Audio Interview, Marvin Ritzenthaler, January 31, 2012
- EVELYN BAILEY: You and Joseph Johns are good friends.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Right.
- EVELYN BAILEY: I understand.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: For many years, yes.
- Not that we see a lot of each other socially.
- We get together for dinners and little--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: We can connect off of the internet,
- well, like, any time we want to be.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- Right.
- And you were involved in the GLF--
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Well, I was involved because I
- was coming out at the time.
- I was approximately twenty-seven-years-old.
- And after college, military, and then
- working at the Security Trust for a year, and then
- Eastman Kodak probably for about two years, two and half years,
- and I was really questioning my own sexuality.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: And I had a wonderful therapist
- that I went to.
- She was strong.
- And it was in a matter of just weeks,
- I was at peace with everything.
- But the amazing thing was to try to make some social connection
- to--
- and they certainly did-- they didn't--
- the therapist did not want to promote where to go, but--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: But she would ask me,
- did you-- have you found anything in literature?
- The closest I could--
- anything I could find a reference to it
- was a Mattachine Society in Buffalo.
- And I thought, oh my god, I've got
- to drive all the way to Buffalo.
- So finally, she gave me the--
- I believe it was called The Gay Liberation
- Office that was in the old firehouse on Monroe Avenue.
- Up in the back.
- I remember going up the stairs, meeting with somebody,
- and so that was my first intro.
- And the fellow said, "Gee, there's
- going to be a dance at the U of R."
- It was something quick like that.
- And so went to the student union, the old Todd Union--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: --for a weekend.
- And, of course, that's where they had their meetings.
- So I would go to the meetings.
- I can't say I got to--
- that frequently, but I was there a lot,
- because certainly it was the time I met Joseph Johns.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: What year would this be?
- Do you remember?
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Well, yeah, I can put it around--
- it's got to be 1970.
- Yeah.
- Only because I could tell when the time came when I was not
- dealing well with the fact that I was still dating women
- and it was--
- I was totally frustrated with any intimacy or closeness
- in my relationships, as well as they were.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: So that's why I
- when I could remember 1969, it was
- that fall, when things came to a crisis, when I broke up
- with somebody.
- So--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Were you born in Rochester?
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yes.
- Yep.
- EVELYN BAILEY: OK.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Dutchtown.
- Westside.
- Yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And when you were growing up,
- did you have any sense that you--
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Oh, of course
- you do, but you're in a Catholic school.
- You're in a Catholic parish.
- You're in a Catholic neighborhood,
- to a great extent.
- And then after eighth grade of graduating, instead of probably
- doing what I thought I would like to do.
- You know, there's a lot of pressure from nuns and priests,
- not family, but I went to the seminary, St. Andrew's,
- for the high school program.
- And then, of course, you just evolved into the college
- program there, as well as St. Bernard's Seminary on Lake
- Avenue And then I was starting the last four year
- segment of theology, and that's when I left,
- and that was the fall of 1965.
- So I had all my education right here,
- and it wasn't really until living at St. Bernard's,
- and then, of course, living with away with the military for two
- years during the Vietnam build-up,
- that I was really out of Rochester other than that, so.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So this coming out process,
- you mentioned something about making social connections.
- Before you got linked up with the Gay Liberation Front,
- I mean, what were you finding out there?
- Were you finding anything?
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Oh no, I wasn't.
- You certainly couldn't find anything to read in a library.
- God, I'm sure books-- if there were
- any definite books on sexuality, they were put away someplace.
- So even growing up in--
- I mean all those years in the seminary, sexuality was--
- it was denied.
- Truly denied.
- When it did surface, it was usually
- brushed aside by a spiritual director or a confessor.
- I mean to this day, I'm still amazed that--
- EVELYN BAILEY: The church is the way it is.
- Yeah.
- Yeah.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah.
- I mean even today there's no honesty about sexuality.
- EVELYN BAILEY: No.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah, so anyway.
- EVELYN BAILEY: When you went into the military--
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yes.
- EVELYN BAILEY: --was there--
- were you able to--
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yes, I--
- to cope?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Cope.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Oh, absolutely.
- First of all, all the years I was in the seminary, there
- were gay people.
- It was just the fact that you didn't talk about it.
- I personally didn't act on it, but I knew people who did.
- So, and of course, if you did get caught in that--
- any homosexual act, you were immediately dismissed.
- No questions asked.
- Definitely, I mean, it was archaic.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: So now in the military,
- of course when you take your physical
- and you fill out the papers, which is pre being inducted,
- right there it asks you do you have--
- are you attracted to people of your sex?
- And all you do is check yes and you would--
- you probably wouldn't have gone home that day.
- You would have been kept overnight someplace
- and evaluated by a psychiatrist.
- And then they would have figured out
- if you were really trying to pull the wool over their eyes
- or whatever.
- Because I remember we went up with about thirty guys
- from Rochester for the physical in Buffalo.
- And one of them didn't come back with us.
- And that was the whisper in the bus, that, well, he was being--
- he was staying back.
- He was going to be evaluated.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Do you think someone
- like him was checking the yes box to get out of the Army?
- Because were you being drafted at the time?
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: I was being drafted.
- Oh, certainly.
- I would not have chosen to go into the military service.
- Absolutely not.
- It was the big build-up.
- And when I came out of the seminary,
- I lost my clerical divinity student deferment.
- So I knew when I walked out of there that I was stepping right
- into a firestorm.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Sure.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Only because
- of the fact that no reserve units had any openings.
- People had been piling into them for several years.
- And it was a very peculiar period.
- And I tell people now there was never
- any training for being a CO, conscientious objector.
- And you would think, being a divinity student,
- there would have some discussion weighing that.
- But the Catholic church, on a whole,
- supported the government in the war of Vietnam.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: They did.
- EVELYN BAILEY: I'm just going to close this door.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I could have got it.
- EVELYN BAILEY: The screeching--
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: It really wasn't until Bishop Sheen
- actually came here.
- Of course, I was out of the seminary
- and I was in the service when he came here to be the bishop,
- that he actually sent a letter that
- was read from the pulpits denouncing the Vietnam War.
- And it didn't sit very well with a lot of Catholic people,
- because, you know.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So any secret gay society
- in the military that you knew of?
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yes, I did.
- Especially the California guys who were on the East Coast
- from Camp Lejeune in North Carolina.
- They just didn't even stay in the barracks on weekends.
- They just, I don't know, somebody always had a car
- and they just went to the ocean and had a motel
- and had a good time and came back.
- As long as he didn't have any responsibilities or duty
- at the base over the weekend.
- So and I can remember one very nice young man who
- was in my barracks who said, "Would you like to come home
- with me for that weekend?"
- Well, I would loved to, but I stayed put.
- Yeah, I didn't act on anything there.
- So you've got to remember, my training was family,
- and seminary.
- Everything was discipline, discipline, and self-denial.
- And basically what happens, if you go for so many years
- without expressing yourself sexually,
- and intimately, with somebody it comes to a boiling point
- where you don't function well with anything you're doing.
- And when I got to that point, living here in Rochester,
- still living with my family.
- My parents were congenial to live with them.
- But you just are not living your own life.
- So anyways, therapy was great.
- I got myself an apartment. (Laughs)
- Many, many great friends.
- So you can't imagine what it was like to meet
- people who are interested in music, or antiques,
- or art instead of the majority of people
- that you spent your time with.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So once you started basically coming out
- of the closet, getting involved with at the University
- and what not, what then were you discovering
- as far as a community?
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Oh, both men and women.
- And of course a lot of them were students
- at the University of Rochester that were in the Gay Chapter.
- Karen Hagberg, of course, was always just magnanimous.
- I loved listening to her talk.
- She'd invite-- many times, a couple of times anyways,
- I was back at her house when she lived over off of Park Avenue.
- Rutgers Street, I believe it was.
- Sitting around, having coffee, and chatting, and talking.
- It was really wonderful.
- I mean, lesbian women and gay men.
- Wow.
- And I loved them all, although there were some opinions
- that I thought were a little bit too far out for me.
- (LAUGHS)
- EVELYN BAILEY: What were those meetings like at the U of R?
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Well, it was a big room
- and people were either in chairs or sitting on the floor,
- around in a big circle.
- And there was a structure.
- I can't tell you who some of the officers were.
- I imagine Karen Hagberg was one of them.
- Some of those names that if I hear them,
- I know who the people are.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Well, it would have been RJ Alcala.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yes, well, of course, RJ.
- Yes.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Larry Fine.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: You know, I've heard Larry Fine's name.
- I know I would know if I saw a picture of him,
- but I can't place him with a face.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Bob Osborne.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah, that's
- another one I can't quite remember.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And then there would
- have been a Jewish fellow, who has since died.
- His name won't come to my head.
- Michael Robertson and Whitey LeBlanc
- were members of the group.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yes.
- Yes, I've known Whitey many, many years.
- EVELYN BAILEY: They were community people.
- RJ, and Larry, and Karen, and Patti Evans, and--
- were students.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Right.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Marshall Goldman.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: I can remember the name,
- but I can't place him.
- EVELYN BAILEY: They were students
- and then the people who came from Rochester
- were probably Vince DiSchino, Whitey--
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Whitey's friend, I see them--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Jay Baker.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Jay Baker.
- Yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Now we're going back.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: You know all these people?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I know the names.
- I haven't met them all.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: And, of course--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Sorry.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Go ahead.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: They were basically a give-and-take
- and people--
- I can't remember any structure where anybody--
- any particular meetings or things
- that were going on where people would have to get organized.
- But I'm sure that did go on.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Were you at the meeting at which the women--
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yes.
- Yes, I was.
- EVELYN BAILEY: --kind of--
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: You've got to remember now, I am coming--
- I'm just getting used to everybody.
- And foibles, you know, personalities,
- and characters some of them.
- And so when this blew up, I was respectful of it.
- And it happened.
- And I can remember--
- I think if I had any regret it was the fact that I wasn't
- going to see Karen Hagberg.
- Because she was always fun to chat with or be in a group
- where she was chatting.
- Karen, you know, she's--
- EVELYN BAILEY: What happened at that meeting?
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: I guess I didn't--
- it didn't scar me.
- And of course, I was very open to the fact
- too that they may have had very legitimate beefs.
- So of course, you can imagine, here I wasn't even
- a straight man, I was a gay man, who had a very feminine side,
- so I thought, oh my god.
- You know, it was a surprise.
- Yeah.
- I don't know how many years they stayed really separated,
- but eventually they folded--
- everybody folded back in together.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Can you can share with us
- anything that you remember about leading up to the breakup?
- I mean, and well, you know, what was being talked about?
- What was being argued about?
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: No, I just--
- I just can't.
- Some of those issues.
- Whether it was some of the things were very personal.
- Of course, it was the feminist movement that was starting
- and of course the women were trying
- to deal with men on many of the same issues.
- And then many of the same issues weren't the same for them
- as they were for men.
- So I can't think of anything specific that one person said.
- Some people were very, very adamant about it.
- But I didn't see Karen that way, but she definitely went along,
- so I wouldn't judge where she--
- I wouldn't want to say where she was on the whole issue.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And her partner at the time I think
- was Kate Duru.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: I can't remember her.
- Yeah, she--
- EVELYN BAILEY: And she was, I believe,
- one of the more vocal--
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yes.
- EVELYN BAILEY: --women.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yes.
- There were vocal women, but there were vocal men, too.
- And I suppose that I was just as judgmental
- of some of the vocal men with ideas they had as some
- of the women.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: When this is all happening,
- where did you see your place in all of this?
- As far as--
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Well, I didn't
- see it was going to diminish me, personally,
- and what was happening for me with my friends, and so,
- and, of course, over time, very few of those people--
- you know, like I could think of Joseph Johns
- is the only one I can really think of it that I'm still
- in touch with.
- So, he still talks about it, a little bit of drama.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
- He seems to have been very touched
- by that whole experience.
- I think he was a leader in the group, or at least
- led some of the meetings.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yes, he did.
- Yeah, he did moderate meetings.
- Yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Were there--
- do you recall if there were people from the University
- who came to those meetings who were not--
- like, I don't want to say spies, I don't want to say--
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: I have no doubt
- that there were, because of the era, definitely.
- Matter of fact, it was said, and I don't know who said it,
- but it was certainly something that was mentioned,
- that when we were forced off the campus
- the reason was the University administration was not
- happy to be having gay lesbian women meeting.
- But I think we had broken up probably around the same time.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: They weren't happy with them coming
- and then they were bringing people from the community.
- So there was one incident, you know,
- they had this weekend with the dance.
- I didn't realize the dance and the art show
- were all that same weekend.
- They had a gay art show right there in Todd Union.
- So Joseph Johns, I remember driving.
- And Joseph tells me that our friend, Bruce Brooks,
- was there and John Adams.
- John who lives on the West Coast now.
- But what I do remember, we went on like a Sunday afternoon.
- And we went in and we looked at the art
- that people had contributed.
- And there were three young youths in there
- who were giggling and poking each other.
- And I didn't think--
- I didn't pay much attention to them.
- But they were not students.
- They were from off the campus.
- They had just walked in off River Boulevard.
- We didn't pay a bit of attention to them.
- And I just thought they were immature.
- But when we left and we walked out,
- we got to the main sidewalk to walk down River Boulevard
- to get to our car.
- And all of a sudden, this car came speeding very fast
- and things flew by us.
- They were rocks.
- It was about like this size.
- And those kids went out and got in their car with rocks
- and they waited for us to come out.
- We were the only people in there.
- And they threw them.
- That was very upsetting to John Adams.
- He would never go again to any gay meeting or anything.
- Joseph told me this.
- I didn't realize it had affected him that much.
- But remember one of the stones actually
- hit an automobile that was parked on the Boulevard.
- It had to damage it.
- So whether the University was monitoring
- any of this, seeing any of this, and said,
- hey, this is something we just don't want this here anymore.
- And I don't even know who is the administration at that time.
- Was it Dr. Sproul?
- EVELYN BAILEY: I'm not sure.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: It was very conservative.
- The University at that time was very withdrawn
- from the community.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: You know, it's not like it is today.
- EVELYN BAILEY: When they left the U of R campus, did
- you move with them to--
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Oh, I undoubtedly did, certainly.
- Yeah.
- I wasn't too long--
- it wasn't too long before I was in a relationship with somebody
- and that sort of took me out of circulation as far as going
- around in that--
- to meetings and stuff like that.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Did you go to the bars?
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Oh, yeah, I would
- go to bars to dance, and socialize, and meet somebody
- there.
- yeah, but not on a regular basis.
- (Laughs) I used to hate to have to hang my clothes off
- in the garage, or the basement, to get the smoke out of them.
- But they were fun.
- I mean, happy hours.
- It was-- gosh.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And what were some of the bars?
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Well, I got in once or twice
- to Jim's when it was on Court Street.
- And, of course, that was all torn down
- and they built maybe Xerox office building.
- And then, of course, I remember Jim's being
- over on North Street, which is now something else.
- Liberty Pole Way.
- So in those days, then there was one on St. Paul by Hawkeye
- that opened up quite a few years ago.
- And it didn't go very long, but it was nice, new place.
- I can't even tell you the name.
- The bars in those days, Jim's would be the main one
- that I recall.
- I remember a friend, years ago, but years after those early
- coming out days, he took me to a women's bar
- on South Avenue, and to meet some of his lesbian friends.
- And he told me that they're not going
- to like us coming in here.
- And so he had me scared the hell.
- Well, I had a heck of good time.
- EVELYN BAILEY: It was the Riverview, probably.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah, it was the Riverview.
- Thank you.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Do you have a sense, Marvin,
- of what the city of Rochester environment
- was in terms of being gay or in terms of being--
- and I know you weren't an activist,
- but there were certainly components of the Gay Alliance
- and the GLF that were.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Well, the big thing
- that I witnessed was Charlie Schiano, who was the lone--
- Lonesome Charlie, he called himself,
- the Republican on the City Council.
- Were you here in those days?
- EVELYN BAILEY: No.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: OK, well, it
- was a big fight over the CETA grants, government grants.
- And, of course, the Gay Alliance did qualify to apply.
- So I believe it was the Empty Closet went for grant money.
- There was a big hullabaloo over that.
- So Charlie was going to be speaking at a City Council
- meeting.
- And so a friend called me.
- And I was down at Kodak working.
- And he said, would you like to come and be in the audience?
- So I got there even before anybody started filtering in,
- and I was just sitting there reading a book.
- So that was something to see that night.
- I mean, literally, people coming in--
- Bible thumpers, where they're thumping on their Bible.
- I can't even remember who would the mayor
- have been at that time.
- I can remember year he threatened
- to clear the whole council room, because of the--
- EVELYN BAILEY: It wouldn't have been--
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Ryan?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Ryan.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: No, not in that--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yes, it was.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: That early?
- EVELYN BAILEY: It was Ryan.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: It seems like it was Ryan.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: What date are we talking about?
- EVELYN BAILEY: '77.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: '77.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- That was the first CETA funding.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
- EVELYN BAILEY: 1977.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: But I remember
- because I got there early a lady came in and sat with me.
- Had a pleasant conversation.
- I have on a sports coat and slacks,
- because I've come from work.
- And we were having a very nice conversation.
- And it filled up, and it filled up, my friends got in there
- and they sat next to me.
- Well, she picked up on what--
- you know, when one of the first applause was for a speaker,
- she picked up who we were supporting,
- she got up, in that crowded place where
- there was no chairs left, and she just
- like that got up, turned, looked, and walked away.
- That's how-- you couldn't even sit
- next to a gay person or somebody who
- was supporting a gay program.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And how did you feel about that?
- How did you respond to that?
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Well my response was what--
- there was nothing you could say to her, because there
- was a meeting going on.
- And she was just getting up and getting over.
- Somebody immediately came and sat down,
- because who wanted to sit for this--
- or stand around along the walls.
- So, but when we left, the two friends and I,
- and for some reason we didn't take the stairs.
- We decided to take the elevators.
- And I believe his name was-- was it Fletcher Brothers was
- one of the ringleaders of the antagonists
- and anti-CETA funds for our program.
- Well, they were just absolutely rabid people.
- I mean, just to observe them.
- You talk about really people are crazy.
- (Laughs) So, all I know is, I could tell
- they were the two ministers.
- They were standing on the side with lots of their supporters
- along the wall.
- And there were children.
- They brought children with them too.
- Well, they happened to get in the elevator going down
- with us.
- And I can still see this boy, about ten-years-old, complete
- silence in the elevator.
- He looks at me and he said, "If you were my son,
- I'd wish you dead."
- That was with two ministers, and one of them being his father,
- right there.
- We couldn't-- we couldn't believe it.
- You know, isn't that Christian?
- And to bring a child up.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: And that's what he's hearing from his father.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah, to bring a child.
- And we walked out of there and said, "My god, what are world's
- out there."
- Yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Did you ever go to another--
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Oh, no.
- They wouldn't-- that wouldn't keep me from going.
- I had spent so many years in a Catholic education,
- Catholic environment, and I had never even seen hatred
- like this in my faith tradition.
- I'm sure there are people who expressed that, too.
- Were misguided.
- So, yeah.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I'd like to know where that boy is now.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: You what?
- Oh.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I'd like to know where that little boy is now.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: I've often thought
- where is that boy today.
- And think of it, he'd be forty-years-old easily.
- God.
- You wonder what burden he's had to carry or had to get rid of.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So let's back up a little bit.
- When the Gay Liberation Front split,
- and you kind of went off with the men, tell me,
- what happened next?
- What were the primary goals or missions that--
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah, once again I never
- registered much of that myself, even in a time--
- or a time frame or a progress made with some issue.
- Because for me, it was I was there and after--
- when I did go to a meeting, it'd go off in somebody's house.
- Or you might go out and have a drink at the bar.
- And it was social.
- For me, it was social.
- So I wasn't really seeing it as a political--
- although I was certainly aware things were happening.
- So we really weren't--
- I can't even think of any issues that got a lot of publicity
- back in that time.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Were there issues with the police?
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Well, they were a presence, definitely.
- I never felt intimidated by them.
- I saw them come into Jim's bar, especially--
- I mean, I remember them coming into North Street
- and coming in, being there.
- And I had no idea--
- I never saw anybody arrested.
- I think that would have all been pre my being out
- in the early '70s.
- Still was going on probably.
- Yeah
- Now, as far as things that were going on out
- in public, that shouldn't be, you know,
- sex acts in parks and stuff like that.
- I don't know anything about that,
- except that I knew there was patrols.
- I can remember, it was almost embarrassing.
- The police had a sort of a liaison, started to have
- a liaison, with the community.
- And they alerted the Alliance that the problem down in Durand
- Eastman.
- And to announce, they show publish it, and tell people.
- They said they even had people in a car on that road
- and said, don't go down there.
- The police are down there and there will be arrests.
- These people still went down.
- I just-- where I'm coming from, I just
- could not understand that.
- So I really don't--
- I really can't say from experience
- about police arrests.
- But I had a very interesting experience.
- It happens I knew a fellow.
- Indirectly, our families knew each other.
- And even though they didn't socialize that much,
- we crossed paths.
- My mother worked for the company where the family owned,
- and I would see some of these kids occasionally.
- Well, we grow up and I know of young Frank Carroll
- Jr., whose nickname was Doozer because his father was
- Frank Carroll, Sr. My mother worked for him.
- So I'm getting ready to fly to San Francisco on my way
- to Vietnam.
- And I have a layover in the airport.
- My mother says, "Call Frank's son.
- He's in the Air Force in San Francisco."
- I get off the plane.
- I give him a call.
- I reach him.
- He's in his office on the base.
- He says, "Stay right where you are.
- I know right where you are."
- I told him how I sat at some bar in the airport.
- So Frank Jr. comes and we had three, four drinks.
- And when I got on that plane, I was--
- I just slept.
- But we had a wonderful conversation.
- I didn't know anything about him.
- But we just had a great rapport.
- I'm not out.
- I don't know anything about young Frank.
- So I get back.
- It's about five years later, I go to a party in Brighton.
- Taken by another other friend.
- There's Frank.
- He's actually live-- sharing this apartment in Brighton
- with a fellow.
- And I said, "Frank, you remember me?"
- He couldn't place me.
- So we played a game.
- So I told him who I was and, of course,
- we both laughed, because here we--
- he was gay in California in the Air Force.
- But I was in the Marines and I was heading to Vietnam.
- And, you know, I didn't know my sexual--
- I hadn't accepted my sexuality at that point in life.
- So time goes on.
- Young Frank moves to California.
- And every time he'd come back to Rochester,
- he'd stop and see me at my home in Brighton.
- And we'd have some drinks, and talk,
- and he used to say, "Oh, sell this house.
- Quit your job at Kodak.
- Come out to West Hollywood.
- He said, it's just wonderful.
- Everybody's gay, and you know, it's not--
- it's not--" and I said, "Oh, yeah, sure, Frank."
- But Frank tells me a story, it sheds insight into the police.
- His father not only was Secretary Treasurer
- of his company that the family owned.
- But his father was police chief in the town of Gates.
- Republican.
- The police, he tells me this later on,
- the police had informed his father
- by taking license plates numbers and tracking
- who these people were.
- His father found out.
- And he said his father called him down in the basement,
- because he wanted to talk to him about something.
- And his father said, "You know, have you
- been going to the gay bars that have been reported to me?"
- And he said, "Yeah."
- And instead of discussing it, and he
- said his father just hauled off and punched him.
- Can you imagine?
- I mean, just the pain of him telling me that.
- I thought, god, my father--
- my father would never have handled anything like that.
- It's just amazing.
- Was never-- so there is where police informed on people who
- were not doing anything wrong.
- So.
- EVELYN BAILEY: But you saw that same reaction
- in that city hall chamber?
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah.
- Yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And when--
- what effect did that have on you?
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Well, it's sobering.
- But at the same token, you cannot let that consume you.
- I mean, you can't.
- You can't let it turn you inside out to the point
- that you can't function.
- But you have to be very much aware of the fact
- that there are people, even today, that
- don't have any qualms of conscience
- of doing harmful things.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Were you afraid after that point?
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: No, I can't say I was.
- I was always cautious though.
- I was always guarded, definitely.
- Definitely always guarded.
- Yeah.
- At the time that Frank told me the story, young Frank,
- about his father, and of course his father
- is dead at this time.
- And gee, just amazing.
- So I can't say I was scared from hearing it.
- But I was disappointed having known Mr. Carroll.
- And my mother, having worked for him in the office.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- Were you and your friends after that city council meeting--
- obviously, you were cautious, but did it
- change the way in which you lived
- your quote unquote "gay life?"
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: No.
- No.
- No.
- Just made me more determined that I
- wasn't going to back down.
- I wasn't going to be ashamed of who I was.
- Really, wow.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: How about your work environment at Kodak?
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Well I worked with wonderful people
- and even though I didn't hide anything,
- they knew I lived with a gentlemen.
- So it was--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Was here a Lambda Network?
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah, it was just starting
- and it probably was in existence the last ten years
- that I was there.
- See, I've been gone sixteen years now.
- And I left I was fifty-two.
- So, and I wasn't part of it.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: But--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: It would have started around '93.
- '92-'93.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Oh, did it?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah, that's right.
- It was relatively new.
- Yeah.
- Yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: You know, we
- mentioned earlier David Cosell.
- Is he still at Kodak by any--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, he's in Atlanta.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: In Atlanta.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Wonderful.
- Yeah.
- Yeah.
- Yeah.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: He was hoping to retire last year,
- but every year he goes to retire, they--
- it's like you said, they changed the points or whatever,
- so it's like, oh, I've got to stay another year.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So then through the rest
- of the '70s and the 1980s, and just talk to me about your life
- and the kind of things you were involved with.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Oh, well, gee, of course my partner,
- and now spouse as of October 1st,
- Steve Juros we've been together twenty-four years.
- So I had a relationship for six years from basically 1972
- to '78 with with Rob Goodling.
- You might know Rob.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yes, so then it
- was a few years in between that I was on my own.
- I lived in Brighton.
- And Rob lived with me in Brighton for a period of time,
- but he eventually moved back into the city.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Were you at Kodak still?
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: I was with Kodak,
- yes, I was with Kodak all those working years.
- Twenty-seven.
- So, god, yeah.
- And it wasn't a great environment the last nine
- years, only because there was constant downsizing.
- And it seemed that there was one time every six months
- to a year I had a new manager.
- And some of them were clueless what you did.
- You were in another building.
- But they were trying to justify why
- some people were managers at putting more people under them.
- And then we had the business philosophy training session
- every so often.
- That was our philosophy or something,
- you had to come in on weekends to go to special training.
- So it was not a pleasant environment.
- And then we had--
- they had contract people coming in.
- We had some wonderful contract people work in our department.
- They were smart.
- They learned fast, because we were in computer systems.
- They were such an asset to us.
- More so than some people that we had
- and you couldn't get them to do another darn thing
- or you couldn't get rid of them.
- And the contract people, their two years would be up,
- and they'd think they were going to get hired.
- And they were done.
- I mean these corporate mentality--
- these decisions.
- I remember going to a boss and saying, why would
- we get rid of this--
- Why would we get rid of this talented person?
- Why did you-- why did you make this decision?
- And she said to me, "I did not want to.
- I was told I had to."
- And so when that starts to happen,
- you realize that you're going down a long slope.
- I just felt as--
- when I was working there many years ago,
- that there was something going out of Kodak that was--
- did not bode well for it.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Were you and your partner in--
- did you go to gay events?
- Did you go to the Gay Men's Chorus?
- Did you go to the Sweetheart Ball?
- Did you go to the HPA when that was--
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Oh, yes.
- Definitely. -- We've yes, we've been to many of those things,
- yes.
- Can't say we've ever been to a Sweetheart Ball or a Pride
- event here in the Convention Center.
- EVELYN BAILEY: OK.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: But we've been on the bus
- to Albany twice to see the State Assembly and State
- Senator, which I always found absolutely frustrating.
- But you had to make a presence.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And did Steve also work at Kodak?
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: No, Steve worked
- for the New York State Department
- of Developmentally Disabled.
- That's on Westfall Road.
- It's now called the Finger Lakes DDSO.
- So.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Wow.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah, he was there thirty-one years,
- maybe.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Wow.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: That's a very heavy job, I think.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: I mean--
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Well, he started out
- as a Special Ed teacher.
- Then he was a BOCES dir--
- he directed some of the teachers and programs.
- And I think it was Suspend Support BOCES many years ago.
- And they might be BOCES-1 out there.
- I'm not sure what that number is.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Two.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Two, OK.
- And then he basically left the area to go to Georgia.
- He thought he wanted some community life.
- That was very attractive to him.
- When he got down there, he realized was a big mistake.
- And he burned all those bridges, so he went back home in Albany
- to live with his parents.
- And it took about six months, and he got a job offer
- from State to come in.
- So he came back to Rochester and continued on to work.
- So his state service was broken up.
- He was in North Country, Canton, New York,
- working with the BOCES programs there.
- And of course, he started out as Special Ed,
- but when he was actually finished with the State,
- he was doing training.
- Bringing everybody up.
- You know, there are so many state regulations.
- As far as what people had to--
- EVELYN BAILEY: When, or did you, come out your parents?
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Oh.
- Yeah. (Laughs)
- EVELYN BAILEY: I mean just a--
- another blip in the--
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: My mother was--
- I used to go home, and if my father
- wasn't working on a weekend at Kodak,
- I had lunch with them both every Saturday.
- And I was in and out anyways because I wasn't far away.
- We always had a great relationship.
- One day, one Saturday afternoon, I
- was just there with my mother.
- And I said, "Gee, Mom, I've got to go.
- And I've got to pick up a friend, Bruce."
- And I said, "We're going to an antique show."
- And my mother is sitting across the table like you,
- and she said, "You seem to be going out with a lot of men
- lately."
- (Laughs) And I said, "Yes, Mom, I am."
- And that's where I left it.
- So, it was so funny though.
- She accepted it over time.
- And never, never said anything negative.
- But one time, she said, "ell, I always thought you were."
- Mothers know a lot.
- She knew.
- And she said, "I hoped you weren't.
- I hoped you weren't."
- But it wasn't any great--
- she had met many gay friends.
- she very fond of Rob for all those years.
- Yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And your father?
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Well, my dad was indirect in many ways.
- And he was always there, always analyzing everything.
- When he would find something out,
- it was already pretty well made up his mind.
- So, it was one time we were at a cocktail party, mostly
- gay people.
- It was after a recital at the Eastman School of Music
- and it was at somebody's house.
- And I was friends with the fellow
- that done his doctoral recital.
- So, it was full.
- I mean, that professor that was there was gay,
- and lots of gay people.
- And there were two gay women.
- They got talking to my mom and dad.
- And this is crowded and loud.
- So they had just come back on the Queen Elizabeth
- from Europe and they said they had gone and they'd had a--
- they celebrated doing this trip because they
- had a union ceremony.
- And of course, I hear them talking to my--
- and so, as they filtered around the room, I said to my mother,
- "Now, you know what a union ceremony is, don't you?"
- And she said, "Certainly I do."
- And I said, "Well, well then, you
- understand there's a lot of gay people here
- that are friends of mine."
- She said, "Sure, they're wonderful."
- And she said, "Don't tell your father."
- So, now my father is standing right where you are.
- And he just goes, winks, like to say, ah, your mother,
- she's too much.
- But you know, they were from an era
- where sexual things, especially something like homosexuality,
- didn't get discussed.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Wow.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Gee.
- I can understand where they were coming from.
- So they were learning a lot slower than those of us who
- were coming out or were out in and were
- accepting our sexuality.
- So, but I really did have very supportive parents.
- Never, never a moment of issue or upset or anything.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.
- Was there one particular incident, or event,
- or situation that you can think of that maybe
- really had a significant impact of who you had become?
- Let me ask that a little bit more clearly.
- In the years and the coming out experience over
- the years with the Gay Alliance and whatever,
- anything come to mind, a particular event,
- that that really kind of hit home with you?
- Had an impact on who you are today
- or had an impact on your outlook on life back then?
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Hm.
- I don't see anything--
- nothing jumps out that I would say put a positive spin on.
- There were all these things that add up
- that were negative towards you.
- While they didn't make me negative,
- they certainly were moments of awakening.
- But I mean, I can't say any particular individual
- or events.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Let's go back to the very first time
- that you walked into a meeting for the Gay Liberation.
- What was going through your head?
- And what were you hoping to find?
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah, well, I mean, you've got to remember,
- I had never been--
- I had been around gay people, even in the seminary,
- but nobody ever admitted they were gay.
- So I mean, I'm basically going into a world
- where there were people who were happy to be gay and lesbian,
- and knew it, and weren't going to back down for anybody.
- In some respects, it probably was like I was walk--
- I was going into a subculture, a cafe society,
- whatever you want to call it.
- It was exciting in many respects.
- It was-- you had to--
- there was a mystery to it and there was--
- because of the fact that it was clandestine,
- it was an illicit world.
- But I didn't fear that.
- Not at all.
- Because what I had been through with being depressed, and being
- alone, and not having intimacy in my life,
- even though I had a wonderful family, that was really scary.
- To think I would live my life like that.
- Or get to feel like that.
- Being depressed.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So at the end of that first meeting and you're
- on your way home, how did you feel?
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Oh, wonderful.
- Yeah.
- Yeah.
- Definitely.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Did you have any kind of vision, then,
- about this is where I can--
- this is the next direction I can take in my life.
- Right.
- Did it answer questions for you?
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Oh, yeah, I think
- it answered a lot of questions.
- Only the fact that I was--
- I continued to meet people and socialize with them.
- And I don't mean jumping in or out of bed.
- EVELYN BAILEY: No.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Definitely not.
- Because it was just wonderful to be able to go
- places and do things.
- I mean, I had my relationships.
- Don't get me wrong.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Back then, in your mind,
- why did you think something like the Gay Liberation Front
- was even an important thing to have for this community?
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Why did I think-- oh, my god.
- You know, I just remember how isolated I was.
- And couldn't find out anything about my sexuality.
- I didn't know whom I'd even mention it to,
- because God forbid you'd be taken off
- to some horrible place or yelled at.
- I didn't feel safe--
- outside of the confessional, I did not
- feel safe bringing up anything.
- In the seminary, you had a regular confessor.
- I don't know why you--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: --you had a regular confessor,
- because most of them were old priests who came over
- from Aquinas and heard confessions and, you know,
- and I remember going to confession
- after somebody had been coming into my room
- at St. Bernard Seminary.
- A man who's still a good friend.
- I was extremely uncomfortable with it.
- He was taking liberties.
- And, of course, if he got caught in that room,
- we both would have been dismissed immediately,
- because it was a strict rule.
- You never stepped over the threshold
- of another student's room.
- They never told you why, but that was why.
- Because it's--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Was this an older man or same age?
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: He was my classmate.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Classmate.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah.
- So I was very upset about it and I actually told my friend,
- I said, "You can't be getting into bed with me."
- So I mentioned it to my confessor,
- thinking I would get some direction, some help.
- He said, "Oh, don't worry about that."
- He said, "It's nothing.: I'm ready to have
- a nervous breakdown (laughs) and my spiritual confessor
- says, "Oh."
- So, what do I do?
- I go to see the very spiritual director of the seminary,
- that's his role, his position.
- And have a chat with him.
- He's very nice.
- And he said, "I will call the gentleman in
- and I will talk to him and I'll tell him you're very upset."
- That was the last-- my friend did
- come to apologize for building up all this anxiety in me.
- And so, I don't know how we got to talking about that.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Well--
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: I mean, so getting back
- to this organization.
- Oh, I think it--
- you know, I read all the different programs you have.
- You're going out speaking.
- Wow.
- We never had anything like that.
- Even in the seminary, you wouldn't get decent orientation
- or introduction to sexual--
- human sexuality.
- EVELYN BAILEY: So part of what I hear you saying
- is when you found the Gay Liberation
- Front your sense of safety, being unafraid,
- was like you weren't any longer--
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Right.
- EVELYN BAILEY: --in that environment.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: I wasn't, I wasn't alone anymore.
- I had these people so it was wonderful.
- I mean, who became your friends.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And you felt safe?
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yes.
- Mhm.
- Yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Some people have described that experience
- as coming home.
- As recognizing within the group that sense of family,
- but more than family, because--
- huh?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: An extended family.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Oh, yes.
- Definitely.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Oh, yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Because you have connections
- that go far beyond--
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yes.
- EVELYN BAILEY: --just relationship.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Right.
- And there's an added dimension to that for me, too.
- Because I'm a native to the city.
- And I go out and socialize and I'm
- meeting people who I recognize from church, even school.
- I mean, it's wonderful to be in Provincetown
- and go into a piano bar and there's
- a fellow who was a year behind you in the seminary.
- Who you knew very well.
- And you sit and you reminisce and you
- talk about all the nonsense that went on, that, of course,
- you wouldn't even be aware of, because it
- was a pretty strict world.
- And so, it was an added dimension.
- You talk about coming home.
- Yes.
- Wow.
- You really-- all of a sudden, you're
- with your brothers and your sisters.
- I mean, that's very true.
- I still feel that way.
- Strongly.
- EVELYN BAILEY: So what, in your mind,
- was the significant contribution that the Gay Liberation
- Front made to Rochester?
- Not just the University campus, but to Rochester.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Oh, I think it's
- been a great education for the community.
- Because it's been out there, definitely.
- Yeah.
- I mean, there's so many other things that
- have spun off over the years.
- You've got to remember that the Gay Liberation and the Gay
- Alliance, they were in there with the groundwork.
- Wow.
- I mean, when you think of everything that's
- happened since, positive or negative, I mean, of course,
- the AIDS epidemic.
- I've lost a first cousin to AIDS who was four years younger
- than I, and I grew up with him.
- I never knew he was gay until I'm
- laying on the beach in Provincetown,
- and I see a guy coming along, two men coming along,
- and I said, "My god, that one guy I know from Kodak."
- And I was so fixated on the guy from Kodak in my building,
- it wasn't until they walked by I realized
- that he was with my cousin.
- (Laughs) So I followed them down the beach.
- And dropped down when they got to their blanket
- and said hello.
- Amazing.
- But anyways, my cousin, he went to the West Coast.
- And, of course, I must tell you that young Frank, who I spoke
- of earlier, also died of AIDS.
- He was home visiting his mother one holiday time, my mother,
- I was over visiting and having lunch.
- And she said, "Young Frank came home to see his mother.
- He's at St. Mary's Hospital.
- You know, he's better.
- He's out."
- And when I asked her what did he have?
- When she told me, encephalitis-type
- inflammation of the brain.
- And I said, "Oh man," I said, "I'm awfully afraid,
- but I think Frank is ill with AIDS."
- His family, and my widowed aunt, you never could mention AIDS.
- I went to Memorial mass for young Frank
- that was held in the chapel at St. Mary's, because he
- died on the West Coast.
- And I spoke to his mother.
- She looked at me as they came in.
- She didn't recognize me.
- She didn't know we were friends.
- She said, "I didn't know you knew Frank."
- And of course, we all called him Doozer.
- And all I said to her was, "Doozer and I
- were very good friends, special friends."
- And all I had to do was say that word, special,
- and she turned around and went to talk to somebody else.
- Never said one more word to me.
- So I stayed for the mass and I left.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Wow.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah, amazing.
- My aunt, right in the funeral parlor,
- you could not even mention the word
- that my cousin that died in California and died of AIDS.
- I had first cousins calling me from Leroy and Batavia,
- saying, "Marvin, tell us, did Jimmy die of AIDS?"
- And I said, "Yes, he did."
- But I said, "Aunt Mary didn't want it even to be mentioned."
- God, isn't that amazing?
- So great amount of education from the Gay Alliance.
- And especially for--
- I can't imagine if people are gay today, being so isolated.
- Because there's publicity.
- There's coverage.
- There's programs.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Well--
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: There's public relations.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: They still have the family to deal with.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yes.
- Yes.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: They still have the family to deal with.
- Yeah.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Some families are supportive and open
- and others--
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Oh, oh.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: --are like Frank's father.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And the other thing
- is in cities, it's one thing.
- But in rural America, I think it has not
- changed for the past sixty or seventy years.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Right.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Because the isolation is built in.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: That's right,
- and you just don't have that experience with diversity.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- Right.
- But in hearing you talk, and in hearing you say and comment
- on your experience of people turning away, of shutting you
- up, of not wanting to hear the word gay or homosexual
- or special or AIDS, the environment,
- the society as a whole during that time
- was still not a welcoming place, even here in Rochester.
- And so from when you were sixteen,
- seventeen, seminary, to today, what has changed?
- What has-- what's different today that allows you to come
- and share your story here?
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Well, I just
- think it's because people are more aware.
- Definitely.
- I mean, I'm certainly--
- I'm not going to be hiding someplace.
- I refuse to.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Why?
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Because I'm me.
- Definitely.
- I have to say, we all have known rejection,
- being gay men and lesbian women, god forbid
- if you are transgendered.
- So I mean, that's even a tougher road for so many.
- But we've also had tremendous positive support
- from people around us where we never expected it.
- It just came to us.
- We never asked for it.
- It was there.
- I mean, just when Steven and I got married,
- people who just came out of the woodwork and sent cards
- and called.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, let me ask you that.
- Did you ever expect that you'd ever get married?
- Legally.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: We always said
- we would if we got it in New York state.
- But we weren't-- you just didn't know what this recent years--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: You were together
- with Steve for, what did you say, twenty-one, twenty-six?
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Twenty-four.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Twenty-four years?
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Right.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I mean, twenty-two years ago,
- would it have even ever crossed your mind--
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: No.
- No.
- No.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: --that marriage would ever
- be in the cards for you guys?
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: No.
- Yeah.
- We have European friends who, in England,
- who have had their legal--
- they don't have a marriage in England, but they have a--
- oh, I forget what they call it now, but they did it.
- So an ex-relationship of mine in London,
- he actually invited us to come over when he had his
- with a friend in London.
- We didn't go.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, let me ask you this,
- what is life like now, as a retired, married couple?
- You know?
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: It is not any different.
- I said to Steven--
- well, we both agree--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: But I mean, I'm asking
- from the standpoint of like your involvement
- with the overall gay community.
- I mean, you have to imagine it's different than it
- was twenty-four years ago.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: You mean, our involvement?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Is marriage--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, forty years later now,
- from when you first came out to the first Gay Liberation
- meeting, and compare that to how you live your life now.
- You know, as a married man.
- As are you still actively involved in the gay community?
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Oh, I am not a participator,
- much like my partner, Stephen, is.
- He gets very involved in all kinds of-- he's
- on boards of Isaiah House and does
- constant training wherever they can get the NCBI group to go in
- do diversity training and conflict resolution.
- I'm not that type.
- I participate, support, so you made a reference earlier
- that Steve gave a check.
- Well, we funnel it through him, because of how we do our taxes.
- So for federal reasons.
- You can bleep that out.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I'm not the IRS.
- Nobody'll care.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Would you say that you
- are happier, more secure, more content, with your life
- today than you were in that seminary,
- in Vietnam, in Rochester when you came back,
- in your first relationship?
- From the perspective of your growth and your movement,
- not necessarily because you're with a partner that can help
- you feel that way.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Oh, yes.
- Definitely.
- Oh, sure.
- Sure.
- I am much more happy and secure.
- If I have anything I'm not happy about it's
- the fact that until the last few years of my life all we've
- experienced is wars, and poverty,
- and injustice, and still racism, those things are ongoing.
- So but yes, as far as myself, personally, oh, my god, yeah.
- I can't even compare my life today to seminary or military.
- So, wow.
- The seminary was a wonderful, wonderful liberal arts
- education, with emphasis on the classics, wow, philosophy
- and it was just--
- I always said it was just like I've
- gone to Oxford or Cambridge.
- It was tremendous.
- Small group of very smart people and wonderful, dedicated
- professors.
- Most of them were wonderful.
- There were a couple that we could
- have thrown in the river gorge.
- So anyway, and I'm rambling, but--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, that brings up a question.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Sure.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: It's going to be a kind of difficult question
- to ask, but I kind of want to ask it like this.
- Why do you feel you've been so lucky in life?
- Because you've come to this point where you're
- in a great relationship, you've got a great positive attitude
- about life, not many people have that kind of luck.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah, I suppose.
- Can we blame it on genes?
- Can we blame it on education?
- And family life?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: And I hate to say it,
- but there's a lot of old, angry queens out there.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: And they're still angry for some reason.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Which I don't get from you at all.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: You know, I mean,
- you seem like once you came out and you
- found that the group to socialize with,
- that was your life.
- And you're going to make the best of it.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: If there's anything I'm very happy about,
- it's the fact that I probably did stay in the seminary
- as long as I did.
- Because if I had quit, and gone to say Brockport
- or another college, I would've been
- exposed to many, many more distractions
- in life that would have distracted me from study.
- So I did have an experience of being
- really-- it might have been within a monastery
- in those days.
- I had a curfew even when I lived at home.
- I had permission to be out after 7:30.
- So, did I evade that question?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, it was kind of an odd question
- to begin with.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Compare yourself to so many
- other mature individuals that are out there who
- have not had it so--
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yes, I--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: --so happily.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: I have a close friend,
- he's trapped in his negative life.
- Trapped absolutely.
- Wow.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, we all know those kind of people.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah, in fact,
- it's quite heavy to be around him
- for any great length of time, even though I do
- manage to do things with him.
- He's right here in Rochester, in his seventies, gay.
- But it's a combination of experiences
- he's had with family, only child,
- and he didn't always have a--
- mother and father that were pitted against each other.
- So I mean, I didn't have any of that.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: And an extended family, neighborhood.
- EVELYN BAILEY: So let me ask you if you
- were to extract out of your life the counsel of whom
- you saw here in Rochester, what would have happened to you?
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: You're speaking of the--
- you said the counsel?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: You mean the--
- EVELYN BAILEY: The counselor.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: The therapist.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Pardon me?
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: The therapist at Strong.
- EVELYN BAILEY: The therapist at Strong.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah.
- Oh.
- EVELYN BAILEY: If you had not sought out that help,
- or if no one with his skill or with his ability
- had been in your life, where would you be?
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: I probably would have--
- it would have been a lot tougher.
- First of all, it was a woman.
- And she was a psychotherapist at Strong.
- She worked under a psychiatrist.
- So and her name escapes me now.
- And I know she's retired.
- It would have been just much more
- difficult not to have been able to have
- had that chance with somebody who was so supportive
- and gave you a sounding board.
- Didn't direct me, but just let me--
- I can go through that.
- How it came about.
- I told you I was depressed and to the point
- that I broke down when I was home alone,
- living with my family.
- And I said to myself, you need help.
- And I went and I called what they had,
- a crisis line, and I spoke to somebody on that line
- and it was very, very emotional.
- They set me up an appointment, because they knew talking to me
- that I wasn't going to take my life,
- but I just, I said, "I just need to talk to somebody."
- I think her name was Mrs. Melanies.
- So I go.
- That was really a scary thing, to go to this psychiatric wing
- at Strong Memorial Hospital.
- And I was sitting in a room, and she came out
- to the waiting room, introduced herself.
- She said, "Now, don't be scared."
- She said, "You're going to go into a conference room
- and there's going to be a couple of psychiatrists
- and nurses and myself."
- And she said, "If you have a hard time talking to anybody,
- look directly at me when you're interviewed."
- And it went very nice.
- Very well.
- And she was assigned to me.
- And I would occasionally meet with a psychiatrist,
- it was a wonderful, supportive group.
- So it wasn't like anybody was trying to convince me I wasn't.
- And she told me that after that half an hour
- or whatever it was that I was interviewed
- by everybody around this long table,
- that nobody had any doubt from what
- I said and answered about me and my life what I was about.
- I was gay.
- And she would tell me that eventually.
- So they worked, that's what they worked.
- And then, of course, the psychiatrist
- got involved, because I'd have to see him.
- And I went every week, and then, of course,
- after a period of time I went every two weeks.
- And I just had to--
- I'd go in the evening and I just basically had to say,
- well, I was going someplace.
- Because I basically kept my therapy private.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Sure.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: To this day,
- I don't even know if my parents ever--
- if I ever even told them that I went.
- But I'm very open about having therapy,
- because I think it was--
- there are times when people do need somebody to sort things
- out for them.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Half the battle is just getting it out
- of yourself.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Exactly, that's
- what it was for me, truly.
- That was the watershed for me in my life.
- Tremendous watershed.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And if you had not made the phone call--
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: --it would not have happened.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: It would have just been more, and more,
- and more agony and--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Isolation.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah.
- Yeah.
- You've got to remember, my coming out
- at that particular age wasn't unusual for me,
- because of the fact that I'd been in the seminary program,
- through college, and then I was in the military.
- So, everything was always pushed aside.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Right.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I have no other questions.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Well, thank you.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: Well, thank you.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Very much.
- MARVIN RITZENTHALER: It was easier
- than I thought it would be.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, it was just
- this is our chance to get to know you a little bit better,
- and know some of the things that you could speak to,
- so if we decide to maybe do an on-camera interview.
- (Recording ends)