Audio Interview, Gary Sweet, July 28, 2012

EVELYN BAILEY: My own sense is, regardless

of when you were born and where you were born, if you were gay,

you always had to go through that process of saying

to yourself, I'm gay.

GARY SWEET: First and foremost, yes.

EVELYN BAILEY: And getting comfortable with that.

Because it is still not obviously the norm.

I mean, everywhere you look, what do you see?

You don't see gay men and women.

Yes, we have TV shows now

that have a gay theme, and may have gay actors and characters

in them.

But the world, for all practical purposes--

GARY SWEET: It's still heterosexual.

EVELYN BAILEY: Is heterosexual.

GARY SWEET: Well, yeah.

I mean it's--

EVELYN BAILEY: So that process still is wrought with fear,

anxiety, worry.

And there are still--

GARY SWEET: Well, they're young.

Like I said, back then, you thought

something was wrong with you.

Today it's still got to put you through the process

of accepting yourself.

But there are venues available to you

to talk to and understand.

There wasn't back then.

I mean, you were on your own.

EVELYN BAILEY: You were born here in Rochester.

GARY SWEET: Oh yes.

Uh-huh.

Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: Right?

Where did you grow up?

GARY SWEET: The east side, over what

was (unintelligible), but now it's (unintelligible),

over Portland Avenue, Clifford Avenue.

EVELYN BAILEY: OK.

GARY SWEET: Where the tailor shops.

My mother worked for the tailor shop, Fashion Park Clothing

over there.

And that's where I grew up.

But I was on the east side.

I joke about going over to Greece,

I need a passport to cross the river.

Because I don't know anything about the west side.

I'm an east side boy.

I've always been an east side boy.

EVELYN BAILEY: Um-hm.

GARY SWEET: Always.

So except for high school.

I guess Aquinas is on the west side, isn't it?

EVELYN BAILEY: You went to Aquinas?

GARY SWEET: Aquinas is on the west side, I guess.

Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: I taught there for nineteen years.

GARY SWEET: Did you?

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

GARY SWEET: That's my Alma mater.

(Bailey laughs)

GARY SWEET: That's my Alma mater.

EVELYN BAILEY: That's when--

GARY SWEET: I was out of there would you taught, though.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

I was there in 1978.

GARY SWEET: I graduated in '61.

Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: And at that time, there

were mostly priests and some religious women, I think.

A few sisters.

GARY SWEET: Well, we had two sisters when I went there.

That was all that was there.

Sister Hildegard, Sister Mercedes.

They were nasty women.

They still wore the black robes.

EVELYN BAILEY: Oh yeah.

GARY SWEET: The Sisters of Saint Joseph.

They still wore the black robes.

And they were-- that ruler.

I can still see that ruler.

Because I'm not in grammar school

anymore don't be slapping me with that ruler.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

GARY SWEET: And it was all boys then.

And it was, you know--

you still had to wear your shirt and tie and sport coat

to school.

And if they told you the weather was warm enough

to take of your sport coat, you took it off.

Otherwise, you kept it on.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

Yeah.

GARY SWEET: It was a wonderful experience for me.

It was a wonderful education.

EVELYN BAILEY: It still is.

GARY SWEET: I still think they should have the secular girls

and boys high schools.

I do.

This integrating them them--

to me, it was a bad idea.

I know they needed the attendance.

They needed students.

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

GARY SWEET: I understand all of that.

But the discipline and the structure

was more suitable for just all boys.

Where once the girls became, then they

have to start watching different things and that.

Same with the girls school.

They started letting boys in.

You know, the women had to change

the way they talk to the girls.

EVELYN BAILEY: Hi, Kevin.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Hey there.

GARY SWEET: Hello.

EVELYN BAILEY: You know Gary.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Oh yeah.

Of course.

GARY SWEET: How are you, honey?

KEVIN INDOVINO: You got new tables and everything out here.

GARY SWEET: They've been here for-- you don't come around.

The tables have been here for--

KEVIN INDOVINO: I know.

I don't go to--

GARY SWEET: Eighty years.

KEVIN INDOVINO: --any of the bars anymore, Gary.

GARY SWEET: We're all getting old.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, I wouldn't say that.

GARY SWEET: I will.

EVELYN BAILEY: Don't say that to him.

GARY SWEET: Oh, I will.

I'll say it.

I mean, I'll say it to myself.

I know I am.

GARY SWEET: We were just discussing about youth

and how things have changed with them coming out now.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Oh yeah.

GARY SWEET: Back when I was a boy,

there was no venues for us to talk to anyone.

Or no place to research.

We didn't have computers available to us.

And if we even did, we'd be afraid to go on them.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.

GARY SWEET: Someone's going to see it.

Someone's going to know about it.

Someone's going to find out, you know?

I mean, even when I was twenty-one,

I was still sneaking around the corners.

I got out of the Air Force and my first gay bar in Rochester

was Dick's 43, on Stone Street.

And even then, I was petrified.

Took me two months to even set foot in there.

I would drive around on the block, cruise around the block

before finally, this one guy came outside and says,

"Are you going to drive around the rest of your life,

or are going to come in?"

And that was Jerry Hummel, who ended up

being one of my best friends.

GARY SWEET: And I went in.

And back then, it was you couldn't dance with a boy.

I mean, she allowed it, because she had the police on her side.

But she would ring a bell when you

had to stop if the cops were coming by or something.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

GARY SWEET: She would ring a bell,

and everybody would just sit back down again.

It was an experience.

EVELYN BAILEY: Wow.

GARY SWEET: It was something, you know?

EVELYN BAILEY: Now, let me go back just a hair.

You were in the Air Force.

GARY SWEET: Um-hm.

Four years.

EVELYN BAILEY: Did you ever see or observe

anyone being harassed because of their--

GARY SWEET: No.

EVELYN BAILEY: Sexuality?

In the Air Force?

GARY SWEET: I was very closeted.

But I also had the fortune of being able--

I was stationed in Wichita, Kansas--

the asshole of the world.

I was fortunate enough to have an apartment off-base.

I worked off-base.

My captain and I were good friends.

So he allowed me to live off-base.

And I was very, very open and active in the Air Force

off-base.

I had a lover off-base.

But on-base?

No.

I never saw any harassment.

But I never saw anybody even attempting to be gay.

It was just not done.

I'm sure there were.

I wasn't the only one in (unintelligible)

Air Force Base that was gay.

I'm sure of that.

But nobody on-base-- I never saw anything.

Never saw harassment because everyone was afraid to even--

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

GARY SWEET: I was two different people.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

GARY SWEET: I was Gary outside of the base,

and I was an airman on the base.

And I knew where to draw the line, you know?

EVELYN BAILEY: Um-hm.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Let me ask you this, then.

Because you were out and about while you were

in the Air Force, off-base.

But when you came back to Rochester,

you then felt intimidated again.

I mean, you drove around Dick's 43 for two months.

GARY SWEET: Family.

Once again, I was afraid someone was going to see me.

In the Air Force, I didn't care.

I mean, there was nobody there.

Nobody knew me there.

I was a stranger.

I was a new pretty face in town.

But once I got back to Rochester,

I was petrified that I was going to see somebody that I knew.

And I did.

I mean, a couple of times I ran into the bathroom

and hide because one of my cousins

walked in there with his buddies.

You know?

I mean, just scoping it out back then.

There was just gay harassment.

It wasn't that he was gay.

He was coming out to check out the faggots, you know?

And I ran.

As soon as I saw him come near the door I ran.

I was shaking like a leaf.

And Martha Gruttadauria-- God rest her soul--

she said, "I'll let you know when he's gone."

And she knocked on the door and let me know when he was gone.

She protected her boys.

Martha protected her boys.

She was the safeguard for all of us.

Thank God, that woman.

She was a tough old broad.

But she looked out for her boys.

And that's exactly what she called them.

Her boys.

EVELYN BAILEY: And she had no problem

with guys being gay in her bar?

GARY SWEET: Oh, the money that woman made off of us.

When she retired the first time she should have stayed retired.

But she got greedy, and she then ended up

getting killed in her own bar.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

GARY SWEET: She got greedy, is what it was.

But no, but she watched out for us.

But she made a fortune.

She used to have a--

I tended bar for them for four weeks.

And I got fired.

She would have a bottle of vodka water.

It was her bottle.

She would drink screwdrivers.

You would have to use that bottle

and charge them for a screwdriver.

And it would be water and orange juice.

If I bought you a beer--

back then they were all long necks.

And If you didn't touch it, I had to recap that and put it

back in to resell it.

We had to wash our swizzle sticks.

But back then, they were with the thick plastic.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

Yeah.

GARY SWEET: They weren't like we have now.

We used to have to throw those in the water and wash them.

That's why they're millionaires.

But I got fired because he counted his beer bottles

and found out that I hadn't rung up four bottles of beer.

And he called me in.

This was her husband Dick.

That's why it was Dick's 43.

I showed up for work on Saturday.

He called me In his office.

And he says, "Four bottles of beers weren't rung up."

I says, "Guy was spending a lot of money."

I said, "I bought him a beer."

"Comes out of your pay, and get out of here."

That was it.

No, "comes out of your pay, now get out."

OK, bye.

Years later, I was saying goodbye to them.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

GARY SWEET: Yeah, I got fired from Dick's 43.

I tell everybody that.

It was funny.

EVELYN BAILEY: Wow.

What other bars were--

there was Dick's 43.

GARY SWEET: The Blue Chip.

EVELYN BAILEY: The Blue Chip and Dick's were the only two

bars back then.

That was it.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Where was The Blue Chip?

GARY SWEET: Oh, God.

Over by Allen Street.

In that area.

EVELYN BAILEY: OK.

GARY SWEET: But of course, the women had their--

the men weren't allowed in there.

EVELYN BAILEY: Riverview.

GARY SWEET: Riverview.

And there was another one too, wasn't there?

(unintelligible).

The 212.

EVELYN BAILEY: Oh, Anthony's?

GARY SWEET: No, no no.

The 212.

KEVIN INDOVINO: 212 out in Dutchtown, Hague?

GARY SWEET: Colvin Street?

EVELYN BAILEY: Colvin Street.

GARY SWEET: (unintelligible).

All I know is his name was (unintelligible).

It was straight during the day, and lesbians at night.

And the men knew lesbians were coming in.

And if they didn't want to leave, they didn't leave.

EVELYN BAILEY: And it was OK.

GARY SWEET: Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: I mean--

GARY SWEET: Yeah.

Because (unintelligible), once again,

was like Martha Gruttadauria.

He took care of the girls.

He wanted them in there, because he knew

they were going to spend money.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

GARY SWEET: But the Blue Chip was

basically it was a drag bar.

A dance drag bar.

And Martha got that closed down.

Every other weekend she had it closed down.

She'd send the cops over there, and they

would drag the drag queens out.

EVELYN BAILEY: Talk to us about the drag queens.

GARY SWEET: You had to wear at least one male attire

under your dress.

You could not be totally female.

You have to have either underpants on, or something.

You had to have--

you know.

EVELYN BAILEY: OK.

GARY SWEET: They had it hard.

The cops--

KEVIN INDOVINO: You have to wonder, like,

who came up with that law?

You know?

GARY SWEET: Yeah.

Otherwise, they were impersonating a female.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Right.

GARY SWEET: You know, which, I guess, was against the law.

I'm not too sure what the law was,

but I do know that you had to have one piece of female--

EVELYN BAILEY: We need to look that up.

GARY SWEET: Yep.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: What the law actually was.

GARY SWEET: The cops were nasty with them.

Talk about police brutality, they

used to throw them in the back of the paddy wagon

and rip their wigs off.

Embarrass them.

Call them names.

Harass them.

Put them in the jail with the men, instead of separately.

They were thrown in with all these other rough drunks

in there.

With their makeup crying all over their face,

and everything.

You know, they had it pretty rough back then.

They really did.

EVELYN BAILEY: Who do you remember?

GARY SWEET: I remember one that used to work for Martha.

Her name was Jackie.

I don't (unintelligible) her real name.

But she was almost like a Dolly Parton in Levis.

I mean she always had these huge blonde wigs on.

And she would just wear jeans and a shirt.

But she had the biggest chest in the world.

And she was the waitress over at Dick's 43.

And Buddy Yeakel did drag a lot.

He's the one that owned-- he was a hairdresser.

And he owned The Lost and Found.

EVELYN BAILEY: OK.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Diego?

GARY SWEET: Yeakel.

Y-E-A-K-E-L. And his lover at the time--

I think he's still here in town.

Works over at The Frog Pond.

He's the cook over there.

Can't think of his name right now.

It'll come to me, but I can't think of his name right now.

But they owned The Lost and Found.

But Buddy used to do Mae West in drag.

And there was Bobby Hummel--

Jerry's brother that did drag all the time.

Every week, I think, he would go out in drag.

Oh, there were a lot of them.

EVELYN BAILEY: Wayne Esposito?

GARY SWEET: Well, he's new.

Wayne is Liza.

I mean, that's new.

EVELYN BAILEY: That's new.

GARY SWEET: That's after I was here.

I'm going back in the sixties, yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: Bobby Hummel.

GARY SWEET: Yeah.

He used to be a waiter at the restaurant on the corner.

It was very, very, popular.

Right by the Eastman Theater.

KEVIN INDOVINO: The Red Hat?

GARY SWEET: No, it was small.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Oh.

Not The Red Carpet?

GARY SWEET: No, that was a gay bar.

KEVIN INDOVINO: A bar.

GARY SWEET: Um.

You had to have a suit and tie to get inside the place.

If you were anybody you went to that restaurant.

But Bobby was a waiter there.

Then he would go out in drag.

EVELYN BAILEY: Who was he in drag?

GARY SWEET: Just drag.

Back then, most of them did do personalities.

Like Liza does Liza.

You know, that type of stuff.

Back then, most of them would take somebody on.

Otherwise, they just wanted to get dressed up as a woman

and wear women's clothing.

What the hell is that?

EVELYN BAILEY: The Top Hat?

GARY SWEET: No.

It was red something.

It'll come to me, maybe later on.

I can't remember right now.

It was a very elite restaurant.

It was right on the corner.

Right?

It'll come to me.

EVELYN BAILEY: And not The Manhattan?

KEVIN INDOVINO: Not the East Chop House?

GARY SWEET: Oh, no.

Not The Manhattan.

No.

No.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Because that wasn't really upscale.

GARY SWEET: Yeah, that was big too.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.

GARY SWEET: No, The Manhattan on the side street by mid-town

there.

This was right where that main street--

It'll come to me.

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.

GARY SWEET: All right.

Other than that, um--

EVELYN BAILEY: So.

GARY SWEET: Then--

EVELYN BAILEY: In that era--

GARY SWEET: That was the late sixties.

EVELYN BAILEY: Late sixties.

There were would you say, a lot of female impersonators?

Or a lot of guys doing drag?

GARY SWEET: No.

EVELYN BAILEY: And was there one place that they would--

GARY SWEET: The Blue Chip.

And that's why Martha had it raided every other week.

Because everybody would go over there to dance.

They'd have a drag show.

And everybody would go there, then she'd be dead.

So she'd call the cops, and then they'd raid it.

I think it was her nephew was a lieutenant on the police force.

And so she would call him, and he

would get the boys and the paddy wagon,

and go raid The Blue Chip.

EVELYN BAILEY: That's helpful, isn't it?

(laughter)

GARY SWEET: He was a captain or a lieutenant or something.

And he would also protect her very much.

But the paddy wagons were fun back then.

They really were.

They'd just pull right up and open the back doors,

and throw them inside there.

I just felt sorry for these guys.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

GARY SWEET: They would treat them as

if they were gum on their shoe.

It was terrible.

It was awful.

EVELYN BAILEY: Um-hm.

And then 1969 came along, and Stonewall happened in the city.

GARY SWEET: Nothing changed much in Rochester.

It did in New York.

It took a while for it to come around in Rochester.

We were still petrified because we're too small.

We didn't have the amount of people.

New York-- if you wanted to be gay then,

you went to San Francisco or New York City.

But in Rochester, I mean, we were cheering, and applauding,

and were happy for all of this hoopla.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

GARY SWEET: But it didn't affect us as far

as making us stronger.

Not for a long time, I would say.

EVELYN BAILEY: Hm.

GARY SWEET: The mid-seventies.

EVELYN BAILEY: Um-hm.

GARY SWEET: It was still very closeted here.

Too many corporations.

And back then, it's not like today.

You don't have Lambda and all of those other core groups,

you know.

If you worked for Xerox, Kodak, Bausch and Lomb,

which basically, everybody did.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

GARY SWEET: You didn't say a word about being gay.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

GARY SWEET: That was not heard of back then.

You'd lose your job for sure.

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

GARY SWEET: But, I mean, unless--

I think even if you were union at Xerox.

Kodak didn't have a union.

It still doesn't.

Well, there's no Kodak, but.

I still think you would have lost your job for being

a homosexual back then.

EVELYN BAILEY: Mm.

GARY SWEET: I can't say, but I know you would have at Kodak

because I saw a few of them get fired at Kodak.

Because I worked there for a short time.

EVELYN BAILEY: Um-hm.

GARY SWEET: And that was another thing that was not--

I was closeted at Kodak, you know?

I was closeted most of my places except for the gay bars.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

GARY SWEET: That's one of the reasons why I got married.

It was expected of me.

Italian Catholic boy, you got married.

And my mother and father knew I was gay when I got married.

And my father says, "You won't stop this?"

But I finally almost had a nervous breakdown,

and they realized that I just--

they supported me 100 percent, you know?

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

GARY SWEET: Then they turned the corner.

My father became my best friend.

He used to come in here and protect me inside here when

I first bought this bar.

EVELYN BAILEY: So, when did you open the Avenue Pub?

I mean, what moved you into the bar scene?

GARY SWEET: I had tended bar in the Air Force.

I had always been either a cook or a bartender.

Started out when I was a eighteen in the Air Force.

And came home, and I'd say 80 percent of time

I had a part time job tending bar somewhere.

Usually straight bars.

EVELYN BAILEY: Um-hm.

GARY SWEET: And I was a mail man.

And my mail route happened to be Cobb's Hill.

And I used to go finish early in the afternoon,

go in to Cobb's Hill Grill, which is Jeremiah's.

And have a few drinks and before I went home

to my wife and all this.

I got to know everybody in there.

And the owner, Sam Giordano, offered me a job tending bar.

Nights, which I took, because I didn't have any money.

I had three kids.

I worked for the post office.

So I took the job tending bar, nights for him.

And from there, he offered me a manager's job,

and running four of the Carlisi Giordano bars in Rochester.

And I quit the post office, which probably

was a mistake at that time.

But I was excited about his new venture.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

GARY SWEET: My wife was not happy

because I lost my benefits.

EVELYN BAILEY: Sure.

GARY SWEET: But I started tending bar for him,

managing the place.

Then I was general manager for four of their bars.

They had the Encore, The Pussycat, Ben's Cafe Society,

and The Music Shop on Saint Paul Street.

And then they had to sell this place here.

It was called Neil's Cocktail Lounge.

He had so many violations that he's going to lose the place.

And they didn't want to lose it.

So I was their front man.

You know, we'll give you so much money,

put the license in your name.

You own half of it, we own half.

EVELYN BAILEY: Um-hm.

GARY SWEET: OK, why not?

I want to own my own business.

So, once again, made my wife unhappy.

Took it over.

And it was a very, very, very rough bar.

It was bikers, Indians.

They put me in the hospital.

Like I told you, twice.

My father used to have to come and protect me.

And approximately eight to nine months

after I did this for them, and opened it up,

they wanted to open up a bar in Perinton.

He said, "You have to buy us out."

I said, "Buy you out with what?

I don't have any money."

He said, "You have to buy us out, now.

We need the money."

And you didn't mess with the Carlisi Giordanos.

EVELYN BAILEY: I was going to ask you about the Giordanos.

GARY SWEET: Yeah.

You didn't mess with them.

EVELYN BAILEY: Were they Mafia?

GARY SWEET: Oh yeah.

They were involved in that car bombing at Empire Boulevard.

They were at the plaza there.

The Blue Gardenia.

They were involved in that.

I used to hide stolen goods up in my attic for them.

Which made my wife very nervous.

Fur coats and stuff like that.

EVELYN BAILEY: And were they connected to the Mafia

outside of Rochester?

GARY SWEET: They're connected all over.

I mean, indirectly, not so much directly.

But they're all connected.

There's always one head of the family.

Sam Carlisi was the head here in Rochester.

And his brother Joe was his understudy, I guess,

is what you call it.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

GARY SWEET: And so, I said I didn't have the money.

They said, well, you have to come up with it somehow.

So my father loaned me some, and Lindy Nardone,

who owned A1 Amusement, who had all the machines in Rochester,

he said, "Whatever you need, you've got it.

Get rid of them.

You don't need them.

You pay me back money for the machines."

Lindy and I became very, very good friends

until he finally sold A1 Amusement.

No questions asked.

You know, don't sign any papers.

Just here's the money, give it to them.

So I bought them out.

And it was officially all mine.

KEVIN INDOVINO: What year was this?

GARY SWEET: Well, it would be the end of '75.

I opened in June of '75.

I'm going to say December of '75?

January of '76?

Technically the license was in my name.

You know, and all of that.

They were not--

EVELYN BAILEY: What was the name?

GARY SWEET: The Avenue Pub.

They were not supposed to--

I mean, no one knew that I had this dealing with them.

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

GARY SWEET: You know.

If the liquor board found out that I had a dealing with them,

you know.

So I was glad to be rid of them.

And then six years later, they came back to me

and wanted to buy back in to the Avenue Pub

because I was a success.

And I said, "No."

And I will tell you, I was shaking in my pants

when I said no to them.

I was shaking, and they said, "Well,

we're going to put you out of business."

And that's when they turned the Pussycat into a gay bar.

Which lasted about six months.

EVELYN BAILEY: That would have been the early eighties.

GARY SWEET: Yeah.

About, probably, '81, '82?

Yeah.

Yeah.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Do you remember the name of that bar?

GARY SWEET: The Pussycat.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.

They kept the same name as a gay bar?

GARY SWEET: Yeah.

Well it didn't last that long.

They just made it known that they

were going to be a gay bar.

That drag shows were welcome, because it was a strip bar.

So they had a huge stage.

The place was enormous.

It was big.

So they thought that they were get all the drag queens and all

the guys to come in there and dance and everything.

And like I said, probably about not even six months.

The way they were treated by the by the Italians,

or whatever you want to say.

They just stopped going there.

EVELYN BAILEY: Um-hm.

GARY SWEET: And once again, they didn't put me out of business.

Martha was going to put me out of business.

You know, when she opened over on Alexander Street.

She came right in here one night and said,

"I'll get my boys back."

I said, "Martha, do what you gotta to do, honey."

I said, you know.

I said, "There's enough for all of us.

Do what you gotta do."

EVELYN BAILEY: What was the bar on Alexander that she opened?

GARY SWEET: That was a Dick's.

They were all Dick's.

After she closed the one on on Stone Street,

she opened on State Street.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Right, but it was Alexander and South, right?

GARY SWEET: Yeah, it was on the corner of Alexander.

But it was still called Dick's.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.

GARY SWEET: But after Stone Street,

she opened up on State Street.

EVELYN BAILEY: Um-hm.

GARY SWEET: Where Mobil is.

She had that.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

GARY SWEET: And she closed that and retired.

And she came in here, and opened up another one.

You know?

"My boys will come back.

My boys--"

And I said, "Martha, they don't know who you are, these kids.

You've been gone a long time.

They don't know Martha."

"They'll be back.

I'll get my boys back."

Well, she got some of the old crowd back, yeah.

But nothing from what she thought.

And then she ended up getting killed by one of her customers.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.

GARY SWEET: And that was the saddest thing I'd--

KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, it's funny that you say that,

because I remember Dick's on the corner of South and Alexander.

GARY SWEET: Yeah.

KEVIN INDOVINO: As a young man saying.

And the rumor was, oh, that's where all the old farts go.

GARY SWEET: Yeah.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So you didn't go there.

GARY SWEET: All the old queens.

That's where they went.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

GARY SWEET: The ones that remembered Martha,

that's where they would go.

They would talk about the good times, yeah?

EVELYN BAILEY: Um-hm.

GARY SWEET: You know.

EVELYN BAILEY: But at that time, when

Martha reopened on Alexander, and The Pussycat later on.

GARY SWEET: Well, The Pussycat was before Martha.

Martha opened up on Alexander and South in the late eighties.

EVELYN BAILEY: OK.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.

GARY SWEET: Yeah.

Mid-'85, '86.

EVELYN BAILEY: How many gay bars were there?

GARY SWEET: Oh, there were a lot of us.

EVELYN BAILEY: By then.

GARY SWEET: Yes.

Oh, God.

When I opened up here, they told me

that I would never last because I was out the suburbs.

Because all the gay bars were downtown.

(laughter)

Well, (unintelligible) said, "Gary,

you're going to make it on Monroe Avenue.

You're too far out of the loop."

Well, I said, "I'm going to give it a shot."

Then the next thing I know, I got Rosie's.

I got Friar's.

And they're pushing me in the suburbs.

You know?

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

GARY SWEET: They all came to Monroe Avenue.

Oh, let me see.

We had Jim's.

The Rathskeller.

EVELYN BAILEY: The Red Fez.

GARY SWEET: The Red Carpet.

EVELYN BAILEY: The Red Carpet.

GARY SWEET: Friar's.

Rosie's.

The Forum.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Tara's.

GARY SWEET: Tara's.

KEVIN INDOVINO: We're talking mid-eighties.

There's Liberty.

GARY SWEET: Yeah.

Liberty.

EVELYN BAILEY: Liberty.

Or Jim's.

The LA Saloon.

KEVIN INDOVINO: I never went there.

GARY SWEET: Out on Lake Avenue.

EVELYN BAILEY: Bullwinkle's?

GARY SWEET: Well, that was always-

that had been around for one thousand years.

But that was never a gay bar.

They'd go there and sing on weekends.

But I could never really consider that a gay bar.

EVELYN BAILEY: OK.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Anthony's?

GARY SWEET: Anthony's.

KEVIN INDOVINO: 212.

GARY SWEET: Well, Anthony's came in the nineties.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Was that the nineties?

GARY SWEET: Yeah.

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.

GARY SWEET: Roy Lawrence's place over on (unintelligible)

Street.

KEVIN INDOVINO: That was Backstreets, wasn't it?

EVELYN BAILEY: Backstreets?

KEVIN INDOVINO: There was a place called Backstreets.

It was late eighties.

GARY SWEET: That wasn't Backstreets, Roy's place.

I'm trying to think.

It had a western--

OK Corral.

Alright.

The OK Corral.

EVELYN BAILEY: And then did he sell that?

GARY SWEET: No.

Well, he lost it.

He didn't sell it.

He lost it.

EVELYN BAILEY: And then he came here

and was your chef for a while.

GARY SWEET: Yes, he cooked here.

And he used to do drag shows in the barn back there.

We would have drag shows about once a month in that barn.

They opened up the doors.

It had a huge stage and catwalk.

EVELYN BAILEY: Huh.

Is that where the--

GARY SWEET: Miss (unintelligible).

EVELYN BAILEY: The Miss Gay Rochester Pageant?

GARY SWEET: Yeah.

They had it there are a couple of times.

You know, because the stage has enormous.

I mean, that barn is huge in there.

EVELYN BAILEY: Um-hm.

GARY SWEET: Oh, I've done it and tried it all.

I used to have drag shows inside the bar here.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

GARY SWEET: The drag queens used to actually dance on the bar.

Because I didn't have room for a stage, and stuff like that.

I've had live entertainment.

I mean, I've had just about everything

you could think of here.

EVELYN BAILEY: So, we're now into the--

GARY SWEET: Nineties?

EVELYN BAILEY: Eighties.

GARY SWEET: Oh.

It was still in the eighties?

OK.

EVELYN BAILEY: It was still in the eighties.

GARY SWEET: OK.

EVELYN BAILEY: And HPA began in 1986.

GARY SWEET: Um-hm.

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.

Actually, I don't want to go there just yet.

GARY SWEET: OK.