Audio Interview, Marlene Gordon, September 24, 2012
- EVELYN BAILEY: The date is September 24,
- and I'm sitting here in the (unintelligible)
- room with Marlene Gordon, who was
- an original member of the Gay Liberation Front
- at the University of Rochester.
- And what I really want to ask Marlene
- is not only what she remembers, but a little bit
- about her own history so we can get
- a sense of how the Gay Liberation Front fits
- into your own life, as it were.
- Were you born in Rochester?
- MARLENE GORDON: No, I grew up just outside
- of Boston, Massachusetts.
- And I was lured up here by a part scholarship
- to the University of Rochester, undergraduate.
- EVELYN BAILEY: In what program?
- MARLENE GORDON: Well, I started in psychology,
- but by the second year, I switched to English.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And what year was that?
- MARLENE GORDON: Well, I started at the U of R in 1968.
- And I believe it was 1970, I saw a notice in the Campus Times
- about this gay group.
- And I think it was that year.
- And I started going to meetings.
- I wasn't exactly sure why I was going.
- I had a boyfriend at the time.
- And so I walked into Todd Union to a meeting,
- and people were-- am I talking loud enough?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- MARLENE GORDON: Oh.
- People were sitting around in little groups
- with some discussion topic.
- And I was sitting with a bunch of guys who said to me,
- are you gay?
- And I said, I don't know.
- And I was surprised I even said that,
- because it was very subconscious or pretty subconscious
- at the time.
- So anyway, so they said, have you ever been to a gay bar?
- And I said, no.
- They said, you want to go?
- I said, OK.
- So I got in this truck with these guys I didn't even know,
- and we went downtown to I think Dick's
- 43, which is no longer there.
- And anyway-- oh.
- So I walked into this bar to these guys doing a chorus line
- to "I'd Rather Be Blue," and I thought that was a lot of fun.
- And I started drinking gin and tonics immediately, nervously.
- And then this rather large woman asked me to dance slow.
- And I remembered dancing and thinking,
- why aren't I more uncomfortable?
- Why aren't I more uncomfortable?
- And so we had a good time.
- And then there was somebody--
- there were two women who were students at RIT.
- I think NTID.
- And they and a couple of guys said,
- oh, let's go over to our place.
- So we went to this guy's apartment.
- We were hanging.
- Anyway, I don't remember too much more about the evening,
- but--
- (laughter)
- --it was fun.
- So I started going to these GLF meetings.
- And meantime, I was telling--
- I shouldn't use names.
- Anyway, I was telling my boyfriend
- about going to these meetings, and I was curious about it.
- And he was very supportive the whole time.
- And actually, we ended up being friends for a very long time.
- So then-- but I remembered that dance, that first dance.
- And I remember these beautiful decorations,
- silver decorations.
- And I remember-- afterwards, I remembered
- how nice it was that the men and women were
- working together and having fun together,
- and there wasn't a big split between the men and women.
- And I was very nervous to go into that dance,
- because it was right on campus in the--
- I think it was the dining hall where the bookstore is now,
- downstairs.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Was there a name for that?
- MARLENE GORDON: For the dance?
- I don't--
- EVELYN BAILEY: No, for the dining hall.
- MARLENE GORDON: Oh.
- It was Frederick Douglass Building.
- And I think it was that dance--
- there's a poster for it that's still around in the--
- in the office here.
- And it was so much fun.
- It was really, really nice.
- And I eventually met someone in that group
- and got involved with her.
- And you know, I was living in the dorms,
- and I remember being very careful.
- Of course, the people next door who
- had given me a hard time, turned out they were--
- it was my resident advisor and another student,
- and it turns out they were in a relationship.
- And they were giving me a hard time about it.
- But anyway, so that was the year I came out.
- And so that's what I remember about the beginning of GLF.
- And you know, Patti Evans was there.
- I don't know if I mentioned any names or not.
- Anyway, Patti Evans became friends with me.
- We were-- there were three of us, I think,
- undergraduate students.
- Larry Fine was the other one--
- at first.
- And a lot of the people in GLF were actually from the city,
- but it was being housed at the U of R.
- I believe it was much more--
- many more people who were not actually from the campus.
- Students from other campuses and people from Rochester.
- And I remember Karen.
- Of course, Karen Hagberg and RJ were there from Eastman School.
- And But I remember that period of the dances being--
- because it was different later--
- the men and the women working together
- and having a really good time together,
- and those are happy memories for me about that.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- Now let me go back a bit.
- When you say Todd Union, do you remember where in Todd Union?
- Because you walk into Todd Union and they are seating areas.
- MARLENE GORDON: You know, I don't know how it is now.
- Because at that time, there was no Wilson center.
- And so that was the student union.
- That's where our mailboxes were.
- I think there was-- you know, I haven't been there
- in such a long time, even though I lived in Rochester most
- of the time since.
- I think it was upstairs that there was a rather large room
- where we met.
- Yeah, I seem to remember that was the room where
- we gave blood one time--
- (laughs)
- --for a fellow student whose sibling needed it.
- Yeah, it was a big room upstairs.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And do you remember
- when those meetings were?
- What day of the week?
- MARLENE GORDON: Oh, no.
- EVELYN BAILEY: What time?
- MARLENE GORDON: No.
- I'm sure the Campus Times would have that.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah, I think they were on Sunday.
- MARLENE GORDON: Yeah, I really--
- I really don't remember.
- But I know Dick's 43 was open that night.
- (laughter)
- Afternoon, actually, I think.
- No, I don't remember if it was evening or--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Did you meet Martha?
- MARLENE GORDON: Martha Brown?
- EVELYN BAILEY: At Dick's 43?
- MARLENE GORDON: Martha?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Who owned Dick's 43?
- MARLENE GORDON: Oh, no.
- You know, and I-- after that, the only bar I really remember
- is the Riverview, I remember fondly.
- We used to--
- I guess it was after I graduated,
- I remember when I first started teaching
- after being so closeted all week long,
- loving to go out on Friday nights and see all my friends.
- And it was-- although-- oh, I had two.
- I have one funny memory of back when I was still on campus.
- I thought the campus was forty-five minutes
- from downtown, because I didn't have a car ever in college.
- And we would, freshmen week, take the nineteen
- South Plymouth, which wound all through the 19th Ward
- and took forty-five minutes.
- So I thought we were forty-five minutes from downtown.
- And it wasn't until I student taught
- senior year that I borrowed the same guy's car to go student
- teach.
- It was like, oh, it's five minutes.
- But I forgot what I was going to-- oh,
- I remember being so impressed Linda Pancos knew
- her way around the Inner Loop.
- (laughter)
- That was very impressive.
- I've told her since.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Was Linda a student at the U of R?
- MARLENE GORDON: No.
- I don't know where she came from.
- But she was in the early--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Did you meet her at the Riverview?
- MARLENE GORDON: You know, I don't remember.
- But we were just a bunch--
- I don't remember.
- Maybe she was in GLF.
- I really don't remember.
- But I remember the Riverview in those days being such a--
- EVELYN BAILEY: What year are we--
- MARLENE GORDON: --wonderful place.
- EVELYN BAILEY: --talking?
- MARLENE GORDON: Well, I'm trying to remember if I was still
- in college when we went to the Riverview,
- but I don't remember.
- We probably did.
- I graduated from the U of R in 1972.
- But I just remember Lou being there
- and being so welcoming to everybody, and it was just a--
- well, there was that fight, but--
- (laughs)
- I seem to remember a bottle breaking one night.
- But basically, it was just such a fun place
- to go and see your friends and dance with everybody.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Was there a bar?
- MARLENE GORDON: Yeah.
- Oh, yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And tables?
- MARLENE GORDON: I'm trying to--
- I think there was a pool table.
- I'm not-- I don't remember tables.
- There probably were a few.
- But you know, it was the '70s.
- It was disco.
- It was so much fun to go out dancing.
- And you know, and then Saturday night, I
- remember when I was with Shirley with whom I later
- moved to San Francisco in '77.
- But I remember just being so eager to go out
- Friday nights to be surrounded by all your friends
- in a gay environment.
- Then Saturday night would be date night, you know?
- (laughs)
- Or girlfriend night, whatever.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Was the Riverview ever raided?
- MARLENE GORDON: Well, I remember hearing rumors
- that cops would come and write down license plate numbers.
- We would hear that regularly.
- Well, I remember hearing that anyway.
- EVELYN BAILEY: But do you recall anyone ever
- saying that the Riverview was raided?
- MARLENE GORDON: No.
- Not in my-- no.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And what was Lou like?
- MARLENE GORDON: Oh my God.
- You know, when I moved to San Francisco in '77,
- I missed that bar.
- Because in San Francisco, there were eight million men's bars,
- and there were about four or five women's bars.
- But you'd never see the same people twice.
- And the Riverview was like-- it was like a warm feeling,
- partly because of your friends and partly because Lou.
- Lou was like a little old lady with white hair,
- short white hair, who I think was the mother of the guy that
- owned the bar.
- But she was the one that was there all the time,
- and she would welcome her girls and, you know, she knew us,
- and she was very kind.
- And I remember, you know, teaching all day
- and then having to come back for parent night and thinking, oh.
- I've got to go to the Riv.
- And I'd go to the Riv.
- I'd sit down, have a drink.
- And if I didn't know anybody, Lou would chat with you.
- And she was very kind.
- And I think she died when I was away.
- I was in San Francisco--
- I was in the Bay Area from '77 to '80,
- and I was so sad when I heard she'd passed away.
- I don't remember what year she passed away,
- but I think it was while I was gone.
- Do you know?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yes, I think it was.
- MARLENE GORDON: And it was like, oh, it's terrible.
- EVELYN BAILEY: I don't recall exactly what year it was,
- but I do recall that Claire took Lou's dog, Kiki--
- MARLENE GORDON: Oh.
- EVELYN BAILEY: --when she passed away.
- MARLENE GORDON: Well, I remember there
- was a young woman with a motorcycle who
- lived above the bar.
- Donna.
- Yeah.
- I think her name was Donna.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Donna?
- MARLENE GORDON: Yeah.
- I'm pretty sure.
- And I think I did have one motorcycle ride.
- (laughs)
- Anyway-- well, I do remember a little bit of unrest.
- There were a couple of women who were radical,
- and I think there was actually a fight in the bar.
- And they-- yes, I was still on campus.
- They painted my door.
- Marlene is a fake lesbian, or something like that,
- because I was in the dorm and I had a boyfriend or a friend,
- whatever.
- And I was living with some very straight women.
- I wasn't out to them.
- This was my senior year.
- And it was kind of freaky.
- Yeah, it was pretty freaky.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- MARLENE GORDON: And they didn't ask me about it,
- and I didn't say anything.
- We just tried to get the door fixed up.
- But they were pretty out there.
- And I think one of them was involved in a fight one time
- that involved a bottle of beer.
- A bottle, I think.
- But for the most part, it was just-- you know,
- it was set off in this little nook, and it was, you know,
- it was such a nice place.
- EVELYN BAILEY: People have described
- it as similar to a family--
- MARLENE GORDON: Yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: --and a place that they could always
- go and be welcomed.
- MARLENE GORDON: Like Cheers.
- (laughs)
- Everybody knows your name.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- Do you recall at the time if there was any action or marches
- that you were involved in?
- Because Stonewall occurred in '69.
- MARLENE GORDON: Yeah.
- So I-- you know, I can't remember now if I was even
- aware of that, because I don't think I got involved--
- you know, sometimes I wonder if gay--
- GLF hadn't come to campus, when I
- would have been aware of my own sexuality, because it really--
- you know, it was unconscious.
- But like, you know, now I think I probably
- was in love with my best friend freshman year,
- but it wasn't in my consciousness.
- It wasn't like now.
- We didn't have Ellen or Will & Grace or Modern Family.
- It was such a different world, and you could easily not
- really hear much.
- But I do remember the New Women's Times,
- and I remember being on the New Women's Times softball team
- one summer.
- It was Peyton Place.
- That was my only summer.
- But I think it was--
- I was out of college by then, and it was right
- before I moved to San Francisco with Shirley.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Did you write for the New Women's Times?
- MARLENE GORDON: No, I didn't, but one of my first year
- students, when I was in California,
- I would still get the--
- they would sell it there.
- I would still get the New Women's Times,
- and I saw one of my students, and realized
- she was with somebody I knew.
- And I was like, oh, my little baby's with her.
- (laughs)
- But no, I didn't.
- Although I student taught in the city
- and didn't get a job in the city.
- I was in Spencerport a year and Gates-Chili four years.
- And I was so sick of the isms.
- Those were in the days you could write your own courses,
- so I wrote a course called Minority Literature
- and the Minority Experience and taught it
- as a critical thinking course first.
- So the kids were kind of trained to catch each other
- on critical inference making.
- In other words, stereotypes.
- I taught them that connection.
- And then when we did different units,
- first we did a unit on women.
- And people from the New Women's Times came in.
- And-- well, first I did a unit on the elderly,
- because I figured everybody could relate to it.
- This was about 99% Italian Catholic school at the time.
- And you know, so everybody had--
- most everybody who had a grandparent.
- We talked about how the elderly are treated in our society.
- And then we did a unit on women.
- And I had ordered books for all these units.
- And I even had a unit about--
- oh, and we did physically different,
- which is what we called it at the time,
- and African Americans, which I thought
- was very important to do.
- Oh, Jews.
- We visited a synagogue.
- And so we tied in literature-- fiction and nonfiction,
- actually, with all these units.
- So we did some very serious stuff like Night, Elie Wiesel,
- but also stuff like Fiddler with humor.
- So I did write a unit on homosexuality.
- But the first year-- and I did order a very good teen novel,
- Trying Hard to Hear You by Sandra Scoppettone.
- And we actually got the books.
- I had decided the first year I didn't want the course
- to get banned right away, so I didn't teach the unit.
- But inevitably, someone-- this was a semester junior,
- senior course--
- someone would do a project, because they had
- to do a project on something.
- So a student that I knew--
- I had ran into at the 212, and I--
- we each had a secret about each other,
- because one of their mothers taught there.
- EVELYN BAILEY: The 212?
- MARLENE GORDON: Yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Anthony's?
- Down on Main Street?
- MARLENE GORDON: No.
- It was, like, Colvin Street near Maple Street.
- EVELYN BAILEY: OK.
- MARLENE GORDON: I think it was the 212.
- Yeah.
- I think Anthony's had a different number.
- I'm not sure.
- Anyway, whatever.
- So I had heard a rumor that she was--
- she was in ninth grade at the time--
- that she was hanging out--
- I should be careful what I say.
- Anyway, that she was hanging out at this bar.
- So I was at the Riverview with a teacher, another teacher
- friend, and I was telling her, I said,
- oh, I really want to go down there.
- So again, I'm drinking gins and tonics to get my courage.
- So we walk in there.
- And when you first walk in, it's the bar area.
- And I didn't see her, so I was relaxing.
- So I go in the back room where the dancing is.
- And across a crowded room, I hear (high pitched voice)
- Ms. Gordon!
- (laughs)
- Like-- and then she asks me to dance slow,
- and I'm so uncomfortable.
- So at about three feet length, we were dancing.
- And then I went over to the wall and somebody said, oh, you're
- the English teacher.
- And I'm like, oh, why is she saying that?
- So anyway, we did kind of an outrageous thing.
- I decided that-- we got the class
- in a circle and each person had to say
- how they would feel if they found out
- their best friend was gay.
- Now this is back in 1976.
- EVELYN BAILEY: You were brave.
- MARLENE GORDON: '75 and '76, yeah.
- And everybody said, you know, I wouldn't care,
- or I would throw up, or I wouldn't talk to them anymore,
- or I would freak out, or I'd jump their bones.
- No, nobody said that.
- (laughter)
- Nobody said that.
- (laughter)
- And--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Marlene, you little--
- (Gordon laughs)
- MARLENE GORDON: No, no one said that.
- And finally, it came to the student.
- And she said, well, this woman sitting next to her
- is my friend so-and-so, and she's gay.
- And all these kids were like--
- (gasps)
- Oh, what did I say?
- Oh my God, oh my God.
- And we had a discussion, an amazing discussion.
- So then at lunch some little girl comes running up to me.
- (high-pitched voice) Ms. So-and-so,
- how could you let me say that in front of that girl?
- And I said, well, you probably say things
- in front of gay people all the time
- without knowing they're gay.
- Oh, yeah.
- So you know, those were the days of consciousness raising.
- So it definitely was.
- And the guidance counselor said to me--
- a guidance counselor said to me in the faculty room.
- Oh, I hear you had a very interesting class today.
- And I said, yes, we did.
- (laughs)
- Yeah, and that was way back.
- And I heard later, years later, that the kids were really
- asking to read that book.
- And that made me really happy.
- And all my books--
- you know, my novels and books were still in there,
- and so I felt I had some influence.
- When I got to California, and I wasn't Ms. So-and-so anymore,
- I was like--
- I was really missing that course,
- because they had to keep journal,
- and we had lots of discussions, and I saw--
- I really saw a lot of attitude change.
- And that's what I wanted, and it really made me feel good.
- And they really had to do a research paper
- on a group of their choice.
- And you know, it had to be scholarly.
- And so it was a very humanistic course, but also very academic,
- and I was very proud of it.
- And actually, when I went to graduate school at Berkeley,
- I was involved in an English social studies curriculum
- project on adolescent prejudice.
- And I later saw some of my stuff published--
- (laughs)
- --under someone else's name.
- You know.
- Actually, it was in the teaching diversity
- journal of the Southern Law Poverty conference.
- So yeah.
- So I learned a lot about graduate school too.
- (laughs)
- But so that was a long story about missing the Riverview,
- I guess.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- Tell me a little bit about what it was like to be closeted.
- MARLENE GORDON: Well, it was terrible.
- You know, as a public school teacher,
- it was frightening too.
- I mean, toward the end of my career,
- I was open in the faculty, but I wasn't open with my students.
- I actually did some research in education law
- and came to the conclusion that, you know,
- your job is defined by--
- your ability to keep your job is defined
- by your ability to do your job.
- And if the parents are in a rage and keeping their kids out
- of your class, you can't do your job.
- And I really concluded that it all
- had to do with the mores of the community
- as far as if you could do your job.
- And so it was very hurtful that I knew that a lot of the kids
- that I cared a lot about and cared about me, if they knew--
- without Will & Grace and all the awareness
- and Ellen and Rosie and da, da, da, and Modern Family,
- you know, there was a lot of misconception and fear,
- and people didn't know they knew gay people.
- And I just felt like my students wouldn't be with me.
- You know, I knew Tim Mains way back.
- And before I became a teacher, we did speaking engagements
- at colleges.
- And when he told me about coming out at Greece, I knew--
- I didn't think I had the strength that he had,
- because he talked about being called faggot in the halls.
- And I just didn't think I could do that.
- And I also felt very dependent on my job for my livelihood.
- And I wanted to teach.
- I liked teaching.
- And then as far as with the faculty, it was--
- you know, everybody else could talk about their lives,
- and I couldn't.
- Or if you were going through a terrible breakup
- and you were upset, you know, you
- weren't going to talk about it like other people could
- talk about their relationship.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Do you remember any time
- when you had to lie in order to not come out?
- MARLENE GORDON: Oh, yeah.
- Well, you know, we were always changing pronouns.
- That was a common habit.
- You know, he instead of she.
- And actually, I did have a few bad experiences with coming
- out-- well--
- (laughs)
- I went to visit a high school friend in Sicily.
- She had moved there.
- She had married a Sicilian and practically
- didn't know English anymore.
- And I was reading Rubyfruit Jungle,
- and I didn't remember that I had borrowed it from GLF,
- and it had a stamp in it.
- And she picked up the book and looked inside and said, oh,
- are you involved with that?
- And I said, well, kind of.
- And do you know, I haven't seen that woman since?
- She was really kind of freaked out when I left.
- I mean, I didn't get kicked out.
- And her mother had been very close friends of mine.
- She was an English teacher, and I
- used to always call her and see her when I come home.
- And she helped me at the beginning of my career.
- And she didn't answer my calls.
- I have not seen either of them since.
- And another friend's parents, same thing.
- So it's-- yeah.
- I mean, if you have some bad experiences with coming out,
- you're going to be very hesitant.
- EVELYN BAILEY: No.
- When did you-- did you come out to your family at all?
- MARLENE GORDON: Yes.
- Gradually.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And was that--
- MARLENE GORDON: Why, you want to hear about that?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Was that a positive experience for you?
- MARLENE GORDON: Well, was it--
- it was mixed.
- It depended who it was.
- Like, for example--
- EVELYN BAILEY: I mean like your mother and father.
- MARLENE GORDON: Well, it was like this.
- My girlfriend Shirley was visiting,
- and we were lying on the bed talking,
- and my mother opened the door and said, oh, excuse me!
- And closed the door.
- And I was, like, frozen solid.
- So I went downstairs.
- She was on the phone.
- And I said, Ma, we're going out.
- She said, I'll call you back.
- And she says, please sit down.
- I've been wanting to talk to you.
- Now you haven't mentioned any guys since Jimmy.
- Or no, she said, I'm sorry I walked in on you.
- I said, oh, we were just talking.
- No problem.
- She says, I know you haven't-- anyway,
- we had this conversation, but the gist of it was I ended up
- telling her, who knows what the future may bring?
- Which I partly believed, and I knew
- it would relieve her a little bit.
- But she asked questions that were--
- you know, she was trying, but she
- would ask me questions that really were kind of insulting.
- Like, well, don't you ever want to have
- a permanent relationship?
- And don't you want to have kids?
- And you know, and I'm telling her,
- well, it could be permanent and I could have kids.
- But one of the most painful things to me about everything
- is that I really wanted to have kids,
- and I wanted to raise a kid with a--
- I wanted to give birth to a child,
- and I wanted to raise a child with another woman.
- And it was unheard of then.
- First of all, a public school teacher,
- not married, being pregnant.
- Forget it.
- Now it's nothing.
- Raising a child with another woman.
- It's almost nothing now.
- Not everywhere, but a lot.
- And it's kind of funny.
- I was in a peer counseling group with a bunch--
- a gay peer-- a gay support group.
- And I think every woman in that group--
- lesbian support group-- has had a child except me.
- And I was the one that was talking about that.
- You know, they either had a child or adopted a child.
- A lot of them adopted children.
- But I wanted to do it with someone.
- I took it as such a responsibility,
- and I was so overwhelmed by my job
- with papers outside the classroom.
- I just-- and very isolated, feeling very isolated,
- and actually being very isolated.
- I have no family here.
- They're all somewhere else.
- And so I didn't really know how--
- I didn't think it would be good for me or the child
- to try to do it by myself.
- So that's one of my big regrets in life,
- not having raised a child.
- And it was because of the times I was living in.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- Was that different in California?
- MARLENE GORDON: Everything was a little different there.
- But you know, I had a two-year plan of being out there,
- and turned into a three-year because I got a consulting job.
- But I didn't feel very integrated there at all,
- and I didn't find a gay community per se,
- except for the fact that I did work on Harvey Milk's campaign
- in Newham.
- And that was another thing.
- When he got shot and killed, it was
- the first day I was back in a public school,
- and someone told--
- was talking about it in the faculty room.
- I just went in the bathroom and cried.
- It was like, I thought I was going to gay nirvana,
- and when I arrived there, there was No On 6 campaign
- in which any schoolworker, teacher or schoolworker accused
- of being gay could be immediately fired.
- And it was like, what?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Was that here in Rochester?
- MARLENE GORDON: No, no.
- This is out in San--
- California.
- It was Senator John Briggs.
- And you know, there was--
- so Harvey was working on his campaign,
- and we did defeat Prop 6.
- But I'll never forget being in the auditorium of Mission High
- School in the Mission District of San Francisco
- when the big scream--
- watching this debate where on one side
- you had Harvey Milk and Sally Gearhart who
- was a professor at San Francisco State, a news
- commentator in the middle, and on the other side,
- you have Senator John Briggs, who's bill it was,
- and the minister.
- And the debate was kind of crazy.
- And the moderator at one point said to John Briggs, well,
- Senator, how do you feel about the fact
- that even Governor Reagan is against your bill?
- And he said-- he paused.
- He hesitated, and then he said, well,
- he's with that Hollywood crowd.
- And it was like-- yeah.
- He was making no sense, and it was just--
- it was so pathetic.
- But anyway, so that was defeated.
- And Harvey won, and we were all joyous.
- So this was my first year--
- I remember riding down Market Street on the top of a cable
- car in the gay parade.
- It was wonderful.
- And you know, it was the days of Anita Bryant.
- So it was Barkey, Briggs, and Bryant.
- And you know, there was jubilation when he won
- and the bill got defeated.
- But when he was shot, you know, like in the movie,
- I was there in all those scenes.
- I mean, I was there during the candlelight vigil.
- And then when Dan White got acquitted, people went crazy.
- Went crazy that a supervisor and a mayor, of a major US city
- could be shot and killed, and the guy gets off
- with a Twinkie defense.
- So you'd be in the supermarkets, and the Twinkies
- were piled high.
- There was a big boycott.
- And I was riding down one of the 490-type roads
- around San Francisco.
- I think it was 101, but I'm not sure.
- And there was a big billboard for Twinkies,
- and someone had spray painted, eat these
- and you can get away with murder.
- And it was just--
- I mean, the community was just devastated.
- And it was also, when I first got there, it
- was Guyana, which was a church that had
- been founded in San Francisco.
- The Zebra killings had just happened.
- You know, there was so much violence.
- It was such a mix of joy and grief.
- It was such a tumultuous time.
- And for me, being in a couple of earthquakes when I first
- got-- you know, the earthquake symbolized
- the whole thing for me.
- I had, as I say, I had this illusion of gay nirvana,
- and it wasn't so.
- And you know, the community was just rocked.
- So when the riots happened, I mean, you
- could totally understand it.
- Turning over police cars, setting them on fire.
- I mean, the justice system hadn't worked at all.
- So later when Dan White killed himself,
- I wasn't at all surprised.
- But that was-- you know, and that scared me.
- It scared me a lot.
- So here when Tim Mains was running as an openly gay man,
- I was scared.
- I didn't tell him that, but I had just been through that,
- you know, when he ran for--
- I guess it was for city council.
- So I think of him as a very brave person.
- Well, he is a very brave person.
- But unfortunately, that experience
- scared me to death, really.
- It's so personal to me.
- I was there.
- EVELYN BAILEY: So you were teaching in California
- at the time.
- MARLENE GORDON: No, actually.
- I had promised-- I was always teaching and going to school
- for five years here first.
- So I had my thirty graduate hours.
- And I promised myself I would not go to school
- or teach for a year.
- So I sold sandwich--
- I wanted to work in a cafe, but somehow
- I ended up, because I talk to people--
- (laughs)
- When I opened up a checking account,
- I was offered a job as a part-time teller, so I did it.
- And talk about a high pressure job.
- And it was right after Patty Hearst,
- so we had to see all these bank robbery movies.
- You know, my car was named Tanya.
- And so you know, and I had to dress all up.
- I had to get dressed up.
- And the only good thing was Halloween,
- because Halloween is wonderful in San Francisco.
- And I thought of dressing as my Aunt Jenny in Brooklyn
- and saying, what?
- You're going to take money?
- You couldn't give a little?
- But I decided I shouldn't do that.
- And then the other idea was dressing as a bank robber,
- but I didn't think that was a good idea either.
- So after a week in teller school--
- two weeks in teller school, in the basement of a bank with no
- windows with eleven out of thirteen people smoking,
- including the teacher--
- in those days, you couldn't-- it wasn't politically correct
- to ask someone not to smoke, and watching Patty Hearst--
- you know, you weren't thinking about stealing a penny.
- You were worried you weren't going
- to balance by the end of the day, you know?
- Not that I wasn't balanced anyway, but you know,
- at the time.
- So yeah, so I did various little jobs the first year.
- And then I became a resident.
- I wanted to go back to school without going into debt again.
- So I was going to either go to Berkeley
- in this English social studies (unintelligible)
- or to Santa Barbara, which had a very humanistic education
- program.
- And I went there to meet some professors whose book I
- had read in Rochester.
- So I decided it would be better to come back with a--
- come back east with a degree from Berkeley,
- so I did that program.
- But I spent a quarter down in Santa Barbara.
- It was wonderful.
- EVELYN BAILEY: How long were you in California?
- MARLENE GORDON: So I was there three years instead of two.
- And I was going through a breakup--
- in the first fall, I was in a couple of earthquakes,
- there was No On 6, my parents split up,
- my relationship fell apart.
- I was not in a good way.
- But I didn't believe in therapy, one-way therapy.
- I was into that peer counseling, and I wasn't
- into medication at the time.
- So I was on function mode, though.
- I mean, I had a full-time--
- I got my master's degree from Berkeley,
- and I had a full-time consulting job.
- And you know-- and I came back.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And when did you work on Harvey Milk's campaign?
- When he ran for--
- MARLENE GORDON: When I first got there,
- he was running for town supervisor, and he won.
- Yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And then two years--
- how long after that--
- MARLENE GORDON: Well, it was the following year
- that he was killed.
- He was-- I got there in '77, he was killed in '78.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- MARLENE GORDON: I believe--
- it was the fall.
- It was the fall, because it was the next school year,
- and I believe it was something like October.
- I don't remember the date, but it was early in the school
- year, maybe six weeks into the school
- year, something like that.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Share with me a little bit
- about your observations of other people
- when the word came out that Harvey Milk was assassinated.
- MARLENE GORDON: Well, in the school they were discussing it.
- And they were upset.
- You know, I think he was well respected.
- But as I say, I didn't get in a discussion.
- I went in the bathroom and cried.
- But the teacher whose class I was supposed
- to be going into and doing a lesson
- must have realized, because she said, you know, you don't have
- to go teach if you don't want.
- I said, no, that's OK.
- And as I said, you know, the gay people in the city who were--
- it was just a feeling of mourning.
- It was just terrible.
- And as I said, the city was already
- shaken up by Guyana and the Zebra killings.
- It was just-- a lot of stuff was happening.
- A lot of violence somehow related to San Francisco.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And you attended the candlelight vigil?
- MARLENE GORDON: No, I watched it on TV.
- I just-- I couldn't go.
- I couldn't get my-- you know, I couldn't go.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And what was the feeling
- when Dan White was arrested?
- MARLENE GORDON: Oh, people were angry.
- So angry.
- That's why there were riots.
- I mean, well, there was disbelief first, I think.
- It was a combination of total disbelief and amazing anger.
- And of course, sadness.
- But there was a lot of anger.
- Well, you know, I remember--
- I think I remember, it was a long time ago--
- but it being on national news.
- I mean, as I said before, a mayor of a major--
- you know, I think if it hadn't been linked with Harvey Milk
- and it was just the mayor, he would have been convicted.
- The thing with Dan White was that he was Mr. All-American.
- I believe he had been a cop, and he was--
- I think he was Catholic.
- He was in several good boys clubs.
- He just was-- you know, they were like polar opposites.
- And I think that was something--
- I can't recall-- but something about redistricting,
- and it had to do with his constituency, and da, da, da,
- da, da.
- But-- can you stop that?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Little more.
- So--
- MARLENE GORDON: Do you want me to finish that other story?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Harvey Milk died.
- Dan White was arrested.
- There was tremendous uproar.
- MARLENE GORDON: No.
- There was tremendous uproar after the trial when he was--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Acquitted.
- MARLENE GORDON: --acquitted.
- That was the horrible uproar.
- Before that, it was just terrible sadness.
- And of course, an expectation that he was going to be
- convicted.
- They knew he did it.
- They didn't know about the Twinkie defense,
- that he had too much sugar that day.
- I mean, he walked--
- he walked into-- did he walk or go through a window?
- Anyway, he walks into City Hall and shoots the mayor
- and supervisor.
- And he's acquitted.
- Anyway.
- So yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And that was the second year
- you were in California.
- And then you stayed one more year.
- MARLENE GORDON: Well, I stayed because I
- had started a graduate program, and I
- wasn't happy with what they were doing,
- because I felt I had already done it and taught it.
- And so a professor knew and asked me
- if I wanted to join him as a multiculture consultant
- at an elementary school.
- So I said, sure.
- And interestingly, Leval Wilson at the time
- was the superintendent of Berkeley Public Schools.
- But this job of mine was in a district outside
- of Berkeley called Richmond, which was kind of urban.
- I mean, the sixth grade girls were in gangs already.
- Let's put it that way.
- But anyway, I loved doing that.
- I modified what I did with the high school kids
- to an elementary level, and I loved it.
- I had never worked with elementary kids.
- But anyway.
- So I got to appreciate what--
- and California was way ahead of us with multiculture.
- But I mean, they had a whole multicultural center
- in Berkeley.
- But in any event, yeah, that was a very good experience.
- And they wanted me back, but I wanted to finish my degree
- and come back east.
- I knew I wasn't staying out there.
- Shirley stayed out there.
- She's still there.
- And you know, we've become very good friends after all these--
- I mean, we have been very good friends.
- EVELYN BAILEY: When you came back east,
- did you return to Rochester?
- MARLENE GORDON: Well, I always thought I'd go back to Boston,
- but I realized my whole adult life had been here.
- My connections were here.
- I thought I was coming back to a job in the city, which
- fell through at the last minute, so I took a one-year job
- in Webster.
- And then the next year, I started in the city
- and did the rest of my career in the city.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Mm-hm.
- So going back to your coming out experience with your family--
- MARLENE GORDON: Oh, yeah.
- I was--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Your mother--
- MARLENE GORDON: Well, after that conversation--
- she did her best, but she was never comfortable.
- You know?
- And partly it was me, because she said, you know,
- some people at work would talk about their gay kids,
- and she wasn't sure if I would want her to.
- And I wasn't sure I wanted her to either.
- I don't know why.
- But so it was a combination of my and her discomfort.
- But I mean, she had a hard time with it.
- My father-- oh my God.
- The story with my father is really funny.
- It's before that story.
- Let's see.
- Oh.
- When I had first come out here, I went home for the summer
- from college.
- And-- oh.
- A bunch of us met in New York City for the gay parade
- over the summer.
- And by the end of the weekend, my first lover
- was with somebody else from Rochester,
- and I was devastated.
- Oh my God.
- So I came home, and who was I going to talk to?
- So I found in the Boston alternative papers
- that there was a gay support group in the city.
- So I would borrow my parents' car and go into these meetings.
- So one day, my father comes into my bedroom.
- Says, Marlene, sit down.
- I want to talk to you.
- I said, OK.
- (laughs)
- And he says, your mother thinks you're hanging out
- with a bunch of lesbians.
- And I said, what?
- And he said, well, you know those women-- those meetings
- you're going to in the city?
- I said, oh, those women's liberation meetings?
- And he says, hm.
- And he says, well, what about all that literature?
- I said, what literature?
- He says, under your bed.
- (laughs)
- And I cannot remember if I said, well,
- you know how they hand you things in the street in Boston,
- or that I was doing a research project for the U of R.
- But he looked at me.
- We both just started laughing.
- And I just said, well, just tell her not to worry.
- He said, OK. and he walks out.
- And that was it.
- And he's never-- he's never given a shit.
- I mean, he's always been totally cool about that.
- And then when he had moved to New Hampshire,
- he said to me, oh, you know, we have
- two lesbians building the foundation of this building.
- I said, oh, that's nice.
- As a matter of fact, in his later years,
- he got very politically active, and he ran for state rep.
- He got killed because it's so Republican there.
- But he was on school board, and he
- was on the board of the Civil Liberties Union.
- Then he was president of it for the state of New Hampshire.
- And then he got tired of the politics.
- But he had a branch on campus at Keene State.
- So one fall, he says, Marlene, listen what happened.
- I said, what?
- And he said, I went to the campus,
- and my mailbox was gone.
- So I went to the Student Activities office, and I said--
- and I found out that you have to,
- every year, have at least ten students enrolled.
- So he says, well, out of the corner of my eye,
- I saw that there was a gay group meeting that night.
- And I went back there--
- I went to it and I asked them if I could speak.
- I said, you know, I'm a member of PFLAG, and you know,
- the ACLU is on campus.
- You know, we're working for your rights too.
- And he said, the next day, I had my mailbox back.
- (laughs)
- Isn't that great?
- He's a riot.
- Now my sister, I always had this terrible conflict
- with my mother.
- And one time, I guess I was back home from college
- and she was still in high school.
- And I said-- oh, no.
- I was out of college, but I was visiting.
- I had this big fight with my mother,
- and I said to my sister-- we were--
- we always shared a room.
- So we're both in bed.
- And I said, you know, you never support me in arguments with--
- conflicts with Mom.
- And she says, well, I'll tell you this.
- I support your relationship with Shirley.
- And I just started crying, because we had never
- talked about it.
- I couldn't believe it.
- I was just-- it was amazing.
- And then my brother and I didn't talk about it for many years
- later.
- And then one day we just talked about it, and he was fine,
- you know?
- It wasn't-- it actually wasn't till about a month ago when he
- was visiting me here that I asked him about his kids.
- He said, oh, you know, a while ago it came up,
- and so I talked to them.
- And they said, well, how come you never said anything sooner?
- And he said, well, I wanted--
- I want-- I don't know.
- I didn't know how I felt, and I wanted you to love your aunt.
- And they said, don't be ridiculous.
- (laughter)
- So that's my whole family.
- EVELYN BAILEY: That's great.
- When you look back, Marlene, over your life, what--
- MARLENE GORDON: My so-called life?
- (laugh)
- EVELYN BAILEY: No.
- MARLENE GORDON: No, I'm kidding.
- EVELYN BAILEY: What stands out most
- in your mind about gay liberation?
- MARLENE GORDON: Well, I really hate to say this,
- and you can't put this in the documentary.
- But you know, I'm a little bit resentful that--
- I always seem to be the pioneer.
- But when I--
- I mean, I'm proud of the political work I've done
- and the things I did, and especially the thing
- in the school.
- But I think-- you know, I know that my life
- would have been very different had I
- either been braver or crazier.
- I'm not sure.
- I mean, I would have liked--
- I mean, the kids nowadays are growing up
- in such a different world.
- It's not completely fabulous and wonderful and OK,
- but in terms of acceptance and raising
- a child, that kind of thing.
- And you know, I know that that's a terrible attitude,
- because you know, I mean, I think if some black friends
- of mine said, I'm resentful that I grew up in-- you know,
- it would seem--
- it wouldn't seem like the right way to be,
- although I could understand that too.
- I don't know.
- I just-- it was very, very difficult, especially
- being a public school teacher.
- You know, I know there are some other professions.
- But I mean, you know, when I was out in California,
- the phrase you heard over and over again
- was impressionable youth.
- You know, they're going to get to impressionable youth.
- You know, like, you were going to spread something or at least
- proselytize or something.
- And you know, I mean, I went through a whole AIDS education
- scandal here in the city school district
- in a parent-teacher meeting that was close to a lynch mob.
- Oh, it's a whole story.
- I'll have to write about it sometime.
- But you know, even AIDS education,
- as late as I believe that was in the mid to late '80s,
- parents were, you know, a certain community,
- religious right in the city.
- Whoo!
- You can't touch that with a ten-foot pole.
- I remember a community leader who
- will go unnamed coming to the school
- and talking to a group of African American boys
- and telling them that there was no such thing as a gay African
- American boy.
- And actually, some faculty members, you know,
- put up a stink about the fact that he was allowed
- to preach that in our school.
- And you know, I mean, things have
- changed some in that community too, but you know,
- they're still--
- you know, I find it politically scary right now too.
- When I think about social agendas going back
- fifty, sixty years, it's scary.
- So you know, I guess I'm not supposed to be
- saying all this stuff, but--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Why not?
- MARLENE GORDON: --it's very deep-seated with me.
- Well, you know, I don't know.
- I'm supposed to be rah, rah, rah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: It's It's how you feel and it's what you think.
- MARLENE GORDON: Yeah.
- Yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And that more than anything
- motivates you to do what you do.
- You know?
- MARLENE GORDON: Yeah.
- I mean, I have a very strong--
- from my childhood, sense of social justice.
- But it's tough.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
- MARLENE GORDON: It's really tough.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And it's almost--
- I mean, what I'm hearing from you
- is you are almost a person out of sync with the time.
- MARLENE GORDON: Yeah, on a lot of things
- I felt like I was ahead of my time or something.
- You know, with the critical thinking work.
- Then it became a buzzword, you know?
- I called in minority literature.
- Now it's diversity, you know?
- Wanting to raise a child with another woman.
- Oh my God.
- Are you kidding?
- And that, you know, I do feel like that a lot.
- Like, ahead of my time.
- And just not having-- well, I think even relationships.
- You know, I think a lot of relationships, gay or straight,
- are supported by--
- have a lot of social support by this community
- or that community, or even your immediate-- especially
- your immediate family.
- And wasn't there.
- And I think that's--
- personally, I think that's why a lot of relationships
- early on were short-lived.
- I mean, nowadays if you're in a strong relationship, I mean,
- your family and the larger society
- is kind of expecting you might have a long-time relationship.
- And what are you doing to keep that relationship together?
- And supporting you in doing that.
- That's very different.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Well, the image and the attitude
- of what being gay is all about has changed tremendously
- in the past fifteen years.
- MARLENE GORDON: Yeah.
- Definitely.
- I mean, you know, Modern Family.
- Oh, we're going to have a baby.
- Oh, how cute.
- Not, oh my God!
- You're going to make the kid gay.
- You know?
- It's just so different.
- And Modern Family won again last night for best comedy.
- And two of the actors for best actors.
- And I believe supporting actress too.
- I'm not sure.
- But anyway, yeah.
- And that program has won three years in a row.
- I mean, that's a big change.
- And that is regular TV.
- It's not even cable.
- And that's a big deal.
- EVELYN BAILEY: One more question.
- When all is said and done, how do you
- want Marlene Gordon to be remembered?
- MARLENE GORDON: Oh!
- It sounds so final!
- That's tough.
- Well, you know, this word came to my-- brave.
- And I just was saying I'm not brave.
- But integrity, bravery, kindness, persistence,
- intelligent.
- (laughs)
- I don't know.
- Boy, that's quite a question.
- But those are the words that popped into my mind.
- Bostonian.
- No.
- (laughs)
- EVELYN BAILEY: Thank you.
- (laughs)