Audio Interview, Larry Fine, March 21, 1973

  • LARRY FINE: At about that time I felt
  • that Rochester was not really the place I wanted to live.
  • And I had ideas about traveling to some other parts
  • of the country.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: You took off for Lincoln, Nebraska.
  • LARRY FINE: Well, actually I didn't
  • know I would end up in Lincoln, Nebraska.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: At the time, I remember
  • thinking that you had practically exiling yourself.
  • LARRY FINE: I decided to go on a vacation
  • in the middle of August.
  • And I think I had thoughts only in the very back of my mind
  • that I might not return.
  • I got rid of as many responsibilities as I could
  • and I was going to visit a friend in Denver.
  • I planned my stopover points at nights
  • to coincide with places where there were gay liberation
  • groups, so I could find a place to stay at night.
  • One of the places was Lincoln, Nebraska.
  • The night that I got there they happened
  • to have one of their biweekly coffeehouses.
  • And I met a lot of really nice people
  • there and told them that I would return after I
  • visited my friend in Denver.
  • And I did and I liked the place a lot.
  • And I just decided to do one of those spontaneous and
  • ridiculously unpredictable moves and move there.
  • And it was one of the best things I ever did.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Well, now when you're
  • involved in gay activities in Lincoln, the heartland,
  • that you hardly ever hear about.
  • LARRY FINE: Lincoln is very much misunderstood in most places
  • in the country, especially in the metropolitan areas.
  • People think that it's just a small farm town,
  • or that they do nothing but grow corn there, or whatever.
  • And Lincoln is actually a fairly good sized town,
  • about close to half the size of Rochester I'd say,
  • about 150,000 people.
  • It's the state capital of the Nebraska
  • and it has a large university.
  • University of Nebraska has about 20,000 students.
  • It's actually more liberal a place than Rochester.
  • For instance, it went very heavily
  • McGovern in the last election.
  • And a lot of alternative lifestyles, long hair,
  • and all of those kinds of things are more readily
  • accepted there than they were until fairly recently,
  • say even in Rochester.
  • Now, the rest of Nebraska is very different, of course.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Well, I have the impression
  • that the middle west is perhaps more liberal than given credit
  • for, it always has been liberal to certain degree.
  • There's a certain type of liberalism
  • that has come out of the middle west.
  • I know, for example, that some states
  • are much closer in the middle west
  • to legalizing marijuana use than--
  • LARRY FINE: Well, you almost have to.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: --liberal New York is here.
  • LARRY FINE: In Nebraska, it grows in your backyard.
  • There's a limit to how much they could do to you.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: I see.
  • LARRY FINE: They try, but--
  • BRUCE JEWELL: It's ecology.
  • LARRY FINE: Really.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: So what is happening
  • in the way of gay activities in Lincoln?
  • LARRY FINE: Well the gay action group in Lincoln
  • began just around the time that the University of Rochester GLF
  • started in October, November 1970.
  • And it started as a university organization.
  • Its first event, I guess was to start a coffee house.
  • And it's still called the coffee house, but really it's a dance.
  • It grew larger and larger.
  • And that's the main function of the group.
  • Well, I won't say the main purpose,
  • but the main function, continuing function
  • that's ongoing is the coffee house every other Sunday night.
  • And it draws anywhere between one and 200 people,
  • this is in Lincoln, Nebraska.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: That's better than we do here
  • in Rochester, actually.
  • LARRY FINE: Really.
  • There are no gay bars in Lincoln,
  • so it serves a similar purpose to that.
  • But lately there's been much more of a feeling of community
  • there, less of a cruising feeling.
  • And there's some cruising, of course.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Well, I would hope so.
  • LARRY FINE: Yeah.
  • There's no reason why there shouldn't be.
  • But there's also a feeling of people wanting
  • to go there to dance with their friends
  • and it's a good feeling.
  • There have been a lot of complaints about it
  • because the music is very loud and the lights
  • tend to be very dim.
  • But it certainly serves a purpose.
  • Since then, there also been some discussion groups started
  • on various evenings.
  • And here and there a little bit of political activity
  • and talking to some state senators
  • about repealing sodomy law, things like that.
  • But political activities are not in the forefront.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: I understand you now have a bar as well as--
  • LARRY FINE: Well, that's very, very recent in Lincoln.
  • There's always been the bar in Omaha--
  • one gay bar in Omaha, which everyone would go to.
  • But Omaha's fifty miles away.
  • Under the leadership of the women,
  • who had separated themselves from the gay action group
  • and really gotten themselves together
  • much better than the men ever did,
  • it was announced that a particular bar, which
  • was a straight redneck bar, but was practically
  • going into bankruptcy--
  • that this particular bar welcomed new patronage.
  • And one of the women happened to know
  • someone who worked at the bar and told
  • the manager that, well, maybe we should make this into a gay bar
  • and the manager might make a little money.
  • Well, one night a hundred of us--
  • actually I shouldn't say us, I wasn't there.
  • I was sick with a very bad chest cold and laryngitis.
  • But this happened about a month ago or three weeks ago.
  • A hundred people went to the bar and started dancing.
  • And there was a little bit of hassle,
  • there was one fight that some straight guy picked.
  • But the manager clearly let him know
  • who's side he was on and bounced them out pretty quickly.
  • The band loved us.
  • We love to dance.
  • The straight people never danced very much
  • and when they did it was kind of a very slow, stiff-legged kind
  • of dance.
  • The band for once didn't just have
  • to play country music, country western music.
  • They could play some boogie stuff
  • and they really got off on us.
  • The problem, of course, will be to keep this going.
  • This particular bar is not very close to downtown,
  • it's a little bit on the outlying areas.
  • And it's not easy to get to if you don't have transportation.
  • So it'll be a problem keeping enough support,
  • so that it can remain a place that we can go, and dance,
  • and be ourselves-- without having
  • to worry about people kicking us or shoving us around.
  • We don't necessarily want it to be
  • an exclusively homosexual bar.
  • We welcome heterosexuals who want to dance, you know,
  • if they can be with us there.
  • There's a lot of enthusiasm that's
  • been generated out of this and there's
  • some people who want to liberate a bar a month in Lincoln,
  • but I'm not sure that'll happen.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: You periodically come back here to Rochester
  • as a student at the Empire State College.
  • You didn't entirely lose your interest
  • in academic activities.
  • LARRY FINE: That's true.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: What are you engaged in?
  • LARRY FINE: Well, under my parents influence, especially,
  • in urging me to get my B.A., I've
  • gone back to school under a program
  • of the State University of New York called Empire State
  • College.
  • If you're familiar at all with the concept called
  • "University Without Walls," that some colleges have,
  • this is similar.
  • There is no set curriculum or course of study.
  • And you don't have to have a major,
  • declare any particular major.
  • You can do almost anything from reading ten books to meditating
  • in a cave, although they do like you
  • to have a program of somewhat cohesive
  • and revolves around some kind of central theme.
  • You can get a four year degree in this college
  • or you can transfer credits from some other place.
  • You can do it in conjunction with a job
  • or some kind of interest that you have.
  • And I decided that if I was going to get my B.A.
  • I would do it in the area of gay liberation
  • or not get a degree at all.
  • And they were very receptive to this.
  • I wondered if they might question a lot,
  • but they didn't.
  • And what I'm particularly involved in doing
  • is developing social services in the gay community-- counseling,
  • crisis lines, discussion groups, and other kinds
  • of social services which I think are very much needed.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Well, now it has sometimes bothered me that when
  • we think of social services, and we do think along
  • the lines of, of course, counseling and crisis
  • counseling because those meet very realistic needs.
  • Have you examined the possibility
  • for creating a more positive kind of social service
  • to the gay community?
  • I mean, currently the places where we can meet
  • are very limited within bars and at various functions sponsored
  • by gay liberation groups.
  • There are not enough gay people out to function as gay people
  • in their everyday lives.
  • So what kind of alternative institutions are--
  • LARRY FINE: Are you thinking in terms of community centers
  • and that kind of thing?
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Not in particular.
  • LARRY FINE: Oh, I wasn't sure what you meant by creative--
  • BRUCE JEWELL: I'm just wondering what you're
  • thinking along those lines.
  • LARRY FINE: Well, I wasn't sure exactly what
  • you meant by creative forms of social services.
  • But there is a need for community centers.
  • And the best thing, of course, would
  • be to have gay people just interact
  • in the present kinds of institutions as people,
  • as gay people, and not have separate institutions
  • for themselves.
  • But, at least initially, it's an important thing
  • to have some separate intuitions to form a sense of community
  • and to have people develop a sense of identity.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Well in doing so, we're
  • really following a very time honored tradition.
  • We're forming what amounts to the gay club, which
  • is equivalent-- or we call it a community center.
  • And it's the same thing as the German
  • Club, or the Italian club, or the Scandinavian club,
  • or whatever.
  • LARRY FINE: In a sense that's true.
  • One of the--
  • BRUCE JEWELL: An attempt to form institutions
  • that for specialized minorities.
  • LARRY FINE: One of the things that troubles me about that
  • is that it may tend to limit people
  • into thinking that one has to have a sexual identity,
  • either being homosexual or heterosexual.
  • And you have to align yourself with one or the other
  • and shut off anything else you might feel.
  • It tends to bother me that the gay movement may be doing this,
  • in a sense, reinforcing the very norms,
  • stereotypes that straight society has already
  • placed on us.
  • That everyone is either homosexual or heterosexual,
  • supposedly.
  • It puts people in a box, you might say.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Well, how do you see people
  • as actually functioning?
  • LARRY FINE: Well, people have a whole range
  • of feelings that are not easy to classify
  • as strictly sexual, emotional, social, et cetera.
  • Feelings may get themselves felt in many, many different ways.
  • Now in a sexually repressive society
  • two things tend to happen.
  • Many things get felt in an exaggeratedly sexual kind
  • of way without maybe having a sensual component to it.
  • Just very kind of a very gut level sexual thing
  • that might otherwise be felt on more emotional levels.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: For example?
  • LARRY FINE: Let me see if I can give an example.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: You mean just seeing somebody, liking
  • that person, and going to bed with them as a kind of--
  • LARRY FINE: That may be, the whole cruising thing.
  • People tend to, I think, change emotional needs
  • into sexual needs.
  • So that they often don't realize the other kinds of needs
  • that they have.
  • They think that just by getting a trick for the night
  • they're going to satisfy a lot of their other needs.
  • Or, they may think that by doing that they'll be happy
  • and they have one trick after another and--
  • BRUCE JEWELL: That is your homosexual life.
  • Yeah.
  • LARRY FINE: Right.
  • Of course, with a repressive society
  • the opposite happens, that feelings which may be very much
  • sexual get felt other ways.
  • And the person doesn't realize that they
  • may be feeling sexual feelings for someone of the same sex,
  • in this case.
  • In a less repressive society there
  • would be a whole range of feelings
  • and there might not be the necessity
  • to classify them as being sexual, emotional, et cetera.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Well, as you mentioned to me
  • in another conversation, the women's groups.
  • Women are finding that they can relate to one another
  • in a manner, for many of them, apparently, that's
  • quite unexpected.
  • LARRY FINE: Right.
  • There are a lot of women who have always defined themselves
  • as heterosexuals and that their gut level sexual feelings have
  • been toward someone of the opposite sex.
  • But they're may be finding that they
  • can have a warmth and a quality relationship that
  • is more meaningful to them with another woman.
  • And which can be expressed sexually,
  • even though their original gut kind of sexual feelings
  • were not toward women.
  • This has happened with some men also,
  • but with men there's a much greater problem.
  • Men are much more constricted in the kinds of behaviors
  • and feelings they're allowed to feel in this society.
  • But there's a whole problem in defining sexual identity.
  • If someone who thought of themselves as heterosexual
  • and still feels gut level sexual feelings for someone
  • of the opposite sex, now finds that they
  • have emotional kinds of feelings, which
  • can be expressed sexually toward someone with the same sex,
  • do they think of themselves as homosexual, as a heterosexual,
  • or what?
  • There's a lot of ambiguity there.
  • And in counseling, this is a special problem.
  • People want to know where they stand
  • and what kind of lifestyle they're expected to live.
  • And it's not so easy to say.
  • And there are not very clear models or roles
  • in society for people who don't fit
  • into one or the other category.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Well, I think it was St. Thomas Aquinas,
  • I'm not quite sure that it was he,
  • but he was one of the very famous medieval saints who
  • pointed out that sexuality had a definite function
  • in friendship.
  • He wasn't just talking about marriage, but about friendship.
  • And so, I suppose, for some people
  • a friendship can become a sexual relationship without putting
  • particular individuals in a category
  • of homosexual or heterosexual for that matter.
  • Certainly, homosexual people sometimes
  • have sexual relationships with members of the opposite sex
  • really based on friendship.
  • LARRY FINE: Sure.
  • I tend to think that probably the most lasting kinds
  • of relationships, sexual relationships,
  • are actually with friends--
  • people that you have already established
  • a friendship with and sexuality is an extension
  • of that friendship.
  • Traditionally, in heterosexual tradition,
  • it's not been especially important
  • whether you liked the person you were marrying.
  • The parents would marry you off to somebody,
  • and it was something you did as a duty and as a tradition.
  • And I think, especially in the Western world,
  • that kind of tradition is waning.
  • I'm not sure whether it'll disappear completely,
  • but more and more people are expecting
  • to love the person they marry, something
  • that used to be unheard of.
  • And maybe we're gradually seeing a whole change
  • in the nature of the purpose of sex, which
  • used to be just as something for reproduction
  • and to pass on the, you know, to pass on the heritage.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Well, officially.
  • LARRY FINE: Officially, at least.
  • Yeah.
  • Well, I've known many men, for instance,
  • who just felt that sex was--
  • well, women actually-- more women who felt that sex
  • was a duty and something to be put up with.
  • Because they didn't really enjoy it.
  • And even men sometimes who really-- when
  • they were able to be open about their feelings,
  • would say that sex was something they really
  • didn't enjoy all that much.
  • It was just the release, the tension release,
  • but they did it more as a duty.
  • But, I think, more and more sex is
  • becoming something which can be for expression of friendship,
  • which can be just for the purpose of mutual pleasure--
  • taking on many different forms.
  • And the kinds of lifestyles which will develop out of that
  • may be very different from the traditional kinds
  • of monogamous relationships.
  • That's, of course, already being felt.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Larry, I know you have
  • some personal feelings about tradition
  • and some personal events in your life, which
  • have changed your attitudes towards traditions and so on.
  • Could you share those with us?
  • LARRY FINE: I think when I first came out,
  • my tendency was to toss tradition to the wind,
  • to toss the idea of family to the wind.
  • And, I guess, I needed to do that at the time
  • in order to feel good about my being gay
  • and not be held down by those feelings of tradition.
  • And, you know, I'm Jewish.
  • And in Jewish culture, tradition and family
  • are extremely important.
  • Well, now that being gay is not an issue with me
  • and I've accepted my gayness as a good and positive thing,
  • I can think more freely about tradition.
  • And some events in my life have made
  • me think about it much more quickly, my mother is not well.
  • And, in fact, I came back to New York
  • very quickly last week because there was a possibility
  • she might be dying.
  • She's a little better now, but my sister and I
  • talked a great deal.
  • And we both have this realization
  • that our parents are in the process of disappearing,
  • and our neighborhood is changing,
  • and all our friends or many of our friends
  • are getting married, getting established jobs, et cetera--
  • careers.
  • And that it's kind of getting time
  • for us to carry on the responsibilities of our family,
  • you might say.
  • And to carry on the tradition.
  • And I do have a feeling of needing
  • to carry on this tradition.
  • Now, for a heterosexual it presents a lot less problem,
  • you get married, and have children,
  • and everyone says that's the right thing to do.
  • For someone who's gay, who knows that they're oriented
  • toward someone of the same sex and that a heterosexual
  • marriage would not fulfill many of their very important needs,
  • this is really a much more serious decision of what kind
  • of lifestyle to live.
  • And it weighs on my mind, in a sense.
  • For instance, there are many gay people
  • who would like to have children and we
  • have to ask the question, how much should a person be
  • limited by their biology?
  • Just like there are many women, in the women's liberation
  • movement, who are deciding that their biology,
  • their being female, should not determine the role that take
  • and prevent them from having a career.
  • Should not determine that they must have a child.
  • I think that people who are homosexually oriented
  • would also have a reason to object
  • to their being limited biologically
  • from having children.
  • On the other hand--
  • BRUCE JEWELL: In other words, they
  • should be able, perhaps, to adopt children.
  • LARRY FINE: Well, perhaps to adopt,
  • but there are some people who would like
  • to have children naturally.
  • And who know that the problem, of course,
  • is not whether or not they'd be able to have sex with a woman.
  • For instance, I'm sure I'd be able to perform
  • with a woman who I was comfortable with and liked,
  • that's not the question.
  • The question is that I would prefer being with a man,
  • much prefer.
  • So there's a conflict in many people's lives.
  • On one hand, they may want to follow a tradition that they
  • see many advantages to.
  • On the other hand, they feel that their nature
  • leads them another way.
  • And what kind of lifestyle to choose is a difficult decision.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Well, I think being cut adrift
  • from traditions is something many, if not most, if not all,
  • homosexuals experience.
  • LARRY FINE: As a matter of fact, I think, in my counseling
  • that I've done and even in my personal life,
  • I found that the times when one feels not very good about being
  • gay, if you analyze those feelings,
  • that you find that the major feeling is not one of being
  • sick, or of being immoral, or irreligious,
  • or whatever, those can easily be refuted.
  • It's a feeling of being cut off from tradition,
  • a feeling of being cut off from a heritage,
  • and that is a serious problem of dealing with that.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: I wouldn't deny what
  • you're saying that it's a serious problem, at least
  • for some people.
  • I would say, however, that, I think,
  • it can be of positive value, though it's not
  • often discussed.
  • I don't know why at this point the homosexual movement,
  • the gay movement is loath to discuss history.
  • Maybe because it's not been explored, but I--
  • LARRY FINE: I think there's a tendency
  • to put down people who discuss great figures in history who
  • were gay because they say that well, this will not
  • solve our political needs at the time and all of that.
  • I used to say that too, but I'm now changing my mind somewhat.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: My own feeling is that if we look at history
  • though, we will encounter a number of men
  • of outstanding abilities at crucial points,
  • crucial historical turning points, many who were--
  • giving a clumsy sentence-- but who were homosexual.
  • And I think to a certain degree--
  • this is not only true, by the way, of the Western world,
  • you can also find the same parallels in the East--
  • and I think that part of this is because the homosexual being
  • cut adrift from tradition, being insofar
  • so much is based upon biological roles,
  • has been able to take a viewpoint,
  • see things slightly different--
  • LARRY FINE: From a wider perspective you would say.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: From a wider perspective.
  • And for that reason, I think, homosexuals,
  • at various times in history, have
  • been able to offer necessary leadership.
  • LARRY FINE: I very much agree.
  • That's something I'm very interested in doing
  • some reading and maybe even some writing
  • about it, at some point, especially in conjunction
  • with my Empire State College studies.
  • I think that-- what I was going to get into,
  • I actually left off at a very negative note.
  • And I'm glad that you continued on a more positive level.
  • I'm interested in finding, what you might
  • call, homosexual traditions.
  • Now, we all know there are heterosexual traditions
  • of marriage and family.
  • But homosexual traditions are not as easy
  • to find in literature, unless you look between the lines.
  • It's not something that's been written about all that much.
  • I think there are homosexual traditions of the type that you
  • mentioned, of having a wider perspective,
  • and maybe feeling more sympathy for minorities,
  • having a greater impetus for social change,
  • even if just unconsciously you are aware of your homosexuality
  • as being that impetus.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Well, I would say that probably certain
  • historical and social conditions that this occurs in.
  • Otherwise, I think there's a good deal of evidence
  • that homosexuals tend to be quite conservative.
  • LARRY FINE: Well, that's true also.
  • Being afraid of having that known
  • and even being conservative to make up for what
  • they see as something immoral.
  • That's been documented recently, too,
  • in studies that have been done.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Yeah.
  • I wouldn't doubt it.
  • LARRY FINE: But there are also, I
  • think, homosexual traditions in the types of lifestyles
  • that gay people have adopted.
  • Coping with being homosexual in a heterosexual society.
  • Lifestyles that have included a lot of different kinds
  • of, what you might call, family arrangements,
  • including living with one other person of the same sex
  • or maybe not living with them, but having
  • an ongoing relationship.
  • There are other types of living arrangements
  • that there may have been.
  • For instance, somebody attaching themselves
  • to a heterosexual couple with children
  • and helping to raise those children.
  • Or a number of men or women say living together
  • in some kind of communal arrangement.
  • I think for many, the celibate life,
  • or the supposedly celibate life, of the priest--
  • there are many gay men I know who
  • have gone into the priesthood because this
  • is one way of coping with their being gay.
  • From what I've heard the priesthood
  • is not all that celibate, but a matter for speculation.
  • But there are many different kinds of lifestyles
  • that people have adopted.
  • Some of them were ones that were maybe very oppressive
  • and maybe are not lifestyles that
  • would have to be adopted now or in the future.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Of course, I can think
  • of some heterosexual bachelors I know who's roommates are males
  • and this seems to be an appropriate living
  • standard-- an appropriate way for them to live,
  • but they are heterosexual.
  • LARRY FINE: Sure.
  • That's not generally considered part
  • of the heterosexual tradition because it's much rarer.
  • But that's true, there are all these other types
  • of traditions that people don't talk about all that much.
  • What I'm concerned most with is that, as a counselor,
  • people are not aware of the different options that
  • are open to them as far as lifestyles.
  • And there aren't very good models,
  • adequate models that are written about and seen openly.
  • Homosexual couples are not generally seen openly
  • around town say holding hands or it's
  • known that they're gay and living together.
  • Or just all the various kinds of things
  • that go into relationship.
  • And things that are very visible in the heterosexual world
  • and not in the homosexual world.
  • So there's a lack of models to pattern
  • or to give oneself ideas about how it's possible to live.
  • And, I think, it's very important
  • to unearth a lot of the traditions,
  • and a lot of the positive kinds of lifestyles,
  • and positive aspects about being gay that can give people
  • models to follow.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Well, I think, without question this
  • is a field not only of great value,
  • but one which is virtually unexplored.
  • It was not permissible to consider
  • positive aspects of the gay life on a public level,
  • until very recently.
  • It would have been considered absolutely outrageous.
  • In fact, even now, to say anything
  • positive about homosexuality is can often
  • lead one to be accused of proselytizing--
  • LARRY FINE: Exactly.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: --or something.
  • And it's completely overlooked that for a lifetime
  • one has heterosexual models, mores, standards, beliefs--
  • LARRY FINE: Right.
  • We've been proselytized by heterosexuals.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: --folklore, and so on.
  • LARRY FINE: For many years.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: And more to the point, it didn't change us.
  • So it's dubious that some positive things
  • said about homosexuality are really
  • going to create homosexuals.
  • LARRY FINE: That's true.
  • A very valid point in a recent court trial--
  • there were some positive things about having homosexual models
  • brought up by a psychologist who testified in that trial.
  • A teacher who was openly gay in the school was fired
  • and it was brought up that the class he was teaching
  • was not entirely heterosexual.
  • There were some homosexual students in there
  • who needed models.
  • And that the presence of this teacher would actually help
  • them better adjust and probably wouldn't
  • have much effect on anybody else,
  • except to increase their tolerance.
  • So it's true that we need to have many more positive things
  • about gay lifestyle brought up.
  • It is a very scary thing for a lot of conservative people
  • to hear the positive aspects of it, like you said.
  • They say you're proselytizing and all that,
  • but we need to go ahead and do it anyway.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: What kind of counseling
  • are you doing, right now?
  • LARRY FINE: Most of the counseling
  • I do is through the Gay Rap Line at the University of Nebraska
  • at Lincoln.
  • It's a student organization funded crisis line,
  • you might say.
  • And we get a lot of calls, I'd say seventy-five to a hundred
  • calls a month.
  • A lot of them are pranks and hang up calls.
  • But a lot of them are very serious.
  • And sometimes after speaking for a while on the phone,
  • we might make an appointment to meet the person in person
  • at some kind of a neutral spot to talk further.
  • Sometimes a face to face meeting can be really a very valuable
  • thing.
  • There are a lot of different types of people that call.
  • Some are--
  • BRUCE JEWELL: What kinds of problems
  • do you most frequently meet?
  • LARRY FINE: I'd say one of the most common ones
  • is married man who's in his fortiess,
  • just to give an example.
  • It might be thirties, forties, fifties,
  • who has recently, or maybe even long ago,
  • but has just recently gotten up the guts
  • to call has discovered or admitted to himself that he's
  • gay, or has a certain amount of homosexual feelings,
  • or bisexual, whatever.
  • And doesn't quite know what to do with it.
  • Whether this means he should divorce his wife
  • and find someone of the same sex, or stay with his wife
  • and have encounters on the side, or whatever.
  • Now to people who--
  • BRUCE JEWELL: I've ran across that.
  • It's a very sad problem.
  • And there isn't a great deal you can offer sometimes.
  • LARRY FINE: Really.
  • And so much depends on the particular circumstances.
  • You know, these people they call up and they want advice,
  • they want us to tell them what they should do.
  • And that's not the role of counselor.
  • If the person is happily married,
  • enjoys their family life, and it may not
  • be a practical thing to change the lifestyle at this point.
  • And I remember one time when I tried
  • to put the person's situation in the perspective of what
  • if the person was heterosexually oriented
  • and was interested in other women.
  • Would he give up his happy home, his good marriage
  • to go running after other women?
  • I think in that particular circumstance
  • that analogy was valid and helped the person a lot.
  • In other circumstances it's not so clear.
  • There person may not have a very happy marriage.
  • The person may very much want to change the lifestyle.
  • There's maybe the problem of the person's job at that point.
  • If a person is in his forties, say,
  • or fifties and has a valid--not a valid--
  • has an important job, they may not
  • want to change their lifestyle, or be openly gay,
  • or be seen with any gay people for fear of losing their job.
  • So there's many things to consider
  • and like you said, in many cases, it's just very sad.
  • And the best the person can do is
  • to develop a few friendships, so that they can at least talk
  • about their feelings and have some people
  • they can talk openly with.
  • And that will often relieve enough of the frustration,
  • and the tension, and the loneliness
  • that they can continue in their heterosexual lifestyle.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: I find it very difficult
  • that when I run into that situation to encourage people
  • in furtive sexual encounters.
  • As a homosexual, I am angered by people
  • who come out at midnight to get their thrills,
  • and do their dirty little thing, and then return home.
  • LARRY FINE: Unfortunately, in some people,
  • there's no alternative for that.
  • That they simply are not willing to risk a career and that's
  • about all that they can have.
  • But I sometimes feel angry about it too.
  • For one thing the fear of coming out publicly,
  • or even semi-publicly, is much greater than the actual danger.
  • There certainly are dangers.
  • But, in most cases, it's not really very likely
  • that the employer is the next day
  • is going to find out that person is gay,
  • and fire them on the spot, especially
  • if the person's been a good worker,
  • and done their job well, and in a good position,
  • the chances of their being fired are not
  • all that great actually.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: What other kinds of problems
  • do you run across, particularly, among younger people?
  • LARRY FINE: We have a lot of calls from high school
  • students.
  • We run the ad for the Gay Rap Line
  • in The Lincoln Gazette, which is a local alternative
  • or underground paper.
  • And several thousand copies are distributed
  • at the high schools in Lincoln.
  • So we got a lot of calls from high school students.
  • And there's an added problem of the legal problems of dealing
  • with people under eighteen.
  • You have to be especially careful.
  • If you meet them to talk with them and the parents find out,
  • they could accuse you of all sorts of things.
  • Whatever the--I've forgotten the legal terminology,
  • but seducing a minor or something of that kind
  • of thing.
  • And we wanted to set up discussion groups for high
  • school students, but again there's this problem that
  • if you don't have the parents' permission-- and, of course,
  • they're not going to go running to the parents for permission--
  • it's a very great problem.
  • The university counseling center,
  • it has a community counseling center--
  • will not see anyone under eighteen,
  • so we can't rely on them.
  • Many groups have gotten around this
  • by having a minister, for instance, have a discussion
  • group in the context of a church.
  • And the parents are not quite as angered by this
  • if they find out.
  • They feel they're in better hands at least.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: It's very difficult
  • to do anything about the isolation
  • that high school students suffer--
  • LARRY FINE: Really.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: --and most of them do.
  • Most of the students I've met feel very isolated.
  • LARRY FINE: High school is an isolating place,
  • even for heterosexuals.
  • I think, in many cases, they're just not
  • places where you can explore different kinds of friendships,
  • lifestyles, et cetera.
  • There's so much peer pressure, it's terrible.
  • And if all there is a gay bar in the city
  • and there isn't even one in Lincoln,
  • but there is one in Omaha.
  • In Nebraska, if you're under nineteen,
  • you can't go into the bar.
  • The gay coffee house in Lincoln, we do let people down
  • to the age of sixteen.
  • And sometimes even under that, if we know them.
  • But there is kind of a legal hassle,
  • we don't want to put the age up to eighteen
  • because we know that high school students have no other place
  • to go.
  • On the other hand, we're in a very sticky position .
  • If we're busted for having underage
  • people and or something happens and parents find out--
  • and you're right there's very little
  • that can be done except to let the high school students find
  • other high school students that they can associate with.
  • A discussion group would be a very good thing
  • where they could meet other high school students.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Larry, do you plan or foresee
  • being able to use your degree in social services,
  • gay social services, and your experience
  • in counseling for some years to come.
  • Do you see it perhaps as a full time occupation?
  • Or--
  • LARRY FINE: I thought of that.
  • I thought that if I planned to go on with my education,
  • I might get a master's in social work.
  • I'm not sure about this because partly the financing
  • of my education.
  • And partly I just don't like formal academic schooling
  • very much.
  • But I've had thoughts of starting, with other people
  • in Lincoln, a gay community center or social service
  • center, as has been started in other places in the country.
  • For instance, Los Angeles has a very big and active one
  • and gets government grants.
  • Now, It may sound like a very romantic idea
  • to decide to get one's master's and start a gay social service
  • center.
  • And I have to keep reminding myself that that will also
  • involve writing proposals, and hassling over money,
  • and all that kinds of stuff.
  • It might be better for me just to start with an existing
  • social service agency, having a specialized field
  • of gay counseling.
  • And after that try to branch out after I have more experience.
  • I'm not really sure.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Well, you're certainly
  • in a field that's wide open for innovation.
  • And I wish you luck.
  • LARRY FINE: Thank you very much, Bruce.