Audio Interview, Marvin Ritzenthaler, January 31, 2012

  • EVELYN BAILEY: You and Joseph Johns are good friends.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Right.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: I understand.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: For many years, yes.
  • Not that we see a lot of each other socially.
  • We get together for dinners and little--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: We can connect off of the internet,
  • well, like, any time we want to be.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
  • Right.
  • And you were involved in the GLF--
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Well, I was involved because I
  • was coming out at the time.
  • I was approximately twenty-seven-years-old.
  • And after college, military, and then
  • working at the Security Trust for a year, and then
  • Eastman Kodak probably for about two years, two and half years,
  • and I was really questioning my own sexuality.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: And I had a wonderful therapist
  • that I went to.
  • She was strong.
  • And it was in a matter of just weeks,
  • I was at peace with everything.
  • But the amazing thing was to try to make some social connection
  • to--
  • and they certainly did-- they didn't--
  • the therapist did not want to promote where to go, but--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: But she would ask me,
  • did you-- have you found anything in literature?
  • The closest I could--
  • anything I could find a reference to it
  • was a Mattachine Society in Buffalo.
  • And I thought, oh my god, I've got
  • to drive all the way to Buffalo.
  • So finally, she gave me the--
  • I believe it was called The Gay Liberation
  • Office that was in the old firehouse on Monroe Avenue.
  • Up in the back.
  • I remember going up the stairs, meeting with somebody,
  • and so that was my first intro.
  • And the fellow said, "Gee, there's
  • going to be a dance at the U of R."
  • It was something quick like that.
  • And so went to the student union, the old Todd Union--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: --for a weekend.
  • And, of course, that's where they had their meetings.
  • So I would go to the meetings.
  • I can't say I got to--
  • that frequently, but I was there a lot,
  • because certainly it was the time I met Joseph Johns.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: What year would this be?
  • Do you remember?
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Well, yeah, I can put it around--
  • it's got to be 1970.
  • Yeah.
  • Only because I could tell when the time came when I was not
  • dealing well with the fact that I was still dating women
  • and it was--
  • I was totally frustrated with any intimacy or closeness
  • in my relationships, as well as they were.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: So that's why I
  • when I could remember 1969, it was
  • that fall, when things came to a crisis, when I broke up
  • with somebody.
  • So--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Were you born in Rochester?
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yes.
  • Yep.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: OK.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Dutchtown.
  • Westside.
  • Yeah.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And when you were growing up,
  • did you have any sense that you--
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Oh, of course
  • you do, but you're in a Catholic school.
  • You're in a Catholic parish.
  • You're in a Catholic neighborhood,
  • to a great extent.
  • And then after eighth grade of graduating, instead of probably
  • doing what I thought I would like to do.
  • You know, there's a lot of pressure from nuns and priests,
  • not family, but I went to the seminary, St. Andrew's,
  • for the high school program.
  • And then, of course, you just evolved into the college
  • program there, as well as St. Bernard's Seminary on Lake
  • Avenue And then I was starting the last four year
  • segment of theology, and that's when I left,
  • and that was the fall of 1965.
  • So I had all my education right here,
  • and it wasn't really until living at St. Bernard's,
  • and then, of course, living with away with the military for two
  • years during the Vietnam build-up,
  • that I was really out of Rochester other than that, so.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So this coming out process,
  • you mentioned something about making social connections.
  • Before you got linked up with the Gay Liberation Front,
  • I mean, what were you finding out there?
  • Were you finding anything?
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Oh no, I wasn't.
  • You certainly couldn't find anything to read in a library.
  • God, I'm sure books-- if there were
  • any definite books on sexuality, they were put away someplace.
  • So even growing up in--
  • I mean all those years in the seminary, sexuality was--
  • it was denied.
  • Truly denied.
  • When it did surface, it was usually
  • brushed aside by a spiritual director or a confessor.
  • I mean to this day, I'm still amazed that--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: The church is the way it is.
  • Yeah.
  • Yeah.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah.
  • I mean even today there's no honesty about sexuality.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: No.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah, so anyway.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: When you went into the military--
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yes.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: --was there--
  • were you able to--
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yes, I--
  • to cope?
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Cope.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Oh, absolutely.
  • First of all, all the years I was in the seminary, there
  • were gay people.
  • It was just the fact that you didn't talk about it.
  • I personally didn't act on it, but I knew people who did.
  • So, and of course, if you did get caught in that--
  • any homosexual act, you were immediately dismissed.
  • No questions asked.
  • Definitely, I mean, it was archaic.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: So now in the military,
  • of course when you take your physical
  • and you fill out the papers, which is pre being inducted,
  • right there it asks you do you have--
  • are you attracted to people of your sex?
  • And all you do is check yes and you would--
  • you probably wouldn't have gone home that day.
  • You would have been kept overnight someplace
  • and evaluated by a psychiatrist.
  • And then they would have figured out
  • if you were really trying to pull the wool over their eyes
  • or whatever.
  • Because I remember we went up with about thirty guys
  • from Rochester for the physical in Buffalo.
  • And one of them didn't come back with us.
  • And that was the whisper in the bus, that, well, he was being--
  • he was staying back.
  • He was going to be evaluated.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Do you think someone
  • like him was checking the yes box to get out of the Army?
  • Because were you being drafted at the time?
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: I was being drafted.
  • Oh, certainly.
  • I would not have chosen to go into the military service.
  • Absolutely not.
  • It was the big build-up.
  • And when I came out of the seminary,
  • I lost my clerical divinity student deferment.
  • So I knew when I walked out of there that I was stepping right
  • into a firestorm.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Sure.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Only because
  • of the fact that no reserve units had any openings.
  • People had been piling into them for several years.
  • And it was a very peculiar period.
  • And I tell people now there was never
  • any training for being a CO, conscientious objector.
  • And you would think, being a divinity student,
  • there would have some discussion weighing that.
  • But the Catholic church, on a whole,
  • supported the government in the war of Vietnam.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: They did.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: I'm just going to close this door.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I could have got it.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: The screeching--
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: It really wasn't until Bishop Sheen
  • actually came here.
  • Of course, I was out of the seminary
  • and I was in the service when he came here to be the bishop,
  • that he actually sent a letter that
  • was read from the pulpits denouncing the Vietnam War.
  • And it didn't sit very well with a lot of Catholic people,
  • because, you know.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So any secret gay society
  • in the military that you knew of?
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yes, I did.
  • Especially the California guys who were on the East Coast
  • from Camp Lejeune in North Carolina.
  • They just didn't even stay in the barracks on weekends.
  • They just, I don't know, somebody always had a car
  • and they just went to the ocean and had a motel
  • and had a good time and came back.
  • As long as he didn't have any responsibilities or duty
  • at the base over the weekend.
  • So and I can remember one very nice young man who
  • was in my barracks who said, "Would you like to come home
  • with me for that weekend?"
  • Well, I would loved to, but I stayed put.
  • Yeah, I didn't act on anything there.
  • So you've got to remember, my training was family,
  • and seminary.
  • Everything was discipline, discipline, and self-denial.
  • And basically what happens, if you go for so many years
  • without expressing yourself sexually,
  • and intimately, with somebody it comes to a boiling point
  • where you don't function well with anything you're doing.
  • And when I got to that point, living here in Rochester,
  • still living with my family.
  • My parents were congenial to live with them.
  • But you just are not living your own life.
  • So anyways, therapy was great.
  • I got myself an apartment. (Laughs)
  • Many, many great friends.
  • So you can't imagine what it was like to meet
  • people who are interested in music, or antiques,
  • or art instead of the majority of people
  • that you spent your time with.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So once you started basically coming out
  • of the closet, getting involved with at the University
  • and what not, what then were you discovering
  • as far as a community?
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Oh, both men and women.
  • And of course a lot of them were students
  • at the University of Rochester that were in the Gay Chapter.
  • Karen Hagberg, of course, was always just magnanimous.
  • I loved listening to her talk.
  • She'd invite-- many times, a couple of times anyways,
  • I was back at her house when she lived over off of Park Avenue.
  • Rutgers Street, I believe it was.
  • Sitting around, having coffee, and chatting, and talking.
  • It was really wonderful.
  • I mean, lesbian women and gay men.
  • Wow.
  • And I loved them all, although there were some opinions
  • that I thought were a little bit too far out for me.
  • (LAUGHS)
  • EVELYN BAILEY: What were those meetings like at the U of R?
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Well, it was a big room
  • and people were either in chairs or sitting on the floor,
  • around in a big circle.
  • And there was a structure.
  • I can't tell you who some of the officers were.
  • I imagine Karen Hagberg was one of them.
  • Some of those names that if I hear them,
  • I know who the people are.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Well, it would have been RJ Alcala.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yes, well, of course, RJ.
  • Yes.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Larry Fine.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: You know, I've heard Larry Fine's name.
  • I know I would know if I saw a picture of him,
  • but I can't place him with a face.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Bob Osborne.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah, that's
  • another one I can't quite remember.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And then there would
  • have been a Jewish fellow, who has since died.
  • His name won't come to my head.
  • Michael Robertson and Whitey LeBlanc
  • were members of the group.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yes.
  • Yes, I've known Whitey many, many years.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: They were community people.
  • RJ, and Larry, and Karen, and Patti Evans, and--
  • were students.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Right.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Marshall Goldman.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: I can remember the name,
  • but I can't place him.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: They were students
  • and then the people who came from Rochester
  • were probably Vince DiSchino, Whitey--
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Whitey's friend, I see them--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Jay Baker.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Jay Baker.
  • Yeah.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Now we're going back.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: You know all these people?
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I know the names.
  • I haven't met them all.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: And, of course--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Sorry.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Go ahead.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: They were basically a give-and-take
  • and people--
  • I can't remember any structure where anybody--
  • any particular meetings or things
  • that were going on where people would have to get organized.
  • But I'm sure that did go on.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Were you at the meeting at which the women--
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yes.
  • Yes, I was.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: --kind of--
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: You've got to remember now, I am coming--
  • I'm just getting used to everybody.
  • And foibles, you know, personalities,
  • and characters some of them.
  • And so when this blew up, I was respectful of it.
  • And it happened.
  • And I can remember--
  • I think if I had any regret it was the fact that I wasn't
  • going to see Karen Hagberg.
  • Because she was always fun to chat with or be in a group
  • where she was chatting.
  • Karen, you know, she's--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: What happened at that meeting?
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: I guess I didn't--
  • it didn't scar me.
  • And of course, I was very open to the fact
  • too that they may have had very legitimate beefs.
  • So of course, you can imagine, here I wasn't even
  • a straight man, I was a gay man, who had a very feminine side,
  • so I thought, oh my god.
  • You know, it was a surprise.
  • Yeah.
  • I don't know how many years they stayed really separated,
  • but eventually they folded--
  • everybody folded back in together.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Can you can share with us
  • anything that you remember about leading up to the breakup?
  • I mean, and well, you know, what was being talked about?
  • What was being argued about?
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: No, I just--
  • I just can't.
  • Some of those issues.
  • Whether it was some of the things were very personal.
  • Of course, it was the feminist movement that was starting
  • and of course the women were trying
  • to deal with men on many of the same issues.
  • And then many of the same issues weren't the same for them
  • as they were for men.
  • So I can't think of anything specific that one person said.
  • Some people were very, very adamant about it.
  • But I didn't see Karen that way, but she definitely went along,
  • so I wouldn't judge where she--
  • I wouldn't want to say where she was on the whole issue.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And her partner at the time I think
  • was Kate Duru.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: I can't remember her.
  • Yeah, she--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And she was, I believe,
  • one of the more vocal--
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yes.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: --women.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yes.
  • There were vocal women, but there were vocal men, too.
  • And I suppose that I was just as judgmental
  • of some of the vocal men with ideas they had as some
  • of the women.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: When this is all happening,
  • where did you see your place in all of this?
  • As far as--
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Well, I didn't
  • see it was going to diminish me, personally,
  • and what was happening for me with my friends, and so,
  • and, of course, over time, very few of those people--
  • you know, like I could think of Joseph Johns
  • is the only one I can really think of it that I'm still
  • in touch with.
  • So, he still talks about it, a little bit of drama.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
  • He seems to have been very touched
  • by that whole experience.
  • I think he was a leader in the group, or at least
  • led some of the meetings.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yes, he did.
  • Yeah, he did moderate meetings.
  • Yeah.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Were there--
  • do you recall if there were people from the University
  • who came to those meetings who were not--
  • like, I don't want to say spies, I don't want to say--
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: I have no doubt
  • that there were, because of the era, definitely.
  • Matter of fact, it was said, and I don't know who said it,
  • but it was certainly something that was mentioned,
  • that when we were forced off the campus
  • the reason was the University administration was not
  • happy to be having gay lesbian women meeting.
  • But I think we had broken up probably around the same time.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: They weren't happy with them coming
  • and then they were bringing people from the community.
  • So there was one incident, you know,
  • they had this weekend with the dance.
  • I didn't realize the dance and the art show
  • were all that same weekend.
  • They had a gay art show right there in Todd Union.
  • So Joseph Johns, I remember driving.
  • And Joseph tells me that our friend, Bruce Brooks,
  • was there and John Adams.
  • John who lives on the West Coast now.
  • But what I do remember, we went on like a Sunday afternoon.
  • And we went in and we looked at the art
  • that people had contributed.
  • And there were three young youths in there
  • who were giggling and poking each other.
  • And I didn't think--
  • I didn't pay much attention to them.
  • But they were not students.
  • They were from off the campus.
  • They had just walked in off River Boulevard.
  • We didn't pay a bit of attention to them.
  • And I just thought they were immature.
  • But when we left and we walked out,
  • we got to the main sidewalk to walk down River Boulevard
  • to get to our car.
  • And all of a sudden, this car came speeding very fast
  • and things flew by us.
  • They were rocks.
  • It was about like this size.
  • And those kids went out and got in their car with rocks
  • and they waited for us to come out.
  • We were the only people in there.
  • And they threw them.
  • That was very upsetting to John Adams.
  • He would never go again to any gay meeting or anything.
  • Joseph told me this.
  • I didn't realize it had affected him that much.
  • But remember one of the stones actually
  • hit an automobile that was parked on the Boulevard.
  • It had to damage it.
  • So whether the University was monitoring
  • any of this, seeing any of this, and said,
  • hey, this is something we just don't want this here anymore.
  • And I don't even know who is the administration at that time.
  • Was it Dr. Sproul?
  • EVELYN BAILEY: I'm not sure.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: It was very conservative.
  • The University at that time was very withdrawn
  • from the community.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: You know, it's not like it is today.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: When they left the U of R campus, did
  • you move with them to--
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Oh, I undoubtedly did, certainly.
  • Yeah.
  • I wasn't too long--
  • it wasn't too long before I was in a relationship with somebody
  • and that sort of took me out of circulation as far as going
  • around in that--
  • to meetings and stuff like that.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Did you go to the bars?
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Oh, yeah, I would
  • go to bars to dance, and socialize, and meet somebody
  • there.
  • yeah, but not on a regular basis.
  • (Laughs) I used to hate to have to hang my clothes off
  • in the garage, or the basement, to get the smoke out of them.
  • But they were fun.
  • I mean, happy hours.
  • It was-- gosh.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And what were some of the bars?
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Well, I got in once or twice
  • to Jim's when it was on Court Street.
  • And, of course, that was all torn down
  • and they built maybe Xerox office building.
  • And then, of course, I remember Jim's being
  • over on North Street, which is now something else.
  • Liberty Pole Way.
  • So in those days, then there was one on St. Paul by Hawkeye
  • that opened up quite a few years ago.
  • And it didn't go very long, but it was nice, new place.
  • I can't even tell you the name.
  • The bars in those days, Jim's would be the main one
  • that I recall.
  • I remember a friend, years ago, but years after those early
  • coming out days, he took me to a women's bar
  • on South Avenue, and to meet some of his lesbian friends.
  • And he told me that they're not going
  • to like us coming in here.
  • And so he had me scared the hell.
  • Well, I had a heck of good time.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: It was the Riverview, probably.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah, it was the Riverview.
  • Thank you.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Do you have a sense, Marvin,
  • of what the city of Rochester environment
  • was in terms of being gay or in terms of being--
  • and I know you weren't an activist,
  • but there were certainly components of the Gay Alliance
  • and the GLF that were.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Well, the big thing
  • that I witnessed was Charlie Schiano, who was the lone--
  • Lonesome Charlie, he called himself,
  • the Republican on the City Council.
  • Were you here in those days?
  • EVELYN BAILEY: No.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: OK, well, it
  • was a big fight over the CETA grants, government grants.
  • And, of course, the Gay Alliance did qualify to apply.
  • So I believe it was the Empty Closet went for grant money.
  • There was a big hullabaloo over that.
  • So Charlie was going to be speaking at a City Council
  • meeting.
  • And so a friend called me.
  • And I was down at Kodak working.
  • And he said, would you like to come and be in the audience?
  • So I got there even before anybody started filtering in,
  • and I was just sitting there reading a book.
  • So that was something to see that night.
  • I mean, literally, people coming in--
  • Bible thumpers, where they're thumping on their Bible.
  • I can't even remember who would the mayor
  • have been at that time.
  • I can remember year he threatened
  • to clear the whole council room, because of the--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: It wouldn't have been--
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Ryan?
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Ryan.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: No, not in that--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yes, it was.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: That early?
  • EVELYN BAILEY: It was Ryan.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: It seems like it was Ryan.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: What date are we talking about?
  • EVELYN BAILEY: '77.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: '77.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
  • That was the first CETA funding.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: 1977.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: But I remember
  • because I got there early a lady came in and sat with me.
  • Had a pleasant conversation.
  • I have on a sports coat and slacks,
  • because I've come from work.
  • And we were having a very nice conversation.
  • And it filled up, and it filled up, my friends got in there
  • and they sat next to me.
  • Well, she picked up on what--
  • you know, when one of the first applause was for a speaker,
  • she picked up who we were supporting,
  • she got up, in that crowded place where
  • there was no chairs left, and she just
  • like that got up, turned, looked, and walked away.
  • That's how-- you couldn't even sit
  • next to a gay person or somebody who
  • was supporting a gay program.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And how did you feel about that?
  • How did you respond to that?
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Well my response was what--
  • there was nothing you could say to her, because there
  • was a meeting going on.
  • And she was just getting up and getting over.
  • Somebody immediately came and sat down,
  • because who wanted to sit for this--
  • or stand around along the walls.
  • So, but when we left, the two friends and I,
  • and for some reason we didn't take the stairs.
  • We decided to take the elevators.
  • And I believe his name was-- was it Fletcher Brothers was
  • one of the ringleaders of the antagonists
  • and anti-CETA funds for our program.
  • Well, they were just absolutely rabid people.
  • I mean, just to observe them.
  • You talk about really people are crazy.
  • (Laughs) So, all I know is, I could tell
  • they were the two ministers.
  • They were standing on the side with lots of their supporters
  • along the wall.
  • And there were children.
  • They brought children with them too.
  • Well, they happened to get in the elevator going down
  • with us.
  • And I can still see this boy, about ten-years-old, complete
  • silence in the elevator.
  • He looks at me and he said, "If you were my son,
  • I'd wish you dead."
  • That was with two ministers, and one of them being his father,
  • right there.
  • We couldn't-- we couldn't believe it.
  • You know, isn't that Christian?
  • And to bring a child up.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: And that's what he's hearing from his father.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah, to bring a child.
  • And we walked out of there and said, "My god, what are world's
  • out there."
  • Yeah.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Did you ever go to another--
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Oh, no.
  • They wouldn't-- that wouldn't keep me from going.
  • I had spent so many years in a Catholic education,
  • Catholic environment, and I had never even seen hatred
  • like this in my faith tradition.
  • I'm sure there are people who expressed that, too.
  • Were misguided.
  • So, yeah.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I'd like to know where that boy is now.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: You what?
  • Oh.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I'd like to know where that little boy is now.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: I've often thought
  • where is that boy today.
  • And think of it, he'd be forty-years-old easily.
  • God.
  • You wonder what burden he's had to carry or had to get rid of.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So let's back up a little bit.
  • When the Gay Liberation Front split,
  • and you kind of went off with the men, tell me,
  • what happened next?
  • What were the primary goals or missions that--
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah, once again I never
  • registered much of that myself, even in a time--
  • or a time frame or a progress made with some issue.
  • Because for me, it was I was there and after--
  • when I did go to a meeting, it'd go off in somebody's house.
  • Or you might go out and have a drink at the bar.
  • And it was social.
  • For me, it was social.
  • So I wasn't really seeing it as a political--
  • although I was certainly aware things were happening.
  • So we really weren't--
  • I can't even think of any issues that got a lot of publicity
  • back in that time.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Were there issues with the police?
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Well, they were a presence, definitely.
  • I never felt intimidated by them.
  • I saw them come into Jim's bar, especially--
  • I mean, I remember them coming into North Street
  • and coming in, being there.
  • And I had no idea--
  • I never saw anybody arrested.
  • I think that would have all been pre my being out
  • in the early '70s.
  • Still was going on probably.
  • Yeah
  • Now, as far as things that were going on out
  • in public, that shouldn't be, you know,
  • sex acts in parks and stuff like that.
  • I don't know anything about that,
  • except that I knew there was patrols.
  • I can remember, it was almost embarrassing.
  • The police had a sort of a liaison, started to have
  • a liaison, with the community.
  • And they alerted the Alliance that the problem down in Durand
  • Eastman.
  • And to announce, they show publish it, and tell people.
  • They said they even had people in a car on that road
  • and said, don't go down there.
  • The police are down there and there will be arrests.
  • These people still went down.
  • I just-- where I'm coming from, I just
  • could not understand that.
  • So I really don't--
  • I really can't say from experience
  • about police arrests.
  • But I had a very interesting experience.
  • It happens I knew a fellow.
  • Indirectly, our families knew each other.
  • And even though they didn't socialize that much,
  • we crossed paths.
  • My mother worked for the company where the family owned,
  • and I would see some of these kids occasionally.
  • Well, we grow up and I know of young Frank Carroll
  • Jr., whose nickname was Doozer because his father was
  • Frank Carroll, Sr. My mother worked for him.
  • So I'm getting ready to fly to San Francisco on my way
  • to Vietnam.
  • And I have a layover in the airport.
  • My mother says, "Call Frank's son.
  • He's in the Air Force in San Francisco."
  • I get off the plane.
  • I give him a call.
  • I reach him.
  • He's in his office on the base.
  • He says, "Stay right where you are.
  • I know right where you are."
  • I told him how I sat at some bar in the airport.
  • So Frank Jr. comes and we had three, four drinks.
  • And when I got on that plane, I was--
  • I just slept.
  • But we had a wonderful conversation.
  • I didn't know anything about him.
  • But we just had a great rapport.
  • I'm not out.
  • I don't know anything about young Frank.
  • So I get back.
  • It's about five years later, I go to a party in Brighton.
  • Taken by another other friend.
  • There's Frank.
  • He's actually live-- sharing this apartment in Brighton
  • with a fellow.
  • And I said, "Frank, you remember me?"
  • He couldn't place me.
  • So we played a game.
  • So I told him who I was and, of course,
  • we both laughed, because here we--
  • he was gay in California in the Air Force.
  • But I was in the Marines and I was heading to Vietnam.
  • And, you know, I didn't know my sexual--
  • I hadn't accepted my sexuality at that point in life.
  • So time goes on.
  • Young Frank moves to California.
  • And every time he'd come back to Rochester,
  • he'd stop and see me at my home in Brighton.
  • And we'd have some drinks, and talk,
  • and he used to say, "Oh, sell this house.
  • Quit your job at Kodak.
  • Come out to West Hollywood.
  • He said, it's just wonderful.
  • Everybody's gay, and you know, it's not--
  • it's not--" and I said, "Oh, yeah, sure, Frank."
  • But Frank tells me a story, it sheds insight into the police.
  • His father not only was Secretary Treasurer
  • of his company that the family owned.
  • But his father was police chief in the town of Gates.
  • Republican.
  • The police, he tells me this later on,
  • the police had informed his father
  • by taking license plates numbers and tracking
  • who these people were.
  • His father found out.
  • And he said his father called him down in the basement,
  • because he wanted to talk to him about something.
  • And his father said, "You know, have you
  • been going to the gay bars that have been reported to me?"
  • And he said, "Yeah."
  • And instead of discussing it, and he
  • said his father just hauled off and punched him.
  • Can you imagine?
  • I mean, just the pain of him telling me that.
  • I thought, god, my father--
  • my father would never have handled anything like that.
  • It's just amazing.
  • Was never-- so there is where police informed on people who
  • were not doing anything wrong.
  • So.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: But you saw that same reaction
  • in that city hall chamber?
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah.
  • Yeah.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And when--
  • what effect did that have on you?
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Well, it's sobering.
  • But at the same token, you cannot let that consume you.
  • I mean, you can't.
  • You can't let it turn you inside out to the point
  • that you can't function.
  • But you have to be very much aware of the fact
  • that there are people, even today, that
  • don't have any qualms of conscience
  • of doing harmful things.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Were you afraid after that point?
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: No, I can't say I was.
  • I was always cautious though.
  • I was always guarded, definitely.
  • Definitely always guarded.
  • Yeah.
  • At the time that Frank told me the story, young Frank,
  • about his father, and of course his father
  • is dead at this time.
  • And gee, just amazing.
  • So I can't say I was scared from hearing it.
  • But I was disappointed having known Mr. Carroll.
  • And my mother, having worked for him in the office.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
  • Were you and your friends after that city council meeting--
  • obviously, you were cautious, but did it
  • change the way in which you lived
  • your quote unquote "gay life?"
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: No.
  • No.
  • No.
  • Just made me more determined that I
  • wasn't going to back down.
  • I wasn't going to be ashamed of who I was.
  • Really, wow.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: How about your work environment at Kodak?
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Well I worked with wonderful people
  • and even though I didn't hide anything,
  • they knew I lived with a gentlemen.
  • So it was--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Was here a Lambda Network?
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah, it was just starting
  • and it probably was in existence the last ten years
  • that I was there.
  • See, I've been gone sixteen years now.
  • And I left I was fifty-two.
  • So, and I wasn't part of it.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: But--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: It would have started around '93.
  • '92-'93.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Oh, did it?
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah, that's right.
  • It was relatively new.
  • Yeah.
  • Yeah.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: You know, we
  • mentioned earlier David Cosell.
  • Is he still at Kodak by any--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, he's in Atlanta.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: In Atlanta.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Wonderful.
  • Yeah.
  • Yeah.
  • Yeah.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: He was hoping to retire last year,
  • but every year he goes to retire, they--
  • it's like you said, they changed the points or whatever,
  • so it's like, oh, I've got to stay another year.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So then through the rest
  • of the '70s and the 1980s, and just talk to me about your life
  • and the kind of things you were involved with.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Oh, well, gee, of course my partner,
  • and now spouse as of October 1st,
  • Steve Juros we've been together twenty-four years.
  • So I had a relationship for six years from basically 1972
  • to '78 with with Rob Goodling.
  • You might know Rob.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yes, so then it
  • was a few years in between that I was on my own.
  • I lived in Brighton.
  • And Rob lived with me in Brighton for a period of time,
  • but he eventually moved back into the city.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Were you at Kodak still?
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: I was with Kodak,
  • yes, I was with Kodak all those working years.
  • Twenty-seven.
  • So, god, yeah.
  • And it wasn't a great environment the last nine
  • years, only because there was constant downsizing.
  • And it seemed that there was one time every six months
  • to a year I had a new manager.
  • And some of them were clueless what you did.
  • You were in another building.
  • But they were trying to justify why
  • some people were managers at putting more people under them.
  • And then we had the business philosophy training session
  • every so often.
  • That was our philosophy or something,
  • you had to come in on weekends to go to special training.
  • So it was not a pleasant environment.
  • And then we had--
  • they had contract people coming in.
  • We had some wonderful contract people work in our department.
  • They were smart.
  • They learned fast, because we were in computer systems.
  • They were such an asset to us.
  • More so than some people that we had
  • and you couldn't get them to do another darn thing
  • or you couldn't get rid of them.
  • And the contract people, their two years would be up,
  • and they'd think they were going to get hired.
  • And they were done.
  • I mean these corporate mentality--
  • these decisions.
  • I remember going to a boss and saying, why would
  • we get rid of this--
  • Why would we get rid of this talented person?
  • Why did you-- why did you make this decision?
  • And she said to me, "I did not want to.
  • I was told I had to."
  • And so when that starts to happen,
  • you realize that you're going down a long slope.
  • I just felt as--
  • when I was working there many years ago,
  • that there was something going out of Kodak that was--
  • did not bode well for it.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Were you and your partner in--
  • did you go to gay events?
  • Did you go to the Gay Men's Chorus?
  • Did you go to the Sweetheart Ball?
  • Did you go to the HPA when that was--
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Oh, yes.
  • Definitely. -- We've yes, we've been to many of those things,
  • yes.
  • Can't say we've ever been to a Sweetheart Ball or a Pride
  • event here in the Convention Center.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: OK.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: But we've been on the bus
  • to Albany twice to see the State Assembly and State
  • Senator, which I always found absolutely frustrating.
  • But you had to make a presence.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And did Steve also work at Kodak?
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: No, Steve worked
  • for the New York State Department
  • of Developmentally Disabled.
  • That's on Westfall Road.
  • It's now called the Finger Lakes DDSO.
  • So.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Wow.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah, he was there thirty-one years,
  • maybe.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Wow.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: That's a very heavy job, I think.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: I mean--
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Well, he started out
  • as a Special Ed teacher.
  • Then he was a BOCES dir--
  • he directed some of the teachers and programs.
  • And I think it was Suspend Support BOCES many years ago.
  • And they might be BOCES-1 out there.
  • I'm not sure what that number is.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Two.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Two, OK.
  • And then he basically left the area to go to Georgia.
  • He thought he wanted some community life.
  • That was very attractive to him.
  • When he got down there, he realized was a big mistake.
  • And he burned all those bridges, so he went back home in Albany
  • to live with his parents.
  • And it took about six months, and he got a job offer
  • from State to come in.
  • So he came back to Rochester and continued on to work.
  • So his state service was broken up.
  • He was in North Country, Canton, New York,
  • working with the BOCES programs there.
  • And of course, he started out as Special Ed,
  • but when he was actually finished with the State,
  • he was doing training.
  • Bringing everybody up.
  • You know, there are so many state regulations.
  • As far as what people had to--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: When, or did you, come out your parents?
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Oh.
  • Yeah. (Laughs)
  • EVELYN BAILEY: I mean just a--
  • another blip in the--
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: My mother was--
  • I used to go home, and if my father
  • wasn't working on a weekend at Kodak,
  • I had lunch with them both every Saturday.
  • And I was in and out anyways because I wasn't far away.
  • We always had a great relationship.
  • One day, one Saturday afternoon, I
  • was just there with my mother.
  • And I said, "Gee, Mom, I've got to go.
  • And I've got to pick up a friend, Bruce."
  • And I said, "We're going to an antique show."
  • And my mother is sitting across the table like you,
  • and she said, "You seem to be going out with a lot of men
  • lately."
  • (Laughs) And I said, "Yes, Mom, I am."
  • And that's where I left it.
  • So, it was so funny though.
  • She accepted it over time.
  • And never, never said anything negative.
  • But one time, she said, "ell, I always thought you were."
  • Mothers know a lot.
  • She knew.
  • And she said, "I hoped you weren't.
  • I hoped you weren't."
  • But it wasn't any great--
  • she had met many gay friends.
  • she very fond of Rob for all those years.
  • Yeah.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And your father?
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Well, my dad was indirect in many ways.
  • And he was always there, always analyzing everything.
  • When he would find something out,
  • it was already pretty well made up his mind.
  • So, it was one time we were at a cocktail party, mostly
  • gay people.
  • It was after a recital at the Eastman School of Music
  • and it was at somebody's house.
  • And I was friends with the fellow
  • that done his doctoral recital.
  • So, it was full.
  • I mean, that professor that was there was gay,
  • and lots of gay people.
  • And there were two gay women.
  • They got talking to my mom and dad.
  • And this is crowded and loud.
  • So they had just come back on the Queen Elizabeth
  • from Europe and they said they had gone and they'd had a--
  • they celebrated doing this trip because they
  • had a union ceremony.
  • And of course, I hear them talking to my--
  • and so, as they filtered around the room, I said to my mother,
  • "Now, you know what a union ceremony is, don't you?"
  • And she said, "Certainly I do."
  • And I said, "Well, well then, you
  • understand there's a lot of gay people here
  • that are friends of mine."
  • She said, "Sure, they're wonderful."
  • And she said, "Don't tell your father."
  • So, now my father is standing right where you are.
  • And he just goes, winks, like to say, ah, your mother,
  • she's too much.
  • But you know, they were from an era
  • where sexual things, especially something like homosexuality,
  • didn't get discussed.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Wow.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Gee.
  • I can understand where they were coming from.
  • So they were learning a lot slower than those of us who
  • were coming out or were out in and were
  • accepting our sexuality.
  • So, but I really did have very supportive parents.
  • Never, never a moment of issue or upset or anything.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.
  • Was there one particular incident, or event,
  • or situation that you can think of that maybe
  • really had a significant impact of who you had become?
  • Let me ask that a little bit more clearly.
  • In the years and the coming out experience over
  • the years with the Gay Alliance and whatever,
  • anything come to mind, a particular event,
  • that that really kind of hit home with you?
  • Had an impact on who you are today
  • or had an impact on your outlook on life back then?
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Hm.
  • I don't see anything--
  • nothing jumps out that I would say put a positive spin on.
  • There were all these things that add up
  • that were negative towards you.
  • While they didn't make me negative,
  • they certainly were moments of awakening.
  • But I mean, I can't say any particular individual
  • or events.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Let's go back to the very first time
  • that you walked into a meeting for the Gay Liberation.
  • What was going through your head?
  • And what were you hoping to find?
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah, well, I mean, you've got to remember,
  • I had never been--
  • I had been around gay people, even in the seminary,
  • but nobody ever admitted they were gay.
  • So I mean, I'm basically going into a world
  • where there were people who were happy to be gay and lesbian,
  • and knew it, and weren't going to back down for anybody.
  • In some respects, it probably was like I was walk--
  • I was going into a subculture, a cafe society,
  • whatever you want to call it.
  • It was exciting in many respects.
  • It was-- you had to--
  • there was a mystery to it and there was--
  • because of the fact that it was clandestine,
  • it was an illicit world.
  • But I didn't fear that.
  • Not at all.
  • Because what I had been through with being depressed, and being
  • alone, and not having intimacy in my life,
  • even though I had a wonderful family, that was really scary.
  • To think I would live my life like that.
  • Or get to feel like that.
  • Being depressed.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So at the end of that first meeting and you're
  • on your way home, how did you feel?
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Oh, wonderful.
  • Yeah.
  • Yeah.
  • Definitely.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Did you have any kind of vision, then,
  • about this is where I can--
  • this is the next direction I can take in my life.
  • Right.
  • Did it answer questions for you?
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Oh, yeah, I think
  • it answered a lot of questions.
  • Only the fact that I was--
  • I continued to meet people and socialize with them.
  • And I don't mean jumping in or out of bed.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: No.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Definitely not.
  • Because it was just wonderful to be able to go
  • places and do things.
  • I mean, I had my relationships.
  • Don't get me wrong.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Back then, in your mind,
  • why did you think something like the Gay Liberation Front
  • was even an important thing to have for this community?
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Why did I think-- oh, my god.
  • You know, I just remember how isolated I was.
  • And couldn't find out anything about my sexuality.
  • I didn't know whom I'd even mention it to,
  • because God forbid you'd be taken off
  • to some horrible place or yelled at.
  • I didn't feel safe--
  • outside of the confessional, I did not
  • feel safe bringing up anything.
  • In the seminary, you had a regular confessor.
  • I don't know why you--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: --you had a regular confessor,
  • because most of them were old priests who came over
  • from Aquinas and heard confessions and, you know,
  • and I remember going to confession
  • after somebody had been coming into my room
  • at St. Bernard Seminary.
  • A man who's still a good friend.
  • I was extremely uncomfortable with it.
  • He was taking liberties.
  • And, of course, if he got caught in that room,
  • we both would have been dismissed immediately,
  • because it was a strict rule.
  • You never stepped over the threshold
  • of another student's room.
  • They never told you why, but that was why.
  • Because it's--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Was this an older man or same age?
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: He was my classmate.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Classmate.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah.
  • So I was very upset about it and I actually told my friend,
  • I said, "You can't be getting into bed with me."
  • So I mentioned it to my confessor,
  • thinking I would get some direction, some help.
  • He said, "Oh, don't worry about that."
  • He said, "It's nothing.: I'm ready to have
  • a nervous breakdown (laughs) and my spiritual confessor
  • says, "Oh."
  • So, what do I do?
  • I go to see the very spiritual director of the seminary,
  • that's his role, his position.
  • And have a chat with him.
  • He's very nice.
  • And he said, "I will call the gentleman in
  • and I will talk to him and I'll tell him you're very upset."
  • That was the last-- my friend did
  • come to apologize for building up all this anxiety in me.
  • And so, I don't know how we got to talking about that.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Well--
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: I mean, so getting back
  • to this organization.
  • Oh, I think it--
  • you know, I read all the different programs you have.
  • You're going out speaking.
  • Wow.
  • We never had anything like that.
  • Even in the seminary, you wouldn't get decent orientation
  • or introduction to sexual--
  • human sexuality.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: So part of what I hear you saying
  • is when you found the Gay Liberation
  • Front your sense of safety, being unafraid,
  • was like you weren't any longer--
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Right.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: --in that environment.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: I wasn't, I wasn't alone anymore.
  • I had these people so it was wonderful.
  • I mean, who became your friends.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And you felt safe?
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yes.
  • Mhm.
  • Yeah.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Some people have described that experience
  • as coming home.
  • As recognizing within the group that sense of family,
  • but more than family, because--
  • huh?
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: An extended family.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Oh, yes.
  • Definitely.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Oh, yeah.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Because you have connections
  • that go far beyond--
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yes.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: --just relationship.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Right.
  • And there's an added dimension to that for me, too.
  • Because I'm a native to the city.
  • And I go out and socialize and I'm
  • meeting people who I recognize from church, even school.
  • I mean, it's wonderful to be in Provincetown
  • and go into a piano bar and there's
  • a fellow who was a year behind you in the seminary.
  • Who you knew very well.
  • And you sit and you reminisce and you
  • talk about all the nonsense that went on, that, of course,
  • you wouldn't even be aware of, because it
  • was a pretty strict world.
  • And so, it was an added dimension.
  • You talk about coming home.
  • Yes.
  • Wow.
  • You really-- all of a sudden, you're
  • with your brothers and your sisters.
  • I mean, that's very true.
  • I still feel that way.
  • Strongly.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: So what, in your mind,
  • was the significant contribution that the Gay Liberation
  • Front made to Rochester?
  • Not just the University campus, but to Rochester.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Oh, I think it's
  • been a great education for the community.
  • Because it's been out there, definitely.
  • Yeah.
  • I mean, there's so many other things that
  • have spun off over the years.
  • You've got to remember that the Gay Liberation and the Gay
  • Alliance, they were in there with the groundwork.
  • Wow.
  • I mean, when you think of everything that's
  • happened since, positive or negative, I mean, of course,
  • the AIDS epidemic.
  • I've lost a first cousin to AIDS who was four years younger
  • than I, and I grew up with him.
  • I never knew he was gay until I'm
  • laying on the beach in Provincetown,
  • and I see a guy coming along, two men coming along,
  • and I said, "My god, that one guy I know from Kodak."
  • And I was so fixated on the guy from Kodak in my building,
  • it wasn't until they walked by I realized
  • that he was with my cousin.
  • (Laughs) So I followed them down the beach.
  • And dropped down when they got to their blanket
  • and said hello.
  • Amazing.
  • But anyways, my cousin, he went to the West Coast.
  • And, of course, I must tell you that young Frank, who I spoke
  • of earlier, also died of AIDS.
  • He was home visiting his mother one holiday time, my mother,
  • I was over visiting and having lunch.
  • And she said, "Young Frank came home to see his mother.
  • He's at St. Mary's Hospital.
  • You know, he's better.
  • He's out."
  • And when I asked her what did he have?
  • When she told me, encephalitis-type
  • inflammation of the brain.
  • And I said, "Oh man," I said, "I'm awfully afraid,
  • but I think Frank is ill with AIDS."
  • His family, and my widowed aunt, you never could mention AIDS.
  • I went to Memorial mass for young Frank
  • that was held in the chapel at St. Mary's, because he
  • died on the West Coast.
  • And I spoke to his mother.
  • She looked at me as they came in.
  • She didn't recognize me.
  • She didn't know we were friends.
  • She said, "I didn't know you knew Frank."
  • And of course, we all called him Doozer.
  • And all I said to her was, "Doozer and I
  • were very good friends, special friends."
  • And all I had to do was say that word, special,
  • and she turned around and went to talk to somebody else.
  • Never said one more word to me.
  • So I stayed for the mass and I left.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Wow.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah, amazing.
  • My aunt, right in the funeral parlor,
  • you could not even mention the word
  • that my cousin that died in California and died of AIDS.
  • I had first cousins calling me from Leroy and Batavia,
  • saying, "Marvin, tell us, did Jimmy die of AIDS?"
  • And I said, "Yes, he did."
  • But I said, "Aunt Mary didn't want it even to be mentioned."
  • God, isn't that amazing?
  • So great amount of education from the Gay Alliance.
  • And especially for--
  • I can't imagine if people are gay today, being so isolated.
  • Because there's publicity.
  • There's coverage.
  • There's programs.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Well--
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: There's public relations.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: They still have the family to deal with.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yes.
  • Yes.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: They still have the family to deal with.
  • Yeah.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Some families are supportive and open
  • and others--
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Oh, oh.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: --are like Frank's father.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And the other thing
  • is in cities, it's one thing.
  • But in rural America, I think it has not
  • changed for the past sixty or seventy years.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Right.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Because the isolation is built in.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: That's right,
  • and you just don't have that experience with diversity.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
  • Right.
  • But in hearing you talk, and in hearing you say and comment
  • on your experience of people turning away, of shutting you
  • up, of not wanting to hear the word gay or homosexual
  • or special or AIDS, the environment,
  • the society as a whole during that time
  • was still not a welcoming place, even here in Rochester.
  • And so from when you were sixteen,
  • seventeen, seminary, to today, what has changed?
  • What has-- what's different today that allows you to come
  • and share your story here?
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Well, I just
  • think it's because people are more aware.
  • Definitely.
  • I mean, I'm certainly--
  • I'm not going to be hiding someplace.
  • I refuse to.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Why?
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Because I'm me.
  • Definitely.
  • I have to say, we all have known rejection,
  • being gay men and lesbian women, god forbid
  • if you are transgendered.
  • So I mean, that's even a tougher road for so many.
  • But we've also had tremendous positive support
  • from people around us where we never expected it.
  • It just came to us.
  • We never asked for it.
  • It was there.
  • I mean, just when Steven and I got married,
  • people who just came out of the woodwork and sent cards
  • and called.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, let me ask you that.
  • Did you ever expect that you'd ever get married?
  • Legally.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: We always said
  • we would if we got it in New York state.
  • But we weren't-- you just didn't know what this recent years--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: You were together
  • with Steve for, what did you say, twenty-one, twenty-six?
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Twenty-four.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Twenty-four years?
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Right.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I mean, twenty-two years ago,
  • would it have even ever crossed your mind--
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: No.
  • No.
  • No.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: --that marriage would ever
  • be in the cards for you guys?
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: No.
  • Yeah.
  • We have European friends who, in England,
  • who have had their legal--
  • they don't have a marriage in England, but they have a--
  • oh, I forget what they call it now, but they did it.
  • So an ex-relationship of mine in London,
  • he actually invited us to come over when he had his
  • with a friend in London.
  • We didn't go.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, let me ask you this,
  • what is life like now, as a retired, married couple?
  • You know?
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: It is not any different.
  • I said to Steven--
  • well, we both agree--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: But I mean, I'm asking
  • from the standpoint of like your involvement
  • with the overall gay community.
  • I mean, you have to imagine it's different than it
  • was twenty-four years ago.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: You mean, our involvement?
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Is marriage--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, forty years later now,
  • from when you first came out to the first Gay Liberation
  • meeting, and compare that to how you live your life now.
  • You know, as a married man.
  • As are you still actively involved in the gay community?
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Oh, I am not a participator,
  • much like my partner, Stephen, is.
  • He gets very involved in all kinds of-- he's
  • on boards of Isaiah House and does
  • constant training wherever they can get the NCBI group to go in
  • do diversity training and conflict resolution.
  • I'm not that type.
  • I participate, support, so you made a reference earlier
  • that Steve gave a check.
  • Well, we funnel it through him, because of how we do our taxes.
  • So for federal reasons.
  • You can bleep that out.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I'm not the IRS.
  • Nobody'll care.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Would you say that you
  • are happier, more secure, more content, with your life
  • today than you were in that seminary,
  • in Vietnam, in Rochester when you came back,
  • in your first relationship?
  • From the perspective of your growth and your movement,
  • not necessarily because you're with a partner that can help
  • you feel that way.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Oh, yes.
  • Definitely.
  • Oh, sure.
  • Sure.
  • I am much more happy and secure.
  • If I have anything I'm not happy about it's
  • the fact that until the last few years of my life all we've
  • experienced is wars, and poverty,
  • and injustice, and still racism, those things are ongoing.
  • So but yes, as far as myself, personally, oh, my god, yeah.
  • I can't even compare my life today to seminary or military.
  • So, wow.
  • The seminary was a wonderful, wonderful liberal arts
  • education, with emphasis on the classics, wow, philosophy
  • and it was just--
  • I always said it was just like I've
  • gone to Oxford or Cambridge.
  • It was tremendous.
  • Small group of very smart people and wonderful, dedicated
  • professors.
  • Most of them were wonderful.
  • There were a couple that we could
  • have thrown in the river gorge.
  • So anyway, and I'm rambling, but--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, that brings up a question.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Sure.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: It's going to be a kind of difficult question
  • to ask, but I kind of want to ask it like this.
  • Why do you feel you've been so lucky in life?
  • Because you've come to this point where you're
  • in a great relationship, you've got a great positive attitude
  • about life, not many people have that kind of luck.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah, I suppose.
  • Can we blame it on genes?
  • Can we blame it on education?
  • And family life?
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: And I hate to say it,
  • but there's a lot of old, angry queens out there.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: And they're still angry for some reason.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Which I don't get from you at all.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: You know, I mean,
  • you seem like once you came out and you
  • found that the group to socialize with,
  • that was your life.
  • And you're going to make the best of it.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: If there's anything I'm very happy about,
  • it's the fact that I probably did stay in the seminary
  • as long as I did.
  • Because if I had quit, and gone to say Brockport
  • or another college, I would've been
  • exposed to many, many more distractions
  • in life that would have distracted me from study.
  • So I did have an experience of being
  • really-- it might have been within a monastery
  • in those days.
  • I had a curfew even when I lived at home.
  • I had permission to be out after 7:30.
  • So, did I evade that question?
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, it was kind of an odd question
  • to begin with.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Compare yourself to so many
  • other mature individuals that are out there who
  • have not had it so--
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yes, I--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: --so happily.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: I have a close friend,
  • he's trapped in his negative life.
  • Trapped absolutely.
  • Wow.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, we all know those kind of people.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah, in fact,
  • it's quite heavy to be around him
  • for any great length of time, even though I do
  • manage to do things with him.
  • He's right here in Rochester, in his seventies, gay.
  • But it's a combination of experiences
  • he's had with family, only child,
  • and he didn't always have a--
  • mother and father that were pitted against each other.
  • So I mean, I didn't have any of that.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: And an extended family, neighborhood.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: So let me ask you if you
  • were to extract out of your life the counsel of whom
  • you saw here in Rochester, what would have happened to you?
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: You're speaking of the--
  • you said the counsel?
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: You mean the--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: The counselor.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: The therapist.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Pardon me?
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: The therapist at Strong.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: The therapist at Strong.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah.
  • Oh.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: If you had not sought out that help,
  • or if no one with his skill or with his ability
  • had been in your life, where would you be?
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: I probably would have--
  • it would have been a lot tougher.
  • First of all, it was a woman.
  • And she was a psychotherapist at Strong.
  • She worked under a psychiatrist.
  • So and her name escapes me now.
  • And I know she's retired.
  • It would have been just much more
  • difficult not to have been able to have
  • had that chance with somebody who was so supportive
  • and gave you a sounding board.
  • Didn't direct me, but just let me--
  • I can go through that.
  • How it came about.
  • I told you I was depressed and to the point
  • that I broke down when I was home alone,
  • living with my family.
  • And I said to myself, you need help.
  • And I went and I called what they had,
  • a crisis line, and I spoke to somebody on that line
  • and it was very, very emotional.
  • They set me up an appointment, because they knew talking to me
  • that I wasn't going to take my life,
  • but I just, I said, "I just need to talk to somebody."
  • I think her name was Mrs. Melanies.
  • So I go.
  • That was really a scary thing, to go to this psychiatric wing
  • at Strong Memorial Hospital.
  • And I was sitting in a room, and she came out
  • to the waiting room, introduced herself.
  • She said, "Now, don't be scared."
  • She said, "You're going to go into a conference room
  • and there's going to be a couple of psychiatrists
  • and nurses and myself."
  • And she said, "If you have a hard time talking to anybody,
  • look directly at me when you're interviewed."
  • And it went very nice.
  • Very well.
  • And she was assigned to me.
  • And I would occasionally meet with a psychiatrist,
  • it was a wonderful, supportive group.
  • So it wasn't like anybody was trying to convince me I wasn't.
  • And she told me that after that half an hour
  • or whatever it was that I was interviewed
  • by everybody around this long table,
  • that nobody had any doubt from what
  • I said and answered about me and my life what I was about.
  • I was gay.
  • And she would tell me that eventually.
  • So they worked, that's what they worked.
  • And then, of course, the psychiatrist
  • got involved, because I'd have to see him.
  • And I went every week, and then, of course,
  • after a period of time I went every two weeks.
  • And I just had to--
  • I'd go in the evening and I just basically had to say,
  • well, I was going someplace.
  • Because I basically kept my therapy private.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Sure.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: To this day,
  • I don't even know if my parents ever--
  • if I ever even told them that I went.
  • But I'm very open about having therapy,
  • because I think it was--
  • there are times when people do need somebody to sort things
  • out for them.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Half the battle is just getting it out
  • of yourself.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Exactly, that's
  • what it was for me, truly.
  • That was the watershed for me in my life.
  • Tremendous watershed.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And if you had not made the phone call--
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: --it would not have happened.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: It would have just been more, and more,
  • and more agony and--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Isolation.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah.
  • Yeah.
  • You've got to remember, my coming out
  • at that particular age wasn't unusual for me,
  • because of the fact that I'd been in the seminary program,
  • through college, and then I was in the military.
  • So, everything was always pushed aside.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Right.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I have no other questions.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Well, thank you.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Well, thank you.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Very much.
  • MARVIN RITZENTHALER: It was easier
  • than I thought it would be.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, it was just
  • this is our chance to get to know you a little bit better,
  • and know some of the things that you could speak to,
  • so if we decide to maybe do an on-camera interview.
  • (Recording ends)