Audio Interview, Marvin Ritzenthaler, January 31, 2012

EVELYN BAILEY: You and Joseph Johns are good friends.

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Right.

EVELYN BAILEY: I understand.

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: For many years, yes.

Not that we see a lot of each other socially.

We get together for dinners and little--

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: We can connect off of the internet,

well, like, any time we want to be.

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

Right.

And you were involved in the GLF--

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Well, I was involved because I

was coming out at the time.

I was approximately twenty-seven-years-old.

And after college, military, and then

working at the Security Trust for a year, and then

Eastman Kodak probably for about two years, two and half years,

and I was really questioning my own sexuality.

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: And I had a wonderful therapist

that I went to.

She was strong.

And it was in a matter of just weeks,

I was at peace with everything.

But the amazing thing was to try to make some social connection

to--

and they certainly did-- they didn't--

the therapist did not want to promote where to go, but--

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: But she would ask me,

did you-- have you found anything in literature?

The closest I could--

anything I could find a reference to it

was a Mattachine Society in Buffalo.

And I thought, oh my god, I've got

to drive all the way to Buffalo.

So finally, she gave me the--

I believe it was called The Gay Liberation

Office that was in the old firehouse on Monroe Avenue.

Up in the back.

I remember going up the stairs, meeting with somebody,

and so that was my first intro.

And the fellow said, "Gee, there's

going to be a dance at the U of R."

It was something quick like that.

And so went to the student union, the old Todd Union--

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: --for a weekend.

And, of course, that's where they had their meetings.

So I would go to the meetings.

I can't say I got to--

that frequently, but I was there a lot,

because certainly it was the time I met Joseph Johns.

KEVIN INDOVINO: What year would this be?

Do you remember?

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Well, yeah, I can put it around--

it's got to be 1970.

Yeah.

Only because I could tell when the time came when I was not

dealing well with the fact that I was still dating women

and it was--

I was totally frustrated with any intimacy or closeness

in my relationships, as well as they were.

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: So that's why I

when I could remember 1969, it was

that fall, when things came to a crisis, when I broke up

with somebody.

So--

EVELYN BAILEY: Were you born in Rochester?

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yes.

Yep.

EVELYN BAILEY: OK.

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Dutchtown.

Westside.

Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: And when you were growing up,

did you have any sense that you--

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Oh, of course

you do, but you're in a Catholic school.

You're in a Catholic parish.

You're in a Catholic neighborhood,

to a great extent.

And then after eighth grade of graduating, instead of probably

doing what I thought I would like to do.

You know, there's a lot of pressure from nuns and priests,

not family, but I went to the seminary, St. Andrew's,

for the high school program.

And then, of course, you just evolved into the college

program there, as well as St. Bernard's Seminary on Lake

Avenue And then I was starting the last four year

segment of theology, and that's when I left,

and that was the fall of 1965.

So I had all my education right here,

and it wasn't really until living at St. Bernard's,

and then, of course, living with away with the military for two

years during the Vietnam build-up,

that I was really out of Rochester other than that, so.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So this coming out process,

you mentioned something about making social connections.

Before you got linked up with the Gay Liberation Front,

I mean, what were you finding out there?

Were you finding anything?

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Oh no, I wasn't.

You certainly couldn't find anything to read in a library.

God, I'm sure books-- if there were

any definite books on sexuality, they were put away someplace.

So even growing up in--

I mean all those years in the seminary, sexuality was--

it was denied.

Truly denied.

When it did surface, it was usually

brushed aside by a spiritual director or a confessor.

I mean to this day, I'm still amazed that--

EVELYN BAILEY: The church is the way it is.

Yeah.

Yeah.

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah.

I mean even today there's no honesty about sexuality.

EVELYN BAILEY: No.

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah, so anyway.

EVELYN BAILEY: When you went into the military--

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yes.

EVELYN BAILEY: --was there--

were you able to--

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yes, I--

to cope?

EVELYN BAILEY: Cope.

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Oh, absolutely.

First of all, all the years I was in the seminary, there

were gay people.

It was just the fact that you didn't talk about it.

I personally didn't act on it, but I knew people who did.

So, and of course, if you did get caught in that--

any homosexual act, you were immediately dismissed.

No questions asked.

Definitely, I mean, it was archaic.

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: So now in the military,

of course when you take your physical

and you fill out the papers, which is pre being inducted,

right there it asks you do you have--

are you attracted to people of your sex?

And all you do is check yes and you would--

you probably wouldn't have gone home that day.

You would have been kept overnight someplace

and evaluated by a psychiatrist.

And then they would have figured out

if you were really trying to pull the wool over their eyes

or whatever.

Because I remember we went up with about thirty guys

from Rochester for the physical in Buffalo.

And one of them didn't come back with us.

And that was the whisper in the bus, that, well, he was being--

he was staying back.

He was going to be evaluated.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Do you think someone

like him was checking the yes box to get out of the Army?

Because were you being drafted at the time?

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: I was being drafted.

Oh, certainly.

I would not have chosen to go into the military service.

Absolutely not.

It was the big build-up.

And when I came out of the seminary,

I lost my clerical divinity student deferment.

So I knew when I walked out of there that I was stepping right

into a firestorm.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Sure.

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Only because

of the fact that no reserve units had any openings.

People had been piling into them for several years.

And it was a very peculiar period.

And I tell people now there was never

any training for being a CO, conscientious objector.

And you would think, being a divinity student,

there would have some discussion weighing that.

But the Catholic church, on a whole,

supported the government in the war of Vietnam.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: They did.

EVELYN BAILEY: I'm just going to close this door.

KEVIN INDOVINO: I could have got it.

EVELYN BAILEY: The screeching--

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: It really wasn't until Bishop Sheen

actually came here.

Of course, I was out of the seminary

and I was in the service when he came here to be the bishop,

that he actually sent a letter that

was read from the pulpits denouncing the Vietnam War.

And it didn't sit very well with a lot of Catholic people,

because, you know.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So any secret gay society

in the military that you knew of?

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yes, I did.

Especially the California guys who were on the East Coast

from Camp Lejeune in North Carolina.

They just didn't even stay in the barracks on weekends.

They just, I don't know, somebody always had a car

and they just went to the ocean and had a motel

and had a good time and came back.

As long as he didn't have any responsibilities or duty

at the base over the weekend.

So and I can remember one very nice young man who

was in my barracks who said, "Would you like to come home

with me for that weekend?"

Well, I would loved to, but I stayed put.

Yeah, I didn't act on anything there.

So you've got to remember, my training was family,

and seminary.

Everything was discipline, discipline, and self-denial.

And basically what happens, if you go for so many years

without expressing yourself sexually,

and intimately, with somebody it comes to a boiling point

where you don't function well with anything you're doing.

And when I got to that point, living here in Rochester,

still living with my family.

My parents were congenial to live with them.

But you just are not living your own life.

So anyways, therapy was great.

I got myself an apartment. (Laughs)

Many, many great friends.

So you can't imagine what it was like to meet

people who are interested in music, or antiques,

or art instead of the majority of people

that you spent your time with.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So once you started basically coming out

of the closet, getting involved with at the University

and what not, what then were you discovering

as far as a community?

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Oh, both men and women.

And of course a lot of them were students

at the University of Rochester that were in the Gay Chapter.

Karen Hagberg, of course, was always just magnanimous.

I loved listening to her talk.

She'd invite-- many times, a couple of times anyways,

I was back at her house when she lived over off of Park Avenue.

Rutgers Street, I believe it was.

Sitting around, having coffee, and chatting, and talking.

It was really wonderful.

I mean, lesbian women and gay men.

Wow.

And I loved them all, although there were some opinions

that I thought were a little bit too far out for me.

(LAUGHS)

EVELYN BAILEY: What were those meetings like at the U of R?

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Well, it was a big room

and people were either in chairs or sitting on the floor,

around in a big circle.

And there was a structure.

I can't tell you who some of the officers were.

I imagine Karen Hagberg was one of them.

Some of those names that if I hear them,

I know who the people are.

EVELYN BAILEY: Well, it would have been RJ Alcala.

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yes, well, of course, RJ.

Yes.

EVELYN BAILEY: Larry Fine.

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: You know, I've heard Larry Fine's name.

I know I would know if I saw a picture of him,

but I can't place him with a face.

EVELYN BAILEY: Bob Osborne.

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah, that's

another one I can't quite remember.

EVELYN BAILEY: And then there would

have been a Jewish fellow, who has since died.

His name won't come to my head.

Michael Robertson and Whitey LeBlanc

were members of the group.

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yes.

Yes, I've known Whitey many, many years.

EVELYN BAILEY: They were community people.

RJ, and Larry, and Karen, and Patti Evans, and--

were students.

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Right.

EVELYN BAILEY: Marshall Goldman.

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: I can remember the name,

but I can't place him.

EVELYN BAILEY: They were students

and then the people who came from Rochester

were probably Vince DiSchino, Whitey--

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Whitey's friend, I see them--

EVELYN BAILEY: Jay Baker.

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Jay Baker.

Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: Now we're going back.

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: You know all these people?

KEVIN INDOVINO: I know the names.

I haven't met them all.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: And, of course--

KEVIN INDOVINO: Sorry.

EVELYN BAILEY: Go ahead.

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: They were basically a give-and-take

and people--

I can't remember any structure where anybody--

any particular meetings or things

that were going on where people would have to get organized.

But I'm sure that did go on.

EVELYN BAILEY: Were you at the meeting at which the women--

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yes.

Yes, I was.

EVELYN BAILEY: --kind of--

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: You've got to remember now, I am coming--

I'm just getting used to everybody.

And foibles, you know, personalities,

and characters some of them.

And so when this blew up, I was respectful of it.

And it happened.

And I can remember--

I think if I had any regret it was the fact that I wasn't

going to see Karen Hagberg.

Because she was always fun to chat with or be in a group

where she was chatting.

Karen, you know, she's--

EVELYN BAILEY: What happened at that meeting?

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: I guess I didn't--

it didn't scar me.

And of course, I was very open to the fact

too that they may have had very legitimate beefs.

So of course, you can imagine, here I wasn't even

a straight man, I was a gay man, who had a very feminine side,

so I thought, oh my god.

You know, it was a surprise.

Yeah.

I don't know how many years they stayed really separated,

but eventually they folded--

everybody folded back in together.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Can you can share with us

anything that you remember about leading up to the breakup?

I mean, and well, you know, what was being talked about?

What was being argued about?

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: No, I just--

I just can't.

Some of those issues.

Whether it was some of the things were very personal.

Of course, it was the feminist movement that was starting

and of course the women were trying

to deal with men on many of the same issues.

And then many of the same issues weren't the same for them

as they were for men.

So I can't think of anything specific that one person said.

Some people were very, very adamant about it.

But I didn't see Karen that way, but she definitely went along,

so I wouldn't judge where she--

I wouldn't want to say where she was on the whole issue.

EVELYN BAILEY: And her partner at the time I think

was Kate Duru.

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: I can't remember her.

Yeah, she--

EVELYN BAILEY: And she was, I believe,

one of the more vocal--

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yes.

EVELYN BAILEY: --women.

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yes.

There were vocal women, but there were vocal men, too.

And I suppose that I was just as judgmental

of some of the vocal men with ideas they had as some

of the women.

KEVIN INDOVINO: When this is all happening,

where did you see your place in all of this?

As far as--

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Well, I didn't

see it was going to diminish me, personally,

and what was happening for me with my friends, and so,

and, of course, over time, very few of those people--

you know, like I could think of Joseph Johns

is the only one I can really think of it that I'm still

in touch with.

So, he still talks about it, a little bit of drama.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.

He seems to have been very touched

by that whole experience.

I think he was a leader in the group, or at least

led some of the meetings.

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yes, he did.

Yeah, he did moderate meetings.

Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: Were there--

do you recall if there were people from the University

who came to those meetings who were not--

like, I don't want to say spies, I don't want to say--

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: I have no doubt

that there were, because of the era, definitely.

Matter of fact, it was said, and I don't know who said it,

but it was certainly something that was mentioned,

that when we were forced off the campus

the reason was the University administration was not

happy to be having gay lesbian women meeting.

But I think we had broken up probably around the same time.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: They weren't happy with them coming

and then they were bringing people from the community.

So there was one incident, you know,

they had this weekend with the dance.

I didn't realize the dance and the art show

were all that same weekend.

They had a gay art show right there in Todd Union.

So Joseph Johns, I remember driving.

And Joseph tells me that our friend, Bruce Brooks,

was there and John Adams.

John who lives on the West Coast now.

But what I do remember, we went on like a Sunday afternoon.

And we went in and we looked at the art

that people had contributed.

And there were three young youths in there

who were giggling and poking each other.

And I didn't think--

I didn't pay much attention to them.

But they were not students.

They were from off the campus.

They had just walked in off River Boulevard.

We didn't pay a bit of attention to them.

And I just thought they were immature.

But when we left and we walked out,

we got to the main sidewalk to walk down River Boulevard

to get to our car.

And all of a sudden, this car came speeding very fast

and things flew by us.

They were rocks.

It was about like this size.

And those kids went out and got in their car with rocks

and they waited for us to come out.

We were the only people in there.

And they threw them.

That was very upsetting to John Adams.

He would never go again to any gay meeting or anything.

Joseph told me this.

I didn't realize it had affected him that much.

But remember one of the stones actually

hit an automobile that was parked on the Boulevard.

It had to damage it.

So whether the University was monitoring

any of this, seeing any of this, and said,

hey, this is something we just don't want this here anymore.

And I don't even know who is the administration at that time.

Was it Dr. Sproul?

EVELYN BAILEY: I'm not sure.

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: It was very conservative.

The University at that time was very withdrawn

from the community.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: You know, it's not like it is today.

EVELYN BAILEY: When they left the U of R campus, did

you move with them to--

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Oh, I undoubtedly did, certainly.

Yeah.

I wasn't too long--

it wasn't too long before I was in a relationship with somebody

and that sort of took me out of circulation as far as going

around in that--

to meetings and stuff like that.

EVELYN BAILEY: Did you go to the bars?

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Oh, yeah, I would

go to bars to dance, and socialize, and meet somebody

there.

yeah, but not on a regular basis.

(Laughs) I used to hate to have to hang my clothes off

in the garage, or the basement, to get the smoke out of them.

But they were fun.

I mean, happy hours.

It was-- gosh.

EVELYN BAILEY: And what were some of the bars?

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Well, I got in once or twice

to Jim's when it was on Court Street.

And, of course, that was all torn down

and they built maybe Xerox office building.

And then, of course, I remember Jim's being

over on North Street, which is now something else.

Liberty Pole Way.

So in those days, then there was one on St. Paul by Hawkeye

that opened up quite a few years ago.

And it didn't go very long, but it was nice, new place.

I can't even tell you the name.

The bars in those days, Jim's would be the main one

that I recall.

I remember a friend, years ago, but years after those early

coming out days, he took me to a women's bar

on South Avenue, and to meet some of his lesbian friends.

And he told me that they're not going

to like us coming in here.

And so he had me scared the hell.

Well, I had a heck of good time.

EVELYN BAILEY: It was the Riverview, probably.

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah, it was the Riverview.

Thank you.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: Do you have a sense, Marvin,

of what the city of Rochester environment

was in terms of being gay or in terms of being--

and I know you weren't an activist,

but there were certainly components of the Gay Alliance

and the GLF that were.

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Well, the big thing

that I witnessed was Charlie Schiano, who was the lone--

Lonesome Charlie, he called himself,

the Republican on the City Council.

Were you here in those days?

EVELYN BAILEY: No.

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: OK, well, it

was a big fight over the CETA grants, government grants.

And, of course, the Gay Alliance did qualify to apply.

So I believe it was the Empty Closet went for grant money.

There was a big hullabaloo over that.

So Charlie was going to be speaking at a City Council

meeting.

And so a friend called me.

And I was down at Kodak working.

And he said, would you like to come and be in the audience?

So I got there even before anybody started filtering in,

and I was just sitting there reading a book.

So that was something to see that night.

I mean, literally, people coming in--

Bible thumpers, where they're thumping on their Bible.

I can't even remember who would the mayor

have been at that time.

I can remember year he threatened

to clear the whole council room, because of the--

EVELYN BAILEY: It wouldn't have been--

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Ryan?

EVELYN BAILEY: Ryan.

KEVIN INDOVINO: No, not in that--

EVELYN BAILEY: Yes, it was.

KEVIN INDOVINO: That early?

EVELYN BAILEY: It was Ryan.

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: It seems like it was Ryan.

KEVIN INDOVINO: What date are we talking about?

EVELYN BAILEY: '77.

KEVIN INDOVINO: '77.

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

That was the first CETA funding.

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah.

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.

EVELYN BAILEY: 1977.

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: But I remember

because I got there early a lady came in and sat with me.

Had a pleasant conversation.

I have on a sports coat and slacks,

because I've come from work.

And we were having a very nice conversation.

And it filled up, and it filled up, my friends got in there

and they sat next to me.

Well, she picked up on what--

you know, when one of the first applause was for a speaker,

she picked up who we were supporting,

she got up, in that crowded place where

there was no chairs left, and she just

like that got up, turned, looked, and walked away.

That's how-- you couldn't even sit

next to a gay person or somebody who

was supporting a gay program.

EVELYN BAILEY: And how did you feel about that?

How did you respond to that?

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Well my response was what--

there was nothing you could say to her, because there

was a meeting going on.

And she was just getting up and getting over.

Somebody immediately came and sat down,

because who wanted to sit for this--

or stand around along the walls.

So, but when we left, the two friends and I,

and for some reason we didn't take the stairs.

We decided to take the elevators.

And I believe his name was-- was it Fletcher Brothers was

one of the ringleaders of the antagonists

and anti-CETA funds for our program.

Well, they were just absolutely rabid people.

I mean, just to observe them.

You talk about really people are crazy.

(Laughs) So, all I know is, I could tell

they were the two ministers.

They were standing on the side with lots of their supporters

along the wall.

And there were children.

They brought children with them too.

Well, they happened to get in the elevator going down

with us.

And I can still see this boy, about ten-years-old, complete

silence in the elevator.

He looks at me and he said, "If you were my son,

I'd wish you dead."

That was with two ministers, and one of them being his father,

right there.

We couldn't-- we couldn't believe it.

You know, isn't that Christian?

And to bring a child up.

KEVIN INDOVINO: And that's what he's hearing from his father.

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah, to bring a child.

And we walked out of there and said, "My god, what are world's

out there."

Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: Did you ever go to another--

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Oh, no.

They wouldn't-- that wouldn't keep me from going.

I had spent so many years in a Catholic education,

Catholic environment, and I had never even seen hatred

like this in my faith tradition.

I'm sure there are people who expressed that, too.

Were misguided.

So, yeah.

KEVIN INDOVINO: I'd like to know where that boy is now.

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: You what?

Oh.

KEVIN INDOVINO: I'd like to know where that little boy is now.

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: I've often thought

where is that boy today.

And think of it, he'd be forty-years-old easily.

God.

You wonder what burden he's had to carry or had to get rid of.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So let's back up a little bit.

When the Gay Liberation Front split,

and you kind of went off with the men, tell me,

what happened next?

What were the primary goals or missions that--

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah, once again I never

registered much of that myself, even in a time--

or a time frame or a progress made with some issue.

Because for me, it was I was there and after--

when I did go to a meeting, it'd go off in somebody's house.

Or you might go out and have a drink at the bar.

And it was social.

For me, it was social.

So I wasn't really seeing it as a political--

although I was certainly aware things were happening.

So we really weren't--

I can't even think of any issues that got a lot of publicity

back in that time.

EVELYN BAILEY: Were there issues with the police?

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Well, they were a presence, definitely.

I never felt intimidated by them.

I saw them come into Jim's bar, especially--

I mean, I remember them coming into North Street

and coming in, being there.

And I had no idea--

I never saw anybody arrested.

I think that would have all been pre my being out

in the early '70s.

Still was going on probably.

Yeah

Now, as far as things that were going on out

in public, that shouldn't be, you know,

sex acts in parks and stuff like that.

I don't know anything about that,

except that I knew there was patrols.

I can remember, it was almost embarrassing.

The police had a sort of a liaison, started to have

a liaison, with the community.

And they alerted the Alliance that the problem down in Durand

Eastman.

And to announce, they show publish it, and tell people.

They said they even had people in a car on that road

and said, don't go down there.

The police are down there and there will be arrests.

These people still went down.

I just-- where I'm coming from, I just

could not understand that.

So I really don't--

I really can't say from experience

about police arrests.

But I had a very interesting experience.

It happens I knew a fellow.

Indirectly, our families knew each other.

And even though they didn't socialize that much,

we crossed paths.

My mother worked for the company where the family owned,

and I would see some of these kids occasionally.

Well, we grow up and I know of young Frank Carroll

Jr., whose nickname was Doozer because his father was

Frank Carroll, Sr. My mother worked for him.

So I'm getting ready to fly to San Francisco on my way

to Vietnam.

And I have a layover in the airport.

My mother says, "Call Frank's son.

He's in the Air Force in San Francisco."

I get off the plane.

I give him a call.

I reach him.

He's in his office on the base.

He says, "Stay right where you are.

I know right where you are."

I told him how I sat at some bar in the airport.

So Frank Jr. comes and we had three, four drinks.

And when I got on that plane, I was--

I just slept.

But we had a wonderful conversation.

I didn't know anything about him.

But we just had a great rapport.

I'm not out.

I don't know anything about young Frank.

So I get back.

It's about five years later, I go to a party in Brighton.

Taken by another other friend.

There's Frank.

He's actually live-- sharing this apartment in Brighton

with a fellow.

And I said, "Frank, you remember me?"

He couldn't place me.

So we played a game.

So I told him who I was and, of course,

we both laughed, because here we--

he was gay in California in the Air Force.

But I was in the Marines and I was heading to Vietnam.

And, you know, I didn't know my sexual--

I hadn't accepted my sexuality at that point in life.

So time goes on.

Young Frank moves to California.

And every time he'd come back to Rochester,

he'd stop and see me at my home in Brighton.

And we'd have some drinks, and talk,

and he used to say, "Oh, sell this house.

Quit your job at Kodak.

Come out to West Hollywood.

He said, it's just wonderful.

Everybody's gay, and you know, it's not--

it's not--" and I said, "Oh, yeah, sure, Frank."

But Frank tells me a story, it sheds insight into the police.

His father not only was Secretary Treasurer

of his company that the family owned.

But his father was police chief in the town of Gates.

Republican.

The police, he tells me this later on,

the police had informed his father

by taking license plates numbers and tracking

who these people were.

His father found out.

And he said his father called him down in the basement,

because he wanted to talk to him about something.

And his father said, "You know, have you

been going to the gay bars that have been reported to me?"

And he said, "Yeah."

And instead of discussing it, and he

said his father just hauled off and punched him.

Can you imagine?

I mean, just the pain of him telling me that.

I thought, god, my father--

my father would never have handled anything like that.

It's just amazing.

Was never-- so there is where police informed on people who

were not doing anything wrong.

So.

EVELYN BAILEY: But you saw that same reaction

in that city hall chamber?

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah.

Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: And when--

what effect did that have on you?

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Well, it's sobering.

But at the same token, you cannot let that consume you.

I mean, you can't.

You can't let it turn you inside out to the point

that you can't function.

But you have to be very much aware of the fact

that there are people, even today, that

don't have any qualms of conscience

of doing harmful things.

EVELYN BAILEY: Were you afraid after that point?

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: No, I can't say I was.

I was always cautious though.

I was always guarded, definitely.

Definitely always guarded.

Yeah.

At the time that Frank told me the story, young Frank,

about his father, and of course his father

is dead at this time.

And gee, just amazing.

So I can't say I was scared from hearing it.

But I was disappointed having known Mr. Carroll.

And my mother, having worked for him in the office.

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

Were you and your friends after that city council meeting--

obviously, you were cautious, but did it

change the way in which you lived

your quote unquote "gay life?"

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: No.

No.

No.

Just made me more determined that I

wasn't going to back down.

I wasn't going to be ashamed of who I was.

Really, wow.

KEVIN INDOVINO: How about your work environment at Kodak?

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Well I worked with wonderful people

and even though I didn't hide anything,

they knew I lived with a gentlemen.

So it was--

EVELYN BAILEY: Was here a Lambda Network?

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah, it was just starting

and it probably was in existence the last ten years

that I was there.

See, I've been gone sixteen years now.

And I left I was fifty-two.

So, and I wasn't part of it.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: But--

KEVIN INDOVINO: It would have started around '93.

'92-'93.

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Oh, did it?

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah, that's right.

It was relatively new.

Yeah.

Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: You know, we

mentioned earlier David Cosell.

Is he still at Kodak by any--

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, he's in Atlanta.

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: In Atlanta.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Wonderful.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

KEVIN INDOVINO: He was hoping to retire last year,

but every year he goes to retire, they--

it's like you said, they changed the points or whatever,

so it's like, oh, I've got to stay another year.

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So then through the rest

of the '70s and the 1980s, and just talk to me about your life

and the kind of things you were involved with.

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Oh, well, gee, of course my partner,

and now spouse as of October 1st,

Steve Juros we've been together twenty-four years.

So I had a relationship for six years from basically 1972

to '78 with with Rob Goodling.

You might know Rob.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yes, so then it

was a few years in between that I was on my own.

I lived in Brighton.

And Rob lived with me in Brighton for a period of time,

but he eventually moved back into the city.

EVELYN BAILEY: Were you at Kodak still?

MARVIN RITZENTHALER: I was with Kodak,

yes, I was with Kodak all those working years.

Twenty-seven.

So, god, yeah.

And it wasn't a great environment the last nine

years, only because there was constant downsizing.

And it seemed that there was one time every six months

to a year I had a new manager.

And some of them were clueless what you did.

You were in another building.

But they were trying to justify why

some people were managers at putting more people under them.

And then we had the business philosophy training session

every so often.

That was our philosophy or something,

you had to come in on weekends to go to special training.

So it was not a pleasant environment.

And then we had--

they had contract people coming in.

We had some wonderful contract people work in our department.

They were smart.

They learned fast, because we were in computer systems.

They were such an asset to us.

More so than some people that we had

and you couldn't get them to do another darn thing

or you couldn't get rid of them.

And the contract people, their two years would be up,

and they'd think they were going to get hired.

And they were done.

I mean these corporate mentality--

these decisions.

I remember going to a boss and saying, why would

we get rid of this--