Audio Interview, Kraig Pannell, October 3, 2012

  • EVELYN BAILEY: Oh, and today is October 3rd, 2012.
  • And I'm sitting here at Creo Restaurant in Albany.
  • I have to come to Muhammed when Muhammed won't come to me.
  • And I'm sitting here talking with Kraig Panell
  • about his experiences being a gay man
  • and growing up as a person of color
  • and who recognized his being gay early on.
  • So I just want to verify some facts.
  • Where were you born, Kraig?
  • KRAIG PANNELL: I was originally, I was born in Elmira, New York.
  • And my mother and I moved to Rochester when I was two.
  • And, you know, lived in Rochester in the suburbs
  • until I graduated high school and went off to college.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Where did you go to high school?
  • KRAIG PANNELL: I went to high school
  • at Brockport High School.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: OK, so you weren't living in the city.
  • You were living
  • KRAIG PANNELL: We were living in Hamlin, New York at the time.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: OK.
  • KRAIG PANNELL: We moved out to Hamlin from the city
  • when I was in fifth grade.
  • Moved out there and, you know, was out there until I graduated
  • went to private school in Brockport.
  • I went to Nativity in Brockport for fifth and sixth grade.
  • Negotiated a deal with my mother to let
  • me go to a public junior high school as opposed
  • to a private high school.
  • So I went to Brockport Junior High
  • and when it came time to go to high school, I was like, OK,
  • I'll go to a private high school then.
  • You know, it just seemed to be a little bit
  • much trying to get into the city to go to a private high school
  • and all of that.
  • So I just I stayed in that area I went to Brockport High
  • and graduated from there.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Were you out in high school?
  • KRAIG PANNELL: No.
  • I wasn't out in high school.
  • There were several people who were.
  • I think in high school I knew that I was different.
  • I knew that there was something different about me.
  • But didn't really acknowledge it.
  • I think I didn't acknowledge it because I felt that, you know,
  • being out in Brockport was a very small area.
  • It was very I think I needed in my mind,
  • I needed to be somewhere that was more accepting and more
  • open before I actually, you know, fully explored, you know,
  • am I gay, am I this, am I that?
  • I think I always knew.
  • But there was a long period of time
  • where I always like, you know, pray or think
  • that like, you know, please let me be bisexual.
  • Then that way it will be a little bit more palatable
  • or you know I could kind of fake the funk a little bit easier
  • and whatnot.
  • But I think I knew and I think most people around me
  • knew but it was never really a question or
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Now what year are we talking
  • when you were in high school?
  • KRAIG PANNELL: I graduated from high school in '88.
  • So my high school years were from '84 to '88.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Can you share with me
  • a little bit about the town of Brockport or Hamlin.
  • Was there much crime?
  • KRAIG PANNELL: There wasn't much crime.
  • Brockport and Hamlin sit west of,
  • about twenty to thirty miles west of Rochester.
  • You know, Hamlin was more so, there
  • were some residential areas, but it was basically
  • a farm community.
  • There were like some housing subdivisions that were there.
  • There were people who had lived there all of their lives.
  • Brockport was a town, a suburb town of Rochester.
  • There's a SUNY campus there.
  • So they had, you know, we had access to the campus.
  • And there was like graduate students
  • and undergraduate students and a number of different disciplines
  • that were there.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Did it have the flavor of a college town?
  • KRAIG PANNELL: It did.
  • It did.
  • There were you know a number of like any college town.
  • You know, there are a number of different bars and restaurants
  • and you know, the off-campus housing
  • that looks like Animal House.
  • You know, there were and like the high school
  • campus was like right next to the college campus.
  • So like, you know, you would always see the college students
  • or we could, like, easily go over to the college campus
  • and walk around, which we frequently did
  • or attend college functions and stuff.
  • So it was an easy blend, it wasn't really drastic.
  • Also living out in Hamlin in the Brockport area
  • there weren't many people of color.
  • There weren't any, there were very few
  • African-American families that lived out that way.
  • When I was in junior high school, I was, myself
  • and one other woman in my class, were
  • the only two African-Americans in the schools
  • through K through sixth grade.
  • She left in 5th grade and then in the school
  • it was just my sister and I that were in there.
  • In the High school, the majority of the African-American
  • students were bussed in through our urban suburban program
  • from Rochester to go to school in Brockport.
  • And then I'll venture to say there
  • may have been twenty African-American families that
  • lived out there, several Latino families.
  • So it wasn't extremely diverse, but it was (pause)
  • EVELYN BAILEY: not
  • KRAIG PANNELL: not too bad.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Not pure?
  • KRAIG PANNELL: Right.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Did you ever experience any discrimination
  • either in Rochester before you moved
  • to Brockport or in Brockport because
  • of your African-American heritage or?
  • KRAIG PANNELL: In Rochester, I didn't
  • I can't say that I experienced anything overtly.
  • It was about the time we moved from Rochester out to Hamlin,
  • I was in fifth grade, I was like maybe ten years old.
  • So like, I knew that I was different
  • because I went to private school.
  • There weren't many ethnic minorities
  • that went to private school.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
  • KRAIG PANNELL: So I knew that I was
  • different from my surroundings.
  • But the communities that I lived in
  • were always ethnically diverse.
  • There was always a number of different races and ethnicities
  • within my neighborhood where I lived in Rochester.
  • But going to school, I was one of a handful always.
  • So any overt racism, I didn't necessarily experience.
  • I think that, you know, my family
  • may have noticed it and dealt with it.
  • But it wasn't anything that, you know, at that age
  • that I was aware of.
  • When I went to junior high in Brockport
  • and I was at a private school, you know,
  • there was some taunting by an underclassmen.
  • And, you know, I kind of just ignored it
  • until I really couldn't take it any longer.
  • And he said something to me, I don't recall what it was.
  • I just remember picking him up by his neck
  • and throwing him into the trash can. (laughs) You know
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Were you expelled for that action?
  • KRAIG PANNELL: No, no.
  • My mother was called and was like, you know, I did that.
  • And then I immediately had this I
  • guess I had an emotional reaction because I don't like
  • to get that upset and I don't like people
  • to see me get that upset.
  • And I was more mad at myself, not for what I did,
  • but for allowing it to get to me to take me to that place.
  • And the school knew and the administration at the school
  • knew that it wasn't common behavior for me.
  • They also knew that I had been taunted for a while
  • and did nothing.
  • And they were surprised at the fact
  • that I hadn't done anything until that point.
  • So it wasn't I didn't get expelled or anything like that,
  • but it was definitely one of those things where, you know,
  • parents were called and that type of thing.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And the witnesses were more than [one] raced?
  • KRAIG PANNELL: Oh yeah.
  • Oh yeah.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And in high school?
  • KRAIG PANNELL: High school, I think in high school
  • because we had a lot of the students,
  • the majority of the African-American students
  • were being bussed in from Rochester,
  • there was a good mix, there was a decent mix
  • of people at the school.
  • There were a number of but I also think at Brockport
  • there were a great deal of migrant workers' children
  • that would come into the school system
  • at different times of the year.
  • And I think they beared the brunt
  • of a lot of different things from a lot of different angles.
  • You know, we might see them there
  • at the beginning of the semester and then not see them again
  • until you know, they might be there like through November
  • and then you don't see them again until April.
  • And then, or there would be different
  • people that would come in.
  • So I think they, because their culture was different
  • and their experience was different,
  • you know, I think they beared the brunt
  • of a lot of the racism, a lot of the hatred that was going on.
  • In this school, there was power in numbers.
  • So I think a lot of the students that were bussed in
  • and doing the urban suburban program,
  • you know, they were more aware of like racism overtly
  • or covertly.
  • So like if anything happened it was addressed.
  • WAITRESS: Do you want some time, and I'll come back later?
  • Because I have specials all day.
  • KRAIG PANNELL: Thank you.
  • So I think that they kind of enlightened the rest of us
  • around what was going on.
  • In high school I think there was only maybe one incident
  • that I recall where somebody, you know, slung a racial slur
  • my way.
  • And you know I got fairly belligerent about my response
  • to him.
  • And you know, principals got called in,
  • we sat down in the principal's office,
  • then you know I had this whole thing.
  • But I think most people I don't think never really
  • said anything to my face because I was very,
  • I wasn't confrontational, but I spoke my mind and you know,
  • you knew where you stood and that was just me.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: It didn't mess with you.
  • KRAIG PANNELL: Not to my face anyway. (Bailey laughs)
  • Not to my face.
  • You know, there were things that I would
  • hear through the grapevine.
  • And I would say, well, you know, this is what I heard.
  • And if you feel that way then fine.
  • But you know, next time say it to me.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And what about college?
  • Where did you go to college?
  • KRAIG PANNELL: I went to Bucknell University
  • in Lewisburg, Pennsylvania. (pause)
  • College was a lot of things.
  • It was, it was, um (pause)
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Was let me get the racial thing out
  • of the way.
  • Did you experience any racism at Bucknell? (pause)
  • Missed opportunities because you were African-American?
  • KRAIG PANNELL: Oh no.
  • No, no, no, no.
  • I didn't miss any opportunities.
  • I don't think that I think it was very covert.
  • And like, when you think about the population of students
  • and where they came from.
  • There were students from all over the world that
  • came to Bucknell.
  • A vast majority of them were from families
  • who had significant wealth.
  • A lot of them, you know, boarding schools and this
  • and that and the third thing.
  • There was a, I'll say a fairly representative population
  • of ethnic minorities and international students
  • on campus.
  • Percentage wise, I would say compared
  • to the population of the United States at the time.
  • So you know if it was like 10 percent African-American,
  • there was like 10 percent African-Americans on campus.
  • It was very representative that way.
  • But not necessarily economically.
  • There was a vast economic differences amongst people.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
  • KRAIG PANNELL: And there were some, you know,
  • ethnic minorities that were on campus
  • who also came from families of significant wealth.
  • And international students who came from significant wealth
  • as well.
  • So you have this real diverse and disparate social class
  • and strata that was there.
  • So I think that at Bucknell there were
  • some covert pieces of racism.
  • There would be things that you would hear that people would
  • say underneath their breath.
  • I think there would be things that people would
  • do that would be taken as racist, but most of the time,
  • we took them as an educational moment.
  • I think some people didn't necessarily
  • view it as them being racist, whether it
  • was them posting a sign and someone looking
  • like they were in blackface.
  • And you're like, you can't do that.
  • Then they'd be like well why?
  • This is a caricature, this is what
  • whatever, and then you have to go through the whole history
  • of it.
  • So I think that in addressing, you know,
  • what was racist or perceived to be racist on that campus,
  • we tended to seize it as an educational moment.
  • I was president of the Black Student Union
  • and then we changed the name to the I
  • don't know, instead of the Minority Student Union,
  • we called it the we changed the name
  • to a couple of different things.
  • And I'll say for like about two and a half, three years,
  • I was the president of that organization on campus.
  • I was, you know, welcomed into, you
  • know, receptions at the president's house
  • on a regular basis, and student government
  • to talk about different things, and invited
  • to speak at forums about racial diversity
  • and ethnic diversity on campus and you
  • know what we wanted to do.
  • But the school also had a very active social justice
  • curriculum.
  • They also had a, you know, African-American Studies
  • program and, you know, a lot of classes on race, class,
  • and gender on campus.
  • So you had a lot of academics who
  • were very interested in racial dynamics and ethnic dynamics
  • and feminism and politics of power.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Pretty progressive.
  • KRAIG PANNELL: Yeah, it was very progressive being there.
  • And I think it's very surprising when,
  • you know, you're in the middle of nowhere Pennsylvania,
  • (Bailey laughs) you know, and the community
  • is not that diverse.
  • And when the college I want to say we
  • had maybe three thousand students on campus
  • that were so diverse and so different.
  • Freshman year was difficult. I went to college
  • thinking I'm going to be around people
  • who are more worldly and more open and more understanding
  • and not as judgmental.
  • And I think that's where I felt that I
  • was going to be able to come out and be able to do my coming out
  • process and understand myself a little bit more and grow.
  • But when I got there, I realized some of them
  • are just the same people I went to high school
  • with but just from a different area (both laugh).
  • You know, whether it was their socioeconomic status,
  • their race, their ethnicity, their mentality,
  • their whatever, it was like, OK, I'm
  • not in a place that's vastly different from where I went
  • to high school where I live.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And not safe.
  • KRAIG PANNELL: And I didn't, I never felt unsafe.
  • I never felt unsafe there.
  • But it was like it wasn't what I wanted college to be.
  • I wanted it to be a more worldly place
  • where I would be able to be to feel
  • I could be a little bit freer and a little bit more
  • expressive.
  • Where I could, you know, grow and be my own person.
  • And not to say that I didn't do that in college,
  • but I think my freshman year and my first experience there,
  • I was just very much like, oh my god.
  • This is just not what I anticipated
  • or what I expected college to be.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: So when did you find that place?
  • After you graduated obviously.
  • KRAIG PANNELL: I think it was a process.
  • I think, you know, it started in high school.
  • But it was like, I also knew that there were certain things
  • that I needed to accomplish.
  • There were certain things I needed to achieve.
  • There were certain expectations that
  • were held of me, whether by myself, my family, or society.
  • You know, I needed to achieve.
  • I needed to
  • EVELYN BAILEY: What was your degree in?
  • KRAIG PANNELL: I have a degree in Political Science and Black
  • Studies with an emphasis on American Politics and Policy.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: So you were thinking maybe
  • the presidency might be reachable,
  • might be an obtainable goal.
  • An achievement that wasn't expected, but would be greatly
  • applauded.
  • KRAIG PANNELL: I think that maybe as a policy advisor.
  • But not necessarily the president.
  • I didn't set my goals that lofty (both laugh).
  • But yeah, I think that there were things that one,
  • I wanted to achieve.
  • And then two, that I felt that, you
  • know, for me thinking about at the time
  • it wasn't really cool to be gay.
  • It wasn't one of those things that was accepted.
  • It was one of those things where, we are also
  • talking about at the beginning of the HIV/AIDS epidemic going
  • on.
  • And you have people talking about calling it GRID,
  • and it's all about the gays are the ones who are doing it.
  • And there's all of this vitriol going on about gay is this
  • and gay is that.
  • So you don't know what to say or how to feel
  • or, like, you know, if I do come out,
  • how is it going to received.
  • And you know, I'm not the most masculine of people,
  • but you know, it's like, you know you look at me,
  • you can tell.
  • Unless you're Helen Keller (Bailey laughs) or something
  • like that.
  • But it was also one of those things
  • where I had to come to terms with it and I had to be
  • and I think it was a process.
  • And you know in college, I had some very supportive friends
  • that I came out to in college.
  • And they were understanding and changed nothing.
  • Even after college as I began to come out to some of my friends
  • more, they were very supportive.
  • I had a couple of cousins who I told, but I was never,
  • I was never really in an area where
  • there was this active, vibrant, gay culture.
  • I was living out in Brockport.
  • When I left Rochester I was eighteen.
  • You know, the drinking age was twenty-one.
  • There was nowhere to really, no where
  • that I knew of to really go and to meet other people.
  • The one time I went into a gay bar in Rochester,
  • it just seemed very predatory to me.
  • And you know, that was just my perception and my fear.
  • Not saying that it was or wasn't, but that's
  • just how I perceived it at the time.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Where did you go after Bucknell?
  • KRAIG PANNELL: After I graduated from Bucknell,
  • I swore I would never live in the state of Pennsylvania
  • again in my life.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: So you moved to Pittsburgh?
  • KRAIG PANNELL: One better.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Philadelphia?
  • KRAIG PANNELL: No, one better.
  • I moved to Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania,
  • which is in the northeastern (Bailey laughs)
  • section of Pennsylvania.
  • And the Wilkes-Barre, Scranton area, just based like you
  • know right there in a valley around the Poconos.
  • Just so happened to be after graduating I
  • came back to Rochester for several weeks.
  • And just so happened that I interviewed for this job.
  • They offered it to me and I moved down.
  • So I went to work for King's College, which
  • is a Catholic college run by the same
  • the Holy Cross Fathers, which also run Notre Dame.
  • And when I went there, I was the coordinator
  • for multicultural and international students
  • in the student affairs department.
  • But I was also the minority student recruiter based out
  • of admissions.
  • So I had two titles, two job descriptions, one paycheck,
  • and two offices (Bailey laughs).
  • EVELYN BAILEY: So you worked eighty hours a week.
  • KRAIG PANNELL: Seemed like it at the time.
  • But you know at the time, you know, I'm in my early twenties,
  • you know, the world is invincible,
  • you can do anything.
  • But you know, I also felt that it
  • was a place where I could impact some of the incoming students.
  • I wasn't that far removed from my own college experience
  • so I could relate to the majority of them.
  • You know, I enjoyed the travel trying to recruit students
  • to come to the campus and whatnot.
  • But it wasn't until I worked for that institution,
  • that I realized how well I had it at Bucknell.
  • And I did that for two years.
  • And it was an interesting experience.
  • I met some wonderful people, had some eye
  • opening experiences, meeting some self-identified gay
  • priest.
  • You know, hearing them actually swear and curse and drink
  • and smoke and all of these things
  • that you know going to private school
  • that you think priests don't do.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Religious women do it too.
  • KRAIG PANNELL: Right (Bailey laughs), you know.
  • So it opened my eyes to a number of different things.
  • I was there were also, you know, stereotypical
  • but in college student affairs there's
  • a great number of LGBT individuals.
  • I met some of them were in my student affairs department.
  • So I created some friendships with my colleagues on campus.
  • In the Wilkes-Barre, Scranton area
  • there was an enormous population of LGBT people.
  • And I swore that it was in the water.
  • I'm like, where do you all come from (Bailey laughs)
  • In a city this size, I think the whole one in ten rule
  • didn't work.
  • I think this is like one in four.
  • So it was interesting.
  • Then again, not a very diverse area,
  • but very the gay community was very, welcoming and very
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Was it organized?
  • KRAIG PANNELL: No, not really.
  • There was a community.
  • There were a couple of I want to say like two small bars.
  • One was like in this, I guess what
  • would have been like an old house
  • and like maybe couldn't hold more than sixty people.
  • And I didn't go there but I heard about it.
  • And like everybody would flock there.
  • That's was the spot to be on certain nights.
  • And we had another bar that was I guess more accustomed to what
  • a bar would be today.
  • Or what you would think of as a gay bar.
  • And you know, pool table, bar stools and all that, you know.
  • Not a large enough space, but people went there as well.
  • So it was interesting.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: When did your political roots
  • and your community organizing roots take hold of you
  • and catapult you into activism.
  • KRAIG PANNELL: I think they've always been there.
  • I think part of it was when I was at Bucknell,
  • there were a number of different things that I was involved in.
  • There were a number of things that faculty and administration
  • would consult with myself and some of my other peers
  • about around, you know, new policies and procedures
  • or new academic requirements or courses they wanted to add.
  • The educational portion of when, you know, things did happen
  • on campus, let's address them.
  • Let's not sweep them under the rug.
  • Let's talk about, you know, the social political aspects
  • of these actions on campus.
  • And, you know, I think a lot of that
  • was cultivated by Bucknell, and that's
  • their process of doing things.
  • So I was fairly active there, which
  • I also think parlayed itself into when
  • I started to work at King's and I moved to Wilkes Barre,
  • noticing the difference between institutions.
  • Also there it was one of those things where
  • because I was the coordinator of multicultural and international
  • students, unbeknownst to me, I didn't realize
  • that I would be the go to person about what happens
  • in the community as well.
  • So there were times where there were swastikas
  • painted on synagogues and that type of thing,
  • or there'd be a number of other racial or ethnic motivated
  • slurs and hate crimes that would happen.
  • And they would want my opinion about it.
  • And I'm like, I'm a transplant here.
  • I don't know your community that well.
  • But that was one of the roles at the university
  • or the college played.
  • So in that position, I had to make statements and be aware
  • of what local politics were and what the local climate was
  • and all of that.
  • I think after I left King's, I really
  • didn't want to get back into that role.
  • I needed a break.
  • Did high school, did four years of college,
  • did two years of working, it just went on.
  • And I was like, OK, I need something.
  • So I worked in retail for about a year.
  • Might be stereotypical, but I did.
  • Did visual and blah, blah, blah.
  • And I was fine.
  • And it was that I didn't have to do
  • all of that deep thought and deep thinking piece.
  • But then the local AIDS council was looking for someone to
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Was this in Wilkes-Barre?
  • KRAIG PANNELL: This was in Wilkes-Barre.
  • Their local AIDS council was looking
  • to they had just received money to do a targeted outreach
  • program for men who have sex with men.
  • And somebody had pointed out to me,
  • and I had never really thought about it.
  • And then a friend of mine who was on the board of directors
  • was like, you know, Kraig, you really
  • need to apply for this position, you need to do whatever.
  • So he gave me the announcement and I said, well,
  • the posting is over.
  • It's past due.
  • It's bad form to, like, you know,
  • submit a resume after the due date.
  • You just don't do that.
  • He was like, Kraig, just submit something.
  • He's like, you already know the executive director.
  • And he mentioned this guy's name and I'm like,
  • I know him to see him, but I don't really
  • have a rapport with him.
  • So that night I went out and the executive director
  • came up to me and introduced himself.
  • And he was like, well, you haven't applied.
  • I said, bad form, after the date, whatever.
  • He's like, send me your resume.
  • Whatever.
  • So I do that, went, interviewed, and got the job.
  • And the interesting thing about that was there
  • was no (pause) I had to create the entire program.
  • There was there was no target outreach done
  • to men who have sex with men in the northeastern region
  • of Pennsylvania.
  • And when we're talking about creating a program,
  • we're talking about creating a program for six counties.
  • Six counties, most of which were rural.
  • So it was a challenge, and it was fine.
  • We were a small organization.
  • It was some very dedicated people
  • with complimentary skill sets and capacity
  • and had a passion to kind of make a difference.
  • So to get back to your question originally
  • about my political activism and roots and things and whatnot,
  • I think it was I've been there.
  • You know, all of my life has been about social justice
  • and my upbringing was about right is right
  • and wrong is wrong and wrong will never be right.
  • So that was what my family instilled in me.
  • And I think Bucknell fortified some of that.
  • And then the rest of my career kind of followed
  • along those lines and snowballed that way.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And what brought you to Rochester?
  • KRAIG PANNELL: After saying that I would not
  • live in Pennsylvania ever again and after living there
  • from '92 until 2001 (pause) it was time to come home.
  • It was time.
  • My family didn't necessarily like me living out of state.
  • And they wanted me closer.
  • So my grandmother had passed away earlier in 2001
  • and was for me, that was devastating.
  • But also at the time, when I was working,
  • I don't know why I couldn't leave.
  • I just felt like there was something
  • that had to be done that wasn't done yet,
  • and I didn't know what it was.
  • Right around the time or shortly after my grandmother passed,
  • I knew my work was done.
  • And I knew whatever I was meant to do
  • or destined to do there was done.
  • Still to this day don't know what it was.
  • But I felt my mission was complete.
  • So I moved back.
  • Here I am, thirty-one, almost thirty-two years old,
  • hadn't really lived in Rochester since I was eighteen.
  • Whole new world.
  • (laughs)
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And it was then that you
  • were I think, correct me if I'm wrong, weren't you
  • asked to join MOCHA?
  • KRAIG PANNELL: When I came back to Rochester,
  • I was working for what was at the time Community Health
  • Network.
  • And I had done part of my work with them.
  • I did some collaborative work with MOCHA.
  • And that's how I met Lee Carson and a couple of other staff
  • over there.
  • And Lee was like, we're looking for a program
  • director at MOCHA.
  • And I was like, well, no, I got here.
  • I don't really know much about it, whatever.
  • And I kind of pushed back a little bit.
  • And then they asked me to be on their board of directors.
  • And I said, I can do that.
  • So that way I can learn a little bit more about Rochester,
  • learn a little bit more about the community
  • and the organization.
  • From being on their board and the work that I was doing
  • in the community otherwise, there was a real push
  • by the organization to find they had
  • a program director in Buffalo.
  • They needed a program director in the Rochester office.
  • So they had a consultant go and, you know, do
  • a community assessment and poll the community about who
  • they think they should entertain or the qualities
  • about the program director and so on and so forth.
  • You know, so after he did his whole little thing,
  • came back and reported that the general consensus
  • in the community was that the program director should be me.
  • Much to my surprise, because I was like,
  • I didn't really think that I was that well known in Rochester
  • or, you know, whatever.
  • So at that time, they decided to do
  • I think I had stepped off of the board for other reasons.
  • And then they started to do a search.
  • So I had, you know, waited and waited
  • and I threw my hat in the ring and went and interviewed
  • and blah, blah, blah, and ultimately became the program
  • director for MOCHA in Rochester for their Rochester office.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Now step back for a minute.
  • What is MOCHA?
  • MOCHA is an acronym for?
  • KRAIG PANNELL: MOCHA started out as an acronym for Men
  • Of Color Health Awareness Project.
  • I can't right now offhand I can't remember
  • the exact year they started.
  • I want to say '95.
  • It was started by a group of African American men who
  • felt that their needs weren't being met in Rochester as
  • far as their HIV/AIDS prevention needs
  • or they weren't being represented
  • as part of the gay community.
  • So they wanted something that represented them.
  • So they started the organization.
  • And from my understanding, Gary English
  • was the first executive director of MOCHA.
  • And they worked collaboratively with a number of different
  • organizations to kind of establish themselves and get
  • their 501(c)(3) status and state funding and all of that stuff.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Advocacy?
  • KRAIG PANNELL: They did advocacy.
  • From my understanding, that's how they received
  • a lot of their early funding.
  • They did advocacy around HIV/AIDS prevention
  • for men of color.
  • Whether it was locally or with the state.
  • Also in collaboration with the Center for Health
  • and Behavioral Training developed
  • an evidence based intervention specifically
  • targeting men of color, which is called Many Men, Many Voices.
  • And,you know, that particular evidenced based intervention is
  • part of the CDC's DEBI program, which is Diffusion of Evidence
  • Based Interventions that is used nationally and even
  • internationally now.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: So it was education and?
  • KRAIG PANNELL: They did education, prevention,
  • social support, you know, whatever needed to be done
  • and whatever they tried to meet the majority of the need.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Was MOCHA the counterpart
  • to AIDS Rochester in the African American community?
  • KRAIG PANNELL: I can't really say, because I wasn't there
  • at the time.
  • But from what I've learned, MOCHA never
  • necessarily wanted to be the counterpart to AIDS Rochester.
  • It was like, here's these gaps, and we're
  • going to fill these gaps for our community.
  • We're going to provide services by us, for us.
  • There were, you know some client service navigation pieces
  • to kind of, like, you know, to get people through the system
  • and help them navigate the system
  • to get them to services that AIDS Rochester may provide
  • or that CHN was providing or a number of the other
  • larger organizations.
  • But it was kind of like, you know, let me have home base
  • and let me be able to talk to people so
  • that way we can get our services and have our support needs
  • met and we can advocate for ourselves.
  • And they tried to teach people how to advocate for themselves,
  • but also navigate whatever they needed.
  • And a lot of the advocacy of MOCHA was around love.
  • You're not contributing dollars for prevention.
  • You're not contributing dollars to provide supportive services.
  • How do you do that and what does that look like?
  • And that's what MOCHA was.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: What was the biggest or major obstacle
  • to getting the services that African American men needed?
  • KRAIG PANNELL: There weren't people that looked
  • like us providing the service.
  • There was a cultural competency piece.
  • There was a whole lack of understanding.
  • There's the whole (pause) lack of trust.
  • There's a lot of historical significance that goes back,
  • you know, that I think with most racial and ethnic populations.
  • There's a lot of distrust with the medical field.
  • There's a lot of distrust from you're not
  • going to tell me the right thing,
  • because one, you don't look like me, two,
  • you're trying to keep something for yourself.
  • But I don't think there were a whole lot of services that
  • were marketed or targeted towards that population
  • to say, look, we want you here.
  • We're inviting you in.
  • We want you have a place at our table.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Within the African American community,
  • who were the most supportive? (pause)
  • Were there specific agencies that really came to your stood
  • with you?
  • KRAIG PANNELL: I think at the time, because let's undersatnd,
  • I wasn't at MOCHA in the whole '95 and all of that.
  • I kind of came in 2004.
  • So when I came in, there was
  • EVELYN BAILEY: ABC?
  • KRAIG PANNELL: ABC was there, but ABC didn't really
  • do a lot of stuff regarding they did stuff with people of color
  • and they did stuff with African American people,
  • but they didn't necessarily deal with LGBT people specifically.
  • And then you have that whole black church
  • piece that's there as well.
  • There were organizations that wanted to collaborate.
  • There was (unintelligible), there was ABC,
  • there was Westside Health Services, Anthony Jordan
  • Medical Services, SHN.
  • Everybody wanted to kind of collaborate and do stuff
  • and they knew that services need to be provided
  • for that population, but the only organization
  • that knew how to access that population was MOCHA.
  • And I think a lot of people felt that, we're
  • going to collaborate with MOCHA because it gives us entry
  • to this distinct population.
  • But then again, you also have to understand
  • the difficult part is there's a lot of people of color
  • who I don't identify as gay first.
  • And that's different than when you're talking
  • about some other communities.
  • Because some other communities, well, who are you?
  • Well, I'm a gay Italian man.
  • Or I'm a white lesbian whatever.
  • And their sexuality is first.
  • And a lot of ethnic minority communities,
  • their sexuality is something that
  • goes further down the line.
  • So you have to be able to know how to approach that.
  • So you're going into an organization and it's like,
  • you know, don't put me in this box automatically
  • or think because I am a gay man, I do these things.
  • There's other things that I may do
  • or there might be things that I don't do.
  • So it was about things being very prescriptive and not
  • individualized.
  • And there's a language difference.
  • There's, you know, whatever.
  • And not to say that it's only with that
  • it was a cultural issue across racial or ethnic lines.
  • I mean
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Economic lines.
  • KRAIG PANNELL: It's across the board.
  • I mean, even when I had moved back to Rochester
  • and would go out, there were a lot of black gay men
  • that treated me very differently.
  • And they treated me very differently
  • because of the fact that, you know, oh, you have an education
  • or oh, you have a job or oh, you have a career.
  • All of these things which are typically attributes.
  • Oh, you wouldn't know anything about struggle
  • or you wouldn't know anything about strife.
  • And they, like, completely discounted me
  • because I had an education and these things.
  • And it happened to me more than once.
  • And that was very overt.
  • There were people that were very about that.
  • Oh, you think you're bougie, you think you're better,
  • and so on and so forth.
  • And I distinctly remember, you know, sitting somewhere
  • and this guy was like, well, Kraig wouldn't know anything
  • about that because he's a decent white woman.
  • And I looked at him and I said, yes I am.
  • If you want to call because I know what fork to eat with
  • and how to speak and how to write and all this other stuff,
  • being a decent white woman, then fine.
  • If you want to call the fact that I saw an opportunity and I
  • chose to take that opportunity and make
  • the best of it, then fine.
  • You may not have had the opportunities presented to you
  • that I had to me, but it doesn't make
  • me any less black than you.
  • It doesn't make my experience any less valid or less
  • of a struggle than yours.
  • Because no, I don't know what it's like to stand on line
  • and get cheese.
  • I don't know what it's like to open a cupboard
  • and have nothing in the closet.
  • I don't know what it's like to have
  • to do a number of different things
  • that you may have experienced.
  • But it doesn't make me any less black.
  • Because when I walk out the door,
  • that's the first thing that people see.
  • And if I have to battle them and I
  • have to battle you at the same time, what's going on?
  • And a lot of people didn't understand that.
  • And also when I went to MOCHA there was a lot of push
  • back by some people.
  • And there were ways that I would organize things
  • and I would do events and I would do things.
  • I don't mind a cookout.
  • I don't mind doing, you know, very comfortable events.
  • But there were other things where, like, look,
  • we need to step it up a bit to attract some different folks.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Well, professional organizations
  • need to present themselves in certain ways.
  • Otherwise they aren't accepted by others.
  • KRAIG PANNELL: And that was a large part
  • of what was going on with MOCHA when I came on in 2004
  • was that people were like, oh, they really don't do anything.
  • They have this money and it's all social
  • and laughs and fun and whatever.
  • You're not really making an impact on anything.
  • So when I went in, I'm like, OK, we have these programs.
  • What is the purpose of the program?
  • I walk the staff through stuff.
  • Tell me why we do this and what people
  • are supposed to get out of it?
  • OK, so now when you go to do this group,
  • remember this is where you're supposed to get people to.
  • So this is the purpose of this.
  • And kind of re-framing things and restructuring stuff.
  • Because it was pervasive in the community.
  • It was like, OK, you're basically a social club.
  • You're not really getting anything done.
  • You're not making an impact with what's going on.
  • And it was important for me to go there and be
  • able to begin to quantify the work that we were doing
  • or the work with the capacity and skills
  • that was within the organization and to give it a more (pause)
  • to still let it be comfortable for everyone to come in
  • and let it be what it represented in the community,
  • but then also to be able to have it be somewhere where, you
  • know, you can't knock the winds out of our sails
  • because we are having an impact, and here's the impact
  • that we're having.
  • Just because it doesn't look like what you're used to
  • doesn't mean it's not happening.
  • But I also felt that the community deserves, the people
  • of color community, deserved a place
  • that they could go in and feel comfortable and not
  • have it look like it needed to look and to be
  • what it needed to be.
  • You know, it didn't
  • EVELYN BAILEY: It could be inclusive of them
  • versus (unintelligible).
  • Did by the time you came on board,
  • HIV had really become less, in a sense, a gay disease and more
  • of a drug culture disease.
  • There was a time when sexual activity was the prime
  • KRAIG PANNELL: Mode of transmission
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Thing that caused HIV.
  • And then it moved to the drug culture with the needles.
  • Did that make a difference in how MOCHA did its program,
  • or how?
  • KRAIG PANNELL: It depends on which population
  • you're talking about.
  • I mean, yeah, the gay community as a whole did a great deal
  • to educate and to reduce numbers of HIV cases
  • in men who have sex with men and sexual modes of transmission.
  • There was a spike in intravenous drug use.
  • But the other thing that had happened
  • was that you also still had a disproportionate amounts
  • of African American men and Latino men who
  • were having sex with men who were contracting HIV
  • disproportionately.
  • So, you know, overall big picture,
  • it's either staying steady or it's reducing.
  • But then if you looked at it ethically,
  • you still had African American men
  • who have sex with men and Latino men
  • who have sex with men who were disproportionately
  • impacted and affected by HIV.
  • So there was that whole piece that was going on.
  • But then also at the time that I came in,
  • you had the numbers of newly diagnosed cases
  • may have gone down, but you had more people living
  • with HIV because of the fact that there was medication.
  • So you had people who were living longer,
  • people who may had been ailing earlier on
  • but now are getting better and stronger and living lives.
  • You have, you know, people living on into senior years
  • and what's going on with that.
  • KRAIG PANNELL: So I think within the ethnic minority community,
  • we still have the same mission.
  • We still had to, like, you know stop new infection.
  • There was testing and treatment that needed to be done.
  • There was education that needed to take place.
  • You know, we needed to address other behaviors that
  • go on that also can cause transmissions that people may
  • not necessarily talk about when they go in and get a test
  • and identify in one way or the other.
  • So we have to talk, but, you know,
  • it's not so much to talk about and advocate
  • for the use of condoms.
  • You have to begin to be able to this is how you do it.
  • You had to show people how to do it.
  • You had to have open and candid conversations about it.
  • You need it to start young.
  • You know, there's a number of different things and avenues
  • that you have to do in order one,
  • to encourage somebody to get a test.
  • And then two, to actually get them engaged in care.
  • And then three, to maintain them in care.
  • Because you're talking about trying
  • to get a seventeen year-old person to get tested, find out
  • if they're and if they are newly diagnosed,
  • how do you get them to care, and how do you maintain care?
  • And then it was also around that time
  • when HIV became not necessarily seen as a deadly disease.
  • It became a chronic illness.
  • So you have people who were like, look, well,
  • if I get it today, and I'm twenty,
  • I'm not going die until I'm forty-five
  • And I didn't plan on living past forty-five anyway,
  • so let me just go on and do what I need to do
  • and be happy between twenty and forty-five.
  • Or I'm more worried about stepping out my front door
  • and being hit by a car, or a stray bullet, or whatever else.
  • Contracting HIV is the last thing on my mind.
  • So, you know, there's the whole perception of risk perception,
  • and severity, and susceptibility.
  • And then also in order to get people into care
  • or to talk about where their greatest need is,
  • you have to look at their hierarchy of need.
  • Their hierarchy of need might be like, look,
  • I've got to put food on the table today.
  • And if I go out here and get on this corner,
  • or go online and get this man, he's
  • going to give me this much money to do it without a condom.
  • Whereas otherwise, I'm going to get this.
  • But I can take that money and fill my refrigerator
  • for a week, or I can eat for a day.
  • So what am I going to do?
  • I'm just going to take my chances.
  • And as I alluded to, you also have
  • the advent of the dynamic of how people met and hooked up
  • changed.
  • You had the whole online culture and all of these other things
  • to tend with.
  • So there was this whole societal shift.
  • There was this whole shift in the viewpoint of the epidemic.
  • And it was no longer viewed as specifically a gay disease.
  • There were people from all walks of life
  • contracting it and being a little bit more out about it.
  • So there was a huge shift in the dynamic
  • of how things had to be done and what that looks like.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: When you look back
  • at the time you were involved with MOCHA in Rochester,
  • what are you most proud of?
  • KRAIG PANNELL: (laughs)
  • I think , I don't I think "proud's" too strong.
  • I think I appreciate my entire experience with MOCHA.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: What do you think you accomplished from MOCHA?
  • KRAIG PANNELL: I was a part of helping
  • them get their first two federally-funded contracts, one
  • through HRSA, which is the Health Research Service
  • Administration out of the federal government,
  • and then also with the Office of Minority Health.
  • Expanded the organization from a staff of three
  • to a staff of twelve within nine months.
  • Helped to create, or adapt and tailor,
  • Many Men, Many Voices into Young Men,
  • Young Voices, which is a HIV/AIDS prevention
  • intervention targeting young men who have sex with men.
  • I think, you know (pause) But it wasn't solely me.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Understood.
  • But accomplishment starts with leadership at the top,
  • not at the bottom.
  • And my experience of you has been
  • less in terms of organization, even though we've
  • interacted on that level.
  • But you mentioned earlier the drive to achieve things
  • and to accomplish things.
  • And that things had been expected of you,
  • and you knew they were expected.
  • And you rose to that occasion and met the expectation.
  • My interactions with you have only reinforced my belief
  • that you are not only a caring and compassionate man,
  • but you are driven by a sense of justice, a sense of equality,
  • and wanting people to be healthy across the board,
  • whether it's healthily legally, healthily physically,
  • healthy psychologically.
  • And from my perspective, your presence in Rochester,
  • even for the short time you were there,
  • had a tremendous impact on the community,
  • primarily because you thought outside a box.
  • And you called other people to do that with you.
  • And you challenged people to not maintain the status quo,
  • but to confront it and move it forward.
  • Now, those are my words.
  • And I know you can't say that!
  • (both laugh)
  • KRAIG PANNELL: No, and I appreciate it.
  • I do, I really do.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: So I will say it.
  • But I also have to ask you, were there any times in your life
  • when you were not proud to be Kraig Pannell?
  • When you did not feel Kraig Pannell was
  • worth a whole lot more than just the bones and flesh you are?
  • KRAIG PANNELL: I can't think of a particular moment.
  • There are times where, you know, we can,
  • we tend to be our own worst enemy.
  • And we tend to beat ourselves up.
  • And there are times where I've gone through, you know,
  • some found myself in some very dark spaces.
  • And not because of an instance or outside people.
  • I think maybe because I set my expectation too high,
  • and I didn't meet my expectation,
  • whether that was personally, professionally, socially,
  • or what have you.
  • And there's times where I tend to take myself
  • a little too seriously, or take situations
  • a little too seriously.
  • And it's only recently where I've
  • been able to back up and be like, it's not that deep.
  • It's not that serious.
  • And, you know, there are certain situations
  • which are truly temporary.
  • You know, for me to sit here and say
  • that have I contemplated hurting or harming myself?
  • I have.
  • But fortunately for me, you know,
  • I either had the presence of mind
  • not to go any further than a thought,
  • or I had support that was there that allowed me
  • to kind of reel myself back in.
  • But, I think, you know, there's I
  • can't think of a particular instance
  • where I was really, really upset, or disappointed,
  • or whatever.
  • There's the typical things that you see in movies.
  • There's the heartbreak, and there's the loneliness,
  • and the getting older and finding the first gray hair,
  • and all of that stuff.
  • But I think
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And I think if we're honest with ourselves,
  • there's not a person who has not thought at one point or another
  • that not being here would be far better than being here.
  • And that there are options we could exercise if we so
  • chose to exercise them.
  • KRAIG PANNELL: Right.
  • And I think, you know, for me, as I said,
  • I think it was more so my own internal struggle with
  • and it wasn't necessarily around my sexuality.
  • It wasn't about my race.
  • I just felt internally, I felt a lot of pain,
  • and I wanted the internal pain to stop.
  • And I didn't know, you know, what it was.
  • If I tried to change things personally,
  • or tried things professionally, or this or that,
  • it wasn't satisfying.
  • And I still felt some semblance of pain.
  • And it wasn't something that I felt that I could really
  • talk to people about.
  • It wasn't something that I felt that I wasn't worried
  • about people's perception of me, but it was also something
  • I couldn't articulate.
  • I couldn't verbalize.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Well, there are some things
  • that are so personal and intimate that we choose
  • not to share them, because we don't
  • have that level of communication with everyone.
  • And it's not to be shared with everyone.
  • KRAIG PANNELL: True, and I think it was also that
  • and this was, I'll say not so long ago, maybe
  • within the past two years.
  • But whether it was my work that kept me going,
  • like I need to get up and do something greater than myself.
  • Whether it was, this is going to be
  • my distraction from whatever, it had to happen.
  • And fortunately for me, I'm in a position where
  • you know, there was a night where I was like, look,
  • this is what I want to do.
  • And something happened I got distracted.
  • And I fell asleep on the bed and didn't follow through
  • on something.
  • There's some kind of divine intervention around that.
  • But that was the point when I was like, OK, Kraig,
  • you need to get professional help.
  • And I went, and (pause) it works.
  • I don't necessarily know what the whole thing was.
  • But there's this whole thing around getting
  • professional help.
  • There's this whole stigma around it.
  • And, you know, honestly, I sit, I go,
  • I have this open dialogue without judgment.
  • And I don't know what it is, but, you know,
  • it gets me through.
  • But it also helps me to process.
  • I don't think it's a bad thing.
  • I think if more people actually access the resources that
  • are out there for them I can't say the entire world would
  • be a better place, but I think people would feel a whole lot
  • better about themselves.
  • But I also think
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Well
  • KRAIG PANNELL: Go ahead.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: You obviously have
  • a sense of not only who you are, but of
  • what sits right with you, and what
  • sits not so right with you.
  • And you look at and reflect upon those things pretty critically.
  • There are two messages in there one, don't bury things.
  • Keep them in the forefront.
  • And two, when your thought and your heart
  • is not able to cope with what's going on, to reach out.
  • And I think for young people especially who I mean,
  • when you're gay, and you discover
  • you're gay, you spend more time thinking about what that is
  • and what that isn't, and who you are
  • and who you aren't, than 90 percent of the population.
  • And so your introspection can lead
  • to some pretty critical discoveries
  • that can either throw you, or frighten you, or put you
  • in a spin.
  • And at those times, you need someone to talk to.
  • You need someone to reach out and say,
  • this is what's going on.
  • Non-judgmentally, and just listen and offer
  • whatever positive direction might be.
  • KRAIG PANNELL: We all need an outlet, whatever that may be.
  • For some people, it's music.
  • For others, it's writing.
  • For some people, it's exercise or something.
  • And, you know, for me, I began to keep a journal,
  • and it was an open and honest journal.
  • I wasn't worried about punctuation.
  • I wasn't worried about whatever.
  • It was just like, I have to get this out.
  • And it didn't necessarily take away what I was feeling,
  • but it took away the intensity of what I was feeling.
  • And so that allowed me to be able to move forward and go on.
  • I think that, you know, there's also a time where you don't I
  • try not to internalize as much as I did before.
  • And I tell people all the time that, you
  • know, there's times where I'm in places, and I look at people,
  • and whether I say it to them or I'm just thinking it,
  • it's like, A, this is not my problem.
  • B, this sounds like a personal problem.
  • And C, this sounds like something
  • you need to talk to your therapist
  • about (Bailey laughs).
  • And if I don't say it to them, I'm
  • keeping that in the back of my mind
  • so I don't internalize what they're saying to me.
  • I'll be there to support you.
  • I'll be there to help you with whatever,
  • and I'll be your biggest champion.
  • But I can't internalize it.
  • I can sympathize, and I can empathize with you.
  • I can, you know, do all of these things,
  • and be your biggest cheerleader or greatest champion for you.
  • But, you know, there's certain things
  • that you just can't internalize.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Well, and you have
  • to say where you begin and the other person ends,
  • and where you end and the other person begins.
  • And those boundaries are very important to maintain.
  • KRAIG PANNELL: They're important to define.
  • They are definitely important to maintain,
  • but they're also difficult to maintain.
  • And you have to allow yourself some fluidity
  • with those boundaries and be able to pull yourself back in.
  • Do I internalize things on a regular?
  • I do.
  • I'm human.
  • But I think it's important to recognize, you know, that
  • EVELYN BAILEY: That that's what you're doing.
  • KRAIG PANNELL: But as friends of mine and I say,
  • you have to own your own shit.
  • You have to own the good, the bad, and the ugly
  • about yourself.
  • You know, so if you own the good, the bad, and ugly
  • about yourself, with the good, you
  • know what you want to maintain, and you
  • know what you want to enhance.
  • With the bad, once you identify it, you can change it.
  • With the ugly look, you want to get rid of it?
  • Do something about it.
  • You have to own all of that about you.
  • And if you have that ownership about that stuff about you,
  • there's very little to anything that anyone else around you
  • can say to you that's going to hurt or harm you.
  • I know full well who I am.
  • And as we sit here in Creo, if somebody came over
  • here and said, look at that black, gay man, I'm like,
  • are you saying it like it hurts me?
  • I know that.
  • I own that.
  • And you saying that I'm like, it bothers
  • you more than it does me.
  • You know, so I own this.
  • And I know how people perceive me.
  • And I'm like, I can't change the way they think.
  • And I don't try to change the way
  • people perceive me or think.
  • You know, for the simple reason that if I see this,
  • you know, young man who's scared to walk into Creo,
  • and is just like, oh, that man's like me.
  • I can go in there, and I can be myself and be
  • comfortable with who I am.
  • I don't have to dumb myself down when I'm around people.
  • I can hold onto my intelligence and bring that out.
  • You know, I can be gay and employed.
  • You know, can be black and gay.
  • I can live in Albany or live in Atlanta.
  • You know, I don't necessarily view myself
  • as a role model on a regular basis, but it's like look,
  • this is what my experience has afforded me, and, you know,
  • I'm going to do what I need to do.
  • I try not to put myself in harm's way (Bailey laughs).
  • I try to be attentive of my surroundings.
  • But on the same token, I can' if I love myself,
  • I can't be ashamed of myself when I'm in public.
  • You know, this is me.
  • This is what you get.
  • Now, the way that I may act at the bar on Saturday night
  • and the way that I act sitting in this restaurant right
  • now might be two different things.
  • But it's about so I know my social surroundings.
  • But it doesn't dictate necessarily, you
  • know, am I going to be less animated
  • or, you know hide who I am.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: So final question.
  • What would you say to a young, gay, African-American male
  • who is just coming out?
  • What would you tell him about the road ahead?
  • What does he need to do to negotiate it?
  • KRAIG PANNELL: I'm a little far removed
  • from the youth of today, but (laughs) I think ultimately,
  • it's about have dreams.
  • Have hopes.
  • Have goals, have aspirations.
  • Be true to yourself in all things.
  • Always bring your authentic self to the table.
  • The road ahead is not going to be easy,
  • but you will get through it.
  • And if you have goals, dreams, aspirations,
  • and bring your authentic self to the table,
  • authentic people will join that journey,
  • and see you through your journey,
  • and be there for you when the times get rough.
  • But you'll be stronger.
  • And (pause) yeah, it's always a journey.
  • It's always a struggle.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Is there any joy?
  • KRAIG PANNELL: Oh, there's lots of joy.
  • There's lots of joy in the people
  • that come along your path that you find in your journey.
  • There's I've been blessed many times
  • over with wonderful people in my life
  • who have helped me through my struggle, who have helped me
  • through some dark times, who have helped me shape my dreams
  • and to realize my aspirations.
  • So the joy is in the experience.
  • It might be hard, but when you look back, and you can
  • I accomplished this, or I did that, or I made an impact here.
  • Or I'm better off today than I was however long ago,
  • whether it's minutes, hours, or seconds ago.
  • I feel better about what have you.
  • You don't necessarily know what you bring to other people
  • when you bring your authentic self into what you do.
  • And I was recently early part of the year,
  • I was in New York City with a couple of young men
  • a young man that I knew, I've known for about 10 years now.
  • He was in high school that time working in a restaurant
  • I would frequent.
  • And he was just like, you know looking at him
  • and talking about and he's talking
  • to me and another friend of ours,
  • you know, about how wonderful it was
  • for us to meet him when we did, because he wouldn't
  • be the man he is today.
  • And he's like, he often thinks about things
  • that we've said to him or whatever,
  • and especially bringing his authentic self to the table.
  • You know, he remembers that he's excelled and succeeded
  • in a lot of different ways.
  • Even a lot of the young people that I worked with at MOCHA
  • when I go back to Rochester, and I see them as young adults now,
  • they're like, you know, well, thank you so much
  • for x, y, and z.
  • And I'm like, I was just being me.
  • I was just there.
  • I didn't realize that you noticed these things.
  • But if you bring your authentic self to the table
  • and have passion about what you do, people see that.
  • You don't need to go around and brag about this, or that,
  • or whatever.
  • People see what you do.
  • And it's, you know, it comes across.
  • So just bring your authentic self to the table,
  • and those will be there for you.
  • And you'll see the joy.
  • The joy will happen.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Well, thank you
  • KRAIG PANNELL: You're welcome.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: very much for your passion, for your caring,
  • and for your wisdom.