Audio Interview, Joe Termotto, July 19, 2012

(laughter)

EVELYN BAILEY: Now we are.

JOE TERMOTTO: And in school, they'd make fun of you

if somebody was feminine or something like that.

So you knew enough to keep all this--

then, so what this one, a couple times in high school

we still hung around together, we had sex.

But it was not hot sex, you know,

it was just getting off sex.

And then when I worked, I had a steady girlfriend.

And then when I went in service, Germany and Munich

had a tremendous amount of prostitutes

because you know it was '51 and they were poor and, you know,

a lot of people.

And so I got fixed up a couple of times.

And of course, they wouldn't accept money.

But they have a little boy who needs a new pair of shoes

and they cost thirty dollars for the shoes.

And so then when I came home, I went to school

and I went out with three or four girls, you know, steady.

And it was, let's say, heavy petting, but not sex.

I mean no intercourse, everything but intercourse.

So then I met somebody.

OK, I went to St. Mary's to take anesthesia school in '58.

And a buddy of mine came back and said,

there's a girl in the lab, there,

who's paying twenty-five dollars a pint for blood

for-- they had a leukemic grant from Washington.

And so, he said let's go and see if she'll

take our blood because as students back in 1958,

twenty-five dollars wasn't too bad.

So in the back, if I had any homosexual feelings,

you know, I'd see a handsome guy and I'd sort of,

inside, say, boy, is that nice.

But, you know, I had never been to a gay bar,

I didn't know about that.

So then, this girl who drew the blood.

We went over and saw her and we were a little bit fresh.

The guy I was with, he just died-- he was a wonderful guy.

You know, he said, we're here to take--

we want to sell our blood.

And she said, well, the money is all used up

and, you know, I had twenty people

and she got us out of her lab.

But about two weeks later, he stopped, went by,

and she called him and said they need more.

And she got a grant and she said,

I'd be very happy to take you and your friend.

That friend was me.

So we went over, she drew our blood

and she said the first month.

And I said, well, when I get the check, we'll go out to dinner.

There's a place on Scottsville Road that had good steaks.

But I never got to it.

So the next time she drew blood, I said that.

And she said, you said that last time.

So we started dating and, you know,

she was a very nice Mercy girl and it was recorded

at the college in Pennsylvania.

And she was a little older than I was.

So we talked about and we got married on September

the 20th, 1958.

We got engaged on the first day of summer

and we got married on the last day, September 20th.

Now, we were together several years.

But there was one problem and the problem

was certain that the rocks were not in the bed.

You know, sexually we had a satisfactory sex life.

But she was a type of person--

she had a father who was a builder, an Irishman.

I'm not trying to get any feelings.

But this Irishman, he was a builder and he had eight kids,

she had eight siblings.

But he loved to go out and play cards and drink

with his friends and so the wife had

to stay home and raise the kids.

So she was determined that when she got married, that she

was going to put the finger on.

So once we got married, I went to the auto show

one night with somebody and, you know, I get the stuff,

you're married now, you can't you know.

And so then, pregnancy came and she

wanted very much to have a kid.

So we weren't able to take in the temperatures,

we weren't able to--

you know, when you ovulate so she went and got tested.

I went, nothing was wrong.

So every month, before the menses,

she would be three or four days late.

And then she would get it and then she'd break down and cry

and it was very tough.

And we found out later that she had a borderline thyroid

deficiency.

Her T3 uptake test, but they hadn't invented

that until we broke up.

So things got very bad and I was very unhappy.

And I say unhappy because I had somebody that--

you know, I never valued my freedom until I lost it.

And you're getting my side of the story,

she's from a really nice family, nice siblings, everything.

But she was tough.

You know, because she didn't want to marry somebody the way

her father was.

And she didn't get along well with my mother,

which my mother was a widow.

My father died in '37.

And she died in 1980.

So, you know, I was responsible a good deal of her care

and they didn't seem to hit it off.

She tried to be, you know.

So then somehow I discovered that, you know--

I started driving around.

I drove around--

EVELYN BAILEY: When did you get divorced?

JOE TERMOTTO: '65.

EVELYN BAILEY: OK.

JOE TERMOTTO: I have a hot date at 8 o'clock,

so I want to hurry up.

(laughter)

KEVIN INDOVINO: I have a hot date at 5:45 so

speed it up even more--

JOE TERMOTTO: There's a poor guy!

So the thing is we got separated in '62.

And we just didn't--

and, you know, she tried hard and she wanted a kid so bad.

But you even tense up.

You go into tubal spasm.

I mean, you want to get pregnant and all of a sudden,

you can't get pregnant, psychologically.

And she became-- and she was she was tough.

You know, she'd tell me to do something

and she'd say, don't question me, just do what I say.

And that a couple of times, didn't set too well with me.

But we did and we had acceptable and good relations.

So then I discovered the homosexual.

I met this one person in '62.

I was supposed to meet him at Martha's on Stone Street.

You know, and Martha's is behind The National Clothing Company.

You don't know Martha's, do you?

KEVIN INDOVINO: I know of it from many people.

But, no.

It was before my time.

JOE TERMOTTO: So Martha's.

And I went in one night and I was so scared.

I was supposed to meet this person there.

And there was a crowded jukebox, you know,

and I was afraid I was going to be seen.

So I wasn't.

And then slowly we separated.

And in October-- no, September, you know,

we just decided to have a separation, not a divorce.

And October 9th of '62, I went to the bar one night by myself

and there was nobody there, Monday night.

Me and another person.

But I had been to Toronto that weekend,

so I was telling this other person about what

a nice weekend I had.

And this guy-- the guy that I was married to for thirty-eight

and a half years, the one who died--

he came in, he was going to RIT night school.

And he's very shy.

But he overheard me talking to the guy about Toronto.

So when he moved up to the jukebox, he moved back

and he said, excuse me.

Did I hear say--

so he said, I was up there the week before.

So right away, we--

this was Monday and Friday he had some people coming in,

his parents were going away.

He had some people coming in from Toronto.

I don't know if I'm telling you--

so I went to the bar.

He told me to come to the bar and so, they

were going out to Dr. Henshaw.

And he was chief of surgery at General,

he lived out on Quaker Road in Scottsville.

And his friend, George Sedor, do you know George Sedor,

he was one of the only--

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.

JOE TERMOTTO: George arranged that Joe could bring the three.

Three guys came, but one was an airline steward

and he liked Joe because he had met him

at a party in Toronto the week before.

So they went out to Dr. Henshaw's house-- ranch house.

They had dinner then they went to the bar.

So I went in there and he said, oh, I'm glad you came.

So I said, did your friend come?

And he introduced me.

They were going to have coffee and doughnuts and food

after the bar closed.

So he said just follow my car.

So I want there and I was a lot of people

in the basement all finished up.

So I wanted to go and he kept trying to get me to stay.

But he had this Canadian guy who really a straight guy

and, you know, he was getting itchy

because I think he wanted to get him upstairs.

You know, he had come and had dinner.

And so I left.

Sunday night, this was when I first left home.

Sunday night I went to the bar, mainly for nothing

to do, just to have a drink.

And he was there.

So I'm in the parking lot and I said, well you know,

did you get rid of your company?

And he said, oh yeah, last night we did this.

And he said that they just left.

I changed all the sheets, you know, my parents would--

and I said, gee, you must be exhausted.

Why are you coming to the bar?

And he said, well, I was hoping I'd see you here.

So at that point, October 9th, 1962,

we more or less, you know, we were together thirty-eight

and a half years with a little time off for good behavior.

But he dropped dead on June 4--

Sonny, I hope you're keeping track of this--

June 14, 1999.

He was almost twelve years younger than I was.

And he was nineteen when I met him, but he turned twenty

and I was thirty--

I was thirty-one then.

So the thing is that after three years, he and his dad

bought a place on Portsmouth Terrace

and had a carriage house.

So we both moved in there with the idea

we're going to keep an eye on the private apartments,

do the cutting of the grass.

And we really had a nice relationship.

And then, we lived there until '73.

Then we bought a house on Clover Street,

I still live in the house.

So on the morning of June 14th, he went to work

and I had cleaned out the basement

and I had to put it out because the trash man comes on Monday.

So he went to work early.

So he said to me, I'll help you take it out.

And I said, no, you know, you've got to go to work.

But he carried a couple of bags out.

And about an hour and a half later,

a nurse from Parkridge Hospital called

me and she wanted Joe's sister.

Now, you know, and she wanted to know

where Jeanette Dieres lived because that must have been--

And I said, well, you know, but she doesn't live here

and she said, I'm trying to get a hold of Jeanette Dieres

because isn't she the sister?

And I said, yeah.

So I said, may I ask why you want to talk to her?

She said, we just sent his body to the medical examiner.

And I said, you're kidding.

And she said, I wouldn't kid about something like that.

So I had to call the medical examiner

because I told her there was heart disease,

you know, his uncle dropped dead, Uncle Joe,

and the other uncle.

There's real bad heart disease.

He was fifty-seven.

And so, he worked very hard.

He worked pretty hard.

So the thing is after that it was sort of tough, you know,

'99 and it took me quite a while to get over it.

EVELYN BAILEY: Sure.

JOE TERMOTTO: And so I was friends with one other person.

And friends with this one.

I don't think this one can hold a candle to my first husband.

(laughter)

RON: I hear this all the time.

JOE TERMOTTO: I mean, you know.

EVELYN BAILEY: You're a saint.

RON: You're telling me.

JOE TERMOTTO: You can see I was desperate.

RON: You were desperate!

JOE TERMOTTO: That's my story.

And along the way--

you know, Arnie.

I met Arnie and Homer Bills.

Did you know Homer Bills?

EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.

JOE TERMOTTO: Now, Homer Bills and Arnie--

I met you all in '62 and I met Bruce Clark and Alan Mueller

and Homer and Arnie and Dick Green--

he moved out of town.

And we used to all go out every weekend for dinner.

You know, we might meet at Homer's house,

we might meet at Arnie's house.

And we'd have drinks and I remember Arnie's mother.

And Arnie was very catchy.

He had an old mother.

He'd have a wild hat party.

You'd come over to his house and you wore a hat, a woman's hat.

And so we had a lot of fun.

Homer was a very nice man.

So they sort of went together, but then

they just became best of friends.

You see what I mean?

EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.

JOE TERMOTTO: And Homer, especially, liked Arnie.

Yeah they were very close.

Well Homer used to come to the parties, but by that time

his arthritis and his--

EVELYN BAILEY: Yes, was getting bad.

JOE TERMOTTO: Yeah.

KEVIN INDOVINO: What was the name of the gentleman

that you were in a relationship with?

JOE TERMOTTO: Joel DiVito.

Now there's several DiVitos Joe DiVitos.

This is D-I- capital V- I-T-O. There's

another Joe DiVito who had a partner.

He's a hairdresser.

And he had a partner and apparently this partner

died of AIDS.

So this guy in Florida calls Joe DiVito, but he wasn't home.

And he said, I just heard that Joe DiVito's boyfriend died.

So I would be.

And I said, what are you talking about?

And he said, who's this?

I said this is Joe Termotto.

He couldn't believe it.

And he said, well, you're not sick, you didn't die of AIDS?

I said, I'm here.

And then somebody else told me they

saw Joe DiVito on the plane, coming back from Boston.

And I said, oh, Joe, you know.

And they almost call you a liar.

But his name is D-E-V-I-T-O, very nice guy.

And he's no spring chicken but, boy, when I've seen him,

he looks like about twenty years younger.

I mean he's in good--

I mean he's got to be in his 70s,

you know, probably late 70s.

Well, middle 70s.

But he's a hairdresser.

And so the thing is now, we had a good--

you know, a thirty-eight and a half year relationship makes--

but we had a lot of gay friends and we traveled a lot.

And we used to go to P-town and then we had a friend

and we'd go to New Hope, Pennsylvania.

We'd go to Ocean City, New Jersey

and then go to La Jolla Beach, you know,

because two weeks that's beautiful country

in the summertime, it's hot.

And then, we went to Europe.

And then, right before he died, and I was taking Italian from

a priest at East Rochester Night School,

Father Costanzo with a C and with an O.

And he had a trip to Italy coming up and he couldn't--

he had a trip to Italy and he didn't have enough people.

You had to have at least thirty.

So he asked me if I was interested, so I asked Joe,

so we quickly--

the passports were hard because they had the close down.

Number Remember when Clinton closed the post office

because the Congress--

KEVIN INDOVINO: Right.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.

JOE TERMOTTO: It was politics.

But we got the thing and we went to Italy

and then we went to Italy in '97 and then we

went to Italy the year he died.

The year he died, we had gone to Disney World in the fall.

And then we always go to Las Vegas

because a good friend of mine moved there.

And he and his wife were wonderful to us,

I went to school with him.

He just died a couple of years ago.

And then we went to Toronto, we went someplace in February

and we went to Toronto for Easter in

and we went to Paris, Florence, and Venice.

You know, we flew out to Toronto.

And then we ended up--

and then he died in June.

And his sister said, I'm so happy because all

he talked about, he enjoyed-- he liked Paris.

He liked to travel.

And I was the one that had the brains in the family.

And looks, he had the looks, but I had the brains.

And probably, also, a little more money.

But don't put that on the record.

(laughter)

JOE TERMOTTO: I hope I'm not saying too much.

He was a knight.

Oh, he was completely in the closet.

The thing is we'd go over to his sister

and his mother died in '94.

We'd go over there on Christmas.

But, you know, the point is we played cards.

You know, he didn't want you to sit next to him,

make him say something.

He just thought nobody knew and they all knew.

But he was as much in the closet as you could be.

And it's too bad because some of the stuff he'd worry about

is that we never went to the gay picnic

because he was afraid they'd take your picture.

In the Democrat days, every so often

when the vice mayor was in, they had her, Midge Costanza.

And so, it was just a lot of things.

But people-- he was quiet, but people liked him.

I was, if you want to be unkind, people say I'm the mouthy one

and he's the quiet, nice one.

But that said, you can't count on-- we made out our wills,

we made them out twice.

But once his mother died in '94, we did them.

Of course, my mother's dead and my sister died in '68 suddenly,

my brother lives in Florida.

So I didn't-- we made out of wills like I'm going to go

first.

And he had some income property, but they weren't good.

And he had different partners that he had somebody else.

But, the properties were losing money.

So we make out the will and unfortunately, he

left me like his Kodak retirement,

you know, stuff like that.

And he left his sister who is very close to him,

he left her the property.

But everything, the properties were no good.

And I was executor and we had a very good relationship.

But when you're Italian, you don't leave money

to somebody outside--

are you aware of that?

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

JOE TERMOTTO: I mean, you know, you don't leave it.

Now they handled it because I was the executor and I had Paul

[Mira?] You know Paul [Mira?]

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

JOE TERMOTTO: And he's a lawyer.

But we had a tough time with those houses.

And Jeanette was upset.

I'm very close to her, you know.

But she was upset her brother died,

she was nuts about her brother.

And then she called in a lawyer who

was saying we're going to do, we're going to get--

and then I just dreaded those sections.

But Paul kept saying, Joe, everything will work out.

We worked out selling properties, selling this,

selling that.

But we had to sell the property for the mortgages,

there was no money because he had re-mortgaged.

Right before he died, he re-mortgaged everything he had.

So we had no equity.

I mean, you know, so that was--

Paul got me.

It took a year and a half.

And then the Lord had sent me this one

so I spent my senior years.

He's very nice, but he's tight with the dollar.

(laughter)

JOE TERMOTTO: He's tight with the dollar.

Now, along the way I've had many--

met some very nice gay people.

We've been in San Francisco.

We've been, you know, all over.

And we had a lot of nice friends.

EVELYN BAILEY: So your partner of thirty-eight

and a half years worked at Kodak?

JOE TERMOTTO: Yeah.

Yes, but this is what he did.

He worked at Hickey's, Hickey Freeman.

EVELYN BAILEY: Hickey Freeman.

JOE TERMOTTO: And he took two years at RIT Night School

and he got an associate degree in design.

And so he got transferred from a draftsman to the designing.

And the designer liked him and made him assistant designer.

But technically, he didn't really design clothes.

He did everything.

Like, Bing Crosby would have fifteen sport coats made up.

It was his job to see that they went through.

(interposing voices)

JOE TERMOTTO: Who's was the guy?

Johnny Carson used to have clothes made.

Hickey's made beautiful clothes.

I used to get a jacket for Christmas

because they send the stuff out to be photographed in New York.

And then the help can buy it real cheap

so I was dressed nice for an old man.

Now, so he worked there.

And one day, he went to work and they laid off

middle management.

And they didn't lay him off because his boss was in Tokyo

and he told them please, you can't lay him off.

Wait until I come back because I want to talk to him.

So he comes home from work Friday

after working there twenty-two, twenty-three years.

And he said, all these guys got laid off today,

I feel so sorry for them.

But then when he went to work Monday,

the designer who was a friend of his was there.

And he was about forty-three.

He had a hard time getting a job because at forty-three

and so he ended up, he took real estate.

He became a part-time real estater.

And one day, when he had this house, a house for sale,

this girl came.

And I guess she liked him and she said, what do you do?

And he mentioned he got laid off.

And she says, I have a girlfriend at Kodak Advantage

and who's in on that road.

And she said, she told me they were hiring.

Why don't you--

I'll call her.

And so he got a job in production then he moved up.

But he had three jobs when he died, he had to the Kodak job,

he had real estate he sold, and then he also took of his--

they're not slum properties.

But, I used to, you know, I've cleaned more stoves.

And did you ever clean a stove?

KEVIN INDOVINO: I have rental property.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

JOE TERMOTTO: Yeah.

And, you know, I cut grass on Park Avenue

And picked up the thousands of cigarette butts.

And he wanted me to invest with them.

But see, he got into real estate just--

it was wonderful.

Then all of a sudden it started coming down.

And he guy in when it was down and everything went bananas.

And I helped him, but I didn't want to buy property.

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

RON: You know, Forty Union might be something of interest,

Forty Union might be something of interest.

JOE TERMOTTO: Well back in Forty Union,

that was owned by a gay guy.

That was called Forty Union.

EVELYN BAILEY: Jesse?

JOE TERMOTTO: No, the guy, he was well known in circles.

His sister owned the place over across from Kodak.

Do you know what I'm talking about, Kodak office?

EVELYN BAILEY: I know what you're talking about, yeah.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Lost and Found.

EVELYN BAILEY: Lost and Found.

JOE TERMOTTO: Lost and Found, yeah.

Yeah, we used to go there.

His sister is very nice.

And so this guy, Bill something, it takes me time.

He won this office place at Forty Union.

So George Sedor and Billy Bob Lieberman and Billy Leon

wanted to buy it.

Well Billy Leon was Joe's cousin,

first cousin once removed.

So he liked James.

He used to call up all the time, say, how's cousin Joey?

So he asked George, three of them,

he said, I want to get my cousin, but I wasn't asked.

So they put up money and they bought it.

And for a couple, about five years,

Forty Union on Friday nights you couldn't get in the door.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

JOE TERMOTTO: Now Joe went to all the meetings and he'd go

but George really ran it, George Sedor.

You know, what he said and Billy and Bob,

Billy wasn't as neurotic.

He just died.

Billy, and he'd go out when he was in charge

and he'd empty the ashtray somebody would flick an ash

and he'd run.

And the help was going crazy because he--

so they had to get together and ask Billy to desist.

And Bob Leiberman, I was in Florida

and I just found out he died, but he was about eighty-eight.

Billy was a cook, but Bob was a professor which RIT then MCC,

he taught political science.

And they were all-- and George was

in the food business, something like Beech-Nut or wholesale.

And so For the Union didn't have, for a while

they used to divide the profits.

EVELYN BAILEY: They were doing well.

JOE TERMOTTO: Yeah.

And then John Foley who was the bartender who

had cancer of the lungs.

Did you know John?

EVELYN BAILEY: I knew him, yes.

But not well.

JOE TERMOTTO: OK.

Well, you know, he was a very nice guy,

but then he developed--

well, he was an alcoholic, but he developed cancer.

And he had a laryngectomy he didn't want to see anybody.

But then he came back and he wanted to buy in with George.

So they bought Joe's shares out over a period of time.

But this must have been '86 or '87.

You know, the thing is we used to go there Friday night,

there were so many people that you couldn't sit down

for two hours.

And I felt like saying, I'm married to one of the owners

and I can't even get my fish fried here.

I mean, I had to sit there.

I'm not a drinker, how I suffered.

EVELYN BAILEY: I'm sure you did, Joe.

I'm sure you did.

(laughter)

EVELYN BAILEY: Now go back.

JOE TERMOTTO: I don't want any comments.

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, write the questions

that you want him to answer.

EVELYN BAILEY: Go back.

When you were first coming out, what was available for you

in terms of the gay scene?

JOE TERMOTTO: Nothing, I found out

once I was married two years that they drove

around the Broad Street Bridge.

That was big.

You know, cars would park there and you

drive around the entire block.

And the police used to, you had to be very careful

because there were guys there parking, rich guys, you know,

Lincolns and Cadillacs, they wanted to pick up somebody.

And that was the only thing available

because I didn't know about gay bars

and my friends weren't gay.

EVELYN BAILEY: So these guys who would

be driving around the Broad Street Bridge--

JOE TERMOTTO: Or park.

EVELYN BAILEY: They would be doing

that to pick, up the guys that came out of the bar?

JOE TERMOTTO: No, well you might walk from Martha's to the bar.

But, no.

Some people just they wanted to meet somebody, so late

at night after 10:30, 11 o'clock,

they would get in their car and drive

around Court Street, St. Mary's Church, you know,

that was the cruisey area.

But you had to be careful because police.

And one night this old police officer came up to the car

and I just parked there.

And he started screaming about it and get out of there

or he was going to have me arrested and charged.

You know, I wasn't doing anything.

But more people, you know--

a friend of mine, a guy picked him up

and he took him home he wanted to have

intercourse with the wife.

And the guy said, mister, I don't

mind having intercourse with you,

but I don't want to have intercourse--

I mean, you get some real strange situations.

EVELYN BAILEY: In 1969 when Stonewall happened,

what happened here?

JOE TERMOTTO: Well, it took time.

We used to go to New York and there were bars there

in New York that were terrible, like they were nice bars

that they had been raided.

There was one on 53rd Street and there

was one on (unintelligible) and 52nd Street.

But the one on 53rd was between First and Second

Avenue, a fancy bar.

It had been raided.

So what they did is they had a policeman at the door.

And they'd tell you when you came in,

the place was still open.

But you're taking your chances because if they decide

to raid at any time and if you're

in there, that you have to go in the wagon and, you know,

get booked.

So Joe and I would walk to this place

on 53rd Street, which I liked, they

had a piano player who was nice.

But you sort of think you're taking your chances, you know.

The policeman was right there.

I've never been in a raided place, but I've heard.

And then, we would go to New York quite a bit in the 60s.

So what happened, I was aware I had been in that bar,

you know, a while ago.

And I knew where I was and I knew about the riots.

But it takes a little time, we didn't have the communication.

And it was the day of Judy Garland's funeral

and everybody knows that the gay people love Judy Garland.

I talked to her once and I saw her in Buffalo on April 10th,

my wife took me for a birthday present

to see her at Kleinhan's Music Hall and she was fabulous.

A week later, she did Carnegie in October

she came to Rochester.

And, you know, she was still good then.

But very shortly thereafter, that poor lady got done in by--

EVELYN BAILEY: So after Stonewall happened and the Gay

Liberation Front began in Rochester,

were you aware of the Gay Liberation Front?

JOE TERMOTTO: No.

I knew there was stuff at the U of R. And I'd read,

every so often, they'd have a movie.

But this was a little later and saying--

that's open and that people are, more or less,

saying if you're gay, you are very welcome here or lesbian.

But see, that didn't-- like Judy Garland,

nobody said Judy Garland had her.

They just got tired.

It was hot and they were tired of taking the crap

that they really took a lot of stuff from city men.

We went to the World's Fair in '65.

What they did is they cleaned out,

they closed all the gay bars, or else they

had them all raided and a big sign,

you're going to be arrested.

So, you know, and my boyfriend was very in the closet.

I mean, so the worst thing that could happen to him

is he gets arrested and his father and mother

had to go bail him out or bail me out.

Now this one is the pig, you see that.

(laughter)

I'm very lucky at this stage in my life

to have found somebody as nice as him to spend my--

what do you call that?

The seniors years.

Because most of my friends are dead.

EVELYN BAILEY: When you had your wills drawn up by Paul,

did you have to be very careful about how you wrote them

in order for you and Joe to inherit from each other?

JOE TERMOTTO: Well, this is what happened.

The first will was not done by Paul.

I Didn't know Paul then.

It was done by a friend of Joe and Tom's, but he

was a straight lawyer.

Joe and Tom from the restaurant, Edwards.

And Joe and Tom were friendly with this lawyer and his wife.

So we went and drew the thing.

And what we wanted to do is, my mother was still alive,

she hadn't died eighty.

And because I wanted to make sure

if I went that she would be taken care.

But see, I trusted him.

So in the will, we worded it that I'm not

leaving her anything now because she's elderly,

but I know that my partner will take good care

and I believe he would have.

So then that and the other things.

Oh, when we bought the house, we bought the house

and we bought it as tenants in common, not joint ownership.

And tenants in common--

no, we won't we bought it and somebody said.

So I said to Joe, I said, you've got

to tell your mother and father that if anything should happen

to you, I inherit the house.

He said, oh, I can't do that.

Then they'll know I'm gay.

Well I went and saw my mother, you

know, about six months before she went in the nursing home,

my liked Joe.

And I said, mom if anything happens to me,

the house gives the tenant because this way somebody won't

come in and make it.

My mother said, oh, I understand that.

That's fine.

But I couldn't get Joe to agree to tell

his parents because then they knew he would be gay.

So we got through that will and then when we got to know Paul,

we made a will.

And that was the '94 one and he told me to leave,

you know, I've got a lot of nieces and nephews

and I've got some that are favorites.

And my sister died, my brother moved to Florida in '93.

And he was successful as a businessperson,

you know, life insurance, stocks.

You know, he had five designations after his --

You know, so I didn't want to leave--

it was never a question of leaving Tony anything.

But first will with Charlie, and the guy's name was Charlie.

And he was a nice guy.

He was straight but he understood.

So that will had to be worded special.

Maybe it was '74.

We bought the house in '73 and I think

we saw Charlie in about '75.

In a little soon, I want you to tell that--

I can't.

Is my hair OK?

KEVIN INDOVINO: I'm just amazed that you still have it.

(laughter)

JOE TERMOTTO: So I say that the people.

I went to a wedding, his name's (unintelligible) and Kate.

And I kept going up to people and I said, is my hair OK?

And they look at me and they start-- you know,

because what can you do with this kind of hair?

RON: But, you used to talk about the bar,

though, when the police would come,

with the lesbians and the gays.

How there would be signals?

JOE TERMOTTO: Well, Martha Gruttadauria had very good.

Her son was a system district attorney, son-in-law.

And she had very good relations with the police.

And so they had dancing in the room

and it was on Stone street.

And people used to go by and see men and me and women and women.

And you'd see some of them look in the window

they couldn't believe it because that was unheard of.

But there would always be fights and unfortunately, the fights

were mostly between the women.

And at that point, there was a structure between the lesbians.

Some were very feminine and some were very butch.

They used the term butch.

And what happened is they'd be very jealous of the butch one

if the femme looked at a nice person or somebody started

talking to her.

So there were several knifings.

So you'd hear this, we'd all be in there.

There would be dancing.

And hear this screaming.

And then Martha, right away, would call the cops.

You know, she had like a direct line.

So in about three minutes, they were there

and they broke up the fight between two women.

I'm not trying to say because it's not like that today.

But it was like that then, you know.

And the sweet one was sweet, the tough one was tough.

And if you became friendly with the sweet one

and telling jokes and making all that,

the other one didn't seem to be too happy.

They seemed to be jealous.

But that's not apparent today, but it was apparent

back when I came up.

So the police would come and they'd

either break it up or take the people off in the wagon.

And so Martha had--

they used to say Martha paid off.

But I think what she did is she gave them, you know,

whiskey and she gave them gifts, you know, the police.

But Martha was a very shrewd business woman

and she ran that bar.

And I liked her.

She liked people who behaved and actually if you own a bar,

you don't want these troublemakers you know raising.

But then Martha went on to have a place once they rebuilt Stone

Street, she had a place on State Street, which I never

have been to.

Then she got out of the gay bar and she bought a bar

on Alexander and South Avenue and she was killed there.

you were aware of that, weren't you?

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

JOE TERMOTTO: Yeah, so the thing is, she

was killed by somebody who she knew was on drugs.

And I can say Martha always said hello and she was always nice.

But she had it tough.

She was running a bar, which wasn't

100 percent legal in the sense of what they did in there.

EVELYN BAILEY: Do you have any--

KEVIN INDOVINO: No, I guess my only question now

is for someone who's in your more mature years, what

is it like in the gay social scene for you?

Where do you socialize?

JOE TERMOTTO: OK, well initially the older gay people

were excluded from everything.

But the tide has changed.

I go out and about and we have young, middle,

and we have older.

And they all seem to get along.

I used to see, like, at the picnic, I used to say,

I don't want to go.

They're all young kids.

But, gee, we went to the picnic Sunday

and saw a lot of old friends, we met some new friends.

I mean, you're not trying to make out,

you're just trying to socialize.

And I was hard of hearing.

In service I was exposed ninety millimeters.

And as I got older, I got deafer and deafer.

We didn't wear protection and so it was very difficult.

I hid it because I couldn't communicate.

And so I had a cochlear done last September.

And this is, I was down to pencil and paper, you know,

and he could read, he knew.

But the thing, he went to all these meetings all, those.

You know, it's a big deal having a deaf--

EVELYN BAILEY: Sure.

JOE TERMOTTO: But it was very, very successful.

And after I got hooked up, five weeks later, I can hear.

You know, I can't go to a bar and have loud music and such.

But if you're next to me, sonny, I can now get a hold of you

and you won't get away.

No, and that's changed my personality.

And I sort of think, I've got as much right, you know,

if I go to the picnic and if I go to the parade,

I've got as much right as anybody to be there,

whether you are straight or gay.

And this has changed me, where before you'd

say, oh, the old people.

Get away you old man.