Audio Interview, Kraig Pannell, October 3, 2012
- EVELYN BAILEY: Oh, and today is October 3rd, 2012.
- And I'm sitting here at Creo Restaurant in Albany.
- I have to come to Muhammed when Muhammed won't come to me.
- And I'm sitting here talking with Kraig Panell
- about his experiences being a gay man
- and growing up as a person of color
- and who recognized his being gay early on.
- So I just want to verify some facts.
- Where were you born, Kraig?
- KRAIG PANNELL: I was originally, I was born in Elmira, New York.
- And my mother and I moved to Rochester when I was two.
- And, you know, lived in Rochester in the suburbs
- until I graduated high school and went off to college.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Where did you go to high school?
- KRAIG PANNELL: I went to high school
- at Brockport High School.
- EVELYN BAILEY: OK, so you weren't living in the city.
- You were living
- KRAIG PANNELL: We were living in Hamlin, New York at the time.
- EVELYN BAILEY: OK.
- KRAIG PANNELL: We moved out to Hamlin from the city
- when I was in fifth grade.
- Moved out there and, you know, was out there until I graduated
- went to private school in Brockport.
- I went to Nativity in Brockport for fifth and sixth grade.
- Negotiated a deal with my mother to let
- me go to a public junior high school as opposed
- to a private high school.
- So I went to Brockport Junior High
- and when it came time to go to high school, I was like, OK,
- I'll go to a private high school then.
- You know, it just seemed to be a little bit
- much trying to get into the city to go to a private high school
- and all of that.
- So I just I stayed in that area I went to Brockport High
- and graduated from there.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Were you out in high school?
- KRAIG PANNELL: No.
- I wasn't out in high school.
- There were several people who were.
- I think in high school I knew that I was different.
- I knew that there was something different about me.
- But didn't really acknowledge it.
- I think I didn't acknowledge it because I felt that, you know,
- being out in Brockport was a very small area.
- It was very I think I needed in my mind,
- I needed to be somewhere that was more accepting and more
- open before I actually, you know, fully explored, you know,
- am I gay, am I this, am I that?
- I think I always knew.
- But there was a long period of time
- where I always like, you know, pray or think
- that like, you know, please let me be bisexual.
- Then that way it will be a little bit more palatable
- or you know I could kind of fake the funk a little bit easier
- and whatnot.
- But I think I knew and I think most people around me
- knew but it was never really a question or
- EVELYN BAILEY: Now what year are we talking
- when you were in high school?
- KRAIG PANNELL: I graduated from high school in '88.
- So my high school years were from '84 to '88.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Can you share with me
- a little bit about the town of Brockport or Hamlin.
- Was there much crime?
- KRAIG PANNELL: There wasn't much crime.
- Brockport and Hamlin sit west of,
- about twenty to thirty miles west of Rochester.
- You know, Hamlin was more so, there
- were some residential areas, but it was basically
- a farm community.
- There were like some housing subdivisions that were there.
- There were people who had lived there all of their lives.
- Brockport was a town, a suburb town of Rochester.
- There's a SUNY campus there.
- So they had, you know, we had access to the campus.
- And there was like graduate students
- and undergraduate students and a number of different disciplines
- that were there.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Did it have the flavor of a college town?
- KRAIG PANNELL: It did.
- It did.
- There were you know a number of like any college town.
- You know, there are a number of different bars and restaurants
- and you know, the off-campus housing
- that looks like Animal House.
- You know, there were and like the high school
- campus was like right next to the college campus.
- So like, you know, you would always see the college students
- or we could, like, easily go over to the college campus
- and walk around, which we frequently did
- or attend college functions and stuff.
- So it was an easy blend, it wasn't really drastic.
- Also living out in Hamlin in the Brockport area
- there weren't many people of color.
- There weren't any, there were very few
- African-American families that lived out that way.
- When I was in junior high school, I was, myself
- and one other woman in my class, were
- the only two African-Americans in the schools
- through K through sixth grade.
- She left in 5th grade and then in the school
- it was just my sister and I that were in there.
- In the High school, the majority of the African-American
- students were bussed in through our urban suburban program
- from Rochester to go to school in Brockport.
- And then I'll venture to say there
- may have been twenty African-American families that
- lived out there, several Latino families.
- So it wasn't extremely diverse, but it was (pause)
- EVELYN BAILEY: not
- KRAIG PANNELL: not too bad.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Not pure?
- KRAIG PANNELL: Right.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Did you ever experience any discrimination
- either in Rochester before you moved
- to Brockport or in Brockport because
- of your African-American heritage or?
- KRAIG PANNELL: In Rochester, I didn't
- I can't say that I experienced anything overtly.
- It was about the time we moved from Rochester out to Hamlin,
- I was in fifth grade, I was like maybe ten years old.
- So like, I knew that I was different
- because I went to private school.
- There weren't many ethnic minorities
- that went to private school.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- KRAIG PANNELL: So I knew that I was
- different from my surroundings.
- But the communities that I lived in
- were always ethnically diverse.
- There was always a number of different races and ethnicities
- within my neighborhood where I lived in Rochester.
- But going to school, I was one of a handful always.
- So any overt racism, I didn't necessarily experience.
- I think that, you know, my family
- may have noticed it and dealt with it.
- But it wasn't anything that, you know, at that age
- that I was aware of.
- When I went to junior high in Brockport
- and I was at a private school, you know,
- there was some taunting by an underclassmen.
- And, you know, I kind of just ignored it
- until I really couldn't take it any longer.
- And he said something to me, I don't recall what it was.
- I just remember picking him up by his neck
- and throwing him into the trash can. (laughs) You know
- EVELYN BAILEY: Were you expelled for that action?
- KRAIG PANNELL: No, no.
- My mother was called and was like, you know, I did that.
- And then I immediately had this I
- guess I had an emotional reaction because I don't like
- to get that upset and I don't like people
- to see me get that upset.
- And I was more mad at myself, not for what I did,
- but for allowing it to get to me to take me to that place.
- And the school knew and the administration at the school
- knew that it wasn't common behavior for me.
- They also knew that I had been taunted for a while
- and did nothing.
- And they were surprised at the fact
- that I hadn't done anything until that point.
- So it wasn't I didn't get expelled or anything like that,
- but it was definitely one of those things where, you know,
- parents were called and that type of thing.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And the witnesses were more than [one] raced?
- KRAIG PANNELL: Oh yeah.
- Oh yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And in high school?
- KRAIG PANNELL: High school, I think in high school
- because we had a lot of the students,
- the majority of the African-American students
- were being bussed in from Rochester,
- there was a good mix, there was a decent mix
- of people at the school.
- There were a number of but I also think at Brockport
- there were a great deal of migrant workers' children
- that would come into the school system
- at different times of the year.
- And I think they beared the brunt
- of a lot of different things from a lot of different angles.
- You know, we might see them there
- at the beginning of the semester and then not see them again
- until you know, they might be there like through November
- and then you don't see them again until April.
- And then, or there would be different
- people that would come in.
- So I think they, because their culture was different
- and their experience was different,
- you know, I think they beared the brunt
- of a lot of the racism, a lot of the hatred that was going on.
- In this school, there was power in numbers.
- So I think a lot of the students that were bussed in
- and doing the urban suburban program,
- you know, they were more aware of like racism overtly
- or covertly.
- So like if anything happened it was addressed.
- WAITRESS: Do you want some time, and I'll come back later?
- Because I have specials all day.
- KRAIG PANNELL: Thank you.
- So I think that they kind of enlightened the rest of us
- around what was going on.
- In high school I think there was only maybe one incident
- that I recall where somebody, you know, slung a racial slur
- my way.
- And you know I got fairly belligerent about my response
- to him.
- And you know, principals got called in,
- we sat down in the principal's office,
- then you know I had this whole thing.
- But I think most people I don't think never really
- said anything to my face because I was very,
- I wasn't confrontational, but I spoke my mind and you know,
- you knew where you stood and that was just me.
- EVELYN BAILEY: It didn't mess with you.
- KRAIG PANNELL: Not to my face anyway. (Bailey laughs)
- Not to my face.
- You know, there were things that I would
- hear through the grapevine.
- And I would say, well, you know, this is what I heard.
- And if you feel that way then fine.
- But you know, next time say it to me.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And what about college?
- Where did you go to college?
- KRAIG PANNELL: I went to Bucknell University
- in Lewisburg, Pennsylvania. (pause)
- College was a lot of things.
- It was, it was, um (pause)
- EVELYN BAILEY: Was let me get the racial thing out
- of the way.
- Did you experience any racism at Bucknell? (pause)
- Missed opportunities because you were African-American?
- KRAIG PANNELL: Oh no.
- No, no, no, no.
- I didn't miss any opportunities.
- I don't think that I think it was very covert.
- And like, when you think about the population of students
- and where they came from.
- There were students from all over the world that
- came to Bucknell.
- A vast majority of them were from families
- who had significant wealth.
- A lot of them, you know, boarding schools and this
- and that and the third thing.
- There was a, I'll say a fairly representative population
- of ethnic minorities and international students
- on campus.
- Percentage wise, I would say compared
- to the population of the United States at the time.
- So you know if it was like 10 percent African-American,
- there was like 10 percent African-Americans on campus.
- It was very representative that way.
- But not necessarily economically.
- There was a vast economic differences amongst people.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- KRAIG PANNELL: And there were some, you know,
- ethnic minorities that were on campus
- who also came from families of significant wealth.
- And international students who came from significant wealth
- as well.
- So you have this real diverse and disparate social class
- and strata that was there.
- So I think that at Bucknell there were
- some covert pieces of racism.
- There would be things that you would hear that people would
- say underneath their breath.
- I think there would be things that people would
- do that would be taken as racist, but most of the time,
- we took them as an educational moment.
- I think some people didn't necessarily
- view it as them being racist, whether it
- was them posting a sign and someone looking
- like they were in blackface.
- And you're like, you can't do that.
- Then they'd be like well why?
- This is a caricature, this is what
- whatever, and then you have to go through the whole history
- of it.
- So I think that in addressing, you know,
- what was racist or perceived to be racist on that campus,
- we tended to seize it as an educational moment.
- I was president of the Black Student Union
- and then we changed the name to the I
- don't know, instead of the Minority Student Union,
- we called it the we changed the name
- to a couple of different things.
- And I'll say for like about two and a half, three years,
- I was the president of that organization on campus.
- I was, you know, welcomed into, you
- know, receptions at the president's house
- on a regular basis, and student government
- to talk about different things, and invited
- to speak at forums about racial diversity
- and ethnic diversity on campus and you
- know what we wanted to do.
- But the school also had a very active social justice
- curriculum.
- They also had a, you know, African-American Studies
- program and, you know, a lot of classes on race, class,
- and gender on campus.
- So you had a lot of academics who
- were very interested in racial dynamics and ethnic dynamics
- and feminism and politics of power.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Pretty progressive.
- KRAIG PANNELL: Yeah, it was very progressive being there.
- And I think it's very surprising when,
- you know, you're in the middle of nowhere Pennsylvania,
- (Bailey laughs) you know, and the community
- is not that diverse.
- And when the college I want to say we
- had maybe three thousand students on campus
- that were so diverse and so different.
- Freshman year was difficult. I went to college
- thinking I'm going to be around people
- who are more worldly and more open and more understanding
- and not as judgmental.
- And I think that's where I felt that I
- was going to be able to come out and be able to do my coming out
- process and understand myself a little bit more and grow.
- But when I got there, I realized some of them
- are just the same people I went to high school
- with but just from a different area (both laugh).
- You know, whether it was their socioeconomic status,
- their race, their ethnicity, their mentality,
- their whatever, it was like, OK, I'm
- not in a place that's vastly different from where I went
- to high school where I live.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And not safe.
- KRAIG PANNELL: And I didn't, I never felt unsafe.
- I never felt unsafe there.
- But it was like it wasn't what I wanted college to be.
- I wanted it to be a more worldly place
- where I would be able to be to feel
- I could be a little bit freer and a little bit more
- expressive.
- Where I could, you know, grow and be my own person.
- And not to say that I didn't do that in college,
- but I think my freshman year and my first experience there,
- I was just very much like, oh my god.
- This is just not what I anticipated
- or what I expected college to be.
- EVELYN BAILEY: So when did you find that place?
- After you graduated obviously.
- KRAIG PANNELL: I think it was a process.
- I think, you know, it started in high school.
- But it was like, I also knew that there were certain things
- that I needed to accomplish.
- There were certain things I needed to achieve.
- There were certain expectations that
- were held of me, whether by myself, my family, or society.
- You know, I needed to achieve.
- I needed to
- EVELYN BAILEY: What was your degree in?
- KRAIG PANNELL: I have a degree in Political Science and Black
- Studies with an emphasis on American Politics and Policy.
- EVELYN BAILEY: So you were thinking maybe
- the presidency might be reachable,
- might be an obtainable goal.
- An achievement that wasn't expected, but would be greatly
- applauded.
- KRAIG PANNELL: I think that maybe as a policy advisor.
- But not necessarily the president.
- I didn't set my goals that lofty (both laugh).
- But yeah, I think that there were things that one,
- I wanted to achieve.
- And then two, that I felt that, you
- know, for me thinking about at the time
- it wasn't really cool to be gay.
- It wasn't one of those things that was accepted.
- It was one of those things where, we are also
- talking about at the beginning of the HIV/AIDS epidemic going
- on.
- And you have people talking about calling it GRID,
- and it's all about the gays are the ones who are doing it.
- And there's all of this vitriol going on about gay is this
- and gay is that.
- So you don't know what to say or how to feel
- or, like, you know, if I do come out,
- how is it going to received.
- And you know, I'm not the most masculine of people,
- but you know, it's like, you know you look at me,
- you can tell.
- Unless you're Helen Keller (Bailey laughs) or something
- like that.
- But it was also one of those things
- where I had to come to terms with it and I had to be
- and I think it was a process.
- And you know in college, I had some very supportive friends
- that I came out to in college.
- And they were understanding and changed nothing.
- Even after college as I began to come out to some of my friends
- more, they were very supportive.
- I had a couple of cousins who I told, but I was never,
- I was never really in an area where
- there was this active, vibrant, gay culture.
- I was living out in Brockport.
- When I left Rochester I was eighteen.
- You know, the drinking age was twenty-one.
- There was nowhere to really, no where
- that I knew of to really go and to meet other people.
- The one time I went into a gay bar in Rochester,
- it just seemed very predatory to me.
- And you know, that was just my perception and my fear.
- Not saying that it was or wasn't, but that's
- just how I perceived it at the time.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Where did you go after Bucknell?
- KRAIG PANNELL: After I graduated from Bucknell,
- I swore I would never live in the state of Pennsylvania
- again in my life.
- EVELYN BAILEY: So you moved to Pittsburgh?
- KRAIG PANNELL: One better.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Philadelphia?
- KRAIG PANNELL: No, one better.
- I moved to Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania,
- which is in the northeastern (Bailey laughs)
- section of Pennsylvania.
- And the Wilkes-Barre, Scranton area, just based like you
- know right there in a valley around the Poconos.
- Just so happened to be after graduating I
- came back to Rochester for several weeks.
- And just so happened that I interviewed for this job.
- They offered it to me and I moved down.
- So I went to work for King's College, which
- is a Catholic college run by the same
- the Holy Cross Fathers, which also run Notre Dame.
- And when I went there, I was the coordinator
- for multicultural and international students
- in the student affairs department.
- But I was also the minority student recruiter based out
- of admissions.
- So I had two titles, two job descriptions, one paycheck,
- and two offices (Bailey laughs).
- EVELYN BAILEY: So you worked eighty hours a week.
- KRAIG PANNELL: Seemed like it at the time.
- But you know at the time, you know, I'm in my early twenties,
- you know, the world is invincible,
- you can do anything.
- But you know, I also felt that it
- was a place where I could impact some of the incoming students.
- I wasn't that far removed from my own college experience
- so I could relate to the majority of them.
- You know, I enjoyed the travel trying to recruit students
- to come to the campus and whatnot.
- But it wasn't until I worked for that institution,
- that I realized how well I had it at Bucknell.
- And I did that for two years.
- And it was an interesting experience.
- I met some wonderful people, had some eye
- opening experiences, meeting some self-identified gay
- priest.
- You know, hearing them actually swear and curse and drink
- and smoke and all of these things
- that you know going to private school
- that you think priests don't do.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Religious women do it too.
- KRAIG PANNELL: Right (Bailey laughs), you know.
- So it opened my eyes to a number of different things.
- I was there were also, you know, stereotypical
- but in college student affairs there's
- a great number of LGBT individuals.
- I met some of them were in my student affairs department.
- So I created some friendships with my colleagues on campus.
- In the Wilkes-Barre, Scranton area
- there was an enormous population of LGBT people.
- And I swore that it was in the water.
- I'm like, where do you all come from (Bailey laughs)
- In a city this size, I think the whole one in ten rule
- didn't work.
- I think this is like one in four.
- So it was interesting.
- Then again, not a very diverse area,
- but very the gay community was very, welcoming and very
- EVELYN BAILEY: Was it organized?
- KRAIG PANNELL: No, not really.
- There was a community.
- There were a couple of I want to say like two small bars.
- One was like in this, I guess what
- would have been like an old house
- and like maybe couldn't hold more than sixty people.
- And I didn't go there but I heard about it.
- And like everybody would flock there.
- That's was the spot to be on certain nights.
- And we had another bar that was I guess more accustomed to what
- a bar would be today.
- Or what you would think of as a gay bar.
- And you know, pool table, bar stools and all that, you know.
- Not a large enough space, but people went there as well.
- So it was interesting.
- EVELYN BAILEY: When did your political roots
- and your community organizing roots take hold of you
- and catapult you into activism.
- KRAIG PANNELL: I think they've always been there.
- I think part of it was when I was at Bucknell,
- there were a number of different things that I was involved in.
- There were a number of things that faculty and administration
- would consult with myself and some of my other peers
- about around, you know, new policies and procedures
- or new academic requirements or courses they wanted to add.
- The educational portion of when, you know, things did happen
- on campus, let's address them.
- Let's not sweep them under the rug.
- Let's talk about, you know, the social political aspects
- of these actions on campus.
- And, you know, I think a lot of that
- was cultivated by Bucknell, and that's
- their process of doing things.
- So I was fairly active there, which
- I also think parlayed itself into when
- I started to work at King's and I moved to Wilkes Barre,
- noticing the difference between institutions.
- Also there it was one of those things where
- because I was the coordinator of multicultural and international
- students, unbeknownst to me, I didn't realize
- that I would be the go to person about what happens
- in the community as well.
- So there were times where there were swastikas
- painted on synagogues and that type of thing,
- or there'd be a number of other racial or ethnic motivated
- slurs and hate crimes that would happen.
- And they would want my opinion about it.
- And I'm like, I'm a transplant here.
- I don't know your community that well.
- But that was one of the roles at the university
- or the college played.
- So in that position, I had to make statements and be aware
- of what local politics were and what the local climate was
- and all of that.
- I think after I left King's, I really
- didn't want to get back into that role.
- I needed a break.
- Did high school, did four years of college,
- did two years of working, it just went on.
- And I was like, OK, I need something.
- So I worked in retail for about a year.
- Might be stereotypical, but I did.
- Did visual and blah, blah, blah.
- And I was fine.
- And it was that I didn't have to do
- all of that deep thought and deep thinking piece.
- But then the local AIDS council was looking for someone to
- EVELYN BAILEY: Was this in Wilkes-Barre?
- KRAIG PANNELL: This was in Wilkes-Barre.
- Their local AIDS council was looking
- to they had just received money to do a targeted outreach
- program for men who have sex with men.
- And somebody had pointed out to me,
- and I had never really thought about it.
- And then a friend of mine who was on the board of directors
- was like, you know, Kraig, you really
- need to apply for this position, you need to do whatever.
- So he gave me the announcement and I said, well,
- the posting is over.
- It's past due.
- It's bad form to, like, you know,
- submit a resume after the due date.
- You just don't do that.
- He was like, Kraig, just submit something.
- He's like, you already know the executive director.
- And he mentioned this guy's name and I'm like,
- I know him to see him, but I don't really
- have a rapport with him.
- So that night I went out and the executive director
- came up to me and introduced himself.
- And he was like, well, you haven't applied.
- I said, bad form, after the date, whatever.
- He's like, send me your resume.
- Whatever.
- So I do that, went, interviewed, and got the job.
- And the interesting thing about that was there
- was no (pause) I had to create the entire program.
- There was there was no target outreach done
- to men who have sex with men in the northeastern region
- of Pennsylvania.
- And when we're talking about creating a program,
- we're talking about creating a program for six counties.
- Six counties, most of which were rural.
- So it was a challenge, and it was fine.
- We were a small organization.
- It was some very dedicated people
- with complimentary skill sets and capacity
- and had a passion to kind of make a difference.
- So to get back to your question originally
- about my political activism and roots and things and whatnot,
- I think it was I've been there.
- You know, all of my life has been about social justice
- and my upbringing was about right is right
- and wrong is wrong and wrong will never be right.
- So that was what my family instilled in me.
- And I think Bucknell fortified some of that.
- And then the rest of my career kind of followed
- along those lines and snowballed that way.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And what brought you to Rochester?
- KRAIG PANNELL: After saying that I would not
- live in Pennsylvania ever again and after living there
- from '92 until 2001 (pause) it was time to come home.
- It was time.
- My family didn't necessarily like me living out of state.
- And they wanted me closer.
- So my grandmother had passed away earlier in 2001
- and was for me, that was devastating.
- But also at the time, when I was working,
- I don't know why I couldn't leave.
- I just felt like there was something
- that had to be done that wasn't done yet,
- and I didn't know what it was.
- Right around the time or shortly after my grandmother passed,
- I knew my work was done.
- And I knew whatever I was meant to do
- or destined to do there was done.
- Still to this day don't know what it was.
- But I felt my mission was complete.
- So I moved back.
- Here I am, thirty-one, almost thirty-two years old,
- hadn't really lived in Rochester since I was eighteen.
- Whole new world.
- (laughs)
- EVELYN BAILEY: And it was then that you
- were I think, correct me if I'm wrong, weren't you
- asked to join MOCHA?
- KRAIG PANNELL: When I came back to Rochester,
- I was working for what was at the time Community Health
- Network.
- And I had done part of my work with them.
- I did some collaborative work with MOCHA.
- And that's how I met Lee Carson and a couple of other staff
- over there.
- And Lee was like, we're looking for a program
- director at MOCHA.
- And I was like, well, no, I got here.
- I don't really know much about it, whatever.
- And I kind of pushed back a little bit.
- And then they asked me to be on their board of directors.
- And I said, I can do that.
- So that way I can learn a little bit more about Rochester,
- learn a little bit more about the community
- and the organization.
- From being on their board and the work that I was doing
- in the community otherwise, there was a real push
- by the organization to find they had
- a program director in Buffalo.
- They needed a program director in the Rochester office.
- So they had a consultant go and, you know, do
- a community assessment and poll the community about who
- they think they should entertain or the qualities
- about the program director and so on and so forth.
- You know, so after he did his whole little thing,
- came back and reported that the general consensus
- in the community was that the program director should be me.
- Much to my surprise, because I was like,
- I didn't really think that I was that well known in Rochester
- or, you know, whatever.
- So at that time, they decided to do
- I think I had stepped off of the board for other reasons.
- And then they started to do a search.
- So I had, you know, waited and waited
- and I threw my hat in the ring and went and interviewed
- and blah, blah, blah, and ultimately became the program
- director for MOCHA in Rochester for their Rochester office.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Now step back for a minute.
- What is MOCHA?
- MOCHA is an acronym for?
- KRAIG PANNELL: MOCHA started out as an acronym for Men
- Of Color Health Awareness Project.
- I can't right now offhand I can't remember
- the exact year they started.
- I want to say '95.
- It was started by a group of African American men who
- felt that their needs weren't being met in Rochester as
- far as their HIV/AIDS prevention needs
- or they weren't being represented
- as part of the gay community.
- So they wanted something that represented them.
- So they started the organization.
- And from my understanding, Gary English
- was the first executive director of MOCHA.
- And they worked collaboratively with a number of different
- organizations to kind of establish themselves and get
- their 501(c)(3) status and state funding and all of that stuff.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Advocacy?
- KRAIG PANNELL: They did advocacy.
- From my understanding, that's how they received
- a lot of their early funding.
- They did advocacy around HIV/AIDS prevention
- for men of color.
- Whether it was locally or with the state.
- Also in collaboration with the Center for Health
- and Behavioral Training developed
- an evidence based intervention specifically
- targeting men of color, which is called Many Men, Many Voices.
- And,you know, that particular evidenced based intervention is
- part of the CDC's DEBI program, which is Diffusion of Evidence
- Based Interventions that is used nationally and even
- internationally now.
- EVELYN BAILEY: So it was education and?
- KRAIG PANNELL: They did education, prevention,
- social support, you know, whatever needed to be done
- and whatever they tried to meet the majority of the need.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Was MOCHA the counterpart
- to AIDS Rochester in the African American community?
- KRAIG PANNELL: I can't really say, because I wasn't there
- at the time.
- But from what I've learned, MOCHA never
- necessarily wanted to be the counterpart to AIDS Rochester.
- It was like, here's these gaps, and we're
- going to fill these gaps for our community.
- We're going to provide services by us, for us.
- There were, you know some client service navigation pieces
- to kind of, like, you know, to get people through the system
- and help them navigate the system
- to get them to services that AIDS Rochester may provide
- or that CHN was providing or a number of the other
- larger organizations.
- But it was kind of like, you know, let me have home base
- and let me be able to talk to people so
- that way we can get our services and have our support needs
- met and we can advocate for ourselves.
- And they tried to teach people how to advocate for themselves,
- but also navigate whatever they needed.
- And a lot of the advocacy of MOCHA was around love.
- You're not contributing dollars for prevention.
- You're not contributing dollars to provide supportive services.
- How do you do that and what does that look like?
- And that's what MOCHA was.
- EVELYN BAILEY: What was the biggest or major obstacle
- to getting the services that African American men needed?
- KRAIG PANNELL: There weren't people that looked
- like us providing the service.
- There was a cultural competency piece.
- There was a whole lack of understanding.
- There's the whole (pause) lack of trust.
- There's a lot of historical significance that goes back,
- you know, that I think with most racial and ethnic populations.
- There's a lot of distrust with the medical field.
- There's a lot of distrust from you're not
- going to tell me the right thing,
- because one, you don't look like me, two,
- you're trying to keep something for yourself.
- But I don't think there were a whole lot of services that
- were marketed or targeted towards that population
- to say, look, we want you here.
- We're inviting you in.
- We want you have a place at our table.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Within the African American community,
- who were the most supportive? (pause)
- Were there specific agencies that really came to your stood
- with you?
- KRAIG PANNELL: I think at the time, because let's undersatnd,
- I wasn't at MOCHA in the whole '95 and all of that.
- I kind of came in 2004.
- So when I came in, there was
- EVELYN BAILEY: ABC?
- KRAIG PANNELL: ABC was there, but ABC didn't really
- do a lot of stuff regarding they did stuff with people of color
- and they did stuff with African American people,
- but they didn't necessarily deal with LGBT people specifically.
- And then you have that whole black church
- piece that's there as well.
- There were organizations that wanted to collaborate.
- There was (unintelligible), there was ABC,
- there was Westside Health Services, Anthony Jordan
- Medical Services, SHN.
- Everybody wanted to kind of collaborate and do stuff
- and they knew that services need to be provided
- for that population, but the only organization
- that knew how to access that population was MOCHA.
- And I think a lot of people felt that, we're
- going to collaborate with MOCHA because it gives us entry
- to this distinct population.
- But then again, you also have to understand
- the difficult part is there's a lot of people of color
- who I don't identify as gay first.
- And that's different than when you're talking
- about some other communities.
- Because some other communities, well, who are you?
- Well, I'm a gay Italian man.
- Or I'm a white lesbian whatever.
- And their sexuality is first.
- And a lot of ethnic minority communities,
- their sexuality is something that
- goes further down the line.
- So you have to be able to know how to approach that.
- So you're going into an organization and it's like,
- you know, don't put me in this box automatically
- or think because I am a gay man, I do these things.
- There's other things that I may do
- or there might be things that I don't do.
- So it was about things being very prescriptive and not
- individualized.
- And there's a language difference.
- There's, you know, whatever.
- And not to say that it's only with that
- it was a cultural issue across racial or ethnic lines.
- I mean
- EVELYN BAILEY: Economic lines.
- KRAIG PANNELL: It's across the board.
- I mean, even when I had moved back to Rochester
- and would go out, there were a lot of black gay men
- that treated me very differently.
- And they treated me very differently
- because of the fact that, you know, oh, you have an education
- or oh, you have a job or oh, you have a career.
- All of these things which are typically attributes.
- Oh, you wouldn't know anything about struggle
- or you wouldn't know anything about strife.
- And they, like, completely discounted me
- because I had an education and these things.
- And it happened to me more than once.
- And that was very overt.
- There were people that were very about that.
- Oh, you think you're bougie, you think you're better,
- and so on and so forth.
- And I distinctly remember, you know, sitting somewhere
- and this guy was like, well, Kraig wouldn't know anything
- about that because he's a decent white woman.
- And I looked at him and I said, yes I am.
- If you want to call because I know what fork to eat with
- and how to speak and how to write and all this other stuff,
- being a decent white woman, then fine.
- If you want to call the fact that I saw an opportunity and I
- chose to take that opportunity and make
- the best of it, then fine.
- You may not have had the opportunities presented to you
- that I had to me, but it doesn't make
- me any less black than you.
- It doesn't make my experience any less valid or less
- of a struggle than yours.
- Because no, I don't know what it's like to stand on line
- and get cheese.
- I don't know what it's like to open a cupboard
- and have nothing in the closet.
- I don't know what it's like to have
- to do a number of different things
- that you may have experienced.
- But it doesn't make me any less black.
- Because when I walk out the door,
- that's the first thing that people see.
- And if I have to battle them and I
- have to battle you at the same time, what's going on?
- And a lot of people didn't understand that.
- And also when I went to MOCHA there was a lot of push
- back by some people.
- And there were ways that I would organize things
- and I would do events and I would do things.
- I don't mind a cookout.
- I don't mind doing, you know, very comfortable events.
- But there were other things where, like, look,
- we need to step it up a bit to attract some different folks.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Well, professional organizations
- need to present themselves in certain ways.
- Otherwise they aren't accepted by others.
- KRAIG PANNELL: And that was a large part
- of what was going on with MOCHA when I came on in 2004
- was that people were like, oh, they really don't do anything.
- They have this money and it's all social
- and laughs and fun and whatever.
- You're not really making an impact on anything.
- So when I went in, I'm like, OK, we have these programs.
- What is the purpose of the program?
- I walk the staff through stuff.
- Tell me why we do this and what people
- are supposed to get out of it?
- OK, so now when you go to do this group,
- remember this is where you're supposed to get people to.
- So this is the purpose of this.
- And kind of re-framing things and restructuring stuff.
- Because it was pervasive in the community.
- It was like, OK, you're basically a social club.
- You're not really getting anything done.
- You're not making an impact with what's going on.
- And it was important for me to go there and be
- able to begin to quantify the work that we were doing
- or the work with the capacity and skills
- that was within the organization and to give it a more (pause)
- to still let it be comfortable for everyone to come in
- and let it be what it represented in the community,
- but then also to be able to have it be somewhere where, you
- know, you can't knock the winds out of our sails
- because we are having an impact, and here's the impact
- that we're having.
- Just because it doesn't look like what you're used to
- doesn't mean it's not happening.
- But I also felt that the community deserves, the people
- of color community, deserved a place
- that they could go in and feel comfortable and not
- have it look like it needed to look and to be
- what it needed to be.
- You know, it didn't
- EVELYN BAILEY: It could be inclusive of them
- versus (unintelligible).
- Did by the time you came on board,
- HIV had really become less, in a sense, a gay disease and more
- of a drug culture disease.
- There was a time when sexual activity was the prime
- KRAIG PANNELL: Mode of transmission
- EVELYN BAILEY: Thing that caused HIV.
- And then it moved to the drug culture with the needles.
- Did that make a difference in how MOCHA did its program,
- or how?
- KRAIG PANNELL: It depends on which population
- you're talking about.
- I mean, yeah, the gay community as a whole did a great deal
- to educate and to reduce numbers of HIV cases
- in men who have sex with men and sexual modes of transmission.
- There was a spike in intravenous drug use.
- But the other thing that had happened
- was that you also still had a disproportionate amounts
- of African American men and Latino men who
- were having sex with men who were contracting HIV
- disproportionately.
- So, you know, overall big picture,
- it's either staying steady or it's reducing.
- But then if you looked at it ethically,
- you still had African American men
- who have sex with men and Latino men
- who have sex with men who were disproportionately
- impacted and affected by HIV.
- So there was that whole piece that was going on.
- But then also at the time that I came in,
- you had the numbers of newly diagnosed cases
- may have gone down, but you had more people living
- with HIV because of the fact that there was medication.
- So you had people who were living longer,
- people who may had been ailing earlier on
- but now are getting better and stronger and living lives.
- You have, you know, people living on into senior years
- and what's going on with that.
- KRAIG PANNELL: So I think within the ethnic minority community,
- we still have the same mission.
- We still had to, like, you know stop new infection.
- There was testing and treatment that needed to be done.
- There was education that needed to take place.
- You know, we needed to address other behaviors that
- go on that also can cause transmissions that people may
- not necessarily talk about when they go in and get a test
- and identify in one way or the other.
- So we have to talk, but, you know,
- it's not so much to talk about and advocate
- for the use of condoms.
- You have to begin to be able to this is how you do it.
- You had to show people how to do it.
- You had to have open and candid conversations about it.
- You need it to start young.
- You know, there's a number of different things and avenues
- that you have to do in order one,
- to encourage somebody to get a test.
- And then two, to actually get them engaged in care.
- And then three, to maintain them in care.
- Because you're talking about trying
- to get a seventeen year-old person to get tested, find out
- if they're and if they are newly diagnosed,
- how do you get them to care, and how do you maintain care?
- And then it was also around that time
- when HIV became not necessarily seen as a deadly disease.
- It became a chronic illness.
- So you have people who were like, look, well,
- if I get it today, and I'm twenty,
- I'm not going die until I'm forty-five
- And I didn't plan on living past forty-five anyway,
- so let me just go on and do what I need to do
- and be happy between twenty and forty-five.
- Or I'm more worried about stepping out my front door
- and being hit by a car, or a stray bullet, or whatever else.
- Contracting HIV is the last thing on my mind.
- So, you know, there's the whole perception of risk perception,
- and severity, and susceptibility.
- And then also in order to get people into care
- or to talk about where their greatest need is,
- you have to look at their hierarchy of need.
- Their hierarchy of need might be like, look,
- I've got to put food on the table today.
- And if I go out here and get on this corner,
- or go online and get this man, he's
- going to give me this much money to do it without a condom.
- Whereas otherwise, I'm going to get this.
- But I can take that money and fill my refrigerator
- for a week, or I can eat for a day.
- So what am I going to do?
- I'm just going to take my chances.
- And as I alluded to, you also have
- the advent of the dynamic of how people met and hooked up
- changed.
- You had the whole online culture and all of these other things
- to tend with.
- So there was this whole societal shift.
- There was this whole shift in the viewpoint of the epidemic.
- And it was no longer viewed as specifically a gay disease.
- There were people from all walks of life
- contracting it and being a little bit more out about it.
- So there was a huge shift in the dynamic
- of how things had to be done and what that looks like.
- EVELYN BAILEY: When you look back
- at the time you were involved with MOCHA in Rochester,
- what are you most proud of?
- KRAIG PANNELL: (laughs)
- I think , I don't I think "proud's" too strong.
- I think I appreciate my entire experience with MOCHA.
- EVELYN BAILEY: What do you think you accomplished from MOCHA?
- KRAIG PANNELL: I was a part of helping
- them get their first two federally-funded contracts, one
- through HRSA, which is the Health Research Service
- Administration out of the federal government,
- and then also with the Office of Minority Health.
- Expanded the organization from a staff of three
- to a staff of twelve within nine months.
- Helped to create, or adapt and tailor,
- Many Men, Many Voices into Young Men,
- Young Voices, which is a HIV/AIDS prevention
- intervention targeting young men who have sex with men.
- I think, you know (pause) But it wasn't solely me.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Understood.
- But accomplishment starts with leadership at the top,
- not at the bottom.
- And my experience of you has been
- less in terms of organization, even though we've
- interacted on that level.
- But you mentioned earlier the drive to achieve things
- and to accomplish things.
- And that things had been expected of you,
- and you knew they were expected.
- And you rose to that occasion and met the expectation.
- My interactions with you have only reinforced my belief
- that you are not only a caring and compassionate man,
- but you are driven by a sense of justice, a sense of equality,
- and wanting people to be healthy across the board,
- whether it's healthily legally, healthily physically,
- healthy psychologically.
- And from my perspective, your presence in Rochester,
- even for the short time you were there,
- had a tremendous impact on the community,
- primarily because you thought outside a box.
- And you called other people to do that with you.
- And you challenged people to not maintain the status quo,
- but to confront it and move it forward.
- Now, those are my words.
- And I know you can't say that!
- (both laugh)
- KRAIG PANNELL: No, and I appreciate it.
- I do, I really do.
- EVELYN BAILEY: So I will say it.
- But I also have to ask you, were there any times in your life
- when you were not proud to be Kraig Pannell?
- When you did not feel Kraig Pannell was
- worth a whole lot more than just the bones and flesh you are?
- KRAIG PANNELL: I can't think of a particular moment.
- There are times where, you know, we can,
- we tend to be our own worst enemy.
- And we tend to beat ourselves up.
- And there are times where I've gone through, you know,
- some found myself in some very dark spaces.
- And not because of an instance or outside people.
- I think maybe because I set my expectation too high,
- and I didn't meet my expectation,
- whether that was personally, professionally, socially,
- or what have you.
- And there's times where I tend to take myself
- a little too seriously, or take situations
- a little too seriously.
- And it's only recently where I've
- been able to back up and be like, it's not that deep.
- It's not that serious.
- And, you know, there are certain situations
- which are truly temporary.
- You know, for me to sit here and say
- that have I contemplated hurting or harming myself?
- I have.
- But fortunately for me, you know,
- I either had the presence of mind
- not to go any further than a thought,
- or I had support that was there that allowed me
- to kind of reel myself back in.
- But, I think, you know, there's I
- can't think of a particular instance
- where I was really, really upset, or disappointed,
- or whatever.
- There's the typical things that you see in movies.
- There's the heartbreak, and there's the loneliness,
- and the getting older and finding the first gray hair,
- and all of that stuff.
- But I think
- EVELYN BAILEY: And I think if we're honest with ourselves,
- there's not a person who has not thought at one point or another
- that not being here would be far better than being here.
- And that there are options we could exercise if we so
- chose to exercise them.
- KRAIG PANNELL: Right.
- And I think, you know, for me, as I said,
- I think it was more so my own internal struggle with
- and it wasn't necessarily around my sexuality.
- It wasn't about my race.
- I just felt internally, I felt a lot of pain,
- and I wanted the internal pain to stop.
- And I didn't know, you know, what it was.
- If I tried to change things personally,
- or tried things professionally, or this or that,
- it wasn't satisfying.
- And I still felt some semblance of pain.
- And it wasn't something that I felt that I could really
- talk to people about.
- It wasn't something that I felt that I wasn't worried
- about people's perception of me, but it was also something
- I couldn't articulate.
- I couldn't verbalize.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Well, there are some things
- that are so personal and intimate that we choose
- not to share them, because we don't
- have that level of communication with everyone.
- And it's not to be shared with everyone.
- KRAIG PANNELL: True, and I think it was also that
- and this was, I'll say not so long ago, maybe
- within the past two years.
- But whether it was my work that kept me going,
- like I need to get up and do something greater than myself.
- Whether it was, this is going to be
- my distraction from whatever, it had to happen.
- And fortunately for me, I'm in a position where
- you know, there was a night where I was like, look,
- this is what I want to do.
- And something happened I got distracted.
- And I fell asleep on the bed and didn't follow through
- on something.
- There's some kind of divine intervention around that.
- But that was the point when I was like, OK, Kraig,
- you need to get professional help.
- And I went, and (pause) it works.
- I don't necessarily know what the whole thing was.
- But there's this whole thing around getting
- professional help.
- There's this whole stigma around it.
- And, you know, honestly, I sit, I go,
- I have this open dialogue without judgment.
- And I don't know what it is, but, you know,
- it gets me through.
- But it also helps me to process.
- I don't think it's a bad thing.
- I think if more people actually access the resources that
- are out there for them I can't say the entire world would
- be a better place, but I think people would feel a whole lot
- better about themselves.
- But I also think
- EVELYN BAILEY: Well
- KRAIG PANNELL: Go ahead.
- EVELYN BAILEY: You obviously have
- a sense of not only who you are, but of
- what sits right with you, and what
- sits not so right with you.
- And you look at and reflect upon those things pretty critically.
- There are two messages in there one, don't bury things.
- Keep them in the forefront.
- And two, when your thought and your heart
- is not able to cope with what's going on, to reach out.
- And I think for young people especially who I mean,
- when you're gay, and you discover
- you're gay, you spend more time thinking about what that is
- and what that isn't, and who you are
- and who you aren't, than 90 percent of the population.
- And so your introspection can lead
- to some pretty critical discoveries
- that can either throw you, or frighten you, or put you
- in a spin.
- And at those times, you need someone to talk to.
- You need someone to reach out and say,
- this is what's going on.
- Non-judgmentally, and just listen and offer
- whatever positive direction might be.
- KRAIG PANNELL: We all need an outlet, whatever that may be.
- For some people, it's music.
- For others, it's writing.
- For some people, it's exercise or something.
- And, you know, for me, I began to keep a journal,
- and it was an open and honest journal.
- I wasn't worried about punctuation.
- I wasn't worried about whatever.
- It was just like, I have to get this out.
- And it didn't necessarily take away what I was feeling,
- but it took away the intensity of what I was feeling.
- And so that allowed me to be able to move forward and go on.
- I think that, you know, there's also a time where you don't I
- try not to internalize as much as I did before.
- And I tell people all the time that, you
- know, there's times where I'm in places, and I look at people,
- and whether I say it to them or I'm just thinking it,
- it's like, A, this is not my problem.
- B, this sounds like a personal problem.
- And C, this sounds like something
- you need to talk to your therapist
- about (Bailey laughs).
- And if I don't say it to them, I'm
- keeping that in the back of my mind
- so I don't internalize what they're saying to me.
- I'll be there to support you.
- I'll be there to help you with whatever,
- and I'll be your biggest champion.
- But I can't internalize it.
- I can sympathize, and I can empathize with you.
- I can, you know, do all of these things,
- and be your biggest cheerleader or greatest champion for you.
- But, you know, there's certain things
- that you just can't internalize.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Well, and you have
- to say where you begin and the other person ends,
- and where you end and the other person begins.
- And those boundaries are very important to maintain.
- KRAIG PANNELL: They're important to define.
- They are definitely important to maintain,
- but they're also difficult to maintain.
- And you have to allow yourself some fluidity
- with those boundaries and be able to pull yourself back in.
- Do I internalize things on a regular?
- I do.
- I'm human.
- But I think it's important to recognize, you know, that
- EVELYN BAILEY: That that's what you're doing.
- KRAIG PANNELL: But as friends of mine and I say,
- you have to own your own shit.
- You have to own the good, the bad, and the ugly
- about yourself.
- You know, so if you own the good, the bad, and ugly
- about yourself, with the good, you
- know what you want to maintain, and you
- know what you want to enhance.
- With the bad, once you identify it, you can change it.
- With the ugly look, you want to get rid of it?
- Do something about it.
- You have to own all of that about you.
- And if you have that ownership about that stuff about you,
- there's very little to anything that anyone else around you
- can say to you that's going to hurt or harm you.
- I know full well who I am.
- And as we sit here in Creo, if somebody came over
- here and said, look at that black, gay man, I'm like,
- are you saying it like it hurts me?
- I know that.
- I own that.
- And you saying that I'm like, it bothers
- you more than it does me.
- You know, so I own this.
- And I know how people perceive me.
- And I'm like, I can't change the way they think.
- And I don't try to change the way
- people perceive me or think.
- You know, for the simple reason that if I see this,
- you know, young man who's scared to walk into Creo,
- and is just like, oh, that man's like me.
- I can go in there, and I can be myself and be
- comfortable with who I am.
- I don't have to dumb myself down when I'm around people.
- I can hold onto my intelligence and bring that out.
- You know, I can be gay and employed.
- You know, can be black and gay.
- I can live in Albany or live in Atlanta.
- You know, I don't necessarily view myself
- as a role model on a regular basis, but it's like look,
- this is what my experience has afforded me, and, you know,
- I'm going to do what I need to do.
- I try not to put myself in harm's way (Bailey laughs).
- I try to be attentive of my surroundings.
- But on the same token, I can' if I love myself,
- I can't be ashamed of myself when I'm in public.
- You know, this is me.
- This is what you get.
- Now, the way that I may act at the bar on Saturday night
- and the way that I act sitting in this restaurant right
- now might be two different things.
- But it's about so I know my social surroundings.
- But it doesn't dictate necessarily, you
- know, am I going to be less animated
- or, you know hide who I am.
- EVELYN BAILEY: So final question.
- What would you say to a young, gay, African-American male
- who is just coming out?
- What would you tell him about the road ahead?
- What does he need to do to negotiate it?
- KRAIG PANNELL: I'm a little far removed
- from the youth of today, but (laughs) I think ultimately,
- it's about have dreams.
- Have hopes.
- Have goals, have aspirations.
- Be true to yourself in all things.
- Always bring your authentic self to the table.
- The road ahead is not going to be easy,
- but you will get through it.
- And if you have goals, dreams, aspirations,
- and bring your authentic self to the table,
- authentic people will join that journey,
- and see you through your journey,
- and be there for you when the times get rough.
- But you'll be stronger.
- And (pause) yeah, it's always a journey.
- It's always a struggle.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Is there any joy?
- KRAIG PANNELL: Oh, there's lots of joy.
- There's lots of joy in the people
- that come along your path that you find in your journey.
- There's I've been blessed many times
- over with wonderful people in my life
- who have helped me through my struggle, who have helped me
- through some dark times, who have helped me shape my dreams
- and to realize my aspirations.
- So the joy is in the experience.
- It might be hard, but when you look back, and you can
- I accomplished this, or I did that, or I made an impact here.
- Or I'm better off today than I was however long ago,
- whether it's minutes, hours, or seconds ago.
- I feel better about what have you.
- You don't necessarily know what you bring to other people
- when you bring your authentic self into what you do.
- And I was recently early part of the year,
- I was in New York City with a couple of young men
- a young man that I knew, I've known for about 10 years now.
- He was in high school that time working in a restaurant
- I would frequent.
- And he was just like, you know looking at him
- and talking about and he's talking
- to me and another friend of ours,
- you know, about how wonderful it was
- for us to meet him when we did, because he wouldn't
- be the man he is today.
- And he's like, he often thinks about things
- that we've said to him or whatever,
- and especially bringing his authentic self to the table.
- You know, he remembers that he's excelled and succeeded
- in a lot of different ways.
- Even a lot of the young people that I worked with at MOCHA
- when I go back to Rochester, and I see them as young adults now,
- they're like, you know, well, thank you so much
- for x, y, and z.
- And I'm like, I was just being me.
- I was just there.
- I didn't realize that you noticed these things.
- But if you bring your authentic self to the table
- and have passion about what you do, people see that.
- You don't need to go around and brag about this, or that,
- or whatever.
- People see what you do.
- And it's, you know, it comes across.
- So just bring your authentic self to the table,
- and those will be there for you.
- And you'll see the joy.
- The joy will happen.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Well, thank you
- KRAIG PANNELL: You're welcome.
- EVELYN BAILEY: very much for your passion, for your caring,
- and for your wisdom.