Audio Interview, Joe Cimino, January 24, 2012

EVELYN BAILEY: Now, were you born in Rochester?

So you've been here all your life.

JOE CIMINO: All my life.

EVELYN BAILEY: Wow.

JOE CIMINO: Yeah, yeah.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, it's a great city.

It really is.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.

What was it like when you were growing up?

JOE CIMINO: Well actually, it was interesting,

because there were a lot of poor families,

but nobody knew they were poor.

And so we actually had a great time.

I went to Twenty-nine School.

It's the end of West Ave and Moraine Street.

A lot different than today.

We walked back and forth to school everyday

and you walked home for lunch and went back after lunch,

and it was eclectic.

EVELYN BAILEY: Ethnic?

JOE CIMINO: Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: Neighborhood

JOE CIMINO: Pardon?

EVELYN BAILEY: Ethnic neighborhood.

JOE CIMINO: Yeah, pretty much.

Pretty much.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Was it pretty much Italian or was it--

JOE CIMINO: Actually, it was a German, Irish, Italian, and

African American.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, because--

JOE CIMINO: It was the Bullshead area.

That was the Bullshead head.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.

Right.

JOE CIMINO: Yeah, I been growing up most of my-- well,

I had Italian friends, Irish friends--

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, my--

JOE CIMINO: --and my German friends.

KEVIN INDOVINO: --grew up over on McGee Avenue.

JOE CIMINO: Yeah, OK.

KEVIN INDOVINO: It was primarily Italian over there at the time.

JOE CIMINO: Yeah, if you got down more towards Lyle Avenue,

that's what it was.

I was closer to Dutchtown.

EVELYN BAILEY: OK.

JOE CIMINO: Colvin Street, that area.

EVELYN BAILEY: OK.

OK.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So, Joe, what we're trying to--

as Evelyn has probably already explained to you,

we're doing this documentary on the history

of the gay community in Rochester.

And what we're trying to get is a sense

of what Rochester was like, particularly for gay people,

in the 1960s.

If you're familiar with the 1969 Stonewall Riots that

happened in New York City, everything changed after that.

A lot of gay activism came about.

Not only New York City, but right here in Rochester.

Which started up in the early '70s

and is carried through to today.

But before 1969, we're trying to get a sense of what

was happening out there.

You know, the stories that we're hearing

is that it wasn't always an easy time for them.

Particularly when they're--

JOE CIMINO: No.

KEVIN INDOVINO: --going out to the bars, and stuff like that.

JOE CIMINO: No.

And that was the time, I don't think I ever--

when I first went on the job, we paid like special attention

to certain areas to make sure that the gays weren't

taken advantage of.

And the reason I say that is we had a couple of gay bars

on Front Street, which I explained I walked to my dog

at the time.

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Do you remember the names?

JOE CIMINO: I think one place was Ma Martins, that was

or the lesbian ladies.

And the other place was Dick's club.

And that was the males.

And actually, to be perfectly honest with you,

Front Street was a thriving place.

And we had Pete and Jim's International Bar

at Elmwood Ave, Louey Jacobson, the Meat Market, the clothing

store.

So it was really a pretty thriving area.

That was before everything was taken down.

And they kept mostly to themselves.

There was no problems.

The only time we had an issue was, like I say,

there was an old-time police sergeant

and he used to park his car there quite a bit.

It would pick up on gangs of guys

just driving in and then trying to walk in the place

and they would be quick enough to check them out and say

what's your business here.

And kind of move on.

The only other problem we had with some gays, the men,

was they would solicit on the Broad Street Bridge,

and I think at that time it was the library.

So I remember they sent details in there

to kind of move them out.

And anybody that looked suspicious, or any car

loads of guys, or anything that puts people on the bridge,

it was the same thing.

Tag them away.

They were-- they were-- they were targets.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.

Can you share with me the sentiment

at the time from the police department's point of view?

I mean, was it merely just kind of keeping an eye on them

and making sure people kind of move along?

Or was there more of that sense of trying to kind of control

this particular community.

Or--

JOE CIMINO: It wasn't a matter of control.

It was a matter-- it was a --

I mean, the way I looked at it, and I did work the vice squad

for quite a few years there.

It was a matter of I think if we had complaints--

and I remember at that time some of the complaints

were ladies walking with their children.

Zulu Road trying to get the park.

And there would be guys walking through the woods

and pitching other guys.

The neighbors there got upset.

So we wound up putting details there.

I think it's only when it got to the public's attention

that it became an issue.

And the issue was caused by gay people

simply because they were doing things out in the open that

were irritating people.

And there was more of them trying to keep peace.

I mean, they had their lifestyle.

And, to be honest with you, if that's your lifestyle,

that's your lifestyle.

I mean, who am I to judge?

On the other hand, if you take it public

and interfere with people that don't

want be part of your lifestyle, that's when the issues started.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So let's just talk a little bit more

about Front Street.

Tell me a little bit more.

What was Front Street like?

I mean, I-- some stuff I've done at WXXI

I know a little bit about it.

In it's early days, it was almost really almost

like Rochester's little red light district at some point.

JOE CIMINO: Well, you know what?

It was not really because it didn't have prostitution for--

women for guys.

It was an element that kept to themselves.

And, yeah, I guess if you had gay tendencies,

you would go to the--

if you're a male, you go to the male bar, and if you're a lady,

you go the the lady's bar.

KEVIN INDOVINO: But actually, want

I wanted to get from you first is describe for me

what it was like just walking down Front Street.

You know, what was the atmosphere like?

What were the buildings like?

What were the kind of things that you were seeing?

You know--

JOE CIMINO: Well, in '59, in '59,

it was kind of like approaching the end of Front Street.

Because they were remodeling the city at the time.

And the town plaza was in and everything

was moving up to the Eastend.

And Candem.

The biggest problem-- you're going to laugh,

but the biggest problem we had on Front Street

was alcoholics and social security.

They were just down the other end.

Like Pete and Jim's bar.

I think at the time, although I could not substantiate it,

I think the owners of Pete and Jim's may

have had a relationship with most of them

that, I'll cash your social security check,

you got so much to drink, when that runs out,

you're out of here.

And then they had a men's shelter

down the end of the street there.

And when they would be really passed out,

the guys that worked the wagon would pick them up

off the street and bring them in there to the shelter.

Sometimes we had to call it the sunrise

and then we'd have to bring them downtown for intoxication.

Put them in a cell block, sober up the next morning,

and they would be released.

But as far as violent thing, no.

I think was probably more business going on

in the street, between the clothing shops and the meat

markets, than anything else.

I remember Louie Jacobson's meat market there.

He was probably one of the major suppliers in the area.

B&G's clothing shop, I think every kid in high school

bought their peg pants there.

Peg pants were in at the time and I

think just about everybody out their peg pants there.

That was the place to go.

And zoot suits, and all that kind of stuff.

So it was a thriving area in that sense.

EVELYN BAILEY: Were there hotels?

Or--

JOE CIMINO: No, there was nothing on Front--

that was just shops.

Just shops.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So did you find it unusual

that amongst all this retail and the butcher shops,

and all that, there was also these gay bars?

JOE CIMINO: But it was--

KEVIN INDOVINO: Did they stand out?

JOE CIMINO: That's the that's the ironic part.

Days were totally different than nights.

Days, it was strictly business down there.

Nights, it was the two gay bars and Pete's and Jim's.

And all three elements kind of kept to themselves.

And we walked the beat and actually we

were new with the canine at the time,

and we walked the beats just to make sure no troublemakers came

in there.

He had-- oh, it was a chicken BBQ place there

that the policeman used to stop at and have coffee

now and then.

And a lot of people came there at night.

But there again, they never intermingled.

And I think most of that was because there was a police

presence.

If we had problems downtown at all

and I remember with the vice squad,

it was because there were some transvestites posing as women,

soliciting men down-- and there was more towards Ormand,

Clinton Avenue in that area.

The parks, and the library, and Broad Street Bridge at the time

were active places for solicitation.

And was hit and miss because you'd be detailed there

for a while, and you try to find these guys wandering

through the woods.

And that was it.

Then you just identify them.

Ask them for identification and ask them to leave the area.

And most of them realized it wasn't the thing

to do at that point.

And they would leave.

I don't recall any of them being uncooperative or nasty

about it.

The lesbian portion of it, they really

kept mostly to themselves.

We had Ma's Place, and I think we had the Blue Chip.

And then and Allen Street.

There was another place on Allen Street there.

That was on Brown Street.

Allen Street was another place in there.

Allen House or something like that.

It was an entertaining place.

That one had entertainment and music.

Actually both did.

I think there was a place on Monroe Avenue at the time.

It might be Woody's now.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, that would have been Friar's.

That would have been.

EVELYN BAILEY: That would have been later.

JOE CIMINO: Friar's--

KEVIN INDOVINO: A little bit later.

That would have been in late '70s or early '80s.

JOE CIMINO: Yeah, yeah.

Before Friar's, what was it.

Do you know?

KEVIN INDOVINO: Geez, I don't know.

JOE CIMINO: You're right, then.

Later it was Friar's.

Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: There was the Ratskellar.

JOE CIMINO: Yeah, and I'm not familiar with that.

Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: That was later then.

JOE CIMINO: Yeah.

Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: Was there any drugs?

JOE CIMINO: You know what?

That's the ironic part of it.

No.

There was no big thing with drugs.

EVELYN BAILEY: Really?

JOE CIMINO: Honest to God.

As a matter of fact, I was on a narcotics squad in '60.

If we got a small bag of marijuana,

that was a big arrest.

That was a big arrest.

And I think we probably made one of the big heroin last

at the time.

And that one had to be '62 or '63.

And that was actually a Hispanic operation.

Had nothing to do with gay people.

They were into themselves.

And it was a community in them--

on their own.

And Really I could never say they were troublemakers.

I can never say they were a crime element.

As a matter of fact, they were most often very cooperative

if we had an issue or a problem.

So I can't--

KEVIN INDOVINO: Could you tell me a little bit about--

let's step away from Front Street a little bit,

because there were some other places around town--

JOE CIMINO: Yeah.

KEVIN INDOVINO: --that have come up in our conversations

with other people.

There was like the Oasis Hotel or the Oasis Club.

And the Manger Hotel and--

JOE CIMINO: The Manger Hotel--

KEVIN INDOVINO: --places like that.

JOE CIMINO: Yeah.

We never had a problems there with them.

They were--

KEVIN INDOVINO: Reportedly, like the Oasis

had a secret room where--

JOE CIMINO: Oh, now that-- that I wouldn't know about.

If it is was a secret, it was a pretty good secret.

KEVIN INDOVINO: --and women could dance with women,

because back then same sex couples dancing together was--

you could've been arrested.

JOE CIMINO: Yeah, I-- you know what?

Now you mentioned that I got to be--

that does recall one other thing and where they could do things

probably a little more public at that time was on Halloween,

they were dressed in costumes and dancing.

But that, again, and I didn't know

about any these secret rooms are anything,

but had heard that they put shows on for themselves

and stuff like that, but--

no, I think mostly our biggest problem at the time

was kind of keeping an eye on the areas.

Because you had high school thugs

that wanted to go down and kick the crap out of this guy,

and kick the crap out of that guy.

Rochester was always significant in keeping that out of the box.

They were very good.

The police department, if there was a detail there,

you were on that detail and you made sure.

So a gang of a lot of kids, and you pull up right behind

and start checking out their plate numbers and everything

else, and they would pfft, disappear.

So as far as roughing any of them up or anything like that,

I don't recall too much of that.

If there was an issue, we were alerted to it and were on it.

And at the time, right after I got promoted to Sergeant,

I was in charge of the tactical unit.

And we moved around the downtown area.

And we had the dogs on those streets in the area.

And pretty well controlled.

Although I will say, when I was on patrol did

get a couple of calls to a couple of different houses.

And I remember one was down off of St. Paul Street,

where if they got fighting among themselves,

it got pretty nasty.

And I'll be honest with you, Evelyn, if I--

I would rather fight with a guy than fight with a woman.

(laughs) And I mean this only because first the purse comes

flying at you, then the ashtray.

Then the shoes. (laughs) I mean, it's kind of you're

ducking trying to control the situation.

But when they got mad at each other,

it was more separate them and calm the situation,

and get out of there and let it go.

But other than that, I can say I think Rochester's always

been a good area.

I mean, at least an area where they're not

pummeled, and beaten up, and robbed on a continual basis

like you hear about in some of these-- now some of these TV

shows I think are way out.

But you see that and maybe it does happen in another city.

I think Rochester's been pretty well secured in that area.

KEVIN INDOVINO: It's not that it hasn't happened,

but it doesn't happen as often.

JOE CIMINO: Right.

Exactly.

Exactly.

I mean, we've had--

I'm sure we've had some issues out there.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Let me ask you a question,

and it's going to be a little bit sensitive for you

for the position that you're in.

But some of the discussions that we've

had with people who were out at these bars in the '60s

and '70s.

I mean, they do talk about police

coming and raiding the bars.

Or police details recording people's license

plates parked in the parking lot,

and doing background checks on them.

Is that correct?

JOE CIMINO: That would be that would be true

if we had complaints that they were soliciting

or something like that.

Usually what happens is you get to know your area pretty good.

And if you see strange cars coming in--

a lot of this happened after, if you recall

the Kodak guy that was slain?

What was her name?

Black girl and a transvestite.

Duval.

They killed the guy behind Nick Tahou's.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, I didn't know about this one.

JOE CIMINO: Yeah.

A lot of this happened--

Betty Tyson.

Betty Tyson and Duval were the two people supposedly involved

in that homicide.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Right.

Right.

JOE CIMINO: OK?

KEVIN INDOVINO: Right.

Yes.

JOE CIMINO: Right.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yes.

JOE CIMINO: Now--

KEVIN INDOVINO: Was that mid '80s?

JOE CIMINO: It could have been.

But if we had incidents of that nature,

and I'm going back even to the '70s,

well, if we had any incident that even reeked of something

like that, deal was to go out, put some pressure on, and start

taking license plate numbers.

OK?

And a lot of times, you took the license plate number just

in case anything happened later.

There was a crime committed or something and that person

was injured, or the owner of that vehicle

was molested or something, or robbed, or mugged, or whatever.

He had something to work with, where he was,

where the incident started.

And that was about it And it wasn't coming in

and shaking anybody down.

I was just saying it was a matter of do you have business

here?

Are you here for the wrong reason?

Are you here for the right reason?

And at that time we-- yes.

There was a lot of that.

There was a lot.

I shouldn't say a lot, but if it was a detail, it was a detail.

A lot of times we were sent up to Durand Eastman Park.

And you remember the Smoyer-King killing and the Pamela Moss

killing, and all that.

We were sent up to Durand Eastman Park because

of the complaints there.

And if there were cars parked and vacant along the road

and guys in the woods, they would take all the plate

numbers.

As soon as they saw taking plate numbers, shoo,

everybody would disappear.

Usually nothing ever happened with the plate number. (laughs)

But the thing was, it was a way of preventing

a crime from happening.

I mean, let's face it, if you're in the wrong place

and see someone taking your plate number,

you get in your car and leave.

And that's mostly what it was.

But there was a way of gathering intelligence

if you saw the same plate number of different places

that were suspicious and say what's this person up to?

Something going on we don't know about.

Maybe we check him out a little further.

But a lot of that was more preventive patrol

than anything else.

And the thing is, you don't want--

a mugging can turn nasty.

A mugging of a homosexual can turn nasty and wind up

a homicide.

That was another reason for checking things out.

It was a protective measure both ways.

Some people don't see it that way.

You're harassing us.

Well, OK, we have to take that.

But on the other hand, if anything happens to you,

that's all we've got to work with.

So it kind of worked both ways.

I can't think of any other places other than that.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, in the '70s,

there was a place called Jim's over on North Street.

Do you remember that at all?

JOE CIMINO: Not really.

Jim's?

KEVIN INDOVINO: It was Jim's.

Yeah.

There was the Forum that was Main and Goodman.

North Goodman.

JOE CIMINO: No, I don't recall that.

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.

JOE CIMINO: I didn't work that area too much.

But Jim's on St. Paul Street.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Not St. Paul.

On North Street.

EVELYN BAILEY: North Street.

JOE CIMINO: North Street.

Was that near where Catelli's was at the time?

KEVIN INDOVINO: I don't know, but--

EVELYN BAILEY: It originally where

Bausch + Lomb headquarters are.

Now.

Across from Washington Street Park.

That was the first time Jim's opened.

Then it moved to North Street.

JOE CIMINO: Oh, OK.

EVELYN BAILEY: But--

JOE CIMINO: What year was that?

KEVIN INDOVINO: That would have been in the '70s.

Right?

EVELYN BAILEY: In the '70s.

JOE CIMINO: Yeah, I think--

EVELYN BAILEY: I want to say, '74, '75.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, Up until I think late '80s.

EVELYN BAILEY: And the Bachelor Forum was in '73.

JOE CIMINO: Oh, you filling me in on some places I never knew

existed.

Was there are a secret society or come on now. ((laughs)

KEVIN INDOVINO: No, Let me tell you this.

That there was a point in the '80s--

I didn't come out until the 1980s, late '80s--

but at the point that I came around '87,

there was fifteen gay bars that you could count in the city.

JOE CIMINO: There was a society out there

that was pretty active.

But if there was fifteen, and I was still

on the job at that time.

And I got to say, that was a pretty well controlled

community and I don't think we had any big--

because I don't recall any major crimes at that time with gays.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, there was the murder of Martha, right?

EVELYN BAILEY: Martha Gruttadauria.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Gruttaduaria?

JOE CIMINO: Mike?

EVELYN BAILEY: Martha.

JOE CIMINO: Oh, Martha.

Was that gay?

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.

JOE CIMINO: Were they gay suspects--

KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, she was the sister who owned Dick's.

Right?

EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.

JOE CIMINO: Yeah, that was the Dick's that was on Front Street

originally.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Right.

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

JOE CIMINO: And then they moved up there

on Clinton Avenue, Dick and Martha.

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

JOE CIMINO: They were both great people.

I mean, they fed a lot of people up there that were really--

EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.

JOE CIMINO: I remember Dick.

I mean he was--

EVELYN BAILEY: She was killed.

JOE CIMINO: Yeah, I remember that--

EVELYN BAILEY: In the bar.

JOE CIMINO: --now.

Yeah, and then there was a fire in that place after that,

wasn't there?

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

JOE CIMINO: Yeah.

And I remember she was--

I always thought they were both nice people,

because they helped out a lot of people in that area.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Because actually they were straight, right?

EVELYN BAILEY: Yes, they were a straight couple.

JOE CIMINO: Oh, yeah, they were.

They did-- you know what?

To them it was a business.

But they protected their customers.

Even on Front Street, they always

protected their customers.

Which I thought was very admirable.

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

JOE CIMINO: I mean--

EVELYN BAILEY: But the element that

seemed to be involved in that murder was mafia.

JOE CIMINO: Mafia?

EVELYN BAILEY: Mafia.

JOE CIMINO: You're kidding?

EVELYN BAILEY: No.

JOE CIMINO: See, I never--

EVELYN BAILEY: Which was going to be my next question,

because I had a friend who was involved,

or a member of the family, Rochester,

who will be driven to school in a Cadillac,

and picked up in the Cadillac.

And she was gay, but she didn't really break out of the family

until much later.

And it was typical for the mafia to exact protection from--

we'll protect your establishment, pay us.

You know?

The payolla thing.

JOE CIMINO: You know what?

I worked-- I worked--

EVELYN BAILEY: And in New York City,

the police were on the take for protecting gay bars.

JOE CIMINO: Well, see, I don't know--

I don't know that.

But one thing I do know about is Rochester.

I worked-- I worked organized crime for quite a few years.

I don't know where that story comes from.

But we never did any of that.

There was no protecting gay bars.

Because they really didn't need any protection there,

because they were-- if you say protection,

police patrolling it is one thing.

But I don't-- I think the thing with Dick and Martha with more

robbery than anything else.

I mean, I don't think there was a payoff or a mafia thing,

because they had nothing to offer the mafia.

I mean, they were just a legitimate restaurant

that ran their own business.

And I don't--

I really disagree with that.

If anything, if anything, I think there was more

of a set-up robbery, because god,

Dick had more friends on both sides of the community--

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

JOE CIMINO: --that-- no, I really disagree with that.

As a matter of fact, I don't know of anybody that--

you know you talk about driving a Cadillac.

I drive a Cadillac. (laughs) Not a new one, a used one, but--

we also had a police office that also used deliver newspapers

in the morning.

His dream was always to buy a Cadillac.

And he bought one.

And then he used to deliver after we get done.

A lot of guys, at the time we were working--

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

JOE CIMINO: --part-time guy.

The pay wasn't that great.

He used to deliver newspapers.

You know how many times they took his plate number, figuring

there must be some kind of organized crime scam going on

because he drives a Cadillac, and he's

trying to bring his papers off. (laughs)

But there was a kind of mentality maybe at the time.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

Yeah.

JOE CIMINO: But I don't recall--

Worked a lot of the crime families.

I don't recall any of them having

a gay member that used to be escorted to school and back.

I mean maybe they would drop your kid off and come

back and pick them up, but that's not unusual.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

JOE CIMINO: But not for the protection.

If you're going to do something to a gay person ,

you're going to do it when they're not there.

Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

JOE CIMINO: Yeah.

I don't-- you know, I don't think it was ever--

KEVIN INDOVINO: Do you know what year she was murdered?

Was it '70s or '80s?

EVELYN BAILEY: '80s.

KEVIN INDOVINO: It was the '80s.

JOE CIMINO: Who was that?

EVELYN BAILEY: Martha.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Martha.

EVELYN BAILEY: Martha was--

and what I'll do is I'll send you The Empty Closet article.

JOE CIMINO: Mm-hm.

OK.

EVELYN BAILEY: Articles.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: Because yes, they were very gay friendly.

The community was in there all the time.

Martha was a great, great person.

JOE CIMINO: Yeah.

Well, Dick had died by that time, didn't he?

EVELYN BAILEY: I think so.

JOE CIMINO: She was alone.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.

JOE CIMINO: Yeah, OK.

And I remember that now.

EVELYN BAILEY: And she really took care of the community.

JOE CIMINO: Yes, she did.

Yes she did.

EVELYN BAILEY: I mean, she would on Thanksgiving

have a huge Thanksgiving dinner.

JOE CIMINO: Yes.

Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: And invite anyone and everyone in.

JOE CIMINO: That's right.

EVELYN BAILEY: It really--

that bar was really a pillar for the community.

JOE CIMINO: Oh, I believe that.

I can believe that.

EVELYN BAILEY: But there was a connection I'm pretty sure.

There was a connection between Dick's 43 and organized crime.

If only by relationship within family, you know?

And that kind of connection.

I also know that the police--

some policemen would come into Jim's, and they

would raid Jim's, and then the charges were

poor lighting against the bar.

Against the owner.

Poor lighting in the establishment.

JOE CIMINO: Oh, yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: Jim's had a back room

also, it was not a secret back room,

but they had dancing in that back room.

JOE CIMINO: OK, they would dance with each other?

EVELYN BAILEY: And if they danced with each other,

Jim had a window, (Cimino laughs)

you could see the police coming.

And someone would notify the DJ or whoever.

The music would stop.

The guys would stop dancing.

And they--

JOE CIMINO: That was kind of like the buzzer

for the gambling places.

Oh, no.

The police are coming.

Here put--

EVELYN BAILEY: Pretty much.

JOE CIMINO: OK.

EVELYN BAILEY: And Whitey LeBlanc,

who was first president of the Gay Alliance

was in Jim's the night, one night when they were raided.

He was the one who blew the whistle

and told the DJ to cut the music.

Well, he was detained later than all of the other people.

The other people were let go, and Whitey he was detained.

And the detective in charge said, you're

the one who blew the whistle.

You are the troublemaker.

They eventually let him go, but--

JOE CIMINO: Most often--

let me interject something here.

Most often, and I've got to say 99 percent of the time,

whenever there was an entrance in any one of those places

by the police, most often it was a complaint

by a patron that got scorned, burned, or something.

And they would say, they're doing this,

they are doing that, and we know it's against the law,

and you have to go in there and do something about it.

So the poor lighting, yeah.

The ABC laws say you must be able to read number 12 print

newspaper inside there.

State laws, and ABC laws, at the time said you cannot have any

placard blocking your window.

And those were the laws they had to work with at the time.

And if you didn't have an entertainment license,

you were violation.

But you will find that if they ever really do

come out with a truth on those incidents

you'll find that most often it was a scorned individual that

came up with the complaint anonymously.

We had anonymous complaints I remember on certain places

down there where a person would say there's

a man with a gun inside.

And we'd always send three or four cars down.

And the owner would, say yeah, so and so,

we threw him out last a week.

You know.

And a lot of times, that's what it was.

It was jealousy.

Guy broke up with another guy, he's

got a new significant other.

And the scorned lover comes in with all kinds of complaints.

And we would have that.

But the (unintelligible) is if you didn't do something,

well, then the police aren't doing their job.

If you did something, the police are harassing us.

It's kind of like a catch-22.

So all they had to work with at that time.

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

JOE CIMINO: If you recall, and I know exactly what you're

talking about, about poor lighting, and windows,

and stuff, that's exactly what it was.

Those were ABC laws they had to work with at the time.

And you couldn't have it--

the window couldn't be any smaller than a four

by four that you could look through from the street.

I mean, you look into some of the ABC laws at that time,

you'll find that.

It was a tough era, but a lot of those

were lover's quarrels that we wound up

in the middle of that you didn't want any part of.

KEVIN INDOVINO: You know, and that's

why it's important for us to speak to people like you

as well, because we got one side of the story.

JOE CIMINO: Yeah.

KEVIN INDOVINO: But there's always that other side.

JOE CIMINO: Yeah.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So that, you know--

JOE CIMINO: There was two sides to every story.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Right.

Exactly.

JOE CIMINO: But usually after that was done, I mean,

you know, it was like OK, I got even with you, buddy. (laughs)

But I know, like I say, those were the only laws on the books

that we could work with.

And if they made a complaint, then you

had to go down and do something.

Sometimes it was just parking enforcement.

I mean, if they had no parking in the area,

or people parking all over the street,

then we'd used to just start tagging the illegal cars.

And you don't want to do those things

and knock any business out of business.

Because, let's face it, that's their livelihood.

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

JOE CIMINO: But I mean it was usually a way for a lover

to get back at somebody.

And then we wind up in the middle of it.

So you do a little enforcement and then it eases off.

But I've got to say honestly most of the time

if we had an issue down there, and we had to talk to somebody,

we always seem to have a connection there, OK.

What really went on?

OK.

They give us the real story.

It may never come out in the issue,

but at least we knew what was going on behind it.

Because there were a lot of great people in there.

A lot of great business people in there

that we all knew locally.

And you know?

Good people.

But like I say, we were in a catch-22.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

JOE CIMINO: Which was tough.

Which was tough.

(to someone else) Hey!

KEVIN INDOVINO: I don't have anything else.

Do you?

EVELYN BAILEY: I have a couple more.

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.

EVELYN BAILEY: How-- after the incident at Jim's

that I mentioned.

Whitey went back to the Gay Liberation Front at the U of R,

and they organized in action at the top of the plaza.

JOE CIMINO: OK.

EVELYN BAILEY: Now, the stories that we've heard were--

gay time is like way later than anyone else's time. (laughs)

If it's an eight o'clock party, you're

not going get there until ten.

JOE CIMINO: Oh, OK.

EVELYN BAILEY: They, a group of lesbians and gay men,

went to the top of the plaza as couples.

JOE CIMINO: OK.

EVELYN BAILEY: Heterosexual couples.

JOE CIMINO: Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: And they sat at different tables,

and then they got to dance, and then at someone's signal,

they changed partners and all began dancing--

JOE CIMINO: With each other.

EVELYN BAILEY: --people of the same sex.

JOE CIMINO: With their significant others.

Or whatever, yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: There was--

the story I have been told most often

is the police knew there was something going

to happen but they arrived two hours, three hours,

before the gay people.

So they came in, and looked around, so nothing, and left.

And then there would not have been

any problem with the management either,

because they didn't come out on the dance floor and stop this.

It was only when one of the group

started passing out information on the Gay Liberation Front,

that they were asking then to leave.

But does the police department keep

a record of every request or every time they go out, or--

JOE CIMINO: Well, there will be a record of the calls,

now after so many years there is nothing to it.

But a typical case like that, if I

go back to when I was on the job, a couple of things

might have happened there.