Audio Interview, Janice Epp, August 8, 1974
- BRUCE JEWELL: The Erotic Museum, San Francisco, California.
- Interview with Janice Epp.
- Janice, this museum is, I guess, the first museum
- of erotic art in the United States.
- JANICE EPP: Yes, in the world.
- BRUCE JEWELL: In the world.
- JANICE EPP: Um-hm.
- BRUCE JEWELL: It's clearly quite different than the kind
- of erotica that you see in most cities.
- What I've seen in the movie houses
- and the porny bookstores is all is all kind of depressing.
- This doesn't have that depressing, dehumanized feeling
- about it, seems to me.
- JANICE EPP: Right.
- The whole purpose of the museum, aside
- from the obvious enjoyment of seeing people making love,
- is to humanize to show that we are all sexual beings.
- We all have various basic feelings about us,
- and there's a great need now to take sex out
- of the area of dehumanization somewhat like you would
- see in the commercial films, commercial bookstores,
- and so on and so forth to put it back
- in the sphere of being a loving lifestyle and something that is
- very necessary for all of us.
- BRUCE JEWELL: I kind of I've often
- felt a bit like a little old lady in regards to pornography.
- I was telling you earlier the story of my going
- into a movie theater in Rochester and unaware
- that it was a pornographic film and fifteen minutes later
- getting up and demanding my money back,
- I was so put off by it.
- And I'm sometimes almost embarrassed
- to admit to an attitude like that
- because it seems so uncool.
- But I do have that feeling about most pornography,
- that there's definitely something about it which
- doesn't encompass my experience of sex and offends me somehow.
- JANICE EPP: Oh, I would say that that
- would be a normal reaction, because most
- of us through our lives, the experiences that we've
- had with sex have hopefully been very positive and loving.
- And certainly commercial pornography
- does not depict that side of sex that most of us
- associate it with.
- To associate sex with violence, with dehumanized feelings,
- just a sort of an automatic response
- is taking it back fifty years or one-hundred years.
- And we have to put the love back into it the communication
- and the feeling.
- BRUCE JEWELL: Could you tell me how this museum got its start?
- JANICE EPP: Yes.
- The museum is an educational function
- of Genesis Church and Ecumenical Center.
- And Genesis, as its name implied,
- is involved with beginnings.
- We have felt for a long time that most churches were
- neglecting two very important areas of human experience:
- art and sexuality.
- So the church was formed to bring sex education
- to the public and also, hopefully,
- to subsidize and help artists bring their work to everyone
- and take art out of the sphere of the wealthy,
- the upper classes.
- And the National Sex Forum, which
- is the major program of the church,
- was organized to facilitate sex education,
- to educate professionals people who are doing therapy, people
- who would have occasion to counsel
- people on sexual dysfunctiona.
- And the collection, the Kronhausen Collection
- which is the permanent collection of the museum,
- was bought from Doctors Phyllis and Eberhard Kronhausen, who
- are two psychologists who have done an awful lot of work
- in sex therapy and who spent the better part of twenty
- years amassing this collection in their travels
- all around the world.
- And the Kronhausen's staged two very successful exhibitions
- of a part of this collection in Sweden and Denmark,
- and it was received so well that they
- decided that Europeans really didn't need any more education.
- Europeans have a pretty good attitude towards sex,
- especially in Scandinavia.
- And they felt--
- BRUCE JEWELL: Yes.
- JANICE EPP: --both of them being Americans,
- they felt that America was really the place that
- needed this collection.
- So they came to the United States
- with the idea of giving the collection
- to one of the major museums.
- And all of the museums were approached,
- and for various reasons, mostly dealing
- with boards of directors who are notoriously conservative,
- there was not a museum at that time who felt that they could
- stage an exhibition of the art.
- So the Kronhausens came to San Francisco,
- feeling that San Francisco would be the city in the United
- States that would provide the best
- atmosphere for the collection.
- And by happy coincidence, the church
- was trying to make inroads in the areas of sex education
- and the arts, andm of course, the collection of erotic art
- combines both those areas.
- So we have bought the collection from the Kronhausens,
- and it is now permanently housed here in the museum,
- and is a major part of the church's educational programs.
- BRUCE JEWELL: The collection includes, really,
- some of the finest erotic art available, it seems to me.
- There's Japanese, Indian, Middle Eastern art, as well as Picasso
- and other big-name Western artists involved.
- So the whole level of the enterprise is unique.
- It's just very rare that you see anything like this.
- JANICE EPP: Right.
- BRUCE JEWELL: I remember out at the San Francisco
- out at the de Young, they had a Greek pot,
- and it had showed a man with an erection on it.
- And the pot had been carefully turned--
- JANICE EPP: Turned around.
- BRUCE JEWELL: --turned around and turned to the wall.
- JANICE EPP: Right.
- Right.
- Well, this has been the tradition in museums.
- Again, there is much fine erotic art available in the world
- because erotic art has been around for as long
- as man has been around as a valid expression.
- And it's always been in the realm of the upper classes,
- the privileged.
- And to bring to my way of thinking,
- to bring this very fine art to the people
- is revolutionary because of the fact
- that this is one of the last areas, the last frontiers,
- of democratization in the arts.
- The collection is the largest collection
- in the world of erotic art.
- The Japanese Collection alone, which
- really is the sort of flower of the collection,
- is the largest collection outside of Japan
- and is the only collection that's available for people
- to see.
- We have just masses of people from Japan
- who come here because they can't see this art in Japan.
- It's very heavily censored.
- And the scrolls that we have were done by Japan's greatest
- masters during their great Classical Period, 1600 to 1850.
- Quite a few of the Japanese masters,
- about forty percent of their work was erotic at that time.
- And so for the Japanese people to be able to come and see
- their Rembrandts, their Picassos, their Dalis, where
- they can't see it in Japan, it's really incredible.
- BRUCE JEWELL: I gather the Japanese have given a very
- enthusiastic reception to--
- JANICE EPP: Oh, yes, definitely.
- BRUCE JEWELL: --this.
- How has the reception been from the wider community?
- JANICE EPP: The reception has been amazing.
- In the year and a half that we've been open,
- I have yet to experience a negative feeling from anyone.
- When we first opened, our feeling
- was that mostly the people who came here
- would be, say, twenty to thirty, into an alternative lifestyle,
- that type of thing.
- And we were totally surprised to find
- that the average visitor to the museum
- is a couple man and a woman in their forties
- and fifties from, say, Iowa people who
- come to San Francisco and leave their hometown behind and want
- to have a unique experience in this city.
- And perhaps will because of the fact
- that they're not with their normal friends and their peers
- and they don't have to worry about keeping up appearances
- they will come to the museum as a part of the total experience
- of being in San Francisco.
- And the reaction has just been overwhelming.
- BRUCE JEWELL: Yeah, I was kind of delighted yesterday
- when I was here.
- There was a woman, I would say fifty, fifty-five years old,
- a rather matronly-looking woman, who was checking out some films
- and buying some books and taking them and using them
- in conjunction with some college course she was with.
- And it was really a it was good to see that.
- JANICE EPP: Definitely.
- BRUCE JEWELL: Sometimes older people
- aren't even supposed to be interested in sex.
- JANICE EPP: Right.
- BRUCE JEWELL: And I was happy--
- JANICE EPP: Yeah, this is the thing.
- BRUCE JEWELL: --to see this kind of response.
- JANICE EPP: Young people, although they come here
- obviously for enjoyment and education,
- have a lot going for them anyway.
- They've grown up in a different generation.
- There isn't the need to overcome certain attitudes.
- And so when people come here that are in their forties
- and fifties and open their minds and accept and enjoy this,
- to me, is really where the museum
- should be in terms of reaching out to people.
- And the fact that we've been able to reach
- a lot of these people just makes it all worthwhile.
- BRUCE JEWELL: You're also producing or distributing,
- I don't know which, films of various types
- of sexual lifestyles.
- Yesterday I saw two films, one was a young heterosexual couple
- at the beach, and the other was also a heterosexual couple,
- but the man was paraplegic.
- JANICE EPP: Right, right.
- BRUCE JEWELL: And they were both they were both erotic films,
- and I thought both very beautifully done.
- I didn't--
- JANICE EPP: Yeah, we produce and direct and distribute
- educational erotic films, as opposed to commercial films.
- These films are not released to the general public.
- They are released only to qualified professionals, anyone
- in the therapy fields or the education fields.
- The films--
- BRUCE JEWELL: That makes me a little sad in a way,
- because they're the only erotic films I've ever seen--
- JANICE EPP: That are human.
- BRUCE JEWELL: --that are human.
- JANICE EPP: Right.
- Right.
- BRUCE JEWELL: The people in them, I think,
- were having affectionate relationships with one another.
- And it was very it was just very human.
- It's sex as I think most people know it,
- at least I hope they know it that way.
- JANICE EPP: Right.
- Well, originally, the films were only shown to professionals.
- And a professional, for instance,
- could rent out the film and show it to a class or a group
- in a community center.
- We found the response to the films
- to be so positive that we decided
- that, under the auspices of the museum and the National Sex
- Forum, we would include daily film
- showings as a part of the museum experience.
- So now anyone who comes to the museum can see the films.
- They are produced for educational purposes.
- And since we are a nonprofit, they are not commercial.
- They are not shown for money, because then you
- get into a whole other sphere.
- Enough people are making commercial films.
- But it is rather sad, as you say,
- that everyone can't see these films.
- Although quite a lot more people than you would think
- have seen them because they're distributed all over the world.
- And anyone who would have an occasion
- to go to a community center or be involved in a sex education
- program or a therapy program would probably
- have seen one of our films.
- BRUCE JEWELL: You produced a gay film.
- Could you tell me the range of films you have produced?
- I believe I've seen the gay film in Rochester,
- as a matter of fact.
- JANICE EPP: The films deal with or just
- run a whole gamut of sexual experience and lifestyles.
- Everything from heterosexual couples
- to sex for people with physical dysfunctions, handicaps, so on,
- gay women, gay men, sex in the elderly we have films of people
- past sixty communicating with your children about sex,
- masturbation, massage, just everything
- that you can possibly think of.
- Quite a few of them are what we call pattern films, where
- we show a couple in their home, spending the day together,
- maybe cooking a meal and making love, walking on the beach.
- There are also panel discussion films
- dealing with various subjects.
- And some clinical, physiological films, also.
- BRUCE JEWELL: I think Dr. Reuben should come and see your films.
- JANICE EPP: As a matter of fact, Dr. Reuben was here.
- BRUCE JEWELL: Oh, was he really?
- JANICE EPP: About a month ago, yes.
- He came into the museum and was given a tour.
- It was kind of funny.
- His reaction to everything was, "Oh, I've seen that before."
- And so he sort of spent twenty minutes walking around.
- And I gathered that he was on a whirlwind tour of the city
- and came in and wasn't about to let on that there was anything
- that he didn't know about.
- BRUCE JEWELL: He's certainly grossly
- ignorant about homosexuals--
- JANICE EPP: Um-hm.
- BRUCE JEWELL: --while pretending great expertise.
- And I've heard similar complaints
- about certain aspects of his heterosexual--
- JANICE EPP: I would say that--
- BRUCE JEWELL: --descriptions.
- JANICE EPP: --my personal opinion
- is that he's grossly ignorant about everything sexual.
- BRUCE JEWELL: Yeah.
- JANICE EPP: This type of writing and this type of therapy
- is not really doing the world much good.
- It's scratching the surface and giving out
- a lot of misinformation.
- And like you say, I wish he had been
- able to see some of our films, but I
- suspect his attitude would have been,
- "I've seen all this before."
- BRUCE JEWELL: You have forums and so on.
- Do you get many professional people?
- This is of concern to me because I've, of course, heard
- doctors and psychiatrists and psychologists
- talking about homosexuality.
- And I don't know where they got their information,
- but they didn't they clearly were uninformed.
- They were clearly ignorant of their subject
- and presenting presenting themselves as experts.
- Do many are many professionals coming here for the kind of--
- JANICE EPP: Yes.
- BRUCE JEWELL: --education that you can offer?
- JANICE EPP: Originally, the courses and forums
- were open only to professionals, like the films.
- What has happened now is that the public response,
- if I can use the word "lay person,"
- has been so positive that we've now opened up
- the courses and forums to everyone.
- But I would say that 75 percent are professional people.
- This is where our main thrust is,
- because these are the people that we go to
- with our problems.
- And if they don't have the correct information,
- if they don't have open attitudes, then we're all lost.
- If I am, for instance, a gay woman with two children
- and have been married for ten years and suddenly realize that
- I cannot continue with the charade any longer,
- and I go to someone for therapy and their attitude is that,
- you know, you have a lovely home and two lovely children
- and a wonderful husband, and what's this about being
- attracted to women?
- I'm lost.
- There's no place to go.
- So the professional people have got to be educated.
- They have to be opened up to seeing
- things for what they are.
- That all lifestyles, if they're chosen by someone,
- as long as you're not hurting anyone else, they're valid.
- They're loving.
- They're just as intense and committed as any lifestyle is.
- And for someone to say that a homosexual relationship is not
- as valid and binding and loving as a heterosexual relationship
- is just taking us all back to the Stone Age.
- BRUCE JEWELL: Um-hm.
- You haven't had any really negative reactions
- from the public about this.
- JANICE EPP: No, not as far as I know.
- Now, obviously, people who come here,
- they see the sign on the door.
- They know what the museum's all about.
- So they have a certain attitude to begin with,
- but they may not know exactly what to expect.
- But when I walk around the museum
- and see couples of all ages chuckling and smiling
- and talking to each other and walking around and feeling very
- comfortable, it sort of bears out the fact that, you know,
- there have been no negative responses.
- It's pretty hard to be negative in a place like this.
- BRUCE JEWELL: Well, the whole environment
- is so strikingly different than the usual,
- let's say, bookstore that you walk into.
- It has an almost medicinal white all over the places,
- and there's some guy sitting elevated
- above the floor like some old-fashioned disciplinarian,
- I almost feel.
- And all the material is covered in cellophane and selling
- at fantastically (Janice laughs) inflated prices.
- And you have these the amazing thing to me
- is these sexual apparatus, these pink, semi-plastic gadgets
- laying around looking quite lonely there.
- And this doesn't have that feeling at all.
- JANICE EPP: No.
- BRUCE JEWELL: This isn't that kind of--
- JANICE EPP: No.
- We've tried to, and hopefully succeeded,
- in creating an atmosphere of comfort and acceptance
- and love and friendliness about the museum
- and all of our activities, so that people can come here
- to sort of get back to basics and get back to real feelings.
- And the message would be, if I could say anything about,
- you know to people when they come in is,
- come in and enjoy yourself and talk to us and come sit down
- and have a cup of coffee and just feel good.
- BRUCE JEWELL: Well, the art has something to do with that,
- I think.
- The Japanese art has a kind of joy about it.
- It's a gleeful presentation.
- The Indian art is very formal.
- I have that--
- JANICE EPP: Right, very stylized.
- BRUCE JEWELL: --strange feeling of formality,
- as if they were involved in some kind of exercise.
- But it's not there's no shame connected with it.
- JANICE EPP: Right, right.
- BRUCE JEWELL: And the Western art
- comes in many different styles and senses about it.
- JANICE EPP: Everything from deep, intense feelings
- to social satire and humor.
- BRUCE JEWELL: Right.
- JANICE EPP: The whole gamut of the artistic experience.
- BRUCE JEWELL: I noted that there's very little gay art.
- And my experience has been that I simply
- haven't found very much of it around that I would
- call worth putting on the wall.
- JANICE EPP: This has been something
- that we've been working on now for over a year is appealing
- to the gay community through various magazines and media.
- There is gay art around, but there are not
- yet enough artists who are committed enough
- to their lifestyle to go public.
- I would say that there are quite a few artists who have probably
- done things with a gay theme, but are not yet willing,
- for various reasons, to have them hung with their names
- on them.
- We have some gay art, and we have a lot more now
- than we did a year ago, because San Francisco has
- a large gay population, and people are beginning
- to come out a lot more here.
- But this has been a major concern of ours,
- that we would like to be able to represent everyone.
- And since our population here in San Francisco
- includes quite a large gay population,
- and all over the world there is quite a large gay population,
- we'd like to have a much bigger representation.
- And lately, in about the past three months,
- there have been a lot more artists coming in,
- a lot of straight artists, who do works with a gay theme.
- BRUCE JEWELL: Oh, really?
- JANICE EPP: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- BRUCE JEWELL: Lesbian scenes or--
- JANICE EPP: Yeah.
- Well, of course, there's always been, in terms
- of appealing to men, a lot of lesbian scenes done
- by straight, gay men.
- But that's not really very valid in terms of experience.
- But a lot of straight men have been
- doing art in which, as part of the portrayal,
- there are men together, as well as women and men
- with women and so on.
- So the barriers are breaking down.
- It takes time, like everything, the old cliche.
- But our hope is eventually to have at least twenty percent
- of the collection as being gay.
- BRUCE JEWELL: I have the feeling that you're looking forward
- to a different day than the one we now live in,
- that if you're educating people, you're educating them
- for something, for some goal.
- JANICE EPP: Right.
- BRUCE JEWELL: What do you look forward to?
- What would you like to see happening with this museum,
- with your educational enterprise, and with people?
- How would you like to relate, to be able to relate
- to people in that sphere?
- JANICE EPP: Well, speaking for myself,
- I would say that my hope would be that the museum would
- be a frontier and the beginning of a much larger movement,
- where people would begin to see each other again as people,
- all of us brothers and sisters.
- I think that when you liberate sexuality,
- when you stop censorship, when people begin
- to feel like people again, what can only naturally follow
- is less wars, less interest in corporate structures
- and dehumanization.
- And when people start making love and feeling
- love for each other, it's pretty hard to hate
- and it's pretty hard to kill.
- And this would be my hope, that this
- would be one small atom of a large movement that
- would hopefully, you know obviously,
- it's going to take time.
- But it's a start, however small a start, and it's moving.
- It's burgeoning.
- There are already galleries now that are beginning to accept
- erotic work that before didn't.
- There is a gallery now in New York City called the Erotic Art
- Gallery that opened about six or seven months after we opened,
- that was encouraged, obviously, by our work.
- And if this is beginning to happen,
- on however a small scale, I think
- that it'll just begin to pick up speed,
- and we may get somewhere.
- BRUCE JEWELL: I think your hopes are very much like mine.
- And I want to thank you for taking the time--
- JANICE EPP: Oh, you're welcome, you're welcome.
- BRUCE JEWELL: --for this interview.
- JANICE EPP: My pleasure.
- BRUCE JEWELL: And thank you for creating this museum.
- JANICE EPP: You're welcome.
- It's my pleasure.
- And I hope that some of the people
- in your part of the country get a chance
- to come out and visit with us.
- BRUCE JEWELL: Thank you.
- JANICE EPP: Um-hm.