Audio Interview, Kathryn Rivers, April 27, 2012

EVELYN BAILEY: So, we're here with Katherine Rivers

who was one of the original members of Lambda at Kodak.

And we really are interested in finding out how all that began.

Why did a group of people decide to form Lambda at Kodak?

What prompted you to begin a group to form it?

And what your experience was in getting that created

and in moving it forward to continue.

KATHRYN RIVERS: OK.

I wasn't early, early, on, but what I understand and I'm sure

Emily has filled you in that there actually were two groups.

Her and Chuck had talked about getting a group going and then

David and Dan and, I think, Gary was another,

they were sort of talking about getting a group growing.

At what Kodak already had in place, was,

they had a African-American network, which

was Network Nurser, they had a women's network, Women's Forum,

they had a rather recently formed Native American network.

So they were in the network business.

And so, well, let's have a gay network, right?

And so there were a couple small conversations going on.

And David Kosel will fill you in,

because he actually got hooked up

with one of the executives that kind of got the dialogue going.

And once that dialogue happened, see,

I didn't know anything about this.

I'm sitting in my office and I'm sharing a cubicle wall

with the IT guy for the department

and people were in and out of his office all day long.

So I'm just over there doing work and somebody comes in,

storming in, just, "You're not going

to believe this I just found out that Kodak

is going to have a gay group and they won't even

have a veterans group."

And I thought, well, this is pretty

interesting, let me go see if I can check it out.

So I did.

And then I met Emily and David Kosel

and Dan and Chuck and Gary.

And so, they had a steering group going.

They had just kind of pulled together.

They had found each other because

EVELYN BAILEY: They should never have (unintelligible) her.

KATHRYN RIVERS: this executive kind

to helped get the dialogue going.

Then all of a sudden, these two groups that

didn't know each other got connected

because she facilitated this.

She was in the executive development area, by the way.

EVELYN BAILEY: Who was this?

KATHRYN RIVERS: I believe her name is Sue Connelly.

And David can fill you in quite a bit with her.

And she's another one that I think it would be good to,

maybe, get her on record.

But you'd need to get her permission to do that,

if somebody knew how to get in touch with her

because she's gone too.

A lot of people who were instrumental in the network

don't work at the company.

One of the vice presidents is deceased at this point.

So, you know, it wouldn't be as easy

as it would be a while back.

Anyhow, the group had a steering committee.

And the company said, well, we need

to have bylaws and a mission statement and just

some basic things.

I remember those two things I worked on.

And you know, we'll help you.

And what was interesting, though,

was it became clear that some of the vice presidents

had some discretionary money and they

would support some of the networks in different ways,

of course.

And they liked that.

They gave scholarship money that the Native Americans

could use for their projects and stuff like this.

Well, we didn't have anything.

And I mean nothing.

So Emily helped bankroll the first event, which

was bringing Deb Price to town.

And we

EVELYN BAILEY: Who was Deb Price?

KATHRYN RIVERS: Deb Price was a columnist,

and she worked for the Washington Post, I believe.

And she had a weekly column on gay stuff,

just whatever was in the news or she wanted to talk about.

Kind of like an editorial columnist.

So we brought her to town, basically to raise

some money for the network.

This is a great story, by the way.

I don't know, KEVIN INDOVINO, you've

probably heard this story.

KEVIN INDOVINO: I either heard it or, actually, I was there.

I was there for one of the Deb Price events,

but I don't know if it was the first one.

KATHRYN RIVERS: Well, here's the fall-out

that happened afterwards.

So we brought her to town and she actually

spoke at a church downtown and people bought tickets.

And we actually did get some money

to have the network have some operating money.

And since Deb Price was a columnist in the DNC.

The DNC was very interested in her coming to town,

and called Emily up in her office and talked about, well,

you know, what's Kodak doing with Deb Price?

And so Emily talked about having a fundraiser.

The next day in the newspaper, it

talks about Kodak having a fundraiser.

And I got to tell you, there are people

in corporate communications Kodak

is a company that makes money, it's not

supposed to have fundraisers.

And there are people having their coffee in the morning who

work in the communication department going,

what the hell's going on?

So, the you know what hit the fan.

And by the end of the day, some people

had figured out who talked to who and what happened.

And we immediately got training on how to talk to the press.

We also got money, and there was an organization

developed under HR to say, all right, how

are the networks treated?

Can we be a little bit more equitable

with different kinds of sponsorships and funding

for the networks?

So even though it started out bad, it turned out really good.

EVELYN BAILEY: Why did this group come together?

I mean, just because you've got an African-American network

and a woman's network, why did you want to form a gay network?

KATHRYN RIVERS: Well, I can't speak for everyone,

but for me, personally, Kodak was changing as a company.

When I first started working there, I was in my early 20s.

It was a very conservative company, and practices

and you could just tell.

I mean, they had a history of you

know, their hiring history was somewhat difficult.

Their equal opportunity, they hadn't done a great job

with being fair with hiring people.

And so, Kodak was growing and changing.

And I was thinking there was potential to make

the workplace more comfortable, and people feel, you know,

like you belong there.

Because I remember going to some of the benefits meetings

and saying, oh, we take care of our employees

and their families.

And I'm thinking, well, not exactly, but, you know.

So they envisioned themselves as a very caring, nurturing, kind

of paternalistic company.

OK.

And the other thing I found out, after I heard about

that there's going to be a gay group over the wall,

was, I went and I checked the company's policies,

and in there was sexual orientation.

There was a clause about, we do not discriminate.

It had been in there for quite a while.

And I went, wow, I don't know how that happened.

So I'm thinking, all right, well, supposedly I'm protected.

The company has been clear with their policies

and I think there's room for the company to expand, you know,

on their path.

And so that's why I got involved.

Now, other people got involved because they wanted benefits.

You know, they'd say, well, you've

got to talk to upper management.

You have to demand these things.

And that was a line we couldn't cross,

because we're not a union and we don't negotiate

collective bargaining rights.

This network is voluntary and it was educational

and we were there to support other workers.

And we did do some of that.

I remember workers calling.

There was a woman who worked in a machine shop

and she just got treated really roughly.

And you know, we tried to help with talking to her supervision

to say, maybe there's better ways

to handle some of these issues.

So we played roles there but, we weren't

an official organization within the company

and we couldn't act like one.

It's extracurricular.

All the networks had to, really, behave that way.

EVELYN BAILEY: Did you find opposition?

Like, after the Deb price thing and the

KATHRYN RIVERS: Yes?

EVELYN BAILEY: hullaballoo, was that the first it wasn't

the first educational event?

KATHRYN RIVERS: No.

That was prior to any event we held within the company.

That this was external.

So yes, it was before.

EVELYN BAILEY: So how did you gain such credibility?

Such a status whereby you were valued and listened to?

KATHRYN RIVERS: Well, it took a while.

I would say, initially, there was a lot of pushback,

especially when this hit the paper.

And there were employees that wrote some pretty nasty stuff

to HR people.

And stupid stuff, I mean.

Stuff that they could probably get fired for,

for talking the way they did, because all this stuff

is on their email that they just sent to somebody.

So there was a lot of I don't know a lot,

but there was enough.

As one of the HR people said, it was

kind of like a barometric reading of how the company was.

And the fact that there was such a strong negative response

probably from a few people, but it was pretty strong

was an indicator that we need to do something.

So again, something good comes out

of something that didn't sound too good, initially.

We needed to kind of get our own group together first

before we had any big events.

And the other networks had done, Women's Forum had

done what they called an educational event,

and, you know, brought in a guest speaker, nationally,

and maybe 400 people were there.

And so they'd already done the big splashy thing,

but we were still growing.

And we needed to, sort of, get the membership kind

of cleaned up in, the sense that, this

is what the network is, this is what we're for.

If you're here because you want to demand benefits,

we can't do that for you, so maybe you

need to take your energies elsewhere.

So we had to go through this.

We had to talk about what we're about

and, what's the value of the network for employees?

And for employees who weren't going to be out.

And can employees who aren't out be part of our network?

You know, we had a lot of discussions around this.

Could they be on the board?

Well, eventually we said yes.

But after a while that issue did, somewhat fade away.

But nonetheless, these were things

we just had to talk through.

KEVIN INDOVINO INDOVINO: So, I just want to jump back.

From your understanding, what was

what is, still the core mission of Lambda at Kodak?

EVELYN BAILEY: Oh, my gosh.

You're gonna ask this?

KATHRYN RIVERS: Let's see.

It's really about equity, professional advancement,

independent of sexual orientation or gender

expression.

And that was another one we fought for,

to get your gender expression in there,

so that people could be who they are and they could grow

their careers, and it wasn't a detriment,

they didn't have to worry.

And a lot of nice things about people

learning how you know, it's not just being out, you know?

For example, people in management positions

or any type of supervisory position,

they're often, kind of, judged around who

they are on a personal level.

And if you're a mystery and nobody knows who you are,

you could be not considered for one of those positions.

So in my answer to the question, I maybe

got a little off base, here.

But those were the issues, and we

tried to craft a mission statement to support that.

Excuse me.

KEVIN INDOVINO: It's all right.

Sit.

Sit.

Sit.

Sit.

EVELYN BAILEY: Pie, sit.

Pie, sit.

Sit.

Good, lie down.

Does she know, lie down?

KATHRYN RIVERS: Or just down.

EVELYN BAILEY: Down.

Down.

KATHRYN RIVERS Well, if you can, ignore her.

She just loves both of you, I can tell.

I don't know what's going on here.

Off.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Down, off.

KATHRYN RIVERS: You're being recorded for posterity, here,

so stop it.

All right, I'm going to get her over here.

You're going to stay with me.

OK.

KEVIN INDOVINO: But some of the things

that you talked about, just even within the mission statement

equity in the workplace, professional advancement

and all that that stuff is borderline union.

How did you keep the balance, as far as, OK, we're

not asking for benefits, but we're asking for some?

KATHRYN RIVERS: It was all about education,

and that's what our educational events were about.

So they weren't mandatory.

Most of the time, about half of the people who showed up

were from management or HR.

But what we were trying to do is educate

on the issues for LGBT employees and how

the workplace could be better.

But we didn't have a list of demands, we didn't say,

this is what you have to do.

We had no bargaining.

There wasn't any bargaining going on here.

So I think that that was the difference.

And you could get into a gray area,

but you didn't want to keep pushing it that way.

So it was important to not, you know,

get demanding, so our banner was education.

EVELYN BAILEY: Did you have meetings for the group?

KATHRYN RIVERS: Yes.

EVELYN BAILEY: For the network?

KATHRYN RIVERS: Yes.

We had monthly meetings for all the members.

We also had a steering committee meeting that would meet.

And again, that steering committee

was trying to grow the network.

And then, at some point, we had elections.

President, President-elect, and Secretary, Treasurer, you

know, things I forget.

Then a network person who was in charge of communications.

EVELYN BAILEY: And that covered everyone at Kodak?

Like from top down?

Because there were two very different groups.

I mean, there was the manufacturing side of Kodak,

and then there was the management or the

KATHRYN RIVERS: Professional side.

EVELYN BAILEY: Professional side.

KATHRYN RIVERS: And there was pay differences, and class

differences, and all of that within those groups.

Definitely.

In fact, in Kodak lingo, there were

cell one, which were the hourly manufacturing,

and then there's cell two, with the professional, management,

engineers, scientists.

EVELYN BAILEY: Did you find both groups

open to becoming involved in the network, in Lambda at Kodak?

KATHRYN RIVERS: We were heavy on the professional side.

Yeah.

Maybe 10% were non-professional, or hourly manufacturing.

So sometimes it would be, well, what's in it for me?

And, I'm never going to be out at work.

So I do think the safety in the work environment,

it was less in the manufacturing areas.

Now, we had a machinist who was a Vietnam veteran

and he was out and I'll tell you,

nobody was going to mess with him.

Nice guy, but if you get my face, you'll be sorry.

So some of that's just personal, you know, their personalities.

But on the whole, it was more professional people

who were out.

EVELYN BAILEY: Was there a lot of fear in coming out?

In being out among the professional staff?

KATHRYN RIVERS: I'd say, over time, it was less.

Now what part of it was, that the educational events,

we really, especially the first ones, we worked hard on those

and we got a good reputation.

In fact, people said they'd rather

go to some of our events.

We put on skits, we brought national speakers,

I mean, we did a nice job and actually put on a nice show.

But it was an educational event.

And we also, one of the things is, don't get preachy.

We are just offering information and we'll

do it in as entertaining and, you know, interesting way as we

can.

And that's it.

So, after about the third year of doing this,

we had a good enough reputation that other people

started showing up.

They feel a little more comfortable, it was good.

OK.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Did the initial meetings with Lambda

and the initial development of Lambda,

did that start under Kay Whitmore?

Or was George Fisher already?

KATHRYN RIVERS: That started under Kay Whitmore.

KEVIN INDOVINO: And did you notice any difference

in the change of command?

KATHRYN RIVERS: Oh, yeah.

Night and day.

And to Kay Whitmore's credit and David

could speak better to this than I can, but he

did approve of the network, said OK, we'll have one.

And he took quite a bit of heat.

The company would have, maybe two or three times a year,

a town hall meeting.

And so, they had the huge auditorium,

building twenty-eight on Ridge Road, there, and filled it up.

And the CEO, and the COO, and CFO

would all sit there on stools and they'd

do a Q&A. First of all, they'd do a presentation update,

then the Q&A. And there were quite a few people that

got up during Kay Whitmore's time

and told them they just thought this was wrong and you know.

So I know that.

Other feedback he probably got in other ways, too.

But anyways, he stood firm and said,

no we will have this network.

Then George Fisher comes to town.

Now, we still have a steering committee.

So the network is still trying to figure out who we are,

what our principles are, the membership,

and what are we doing for members?

What are we doing for the company?

So George Fisher shows up and it was

like the parting of the seas.

He brought a strong sense of people development

from Motorola.

And it was clear, you know, when you talked at meetings,

With first speakings to the employees

at large, first talks.

And then, coincidentally, we were just

saying, we need to have one of these flashy, big,

events like the other networks are having.

So we're going to call it the educational event,

and we were working with the assistant

to the CEO at the time, his name was Dave Swift.

And so, we had started talking to him,

George Fisher was on board, and yeah, I'll

help you however we can.

What do we need to do?

And he knew there were certain people

in the company, Vice-presidents, that didn't

think this was a good idea.

But here's somebody working right next to the CEO

and this is the grooming position,

somebody gets in there for a year or two

and they do all kinds of stuff so he was very helpful

and we got this thing going.

And it was clear that oh, and we had set a date.

Here, this is important.

For the first one, our very first event,

and it turns out that George Fisher had to be out of town

on company business and he couldn't be there.

And we all decided we better not have

this without George Fisher because he was very supportive,

and if he wasn't there that would be a signal.

So what happened, at the very first event

and we didn't have a lot of money to rent a big hall,

so we rented a room at the Burgundy Basin,

so, what we could afford.

And brought in a good speaker, Elizabeth Birch,

and she didn't even charge a fee.

She was just very happy to come and do it.

And we're all there, and lined up at the bar

are all the managers.

(laughs)

And the rest of us are over here, talking.

EVELYN BAILEY: They need a drink to deal with this.

(laughter)

KATHRYN RIVERS: There was a lot of drinking

going on in that room.

(laughs)

So they're over there, and we're all worrying about,

got everything ready, and, who's going to do our program,

we're all set to go.

We did some vignettes, it was a lot of fun.

EVELYN BAILEY: Was George Fisher there?

KATHRYN RIVERS: Well, George Fisher

showed up before the event but, kind of right at the time,

you know, maybe ten, fifteen minutes ahead of time.

EVELYN BAILEY: But he wasn't out of town?

KATHRYN RIVERS: No, it got rescheduled, sorry.

We decided it was so important we had to reschedule.

So we were going to have it in November,

I think we ended up in the spring March, April, something.

So anyways, he walks in, Ann Fisher, his wife walks in.

And I'll tell you, if you wanted a role

model of how to work a room and how to treat people well,

those two did it.

And he walked around and he shook people's hands.

And Ann Fisher separately walked around and shook people's hands

and talked.

And she came up to me and she said,

and we have this dimension of diversity in our family.

I said, wow.

And everybody's watching.

And that's the power of when somebody like that kind of

knows how to behave and set the tone for everyone else.

That was really amazing.

So, yeah, George Fisher is key, was key, being the CEO.

And he was very strong and supportive of everyone,

by the way.

But he didn't say, you know, the African-Americans

and the Women's Network and whatever, or the others.

You know, he would make sure he mentioned everyone.

EVELYN BAILEY: So, what happened at that first event?

Or, that first educational night with Cindy Birch?

KATHRYN RIVERS: One of the key things

that happened Elizabeth Birch.

EVELYN BAILEY: Elizabeth Birch.

KATHRYN RIVERS: One of the things that happened afterwards

and I do believe the event was well

received-- we did some skits and they were kind of funny.

And people, by the end of the evening, everybody,

the whole room had just chilled out.

Everybody looked relaxed and it was really nice.

And then George Fisher said to Mike Morley who

was Vice President of HR he's the one who's

deceased right now, or, no longer with us he

said, why don't we revisit the benefits issue?

Nobody asked George, that night, to do that.

In fact, we were all really nobody

was going to ask him anything like that.

But he volunteered and he asked his Vice President of HR.

And one thing that I found out later again,

these are things that just, kind of behind the scenes

and you don't always know but the person who

was the logical choice to work on the benefits package

and update it, was not going to like doing it.

It was just understood that if you asked him,

he wasn't going to have his heart in it.

He didn't want it to happen.

So what the Vice President did, is,

he asked someone else who wasn't an obvious choice.

He says, I want you to take on this project.

And you investigate the costs.

And you investigate, you know, compare

it to what other companies have done and we'll make a decision.

So these are kind of big things and you don't always

know they're happening.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Eventually, domestic partnership benefits

got passed at Kodak, right?

KATHRYN RIVERS: It did.

It was a policy decision.

And so, and at that point, I don't know

if there was a lot of pushback.

But when that year's package came out, usually, in the fall,

like around October or November, here's

your options for your benefits and health.

And by the way, domestic partner.

And if you have a domestic partner,

you'll need to make a phone call.

Because first of all, you needed to sign a document.

And some of the things had to be done manually,

they couldn't be done automated.

But nonetheless, it was all out there.

And I don't recall hearing much pushback after that.

I think anybody who had had a hard time either

had vented their feelings or left, or whatever.

But it seemed like that kind of was a turning point, that there

wasn't a lot of pushback.

I mean, there were still things that happened.

And crude things get said here and there and all that, but.

KEVIN INDOVINO: What's your most memorable experience

in your entire history with the Lambda network?

KATHRYN RIVERS: Well I would say the first event.

I say, there was such a case corporate nerves around that.

And getting through that and having it go well,

that really just set the tone for everything else.

So that's my favorite, favorite memory.

Yeah.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Jump forward to the 21st century, Lambda

Network now.

Again, what is it's core mission now?

I mean, is it still the same mission

as it was when it first started?

KATHRYN RIVERS: Well, I don't think they've changed.

I haven't heard any specifics around.

And I did stay involved for about two,

three years after I left.

But at this point, I feel like I'm not connected enough

to the company to be valuable either way,

for their time or my time.

So it's much smaller.

There are no big events.

I don't think any of the networks do that anymore.

I mean, everyone's focus is very different now.

You know, it's just keeping your job, it's

EVELYN BAILEY: Survival.

KATHRYN RIVERS: what shape is the company in?

And then we'll see.

Nobody, you know, we'll see how it goes.

So I really can't say if there's any push back, if,

because people are stressed, if there is more problems.

Now, I know you are going to talk

to Dan Sapper I think he'd be a good person

to ask that question of.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Definitely.

You had a question?

EVELYN BAILEY: During this whole experience,

were you at all afraid of ramifications, personally?

Or did you experience any negativity,

or co-workers coming up to you saying,

what the hell are you doing?

KATHRYN RIVERS: No.

Nothing overt.

In fact, I mean, you never know if, somehow somebody may

make a decision against you.

But they won't tell you if they got

an issue with your orientation.

But a lot of people were positive.

I did a couple of things.

One is, I went and I talked to my immediate supervisor.

No, he wasn't my immediate supervisor.

Yes he was.

Well, I changed a couple times, we had these reorganizations,

so, sometimes you weren't sure who you were working for.

But anyways, at the time I don't think I was,

but I knew he was good friends with the department head, which

was his boss.

And I said Bill, I said, you know, this is who I am.

And I'm going to do some things with the network, Lambda

Network, and I'm going to talk to the division director.

Because I don't want them being blindsided.

So, if someone comes stumbling in their office,

at least they're prepared.

(growling)

Yes?

Hi, there.

OK, well, I'll give you a little more room.

So I had lunch with

(barking)

Bill and told them what was going on.

And I said, I'm going to go talk to Dave,

just so he knows, you know, that I'm

going to be doing these things and I'll have some visibility,

just so you know.

And as far as I can tell, they were both appreciative

of those conversations and I never heard anything else.

EVELYN BAILEY: So, at Kodak, it sounds like you were never

really afraid to be out or to be identified with this group.

KATHRYN RIVERS: But let me say something.

And no, I wasn't.

But there was already some support and some structure

in place to fall back on.

And that's important.

So it wasn't like, out of the blue

I decided to go in and talk to the Vice President of Human

Relations and say, you know, this company really

needs some help in this area.

You know, I mean, I didn't do that by myself,

so that's important.

And there were also, again, protections

in the company policy that they had a nondiscrimination

clause and sexual orientation was in there.

EVELYN BAILEY: And so?

KATHRYN RIVERS: So was I afraid?

No, I wasn't.

But I'd also say I had the comfort

of having some of these protections in place

before I got involved.

EVELYN BAILEY: Do you have any sense of how the manufacturing

piece of Kodak felt?

I know, at one point, Donna Redwing

do you remember Donna Redwing?

KATHRYN RIVERS: The names familiar.

No, I'm not sure I can place.

EVELYN BAILEY: Paul Brew

KATHRYN RIVERS: I know, oh, I know Paul.

Yes, I know Paul pretty well.

EVELYN BAILEY: put together a program for the shop,

or for the manufacturing piece.

KATHRYN RIVERS: Yes.

EVELYN BAILEY: So, my impression is

that, on the professional side there

was there was much more tolerance, or openness,

to working with and being associated with LGBT people.

And on the shop floor, for whatever

reasons, whether it was LGBT or other personal reasons,

there was more difficulty in, kind of,

having people who were LGBT feel more comfortable

in their work environment.

KATHRYN RIVERS: Yes.

And I went to some of Paul's presentations.

He did a very good job, very different environment.

And I would say, you know now, I worked

in technical, the engineering, the research and development

areas and it's almost like work is

your life for almost everybody.

There isn't a lot of discussion on a personal level.

Although I did some projects with some marketing people

and they're all about personal stuff. (laughs)

So those are two different environments.

So I'd have to say, I can't really speak to them all.

But to the manufacturing I can, because I did work on projects

where I would be in manufacturing

environments for a while.

And there is a lot of who's doing what kinds of things

going on.

And I'm not sure why that is.

I'm sure other people could speak to it better, especially

HR people.

Because maybe, because of job opportunities

or whatever other perks might be part of the job, that,

depending upon who you are or who you associate with

may be it just may work differently.

And I got the sense it did.

But so, the company did really try to work on that,

and Paul could speak to that well.

And it escapes me, the program name,

but they had a program specifically for those work

environments.

Particularly shift workers that would work different hours.

And you know, when you're working during the day behavior

is different than the middle of the night,

behavior is different.

So they were really trying to address this.

But again, Paul will be the best person

to talk to about those specifics.

But I could see it.

I just can't speak to it very well.

KEVIN INDOVINO: That's going to be my follow up question, which

I think you just answered.

Did Lambda Network at Kodak, did you

find that you had to make some special initiatives

to reach out to the manufacturing floors?

KATHRYN RIVERS: Well again, we got to be careful who we are

and what we can do within the company.

But we would get phone calls and e-mails

from people in those environments

and they would ask for help, or, you know, I'm having trouble.

So what we would usually do is meet with them and then say,

are you open to talking to your boss or a shift supervisor

about it?

And if they weren't, we really couldn't do anything.

But if they were, we'd try to get invited to a meeting

and share some ideas.

EVELYN BAILEY: So, Lambda at Kodak, sounds like,

also became like a hotline.

Or a

KATHRYN RIVERS: It was that hotline, that's for sure.

And it wasn't because we were promoting it, it just happened.

Yeah.

And it wasn't like the phone was ringing off the hook,

but I can probably think of a half a dozen incidences where

people were really feeling like they were stuck

and they needed help.

And a lot of times it would be, well, this

is really something you should be talking about with your HR

person.

But if you'd like me or somebody else

to come along to the meeting, we will.

But again, that's

EVELYN BAILEY: And you were free to do that?

KATHRYN RIVERS: Most of the time it was received.

But again, you know, if the HR person said no, you know, this

is an employee in this department

and you don't work here, you know, I mean,

they could say that.

But I would say, on the whole, most people

tried to help and do the right thing when there was

a situation going on like that.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So if you were to sum it all up, basically,

what do you think is the greatest impact

that Lambda had at Kodak?

KATHRYN RIVERS: I think it helped I think, for a while,

it helped with new hires coming out of college.

I think that might have been now, this is just my idea,

but I remember talking to this particular Vice President,

some HR people and you'd get people coming, or even

people transferring, and they'd look at the company

and they'd say, oh, you have domestic partnership benefits.

Well that's good.

All right.

And to them, that was a signal that the company

was more progressive.

I think that was, maybe, one of these

under appreciated benefits of what we did.

KEVIN INDOVINO: And on the same token again,

kind of sum this up if you can on a more personal level,

what do you think your greatest contribution in Lambda was?

KATHRYN RIVERS: Getting the words on the paper right.

(both laugh)

If we're going to write something up,

whether it's a mission statement or talk about what we're doing,

get it right.

Don't just scribble something off and toss it out

and everybody will understand.

Because some people are going to go over it with a fine tooth

comb, and they did.

So that was one of my let's make sure

we think this thing through when we write it down and share it

correctly.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Let's talk about life outside of Lambda,

beyond Lambda.

EVELYN BAILEY: Were you born in Rochester?

KATHRYN RIVERS: No.

I was born in Troy, New York.

I spent five years there and then did

most of my childhood growing up at Ovid.

Had few years in Nashville, Tennessee.

My father got a transfer and then we ended up in Rochester.

EVELYN BAILEY: Where did you go to college?

I mean

KATHRYN RIVERS: MCC, RIT, University of Buffalo.

EVELYN BAILEY: So you were in Rochester by the time you were

KATHRYN RIVERS: Yeah.

I ended up yeah, high school.

My last year of high school was here.

So, yeah.

And my family's here.

EVELYN BAILEY: And did you how did you get to Kodak?

I mean, was that your first job, or was that?

KATHRYN RIVERS: Out of, yeah, MCC.

I got a two year degree and I got a job

as a technician at Kodak and saved money.

And when I had enough money saved and got

enough extra night school under my belt,

I went over to University of buffalo for two years

to get an engineering degree.

And then I was out looking for a job

and actually had an offer from Xerox and Kodak.

And so I struggled with the decision,

do I want to go back to the same company?

Do I start someplace fresh?

Maybe it would be good, because you know,

I just went back and forth.

Anyway, so, I decided to go to Kodak again.

So I got rehired.

KEVIN INDOVINO: That reminds me of one more question.

I know you want to get beyond Lambda,

but one that came to mind, I never asked.

In these initial formations of Lambda Network at Kodak,

in pulling together the mission statements, and, you know,

bylaws and all that, were there other companies out there

that you were looking to as a benchmark?

I mean, who were you looking to for examples?

KATHRYN RIVERS: We did talk to Motorola.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Coincidence that George came from there.

KATHRYN RIVERS: Amazing, isn't it?

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yes.

KATHRYN RIVERS: Who is the other one, out west?

Wells-Fargo?

No.

There was a company who kind of got into this, originally.

Sort of created this mold for and I

can't think of the company.

KEVIN INDOVINO: It wasn't IBM was it?

KATHRYN RIVERS: No.

KEVIN INDOVINO: I'm trying to think of who was the first.

KATHRYN RIVERS: It's like, up in Washington or Oregon,

it's one of those states up there.

And it's a company that I'm sure we all

know the name of the company, it was fairly well known.

And what did they?

Oh, Lotus?

Or was it a software company?

It was a software company.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Lotus was a software company.

KATHRYN RIVERS: It was, but I don't think it was Lotus.

But it was a

EVELYN BAILEY: How about Microsoft?

KATHRYN RIVERS: No.

No, it wasn't Microsoft.

EVELYN BAILEY: Apple?

KATHRYN RIVERS: No.

Gosh.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Have to do a little research on that.

EVELYN BAILEY: Me?

KEVIN INDOVINO: Because I know at the same time Lambda

was developing, there was things going on at Xerox, too.

I don't recall, you know, which came first Xerox or Lambda.

Or were the two of you really developing together?

KATHRYN RIVERS: I don't know.

But Xerox had a different structure and also,

different ways of offering benefits.

It was more cafeteria style and so they did things differently.

Oh, my gosh.

I'm stuck on the name of the company.

It'll come to me.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, don't worry about it.

KATHRYN RIVERS: It'll come to me driving home or something.

EVELYN BAILEY: I have another question about the Lambda

at Kodak.

You said George Fisher came from Motorola

and he was interested in the development of the individual,

or the something about developing the

KEVIN INDOVINO: Personal development.

EVELYN BAILEY: Huh?

KEVIN INDOVINO: It was personal development.

KATHRYN RIVERS: Now, he's a very sharp technical engineer,

George Fisher.

And I met him a few times.