Audio Interview, Jamie and Sally Whitbeck, September 17, 2012
- EVELYN BAILEY: I'm here with Jamie Whitbeck and Sally
- Whitbeck and the date is September 17th, 2012.
- And I'm in their lovely home at 1077 E. Ave.
- And we've been talking for a while about our past
- and our own histories, and I asked Jamie and Sally
- to consider responding to the question,
- why have they become so involved in the LGBT community
- here in Rochester?
- What catapulted them into activity, into commitment,
- into sharing of themselves and their time?
- So I'm not going to decide who answers.
- I'll let them decide who answers.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: OK, this is Jamie.
- I think-- I'm not sure where the initial spark came from,
- but it was involved--
- it involved with a change in where we lived.
- We had moved to a new house with our two daughters,
- and we had been in our house for a few months.
- And this event happened in early summer,
- when one Sunday morning--
- maybe it was Sunday afternoon--
- two men, whom we had made acquaintance earlier--
- SALLY WHITBECK: At a party.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: --because they were
- living in the same neighborhood that we had just--
- they had just moved into.
- And now we, also, two, three months later, moved into it.
- They appeared at our door in the afternoon on a Sunday,
- a nice warm day.
- And they knocked on the door and we went to the door,
- and both of our daughters got to the door before I did.
- But there they were, the two fellas standing there,
- and one of them had in his hand a bottle of champagne.
- It was cold.
- You could see the sweat on the bottle.
- And the other had four glasses.
- And they said, we are coming to welcome us to the neighborhood.
- SALLY WHITBECK: It was a little less than months
- because we moved in in June.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Oh, OK.
- Well.
- SALLY WHITBECK: Anyway.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Well, those two men
- who lived in the same neighborhood
- that we did, and we're not going to tell you
- their names because--
- SALLY WHITBECK: No.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: We don't need that.
- Those two men were--
- well, we learned a lot from them.
- They-- they had a lovely dog, which both of our daughters
- fell in love with, and they were welcoming.
- They invited us to come to their house many times.
- And as we knew them better, the more
- we knew about them and their business--
- they were both professionals--
- and we realized that they were in the closet.
- Now, we didn't know what in the closet was, I don't think,
- but we knew that their being a couple
- was not acceptable in most situations in this area.
- SALLY WHITBECK: And where they worked.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Well, yeah, Sally.
- SALLY WHITBECK: And where they worked.
- One worked for the county and he definitely was closeted.
- The other was a professional at Kodak,
- and we don't really know if he was.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: So as we enjoyed their company
- and they came to see us, and the kids
- kept playing with the dogs--
- SALLY WHITBECK: Right.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: --they began to give us
- hints about the relationship with their families
- and the relationship with other gay people.
- We didn't know they were gay at that time.
- And we realized that they were unable to speak out
- about their concerns, and their--
- their sense of not being accepted.
- It made us think, well, if they can't speak out,
- somebody has to.
- And we began trying to express, from our position,
- because we were a straight couple with children,
- that we had to get some information out.
- We had to get some--
- how can people be nicer, be more welcoming than it is now?
- SALLY WHITBECK: OK, let me say something.
- Our kids were three--
- were five and seven when we moved in.
- And-- what was I going to say?
- This couple became good friends with our family.
- It was a very tight-knit community neighborhood,
- spread out geographically.
- But having potlucks, and we went to their house for dinner,
- not potlucks, and they came to ours.
- And the kids were real friendly with them.
- And it was just a very, very pleasant relationship.
- And at some point we must have heard on the radio
- or seen in the paper that--
- all we can figure is that the assembly
- must have been voting on SONDA.
- And we moved in this house in June of 1970.
- And so at some point along the way--
- and this was, I'm sure, it seems like it was several years
- after we moved in--
- we left there in '84.
- And it was-- so it was before that.
- We remember writing our state--
- probably assembly person-- we remember
- writing some political figure and stating our position
- that we were, as Jamie said, a straight couple with children,
- and we were advocating for the passage of SONDA.
- We had both-- we had worked in, somewhat,
- in civil rights for blacks.
- So this was a civil rights question,
- although I've come to realize that it
- was more than a civil rights question because we had
- these friends, who if they couldn't be out, then
- we figured that most of the gay community couldn't be out.
- And as Jamie says, it's up to somebody else to advocate.
- Somebody-- I mean, it wasn't going to do us any harm at all.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Mm-hm.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: And we wrote letters
- to the Democrat and Chronicle.
- We began to hear, or get involved in,
- the Gay Alliance, its component that was--
- SALLY WHITBECK: Bill--
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Bill, Bill--
- SALLY WHITBECK: Pritchards, political caucus.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Yeah, political caucus.
- And that intrigued us, and we met some people there.
- And gradually, we got more familiar with the Gay Alliance
- Organization.
- It was just gradual, getting to know
- and getting to understand the issues.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Let me stop you for a minute,
- and I want to go back.
- Are you both from the Rochester area?
- Were you born and raised in Rochester?
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Mm-hm.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And you earlier said, Jamie,
- that when you met these two gentlemen, the word gay,
- the word out, the word closet, didn't--
- JAMIE WHITBECK: We didn't know that.
- We didn't know those words.
- SALLY WHITBECK: I don't know if we knew gay,
- but we certainly didn't know being out
- and being in the closet.
- I don't think we knew any of that.
- And we may not even have been familiar with gay,
- but I think we must have been familiar
- with the word gay, at least.
- If I was, you were.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: It's a long time.
- SALLY WHITBECK: Yeah, yeah.
- Sure is, yeah, so.
- EVELYN BAILEY: What in your--
- what in your upbringing would you
- identify as being non-prejudicial contribution?
- I mean, one doesn't assume that if you
- meet someone who is different, you're
- going to respond in a negative way.
- But in 1970, Stonewall had just happened in '69.
- The Gay Liberation Front began at the University of Rochester.
- In '73, the Alliance came into existence.
- By 1977, CETA funding was coming before city council.
- And then there was the era of AIDS in the '80s, and Jackie
- Nudd confronting the Chamber of Commerce
- for not letting us use the chamber to have
- an annual meeting and dance.
- And all of the--
- but, and maybe it's a question you can't answer.
- Your family of origin must have been very open,
- or must have been very--
- SALLY WHITBECK: I'll go first.
- EVELYN BAILEY: --nonjudgmental.
- SALLY WHITBECK: You go first.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: I am the black sheep of my family.
- I have two brothers.
- They are very nice and they're still, fortunately, alive
- and doing fine.
- But I was always on a different track.
- I'll give you an example.
- When I was in high school, I got involved in the theater
- that the school provided periodically.
- Students acted and made plays.
- And I just latched on to that.
- I love the theater, and I still do.
- And when I was--
- and I knew very quickly that I was not an actor,
- but I could do back stage work, which I enjoyed.
- I love to do things with my hands.
- And at one time, there was a younger guy
- who was working with me who was, I have to say,
- almost effeminate, delicate.
- I liked working with him, and he was a good worker.
- But I began to hear other guys making cracks
- about my being so close to this kid that was so namby-pamby,
- I don't know what you'd call it, but very, very effeminate.
- Well, that happened and so I kind of backed away.
- And it happened again when I was in college.
- Same kind of situation.
- Well, not quite the same kind, but it was--
- I felt uncomfortable being too close to this other guy.
- I liked what he was doing, but his interest in the theater
- were--
- they fitted with my ability to make the thing happen.
- He was doing the head part, I was doing the hand part.
- At any rate, but he had one of the very few single dorm rooms.
- At this point, some time in my life,
- I realized that they didn't want anybody else--
- nobody else wanted to be in the same bedroom with him.
- I should know.
- So I did have these experiences and I really
- didn't know what to do with them.
- It bothered me a little, but it didn't bother
- me enough to get a hold of it.
- And maybe that's part of what let
- me get into a different kind of association
- with different goals.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Hm.
- SALLY WHITBECK: I was born in Brighton, grew up in Brighton
- right through high school.
- I didn't realize that people were prejudiced.
- My parents never were outwardly prejudicial.
- And later on, when I talked to my dad--
- when he took over his father's business when his father was
- dying, and my dad was twenty-two or so--
- he said that there were times when the Jewish workers were
- given less work and therefore went home after half a day,
- and that when he took charge, he changed that.
- And he just announced to everybody
- that everybody was getting an even amount of work.
- Now, I didn't hear that as a child.
- I only heard that ten years ago, six years ago.
- Anyway, but I grew up in Brighton.
- So I always figured in Brighton there was about--
- in school, about a third of us were Protestant.
- A third, Roman Catholic.
- And our Lady of Lords had a school there for K through 6th,
- and McQuaid opened at some point there.
- And a third were Jewish.
- And I never felt any prejudice.
- And then we also--
- also, I went to an Episcopal church, and our minister--
- minister's wife knew Mrs. Sibley, I think,
- who worked with-- who was working
- with the black community for recognition.
- And one of the things that we did one afternoon a week
- for a bit was to go to a daycare center,
- I think on Baden Street or Ormand, associated with St.
- Julian Simkins Church--
- let's see, St. Simon.
- And we went to St. Simon's Church for a service.
- And I remember the incense.
- It was really, really fantastic.
- So I'd had that experience.
- And as I said, my parents never spoke against anybody.
- I later found out--
- one of my grandmothers was Irish--
- and as I grew up and we were raising our kids,
- some of that prejudice surfaced in her
- that I had not been aware of.
- She had not ever voiced it when I was growing up, so.
- And your family, how did they feel about blacks?
- I mean, mine didn't ever say anything one way or the other.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Yeah.
- My grandmother, with whom our family lived for a while
- at the terminal end of my grandmother's life,
- we moved into the house, which she had--
- she and her husband had--
- well, it was a big, old mansion.
- And she was rattling around in there alone
- and she needed help.
- And some of the help was professional-- nursing--
- and then they had a cook.
- Those kinds of things showed me some prejudice.
- There was, at one point, a partner
- who was-- not a partner, but an employee-- who
- came from Europe.
- Very heavy accent, terrific guy.
- That was fine.
- But another time, there was a black person in the same role.
- And that was not a happy situation,
- except for one point when he took my younger brother and I
- to the ballgame, and he knew all the ballplayers.
- And at the Red Wings, you know?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: But he was--
- he was aside.
- He was different.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Mm-hm.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: You know, I don't think--
- I don't remember my response to that.
- He seemed like a nice guy, what should I worry about?
- But my parents and my grandparents-- my grandmother,
- anyway--
- had different attitudes and different perspectives.
- I did a lot of reading, and I don't know how it worked out,
- but I began to understand that there
- were some different aspects.
- I didn't have to have all of the same things that my other--
- the rest of my family did.
- And at that point, my younger brother--
- well, anyway, so.
- EVELYN BAILEY: But at some--
- well, because of your experiences
- and because of your identifying yourself
- as the black sheep of your family, you were not put off.
- You were not afraid.
- You were not cautious.
- You were not-- any of that in meeting different people,
- whether they be gay, whether they
- be Hindu, whether they be Arabs, whether they be pink, purple,
- or white.
- And so it seems that this couple that you
- got to know very well in Rochester, when
- your children were young and so forth,
- began to open the door to the both of you
- and your family to understanding another culture,
- another way of life that was different, and yet in some ways
- the same as yours.
- SALLY WHITBECK: Right.
- But we never did discuss gay, straight, anything
- like that with them.
- And yet we were very close in some ways.
- But we saw how they lived.
- We knew they shared a bedroom, bed.
- But it was never disgust.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And that was the time.
- Most things having to deal with sexuality
- were not discussed, whether it was gay or straight.
- SALLY WHITBECK: Right.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Somehow you were expected
- to know this by osmosis or from the air or something.
- SALLY WHITBECK: The water.
- EVELYN BAILEY: You know, the water.
- When you-- who was the person, though,
- who got you involved with the Gay Alliance?
- Was it Bill?
- JAMIE WHITBECK: I can't really remember.
- It could have been Bill Pritchard,
- and I don't know how I would have found him.
- SALLY WHITBECK: We might have read something
- in city newspaper, which was City East.
- Although we didn't--
- JAMIE WHITBECK: There was a theater here
- There was a theater in Rochester at Calvary St. Andrews Church.
- Do you know where that is?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: OK.
- And the church was struggling, and they had welcomed a theater
- company to come in and use one corner of their sanctuary
- as a small stage.
- And I told you, I liked the theater.
- And this was after we were out there in Fairport,
- where these other guys work.
- There was a newspaper column that said it's going to have--
- here's the play it's going to be.
- And I talked to Sally about it, gee, this would be kind of fun.
- Well, Sally didn't think it was kind of fun.
- SALLY WHITBECK: Well--
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Well, I don't want
- to make a big deal out of it.
- SALLY WHITBECK: Yeah, I want to say something.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: But another one came along,
- and one way or another--
- SALLY WHITBECK: It said, all are welcome.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Oh, that's right.
- That's right.
- SALLY WHITBECK: And this is a big difference
- between Jamie and me.
- I think I was brought up to be a good girl.
- Don't stir the kettle.
- And Jamie, when his mother said, jump, he didn't say, how high?
- He said, forget it.
- So we have two very different personalities.
- And so Jamie's willing to jump into things that I'm not.
- And my concern, when he saw the announcement
- about the first play, was that we
- would be barging into the gay community
- and that they might not like that.
- So we didn't go.
- But then, as Jamie said, the second time,
- it said very clearly in the ad in City East, all are welcome.
- So we went, and we walked in the door to buy our tickets,
- and we were so welcomed by the person who
- was in charge, who got this group, Conundrum Players,
- together.
- And later, too soon for Rochester,
- went to New York City.
- But they did at least those two plays,
- and they may have done more.
- There was one, The Watched Pot--
- two lesbian couples-- no, one lesbian couple
- played by two women in their youth, and then two women
- as they were aging.
- And we still remember that play.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Wow.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Yeah.
- SALLY WHITBECK: So we were welcomed.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Do you remember-- what was the name of the group?
- SALLY WHITBECK: The Conundrum Players.
- But I don't remember the name of the guy who was the director
- and founder, probably.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: The archives of that church would probably
- have a record.
- SALLY WHITBECK: Well, I would think also
- the Empty Closet would.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Probably.
- SALLY WHITBECK: Yeah.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Yeah, that's true.
- SALLY WHITBECK: Because this is still
- before we moved, but probably very close.
- Maybe in the early '80s.
- As I said, we moved in '84, so.
- EVELYN BAILEY: So the Alliance wasn't a theater, though.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: That's right.
- SALLY WHITBECK: No.
- EVELYN BAILEY: So somehow that group brought you into contact,
- perhaps, with people who were involved with the Alliance or--
- SALLY WHITBECK: Or maybe it was the political caucus,
- because we were--
- well, I think we both were brought up that you voted.
- I mean, you hear about people who don't vote these days.
- We just both-- that was something a good citizen did,
- and so we were politically--
- we were politically active, because we even
- went door to door for certain people, like George McGovern.
- I went door to door with the teenager across the street.
- And Jamie was active.
- One of our other neighbors was a Democrat
- trying to break into the Republican Perinton town board.
- Jamie managed his campaign.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Hm.
- SALLY WHITBECK: So we were somewhat politically active
- on the fringes, let's say.
- So it easily could have been the political caucus,
- because we remember going to Ellison Park to a picnic
- that I think--
- I think we were invited to, but maybe we
- just went, where one of the women who
- was running for Judge.
- And I can't remember, but I think she's still active.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Ellen Yacknin?
- SALLY WHITBECK: No.
- No, this is way before Ellen.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: We did meet Ellen,
- but that was a long time.
- SALLY WHITBECK: Yeah, anyway, I don't know.
- So we were in the political--
- I mean, we were not, probably, members
- of the political caucus, if they had members.
- And then that morphed into ESPA--
- well, political caucus.
- The GAGV found that they couldn't support
- a political action committee.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- SALLY WHITBECK: So I think the political caucus sort of--
- and I could be wrong about this--
- but they sort of stopped their political action,
- at least as a branch of the GAGV at about the same time as ESPA
- began, the Empire State Pride Agenda.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Mm-hm.
- SALLY WHITBECK: So then there was an ESPA party at--
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Home.
- SALLY WHITBECK: --at home, which was a small restaurant or bar.
- On-- it starts with C.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Here in Rochester?
- SALLY WHITBECK: Yeah, not Court Street, not-- but very near.
- Chestnut.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Chestnut Street.
- SALLY WHITBECK: And it was later demolished.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Before they realigned it.
- SALLY WHITBECK: Yeah, right.
- It was demolished in the--
- and Jamie knew that there was this ESPA event.
- And we knew-- oh, who am I trying to think of?
- Well, we somehow-- well, we knew from the political caucus,
- we knew a few of the people.
- And we walked into this, and I remember one guy at the door--
- whose name escapes me right now, and yet I know it--
- and he sort of went--
- he was really surprised, I think, that we were there.
- And we walked in, and we're not real good in social situations.
- And we walked up some stairs and we were standing there sort
- of thinking, what do we do?
- People were standing around with drinks and some food maybe.
- And Susan (unintelligible) came over to us.
- And she took us under her wing and got us something to drink
- and made us feel welcome.
- And so after that--
- JAMIE WHITBECK: And Susan (unintelligible)
- and her partners and associates.
- SALLY WHITBECK: And friends, yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- SALLY WHITBECK: And so we just went to more ESPA events.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Now, do you recall what year that was?
- Because this is the 20th anniversary of ImageOut.
- ImageOut began in 1982, and originally--
- SALLY WHITBECK: No, '93.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: The first film festival was in '93.
- EVELYN BAILEY: '93.
- That's thirty years ago.
- SALLY WHITBECK: No, wait.
- How can it be twenty years?
- '93, yes.
- It's twenty years.
- Right.
- Right.
- Yes, right.
- 1993 is when ImageOut began.
- EVELYN BAILEY: You do better man than I do, and I'm a teacher.
- SALLY WHITBECK: I loved math.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Well, blood--
- ImageOut flows through our veins.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- SALLY WHITBECK: Well, also we joined the Unitarian Church
- in January of 1978.
- I mean, we didn't become members right away,
- but we started going in January of '78.
- And so the church--
- I think it was--
- I can't remember when it started working on becoming
- a welcoming congregation.
- And then Jamie can speak to how he got involved in ImageOut
- through the work that we did at church
- as the welcoming congregation.
- And there were--
- I can't remember if there were any gay people there
- at the church at that time, but I remember at least one.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Yes, one guy that I remember, the tall guy.
- SALLY WHITBECK: OK, and there was
- one lesbian couple at least, Judy Lawrence and Pat Collins.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Right.
- SALLY WHITBECK: And they had been in that church
- before we joined.
- So we were working on that aspect.
- And then one of the--
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Yeah, we decided--
- now, we're switching to putting our venue at the Unitarian
- Church, and we had this idea of doing
- some summertime activities.
- In previous years, the church had had movies periodically
- during the summer just for fun.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Mm-hm.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Sixteen mm, whatever.
- And so we decided we'd try and do that.
- And I called up Larry Coppard, who
- was running the little theater at that time and said--
- SALLY WHITBECK: Not Larry, Bill Coppard.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Bill Coppard, excuse me.
- And I talked to him on the phone and he said, well,
- I don't think I can help you--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Find a film.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Yeah, I was asking how can I
- get these films, some films.
- EVELYN BAILEY: About gay people.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Yes.
- And he said, I can't help you, but there's
- a man here in my office that might be able to.
- I'll put him on the line.
- And the next thing, I was listening
- to Larry Champoux who was a member of the GAGV board
- of directors at that time.
- And he had done some research.
- This is all stuff that I learned.
- It wasn't there when I was--
- I wasn't there, anyway.
- There was a statewide convention for gay people in Rochester
- at that Riverside motel.
- And it was a weekend, and Larry got a room,
- and put the bed away and put in a TV set,
- and showed gay movies all day long and all night long as long
- as people would come and see them.
- And he did that for all the day--
- all the time that the thing was there.
- And he told me at one point, he said,
- now I know there's an audience.
- Pink flamingos and purple hearts.
- EVELYN BAILEY: OK.
- SALLY WHITBECK: We didn't go.
- I mean--
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Well, it was--
- that part had passed.
- SALLY WHITBECK: Prior to the time that you talked to Larry.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Mm-hm.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: So then Larry gave me--
- he invited me to come over to his art gallery.
- SALLY WHITBECK: Pyramid Arts.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Pyramid Arts, at that point.
- And he had some catalogs, and he showed me some suggestions
- to look at, and gave me the addresses and stuff like that.
- And I called up people and sent them letters
- and got some movies.
- And then during the summertime, what did we do?
- Five, six, something like that?
- SALLY WHITBECK: Yeah, we did five or six movies.
- But it's interesting because we started with--
- we pussyfooted into this.
- We started with On Golden Pond, which showed aging and some
- Alzheimer's.
- And I can't remember them.
- We finally made it to one or two or three
- films that were gay films.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: The last one or two were women's films.
- And one of them was a woman who was at a ranch in the West
- because she wanted a divorce.
- She was probably in Nevada.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Hm.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: And she got smitten
- by a woman who ran the ranch.
- Well, all that kind of thing.
- You know, there it was.
- That's what we could find.
- SALLY WHITBECK: And then we had dessert and discussion.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Yeah.
- SALLY WHITBECK: You were going to say something?
- EVELYN BAILEY: So that was the first--
- well, the first film presentations?
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Yes
- EVELYN BAILEY: Of gay films?
- SALLY WHITBECK: Yeah, but just at church.
- And then Larry talked--
- called Jamie after that.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Yeah.
- And Larry called me up one day.
- This was after the business had been there.
- And he said, I did you a favor.
- I'd like you to do me a favor.
- Would you-- we're going to have a meeting
- to get people together to do a film festival here
- in Rochester.
- Would you be willing to come and listen?
- Well, I said, sure.
- I'm in the theater, right?
- SALLY WHITBECK: Jamie jumps in.
- He's wonderful at that.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: And this was when
- the GAGV was on Alpha Street at the corner of Atlantic.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
- And ImageOut began as a program.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Right.
- A program of the GAGV.
- And I walked in there, and I didn't know anybody
- except Larry, and he was busy doing what
- he was getting things going on.
- But the energy, the excitement, you know.
- I had to go.
- I just had to go.
- So that's you know-- the next thing I know I was in the car
- and we were taking out flyers and putting them up
- on bars here in the city.
- Well, because this is when the film festival is going to be.
- Oh, it was wonderful.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Do you recall now who some of those people
- were at that initial meeting?
- Susan Soleil?
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Susan and David came in a little later,
- because Larry was the spark.
- But it became-- at least the way I have heard it,
- because I didn't experience this kind of--
- I wasn't at that level of the politics.
- But there was some shift midway in the first year.
- SALLY WHITBECK: So Larry was definitely
- the director, or the person in charge the first year.
- And I think Susan and David must have come after.
- Or Susan, maybe, and Larry the second year.
- I'm not sure.
- But then it became David and Susan.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Susan?
- SALLY WHITBECK: Soleil.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Soleil.
- And David?
- SALLY WHITBECK: Emert.
- E-M-E-R-T. Not sure.
- We're not sure.
- There were some politics going on there
- that we were just not aware of.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- How many-- how many were at that first meeting?
- Or the meeting that Larry invited you to.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: All that could fit in that room.
- It was jammed.
- That big room on the first floor.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Thirty?
- Forty?
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Could have been.
- I don't really know.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Did you see--
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Yes.
- Yes.
- Beth Bailey was there.
- I remember that.
- I got to meet her and we worked together in following times.
- Yeah.
- That wasn't-- I didn't get that at that moment.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- What did you think when you walked in and saw this crowd
- interested in movies?
- JAMIE WHITBECK: You know, I didn't have a perception.
- I think I still have the attitude
- of if something is interesting.
- I'm at least going to see if I'm interested in it.
- Now, would you think that's a reasonable statement?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Definitely.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: OK.
- I think it was the electricity, the energy, and the concept
- of creating something.
- Remember, it has a hook from the theater for me.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: And I had enough understanding and appreciation
- of our two neighbors to know that this
- is where part of that energy and attitude has to be,
- and I want to be part of it.
- SALLY WHITBECK: And I don't think the fact
- that it was a group of gay people really had much--
- Jamie just didn't think of it that way.
- He was invited, which is positive.
- And he just jumped in.
- EVELYN BAILEY: So that first year that you were involved,
- what did you do?
- You ran around and put up posters.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: We put up posters.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And put posters in the bars.
- SALLY WHITBECK: Yes, with Tom Krolak and--
- JAMIE WHITBECK: That's right.
- Tom Krolak.
- And the guy lives in--
- we don't see him much anymore, but he's out there
- in Penfield in that apartment house out there.
- And he's got an aunt that he takes care of.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Oh, Ken.
- Ken Setera?
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Yes.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Oh, OK.
- Yes, and we knew him from church, too, probably.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: So the links are there.
- Sometimes you don't get them, and then you do get them.
- So I'm sorry.
- EVELYN BAILEY: So you passed out posters.
- Was that your--
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Then it came to the time
- when we got to the point where yeah,
- now we got to get the stuff we need to be in the theater.
- And I'm a carry and hold kind of guy.
- If you want to help, I'll--
- EVELYN BAILEY: What theater did you--
- what theater was the--?
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Little Theater.
- EVELYN BAILEY: First, right.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Yeah and it was-- the first theater--
- the first show was in Little One.
- And it was--
- SALLY WHITBECK: Oh, and then the Dryden, too.
- Wasn't closing night at the Dryden, and it sold out?
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Yes.
- Yes, that was right.
- SALLY WHITBECK: Because there were people--
- people from the Unitarian Church, at that point, came.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: And some of them didn't make it
- because the place was sold out.
- 500 and some seats.
- SALLY WHITBECK: Yeah.
- Yeah.
- Jamie--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Were you Secretary of the group?
- JAMIE WHITBECK: That happened-- that happened next.
- First year, year one, year two, year three.
- At the end of year three, there was a--
- SALLY WHITBECK: Difference of opinion, or different views.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: We split from the GAGV.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: And you probably know the mechanism of it.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Well, you had to get your 501C3
- status independently.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Yes.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And you had to become a corporation.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: That's right.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Or at least an LLC.
- SALLY WHITBECK: Right.
- Well, I think from what we understood,
- the GAGV ImageOut had done very well the first year
- financially.
- And so from what I understand, the GAGV,
- when figuring out their budget for the next year,
- figured that ImageOut would bring in about that much money,
- maybe a little more.
- I don't know.
- And second year, they didn't do as well.
- And I'm not sure about third.
- But I think what it became was the artistic personalities
- of ImageOut didn't want to be held
- to a budget, where they had to earn
- a specific amount of money.
- They were much more interested in the artistic view.
- So that's why they split from the Gay Alliance.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
- It was a financial concern.
- SALLY WHITBECK: Yeah.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: We had a meeting upstairs over a bar
- just up from south of Main Street.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Tara's?
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Could have been.
- SALLY WHITBECK: Could have been.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Or Eroise?
- JAMIE WHITBECK: No.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Friar's?
- JAMIE WHITBECK: On the first floor, the main floor,
- where the bar was, there was a big nude statue of--
- EVELYN BAILEY: The Liberty?
- JAMIE WHITBECK: No, the--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Marcella's?
- SALLY WHITBECK: That could be.
- That could be.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Underwater, sort of a water god kind of thing.
- And we had-- there was a space upstairs,
- and we sat around up there.
- And Susan Soleil and a couple others
- talked, and we got to the point where, OK, we'll do this.
- And it was a couple of weeks later,
- I'm in a house over off of Monterey avenue,
- just up from under the Expressway.
- And we sat around and tried to figure out what
- we needed to do to do this.
- And we got an accountant to one of the gay people.
- And he did the kinds of things that needed to be done.
- The legal.
- SALLY WHITBECK: And Paul Mura did the legal.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Paul Mura did that, right.
- SALLY WHITBECK: Yeah.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: And so he got that set up for us,
- and Angela Bonazinga, who was--
- SALLY WHITBECK: Brighton librarian.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Well, yeah, but she was--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Susan Soleil.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Susan's partner.
- SALLY WHITBECK: Oh, right.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: And Angela did a whole lot of accounting stuff
- to make it happen, you know.
- All of these things happened and we just sailed in.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And you did become Secretary.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Yes, that's right.
- EVELYN BAILEY: A board was created.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: We had to have a board.
- And as a consequence of being at that meeting,
- OK, I'll be whatever you want, and I was the scribe, so.
- Those are the things that I gave you a year ago,
- or whatever it was.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- Right.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: It just went on from there.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And you were secretary for three years?
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Yeah, that was the--
- SALLY WHITBECK: I think it was two.
- I'm only thinking it wasn't the full period
- because there was talk about letting new people in.
- And so I think after--
- I think Jamie did it maybe for two years,
- because it seems to me that you gave up your seat earlier
- than the three years so that new people could
- come in to the board.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: I won't argue with you
- because it's a long time.
- SALLY WHITBECK: And meanwhile, you were doing PR,
- you know, a lot.
- There wasn't a big volunteer group.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Yeah, we didn't have a big organization.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- SALLY WHITBECK: So he did a lot.
- He was even chair of a couple of committees--
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Right.
- SALLY WHITBECK: --for a few years in there, at least.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Mm-hm.
- SALLY WHITBECK: And would bring things home,
- and we'd put the PR stuff together and send it out.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Oh yeah, we did a lot of that.
- Sally was the head licker and stamper.
- SALLY WHITBECK: I was the at home helper.
- I was working-- he was working, too-- but I was working
- and I had a lot more to do around the house than he did,
- you know.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- SALLY WHITBECK: And so I'm much more
- conscious of my gift of time than Jamie is.
- I'd stay home and wash the dishes.
- He'd go to a meeting.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Now I wash the dishes.
- SALLY WHITBECK: That's woman's lib for you.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- SALLY WHITBECK: Miss Magazine, 1973.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Let me ask you, what
- do you think the impact of ImageOut
- has been on the Greater Rochester community?
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Well, I'll tell you, I can think of two things.
- One thing that I can think of is that it
- has produced and displayed every year since the beginning,
- and it's an established event.
- Anybody in the city can go there and see the movies.
- And I think-- you know, Sally and I
- do theater operations mostly.
- We only do that now.
- And the variety of people that come in--
- lots of the same people coming every year--
- but there are more and more people
- who are coming in because this or that movie
- seems to tickle them.
- It's out there in the newspapers.
- It's out in the city newspaper, as well
- as the Democrat and Chronicle.
- SALLY WHITBECK: And the Empty Closet.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Yes.
- So that is one change, I think, that has happened.
- And one of the consequences of that
- is there was that Jewish Film Festival,
- there was the Women's Film Festival.
- There were several others that popped up.
- And we were the ones that did it,
- other than the shoestring group, which was much earlier
- and it's still around in different arrangements.
- SALLY WHITBECK: And based at the Dryden.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Yeah.
- SALLY WHITBECK: It's always been.
- Yeah.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Yeah.
- Well, I started out on Goodman Street at the school
- there were that theater is.
- SALLY WHITBECK: Visual studies?
- Honey, well, it's been at the Dryden for years.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Mm-hm.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Yeah.
- But it wasn't always there.
- We saw movies on a shoestring, and behind the--
- behind the Museum and Science Center in that--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Straussenburg?
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Not at the planetarium.
- On Goodman Street.
- It was a girls school.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Oh, Columbia.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Columbia School.
- Thank you.
- But the Museum and Science Center
- had brought that when Columbia moved to Allendale.
- SALLY WHITBECK: Oh, OK.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: And so here was this school and the gym.
- And the gym could be a theater.
- And it was.
- SALLY WHITBECK: Well, one thing we do know
- is that somebody in the Jewish community
- knew Rachel Brister who was the person who was really
- the volunteer staff person for a long time for the film
- festival, for ImageOut.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: For several years.
- SALLY WHITBECK: And so they talked to her about
- how do you set up a film festival.
- So Rachel gave them her expertise.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Mm-hm.
- SALLY WHITBECK: I sometimes am surprised
- that there are people in the gay community who
- are unaware of ImageOut, or have been in the past.
- Maybe-- it's probably not so much now--
- but I remember being surprised that there are people who--
- they just must not read any of the newspapers, Empty Closet
- or the Democratic and Chronicle.
- EVELYN BAILEY: I think that's pretty accurate.
- But I also think today you have social media,
- like Facebook and Twitter and LinkedIn and BranchOut,
- and on and on and on, where the information gets out there.
- Events can be promoted on those sites.
- SALLY WHITBECK: Yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: So it's not so "unknown," quote unquote.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Right.
- EVELYN BAILEY: However, you have a generation coming up
- every year.
- SALLY WHITBECK: Yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And they certainly are not
- informed as much as they could be,
- because they don't pay attention to--
- I mean, they listen to the TV, maybe for CNN.
- But they get all of their news on this handheld whatever.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Mm-hm.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And unless you ask for it,
- it's not going to appear.
- It's not something you're going to ordinarily see
- as you would if you were reading a newspaper,
- where you would see an ad, or you would
- see an article or something.
- Unless on this handheld device you request to see something,
- it's not going to automatically show up.
- SALLY WHITBECK: Now, on the other hand,
- there are people who have come for years.
- There is one man from--
- at least one, from Pittsburgh--
- who comes for the whole festival and stays with Scott McCarney
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Right.
- SALLY WHITBECK: And there are others.
- And there are people who come from Buffalo,
- and have been for years.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Mm-hm.
- SALLY WHITBECK: We took programs down to Ithaca for years.
- I don't know if anybody came from Ithaca.
- We never ran into anybody.
- Oh, and there's even somebody-- we
- did make friends with who came from Toronto.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Mm-hm.
- SALLY WHITBECK: So.
- EVELYN BAILEY: In terms of the gay community,
- what do you think the film festival means?
- SALLY WHITBECK: Well, I would think it's people
- being able to see themselves portrayed on film,
- which was not possible twenty--
- not very possible twenty years ago.
- And I think that's really important.
- And also, it's a coming together of a community,
- and people look forward to that, I would think.
- I know, as a theater operations person, taking tickets,
- I look forward to seeing people--
- people who will become friends, and also people
- I just recognize from having attended the film
- festival for many years.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Mm-hm.
- SALLY WHITBECK: What do you think?
- JAMIE WHITBECK: You said it.
- SALLY WHITBECK: OK.
- EVELYN BAILEY: So for each of you,
- I would like you to answer this question.
- When you look back over your involvement with ImageOut,
- what stands out most in your mind?
- What-- was there a particular film?
- Was there a particular year?
- Was there a particular event?
- Opening night, closing night?
- What stands out most in your mind about the festival?
- SALLY WHITBECK: Well, we did get award, which is
- more for your work than mine.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: The ability--
- the experience of having been part
- of this vibrant organization with interesting people
- and interesting entertainment, and the enjoyment
- of not only just taking in the show,
- but also being a part of the process.
- It's very satisfying to me to even sweep up the popcorn
- and get it ready for the next show.
- This is an activity, but more than just an activity, it's a--
- SALLY WHITBECK: Event?
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Well, it's an event.
- It's almost a theological kind of thing.
- It's almost--
- SALLY WHITBECK: A spiritual experience?
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Yeah, a spiritual experience,
- because you're working with the people--
- with other people, with other people who have--
- they're working with you and you share and you don't have--
- nobody is getting angry at anybody else.
- They're all working to make something
- that we think is good and fun and interesting.
- And it can't be done by magic.
- It's the process of people putting it together and making
- it happen so that lots of people can participate,
- however much or not.
- The people that we don't know whose name they are,
- they still may be getting things that maybe we don't get.
- But that's OK.
- That's nice.
- That's very good.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Sally?
- SALLY WHITBECK: I'm really proud to be
- a member of the film festival.
- There are so many volunteers, that I'm proud of it
- as a volunteer organization.
- We still, after twenty years, only have one part-time office
- person.
- Everything else is volunteer.
- And of course, there are people, especially the programmers,
- who spend a lot of their-- give a lot of their time, Michael
- Gamilla being the notable person at this point.
- But there's a lot of people who work on it together.
- And we do get some funding, but when the Women's Film Festival
- started--
- maybe what?
- Five years ago?
- I was a bit turned off because they got
- a tremendous amount of funding.
- They get funding from the county, which of course, is
- anti-gay with Maggie in there.
- And everything was really high-class,
- or it just didn't have the grassroots
- support that ImageOut has.
- So I'm just--
- I would much rather belong to a group
- where there's volunteers than to a group that
- makes it or doesn't make it, as they've had problems
- relying on lots of money.
- And I'm proud.
- When I say I'm proud, I don't think of myself
- as being proud as a straight person.
- I'm just proud as a person to be part of this community effort.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Is the Women's Festival still--
- Film Festival still--
- SALLY WHITBECK: I don't know.
- They hooked up with shoestring and then
- I remember reading something about,
- well, they were going to come back.
- And maybe last year they showed a couple films.
- And they always have these great movie stars coming to town.
- And ImageOut has great gay movie people coming--
- movie stars.
- And in the beginning, some of them, at least,
- were put up in people's houses.
- Because one young gay couple stayed with us.
- They were from Toronto and one of them
- had produced one of the shorts.
- So I don't know the situation with the Women's Film Festival.
- I haven't followed it, and it comes
- very close after ImageOut, so I've seen
- enough movies that I've seen--
- I must admit, I've never seen any through the Women's Film
- Festival.
- One year we saw one on Louis Kahn, the architect
- of the First Unitarian Church shown in the Little Theater,
- that it had been a film in the Women's Film Festival.
- But this was after the film-- after their festival.
- And there was at least one other showing with a panel.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Hm.
- I don't recall seeing much or hearing much
- about it, actually.
- SALLY WHITBECK: No, no.
- They do have some people who work hard as volunteers.
- I know one person, Betty Schaefer who
- they put a lot of time into it.
- But it always seemed to me that the money came very easily.
- And people who volunteer as volunteers there will be told,
- OK, you'll do six hours today, and that's sort of it.
- There isn't the sort of the family
- that you find in ImageOut.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Sense of community.
- SALLY WHITBECK: Yeah, right.
- Right.
- And as a woman, I'm surprised sort of--
- chagrined that I feel that way about the Women's Film
- Festival.
- But I think it's also a money thing, and a high class
- versus the rest of us.
- Not that we're low class.
- ImageOut is high class.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Well I think what you're--
- and not to put words in your mouth-- but ImageOut
- makes a huge attempt to make their films affordable.
- SALLY WHITBECK: Yes, very much so.
- You're right.
- EVELYN BAILEY: To everyone, regardless of economic status.
- SALLY WHITBECK: Right.
- And that's very important to me.
- It always has been.
- Somehow, as a kid I've always had that concern.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Sense of fairness.
- SALLY WHITBECK: Yes, yes.
- A very strong sense of fairness.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Mm-hm.
- Now, I don't want to put either of you in a bad mood.
- But when Jamie and Sally are no longer here,
- how do you want this community to remember you?
- SALLY WHITBECK: Oh, wow.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Well.
- SALLY WHITBECK: As supporters, as friends.
- That's really all I can think of, supporters and friends.
- Jamie said, and I certainly agree, that we are as--
- we are probably more blessed by the community
- than they are by us, in the sense
- that we've received an awful lot from our experience,
- and enjoyed it.
- The politics with the Empire State Pride Agenda.
- ImageOut is just-- we're accepted, which is important.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: I'm thinking that I
- would like to be remembered of sharing
- my best friends, and my two children,
- and my wife, and my best friends.
- That is the central part of my family.
- I am much closer in my interest and passion
- for being a part of the gay community in a very small way.
- I'm not gay, but I've been welcomed
- by the gay community in a way that, other
- than my family, no other organization or group
- has done that.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Mm-hm.
- Now, a couple of more questions, and then we can--
- you, I think, have received a couple of awards.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Yes we have.
- EVELYN BAILEY: One was from the Empire State Pride Agenda.
- SALLY WHITBECK: Right.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And that was?
- Do you remember what the name of that--
- SALLY WHITBECK: Well, Jamie has them all up here.
- First came ImageOut.
- First was the GAGV.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Ah.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Yeah.
- SALLY WHITBECK: 1997.
- 1997 GAGV Friend of the Community Award,
- Jamie Whitbeck.
- And then-- these are heavy.
- EVELYN BAILEY: You don't have to bring them over, Sally.
- Then ImageOut Volunteers of the Year Award, Jamie and Sally,
- October 2006.
- And that was the first volunteers award
- that ImageOut gave, so that was very moving.
- And then in 2000--
- EVELYN BAILEY: --10?
- SALLY WHITBECK: '08 or '09?
- I've looked at it.
- 2009.
- Something of the Community.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Friend of the Community.
- SALLY WHITBECK: Friend of the Community from Empire State
- Pride Agenda, because we've been going to Empire State Pride
- Agenda lobby days since we were at church.
- In fact, the first year we went, we
- went as clergy and laypeople-- concerned laypeople went.
- And we drove and there wasn't any--
- that was a different day, and I don't
- think they had their lobby day at that point.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- SALLY WHITBECK: So it was the GAGV that first gave Jamie
- the award.
- So 1997.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Wow.
- SALLY WHITBECK: Yeah.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: And there's one more.
- SALLY WHITBECK: Oh.
- Ah, well, that's ImageOut, isn't it?
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Let's see, 2007 Streets of Pride Lifetime--
- This is with the parade.
- SALLY WHITBECK: Yes, pride.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: The parade.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Oh.
- SALLY WHITBECK: Lifetime Achievement.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Pride Parade.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Oh, OK.
- SALLY WHITBECK: Oh, community business forum.
- All right.
- I forgot about that.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: That might have been
- the last year of the community business forum.
- SALLY WHITBECK: No, it wasn't.
- It wasn't, I don't think, was it?
- It went on--
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Lifetime Achievement.
- SALLY WHITBECK: Nineteen what?
- EVELYN BAILEY: 2007.
- SALLY WHITBECK: Yeah, and the community forum's
- been around longer.
- Just somebody left town who ran it.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: The two guys that went to Texas.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Tim Strongman and Jerry Mason.
- SALLY WHITBECK: Yes.
- Right, right.
- Yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: The Alliance, this was their third year.
- SALLY WHITBECK: Oh, OK.
- EVELYN BAILEY: With pride.
- SALLY WHITBECK: Yeah
- EVELYN BAILEY: This is their third year.
- SALLY WHITBECK: So we walked in the pride parade.
- The church walked in the pride parade
- before we got involved in the gay community.
- I'm sure it was after the--
- well, maybe Jamie was involved in ImageOut,
- and I somewhat in the background.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Yeah, that's right,
- because I walked with the GAGV and you walked with your church
- group that first time.
- SALLY WHITBECK: OK, and then we both walked
- with church for several years before ImageOut
- walked in the parade, I guess.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Or we walked in the parade
- with the church group.
- SALLY WHITBECK: Right.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Oh, right.
- OK.
- Yeah, all right.
- SALLY WHITBECK: For a few years.
- Yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: So now I have one final question.
- What would you say to a young person
- who is becoming involved in the gay community,
- or who is just coming out?
- What would you tell them?
- What advice would you give them?
- SALLY WHITBECK: It would sort of depend on their situation,
- wouldn't it?
- Whether their family is accepting or not.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Possibly.
- SALLY WHITBECK: Mm-hm.
- EVELYN BAILEY: But I guess when I'm
- kind of looking for is here you are,
- thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen,
- nineteen, twenty, twenty-five, thirty-five, forty.
- And you are now accepting of yourself
- as a gay man or a lesbian, or any anywhere on that spectrum.
- SALLY WHITBECK: Mm-hm.
- EVELYN BAILEY: What would you say to them to encourage them
- to continue to move forward?
- I mean--
- SALLY WHITBECK: I would hope that they would get involved
- in the gay community through--
- I would tell them about ImageOut and the volunteers that
- work there.
- And there's lots of volunteers.
- And for some, it's a commitment just
- for a short period of the year.
- I would certainly want them to know about Empire State Pride
- Agenda and even more so about the Gay Alliance,
- if they didn't know about it.
- I would try and connect them with somebody who's--
- probably somebody who's in the Gay Alliance.
- But if it were ImageOut time, somebody in ImageOut also.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: If this person had no other organization
- or individual to point them in a way toward something
- like the Alliance or the GAGV or the Film Festival, but to--
- you will need support.
- You you will need support.
- And you need to go with your heart even more than your head.
- It may be painful, but it is more important to be yourself
- and to find people like yourself who can share with you
- and help you, other people who will love you.
- That's what I would say, I guess.
- It was a long way down.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
- Well, I think--
- I could be--
- I don't think I'm wrong in my impression,
- but that has been a very mutual relationship between you
- and Sally and the community, and the community and you
- and Sally, that there is--
- JAMIE WHITBECK: We have said, we have
- these blessings so many times from an event
- with the gay community.
- SALLY WHITBECK: And thinking about it,
- I didn't realize how important it was.
- There was somebody at church who,
- when we were on the committee to become
- a welcoming congregation, that person went to the Gay Men's
- Chorus concerts, but she definitely
- said to people on our committee, you shouldn't go to the picnic.
- Gay people want to stay by themselves.
- They don't want-- not that we-- not that anybody
- was going to go to the picnic, but it was an us and a them.
- Not in a negative way, that's for sure,
- because she certainly is a supporter.
- And I think, from my perspective,
- and thanks to Jamie, because as I said, he jumps i.
- And I would have to be--
- well, he was invited by Larry Champoux--
- I would have to be sure that the community wanted me.
- And I'm sure there are people in the community who don't.
- We went to a birthday party once about ten years ago.
- There was a woman there-- it was at this person's house--
- it was a big birthday.
- Maybe it was her 50th, I don't remember.
- And there was a woman there who was speaking vociferously
- against straight people, and then all of a sudden
- we walk in the room, and I think it gave some people
- bit of discomfort.
- And I must admit, I just stayed away
- from her the rest of the evening.
- Now, I'm maybe more mature.
- I would maybe talk to her.
- I can't remember my train of thought.
- What was my train of thought?
- Anyway, it's thanks to Jamie that we're
- in the community, and thanks to Larry Champoux.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Mm-hm.
- And to our two friends who gave us
- a gift, because we learned from them and without--
- How do I want to say this?
- No tangible or verbal statement was expressed,
- but what it let us do is use our own heads and our own hearts
- and to see where we could make a difference.
- And they were the people who showed us
- where the opportunity might be.
- SALLY WHITBECK: And we know--
- we cared for them very much, and they cared
- for us and our two daughters.
- So there was that.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Well, thank you very much.
- JAMIE WHITBECK: Thank you.
- EVELYN BAILEY: It has been a very humbling experience
- to be with you and to listen to your stories.