Audio Interview, John W. Grace and Nelson Baldo, May 11, 2012
- EVELYN BAILEY: Now, Marshall Goldman?
- JOHN GRACE: He's the father.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And Larry Fine is this guy, right?
- JOHN GRACE: That's Larry.
- Marshall's the big guy.
- I was thinking of Marshall today.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Now, these Albany hearings--
- Marshall, RJ, and Bob.
- Is that Bjorn?
- On the right?
- No.
- JOHN GRACE: Nope.
- No you want to know something?
- He was a photographer, I think.
- And I should remember, because he
- took a series of nude pictures of me.
- Remember those?
- NELSON BALDO: I wonder if he signed them.
- I still have those.
- JOHN GRACE: Yeah, I'll bet you his name is on them.
- NELSON BALDO: Scandalous.
- JOHN GRACE: Yeah, scandals-- that's
- when I was young and had a body.
- Remember those days?
- EVELYN BAILEY: OK.
- I'll make a note of that because--
- NELSON BALDO: I'll take those out
- and see if his name's on them.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Do you have pictures?
- JOHN GRACE: They're nudes of me, that that guy took.
- NELSON BALDO: But he may have signed them.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And then there's this one,
- with Bob Osborne and Bjorn--
- JOHN GRACE: There is Bjorn.
- That's Bjorno.
- NELSON BALDO: Oh, yeah.
- Oh my god, I remember his face.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And do you know who--
- JOHN GRACE: No, except isn't this here.
- Isn't that Marshall Goldman again?
- EVELYN BAILEY: What does it say?
- Top left-- Osborne, Bjorn Lawson, and Marshall Goldman.
- Yes.
- Gay-In, May 16th, 1971.
- JOHN GRACE: OK.
- And they're saying that is Bjorn, what's his last name?
- Lawson.
- OK, that would be it.
- I don't know why I'm saying Bjorn Borg.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Isn't that a tennis player?
- JOHN GRACE: Yeah, it's something like that I think.
- And I think they had a sex change too.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Lawson-- L-A-W-S-O-N.
- This is the march in Albany.
- I don't know.
- JOHN GRACE: Amherst College, pedarist and sodomist.
- Well.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And there are some other things here, but--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Are you rolling yet?
- Are you recording yet?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Oh, yeah.
- And I brought this out because John
- said we started to talk to me about going
- to the Top of the Plaza.
- He and Nelson were in the group that--
- NELSON BALDO: I wasn't with them.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: John was?
- NELSON BALDO: John was.
- JOHN GRACE: I was the instigator for that, actually.
- EVELYN BAILEY: I thought Whitey LeBlanc was the instigator.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Nah, you all take credit for everything.
- JOHN GRACE: We were all--
- I mean , we were all at that time together on everything,
- believe me.
- Whitey, how is the dear doing?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Pardon me?
- JOHN GRACE: How is he doing?
- EVELYN BAILEY: He's doing well.
- He's still being a plumber.
- JOHN GRACE: Good for him.
- EVELYN BAILEY: But this is the stuff
- that Larry Fine gave me years ago.
- Some of it's Larry's, and I think some of it
- came from Bob Osborne.
- And I didn't know if the pamphlet that John was talking
- about would have been in here.
- JOHN GRACE: Actually, all it was was like a flyer.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: And this is a flyer
- promoting the first dance?
- JOHN GRACE: No, what had happened,
- was at that period in time the Gay Liberation
- Front was already formed.
- But at that period in time, the police department
- started going around to the gay bars.
- And they had two tactics that they were doing.
- One of them was they would come in,
- and if they saw two men dancing together they
- would arrest both of them.
- And the other tactic they had done,
- was because then people started to have lookouts at the door.
- And if they saw the police, they would stop dancing.
- So then, the police would come in, and just
- arrest for loitering.
- And they would always come in and choose--
- because you could tell--
- people that were in the closet.
- And they knew that if they arrested them,
- it would be a big thing.
- Because, you know, either a wife was
- involved, or a good job, or something like that.
- And now we had two tactics to stop them.
- And one of them was, when the police came in, I know myself,
- Bjorn, Danny Scipione--
- we would all rush to the police, and tell them to arrest us.
- Because we really didn't give a shit, you know.
- And we would rush to them and say, "We're fags, arrest us."
- And of course, they didn't know how to deal with us then.
- Then, we decided that we needed to do something
- to publicize this.
- And we talked to newspapers.
- We talked to television stations.
- Nobody wanted to deal with it.
- So we as a group--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Not even XXI?
- JOHN GRACE: I don't even think XXI was around then, dear.
- We as a group decided that what we would do--
- the Top of Midtown Plaza was like the place for the upper
- echelon to go-- the lawyers, the doctors, all that--
- for cocktail hour.
- Then, for dinner and dancing.
- They always had little jazz quartets and that up there.
- So we decided the thing to do would be to pair up--
- a gay man and gay woman, a lesbian.
- And dress very, very conservative,
- and look the part of the straight world--
- and go up there.
- And there was--
- I don't know, there was about twenty of us.
- And we went up there, and we had a drink.
- And we went on the dance floor, and started dancing--
- man and woman together.
- And then, we had one of us--
- I don't even know who--
- was going to cough real loud or something.
- And when that happened, we were going
- to break off and start dancing man and man together,
- and woman and woman together.
- At the same time, we had some people up there
- that had leaflets.
- And they were going around, they were handing them
- to whoever would take him.
- And the leaflets basically said, if you
- won't leave us alone and let us dance in our bars,
- then we're coming to you and we're dancing in yours.
- And the Top of the Plaza was Foley--
- was the manager.
- And he somehow, I think, had a little word
- that it was going to happen.
- Because he had a few goons there.
- And then he threw us all out, which
- we knew was going to happen.
- As a matter of fact, we really anticipated
- we'd probably get arrested.
- But that didn't happen.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: But you eventually did
- get thrown out after you started handing out the flyers, though?
- JOHN GRACE: Oh, yeah, sure.
- But you know, prior to that, I have to tell you that--
- when Dick's 43 was on Stone Street.
- And then, another bar opened up.
- The Rathskeller, was it?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Jesse's Place, you mean?
- JOHN GRACE: Yeah-- opened up.
- What would happen is, especially at Dick's 43,
- they would have a jukebox there.
- And the guys would dance to the jukebox.
- The police would show up, and they would unplug the jukebox.
- And people would stop dancing.
- And the police would come in, and come to the end of the bar.
- And there would be a discussion.
- And either Dick would come out, or Martha would come out.
- I mean, I saw this on more than one occasion.
- Either the bartender, or Dick or Martha
- would go over and open up the cash register,
- take out a sum of money, walk over hand
- it to the police officer.
- The police officer would walk over, plug-in the jukebox,
- walk out the door.
- And I mean, that's before we even had GLF.
- And I mean, those are the things--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So we're talking very late '60s, early '70s,
- or even earlier than that?
- JOHN GRACE: Right, late '60s, early '70s.
- Because I got out of the service in 1969.
- And it would've been right about that period.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: That was just before the GLF, though?
- JOHN GRACE: Yeah, because--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: It was kind of the same time period.
- JOHN GRACE: --we started the GLF, I think, in 1970.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Now, were you born in Rochester, John?
- JOHN GRACE: No, Pennsylvania.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And growing up, did
- you know, like, you were gay?
- JOHN GRACE: Oh, yeah, yeah.
- I think I knew back as far as, well, preschool.
- So I always knew.
- I didn't know what gay was, but I always knew.
- I can remember having fantasies when I was
- a kid, watching Tarzan movies.
- And Tarzan would somehow get injured or something,
- and they would carry him.
- And I always wanted to be one of the guys that carried,
- and had my hands on his leg.
- And I would have been, like, four or five years old.
- And I can remember having those fantasies--
- so yes, always.
- EVELYN BAILEY: In your youth, were there places in your town?
- Where--
- JOHN GRACE: I'm from Walworth, New York--
- total population was 250.
- There were more cows than--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So what did you--
- you were born in Pennsylvania?
- JOHN GRACE: Pardon?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: You were born in Pennsylvania?
- JOHN GRACE: Yeah.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: But then moved up to Walworth?
- JOHN GRACE: Right.
- Born outside of Altoona in Pennsylvania,
- moved to Walworth in '50--
- I don't know, like, 2, '51.
- Because you couldn't get work in Pennsylvania.
- My father moved up here because my mother had a sister up here.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And so your high-school years
- were in Walworth?
- JOHN GRACE: Yeah, in Central High School.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And did you know about Rochester?
- JOHN GRACE: I knew about Rochester, but--
- I remember the first time I ever heard the word gay,
- or knew the word gay.
- And that was--
- I would have probably been about a freshman in high school,
- maybe a little earlier-- about a freshman.
- Life magazine ran a story on gays.
- And I had saw a hard copy of it.
- And it said the word gay.
- And until then, I never even knew
- that that's what that meant.
- Or, that that was actually a word that meant that.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Roughly, what year would this have been?
- JOHN GRACE: I would have been probably in seventh grade.
- I graduated in '65, so it would've been late '50s--
- '59.
- Pardon?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: '59, '60?
- JOHN GRACE: Yeah.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I'd be curious to find that Life magazine
- EVELYN BAILEY: We'll look for it.
- And then, when did you-- you graduated high school in '60--
- JOHN GRACE: In '65.
- I left for the service in '65.
- I mean, I left for the service five days after graduation--
- something like that.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Was that-- you volunteered to go to the Army.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: In the middle of Vietnam.
- JOHN GRACE: Yeah, but I mean there was the draft.
- If you didn't volunteer, you--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: You would have been drafted anyway.
- JOHN GRACE: Exactly.
- And you would have went--
- NELSON BALDO: Army.
- EVELYN BAILEY: In the Army?
- JOHN GRACE: Right.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, he was in the Air Force.
- He enlisted in the Air Force, so he would
- get drafted into the Army.
- JOHN GRACE: Nelson joined the Air Force also.
- We're an Air Force family.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Did you meet in the Air Force?
- JOHN GRACE: In a way, after.
- Right after he got out.
- JOHN GRACE: We used to have a bumper sticker,
- we are an Air Force family, on the back of our little Gremlin.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Can you share, either of you, or both of you,
- a little bit about--
- well, did you know, Nelson, that you were gay when
- you went into the Air Force?
- NELSON BALDO: Yeah, definitely.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And did you grow up in Rochester?
- NELSON BALDO: East Rochester.
- Born in Pennsylvania as well.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Wow.
- JOHN GRACE: Yeah, isn't that interesting?
- EVELYN BAILEY: And did you know about downtown Rochester
- when you were in East Rochester?
- NELSON BALDO: Ah, I think, you know, I first went--
- I'm thinking of when Jenny first brought me out.
- I was home on leave from the Air Force.
- My neighbor underwent a sex change.
- And she was the high-school athlete in East Rochester.
- She did everything.
- She drove cars, and played baseball.
- Ended up playing in a woman's rock
- band that used to play around--
- all lesbians.
- And she had a sex change.
- But when I was home, she really clued me in
- as to what was going on with me.
- And she brought me to a bar down off of State Street
- JOHN GRACE: That's the one where it was straight at the bar,
- and you walked in back and there was dancing.
- NELSON BALDO: They had shows.
- Yeah, they had drag shows.
- JOHN GRACE: It was on Brown Street.
- NELSON BALDO: But I ended up going home with a bouncer.
- JOHN GRACE: Well, the funny thing
- is Jenny Bolivia used to race Corvettes, drag race Corvettes.
- And little did I know at that time, all the men in Walworth
- idolized her.
- They just thought she was it.
- She drag raced, man.
- Of course, they had no idea she was
- a lesbian, or anything else.
- And I never thought anything about it.
- Until I was talking to him and his mother once,
- and they told me about Jenny.
- I said, "Oh, she used to race."
- NELSON BRANDO:: Yeah, she's quite well known.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Jenny was a man who became a woman,
- but a (interposing voices) woman became a man.
- NELSON BALDO: She's Jay now.
- She lives in California.
- He lives in California, god, the first time.
- In fact, the first time he came home, I was at a party.
- And I got a phone call-- we had a restaurant at the time.
- And they put him on.
- And he said, "Nelson, this is Jay."
- And we were having this conversation--
- and we have a good friend, Jay, up in Boston.
- And I said, Jay from California--
- I said, "I'm sorry, I just can't place Jay from California."
- And then he said, "Nel, this is Jenny."
- And he came into the restaurant the next day.
- You know, we had decided to meet there.
- And I was all apprehensive.
- I had no idea what he was going to look like.
- You know, because some of them look like your aunt dressed up.
- And he's perfect, and happy.
- And he was always just so masculine, and good
- at anything he wanted to do.
- And lives in California, married.
- JOHN GRACE: Didn't he marry Miss America or something?
- NELSON BALDO: He was involved with a couple of things,
- and had his own company.
- But he told me-- he said, "I've always just wanted
- to be the guy next door."
- There's nothing sensational in it.
- He's just living as a suburban schmuck, you know.
- That's what he said to me--
- I always just wanted to be the guy next door.
- And my family knows, of course--
- and very accepting.
- And I haven't heard anything from him.
- He keeps in touch with Cheryl Martin, the photographer.
- And when I run into Cheryl occasionally,
- she'll catch me up on it.
- But I haven't heard anything now for years.
- I haven't seen Cheryl for a while, actually.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Was the bar Jim's?
- NELSON BALDO: No, he met me at my restaurant.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yes, but the bar on State Street--
- NELSON BALDO: It was behind Kodak-- maybe on Brown Street.
- And the guy who owns it was Louis.
- And he still owns strip clubs.
- Really unsavory type, it's great.
- EVELYN BAILEY: The Red Fez?
- The Brown Derby?
- JOHN GRACE: Wait a second, something Derby.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Blue Chip?
- NELSON BALDO: Could have been the Blue Chip.
- JOHN GRACE: The Blue Chip.
- NELSON BALDO: I remember that.
- JOHN GRACE: There we go.
- That's what I think.
- NELSON BALDO: I wonder if that was it?
- Think that was it?
- JOHN GRACE: I think it was.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Ma Martins was on Front Street way back.
- NELSON BALDO: No, that wasn't it.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And then, Dick's.
- NELSON BALDO: So it must have been
- the Blue Chip That's the only bar I can remember, now
- that you said it.
- JOHN GRACE: See you're going back--
- Nelson is older than me actually.
- I know it doesn't look that way.
- But you're going back with him when this happened,
- probably '67,
- NELSON BALDO: I don't know (unintelligible)
- when Jenny brought me out.
- EVELYN BAILEY: How old were you?
- NELSON BALDO: Somewhere around twenty.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And when were you born, if you don't mind?
- NELSON BALDO: No, not at all.
- I was born in '44.
- EVELYN BAILEY: So it would have been 1964, or 1965.
- NELSON BALDO: Yeah, because after high school
- I messed around with college for a while.
- And then, I was drafted into the Army.
- And I could not believe--
- they were really scraping the bottom
- of the barrel on that one.
- So I went through in Buffalo, is where
- I went through all the testing.
- You had to stay overnight.
- I think I joined the Air Force the next day.
- I said, I'm not going to spend time with these people.
- And it was really the dregs of society.
- I could not believe it.
- EVELYN BAILEY: So having said that about one armed services
- branch, what was your experience in the Air Force like?
- Were you out?
- NELSON BALDO: Not out.
- JOHN GRACE: Yeah, you couldn't be out.
- You could not be out.
- See, that's something that I don't think--
- and I was thinking of this today--
- anybody has ever addressed.
- And that is, exactly what it was like prior to Don't Ask,
- Don't Tell, and all that.
- Because there was something called a Section 8.
- First of all, you either went in the service,
- or you had another choice.
- Because we had the draft.
- You could tell them that you were homosexual,
- and they would not take you.
- But if you did that, then they had something
- called a Section 8 that they labeled you as.
- And that was the end of your life.
- You did not get a job.
- You were a third-class citizen--
- not even a second class--
- all the rest of your life.
- And if you were in the service, and you told
- somebody you were gay--
- and you got discharged because of that--
- or if you got caught with somebody, and you were gay,
- they gave you a Section 8 discharge.
- And I mean, literally, colleges would not accept you.
- You did not go into any kind of gainful employment
- that was worthwhile.
- It just was the end of your life.
- And I was thinking about that today.
- And I was thinking about how controlling it was--
- how society was, if you were gay.
- I mean, I used to be in the Speaker's Bureau for the Gay
- Liberation Front.
- And the one thing I used to always tell people--
- I used to go, you know why there's so many homosexuals,
- don't you?
- I said, Christ, they advertise you everywhere.
- I mean, they just advertise you everywhere.
- Why wouldn't there be, you know?
- EVELYN BAILEY: So you didn't meet in the Air Force,
- or did you?
- NELSON BALDO: No, we met after.
- JOHN GRACE: We met Dick's 43.
- Either Dick's 43 or the Rathskeller.
- We met at the Rathskeller.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Where was that again?
- NELSON BALDO: Behind midtown, behind the bus station
- at midtown.
- JOHN GRACE: I had a white T-shirt on.
- I was in Britain--
- with a big English flag on the front of it.
- And he couldn't resist me.
- And that was 45-plus years ago.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Wow.
- So when you were involved with the GLF,
- you were not a student at the University of Rochester.
- You were a "community member."
- JOHN GRACE: All that's very interesting,
- because the very first meeting for the GLF
- happened in Eva Scipione living room.
- And Eva Scipione is the mother of Danny Scipione
- who has died now of AIDS.
- But that was the very first meeting,
- was in Eva's living room.
- Have you ever talked to Eva Scipione?
- EVELYN BAILEY: No.
- JOHN GRACE: You should make a point of it.
- NELSON BALDO: She's still involved.
- She got the quilt here.
- She worked on getting the quilt here.
- EVELYN BAILEY: She got gray hair?
- NELSON BALDO: Oh yeah, short.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And glasses, short?
- I have met her.
- I didn't know--
- JOHN GRACE: Wonderful woman.
- EVELYN BAILEY: --that's who it was.
- JOHN GRACE: Well, at the time, of course
- it wasn't the way it is today.
- I mean, I can remember Eva coming home.
- And the meeting amounted to--
- there was me, there was Bjorn.
- There was Danny Scipione and there
- was somebody else that I can't quite--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Bob Crystal?
- JOHN GRACE: Could be, yes.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Not RJ?
- JOHN GRACE: No, it wasn't RJ.
- Because it wasn't anybody from the U of R.
- And we had the meeting, and we formed--
- whatever that means.
- But then we all looked at each other and said--
- Eva came home while we were having this meeting.
- Danny got up and chased her out.
- And we all said, well, we're not going to be meeting here.
- Where are we going to meet?
- And this won't do as a group.
- And somehow-- and I think it was through RJ-- somebody got
- talking with RJ about what we had done before in this group.
- And somehow, it got moved to the U of R.
- But in order to be at the U of R,
- there had to be U of R people.
- Because we couldn't do that as non-students.
- I mean, they gave money.
- They never really gave money--
- what they did was give a room to meet in, stuff like that.
- And somebody from the U of R had to be involved.
- And of course, most of the students
- there were very closeted.
- And why don't you be?
- I mean, we're going back to, like, 1970.
- EVELYN BAILEY: The first meeting at the University
- of Rochester of the Gay Liberation Front was,
- according to the history that I know, October 3rd, 1970.
- Bob Osborne and Larry Fine invited
- a member of the Mattachine Society,
- and a member of the Cornell GLF to speak at Todd Union.
- And there were about 100 people who came.
- And out of that meeting, came the GLF,
- the Gay Liberation Front.
- Now, that's--
- JOHN GRACE: Well, first of all, I
- think you need to look at the poster,
- because those dates don't jive.
- That's the first dance there.
- And the first events weekend.
- And that was in October of 1970.
- So the dates don't really jive.
- It's all very vague, what the history was.
- NELSON BALDO: It's a long time ago.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: That is a long time ago.
- I just want to step back a little bit,
- and I want to talk a little bit about that meeting
- at Eva's house.
- I mean, tell me what it was like.
- What were you talking about?
- What were your initial ideas of what you were trying to do?
- JOHN GRACE: We don't really know.
- Except that it had happened at Stonewall--
- all that had happened at Stonewall.
- We were experiencing problems here in Rochester.
- And we met as a way to just advance us as people forward.
- I mean, that was our whole idea.
- EVELYN BAILEY: What made you come together?
- JOHN GRACE: You have to understand something.
- When I got out of the service--
- First of all, when I was in the service, I got sent to England.
- And I met an English gentleman there, George Pritchard.
- And until that point, I had never
- fully connected in my brain that a man could really love a man.
- I'd had plenty of homosexual sex, but it was simply sex.
- And I met this guy-- and I did, I fell very much in love
- with him.
- And it was just entirely different.
- It just opened up this whole different realm to me.
- And yet, I couldn't do anything with it.
- I mean, because if I would have ever gotten caught, as I said,
- life was over.
- When I got my discharge from the service in June of 1969--
- I remember when I got in the airplane,
- and I landed in New Jersey.
- I changed into my civilian clothes.
- I took all of my military clothes,
- and I threw them in the garbage.
- And I just said to myself, this is a promise to me,
- no one will ever control my life like that again.
- That is never going to happen in my life.
- And that's really where my motivation came from
- to get with Danny and Bjorn.
- I mean, Bjorn was being thrown in prison
- for being a drag queen.
- Do you know what I mean?
- It was a horrible experience in this city.
- NELSON BALDO: She was very brave
- JOHN GRACE: Yes.
- Bjorn was very brave.
- And of course the thing about Bjorn,
- was that he had the backing of his family.
- Because his family was out in, like
- I said, Sweden or something.
- And his mother used to sew his gowns and that for him.
- So I mean, he came from a family that was very understanding.
- And Danny had his mother, who was an--
- Eva Scipione is an incredible woman.
- She knew what Danny was, and was always right
- there for him, and behind him.
- And even the day he died of AIDS,
- she was right there with him.
- And then took care of one of his lovers until he died.
- And that's just the way Eva is.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So you got back here
- in June of '69, which is basically
- when Stonewall happened.
- Did you land actually when the riots were happening?
- JOHN GRACE: Very shortly after.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Then, you came back up to Walworth
- immediately?
- JOHN GRACE: Yeah, I did really.
- Actually what happened was, I had
- a Triumph TR4 that came over.
- I had bought it in England.
- So I went from the base--
- what is the name of that base in New Jersey?
- Dix.
- I went from there to--
- it was north New Jersey, to the docks.
- Picked up my Triumph TR4, and drove to Walworth.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: And try to give folks-- since the time
- that you came back, were discharged from the service,
- to when that first meeting at Eva's house.
- When did that meeting happen?
- JOHN GRACE: Well, let's see.
- Nelson, you and I met--
- we met literally within a week from me getting out
- of the service, two weeks.
- NELSON BALDO: It was real close, because we got the dog.
- He had-- holding a sheep dog he had sent back,
- and we picked it up together at the airport.
- So it wasn't long.
- JOHN GRACE: So it was just a matter of weeks and we met.
- EVELYN BAILEY: So, 1969.
- JOHN GRACE: Yeah, that's when we met.
- NELSON BALDO: So it was June or July.
- JOHN GRACE: Well, I got out June 28th.
- And we would have been together--
- you went to the Cape for July 4th.
- And I was going to go with you.
- And I got out, and I landed a job at Xerox.
- And they said to me, "Well, you can't go."
- I wanted to go with him to the Cape,
- and I said, "I want some time off to go."
- And they said, "If you do that, you've lost this job."
- So I stayed.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And so, how soon after that did you and Danny--
- JOHN GRACE: I would say within six to seven months--
- maybe a little bit more than that.
- Because we went from living on next, to the art gallery.
- And we moved over to Westminster Road-- he and I did.
- And it was while we were at Westminster Road we formed it.
- We got together and did that.
- See, but everything was gelling at that time.
- Because Stonewall happened, and Stonewall was a major event.
- I mean, there were gays threatening
- to burn down a city if they didn't get what
- they thought they were due.
- And they were due, you know what I mean?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Here in Rochester?
- JOHN GRACE: No, Stonewall and I mean, people here in Rochester
- were saying, we're not going to sit in this bar
- and let the police come in here and intimidate us any more.
- It's just not going to happen.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So we're looking at, probably like,
- fall or winter time when you guys are eventually meeting.
- JOHN GRACE: That's what I would think.
- See, if you look at this--
- now, unfortunately there is no year on that.
- Somebody told me you never put a year on a
- KEVIN INDOVINO: That makes no sense.
- JOHN GRACE: But see, it's October 23rd.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: But do you know if this
- was the first liberation dance?
- JOHN GRACE: Yeah.
- Look at it, it says there.
- EVELYN BAILEY: I believe that was in--
- JOHN GRACE: I think it was '71.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yes, it was in '71.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: That would make sense,
- because you wouldn't throw a dance immedately after forming.
- JOHN GRACE: No.
- And we had the office at the U of R for a while,
- and then put this together.
- EVELYN BAILEY: See, Patti Evans--
- JOHN GRACE: Patti Evans, I was going
- to mention her to you earlier.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Bob Osborne and Larry knew Patti.
- And Bob Osborne wouldn't leave Patti alone,
- and got her to come to a Gay Liberation Front meeting,
- early in 1971--
- maybe mid 1971--
- July maybe.
- And she talks about that first dance
- as being the most wonderful experience of her life.
- JOHN GRACE: See, I believe Patti Evans--
- that flyer I talked about for Midtown Plaza,
- I believe Patti Evans authored that.
- That's what I think.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Is that the flyer
- she also took to the parks?
- Or was that later on?
- That was like '74, I think.
- EVELYN BAILEY: I don't know.
- JOHN GRACE: Well, Patti is still around, isn't she?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
- And we've interviewed her, and we've filmed her actually.
- But that-- the specifics of things are--
- see, no one wrote it down.
- I mean, it is written down, but--
- JOHN GRACE: See, but then you have
- people, which is so strange--
- there is a woman, I don't even know
- if I should give you her name, that I danced
- with at the top of the plaza.
- She was very out.
- But now, she has went way back into the closet.
- And she is a preacher, and has a church somewhere.
- And the last time I saw her, she was like absolutely desperate
- that I didn't tell anybody that she's gay,
- because she had this church.
- And I thought, boy, that's sad.
- She could shed a lot of light on this
- too, because she was my dance partner there.
- Have you spoke with Marge David?
- EVELYN BAILEY: I have.
- Kevin hasn't.
- And Marge thought she'd be able to come today,
- but had a dinner engagement.
- So we're seeing her next week or the following week.
- But she was a part of that.
- JOHN GRACE: Oh, she was part of the whole thing,
- right at the beginning.
- As a matter of fact, her--
- I'm just going to say the woman's name, Liz Bell--
- Elizabeth Bell.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Oh, she's out now.
- NELSON BALDO: Karen said the same thing.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, we talked to her.
- JOHN GRACE: To Liz?
- So Liz is back out again?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
- NELSON BALDO: I think the last time I saw Karen,
- she told me that she had spoken to her.
- JOHN GRACE: OK, she's back out again.
- OK.
- Liz Bell and Marge David were lovers at the time.
- And they lived over in Sanford Street.
- And that's how this whole thing got onto the University
- of Rochester.
- We got introduced to Larry Fine and all of that.
- Through that, we met Patti Evans.
- I mean, it just all happened.
- And I don't think it's a matter of anybody taking
- a lot of credit for anything.
- Yes, Larry-- or Danny, Bjorn, and myself
- got together in his mother's living room.
- But is that really the beginning?
- Who knows.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: It sounds to me like there
- were a couple of things going on at the same time.
- JOHN GRACE: Yeah, there was a lot of things going on.
- And remember, there was no place where we had all of us to meet.
- You didn't go to a gay bar and meet, like,
- Marge and Elizabeth.
- Because they didn't go the same gay bar as I went to,
- and Danny went to.
- Do you know what I'm saying-- and Bjorn went to.
- EVELYN BAILEY: I can throw out names
- to you, such as, yes, well, Whitey, of course.
- Mark Hull.
- JOHN GRACE: Oh, I remember Mark Hull.
- Mark Hull was older, right?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- JOHN GRACE: And he had the place in Bullshead.
- Right, where, yes, okay.
- Is Mark still around?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
- JOHN GRACE: Oh good, OK.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And Jay Baker.
- JOHN GRACE: Jay Baker.
- Jay Baker was a prof at Monroe Community.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Then, he became editor of the Empty Closet.
- JOHN GRACE: Did he really?
- Jay and I had some difficulties.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Whitey LeBlanc twisted his arm, apparently.
- Maybe more than his arm, but I'm not sure.
- JOHN GRACE: Because Jay tried to form a group--
- I forget the name of it.
- It promoted
- NELSON BALDO: Man-boy love, or--
- JOHN GRACE: Man boy love or something like that.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Oh, Amanda?
- JOHN GRACE: Amanda, yeah.
- And I mean--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Roseanne Leipzig.
- JOHN GRACE: You know, I'm not sure.
- EVELYN BAILEY: A fellow by the name of Earl.
- Joseph Johns.
- JOHN GRACE: There, I was trying to think of his name today.
- I was trying to think of Joseph Johns' name
- today before I came over here.
- He was lovers with Dick Recent-- probably still is.
- He was an interior decorator.
- Joseph and I, for some reason, always did
- a lot of speaking engagements together.
- Joseph, myself, and Danny Scipione-- the three of us.
- For some reason, it always happened that way.
- One of the things was, that a lot of people
- didn't want to do speaking engagements,
- because you had to really be out to do it.
- It was almost like an AA meeting.
- You walked in, you sat down, you said your name.
- And you said, "I'm a homosexual, you
- must have a lot of questions, please ask them."
- And you just made your life an open book.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: When you were going out
- on these speaking engagements, who were you talking to?
- What kind of groups were you talking to?
- JOHN GRACE: It was like college groups.
- There were some high-school groups, not many.
- I know they went to--
- Tim Maine set it up to go to Greece Athena, or one
- of the Greece high schools.
- I did not go on that.
- But it didn't go well.
- That was about a riot-- the students freaked out.
- And they ended up having to take the gay speakers
- and get them in the cafeteria, and then
- get them out the back door to a car
- and get them out of town there.
- It just didn't go well.
- But I remember, we did a speaking engagement at the JYO.
- It was a very strange group, I thought.
- It was people in their 40s and 50s.
- And it was a small set of people in their 40s and 50s,
- from some Jewish group.
- And their questions and everything
- were absolutely fascinating.
- I mean, they were all extremely well-thought out questions,
- and everything like that--
- had great conversations with them.
- And it was some kind of study group, whatever,
- within the Jewish community, about homosexuality.
- A couple of them were rabbis.
- But we went wherever we were requested.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Do you remember any particular GLF meetings?
- Say, the meeting at which it was decided--
- when Mark Hull made the offer to go to Brown Street.
- JOHN GRACE: Yeah, I mean, we were being thrown off U of R.
- And the reason we were being thrown out of the U of R
- is, the U of R had figured out that the U of R students that
- belonged with us were just figureheads.
- You know what I mean?
- They were with us so that we could claim that there
- was U of R student presence.
- And they wanted us out of there.
- So, no, I don't remember that meeting,
- but I remember Mark Hull did offer that.
- And I remember going down there and looking at it at one point.
- EVELYN BAILEY: What were the GLF meetings like?
- What did you talk about?
- What was the atmosphere?
- JOHN GRACE: It was very casual.
- I mean, they would sit around very casually,
- like we're doing right here.
- And we discussed.
- A lot of it was social in nature, but we discussed.
- Same when we would man the office--
- because we kept a presence in that office.
- And the reason we were there is, students
- that were having a rough time with being gay
- would come to the office, and we would make contact with them.
- And we were there just to support.
- Like, you're not alone, let's sit and talk about this.
- Here are some resources.
- We had some preachers-- preachers, ministers,
- whatever--
- who were very sympathetic to gay people, that we
- could refer people to, and things like that.
- Also, we had a college professor,
- that actually I took a course from at Monroe Community
- College--
- Joanne Zoofelt. You know Joanne.
- And she was very, very sympathetic
- to the gay movement.
- She was a sociology professor, and she was a good resource
- to send people
- KEVIN INDOVINO: What was her last name again?
- JOHN GRACE: Zoofelt. I think it's Z-O-O-F-E-L-T--
- Joanne.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And were you involved, Nelson,
- also in the GLF?
- NELSON BALDO: No.
- JOHN GRACE: He was in retailing at the time.
- NELSON BALDO: I was trying to build a career.
- JOHN GRACE: He was an assistant manager at Lane Bryant.
- (Laughs)
- KEVIN INDOVINO: You weren't gay.
- (Laughter)
- NELSON BALDO: Guess who I hired to do the windows.
- JOHN GRACE: Oh, you did, didn't you.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Who?
- NELSON BALDO: John.
- He worked with this crazy woman out of New York,
- whose husband was brilliant.
- He was at the U of R. They got fired
- because they turned a mannequin upside down,
- and put an Afro wig on it, and scratched out the pantyhose--
- and went to lunch.
- So much for that job.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So by this time, you guys are partners?
- JOHN GRACE: Oh, yeah.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So while he's off
- doing all his Gay Liberation Front
- stuff, what were your thoughts?
- I know you said you were trying to build
- a career, but any gay activism on your part, or involvement?
- NELSON BALDO: There was involvment.
- I went to that dance.
- But not to the extent that John was involved.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: But from your point of view,
- were you seeing changes in the community?
- Were you seeing the effect of groups
- like John was involved with?
- NELSON BALDO: Yes, I guess I would have to say that.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: If you can expand on it a little.
- How were things changing?
- What were you, from I want to say an almost an outside point
- of view, seeing?
- NELSON BALDO: I was still very much involved with it,
- because that was all our circle of friends.
- But I wasn't certainly doing the speakers bureau,
- or anything like that.
- I just thought at the time, it was more important to not
- be in the news.
- JOHN GRACE: Well, somebody had to earn a living for us.
- I, at that time, had quit Xerox.
- And I was going to school at MCC.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: There was all this activism going on.
- What about your social life?
- Were you still going out to bars?
- JOHN GRACE: Yeah.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: What were the conversations
- like in those days--
- the people you were meeting out at the bars,
- about what was going on in the community?
- JOHN GRACE: Same ones we have today.
- Yeah, I would say the same ones you have today.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: At what point did you guys maybe see
- any change in the way the police were treating you at the bars
- or--?
- JOHN GRACE: Well, I think one of the things that
- made a big difference, was the bars started
- being owned by gay people.
- I mean, up to that point, there was no gay owners.
- Don't you think that made a big change?
- NELSON BALDO: Yeah, when Van Allen and Ducky
- opened that place on Washington Square.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Jim's.
- NELSON BALDO: Was that called Jim's?
- Ducky's an old friend of ours too.
- And yeah, that was different.
- Because I remember coming in there after-- wasn't it
- graduation from somewhere?
- You guys were all in there drunk.
- JOHN GRACE: And that was from MCC.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Van Allen and Ducky,
- are you still close with them?
- JOHN GRACE: I don't believe Van Allen's alive anymore.
- NELSON BALDO: We saw Ducky at my mother's funeral
- a couple of years ago.
- Ducky was up from Florida.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, I'm just trying to get a sense--
- are they planning on coming up again this summer?
- NELSON BALDO: I think so.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Because we need to get them on camera.
- NELSON BALDO: The pharmacist, John Bayer,
- have you talked to him yet?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: No.
- NELSON BALDO: He stays with John Bayer when he comes up here.
- B-A-Y-E-R, isn't it?
- Oh, god.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: B-A-I-R-E, possibly?
- JOHN GRACE: I thought it was B-A-I-R.
- So we got everything going.
- NELSON BALDO: But Ducky stays with him when he comes up.
- JOHN GRACE: I really think that that was the real start
- of a change in Rochester.
- Because first of all, the police never showed up.
- I never saw the police after that show up,
- trying to hustle money from the bars.
- None of that was going on anymore.
- NELSON BALDO: Yeah, it was different.
- Plus, the location of that bar.
- And they were open during the day, so there was nothing--
- JOHN GRACE: It took the seediness out.
- NELSON BALDO: People understood there was nothing nefarious
- going on inside.
- You know, it was just a stupid bar.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Were there many places?
- Or, how did you find other LGBT people?
- How did you connect?
- JOHN GRACE: We had a very large circle
- of friends-- gay friends.
- I mean part of it is through the Gay Liberation Front.
- We just had a large circle of friends.
- And got introduced, and introduced.
- It's just the way it happens.
- There was a picnic, an annual picnic.
- But are you talking about, like if you went
- to another town or something?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Well, no.
- But here in Rochester, were there other resources
- available to you to get involved?
- JOHN GRACE: It was basically all bar centered.
- It really was.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Do you remember the first gay pride picnic?
- Did you attend it?
- JOHN GRACE: I don't think we were here.
- I think we were in California then.
- NELSON BALDO: We used to go to the one in Erie.
- That was always great fun.
- JOHN GRACE: See, we moved to California in '76.
- We went out to San Francisco--
- I think it was '76.
- NELSON BALDO: No, it was earlier than that.
- I'm not good at dates, but I believe
- it was earlier than that.
- JOHN GRACE: We opened the restaurant in '78.
- NELSON BALDO: So we were there almost five years, John--
- in San Francisco.
- JOHN GRACE: See, dates aren't adding up here.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And you had a restaurant in San Francisco?
- NELSON BALDO: No, that's where we got the idea
- for the restaurant, though.
- We took a class from San Francisco State, which was--
- what did they used to call the alternative university?
- Because John took a couple of art courses from it.
- JOHN GRACE: Well, that was San Francisco Art Institute,
- I took my courses from.
- NELSON BALDO: What'd they call it?
- It became part of San Francisco-- anyway,
- I can't remember.
- We took the course it was in the Tenderloin,
- on starting your own business.
- And we had been tossing the idea of opening a restaurant there.
- And we stole it from--
- the name came from Maude's Study,
- which is a famous lesbian bar in San Francisco.
- Which was well run, and kind of a revelation.
- JOHN GRACE: And then, Iggy was his father.
- NELSON BALDO: And my dad got sick with cancer,
- and we decided to come home and help my mother through it.
- And that's how we opened the restaurant.
- But we stole it from there--
- we stole it from Maude's Study.
- EVELYN BAILEY: It became an institution in this community.
- NELSON BALDO: It did.
- You know, I can say that now.
- Many years ago I couldn't, but I understand.
- I'm amazed how many people still remember it.
- It's very gratifying.
- EVELYN BAILEY: It was a great place.
- JOHN GRACE: Well, the great thing about it,
- is it was so cosmopolitan.
- I mean, at any given time, there was everybody there.
- I remember we had a fight there.
- Remember the fight?
- NELSON BALDO: Yeah.
- JOHN GRACE: One night--
- and our lawyer, who was a sweetheart of a guy--
- Jack Schyer, a little Jewish guy.
- God, he had to have been in his late 70s at that time,
- or 80s was our attorney--
- just a sweetheart of a guy.
- And there was a fight there.
- And people left their name for him to contact.
- And they were going to give testimony, whatever, about it.
- And he called us back and said, "Do you
- realize these are all attorneys, judges, congresspeople,
- that sort of thing?"
- And I said, "I knew that was part of our constituency."
- He said, "You know, every one of them is."
- NELSON BALDO: It was fun.
- And I thought recently--
- I was very proud.
- We always wanted to have people of color visible, and in good
- positions.
- We almost always had an Afro American host,
- or hostess in front.
- We always wanted to have black people at the door.
- I thought about that recently.
- JOHN GRACE: Oh, it was very important.
- EVELYN BAILEY: So what did you find when
- you came back to Rochester?
- What did you find in terms of community?
- Or did Iggy's provide you with that community
- in a very, like, secluded or--
- not isolated--
- NELSON BALDO: I think it did provide that
- to us because our first manager came from the Post Office Cafe
- up in Provincetown and that's where our first chef came
- from Peter Siciliano who now works at Madison Square Garden.
- That's another story.
- But that's where a lot of the ideas, and a lot of that help
- came from--
- Cape Cod.
- Because John and I were just like,
- you want to open a restaurant?
- Sure.
- We didn't know anything about it.
- JOHN GRACE: Ever been in a kitchen?
- No.
- NELSON BALDO: That professional side of it,
- we were very lucky to do.
- And those guys were all gay.
- And it required all of our time.
- JOHN GRACE: Well, we came back from San Francisco.
- And we had the house down in Bevary Street--
- it was a double.
- And we had to do some work in one of the apartments.
- So we didn't have a kitchen at that time,
- and we had to eat out.
- Living in the Park Avenue neighborhood,
- we were going to eat in that.
- And all we did was complain about the food
- and we kept looking around and we kept saying to each other
- "Ah, it's really sort of changed around here.
- I mean, there's a lot of BMWs.
- There is a lot of Mercedes, Audis.
- This sort of became snooty-ville."
- And we said, "Why don't we open a restaurant?"
- It just sort of made sense to us.
- And out of that naivete, we did it.
- And I think if we wouldn't have been that naive,
- we wouldn't have done it.
- NELSON BALDO: Probably not.
- Probably not.
- JOHN GRACE: And the interesting thing is, when we started,
- we bought the building.
- And we literally designed it and built it, and then opened it.
- He ran the front.
- I ran the kitchen.
- And I mean, it never occurred to us that we couldn't do that.
- And nobody ever said to us, well,
- you can't do that, because you've never done that.
- Nobody ever said that to us.
- And I think if somebody would have really ever sat down
- and said to us, "You guys, you know,
- have you ever really run a restaurant?
- Have you ever worked in a restaurant?"
- We would have both said, "Oh, no."
- And maybe we wouldn't have done it.
- But nobody ever did that.
- Nelson's mother has worked in a restaurant all her life.
- And I mean, she just encouraged us.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Stepping away from the restaurant
- a little bit--
- kind of going back a little bit.
- In that short period of time that you
- had with the GLF-- the things you were doing.
- What would you say was your biggest accomplishments,
- proudest moment?
- Or your most memorable moment in what
- you were doing for the gay community?
- JOHN GRACE: It would have had to be the speaking engagements.
- It also allowed me to grow the most.
- When you're sitting up there, and the questions you're
- being asked and all that, you have
- to think your way through it--
- you grow.
- You have to grow.
- And that would've been, without a doubt, would have been it.
- Because the other thing is that I would come up with ideas,
- and brainstorm with people-- like,
- to start the Empty Closet.
- There was a whole little group of us
- involved in starting that.
- I never wrote an article.
- That's just not my bent at that time.
- Do you know what I'm saying?
- I went to the-- what was the name of the underground radio
- station, Nelson?
- WCMF.
- I called them one day on a whim, and I went over
- to see the general manager about doing a gay hour.
- And in fact, he was very interested.
- He said, "Yes, let's do that."
- And I went back to GLF and said, I went to see the manager--
- he said, yes, he'd give us an hour week,
- and we can do a gay hour.
- Who's going to do it?
- I'm not gonna.
- Who's going to do it?
- I don't know enough about music.
- I'm not going to do that, but I made the connection.
- So I never really poured myself into stuff like that,
- once I sort of opened my big mouth.
- But the speaking engagements, I attended a lot of them.
- And I really, really enjoyed them.
- And I actually thought that they were
- the thing that made the biggest impact on people.
- Because they had gay people sitting right in front of them,
- saying, ask me whatever you want, please.
- You've got to have 1,000 questions-- throw them at me.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I want to just touch on the radio station
- a little bit more.
- Just kind of get in your mindset at the time.
- What prompted you to do that?
- Why did you think we needed a gay radio show?
- JOHN GRACE: Because there was one in San Francisco when
- I was out there.
- I had went out to San Francisco just as a lark way back when,
- and they had one out there.
- And I thought, well, if you're going to do it, do it.
- And it was to make announcements and all that.
- But I still think that the biggest thing that we did
- was the speaking engagements.
- Because until then, people had never seen gay people.
- They just had never seen them.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Well, had seen them--
- not known.
- JOHN GRACE: And a lot of times, it
- was making them deal with us.
- Because a lot of it became very, very contentious too.
- I can remember standing up and having screaming matches
- with people in the audience.
- You know, one of those, you will not talk to me that way.
- EVELYN BAILEY: So you had Iggy's for how long?
- NELSON BALDO: Thirteen years.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And what was your next entrepreneurial?
- JOHN GRACE: Well, we had never built houses.
- So we went to Watertown and built houses--
- seriously.
- NELSON BALDO: We had a dealership for modular housing,
- and we worked out of Watertown.
- JOHN GRACE: We built thirty-six homes.
- NELSON BALDO: And we did sales and marketing
- for Madison Barracks in Sackets Harbor, New York.
- John taught-- we had a real estate school.
- I think that's it for Watertown.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: That's the most excitement Watertown's ever
- had.
- JOHN GRACE: They had a gay bar.
- NELSON BALDO: Oh, I know.
- We were out all the time.
- In fact, the gentleman who owned Sackets Harbor.
- They were redoing it.
- Madison Barracks was used through World War II--
- I think from the Revolutionary War.
- And they kept asking us if we would come on board
- to do sales and marketing.
- John, finally one night-- you told Mike, didn't you?
- He said Mike, "We're gay."
- He said, "I knew that," or something.
- JOHN GRACE: Yeah, so what?
- The sun rises in the morning, was his attitude.
- NELSON BALDO: So we ended up doing that too.
- We've always been--
- I've never been closeted, I don't believe.
- JOHN GRACE: I don't think either one of us have ever been.
- NELSON BALDO: Everyone knew we were always a couple.
- JOHN GRACE: And I think that made an extreme difference
- with us.
- I've never-- I don't know about you--
- but I've never really felt discrimination.
- NELSON BALDO: We're down in the Catskills now in this town--
- I don't know how people in the town.
- JOHN GRACE: 250.
- NELSON BALDO: They all know we're gay.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: You're the talk of the town.
- NELSON BALDO: We are, I'm sure of it.
- But you know what, those farmers stop by, and we chat with them.
- And you know, it's great.
- JOHN GRACE: It's so casual, I don't know if we really are.
- I really don't.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, it's that undertone
- of all those other people talking to each other.
- "Oh yeah, we know them, they're good friends."
- It's that kind of thing.
- It's, like, trendy now.
- "We're a hip town now, we have gay people."
- JOHN GRACE: "Have you seen what those fags have done now?"
- Because we're always doing a lot of changes to our house,
- you know what I mean?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: You're their entertainment, really.
- JOHN GRACE: And of course, down there, there
- is the Beekman Boys.
- Did you ever hear of them?
- NELSON BALDO: Those boys are having their say.
- They're out of Sharon Springs.
- And there is a television channel.
- It's either the Green Channel, or the Echo-something Channel.
- And they're doing a reality show with these guys
- out of New York.
- They came up, they bought a farm, and they bought a house.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, the reality show was on last year.
- I don't think it's on any more.
- I think it went down the tubes.
- NELSON BALDO: But people who've seen it just love it,
- and they tell us about it.
- And they have a shop in Sharon Springs, which
- we drive through all the time.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, because one was a city boy,
- and the other one wanted to be a farmer.
- NELSON BALDO: You know, these little gazettes down there--
- there was a picture of like a Memorial Day
- parade or something.
- And it showed one of the guys with all these schoolchildren.
- And he was teaching them to do the model walk, strutting down
- the street.
- And I said, you have to be kidding me.
- It was so fun.
- These little farm kids--
- I could not believe it.
- EVELYN BAILEY: The lastest dance.
- NELSON BALDO: One of my friends from Eastman loves them.
- That's all she talked about.
- And she said they stopped at the shop,
- and they saw one of the boys out on the porch.
- She said, I ran up to them like I was a little girl.
- Because she was so excited--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, because he opened up a little country
- store or something, right?
- NELSON BALDO: Yeah.
- And it's everything made out of the goat--
- cheese and soap and God knows what.
- And I still haven't seen that show.
- I'm very anxious to see it.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I forget which-- it's the Learning
- Channel, or something.
- I caught it about a year ago, but I think
- it only lasted one season.
- NELSON BALDO: I'd love to see it.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Or it was on Logo.
- It was either on Logo or--
- Maybe it was on Logo.
- JOHN GRACE: But you know, when we lived up in Sackets Harbor
- that whole town knew we were gay, and a gay couple.
- And there was a point, they were trying
- to get me to run for mayor of the town.
- And it's like, what is going on?
- Is there something in the water up here?
- The fact that we were a gay couple
- didn't matter to anybody.
- I've never felt discrimination about it.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Speaking of being in the water, it is now 2012.
- And in 1969, the thought of domestic partnership
- was, like, way out there.
- Did you ever think in your lifetime you
- would see marriage equality?
- JOHN GRACE: Never.
- Never ever.
- And you know, Danny Scipione he's dead now.
- But Danny used to always say to me,
- the purpose of what we're doing, is to not be needed anymore.
- And I mean, it's really the truth if you think about it.
- I absolutely never thought marriage equality
- would come around.
- And for the President of the United States
- to stand up and say, I support marriage equality--
- NELSON BALDO: It is amazing.
- JOHN GRACE: --I think that's absolutely stunning.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I liked how he pushed Joe Biden in the water
- first.
- JOHN GRACE: Yeah, me too.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Feel it out for me first.
- JOHN GRACE: I don't think most people realize that,
- but I'm sure that's what happened.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: That's exactly what happened.
- Here, Joe, you jump in first, and let me know if it's OK.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Come from national to local--
- how has Rochester changed?
- NELSON BALDO: I think it's changed incredibly.
- I think what you just said, about the need for things.
- I think gay bars are going by the wayside.
- It's really different, which I find sad, actually.
- I don't think we should be like everyone else.
- JOHN GRACE: I absolutely agree with you there.
- It's one of the things that I have a concern for.
- I used to always say--
- even at the speaking engagements,
- I would say this a lot.
- That when you live outside of your culture--
- you're forced to live outside of your culture--
- you get insight into the culture.
- And when you sort of get pulled into it,
- and just massed into it and you're just part of it,
- it's just all one big same.
- And I think that one of the reasons--
- and gay people have through the generations been so creative--
- is because they've had to live beyond bounds.
- Am I making sense to you?
- And it's one of the things that I sort of hope doesn't happen.
- NELSON BALDO: But I think it is.
- I think there are groups of elitist professional people,
- whatever.
- And they pretty much will stay with their own set.
- There's not that great mix going on,
- where you end up with a construction
- worker and a university professor as lovers.
- And I think that's sad.
- I really see that going away.
- JOHN GRACE: Oh, I agree with you.
- See, one of the other things I think
- is that one of the strengths of gay people always had was
- if something came up and I needed some help with something
- or I needed to find out about something or something
- like that I knew somebody that was
- gay that was either doing that job or knew somebody that was.
- It was just this incredible grapevine.
- And like he's saying, I don't think that's happening now.
- I almost never knew anybody who lived
- in the suburbs who was gay--
- closeted yeah, but not gay.
- And now-- I've got a lot of friends
- that are interested in adopting children.
- I mean, that is OK for them.
- But I don't know, nothing that ever interested me.
- Being married-- I mean, we could be married right now.
- Why?
- What was the advantage?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I would say legal protections,
- but that's for you guys to decide.
- JOHN GRACE: Well, we've done all that with attorneys.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, but without that marriage
- certificate, either one of your families could come in
- and say, oh, no, they weren't married,
- so we're going to fight that.
- JOHN GRACE: My family, first of all--
- they're all crazy.
- They haven't got the brains to do it.
- His family would never do it.
- NELSON BALDO: I think financially
- that that would be our decision.
- Financially, if it made sense.
- JOHN GRACE: But now that you've touched on that,
- his family has always been incredible.
- From day one, they have just accepted me as Nelson's mate.
- His family has just been that way.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: When you came back from San Francisco,
- I know you were busy with the restaurant and all that.
- Did you participate in any-- did you
- march in a gay pride parade?
- Did you go to any of the gay tea dances,
- or any of the AIDS dining for dollars fundraisers?
- NELSON BALDO: Oh, yeah, went to almost all of those
- JOHN GRACE: Well, you had to, to run the restaurant too.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: But mainly, you were just kind of focused
- on your business, it seems.
- NELSON BALDO: And we helped out for dinners
- that friends of ours had.
- We cooked, and got it together for that.
- JOHN GRACE: And like, when Tim Mains was running for--
- what was he running for that time?
- City council, yeah.
- We did all the catering and donated all that
- for the events.
- Edgy, even that.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, how was that?
- Was it because he was the first gay candidate
- that you were supporting him?
- Or were you supporting him because--
- NELSON BRANDO: He was an old friend.
- JOHN GRACE: Yeah, Tim was also an extremely old friend
- NELSON BALDO: But absolutely believed in what he was doing.
- JOHN GRACE: Oh, sure.
- NELSON BALDO: Timmy used to hand out towels at the health club--
- I can't remember which one, don't tell him.
- JOHN GRACE: The one right there on--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Liberty Pole Way?
- NELSON BALDO: No, Legitimate Club, downstairs.
- The old Catholic--
- JOHN GRACE: Yeah, we both belonged to it.
- We could actually walk from Iggy's up to it
- during our breaks, and back.
- EVELYN BAILEY: When you hear, or come in contact
- with young people today, is your sense
- that their life is easier, better than what you growing up
- had to deal with?
- NELSON BALDO: I think it's much easier.
- JOHN GRACE: Much easier,
- NELSON BALDO: Yeah, absolutely.
- JOHN GRACE: And young people today have the most incredible,
- wonderful outlook.
- It doesn't matter to them.
- They truly have just the most amazing outlook.
- It doesn't matter to them.
- NELSON BALDO: I mean, there's still a lot of hatred
- out there, of course.
- But still, I think it's much easier now.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, they see it on TV every day now.
- JOHN GRACE: Yeah, they see it on TV.
- I think most of today's people, the youth of today,
- have admitted that they are basically bisexual.
- I mean, I'm from a small farming community.
- And let me tell you something, just about every one
- of the boys out there slept with another boy.
- That's just the way it happened.
- That's reality, that's life.
- And I think the youth of today, instead of ignoring
- that, they're dealing with it.
- They're saying, yeah, well, so what.
- NELSON BALDO: I don't know John.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I think they're still
- keeping it very much secret.
- JOHN GRACE: You think so?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I think the majority are, yeah.
- Because there's still that society
- out there, that's telling them it's wrong.
- NELSON BALDO: It's easier, but it's still tough.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Well, I think the process of coming out
- has not changed.
- Internally, the process is the same.
- And you have got to come to grips with claiming and owning
- who you are, and then being out with that to whomever.
- JOHN GRACE: But imagine in today's world--
- not everyone, but in today's world
- it's discussed in our home.
- Do you know what I mean?
- And it's not some kind of a really horrible secret.
- When I was young, you were young, it was absolutely taboo.
- It was never discussed.
- The old expression, I am the person my parents warned me
- about, is true.
- That is true.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Well, I think sex was never discussed.
- JOHN GRACE: Never.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: It was a five-minute conversation
- you had with your father at some point.
- EVELYN BAILEY: But I think we're looking
- at a geographic anomaly.
- In other words, I think here in the North--
- and north of the Mason-Dixon line--
- there may be more of a sense of freedom with that.
- But if you go south--
- NELSON BRANDO: I agree.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Look at North Carolina.
- JOHN GRACE: I think the southern people are crazy.
- EVELYN BAILEY: you're not going to find
- that same kind of openness, within or without families.
- JOHN GRACE: Yeah, go to Texas, same thing.
- EVELYN BAILEY: So I think here in New York,
- we have been liberated in many more ways than in other places.
- JOHN GRACE: But what you know what I can't explain,
- Iowa legalizing gay marriage--
- Iowa.
- Does that make sense?
- EVELYN BAILEY: They spend all their time in the corn fields.
- JOHN GRACE: Does that make sense to anybody in this room?
- It doesn't to me.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I think maybe Iowans were just
- sending a-- shock the rest of the country.
- It's like, OK, let's do something really outrageous.
- EVELYN BAILEY: I see Iowa as much more Midwestern
- than Southern or Northeastern.
- JOHN GRACE: But the Midwestern are very evangelical.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Not my experience.
- I look at Illinois, and I look at Chicago--
- and I look at the Minneapolis, and Minnesota-- and I
- see two things.
- One, there is a breadth of experience
- in those areas that requires an expansion of mind,
- and ability to embrace diversity--
- all kinds of diversity.
- And two, they have somehow separated themselves
- from the negativity of the South,
- and have moved more toward the Sunshine State of California
- and the free expression of whatever.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: True.
- And when you think about the South and the Bible Belt,
- you don't typically think of Iowa included in that.
- So there's probably a lot more progressive people living there
- than we would know of.
- NELSON BALDO: Our favorite nephews are from Iowa.
- They're due for their annual visit next month.
- I never asked that about that.
- JOHN GRACE: A lot of what you're saying that farming
- communities.
- And I mean, I have always discovered this.
- Farming communities are really very liberal,
- as far as sexuality goes.
- Because that's how they make their living,
- is their animals reproducing.
- And it's a very sexual thing that they do.
- And within the animal world--
- and the human world too--
- they see that same-sex couple.
- They see it.
- It happens.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: That'd be an interesting study.
- EVELYN BAILEY: That's an interesting perspective.
- I think it's more likely that in a farming community
- you have to depend upon your neighbors.
- And you have to depend upon the people who live around you--
- in terms of disaster, in terms of help, in terms of floods.
- In terms of tornadoes, in terms of hurricanes, in terms of--
- and you are much more subject to God, and the weather,
- and the climate.
- Because a bad rainy season, and your crops go whoosh.
- JOHN GRACE: When I was a kid in that small community
- of Walworth-- first of all, most people realized I was gay.
- Because I happened to have been a little
- effeminate at that time, and most people realized I was gay.
- Secondly, in our community, we had several women who--
- I mean, they dressed in men's clothing, they had men's jobs.
- And everybody used to say about them,
- they don't need a man to fix their washing machine.
- That was the attitude, they don't need a man
- to fix their washing machine.
- Did they have an active lover that they
- were living with-- no.
- EVELYN BAILEY: But there have been many city women--
- lesbians-- who have made the mistake
- of assuming that the country women are gay.
- NELSON BALDO: Oh, I'm sure, absolutely.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Because they have had
- to do the work in farming and so forth,
- doesn't mean that they are.