Audio Interview, Mark Siewic, May 29, 2013

EVELYN BAILEY: --where I usually begin.

Today is May 29, and I'm sitting with Mark Siwiec,

at his Nothnagel office in Brighton.

And Mark was involved with the Gay Alliance

and has been involved with LGBT issues most of his life.

But I want to ask you, Mark, were you born in Rochester?

MARK SIWIEC: No.

I was born in Buffalo in 1965.

EVELYN BAILEY: And when did you come to Rochester?

MARK SIWIEC: '83, when I started at the U of R. So actually--

and I realize we're talking about Rochester--

but it's probably important to say

that one of the reasons I came to Rochester

and ended up staying here and loving it

was because in Buffalo, my dad was a cop,

and I grew up with a bunch of cops,

and it was a very blue collar, very Catholic town.

And I remember listening to AM radio

late at night when I was a little kid.

And the mayor, Jimmy Griffin, used

to talk about pansies and fags and queers.

And that was the public rhetoric.

And I was shocked when I came here

in '83 to very quickly and very soon

realize that that kind of language

wasn't accepted here in Rochester.

That that kind of language was forbidden.

That people, even if they didn't necessarily approve of gay

and lesbian and their quote, unquote "lifestyle,"

they didn't--

they would never think about using that kind of language

publicly.

EVELYN BAILEY: And when you came to the U of R,

you got involved, though, with the LGBT group on campus.

Correct?

MARK SIWIEC: Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: Do you remember what it was called?

MARK SIWIEC: No.

I don't. (laughs)--

I'm forty-eight years old now.

I have no idea what that one was called.

So no.

But I'll think about that, yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: The Pride Alliance?

MARK SIWIEC: No.

I'll think--

EVELYN BAILEY: Gay Academic Union?

MARK SIWIEC: No, no.

I'll think about it.

EVELYN BAILEY: So when you got involved with that group,

on campus, what was the response to that group?

Was-- I mean, there was obviously some homophobia.

But overall?

MARK SIWIEC: There wasn't a lot of response.

And the reason there wasn't a lot of response

was because even though we were meeting,

and we were given a room in the psych building, of all places.

I mean, but we were given a room in the psych building.

And it was sort of in a lower level,

sort of far away from traffic.

Pedestrian traffic.

So that if somebody wanted to attend a meeting,

they could do so without fear of being seen walking into a room.

And so we basically didn't have much

of a public presence on campus.

We were basically an organization

that was meeting weekly to talk about strategies of coming out.

To talk about gay and lesbian oppression.

That kind of thing.

You know, there was a lot of--

EVELYN BAILEY: Now, that was 1983.

MARK SIWIEC: I graduated in '83.

So this is '85.

EVELYN BAILEY: '85.

MARK SIWIEC: And so there was--

it was just at that point in time when I--

and it's so funny.

Because I think back.

This was 1985, and I think back, like, when I was at the U of R

in '85, when I started the U of R in '83,

I used to think about gay and lesbian history

as being ancient history.

When in reality, it was only like ten, fifteen years old.

But in my mind, it was ancient history.

EVELYN BAILEY: So even in '85, there

was this concern of an aura of fear of coming out?

MARK SIWIEC: Yeah.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

EVELYN BAILEY: Among students?

MARK SIWIEC: Among students.

I mean, we only had probably twenty-five or so members.

I mean, high school today have twenty-five members.

But back then-- in their gay student unions.

But we were only able-- and the reality is,

and I don't mean to demean anybody,

but the reality is that those who were attending,

they were kind of misfits.

They were sort of-- it was the land of misfit toys.

So there weren't any quote, unquote, "popular" kids

from campus who were part of our group.

And I remember, among the things that we would do, once a year,

we would be invited to a few psych classes, Psych 101,

to talk about the fact that we're normal.

The fact that this isn't a psychological disease.

This isn't an illness.

And a lot of what we were trying to do

was break stereotypes at that point in time.

There was very, very little conversation about politics.

There was very little conversation

about a political agenda of any sort.

It was really, at that point in time, still about organizing.

And probably the same way the Gay Alliance was organizing

in the ten years before that.

EVELYN BAILEY: So how did you find, eventually, because you

did find, the Gay Alliance?

I mean, was there a connection between the U of R and the Gay

Alliance, or was it primarily by well,

computers weren't even like--

MARK SIWIEC: For those who know me, I'm rather headstrong.

So--

EVELYN BAILEY: Well, energetic.

MARK SIWIEC: (laughs) And so I took the energy

that I had in regard to gay and lesbian

civil rights and my experience on the U of R campus,

and I became involved the Gay Alliance, actually,

through Tim Maines.

And I remember after I graduated--

EVELYN BAILEY: What was your connection with Tim?

MARK SIWIEC: After I graduated from the U of R,

I remember reading in the Empty Closet

that Tim was running for re-election to city council.

And I remember going to Broadway and knocking on a door,

and I remember, literally, my hand--

I was shaking.

My hand was shaking as I knocked on the door,

rang the doorbell, whatever it was.

And it was Don Belac's house.

And I said, my name is Mark Siwiec,

and I'd like to volunteer if I could.

And I was escorted in, and I was put

to work stuffing envelopes and working on a mailing.

And so it was as a result of that

that I had gotten to know Sue Cowell,

and as a result of that, all the pieces then

start to fall into place.

So.

EVELYN BAILEY: Now, had you personally experienced

any rejections in terms of being gay, whether you were

on campus or in Buffalo or--

I mean, you shared with me that you heard the rhetoric that

was so negative and so hurtful.

MARK SIWIEC: Listen, my dad was a cop.

And there were five of us stuck in a 900-square foot ranch.

And the dining table conversation

had to do with niggers and fags and Jews.

There was no opportunity whatsoever for me to come out.

So I didn't suffer any oppression,

only because I was completely and absolutely closeted.

Which in and of itself is obviously a form of oppression,

but not any overt.

And at the U of R, no.

Actually, at the U of R, it was really interesting,

and I still look back.

For some god forsaken reason, I had joined

a fraternity, delta sigma phi.

And I did that, I think, my freshman year at the U of R.

You know, as you're trying to figure out

who your friends are, and what your identity's going to be.

All of that.

My sophomore year is when I start to come out publicly.

Is when I start to take on responsibility for cheering

the Gay Student Union, or whatever

it was called at the time.

And I moved off campus, and I moved on to East Avenue,

where I took care of an elderly woman.

And the members of the fraternity

couldn't understand why it was that I had moved out

of the frat house and why it is that I had moved off campus.

Then it became clear and obvious to them, oh, he's gay,

and he feels as though--

Those guys were fantastic.

They did an amazing and remarkable job

of always saying, Mark, we haven't seen you in a while.

We'd love to have you come to this event.

Hey, why don't you come and hang out on Saturday afternoon,

play foosball?

So it was the beginning of a form of enlightenment

on the part of some of the students on campus.

Actually, what is interesting is I

remember so distinctly that experience,

and I could contrast that with a woman who

I was sitting in the student union,

and there was conversation about gay men and lesbians.

And this woman said, if I knew that my son was gay,

I would take him and throw him out the window and kill him.

And I remember so distinctly her saying that and contrasting

that with my experience with the fraternity.

Very, very different.

So.

EVELYN BAILEY: Wow.

When you became involved with Tim's campaign,

do you recall whether it was his first campaign, or--

MARK SIWIEC: It was his second.

His re-election.

EVELYN BAILEY: Reelection.

MARK SIWIEC: Second, yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: And as a part of that,

did you ever experience being harassed, being--

MARK SIWIEC: No.

No.

No.

EVELYN BAILEY: So and in your professional life?

MARK SIWIEC: No.

Things started very, very, very quickly changing.

EVELYN BAILEY: OK.

MARK SIWIEC: Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: Once you got involved politically,

I think you were connected to Mel Donato--

ACT UP.

You didn't know Mel Donato?

MARK SIWIEC: So yeah.

It wasn't ACT UP.

It was Queer Nation which was--

EVELYN BAILEY: Queer Nation.

MARK SIWIEC: Yeah.

So I was involved with Tim's campaign in that first year,

and they had me stuff envelopes on that first day.

And then they liked the way that I stuffed envelopes,

so then I became in charge of all their mailings.

And then as a result of that, I became

involved in the 23rd LD, the 23rd legislative district

of the Democratic Party, which Sue Cowell was running.

And Sue Cowell was attached to and involved

in things that were political, both in terms

of democratic politics, but also in terms of gay politics.

And that's how I became involved in the Gay Alliance

and then actually became vice president of the Gay Alliance

under Claire Parker.

It was a year or two after that that--

and this is the time when Out magazine was being published,

and there was that great bookstore on University Avenue

with Laurie and--

EVELYN BAILEY: Laurie [Matoaca and Marge.

Wild Seeds.

MARK SIWIEC: Wild Seeds.

Yeah.

And that was great, because that was a place

that I could go to get OUT magazine and Michealangelo

Signorile.

Michealangelo Signorile was writing these articles week

after week after week.

And you would just run to the store

to see who it was that Michealangelo Signorile was

going to out that week.

And there were all these public figures

who he was outing and calling them

on the carpet for their hypocrisy.

And so while that was going on, then you

had to ACT UP which was taking place in larger cities

throughout.

And then a splinter group of ACT UP was Queer Nation.

And the focus of Queer Nation wasn't

so much about HIV and AIDS politics,

but it was really more about radicalizing gay and lesbian

and becoming more and more public.

And I remember we had done a public kiss--

a kiss-in or something.

I remember what happened.

I remember that we had a bunch of radio and television

and that kind of thing.

So yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: And your first real activity with the Alliance

was the auction at Geva, right?

MARK SIWIEC: Oh, that auction.

Yes.

EVELYN BAILEY: Not the other one at the Bachelor Forum

(laughs)--

We all remember that one.

MARK SIWIEC: Yeah, OK.

Good.

Yeah, that's what I thought you were talking about.

No.

Yeah.

So--

EVELYN BAILEY: You took care of the food

and that sort of thing.

But I think that was the first auction that we ever did.

MARK SIWIEC: So the first auction.

So I rem--

EVELYN BAILEY: Did from the heart.

MARK SIWIEC: Yes.

I remember-- yeah.

Thanks for bringing that up.

I had forgotten all about it.

I remember being very, very proud.

I was twenty-three years old or twenty-five years old

or something, and I remember that we

needed to raise money for the building fund, I think it was.

Yeah.

And I remember being very proud of the fact that we put

together a really great event.

And it was at Geva Theater, and it was very public,

and it was very sophisticated in a way that I just

don't recollect events for the gay and lesbian community up

until then hadn't been this sort of-- people were in suits

and ties, and it was very--

and we raised, we netted $15,000.

And you remember the sum of money.

And I remember just being so incredibly proud.

And it took all of our effort and all of our energy.

It took a small army of people four to six

months to raise the kind of money.

But I remember, yeah.

That was, in my mind, a real sea change for the community.

And that we could come together in something other

than our jeans and t-shirts, and we

could start to interact with the larger

community in a very, very public way and a very

professional way.

EVELYN BAILEY: And that money went into the building fund.

We raised $120,000 in eighteen months

and bought the building on Atlantic Avenue.

MARK SIWIEC: Yeah, yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: By the time we moved to Atlantic Avenue,

though, I think you were off the board.

MARK SIWIEC: I had stepped off the board

because I had become--

for all sorts of reasons.

One--

EVELYN BAILEY: You were a landlord.

MARK SIWIEC: I was starting in business.

I was becoming more involved in business.

That was starting to take more of my time.

And then I started to become more and more involved

in democratic politics.

So the free time that I had--

this is really an interesting conversation.

Because that, I think, was sort of the break from my engagement

solely in gay and lesbian politics

and becoming more and more of a gay liaison

to sort of a larger democratic community.

EVELYN BAILEY: Were you ever afraid to say who you were?

MARK SIWIEC: No.

EVELYN BAILEY: Were you proud--

MARK SIWIEC: Absolutely.

EVELYN BAILEY: --to be who you were?

MARK SIWIEC: Absolutely.

EVELYN BAILEY: From even in Buffalo?

MARK SIWIEC: No, no.

I thought the question was when I became involved

in democratic politics.

No.

You know, there's that struggle that we all go through.

But I remember-- again, I'm resolute.

I'm headstrong.

And I remember the process of coming out.

And I remember just turning to my family.

Again, my dad was a cop.

And turning to my family and just saying,

listen, this is who I am.

And if you want, I can send you a card for your birthday,

and I can give you a gift on Christmas,

and that will be the sole extent of our relationship.

Or if you want to continue to have me as your son,

you're going to come to terms with this.

And that was very difficult for my parents, but--

my father in particular-- but they came around.

EVELYN BAILEY: I know I met your mother.

MARK SIWIEC: Yes.

EVELYN BAILEY: On Barton Street.

MARK SIWIEC: Yes.

Yes.

Yeah, exactly.

EVELYN BAILEY: In your apartment.

And she seemed fine with that whole--

MARK SIWIEC: I mean, my mother has just

been an incredible-- my mom was born in Buffalo.

Very blue collar, lower middle class family.

High school education.

No college education.

My father the same.

And for my mother to evolve in the way that she has

and for her to become the advocate, not only for me,

but also for the community in a larger sense,

it's really commendable.

It's really remarkable.

EVELYN BAILEY: In the past thirty years,

thirty-five years, what are you most proud of in terms

of your contribution?

MARK SIWIEC: I think--

it's going to be a long-winded answer.

But the short answer is I think that I

am very proud of the fact that Duffy and I have acted

as a liaison from the community to, in many ways,

a larger community.

The straight community, the heterosexual community,

the political community, on the democratic side of the aisle

and on the republican side of the aisle.

Here in our county, but throughout the state.

And whether it was we were normalizing,

so to say, or so to speak, whether it

was because we were normalizing our relationship

and gay and lesbian involvement with people like Chuck Schumer

or with Eliot Spitzer, having asked

Bob Duffy to run for office.

Having him become a lieutenant governor.

Having him preside over marriage.

Whether it's because of our relationships with local bank

presidents, presidents of colleges and universities

locally.

That's, I think, what we're most proud of.

What I'm certainly most proud of.

EVELYN BAILEY: And how throughout--

when did you and Duffy meet?

MARK SIWIEC: We've been together for seventeen years.

So that was in 1996.

EVELYN BAILEY: '96.

And did you meet politically, or did you--

MARK SIWIEC: No, no, no, no.

We met through a personal ad.

EVELYN BAILEY: OK.

MARK SIWIEC: Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: And you and he have begun many organizations,

political organizations, like ESPA,

I think Duffy has probably had more of a role in that

than you, although the two of you together, I think,

began the Rochester--

MARK SIWIEC: No.

That's actually not--

EVELYN BAILEY: Sue Cowell.

MARK SIWIEC: I remember being asked

to the first meeting of the Empire State Pride Agenda

twenty years ago at a diner on South Avenue.

And Dick Dadey was involved at the time.

And so I remember knowing of the organization,

but not really being involved.

I was asked to sit on the board.

I sat on the board for literally six weeks,

and then my business was taking off, and I had to step aside.

Duffy and I meet three years after the organization

is founded.

And I remember Duffy having a conversation with me one day.

And the conversation that Duffy has is--

this is four months into our relationship.

And he says, I don't know if I can spend the rest of my life

with somebody who is as busy as you are.

And I remember just trying to figure out, so

what do I give up?

Do I give up this relationship with this man

that I'm falling in love with, or do I

give up some of my business or some

of my political activities?

And my-- the answer that I came up with was to get him involved

and to get him busier.

And we got him on the board of the Empire State Pride Agenda,

and then he took and he ran with that.

And he was the state co-chair for six years.

He sat on the board for a few years

before becoming state co-chair.

But it has been a really, really great relationship

in that in particular, in when it is that Duffy and I would

attend events in New York City for Alan Hevesi, the state

comptroller, Eric Schneiderman, or Chuck Schumer, or Eliot

Spitzer.

I was always great about kicking in the door

and getting us in the room as a result of networking.

As a result of writing checks, whatever.

But anybody who knows us, Duffy then steps in behind me,

and he has all the kindness and all the warmth and all

the finesse to really then continue the relationships.

So it's been a great collaborative effort.

EVELYN BAILEY: Why are you so committed to the Empire State

Pride Agenda?

Or why have you been so committed?

MARK SIWIEC: The end game for me, and I think for Duffy,

was securing marriage equality.

And--

EVELYN BAILEY: Did you think that was going

to happen twenty years ago?

MARK SIWIEC: No.

No.

But I knew that whatever it was that was going to play out,

I knew that whatever it was that was going to happen,

needed to happen in a larger arena.

So one of my first political activities, I remember,

after I involved myself in Tim Mains's campaign,

I remember being asked to host a fundraiser for Rachel--

EVELYN BAILEY: Heading.

MARK SIWIEC: Rachel Heading, exactly.

Who was on the school board.

And I remember being able to get--

and nobody at the time in our community

was interested in politics.

Nobody had any sense as to how it

is that we could become involved politically

and what it was that we were going

to derive as a result of our political involvement.

But I remember hosting a fundraiser in my backyard.

I remember grilling hot dogs and hamburgers,

and I remember raising $350 for Rachel.

And why was that significant, or why was that important?

Because it then allowed us to approach Rachel and Cathy Spoto

and a few other members of the school board.

And we became the first school district in the country

not to allow the US military to recruit in our school district.

And I remember thinking, my god.

If we could do that with $350 and have

an impact that was so national in scope, then

we should continue.

I should continue on in a similar manner.

And the Empire State Pride Agenda, in particular,

seemed to be a larger stage and a larger arena in which I could

involve myself and the efforts and the talents

that I thought that I could bring to the table.

EVELYN BAILEY: In those years of your political involvement,

talk to me a little bit about Sue Cowell.

What do you see as her greatest contribution to this community?

MARK SIWIEC: Sue Cowell, for me, was always the icon.

Sue Cowell was always the face of the community.

Sue Cowell was always the one who

was most visible and on the forefront of all

of these things.

So back in the late '70s and early '80s,

her involvement in democratic politics,

her involvement with Louise Slaughter's campaign.

Her having run Tim Mains's first campaign.

It was all very-- she was very, very, very visible.

And she was the one person that I could

turn to figure out how to--

I had energy, and I had interest,

but I didn't know how to engage myself in the process

or involve myself in the process.

So I think that her greatest accomplishment was the fact

that she was just so visible and was enjoying so much success.

But then soon I became best friends, for just years.

And she's still a dear friend.

But during that period of time, it was very intense.

There wasn't a day that went by that Sue and I didn't

speak to each other two or three times a day to figure out--

she ran Susan John's campaign.

And she got me involved in Susan John.

And she just-- if Sue was running something,

then the phone would ring, and then

I would be standing right next to her, by her side.

I remember going to Albany, and I

remember her challenging elected officials in Albany in a way

that-- and I remember, it was there

were three or four candidates running for attorney general

on the Democratic side of the aisle.

And I remember, there was a question

that was posed by a member of the audience

about gay and lesbian civil rights.

And it was a gay lesbian group, but nevertheless, somebody

had posed the question, and all three candidates just

obfuscated.

They didn't give the--

they didn't give an answer, they just

tap danced around an answer.

And I remember Sue just--

(bangs table) she slammed her-- she was like, that's it.

Enough.

We as a community are no longer going

to take this kind of answer.

This is bullshit.

And she says this publicly.

And the room just went dead silent.

And everybody just turned and looked.

And we turned back, and you could just

sense that there was a sea change that

had occurred in our community.

That these three men probably, and one woman would no longer--

were no longer allowed the opportunity to spoon

feed us the garbage that they were up until that point

in time.

So she was a pioneer.

She's an icon.

She's my mentor, and we all owe her

an enormous, enormous degree of gratitude.

EVELYN BAILEY: And along those lines,

who would you say in Rochester was

the most visible political person who

moved the agenda of the gay community?

MARK SIWIEC: There were three names.

There are three names that come to mind.

Obviously, the most publicly visible, was Tim Mains.

He was the first openly gay elected official

in the city of Rochester, in Monroe County.

So a lot of credit, a great deal of credit,

has to be given to Tim.

But behind the scenes, there was Sue.

And I wasn't there at the time.

But I would venture to guess that it

would have been much more difficult Sue's involvement.

And Sue's involvement was much larger,

in that she was involved in a lot of different campaigns.

But the other person, and you probably

haven't heard anybody mention, but Fran Weisberg,

who is the chair of the local Democratic Party.

And Fran always saw to it that members of the gay and lesbian

community had a seat at the table in whatever it

was that was going on at sixty-five West Broad, which

was the address of Democratic Headquarters.

And she didn't need to engage our community.

She didn't need to involve our community.

But she always made sure that the door was open.

She always made sure that we had a seat at the table.

And whether it was Tim's first campaign

or his second campaign, or whether it's

Susan John's first run for state assembly,

it didn't matter what the campaign

was, Fran empowered us.

And we as a community owe her a great deal of gratitude.

EVELYN BAILEY: I haven't heard that name, as a matter of fact.

You are the first person who's really mentioned it

as someone that the community--

worked behind the scenes that the community really

wasn't aware of.

MARK SIWIEC: Not to denigrate.

But have you spoken to anybody else who

was involved in democratic politics other than Sue?

EVELYN BAILEY: Tim.

Bill Pritchard.

MARK SIWIEC: Bill wasn't involved at that point in time.

EVELYN BAILEY: Tim Tompkins.

MARK SIWIEC: Tim Tompkins wasn't involved at that point in time.

Tim only got involved--

EVELYN BAILEY: And we haven't interviewed,

of course, Susan John.

She's really gone under the radar.

But Sue did not mention Fran Weisberg, and we--

MARK SIWIEC: Sue and Tim would be the two.

Because there were--

EVELYN BAILEY: And Tim, we interviewed Tim for three hours

on tape.

And did not-- that name was not mentioned.

MARK SIWIEC: She was amazing.

She was amazing.

Oh, she--

EVELYN BAILEY: And that was the other question

I was going to ask you.

Who do we need to talk to.

Fran Weisberg I will definitely get in touch with.

Besides Fran Weisberg, who in this community

has stepped up to the plate?

Who has been, maybe, the unsung hero or behind the scenes,

doing all the stuff that needs to be done that makes

what we do successful?

MARK SIWIEC: At least in terms of my involvement,

going back to the early '80s, it was definitely--

and again, my focus was all political.

So it would definitely be Sue Cowell.

It would definitely be Fran Weisberg.

It would definitely be Tim Mains.

Yeah.

So.

And then what starts to happen after that is then

my focus became less--

turn it off for just a second.

EVELYN BAILEY: Your first introductions and activity

in political arena.

You talked a little bit about Sue Cowell and working

on Tim Mains's first campaign.

But beyond that, you have moved in other directions,

on other levels.

And I've got a call in to Fran Weisberg,

and she has yet to get back to me.

But I'm not sure she's like Duffy, but-- (laughs)

MARK SIWIEC: Let me tell you-- (recording switched off)

EVELYN BAILEY: And the other thing, Mark,

I would love to have your comments

on the progression from where you entered

the community to where it is now,

in terms of some of the political things that

have happened.

Some of the social things that have happened.

Some of your reflection on why marriage equality really

worked in this state.

I mean, yes.

It was the lieutenant governor, and yes, it

was the four Republicans who came over to our side.

But why New York?

Why here?

Where were the activism--

MARK SIWIEC: Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: You know?

MARK SIWIEC: Well, everybody points to New York City,

but I think the parallels between New York

and Rochester are astounding.

Because if you think about Stonewall taking

place in the late '60s, and there was this movement that

came about as a result of that.

But if you look at the history of LGBT Rochester,

similar things were going on in Rochester.

No, there weren't riots, necessarily.

But there was organization that was taking place

in Rochester in the late '60s.

In the early '70s.

You know about that far more and far better than I do.

But it's as a result of that early organizing

and the Gay Alliance being formed in the early '70s.

And the Empty Closet being formed in the early '70s.

And thank god for the Empty Closet, because that

was a way of very, very quietly and very

surreptitiously being able to grab a newspaper

and having some kind of ability to communicate and connect

with the gay and lesbian community

by going to Parkleigh, for instance, back

in the late '70s, early '80s.

And you could grab that publication

and walk out without fear of being chastised.

Without fear of reprisal.

Without fear of ridicule.

So that kind of organizing, I think, was very, very exciting.

And so if you've got that going on here in Rochester,

and it starts to grow and it starts developing,

if you've got it going on in New York City,

and if the communities in both New York

and in Rochester, and then to a lesser degree, Syracuse

and Buffalo, as we became more and more sophisticated--

Sue Cowell always talks about raising money

for AIDS Rochester.

And she began to realize that you could schlep up and down

stairs in a gay bar in Rochester with cases

of beer at the beginning of the night

and at the end of the night, and you could hold a fundraiser

and put a lot of effort into it and raise,

if you were fortunate, $1,200.

Or you could start to raise larger sums of money

by getting people into a room by wearing business attire

and asking for bigger checks and raise $5,000.

And it was a result of that kind of thing

that allowed our community to start to become a force

to be reckoned with in the eyes of the politicians

throughout the state of New York.

So I'll never forget--

and part of this, speaking-- go ahead.

EVELYN BAILEY: I get it.

I get it.

Where are the relationships, though?

MARK SIWIEC: So here's relationships.

So as a result of some of my earlier activities,

I found myself picking up a guy whose name

was Congressman Chuck Schumer, out of New York City.

This is going back when he decided

that he was going to run for the United States Senate.

So I pick I pick Congressman Schumer up in my car,

and he flies in on a commercial plane, arrives at the airport.

I greet him.

We walk to my car.

We drive off.

He comes back a few weeks later, and this is, by the way,

in concert with Duffy, who is with me.

And then and then artist Mangione,

who's now married to Steve Lindley, who's

in the appellate division.

Chuck would come in again, and he

would have a second person with him, an aide.

And then he would have a third person with him.

And then as the months were progressing, all of a sudden,

they weren't walking to the car, but they started--

they would jog to the car.

And I wasn't going inside to meet them.

I had the car running outside.

And then by the end of that campaign, literally

you would have six people running--

touching down in a private jet and then running

from the private jet, piling into my car,

one on top of another, and we would race off

to four events, one after another after another.

And as a result of that kind of relationship,

I started doing all the fundraising for Chuck locally.

And I'll never forget.

We did an event--

I didn't have any money at the time.

I didn't have an appropriate residence

in which to hold a fundraiser in which the political donors

in Rochester could gather.

But as a result of that kind of relationship,

we did an event for Chuck in which we raised, I think,

$100,000.

And this was going back sixteen, seventeen years.

It's a result of those kinds of relationships

that we, as members of the gay and lesbian community,

were developing that allowed for us to then approach

these men and women, these elected officials,

and say we need marriage equality

in the state of New York.

EVELYN BAILEY: Who, besides yourself and Duffy,

were among the group of people who moved that agenda?

Who moved the money?

Who moved-- I mean, I'm not asking for fundraising names.

MARK SIWIEC: Here in Rochester?

EVELYN BAILEY: Here in Rochester.

MARK SIWIEC: From the gay and lesbian community?

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

MARK SIWIEC: Early on, it was Duffy and I. Early on it was.

Yeah.

And thankfully-- I don't say that out of hubris.

But thankfully then, you get other members

of the community who begin to--

because Tim was elected to city council,

but Tim was very much doing his own thing.

And he didn't have very much of a relationship

with any of the electeds out of New York City.

But as a result of my relationship with the Empire

State Pride Agenda and his relationship, Duffy's

relationship, we knew these men and women

in New York City who were running for statewide office.

But actually, so it was basically Duffy

and myself, because of our relationship with these men

and women in New York.

So when they were doing their dog and pony

show throughout the state--

so there's a guy named Eliot Spitzer who

decides that he wants to run for attorney general

of the state of New York.

So I'm asked to attend a dinner.

Why?

Because nobody else wants to go in and have

dinner with this guy named Eliot Spitzer.

So I show up, and it was a miserable, terrible dinner.

It was boring.

There was nothing going on.

There were seven of us sitting at the table.

And as everybody was getting ready to leave,

I said, well, but Mr. Spitzer, I don't

know whether I should actually vote for you or not

for attorney general.

There are three issues that are very important to me

as a potential voter.

One issue is the death penalty.

Another issue is a woman's right to choose.

And the third issue is gay and lesbian civil rights.

And all of a sudden, the seven people at the table

decided to sit back down, and for another hour and a half,

we sat there.

And Eliot starts by saying, OK, Mark.

You and I are going to agree on two of these,

but not on the third issue.

And I'll tell you that I'm supportive of

gay and lesbian civil rights.

And it was as a result of that dinner

that I then started raising all the money for Eliot locally

and became his local guy, if you will.

EVELYN BAILEY: How did you become connected

with ESPA I mean, you and Duffy started ESPA up here, but it--

MARK SIWIEC: No, no.

No, Sue was state chair.

And (laughs) actually, the way that--

I was on the board of the Empire State Pride Agenda

for about two months before I realized that my business was

taking off, and I had to step down and resign from the board.

I meet Duffy, and probably four or six months

into our relationship, Duffy says to me, Mark,

this is going really well, but I'm not quite sure

if I can spend the rest of my life

with somebody who's as busy as you are.

And I was devastated.

I was completely devastated by this.

And I had determined to figure out whether or not

I was going to remain faithful to Duffy

or remain faithful to myself and my intended goals

as a businessman.

And my solution was to turn to Sue Cowell and say,

we need to get Duffy on the board of the Empire State Pride

Agenda.

And Sue, thankfully, agreed to get him on the board.

And as a result of that, he started

to fly in and out of New York and then ultimately took over

from Sue and became state chair and was

state co-chair for six years.

EVELYN BAILEY: How did ESPA begin?

Do you know?