Audio Interview, Marlene Gordon, September 24, 2012

EVELYN BAILEY: The date is September 24,

and I'm sitting here in the (unintelligible)

room with Marlene Gordon, who was

an original member of the Gay Liberation Front

at the University of Rochester.

And what I really want to ask Marlene

is not only what she remembers, but a little bit

about her own history so we can get

a sense of how the Gay Liberation Front fits

into your own life, as it were.

Were you born in Rochester?

MARLENE GORDON: No, I grew up just outside

of Boston, Massachusetts.

And I was lured up here by a part scholarship

to the University of Rochester, undergraduate.

EVELYN BAILEY: In what program?

MARLENE GORDON: Well, I started in psychology,

but by the second year, I switched to English.

EVELYN BAILEY: And what year was that?

MARLENE GORDON: Well, I started at the U of R in 1968.

And I believe it was 1970, I saw a notice in the Campus Times

about this gay group.

And I think it was that year.

And I started going to meetings.

I wasn't exactly sure why I was going.

I had a boyfriend at the time.

And so I walked into Todd Union to a meeting,

and people were-- am I talking loud enough?

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

MARLENE GORDON: Oh.

People were sitting around in little groups

with some discussion topic.

And I was sitting with a bunch of guys who said to me,

are you gay?

And I said, I don't know.

And I was surprised I even said that,

because it was very subconscious or pretty subconscious

at the time.

So anyway, so they said, have you ever been to a gay bar?

And I said, no.

They said, you want to go?

I said, OK.

So I got in this truck with these guys I didn't even know,

and we went downtown to I think Dick's

43, which is no longer there.

And anyway-- oh.

So I walked into this bar to these guys doing a chorus line

to "I'd Rather Be Blue," and I thought that was a lot of fun.

And I started drinking gin and tonics immediately, nervously.

And then this rather large woman asked me to dance slow.

And I remembered dancing and thinking,

why aren't I more uncomfortable?

Why aren't I more uncomfortable?

And so we had a good time.

And then there was somebody--

there were two women who were students at RIT.

I think NTID.

And they and a couple of guys said,

oh, let's go over to our place.

So we went to this guy's apartment.

We were hanging.

Anyway, I don't remember too much more about the evening,

but--

(laughter)

--it was fun.

So I started going to these GLF meetings.

And meantime, I was telling--

I shouldn't use names.

Anyway, I was telling my boyfriend

about going to these meetings, and I was curious about it.

And he was very supportive the whole time.

And actually, we ended up being friends for a very long time.

So then-- but I remembered that dance, that first dance.

And I remember these beautiful decorations,

silver decorations.

And I remember-- afterwards, I remembered

how nice it was that the men and women were

working together and having fun together,

and there wasn't a big split between the men and women.

And I was very nervous to go into that dance,

because it was right on campus in the--

I think it was the dining hall where the bookstore is now,

downstairs.

EVELYN BAILEY: Was there a name for that?

MARLENE GORDON: For the dance?

I don't--

EVELYN BAILEY: No, for the dining hall.

MARLENE GORDON: Oh.

It was Frederick Douglass Building.

And I think it was that dance--

there's a poster for it that's still around in the--

in the office here.

And it was so much fun.

It was really, really nice.

And I eventually met someone in that group

and got involved with her.

And you know, I was living in the dorms,

and I remember being very careful.

Of course, the people next door who

had given me a hard time, turned out they were--

it was my resident advisor and another student,

and it turns out they were in a relationship.

And they were giving me a hard time about it.

But anyway, so that was the year I came out.

And so that's what I remember about the beginning of GLF.

And you know, Patti Evans was there.

I don't know if I mentioned any names or not.

Anyway, Patti Evans became friends with me.

We were-- there were three of us, I think,

undergraduate students.

Larry Fine was the other one--

at first.

And a lot of the people in GLF were actually from the city,

but it was being housed at the U of R.

I believe it was much more--

many more people who were not actually from the campus.

Students from other campuses and people from Rochester.

And I remember Karen.

Of course, Karen Hagberg and RJ were there from Eastman School.

And But I remember that period of the dances being--

because it was different later--

the men and the women working together

and having a really good time together,

and those are happy memories for me about that.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

Now let me go back a bit.

When you say Todd Union, do you remember where in Todd Union?

Because you walk into Todd Union and they are seating areas.

MARLENE GORDON: You know, I don't know how it is now.

Because at that time, there was no Wilson center.

And so that was the student union.

That's where our mailboxes were.

I think there was-- you know, I haven't been there

in such a long time, even though I lived in Rochester most

of the time since.

I think it was upstairs that there was a rather large room

where we met.

Yeah, I seem to remember that was the room where

we gave blood one time--

(laughs)

--for a fellow student whose sibling needed it.

Yeah, it was a big room upstairs.

EVELYN BAILEY: And do you remember

when those meetings were?

What day of the week?

MARLENE GORDON: Oh, no.

EVELYN BAILEY: What time?

MARLENE GORDON: No.

I'm sure the Campus Times would have that.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah, I think they were on Sunday.

MARLENE GORDON: Yeah, I really--

I really don't remember.

But I know Dick's 43 was open that night.

(laughter)

Afternoon, actually, I think.

No, I don't remember if it was evening or--

EVELYN BAILEY: Did you meet Martha?

MARLENE GORDON: Martha Brown?

EVELYN BAILEY: At Dick's 43?

MARLENE GORDON: Martha?

EVELYN BAILEY: Who owned Dick's 43?

MARLENE GORDON: Oh, no.

You know, and I-- after that, the only bar I really remember

is the Riverview, I remember fondly.

We used to--

I guess it was after I graduated,

I remember when I first started teaching

after being so closeted all week long,

loving to go out on Friday nights and see all my friends.

And it was-- although-- oh, I had two.

I have one funny memory of back when I was still on campus.

I thought the campus was forty-five minutes

from downtown, because I didn't have a car ever in college.

And we would, freshmen week, take the nineteen

South Plymouth, which wound all through the 19th Ward

and took forty-five minutes.

So I thought we were forty-five minutes from downtown.

And it wasn't until I student taught

senior year that I borrowed the same guy's car to go student

teach.

It was like, oh, it's five minutes.

But I forgot what I was going to-- oh,

I remember being so impressed Linda Pancos knew

her way around the Inner Loop.

(laughter)

That was very impressive.

I've told her since.

EVELYN BAILEY: Was Linda a student at the U of R?

MARLENE GORDON: No.

I don't know where she came from.

But she was in the early--

EVELYN BAILEY: Did you meet her at the Riverview?

MARLENE GORDON: You know, I don't remember.

But we were just a bunch--

I don't remember.

Maybe she was in GLF.

I really don't remember.

But I remember the Riverview in those days being such a--

EVELYN BAILEY: What year are we--

MARLENE GORDON: --wonderful place.

EVELYN BAILEY: --talking?

MARLENE GORDON: Well, I'm trying to remember if I was still

in college when we went to the Riverview,

but I don't remember.

We probably did.

I graduated from the U of R in 1972.

But I just remember Lou being there

and being so welcoming to everybody, and it was just a--

well, there was that fight, but--

(laughs)

I seem to remember a bottle breaking one night.

But basically, it was just such a fun place

to go and see your friends and dance with everybody.

EVELYN BAILEY: Was there a bar?

MARLENE GORDON: Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: And tables?

MARLENE GORDON: I'm trying to--

I think there was a pool table.

I'm not-- I don't remember tables.

There probably were a few.

But you know, it was the '70s.

It was disco.

It was so much fun to go out dancing.

And you know, and then Saturday night, I

remember when I was with Shirley with whom I later

moved to San Francisco in '77.

But I remember just being so eager to go out

Friday nights to be surrounded by all your friends

in a gay environment.

Then Saturday night would be date night, you know?

(laughs)

Or girlfriend night, whatever.

EVELYN BAILEY: Was the Riverview ever raided?

MARLENE GORDON: Well, I remember hearing rumors

that cops would come and write down license plate numbers.

We would hear that regularly.

Well, I remember hearing that anyway.

EVELYN BAILEY: But do you recall anyone ever

saying that the Riverview was raided?

MARLENE GORDON: No.

Not in my-- no.

EVELYN BAILEY: And what was Lou like?

MARLENE GORDON: Oh my God.

You know, when I moved to San Francisco in '77,

I missed that bar.

Because in San Francisco, there were eight million men's bars,

and there were about four or five women's bars.

But you'd never see the same people twice.

And the Riverview was like-- it was like a warm feeling,

partly because of your friends and partly because Lou.

Lou was like a little old lady with white hair,

short white hair, who I think was the mother of the guy that

owned the bar.

But she was the one that was there all the time,

and she would welcome her girls and, you know, she knew us,

and she was very kind.

And I remember, you know, teaching all day

and then having to come back for parent night and thinking, oh.

I've got to go to the Riv.

And I'd go to the Riv.

I'd sit down, have a drink.

And if I didn't know anybody, Lou would chat with you.

And she was very kind.

And I think she died when I was away.

I was in San Francisco--

I was in the Bay Area from '77 to '80,

and I was so sad when I heard she'd passed away.

I don't remember what year she passed away,

but I think it was while I was gone.

Do you know?

EVELYN BAILEY: Yes, I think it was.

MARLENE GORDON: And it was like, oh, it's terrible.

EVELYN BAILEY: I don't recall exactly what year it was,

but I do recall that Claire took Lou's dog, Kiki--

MARLENE GORDON: Oh.

EVELYN BAILEY: --when she passed away.

MARLENE GORDON: Well, I remember there

was a young woman with a motorcycle who

lived above the bar.

Donna.

Yeah.

I think her name was Donna.

EVELYN BAILEY: Donna?

MARLENE GORDON: Yeah.

I'm pretty sure.

And I think I did have one motorcycle ride.

(laughs)

Anyway-- well, I do remember a little bit of unrest.

There were a couple of women who were radical,

and I think there was actually a fight in the bar.

And they-- yes, I was still on campus.

They painted my door.

Marlene is a fake lesbian, or something like that,

because I was in the dorm and I had a boyfriend or a friend,

whatever.

And I was living with some very straight women.

I wasn't out to them.

This was my senior year.

And it was kind of freaky.

Yeah, it was pretty freaky.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

MARLENE GORDON: And they didn't ask me about it,

and I didn't say anything.

We just tried to get the door fixed up.

But they were pretty out there.

And I think one of them was involved in a fight one time

that involved a bottle of beer.

A bottle, I think.

But for the most part, it was just-- you know,

it was set off in this little nook, and it was, you know,

it was such a nice place.

EVELYN BAILEY: People have described

it as similar to a family--

MARLENE GORDON: Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: --and a place that they could always

go and be welcomed.

MARLENE GORDON: Like Cheers.

(laughs)

Everybody knows your name.

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

Do you recall at the time if there was any action or marches

that you were involved in?

Because Stonewall occurred in '69.

MARLENE GORDON: Yeah.

So I-- you know, I can't remember now if I was even

aware of that, because I don't think I got involved--

you know, sometimes I wonder if gay--

GLF hadn't come to campus, when I

would have been aware of my own sexuality, because it really--

you know, it was unconscious.

But like, you know, now I think I probably

was in love with my best friend freshman year,

but it wasn't in my consciousness.

It wasn't like now.

We didn't have Ellen or Will & Grace or Modern Family.

It was such a different world, and you could easily not

really hear much.

But I do remember the New Women's Times,

and I remember being on the New Women's Times softball team

one summer.

It was Peyton Place.

That was my only summer.

But I think it was--

I was out of college by then, and it was right

before I moved to San Francisco with Shirley.

EVELYN BAILEY: Did you write for the New Women's Times?

MARLENE GORDON: No, I didn't, but one of my first year

students, when I was in California,

I would still get the--

they would sell it there.

I would still get the New Women's Times,

and I saw one of my students, and realized

she was with somebody I knew.

And I was like, oh, my little baby's with her.

(laughs)

But no, I didn't.

Although I student taught in the city

and didn't get a job in the city.

I was in Spencerport a year and Gates-Chili four years.

And I was so sick of the isms.

Those were in the days you could write your own courses,

so I wrote a course called Minority Literature

and the Minority Experience and taught it

as a critical thinking course first.

So the kids were kind of trained to catch each other

on critical inference making.

In other words, stereotypes.

I taught them that connection.

And then when we did different units,

first we did a unit on women.

And people from the New Women's Times came in.

And-- well, first I did a unit on the elderly,

because I figured everybody could relate to it.

This was about 99% Italian Catholic school at the time.

And you know, so everybody had--

most everybody who had a grandparent.

We talked about how the elderly are treated in our society.

And then we did a unit on women.

And I had ordered books for all these units.

And I even had a unit about--

oh, and we did physically different,

which is what we called it at the time,

and African Americans, which I thought

was very important to do.

Oh, Jews.

We visited a synagogue.

And so we tied in literature-- fiction and nonfiction,

actually, with all these units.

So we did some very serious stuff like Night, Elie Wiesel,

but also stuff like Fiddler with humor.

So I did write a unit on homosexuality.

But the first year-- and I did order a very good teen novel,

Trying Hard to Hear You by Sandra Scoppettone.

And we actually got the books.

I had decided the first year I didn't want the course

to get banned right away, so I didn't teach the unit.

But inevitably, someone-- this was a semester junior,

senior course--

someone would do a project, because they had

to do a project on something.

So a student that I knew--

I had ran into at the 212, and I--

we each had a secret about each other,

because one of their mothers taught there.

EVELYN BAILEY: The 212?

MARLENE GORDON: Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: Anthony's?

Down on Main Street?

MARLENE GORDON: No.

It was, like, Colvin Street near Maple Street.

EVELYN BAILEY: OK.

MARLENE GORDON: I think it was the 212.

Yeah.

I think Anthony's had a different number.

I'm not sure.

Anyway, whatever.

So I had heard a rumor that she was--

she was in ninth grade at the time--

that she was hanging out--

I should be careful what I say.

Anyway, that she was hanging out at this bar.

So I was at the Riverview with a teacher, another teacher

friend, and I was telling her, I said,

oh, I really want to go down there.

So again, I'm drinking gins and tonics to get my courage.

So we walk in there.

And when you first walk in, it's the bar area.

And I didn't see her, so I was relaxing.

So I go in the back room where the dancing is.

And across a crowded room, I hear (high pitched voice)

Ms. Gordon!

(laughs)

Like-- and then she asks me to dance slow,

and I'm so uncomfortable.

So at about three feet length, we were dancing.

And then I went over to the wall and somebody said, oh, you're

the English teacher.

And I'm like, oh, why is she saying that?

So anyway, we did kind of an outrageous thing.

I decided that-- we got the class

in a circle and each person had to say

how they would feel if they found out

their best friend was gay.

Now this is back in 1976.

EVELYN BAILEY: You were brave.

MARLENE GORDON: '75 and '76, yeah.

And everybody said, you know, I wouldn't care,

or I would throw up, or I wouldn't talk to them anymore,

or I would freak out, or I'd jump their bones.

No, nobody said that.

(laughter)

Nobody said that.

(laughter)

And--

EVELYN BAILEY: Marlene, you little--

(Gordon laughs)

MARLENE GORDON: No, no one said that.

And finally, it came to the student.

And she said, well, this woman sitting next to her

is my friend so-and-so, and she's gay.

And all these kids were like--

(gasps)

Oh, what did I say?

Oh my God, oh my God.

And we had a discussion, an amazing discussion.

So then at lunch some little girl comes running up to me.

(high-pitched voice) Ms. So-and-so,

how could you let me say that in front of that girl?

And I said, well, you probably say things

in front of gay people all the time

without knowing they're gay.

Oh, yeah.

So you know, those were the days of consciousness raising.

So it definitely was.

And the guidance counselor said to me--

a guidance counselor said to me in the faculty room.

Oh, I hear you had a very interesting class today.

And I said, yes, we did.

(laughs)

Yeah, and that was way back.

And I heard later, years later, that the kids were really

asking to read that book.

And that made me really happy.

And all my books--

you know, my novels and books were still in there,

and so I felt I had some influence.

When I got to California, and I wasn't Ms. So-and-so anymore,

I was like--

I was really missing that course,

because they had to keep journal,

and we had lots of discussions, and I saw--

I really saw a lot of attitude change.

And that's what I wanted, and it really made me feel good.

And they really had to do a research paper

on a group of their choice.

And you know, it had to be scholarly.

And so it was a very humanistic course, but also very academic,

and I was very proud of it.

And actually, when I went to graduate school at Berkeley,

I was involved in an English social studies curriculum

project on adolescent prejudice.

And I later saw some of my stuff published--

(laughs)

--under someone else's name.

You know.

Actually, it was in the teaching diversity

journal of the Southern Law Poverty conference.

So yeah.

So I learned a lot about graduate school too.

(laughs)

But so that was a long story about missing the Riverview,

I guess.

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

Tell me a little bit about what it was like to be closeted.

MARLENE GORDON: Well, it was terrible.

You know, as a public school teacher,

it was frightening too.

I mean, toward the end of my career,

I was open in the faculty, but I wasn't open with my students.

I actually did some research in education law

and came to the conclusion that, you know,

your job is defined by--

your ability to keep your job is defined

by your ability to do your job.

And if the parents are in a rage and keeping their kids out

of your class, you can't do your job.

And I really concluded that it all

had to do with the mores of the community

as far as if you could do your job.

And so it was very hurtful that I knew that a lot of the kids

that I cared a lot about and cared about me, if they knew--

without Will & Grace and all the awareness

and Ellen and Rosie and da, da, da, and Modern Family,

you know, there was a lot of misconception and fear,

and people didn't know they knew gay people.

And I just felt like my students wouldn't be with me.

You know, I knew Tim Mains way back.

And before I became a teacher, we did speaking engagements

at colleges.

And when he told me about coming out at Greece, I knew--

I didn't think I had the strength that he had,

because he talked about being called faggot in the halls.

And I just didn't think I could do that.

And I also felt very dependent on my job for my livelihood.

And I wanted to teach.

I liked teaching.

And then as far as with the faculty, it was--

you know, everybody else could talk about their lives,

and I couldn't.

Or if you were going through a terrible breakup

and you were upset, you know, you

weren't going to talk about it like other people could

talk about their relationship.

EVELYN BAILEY: Do you remember any time

when you had to lie in order to not come out?

MARLENE GORDON: Oh, yeah.

Well, you know, we were always changing pronouns.

That was a common habit.

You know, he instead of she.

And actually, I did have a few bad experiences with coming

out-- well--

(laughs)

I went to visit a high school friend in Sicily.

She had moved there.

She had married a Sicilian and practically

didn't know English anymore.

And I was reading Rubyfruit Jungle,

and I didn't remember that I had borrowed it from GLF,

and it had a stamp in it.

And she picked up the book and looked inside and said, oh,

are you involved with that?

And I said, well, kind of.

And do you know, I haven't seen that woman since?

She was really kind of freaked out when I left.

I mean, I didn't get kicked out.

And her mother had been very close friends of mine.

She was an English teacher, and I

used to always call her and see her when I come home.

And she helped me at the beginning of my career.

And she didn't answer my calls.

I have not seen either of them since.

And another friend's parents, same thing.

So it's-- yeah.

I mean, if you have some bad experiences with coming out,

you're going to be very hesitant.

EVELYN BAILEY: No.

When did you-- did you come out to your family at all?

MARLENE GORDON: Yes.

Gradually.

EVELYN BAILEY: And was that--

MARLENE GORDON: Why, you want to hear about that?

EVELYN BAILEY: Was that a positive experience for you?

MARLENE GORDON: Well, was it--

it was mixed.

It depended who it was.

Like, for example--

EVELYN BAILEY: I mean like your mother and father.

MARLENE GORDON: Well, it was like this.

My girlfriend Shirley was visiting,

and we were lying on the bed talking,

and my mother opened the door and said, oh, excuse me!

And closed the door.

And I was, like, frozen solid.

So I went downstairs.

She was on the phone.

And I said, Ma, we're going out.

She said, I'll call you back.

And she says, please sit down.

I've been wanting to talk to you.

Now you haven't mentioned any guys since Jimmy.

Or no, she said, I'm sorry I walked in on you.

I said, oh, we were just talking.

No problem.

She says, I know you haven't-- anyway,

we had this conversation, but the gist of it was I ended up

telling her, who knows what the future may bring?

Which I partly believed, and I knew

it would relieve her a little bit.

But she asked questions that were--

you know, she was trying, but she

would ask me questions that really were kind of insulting.

Like, well, don't you ever want to have

a permanent relationship?

And don't you want to have kids?

And you know, and I'm telling her,

well, it could be permanent and I could have kids.

But one of the most painful things to me about everything

is that I really wanted to have kids,

and I wanted to raise a kid with a--

I wanted to give birth to a child,

and I wanted to raise a child with another woman.

And it was unheard of then.

First of all, a public school teacher,

not married, being pregnant.

Forget it.

Now it's nothing.

Raising a child with another woman.

It's almost nothing now.

Not everywhere, but a lot.

And it's kind of funny.

I was in a peer counseling group with a bunch--

a gay peer-- a gay support group.

And I think every woman in that group--

lesbian support group-- has had a child except me.

And I was the one that was talking about that.

You know, they either had a child or adopted a child.

A lot of them adopted children.

But I wanted to do it with someone.

I took it as such a responsibility,

and I was so overwhelmed by my job

with papers outside the classroom.

I just-- and very isolated, feeling very isolated,

and actually being very isolated.

I have no family here.

They're all somewhere else.

And so I didn't really know how--

I didn't think it would be good for me or the child

to try to do it by myself.

So that's one of my big regrets in life,

not having raised a child.

And it was because of the times I was living in.

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

Was that different in California?

MARLENE GORDON: Everything was a little different there.

But you know, I had a two-year plan of being out there,

and turned into a three-year because I got a consulting job.

But I didn't feel very integrated there at all,

and I didn't find a gay community per se,

except for the fact that I did work on Harvey Milk's campaign

in Newham.

And that was another thing.

When he got shot and killed, it was

the first day I was back in a public school,

and someone told--

was talking about it in the faculty room.

I just went in the bathroom and cried.

It was like, I thought I was going to gay nirvana,

and when I arrived there, there was No On 6 campaign

in which any schoolworker, teacher or schoolworker accused

of being gay could be immediately fired.

And it was like, what?

EVELYN BAILEY: Was that here in Rochester?

MARLENE GORDON: No, no.

This is out in San--

California.

It was Senator John Briggs.

And you know, there was--

so Harvey was working on his campaign,

and we did defeat Prop 6.

But I'll never forget being in the auditorium of Mission High

School in the Mission District of San Francisco

when the big scream--

watching this debate where on one side

you had Harvey Milk and Sally Gearhart who

was a professor at San Francisco State, a news

commentator in the middle, and on the other side,

you have Senator John Briggs, who's bill it was,

and the minister.

And the debate was kind of crazy.

And the moderator at one point said to John Briggs, well,

Senator, how do you feel about the fact

that even Governor Reagan is against your bill?

And he said-- he paused.

He hesitated, and then he said, well,

he's with that Hollywood crowd.

And it was like-- yeah.

He was making no sense, and it was just--

it was so pathetic.

But anyway, so that was defeated.

And Harvey won, and we were all joyous.

So this was my first year--

I remember riding down Market Street on the top of a cable

car in the gay parade.

It was wonderful.

And you know, it was the days of Anita Bryant.

So it was Barkey, Briggs, and Bryant.

And you know, there was jubilation when he won

and the bill got defeated.

But when he was shot, you know, like in the movie,

I was there in all those scenes.

I mean, I was there during the candlelight vigil.

And then when Dan White got acquitted, people went crazy.

Went crazy that a supervisor and a mayor, of a major US city

could be shot and killed, and the guy gets off

with a Twinkie defense.

So you'd be in the supermarkets, and the Twinkies

were piled high.

There was a big boycott.

And I was riding down one of the 490-type roads

around San Francisco.

I think it was 101, but I'm not sure.

And there was a big billboard for Twinkies,

and someone had spray painted, eat these

and you can get away with murder.

And it was just--

I mean, the community was just devastated.

And it was also, when I first got there, it

was Guyana, which was a church that had

been founded in San Francisco.

The Zebra killings had just happened.

You know, there was so much violence.

It was such a mix of joy and grief.

It was such a tumultuous time.

And for me, being in a couple of earthquakes when I first

got-- you know, the earthquake symbolized

the whole thing for me.

I had, as I say, I had this illusion of gay nirvana,

and it wasn't so.

And you know, the community was just rocked.

So when the riots happened, I mean, you

could totally understand it.

Turning over police cars, setting them on fire.

I mean, the justice system hadn't worked at all.

So later when Dan White killed himself,

I wasn't at all surprised.

But that was-- you know, and that scared me.

It scared me a lot.

So here when Tim Mains was running as an openly gay man,

I was scared.

I didn't tell him that, but I had just been through that,

you know, when he ran for--

I guess it was for city council.

So I think of him as a very brave person.

Well, he is a very brave person.

But unfortunately, that experience

scared me to death, really.

It's so personal to me.

I was there.

EVELYN BAILEY: So you were teaching in California

at the time.

MARLENE GORDON: No, actually.

I had promised-- I was always teaching and going to school

for five years here first.

So I had my thirty graduate hours.

And I promised myself I would not go to school

or teach for a year.

So I sold sandwich--

I wanted to work in a cafe, but somehow

I ended up, because I talk to people--

(laughs)

When I opened up a checking account,

I was offered a job as a part-time teller, so I did it.

And talk about a high pressure job.

And it was right after Patty Hearst,

so we had to see all these bank robbery movies.

You know, my car was named Tanya.

And so you know, and I had to dress all up.

I had to get dressed up.

And the only good thing was Halloween,

because Halloween is wonderful in San Francisco.

And I thought of dressing as my Aunt Jenny in Brooklyn

and saying, what?

You're going to take money?

You couldn't give a little?

But I decided I shouldn't do that.

And then the other idea was dressing as a bank robber,

but I didn't think that was a good idea either.

So after a week in teller school--

two weeks in teller school, in the basement of a bank with no

windows with eleven out of thirteen people smoking,

including the teacher--

in those days, you couldn't-- it wasn't politically correct

to ask someone not to smoke, and watching Patty Hearst--

you know, you weren't thinking about stealing a penny.

You were worried you weren't going

to balance by the end of the day, you know?

Not that I wasn't balanced anyway, but you know,

at the time.

So yeah, so I did various little jobs the first year.

And then I became a resident.

I wanted to go back to school without going into debt again.

So I was going to either go to Berkeley

in this English social studies (unintelligible)

or to Santa Barbara, which had a very humanistic education

program.

And I went there to meet some professors whose book I

had read in Rochester.

So I decided it would be better to come back with a--

come back east with a degree from Berkeley,

so I did that program.

But I spent a quarter down in Santa Barbara.

It was wonderful.

EVELYN BAILEY: How long were you in California?

MARLENE GORDON: So I was there three years instead of two.

And I was going through a breakup--

in the first fall, I was in a couple of earthquakes,

there was No On 6, my parents split up,

my relationship fell apart.

I was not in a good way.

But I didn't believe in therapy, one-way therapy.

I was into that peer counseling, and I wasn't

into medication at the time.

So I was on function mode, though.

I mean, I had a full-time--

I got my master's degree from Berkeley,

and I had a full-time consulting job.

And you know-- and I came back.

EVELYN BAILEY: And when did you work on Harvey Milk's campaign?

When he ran for--

MARLENE GORDON: When I first got there,

he was running for town supervisor, and he won.

Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: And then two years--

how long after that--

MARLENE GORDON: Well, it was the following year

that he was killed.

He was-- I got there in '77, he was killed in '78.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

MARLENE GORDON: I believe--

it was the fall.

It was the fall, because it was the next school year,

and I believe it was something like October.

I don't remember the date, but it was early in the school

year, maybe six weeks into the school

year, something like that.

EVELYN BAILEY: Share with me a little bit

about your observations of other people

when the word came out that Harvey Milk was assassinated.

MARLENE GORDON: Well, in the school they were discussing it.

And they were upset.

You know, I think he was well respected.

But as I say, I didn't get in a discussion.

I went in the bathroom and cried.

But the teacher whose class I was supposed

to be going into and doing a lesson

must have realized, because she said, you know, you don't have

to go teach if you don't want.

I said, no, that's OK.

And as I said, you know, the gay people in the city who were--

it was just a feeling of mourning.

It was just terrible.

And as I said, the city was already

shaken up by Guyana and the Zebra killings.

It was just-- a lot of stuff was happening.