Audio Interview, Jamie and Sally Whitbeck, September 17, 2012

EVELYN BAILEY: I'm here with Jamie Whitbeck and Sally

Whitbeck and the date is September 17th, 2012.

And I'm in their lovely home at 1077 E. Ave.

And we've been talking for a while about our past

and our own histories, and I asked Jamie and Sally

to consider responding to the question,

why have they become so involved in the LGBT community

here in Rochester?

What catapulted them into activity, into commitment,

into sharing of themselves and their time?

So I'm not going to decide who answers.

I'll let them decide who answers.

JAMIE WHITBECK: OK, this is Jamie.

I think-- I'm not sure where the initial spark came from,

but it was involved--

it involved with a change in where we lived.

We had moved to a new house with our two daughters,

and we had been in our house for a few months.

And this event happened in early summer,

when one Sunday morning--

maybe it was Sunday afternoon--

two men, whom we had made acquaintance earlier--

SALLY WHITBECK: At a party.

JAMIE WHITBECK: --because they were

living in the same neighborhood that we had just--

they had just moved into.

And now we, also, two, three months later, moved into it.

They appeared at our door in the afternoon on a Sunday,

a nice warm day.

And they knocked on the door and we went to the door,

and both of our daughters got to the door before I did.

But there they were, the two fellas standing there,

and one of them had in his hand a bottle of champagne.

It was cold.

You could see the sweat on the bottle.

And the other had four glasses.

And they said, we are coming to welcome us to the neighborhood.

SALLY WHITBECK: It was a little less than months

because we moved in in June.

JAMIE WHITBECK: Oh, OK.

Well.

SALLY WHITBECK: Anyway.

JAMIE WHITBECK: Well, those two men

who lived in the same neighborhood

that we did, and we're not going to tell you

their names because--

SALLY WHITBECK: No.

JAMIE WHITBECK: We don't need that.

Those two men were--

well, we learned a lot from them.

They-- they had a lovely dog, which both of our daughters

fell in love with, and they were welcoming.

They invited us to come to their house many times.

And as we knew them better, the more

we knew about them and their business--

they were both professionals--

and we realized that they were in the closet.

Now, we didn't know what in the closet was, I don't think,

but we knew that their being a couple

was not acceptable in most situations in this area.

SALLY WHITBECK: And where they worked.

JAMIE WHITBECK: Well, yeah, Sally.

SALLY WHITBECK: And where they worked.

One worked for the county and he definitely was closeted.

The other was a professional at Kodak,

and we don't really know if he was.

JAMIE WHITBECK: So as we enjoyed their company

and they came to see us, and the kids

kept playing with the dogs--

SALLY WHITBECK: Right.

JAMIE WHITBECK: --they began to give us

hints about the relationship with their families

and the relationship with other gay people.

We didn't know they were gay at that time.

And we realized that they were unable to speak out

about their concerns, and their--

their sense of not being accepted.

It made us think, well, if they can't speak out,

somebody has to.

And we began trying to express, from our position,

because we were a straight couple with children,

that we had to get some information out.

We had to get some--

how can people be nicer, be more welcoming than it is now?

SALLY WHITBECK: OK, let me say something.

Our kids were three--

were five and seven when we moved in.

And-- what was I going to say?

This couple became good friends with our family.

It was a very tight-knit community neighborhood,

spread out geographically.

But having potlucks, and we went to their house for dinner,

not potlucks, and they came to ours.

And the kids were real friendly with them.

And it was just a very, very pleasant relationship.

And at some point we must have heard on the radio

or seen in the paper that--

all we can figure is that the assembly

must have been voting on SONDA.

And we moved in this house in June of 1970.

And so at some point along the way--

and this was, I'm sure, it seems like it was several years

after we moved in--

we left there in '84.

And it was-- so it was before that.

We remember writing our state--

probably assembly person-- we remember

writing some political figure and stating our position

that we were, as Jamie said, a straight couple with children,

and we were advocating for the passage of SONDA.

We had both-- we had worked in, somewhat,

in civil rights for blacks.

So this was a civil rights question,

although I've come to realize that it

was more than a civil rights question because we had

these friends, who if they couldn't be out, then

we figured that most of the gay community couldn't be out.

And as Jamie says, it's up to somebody else to advocate.

Somebody-- I mean, it wasn't going to do us any harm at all.

EVELYN BAILEY: Mm-hm.

JAMIE WHITBECK: And we wrote letters

to the Democrat and Chronicle.

We began to hear, or get involved in,

the Gay Alliance, its component that was--

SALLY WHITBECK: Bill--

JAMIE WHITBECK: Bill, Bill--

SALLY WHITBECK: Pritchards, political caucus.

JAMIE WHITBECK: Yeah, political caucus.

And that intrigued us, and we met some people there.

And gradually, we got more familiar with the Gay Alliance

Organization.

It was just gradual, getting to know

and getting to understand the issues.

EVELYN BAILEY: Let me stop you for a minute,

and I want to go back.

Are you both from the Rochester area?

Were you born and raised in Rochester?

JAMIE WHITBECK: Mm-hm.

EVELYN BAILEY: And you earlier said, Jamie,

that when you met these two gentlemen, the word gay,

the word out, the word closet, didn't--

JAMIE WHITBECK: We didn't know that.

We didn't know those words.

SALLY WHITBECK: I don't know if we knew gay,

but we certainly didn't know being out

and being in the closet.

I don't think we knew any of that.

And we may not even have been familiar with gay,

but I think we must have been familiar

with the word gay, at least.

If I was, you were.

JAMIE WHITBECK: It's a long time.

SALLY WHITBECK: Yeah, yeah.

Sure is, yeah, so.

EVELYN BAILEY: What in your--

what in your upbringing would you

identify as being non-prejudicial contribution?

I mean, one doesn't assume that if you

meet someone who is different, you're

going to respond in a negative way.

But in 1970, Stonewall had just happened in '69.

The Gay Liberation Front began at the University of Rochester.

In '73, the Alliance came into existence.

By 1977, CETA funding was coming before city council.

And then there was the era of AIDS in the '80s, and Jackie

Nudd confronting the Chamber of Commerce

for not letting us use the chamber to have

an annual meeting and dance.

And all of the--

but, and maybe it's a question you can't answer.

Your family of origin must have been very open,

or must have been very--

SALLY WHITBECK: I'll go first.

EVELYN BAILEY: --nonjudgmental.

SALLY WHITBECK: You go first.

JAMIE WHITBECK: I am the black sheep of my family.

I have two brothers.

They are very nice and they're still, fortunately, alive

and doing fine.

But I was always on a different track.

I'll give you an example.

When I was in high school, I got involved in the theater

that the school provided periodically.

Students acted and made plays.

And I just latched on to that.

I love the theater, and I still do.

And when I was--

and I knew very quickly that I was not an actor,

but I could do back stage work, which I enjoyed.

I love to do things with my hands.

And at one time, there was a younger guy

who was working with me who was, I have to say,

almost effeminate, delicate.

I liked working with him, and he was a good worker.

But I began to hear other guys making cracks

about my being so close to this kid that was so namby-pamby,

I don't know what you'd call it, but very, very effeminate.

Well, that happened and so I kind of backed away.

And it happened again when I was in college.

Same kind of situation.

Well, not quite the same kind, but it was--

I felt uncomfortable being too close to this other guy.

I liked what he was doing, but his interest in the theater

were--

they fitted with my ability to make the thing happen.

He was doing the head part, I was doing the hand part.

At any rate, but he had one of the very few single dorm rooms.

At this point, some time in my life,

I realized that they didn't want anybody else--

nobody else wanted to be in the same bedroom with him.

I should know.

So I did have these experiences and I really

didn't know what to do with them.

It bothered me a little, but it didn't bother

me enough to get a hold of it.

And maybe that's part of what let

me get into a different kind of association

with different goals.

EVELYN BAILEY: Hm.

SALLY WHITBECK: I was born in Brighton, grew up in Brighton

right through high school.

I didn't realize that people were prejudiced.

My parents never were outwardly prejudicial.

And later on, when I talked to my dad--

when he took over his father's business when his father was

dying, and my dad was twenty-two or so--

he said that there were times when the Jewish workers were

given less work and therefore went home after half a day,

and that when he took charge, he changed that.

And he just announced to everybody

that everybody was getting an even amount of work.

Now, I didn't hear that as a child.

I only heard that ten years ago, six years ago.

Anyway, but I grew up in Brighton.

So I always figured in Brighton there was about--

in school, about a third of us were Protestant.

A third, Roman Catholic.

And our Lady of Lords had a school there for K through 6th,

and McQuaid opened at some point there.

And a third were Jewish.

And I never felt any prejudice.

And then we also--

also, I went to an Episcopal church, and our minister--

minister's wife knew Mrs. Sibley, I think,

who worked with-- who was working

with the black community for recognition.

And one of the things that we did one afternoon a week

for a bit was to go to a daycare center,

I think on Baden Street or Ormand, associated with St.

Julian Simkins Church--

let's see, St. Simon.

And we went to St. Simon's Church for a service.

And I remember the incense.

It was really, really fantastic.

So I'd had that experience.

And as I said, my parents never spoke against anybody.

I later found out--

one of my grandmothers was Irish--

and as I grew up and we were raising our kids,

some of that prejudice surfaced in her

that I had not been aware of.

She had not ever voiced it when I was growing up, so.

And your family, how did they feel about blacks?

I mean, mine didn't ever say anything one way or the other.

JAMIE WHITBECK: Yeah.

My grandmother, with whom our family lived for a while

at the terminal end of my grandmother's life,

we moved into the house, which she had--

she and her husband had--

well, it was a big, old mansion.

And she was rattling around in there alone

and she needed help.

And some of the help was professional-- nursing--

and then they had a cook.

Those kinds of things showed me some prejudice.

There was, at one point, a partner

who was-- not a partner, but an employee-- who

came from Europe.

Very heavy accent, terrific guy.

That was fine.

But another time, there was a black person in the same role.

And that was not a happy situation,

except for one point when he took my younger brother and I

to the ballgame, and he knew all the ballplayers.

And at the Red Wings, you know?

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

JAMIE WHITBECK: But he was--

he was aside.

He was different.

EVELYN BAILEY: Mm-hm.

JAMIE WHITBECK: You know, I don't think--

I don't remember my response to that.

He seemed like a nice guy, what should I worry about?

But my parents and my grandparents-- my grandmother,

anyway--

had different attitudes and different perspectives.

I did a lot of reading, and I don't know how it worked out,

but I began to understand that there

were some different aspects.

I didn't have to have all of the same things that my other--

the rest of my family did.

And at that point, my younger brother--

well, anyway, so.

EVELYN BAILEY: But at some--

well, because of your experiences

and because of your identifying yourself

as the black sheep of your family, you were not put off.

You were not afraid.

You were not cautious.

You were not-- any of that in meeting different people,

whether they be gay, whether they

be Hindu, whether they be Arabs, whether they be pink, purple,

or white.

And so it seems that this couple that you

got to know very well in Rochester, when

your children were young and so forth,

began to open the door to the both of you

and your family to understanding another culture,

another way of life that was different, and yet in some ways

the same as yours.

SALLY WHITBECK: Right.

But we never did discuss gay, straight, anything

like that with them.

And yet we were very close in some ways.

But we saw how they lived.

We knew they shared a bedroom, bed.

But it was never disgust.

EVELYN BAILEY: And that was the time.

Most things having to deal with sexuality

were not discussed, whether it was gay or straight.

SALLY WHITBECK: Right.

EVELYN BAILEY: Somehow you were expected

to know this by osmosis or from the air or something.

SALLY WHITBECK: The water.

EVELYN BAILEY: You know, the water.

When you-- who was the person, though,

who got you involved with the Gay Alliance?

Was it Bill?

JAMIE WHITBECK: I can't really remember.

It could have been Bill Pritchard,

and I don't know how I would have found him.

SALLY WHITBECK: We might have read something

in city newspaper, which was City East.

Although we didn't--

JAMIE WHITBECK: There was a theater here

There was a theater in Rochester at Calvary St. Andrews Church.

Do you know where that is?

EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.

JAMIE WHITBECK: OK.

And the church was struggling, and they had welcomed a theater

company to come in and use one corner of their sanctuary

as a small stage.

And I told you, I liked the theater.

And this was after we were out there in Fairport,

where these other guys work.

There was a newspaper column that said it's going to have--

here's the play it's going to be.

And I talked to Sally about it, gee, this would be kind of fun.

Well, Sally didn't think it was kind of fun.

SALLY WHITBECK: Well--

JAMIE WHITBECK: Well, I don't want

to make a big deal out of it.

SALLY WHITBECK: Yeah, I want to say something.

JAMIE WHITBECK: But another one came along,

and one way or another--

SALLY WHITBECK: It said, all are welcome.

JAMIE WHITBECK: Oh, that's right.

That's right.

SALLY WHITBECK: And this is a big difference

between Jamie and me.

I think I was brought up to be a good girl.

Don't stir the kettle.

And Jamie, when his mother said, jump, he didn't say, how high?

He said, forget it.

So we have two very different personalities.

And so Jamie's willing to jump into things that I'm not.

And my concern, when he saw the announcement

about the first play, was that we

would be barging into the gay community

and that they might not like that.

So we didn't go.

But then, as Jamie said, the second time,

it said very clearly in the ad in City East, all are welcome.

So we went, and we walked in the door to buy our tickets,

and we were so welcomed by the person who

was in charge, who got this group, Conundrum Players,

together.

And later, too soon for Rochester,

went to New York City.

But they did at least those two plays,

and they may have done more.

There was one, The Watched Pot--

two lesbian couples-- no, one lesbian couple

played by two women in their youth, and then two women

as they were aging.

And we still remember that play.

EVELYN BAILEY: Wow.

JAMIE WHITBECK: Yeah.

SALLY WHITBECK: So we were welcomed.

EVELYN BAILEY: Do you remember-- what was the name of the group?

SALLY WHITBECK: The Conundrum Players.

But I don't remember the name of the guy who was the director

and founder, probably.

JAMIE WHITBECK: The archives of that church would probably

have a record.

SALLY WHITBECK: Well, I would think also

the Empty Closet would.

EVELYN BAILEY: Probably.

SALLY WHITBECK: Yeah.

JAMIE WHITBECK: Yeah, that's true.

SALLY WHITBECK: Because this is still

before we moved, but probably very close.

Maybe in the early '80s.

As I said, we moved in '84, so.

EVELYN BAILEY: So the Alliance wasn't a theater, though.

JAMIE WHITBECK: That's right.

SALLY WHITBECK: No.

EVELYN BAILEY: So somehow that group brought you into contact,

perhaps, with people who were involved with the Alliance or--

SALLY WHITBECK: Or maybe it was the political caucus,

because we were--

well, I think we both were brought up that you voted.

I mean, you hear about people who don't vote these days.

We just both-- that was something a good citizen did,

and so we were politically--

we were politically active, because we even

went door to door for certain people, like George McGovern.

I went door to door with the teenager across the street.

And Jamie was active.

One of our other neighbors was a Democrat

trying to break into the Republican Perinton town board.

Jamie managed his campaign.

EVELYN BAILEY: Hm.

SALLY WHITBECK: So we were somewhat politically active

on the fringes, let's say.

So it easily could have been the political caucus,

because we remember going to Ellison Park to a picnic

that I think--

I think we were invited to, but maybe we

just went, where one of the women who

was running for Judge.

And I can't remember, but I think she's still active.

EVELYN BAILEY: Ellen Yacknin?

SALLY WHITBECK: No.

No, this is way before Ellen.

JAMIE WHITBECK: We did meet Ellen,

but that was a long time.

SALLY WHITBECK: Yeah, anyway, I don't know.

So we were in the political--

I mean, we were not, probably, members

of the political caucus, if they had members.

And then that morphed into ESPA--

well, political caucus.

The GAGV found that they couldn't support

a political action committee.

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

SALLY WHITBECK: So I think the political caucus sort of--

and I could be wrong about this--

but they sort of stopped their political action,

at least as a branch of the GAGV at about the same time as ESPA

began, the Empire State Pride Agenda.

EVELYN BAILEY: Mm-hm.

SALLY WHITBECK: So then there was an ESPA party at--

JAMIE WHITBECK: Home.

SALLY WHITBECK: --at home, which was a small restaurant or bar.

On-- it starts with C.

EVELYN BAILEY: Here in Rochester?

SALLY WHITBECK: Yeah, not Court Street, not-- but very near.

Chestnut.

JAMIE WHITBECK: Chestnut Street.

SALLY WHITBECK: And it was later demolished.

JAMIE WHITBECK: Before they realigned it.

SALLY WHITBECK: Yeah, right.

It was demolished in the--

and Jamie knew that there was this ESPA event.

And we knew-- oh, who am I trying to think of?

Well, we somehow-- well, we knew from the political caucus,

we knew a few of the people.

And we walked into this, and I remember one guy at the door--

whose name escapes me right now, and yet I know it--

and he sort of went--

he was really surprised, I think, that we were there.

And we walked in, and we're not real good in social situations.

And we walked up some stairs and we were standing there sort

of thinking, what do we do?

People were standing around with drinks and some food maybe.

And Susan (unintelligible) came over to us.

And she took us under her wing and got us something to drink

and made us feel welcome.

And so after that--

JAMIE WHITBECK: And Susan (unintelligible)

and her partners and associates.

SALLY WHITBECK: And friends, yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

SALLY WHITBECK: And so we just went to more ESPA events.

EVELYN BAILEY: Now, do you recall what year that was?

Because this is the 20th anniversary of ImageOut.

ImageOut began in 1982, and originally--

SALLY WHITBECK: No, '93.

JAMIE WHITBECK: The first film festival was in '93.

EVELYN BAILEY: '93.

That's thirty years ago.

SALLY WHITBECK: No, wait.

How can it be twenty years?

'93, yes.

It's twenty years.

Right.

Right.

Yes, right.

1993 is when ImageOut began.

EVELYN BAILEY: You do better man than I do, and I'm a teacher.

SALLY WHITBECK: I loved math.

JAMIE WHITBECK: Well, blood--

ImageOut flows through our veins.

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

SALLY WHITBECK: Well, also we joined the Unitarian Church

in January of 1978.

I mean, we didn't become members right away,

but we started going in January of '78.

And so the church--

I think it was--

I can't remember when it started working on becoming

a welcoming congregation.

And then Jamie can speak to how he got involved in ImageOut

through the work that we did at church

as the welcoming congregation.

And there were--

I can't remember if there were any gay people there

at the church at that time, but I remember at least one.

JAMIE WHITBECK: Yes, one guy that I remember, the tall guy.

SALLY WHITBECK: OK, and there was

one lesbian couple at least, Judy Lawrence and Pat Collins.

JAMIE WHITBECK: Right.

SALLY WHITBECK: And they had been in that church

before we joined.

So we were working on that aspect.

And then one of the--

JAMIE WHITBECK: Yeah, we decided--

now, we're switching to putting our venue at the Unitarian

Church, and we had this idea of doing

some summertime activities.

In previous years, the church had had movies periodically

during the summer just for fun.

EVELYN BAILEY: Mm-hm.

JAMIE WHITBECK: Sixteen mm, whatever.

And so we decided we'd try and do that.

And I called up Larry Coppard, who

was running the little theater at that time and said--

SALLY WHITBECK: Not Larry, Bill Coppard.

JAMIE WHITBECK: Bill Coppard, excuse me.

And I talked to him on the phone and he said, well,

I don't think I can help you--

EVELYN BAILEY: Find a film.

JAMIE WHITBECK: Yeah, I was asking how can I

get these films, some films.

EVELYN BAILEY: About gay people.

JAMIE WHITBECK: Yes.

And he said, I can't help you, but there's

a man here in my office that might be able to.

I'll put him on the line.

And the next thing, I was listening

to Larry Champoux who was a member of the GAGV board

of directors at that time.

And he had done some research.

This is all stuff that I learned.

It wasn't there when I was--

I wasn't there, anyway.

There was a statewide convention for gay people in Rochester

at that Riverside motel.

And it was a weekend, and Larry got a room,

and put the bed away and put in a TV set,

and showed gay movies all day long and all night long as long

as people would come and see them.

And he did that for all the day--

all the time that the thing was there.

And he told me at one point, he said,

now I know there's an audience.

Pink flamingos and purple hearts.

EVELYN BAILEY: OK.

SALLY WHITBECK: We didn't go.

I mean--

JAMIE WHITBECK: Well, it was--

that part had passed.

SALLY WHITBECK: Prior to the time that you talked to Larry.

EVELYN BAILEY: Mm-hm.

JAMIE WHITBECK: So then Larry gave me--

he invited me to come over to his art gallery.

SALLY WHITBECK: Pyramid Arts.

JAMIE WHITBECK: Pyramid Arts, at that point.

And he had some catalogs, and he showed me some suggestions

to look at, and gave me the addresses and stuff like that.

And I called up people and sent them letters

and got some movies.

And then during the summertime, what did we do?

Five, six, something like that?

SALLY WHITBECK: Yeah, we did five or six movies.

But it's interesting because we started with--

we pussyfooted into this.

We started with On Golden Pond, which showed aging and some

Alzheimer's.

And I can't remember them.

We finally made it to one or two or three

films that were gay films.

JAMIE WHITBECK: The last one or two were women's films.

And one of them was a woman who was at a ranch in the West

because she wanted a divorce.

She was probably in Nevada.

EVELYN BAILEY: Hm.

JAMIE WHITBECK: And she got smitten

by a woman who ran the ranch.

Well, all that kind of thing.

You know, there it was.

That's what we could find.

SALLY WHITBECK: And then we had dessert and discussion.

JAMIE WHITBECK: Yeah.

SALLY WHITBECK: You were going to say something?

EVELYN BAILEY: So that was the first--

well, the first film presentations?

JAMIE WHITBECK: Yes

EVELYN BAILEY: Of gay films?

SALLY WHITBECK: Yeah, but just at church.

And then Larry talked--

called Jamie after that.

JAMIE WHITBECK: Yeah.

And Larry called me up one day.

This was after the business had been there.

And he said, I did you a favor.

I'd like you to do me a favor.

Would you-- we're going to have a meeting

to get people together to do a film festival here

in Rochester.

Would you be willing to come and listen?

Well, I said, sure.

I'm in the theater, right?

SALLY WHITBECK: Jamie jumps in.

He's wonderful at that.

JAMIE WHITBECK: And this was when

the GAGV was on Alpha Street at the corner of Atlantic.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.

And ImageOut began as a program.

JAMIE WHITBECK: Right.

A program of the GAGV.

And I walked in there, and I didn't know anybody

except Larry, and he was busy doing what

he was getting things going on.

But the energy, the excitement, you know.

I had to go.

I just had to go.

So that's you know-- the next thing I know I was in the car

and we were taking out flyers and putting them up

on bars here in the city.

Well, because this is when the film festival is going to be.

Oh, it was wonderful.

EVELYN BAILEY: Do you recall now who some of those people

were at that initial meeting?

Susan Soleil?

JAMIE WHITBECK: Susan and David came in a little later,

because Larry was the spark.

But it became-- at least the way I have heard it,

because I didn't experience this kind of--

I wasn't at that level of the politics.

But there was some shift midway in the first year.

SALLY WHITBECK: So Larry was definitely

the director, or the person in charge the first year.

And I think Susan and David must have come after.

Or Susan, maybe, and Larry the second year.

I'm not sure.

But then it became David and Susan.

EVELYN BAILEY: Susan?

SALLY WHITBECK: Soleil.

EVELYN BAILEY: Soleil.

And David?

SALLY WHITBECK: Emert.

E-M-E-R-T. Not sure.

We're not sure.

There were some politics going on there

that we were just not aware of.

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

How many-- how many were at that first meeting?

Or the meeting that Larry invited you to.

JAMIE WHITBECK: All that could fit in that room.

It was jammed.

That big room on the first floor.

EVELYN BAILEY: Thirty?

Forty?

JAMIE WHITBECK: Could have been.

I don't really know.

EVELYN BAILEY: Did you see--

JAMIE WHITBECK: Yes.

Yes.

Beth Bailey was there.

I remember that.

I got to meet her and we worked together in following times.

Yeah.

That wasn't-- I didn't get that at that moment.

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

What did you think when you walked in and saw this crowd

interested in movies?

JAMIE WHITBECK: You know, I didn't have a perception.

I think I still have the attitude

of if something is interesting.

I'm at least going to see if I'm interested in it.

Now, would you think that's a reasonable statement?

EVELYN BAILEY: Definitely.

JAMIE WHITBECK: OK.

I think it was the electricity, the energy, and the concept

of creating something.

Remember, it has a hook from the theater for me.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

JAMIE WHITBECK: And I had enough understanding and appreciation

of our two neighbors to know that this

is where part of that energy and attitude has to be,

and I want to be part of it.

SALLY WHITBECK: And I don't think the fact

that it was a group of gay people really had much--

Jamie just didn't think of it that way.

He was invited, which is positive.

And he just jumped in.

EVELYN BAILEY: So that first year that you were involved,

what did you do?

You ran around and put up posters.

JAMIE WHITBECK: We put up posters.

EVELYN BAILEY: And put posters in the bars.

SALLY WHITBECK: Yes, with Tom Krolak and--

JAMIE WHITBECK: That's right.

Tom Krolak.

And the guy lives in--

we don't see him much anymore, but he's out there

in Penfield in that apartment house out there.

And he's got an aunt that he takes care of.

EVELYN BAILEY: Oh, Ken.

Ken Setera?

JAMIE WHITBECK: Yes.

EVELYN BAILEY: Oh, OK.

Yes, and we knew him from church, too, probably.

JAMIE WHITBECK: So the links are there.

Sometimes you don't get them, and then you do get them.

So I'm sorry.

EVELYN BAILEY: So you passed out posters.

Was that your--

JAMIE WHITBECK: Then it came to the time

when we got to the point where yeah,

now we got to get the stuff we need to be in the theater.

And I'm a carry and hold kind of guy.

If you want to help, I'll--

EVELYN BAILEY: What theater did you--

what theater was the--?

JAMIE WHITBECK: Little Theater.

EVELYN BAILEY: First, right.

JAMIE WHITBECK: Yeah and it was-- the first theater--

the first show was in Little One.

And it was--

SALLY WHITBECK: Oh, and then the Dryden, too.

Wasn't closing night at the Dryden, and it sold out?

JAMIE WHITBECK: Yes.

Yes, that was right.

SALLY WHITBECK: Because there were people--

people from the Unitarian Church, at that point, came.

JAMIE WHITBECK: And some of them didn't make it

because the place was sold out.

500 and some seats.

SALLY WHITBECK: Yeah.

Yeah.

Jamie--

EVELYN BAILEY: Were you Secretary of the group?

JAMIE WHITBECK: That happened-- that happened next.

First year, year one, year two, year three.

At the end of year three, there was a--

SALLY WHITBECK: Difference of opinion, or different views.

JAMIE WHITBECK: We split from the GAGV.

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

JAMIE WHITBECK: And you probably know the mechanism of it.

EVELYN BAILEY: Well, you had to get your 501C3

status independently.

JAMIE WHITBECK: Yes.

EVELYN BAILEY: And you had to become a corporation.

JAMIE WHITBECK: That's right.

EVELYN BAILEY: Or at least an LLC.

SALLY WHITBECK: Right.

Well, I think from what we understood,

the GAGV ImageOut had done very well the first year

financially.

And so from what I understand, the GAGV,

when figuring out their budget for the next year,

figured that ImageOut would bring in about that much money,

maybe a little more.

I don't know.

And second year, they didn't do as well.

And I'm not sure about third.

But I think what it became was the artistic personalities

of ImageOut didn't want to be held

to a budget, where they had to earn

a specific amount of money.

They were much more interested in the artistic view.

So that's why they split from the Gay Alliance.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.

It was a financial concern.

SALLY WHITBECK: Yeah.

JAMIE WHITBECK: We had a meeting upstairs over a bar

just up from south of Main Street.

EVELYN BAILEY: Tara's?

JAMIE WHITBECK: Could have been.

SALLY WHITBECK: Could have been.

JAMIE WHITBECK: Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: Or Eroise?

JAMIE WHITBECK: No.

EVELYN BAILEY: Friar's?

JAMIE WHITBECK: On the first floor, the main floor,

where the bar was, there was a big nude statue of--

EVELYN BAILEY: The Liberty?

JAMIE WHITBECK: No, the--

EVELYN BAILEY: Marcella's?

SALLY WHITBECK: That could be.

That could be.

JAMIE WHITBECK: Underwater, sort of a water god kind of thing.

And we had-- there was a space upstairs,

and we sat around up there.

And Susan Soleil and a couple others

talked, and we got to the point where, OK, we'll do this.

And it was a couple of weeks later,

I'm in a house over off of Monterey avenue,

just up from under the Expressway.

And we sat around and tried to figure out what

we needed to do to do this.

And we got an accountant to one of the gay people.

And he did the kinds of things that needed to be done.

The legal.

SALLY WHITBECK: And Paul Mura did the legal.

JAMIE WHITBECK: Paul Mura did that, right.

SALLY WHITBECK: Yeah.

JAMIE WHITBECK: And so he got that set up for us,

and Angela Bonazinga, who was--

SALLY WHITBECK: Brighton librarian.

JAMIE WHITBECK: Well, yeah, but she was--

EVELYN BAILEY: Susan Soleil.

JAMIE WHITBECK: Susan's partner.

SALLY WHITBECK: Oh, right.

JAMIE WHITBECK: And Angela did a whole lot of accounting stuff

to make it happen, you know.

All of these things happened and we just sailed in.

EVELYN BAILEY: And you did become Secretary.

JAMIE WHITBECK: Yes, that's right.

EVELYN BAILEY: A board was created.

JAMIE WHITBECK: We had to have a board.

And as a consequence of being at that meeting,

OK, I'll be whatever you want, and I was the scribe, so.

Those are the things that I gave you a year ago,

or whatever it was.

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

Right.

JAMIE WHITBECK: It just went on from there.

EVELYN BAILEY: And you were secretary for three years?

JAMIE WHITBECK: Yeah, that was the--

SALLY WHITBECK: I think it was two.

I'm only thinking it wasn't the full period

because there was talk about letting new people in.

And so I think after--

I think Jamie did it maybe for two years,

because it seems to me that you gave up your seat earlier

than the three years so that new people could

come in to the board.

JAMIE WHITBECK: I won't argue with you

because it's a long time.

SALLY WHITBECK: And meanwhile, you were doing PR,

you know, a lot.

There wasn't a big volunteer group.

JAMIE WHITBECK: Yeah, we didn't have a big organization.

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

SALLY WHITBECK: So he did a lot.

He was even chair of a couple of committees--

JAMIE WHITBECK: Right.

SALLY WHITBECK: --for a few years in there, at least.

EVELYN BAILEY: Mm-hm.

SALLY WHITBECK: And would bring things home,

and we'd put the PR stuff together and send it out.