kind of came right after.

I mean, Karen and RJ and this other person--

you'd have to talk to them.

They were the seed.

And then right on top of that was Bob Osborne, and Patti,

and John Grace, and myself, and Marge, and Marshall.

I mean, there was just this flood.

But it was the three of them that kind of--

and in my mind, it's important that the drag queen

be mentioned.

Because for years--

I remember going to a march on Washington.

And it was a big issue whether drag queens and transvestites

had a right to be part of it.

They were an embarrassment.

You know?

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

LIZ BELL: And so they were boycotted.

And I just, for that reason, if no else,

I think it's important that we recognize

that a very seminal root--

seminal?

Maybe that's-- or should I say, a germinal--

part of the seed was that link of the community.

EVELYN BAILEY: So, this was before the actual formation

of the GLF.

LIZ BELL: Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

This was the idea phase.

EVELYN BAILEY: OK.

OK.

LIZ BELL: Yeah.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.

So before there was officially--

LIZ BELL: A GLF.

KEVIN INDOVINO: A GLF.

Yeah.

LIZ BELL: Yeah.

And this person was working at a hair salon

on Monroe Ave. I went in and I said--

you know, that was the years that hair was important--

and I went in, and I said, I want a short haircut.

And he goes, oh, short hair cut.

And gave me a short haircut, very stylish.

And I said, no.

I want it short.

Oh!

Short.

And this was a gay man--

well, no, no.

I'm not sure how he'd describe himself then.

A drag queen, in a straight salon,

that was just camping it up.

You know?

And it was very, very bold.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Mm-hm.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So, what were the early conversations like,

when you guys were getting together and talking

about forming this group, or whatever?

What were the objectives, and what were the conversations?

LIZ BELL: Well, the original conversations

were, like, over at Eastman, with RJ, and Karen,

and this other person.

We'll just call her B. BJ--

well, anyway, you can call her whatever you want.

That's up to Karen and RJ to tell you about.

I was-- Marshall Goldman was the on-campus person.

And he was the person that was kind

of making things happen there.

And Marge and myself.

But he was the moving--

I remember the first meeting that they

held on the U of R campus.

Marge and I were too scared to go in.

And Marshall was there.

And Marshall was talking about, his big heartache

was he lived in the men's dorm.

I think he would have been a freshman or a sophomore.

And he was the one that told the gay jokes.

He used to say, I told the gay jokes,

because then everybody would know that I wasn't gay.

So there was that kind of stuff.

It was always coming out.

Coming out to your parents, coming out on the hall.

There was always stories about coming out to yourself.

Men had more stories about, sissy and being beat up.

The women, the stories were more about,

nobody could play baseball anymore.

It was just recollecting about high school.

Hadn't gotten political yet.

It was more a support group.

And there were people from the community that came in,

met at Todd Union.

And they had a joy, a camp, that for me was very healing.

Because the place that we were coming out of was fear.

The place that we were coming out of

was never having heard the words.

And they showed us the places.

It was the VISTA volunteer who introduced us to the Riverview.

She and her friend, who I think was a grad student

at that point, Rosanne Leipzig--

and I can't remember the VISTA volunteer's name--

they took us down to the Riverview.

And there was a whole contingent, a whole table

of lesbians from RIT/NTID.

And so that whole concept of this,

there we were, lesbians, in this--

well, with one drag queen whose name I can't remember--

Charl-- Ch-- anyway--

who we couldn't talk to.

Because none of us knew sign.

That was before the days that that was political.

And we would dance together.

And we would write notes to each other.

But there was a large group of NTID students.

So we talked about that.

EVELYN BAILEY: Before the actual formation,

what precipitated the conversation?

In other words, what precipitated Marshall Goldman

being interested or wanting to move

in the establishment of some group,

whether it be support group--

what were the precipitating factors for RJ and Karen?

I mean, what was present or not present

that they thought needed to be addressed,

or needed to be dealt with, or needed to be--

LIZ BELL: That would be their story.

For me, as I was telling--

I fell in love before I knew the words.

I fell in love with Marge David.

And I had no idea what--

I had never heard the word lesbian, gay.

I barely heard the word homosexual.

It was falling in love, finding this relationship, that

was profound.

And serendipitously, at the same time, I heard the language.

And the language was said in a proud way,

in an identifying way, in a "come join us" way.

I was born again.

Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: OK.

So you didn't go to the first meeting.

LIZ BELL: No.

Well, I went.

But I stayed outside.

We walked.

EVELYN BAILEY: Did you hear any of the speakers?

Or was that the meeting where Cornell and the machine

society--

LIZ BELL: Oh, no, no, no.

EVELYN BAILEY: --people came?

LIZ BELL: Oh, no, no, no, no.

EVELYN BAILEY: This wasn't a gathering of 100.

LIZ BELL: Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

This was way before that.

This was Todd Union.

This was tiny.

This was, somehow Marshall got wind of it.

And he called a meeting.

EVELYN BAILEY: Do you remember year?

Date?

LIZ BELL: It would have been the fall of--

wait a minute-- the fall of my junior year.

I graduated in '71.

'70-- oh, I would have been '69, then.

The fall of '69.

Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: October.

LIZ BELL: Is that right?

Couldn't have been that.

EVELYN BAILEY: October 3.

No.

It wasn't.

The fall of '69.

You're right.

LIZ BELL: I'd have to ask Marge.

She's better at that stuff than I.

EVELYN BAILEY: That was before.

October 3, 1970, was when the group formally got together.

LIZ BELL: This was before the name.

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.

So, even a year before the official formation

of this group--

LIZ BELL: Yes.

KEVIN INDOVINO: --things were going on.

LIZ BELL: Oh, yes.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah?

LIZ BELL: Oh, yes.

EVELYN BAILEY: And it would have been three,

four months after Stonewall.

Did you know Stonewall?

LIZ BELL: I hadn't heard Stonewall.

But I went to the first march.

RJ, Marge, and I drove down in a little VW.

And we were coming back.

And we were so tired.

And we said, OK, let's drive.

We'll each drive for an hour.

And we'll each drive for fifteen minutes.

And I remember Marge-- and there was this dance studio,

a ballet studio.

And there were all these ballet guys hanging out the window.

I mean, it was unbelievable.

So it would have been before that.

I hadn't met RJ yet.

EVELYN BAILEY: OK.

LIZ BELL: I think the only people-- well,

there was Hope Schreiber.

But I haven't--

Marge, I left a call, I said, is it OK if I use your name?

Hope Schreiber was-- that would have been the year after,

though.

She was on the hall my senior year.

So that would have been '70, '71.

Marge was '69, '70.

Marge and Marshall were '69, '70.

Marlene Gordon, she was in the '70, '71.

EVELYN BAILEY: So, talk to me about Marshall Goldman.

LIZ BELL: Oh, man.

He made a movie of us, of Marge and I. I mean, that was--

somebody making a movie of you and your girlfriend?

And he was just honest, and inspirational, and bold.

And this was the guy--

I'm not sure if you were here then--

that used to tell--

his confession was, I told the gay jokes.

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

LIZ BELL: Yeah.

He had a vision.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Where's this movie now?

LIZ BELL: I don't know.

I would love to see it.

I remember I was in a tree.

I would love to see it.

Oh, oh, oh.

I would love to see that.

And the other thing I wanted to mention

was, has anybody talked to you about the-- we

were on television?

EVELYN BAILEY: Mm-hm.

LIZ BELL: Who was it?

EVELYN BAILEY: I think it was the morning show with you,

and Karen, and RJ.

I don't think Marshall was involved.

LIZ BELL: No, he disappeared.

EVELYN BAILEY: But you--

LIZ BELL: Was Johnny there?

Have you talked to John Grace yet?

EVELYN BAILEY: John who?

LIZ BELL: Grace.

EVELYN BAILEY: No.

LIZ BELL: Oh, John Grace and Nelson Baldo.

EVELYN BAILEY: Nelson--

LIZ BELL: Baldo.

EVELYN BAILEY: B-A-L?

LIZ BELL: D-O, I think.

We always knew them as Johnny and Nellie.

They used to own the bar on--

I never went to it.

It was after this.

This was long after.

But there was a bar--

what was it called?

EVELYN BAILEY: What street?

LIZ BELL: I'm thinking Park Ave. I could find that out.

But at this point in time, Nelson was working for--

he was a clothing distributor.

And this was after Karen--

Karen started the speaking engagement.

So I don't know what year that was.

And then she handed it over to me.

And Johnny-- John Grace--

and myself, and RJ, and Marge, we

were doing speaking engagements every day.

I mean, we were just galloping.

And that was part of the television thing.

EVELYN BAILEY: Do you remember what channel?

LIZ BELL: No.

Marge would.

She has a good memory.

Have you met-- talked to Marge yet?

EVELYN BAILEY: Not yet.

LIZ BELL: OK.

She has a good memory.

Ask her that.

She's good for dates.

EVELYN BAILEY: Where did Marshall Goldman come from?

LIZ BELL: The basement of Gilbert.

(laughter)

EVELYN BAILEY: Rochester?

Boston?

New York?

LIZ BELL: I don't know.

EVELYN BAILEY: He was Jewish, correct?

LIZ BELL: Yeah.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.

Yeah.

My guess would be New York.

But--

LIZ BELL: I don't know.

I don't know.

KEVIN INDOVINO: --that's my stereotype.

LIZ BELL: That would be in the U of R stuff.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

And so, talk about the speaking engagements.

What speaking engagement beside the television thing stands out

in your mind as--

LIZ BELL: Oh, man.

You'd go in.

And there were churches, synagogues, colleges.

The high school that Tim--

was the first time of a high school.

It was sort of like that took it to a new level.

Because you were talking to a different generation.

I remember sometimes you'd be talking.

And there'd be a heckler.

And they'd start throwing out the bad words.

And (snarling) Tea Partyish.

(snarling) And it finally got to the point that we welcomed it.

And we used to just sit back.

Because they were making the case for us.

We didn't have to say anymore that we were being persecuted,

that we were getting beat up, that we

were doing this, this, this.

This person would stand up, and just hate

would come erupting from their mouths.

And you'd just look around the audience.

And everybody got it.

And that was transitional.

Before that, they would stand up and we had

to work through our own stuff.

And the hecklers would stand up.

And at first it was scary.

And then it was silencing.

And then it was, one heckler would start another heckler.

But it finally got to the stage that we

were kind of hoping for a heckler in the audience.

Because we had said our thing so many times.

And for some people, it was--

the profundity of the high school one

was the honesty of the questions.

You know, they were before the stage of putting them

in polite language.

They were, what do you do in bed?

You know, just real issues that were from their hearts.

In the churches, you got some of the biblical stuff.

In the synagogues, you got some of the biblical stuff.

And we learned not to even argue that.

Because that never went anywhere.

It was more, we learned to recognize

that if the biblical stuff was an issue for somebody, then

that means that that somebody knew somebody.

And so we learned to focus on the person that they knew

and the pain that that person that they knew was in.

And then the biblical stuff kind of backed off.

And for some people, it was the first time

that they had ever said the words,

they had ever heard the words.

EVELYN BAILEY: And the words were?

LIZ BELL: Well, first the word was gay.

And lesbian didn't get spoken.

There were two women that came from Boston, Reggie and Vicki,

I think.

And this was when feminism was starting.

I was living on Cypress Street with Tim-o and Marge.

Marge had graduated, so it must have been, like, '73, '74.

And consciousness-raising groups.

And up until that time, the men and the women, we were all one.

And we all knew each other.

If you were out to a certain stage, you all knew each other.

And you all put up with each other's stuff.

And then these two women from Boston came.

And they raised our consciousness

that the word lesbian was not in gay liberation.

And so the women started meeting together.

And it was taken--

we started meeting together just to say the word lesbian.

But I never learned this until there was a meeting, movie

with--

Come in.

SUZY: Knock, knock.

EVELYN BAILEY: Hi.

SUZY: Hi, ma'am.

I'm Suzy (unintelligible) from the (unintelligible)

Brothers office.

EVELYN BAILEY: You want me to move my car.

SUZY: I've come down to tell you that-- you know,

we put the sign up for people not to park

in front of the dumpster.

And unfortunately, it's not seeming to be working.

So I've come down to let you know

that if your car isn't moved in ten minutes,

we're going to tow it.

OK?

EVELYN BAILEY: OK.

SUZY: And this is where it will be towed to.

And my card information is on the back.

EVELYN BAILEY: OK.

SUZY: And that is from the owners

of the parking lot, ma'am.

EVELYN BAILEY: Thank you.

LIZ BELL: Thank you.

Towed with warning.

EVELYN BAILEY: I'll be back.

LIZ BELL: Shall we wait?

EVELYN BAILEY: No.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.

So let's just kind of get into that, about--

LIZ BELL: The split with the men?

KEVIN INDOVINO: --this raising of this consciousness with

the lesbians--

LIZ BELL: Oh.

KEVIN INDOVINO: --movement.

And talk to me a little bit--

these two women from Boston, what were they telling you?

LIZ BELL: They brought--

in the beginning, there was fear.

There was hiding.

Then there were the words, and the Marshall.

And there was the people coming in from the community.

And there was pride.

And there was laughter.

And there was dancing.

And there was opening up.

And then the women from Boston came.

And suddenly there was anger.

And I guess, perhaps, they were tapping into our hurt.

An angry woman was an anomaly.

And they were angry that the word lesbian was not

spoken as much as the word gay.

So we started getting together.

And Holly Near and the women singers were starting.

So that whole thing of, we were lesbians, that word

was cooking.

I stayed friends with the ones that I was close with.

But I didn't find out until there

was some kind of a movie at ImageOut.

And I was asked to have a panel.

It was a historical movie.

And I was asked to get a panel together.

And there was a guy named John Adams that I called.

And I said, would you like to be on the panel?

Because he was part of that original group.

And he said, Liz Bell.

Oh my goodness.

I thought you hated me.

And I said, what?

And he gave me the perspective from the men's side,

of, I guess they saw the anger.

And they saw the women disappear from GLF.

And they were hurt.

And that's my mea culpa.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So, I'm trying to get a sense of this,

particularly these two women coming from Boston

and kind of stirring up some of the feminist anger there.

Do you think that was all part of--

because at the same time there was this women's rights

movement, women's liberation was very much

coming about at that time?

LIZ BELL: Yes.

And to my knowledge, they were the intersection

from Rochester.

And in a similar way that gays and lesbians,

when we started having our marches,

the transgender folks were excluded.

So, too, when the women started having our dances and whatever,

we excluded the men.

And the reasons were good, to find out yourself,

and if there's one man sitting in the room,

then the conversation is all changed, yadda, yadda, yadda.

And there's value to that.

But if that hadn't happened, or if it had happened differently,

there would not be a men's chorus that has lots of money

and a Rochester Women's Community

Chorus that has no money.

In those days, we all worked together.

We all pitched in.

We all gave what we got.

And now, it's just these two worlds

that are friendly and tolerating of each other.

But the disparity is just clear.

And, I don't know why the women don't support ImageOut.

I mean, I've gotten way off-topic.

You can stop me.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.

This is a whole other discussion.

LIZ BELL: Yeah.

Yeah.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Because we've been

asking those same questions.

LIZ BELL: But I think it has roots.

KEVIN INDOVINO: You can see it throughout the whole gay

and lesbian community.

LIZ BELL: Mm-hm.

KEVIN INDOVINO: If it's a male group,

there's a lot of support.

But the women's group, they struggle.

LIZ BELL: And that's why I'm hoping that--

for me, that's my personal goal for Shoulders to Stand On,

is the image that once upon a time--

we couldn't have done it alone.

The women couldn't have done it, and the men

couldn't have done it.

The men needed the women.

The women needed the men.

And we both needed the tranny.

And the community.

It was just--

KEVIN INDOVINO: So, there's a split.

Women kind of went off on their own.

Guys kind of went off on their own.

What were you finding within that women's group

that you weren't getting when you guys were all together?

LIZ BELL: I still call myself a fag in drag.

I missed the men.

I was-- anger.

I was learning about political correctness.

I don't have a whole lot of tolerance

for political correctness.

I was a dancer.

When I finished U of R, I got a job in Strong.

And it was the hurricane that wiped out Corning.

That was my two-week vacation for a year.

And I said, there's got to be more to life than this.

And I ended up studying dance.

And I went to Brockport and was dancing.

And I felt judged by the women's community for dancing.

Because dancing was politically incorrect.

Because it was too body.

I remember those early circles.

A Thanksgiving dinner where you burned the turkey

was a success.

Years later-- I'm a pastor.

I was ordained.

And I had a church in Pennsylvania.

And at the same time that I had a church--

and, you know, I didn't quite fit in there--

and I sang in Anacrusis, which was the first lesbian

choir, feminist choir.

I felt more acceptance from the church

than I did from some of the politically correct women

in the feminist choir.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So it wasn't a lesbian choir,

it was a feminist choir.

LIZ BELL: Lesbian feminist.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Lesbian feminist.

OK.

LIZ BELL: Lesbian feminists.

Lesbian feminists-- the feminists were very embracing.

The lesbian feminists, the politically correct lesbian

feminists to me were as the Tea Party is to Republicans.

You know, it was right and wrong.

I remember we had a picnic.

This was just before WAVAW--

Women Against Violence Against Women.

And we had a picnic at, I think it was Plunkett's house.

And they were all there.

I mean, we were all there.

We were buds.

And I decided to bring a politically incorrect meal.

It was a picnic.

So I got hot dogs and hot dog rolls and yellow mustard.

And I arranged them very artistically on the plate.

And this was tofu, and--

and I brought it.

And nobody got the joke.

I mean, they were all insulted.

And it was like, I just--

I missed the humor.

So what I got when we split was no humor.

The sense of humor was just--

it was cynical.

You got cynicism, but you didn't get good,

laughing humor in my book.

Things were either right or wrong.

I remember having a huge discussion with Sylvia

about Crisco, and the political incorrectness of Crisco.

I mean, it was like-- (Indovino laughs)

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.

LIZ BELL: I know.

I know.

I know.

And in the same way that I had never

fit in as a lesbian before GLF, all of a sudden,

I felt like I didn't fit in again.

Because I danced.

And then I became a pastor.

And then I liked to cook.

And so it became this same kind of rigidity

that we had broken away from.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Were there any positive aspects to the split?

Because--

LIZ BELL: The music.

I remember when we had Snake Sisters.

And I was the dessert maker.

I was with Carol Hayes then.

And Carol and I were dessert makers.

And it was a whole bunch of women

coming together and making the place,

and painting it, and making it happen.

And Holly Near came and ordered food,

and I bumped into her fanny.

There was real community, and made things happen.

And it was happy times.

But it was sort of like, I like hot food,

but I don't really like black pepper.

You know, it's like too much black pepper.

You have to have it kind of--

so it was happy times with a little bit too much pepper.

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.

LIZ BELL: For my taste.

EVELYN BAILEY: And that was Karen Galvin.

No.

Christine.

LIZ BELL: Christine Galvin.

Yeah.

Oh, well, see that also--

EVELYN BAILEY: Snake Sisters.

LIZ BELL: Christine-- there was a class thing.

And we weren't talking about class.

And Christine was of a different class in my memory.

You could run this by Karen-- or Nancy Rosen.

But the thing finally broke up.

Because Christine put the money out.

And everybody else put the work out.

And is work equal to putting the money out?

You know, who owns the business?

Those who put out the work?

So that became a political discussion.

EVELYN BAILEY: Listening to you, I

think I'm more like a gay man.

LIZ BELL: You're a fag in drag, too!

Exactly.

EVELYN BAILEY: Because what seemed to have happened was,

all of a sudden, the differences became the points

at which the connections broke.

LIZ BELL: Yes.

EVELYN BAILEY: So, if you were a lesbian and a feminist,

or a separatist and a lesbian, or a separatist and a feminist,

there were all of these categories that

set up the definition of acceptable and non-acceptable.

And then there was there was the issue of class.

I don't hear gay men talking about class.

I don't hear gay men talking about the legalities

of definition between what's a fag, what's a drag queen.

I mean, I don't hear that.

It was very, very prevalent in the women's community.

There were all of these distinctions.

LIZ BELL: Badges.