Audio Interview, Mike, 1974

  • MIKE: At that time early in my life, or earlier than honestly
  • ten years ago like that, I felt like I
  • had tried to identify with these super violent men.
  • With Hell's Angels, with, you know, Wyatt Earp--
  • not Wyatt Earp--
  • Jesse James and the outlaw image, the very masculine men.
  • And up until a little short time ago, maybe a year,
  • maybe in that, I was still really intense into that.
  • Now, the way I feel about it was that I
  • was looking for a man image, because I felt that I had none.
  • So I grew up--
  • I was always mommy.
  • I grew up like with all women consistently around me
  • like that, you know?
  • And so this was like the most masculine thing there was out,
  • was this real, virile, hard guy, fighter, drinker.
  • INTERVIEWER 2: You got this image after your father left?
  • MIKE: No, that was like, well, I grew up-- my early years
  • until I was like four years old on,
  • I lived, me, my mother, it was my grandmother
  • and my grandfather.
  • And my aunt and my cousin, both female, man, and my cousin's
  • a girl too.
  • I was consistently surrounded with women in the house
  • at all times like that, you know?
  • My grandfather was older like that
  • and he was a rummy at that time.
  • He drank a lot like that.
  • So, what I figure is what happened
  • myself is that when I started coming to realize these things
  • I was looking for, like, a man image or a father image
  • or something like that to copy.
  • This is what I went for, was the most outspoken, violent thing
  • that I could get a hold of at that time.
  • And in the late sixties and middle sixties
  • the Hell's Angels were in full swing,
  • everybody was denim, leather, swastika.
  • At least that's the way I saw it, you know?
  • And that's what I went after.
  • And I could never reach that fucking point.
  • It's really so bizarre.
  • I had all the trappings.
  • I had this Iron Cross around my neck
  • and I had the cut-off denim and I had the gang's name
  • on the back, Rogues Incorporated, Lovejoy
  • in Buffalo, New York.
  • And it was a big suit.
  • I used to love wearing that, man.
  • Just the way people would look at me.
  • Oh, look, there goes a man.
  • (Mike laughs)
  • And it was really true.
  • That's the way it really was, you know?
  • Because I could go in any place and like
  • I knew what was going on inside me and I wasn't what
  • was portrayed.
  • And yet, I could go in a place like that
  • and I could give off enough show that people wouldn't bother.
  • It was a mutual agreement that other rough guys do not
  • hassle this rough guy too.
  • It was mutually like that.
  • Just don't mess with that guy, he's a bad motherfucker.
  • And I was never--
  • these people started picking up this.
  • Other people started seeing me as that mask.
  • It was so bizarre like that.
  • And then like a legend grew up, you know.
  • I don't remember, I was in a fight in I think seventh grade,
  • and I wasn't in another fight for maybe four years.
  • But here I was, big, running around like that.
  • A lot of strange people would say like outside,
  • they didn't know me like that, they would really think that I
  • was really a hard, nasty thing.
  • You know, here's these guys, street corner guys.
  • And I was never really that.
  • I tried, after I got out of high school, I tried--
  • it even got more intense for some reason.
  • I really went nuts.
  • I didn't wear shoes for a year.
  • I wore consistent cowboy boots for like eighteen months.
  • I didn't even own a pair of shoes.
  • It was always boots, boots, boots.
  • You know?
  • It was always black denim pants, always black t-shirt,
  • had a big truckers wallet hanging out
  • with the chain on it, the belt, I used to wear
  • the skull, the cat skull all the time.
  • It was just a big joke.
  • And what happened, I think, is I started to believe the image,
  • and that's where I really got into trouble because I couldn't
  • keep up with what I thought I was,
  • or what I wanted to be, or identify with.
  • And that was a big hassle.
  • INTERVIEWER 2: What was it, again, that you definitely
  • wanted to identify with?
  • MIKE: I wanted to identify, I think,
  • with a masculine image of what a man is.
  • And I felt like--
  • INTERVIEWER 2: Did you try like in all ways?
  • MIKE: No, I don't think so.
  • I don't know where I am there.
  • INTERVIEWER 2: OK, well you're talking
  • about being really masculine.
  • So did that also go into, like-- what was your relationships
  • in high school?
  • I mean, besides like with the guys?
  • Did the other image go into your relationships
  • with women that you met?
  • MIKE: Yeah, they did.
  • And they always consistently found me out too.
  • INTERVIEWER 2: Well, why don't you explain what happened?
  • MIKE: Well, I say, you know, like how could
  • the immortal, masculine, mucho macho man,
  • how could he lower himself to love a woman?
  • You know, because women were always
  • sex objects in our group.
  • They were nothing else, they had no minds, nothing.
  • It was always like, broads.
  • It was never women or girls or anything,
  • it was always broads like that and it's really hard.
  • If you're trying to portray something you're not,
  • how are you going to portray it that way?
  • I got really messed up all through those hangups
  • like that.
  • You know, I just couldn't come out.
  • It was another--
  • I was suppressed in all these ways.
  • These social pressures and pressures from home
  • like that, they really messed--
  • I can't explain it yet myself.
  • INTERVIEWER 2: Well, why don't you
  • give a particular example of a relationship
  • and how did the conflict (unintelligible)?
  • I mean, you tried to love a particular woman
  • and it would get involved-- it would get tangled up because?
  • MIKE: It was because of having to play
  • the role, of having to act like someone I wasn't like that.
  • I would consistently fuck it up.
  • And I think I chose also people who I would want
  • to have relationships with.
  • I would choose people who would like maybe would supposedly
  • jive with that, and yet didn't.
  • I want to see if I can put that better.
  • (pause) I felt I chose people who I felt
  • were, say, the ideal person for the ultra masculine man.
  • You know?
  • Like the chick with the cut-off jacket, right?
  • And it turns out that these people are playing roles too.
  • You've got two people playing roles
  • and all you've got is shit.
  • At least that's the way I felt, you know?
  • It was really hard for me to carry on a serious--
  • have a serious relationship, a long-term one.
  • I still don't have long-term relationships
  • because I always hit and run.
  • It's really-- I can't get over that.
  • I blew so many beautiful, beautiful women
  • with beautiful heads like that by playing the game.
  • I could kick myself sometimes when I think back and say,
  • Jesus, you know, I could have had a really in-depth,
  • intense relationship with this woman,
  • but I fucked it up because I was playing someone I wasn't.
  • And that's really different.
  • I don't know.
  • I don't know, it was just a lot of pressure too from like--
  • I don't want to put too much pressure on my--
  • from home like that, but I think that's got a lot to do with it.
  • I really do.
  • Like I was telling Paul before, it
  • was a total matriarchal society there in my house.
  • Grandma was boss, Mama listened to Grandma,
  • and Grandpa had nothing to say, and there was Mikey.
  • And Auntie came over with little girl cousin and here it is.
  • I think I thought that I was being feminized like that,
  • so I took hold of the most masculine thing I could find.
  • INTERVIEWER 1: You had to.
  • MIKE: Well, I had to, right?
  • Or did I have to?
  • I don't know, I don't think so.
  • INTERVIEWER 1: Well, you had to have some identity.
  • MIKE: Yeah.
  • So this is what I tried to identify with.
  • And yet, it fell through like that.
  • INTERVIEWER 1: Well, it might have
  • been the best thing you could have done at the time.
  • MIKE: Yeah, but I shouldn't have had
  • to go through all those years and years of shit.
  • INTERVIEWER 2: Right.
  • MIKE: Right, I blew so many things.
  • So many good things.
  • I could have really enjoyed myself
  • doing by hanging out and putting on the big show.
  • What else do you want me to get into?
  • INTERVIEWER 2: How do you feel about yourself now?
  • I mean, do you think that you play any games now?
  • MIKE: Yeah, in a way, I'm still caught up in that--
  • not as much as before, and I recognize it now
  • and I kick it down--
  • of trying to identify with other people and doing what
  • other people would do in order to get their acceptance.
  • I find myself still doing that on certain occasions like that.
  • But I don't think it's-- it's not as intense as it was at one
  • time.
  • Like, I couldn't go any place just myself,
  • I always went like the other person.
  • Like I was saying before the tape,
  • I had all these social pressures on me.
  • And I--
  • INTERVIEWER 2: Why don't you explain that about the gang?
  • About the fights?
  • How you got dumped?
  • MIKE: Oh, yeah.
  • I was talking before about when I was playing
  • my role as hard guy like that.
  • And the guys I'd hang around with,
  • I don't know if they were playing the role too.
  • I got a feeling that they probably were to some extent,
  • too.
  • But I don't know if they had such intensity about it or not.
  • I can remember, for instance, Carl and Artie coming
  • to my house, "Come on out.
  • There's a fight down on Walden and Bailey tonight, alright?"
  • I go, "Yeah?
  • Geez, I don't know."
  • And I'd have all these things going on in my head,
  • I don't want to go fight, I might get beat up.
  • (Mike laughs) I might lose, we might lose.
  • That would be terrible if we lost, right?
  • But yeah, then I said, if I don't go, who am I
  • going to hang out with?
  • Right, because there was nobody else.
  • Like, all my friends were in the same thing,
  • we were in the same boat.
  • So I was under that pressure of having no friends
  • or being called a cop out or chicken or pigeon or weasel.
  • Weasel was our word then, I think.
  • If you're a weasel, what good are you?
  • Where could you go, right?
  • There was no one else for me to hang out with,
  • because all my friends were in the same boat like that.
  • Or the guys I was hanging around with at that time.
  • INTERVIEWER 1: So you always went.
  • MIKE: So I went.
  • Right?
  • This is exact for instance I can remember like that, you know?
  • And I can remember walking down Walden with Carl and Artie,
  • going down there, giving ourselves the boost, the talk.
  • I can remember the things running through my head,
  • like which is the best way for me to escape?
  • How could I get out of this?
  • I've got to go to school.
  • They ain't going to believe that, they
  • got to go to school too.
  • I got homework, they ain't going to eat that shit up.
  • Look at all that garbage.
  • Forget about the homework.
  • I just couldn't get out of it, so I was there going with them.
  • Then we used to meet at Deco on Walden and Bailey.
  • And everybody's all over there with the jackets,
  • and everybody's getting geared for the fight.
  • We were fighting Genesee that night.
  • Lost Souls and Genesee.
  • So it's like fifty guys from Walden,
  • they're all around there.
  • So I was nervous.
  • I was really nervous like that.
  • And it was like if I had left--
  • well, at that time, I wasn't hanging around with Walden,
  • we were hanging around in Lovejoy and the gang
  • in Lovejoy, and Artie was a real high member,
  • he was like vice president, I think, at that time,
  • of the gang in Lovejoy like that.
  • So this was our little part of Lovejoy, helping Walden out
  • in case we needed help some other time.
  • Which is a lot of shit too, because no one ever
  • helps you out. (Mike laughs)
  • I can remember going out in Deco and meeting behind,
  • it was in Victor's store.
  • And we were all standing around.
  • All the other guys are running around, getting ready,
  • hiding pipes and chains and things like that.
  • And I was like--
  • everybody was grouping.
  • I can remember standing away from the group like that.
  • With the group, but not in the mass.
  • And then we started walking through the back streets
  • over to Genesee through Walden, through Rapin Street and Hazel
  • Street over there.
  • I can remember everybody making noises and everything
  • like that.
  • And I can remember walking towards the back of the group.
  • And there was Artie.
  • Carl was up in front.
  • I didn't even know where the hell he was.
  • And I can remember, there's this one guy walking next to me.
  • And like I said, the first time I met him, his name was Lonnie.
  • I remembered his name and everything.
  • This is like I was still in high school.
  • Like, I was seventeen or sixteen years old.
  • I can remember walking with him over there,
  • I says yeah, (unintelligible) are fighting.
  • And he goes, "Yeah, me too.
  • I live in this neighborhood, I got to--" he says to me,
  • I can remember, he says, "Yeah, I got to come to the fight.
  • I live in this neighborhood, there's
  • no place else for me to go."
  • I says, "Yeah these are all my friends too,
  • I've got to help them out like that."
  • And I can remember, we're just like walking up to--
  • we were walking up (unintelligible) to Genesee
  • and all of a sudden you hear all this noise and stuff.
  • So everybody's moving up there.
  • By the time we got up to the street there,
  • everybody was coming back across the street.
  • Everybody's running all over the place.
  • We see this one guy, Nature Boy, running up to the tracks.
  • He goes, "Nature Boy, where are you going?"
  • He goes, "I'm getting my hammer.
  • I'm going to pound a few heads in."
  • And now, everybody just dispersed.
  • And then they all came together in the same spot.
  • A couple of guys got beat up on the other side of the street.
  • There were like seven guys against fifty.
  • Fortunately, we had the fifty guys that time, you know?
  • So I remember going up to Artie and saying, "Well, Artie, I
  • came to the fight."
  • I shook his hand and said, "I've got to go now."
  • And I just took off right out of there,
  • because I was really paranoid about being busted.
  • Being arrested for assault or something like that.
  • INTERVIEWER 1: Did you take part in the fight?
  • MIKE: No, it was like over, like the first two
  • guys who were across the street got to beat everybody up
  • with the chains, and everybody just came across like that.
  • I remember saying to Artie, see Artie, we came to the fight.
  • I shook his hand and I left, and those guys stayed there.
  • Then, what I would do then, this is really
  • terrifying for me inside.
  • So then, the next thing I know, I'd be over there--
  • yeah, I went to the gang fight down in Lost Souls.
  • Yeah, I was there, man, I seen the whole thing, you know.
  • Like I was one of the first guys across the street.
  • You see that guy got smashed in the head with the chain?
  • Ha, ha, ha.
  • I know the guy who did that.
  • And I'd be playing the role then, you know?
  • Here, I didn't want to do it, and once I did it,
  • I didn't even to do it, but I was just
  • around the general vicinity, not wanting to do it.
  • I'd be bragging about it.
  • Yeah, yeah, I was at that fight.
  • We wiped out the Lost Souls.
  • Yeah, Walden and them.
  • It was so fucking ridiculous.
  • And it just went on like that.
  • And then you get those legends built up
  • about why is there the parties at my house?
  • Me and Denny used to say, yeah, we had a fire in the summer.
  • Everybody's all, big fire, wow.
  • And then you start living up to that
  • and it really becomes complicated.
  • And then you become less and less fun, you know,
  • your real self.
  • You become more fucked up, and then
  • it just like perpetuates itself, it keeps moving.
  • And then I think I started to believe what everybody's
  • telling me, and I felt that I started
  • to almost forget about my real self and become the image.
  • And that's, like, just a little bit
  • before the group started is where I
  • started to fall away from that.
  • Well, I started about maybe six or seven months
  • after I started work, which would be about eighteen
  • months ago, is when I started just to break away from that.
  • And they would be putting me somewhere.
  • I was almost twenty-one years old at that time.
  • I was twenty-one at that time, when I just
  • started to fall away from not living up to this image.
  • And now, I feel like I'm really away from living up to other
  • people's--
  • now, I can be more of myself at this moment.
  • I could never do this--
  • I could never admit-- this is the first time I had ever
  • admitted to anybody that I never wanted to go to those fights
  • and be in those gangs like that.
  • It was cool to say, I'm in the gang,
  • but when it came down to defending
  • the neighbors like that, I'd crumble,
  • I'd fall apart like that.
  • Like I said, that guy Lonnie who was walking
  • next to me, same thing, man.
  • He was scared shitless as I was, but he was there
  • for the same reason.
  • What can we do?
  • You got to go.
  • And you really don't have to.
  • That's the amazing thing, you know?
  • I think a lot of fear of it was--
  • I can just see, Mrs. (unintelligible)?
  • This is your son, Michael.
  • We just brought him home.
  • He was in a fight somewhere.
  • Oh, my boy.
  • What's he been doing?
  • That's a lot of pressure, from mom and home.
  • That's why I think I started off on those things like that.
  • I don't know, I feel at this point,
  • that I'm blaming too many things on my home life,
  • my early home life.
  • But I don't know if it's true or--
  • INTERVIEWER 1: Yeah, but when you're young,
  • that's most of the influence you have
  • is from your parents and your family.
  • It has to shape you a real lot.
  • MIKE: Yeah.
  • INTERVIEWER 1: No matter who you are.
  • MIKE: But I don't know.
  • I'm trying not to believe that.
  • I'm trying to think that I did a lot of reading it
  • and read it wrong.
  • I think that's what a lot of what happened there.
  • INTERVIEWER 2: What happened when you started work?
  • Like when you got into work, how did work change you?
  • Just the idea of being in work, you
  • couldn't keep up the image, or--
  • MIKE: No.
  • See, what was happening was that I was getting older.
  • I was becoming really frustrated with the image.
  • I was becoming really frus--
  • like when I would go out, I couldn't have a good time,
  • because I had the things, saying I was just doing nothing,
  • you know?
  • I had no money, hardly.
  • I had money, but I didn't have enough money
  • to do a lot of things, or things I
  • could have done if I had been working or something like that.
  • So it really got frustrating.
  • And when I got a job, it started to ease off the frustration
  • like that, because I was--
  • like, I was there, and I was doing something.
  • And it just started to ease off.
  • It seemed like it was a tap into the frustration, the pressure.
  • And it just started to ease them.
  • Then I went back to school that fall, night school.
  • I was working back then.
  • It was just, like, last fall.
  • And that was even more.
  • And I got, like, now--
  • when I was in school before, it was, like, to take up space,
  • and that was it, you know?
  • I was there, and I just did enough work to get the C,
  • and that's it.
  • And, like, now I can--
  • I just sit around and I get the good marks.
  • I pull real good grades just by--
  • I don't even have to study, you know?
  • It's just-- it's not like being forced.
  • It's because I want it now.
  • And before, like, I went to college first
  • because I didn't know what to do, right?
  • Our senior year in high school, everybody--
  • September, everybody is writing applications out, sending them
  • out all over the place, you know?
  • You know, it was April.
  • I think it's about time I do something, you know?
  • So I did, you know?
  • So I went, I got accepted out there at Erie.
  • So I went there for two years.
  • And all I did there was get drunk and pass--
  • yeah, I was like--
  • INTERVIEWER 1: Were you still into the image there?
  • MIKE: Yeah, that's where it got intense.
  • That's where it really got out of hand.
  • That's where the outer dress really, really blossomed,
  • you know?
  • Always in black, always in the cowboy boots with the chain,
  • the big skull.
  • That's where it really got--
  • it really got intense there.
  • And at that time, after my first year of college,
  • that's when I started--
  • when the outer signs of my body started
  • to show the effects from drinking too much, and eating,
  • and just continual partying like that.
  • That's when I started getting-- put on weight,
  • got a huge beer gut.
  • INTERVIEWER 1: It's hard to picture you like that.
  • With the black and the skull and the--
  • MIKE: I could show you a picture, if you want to see it.
  • They're funny to look at.
  • INTERVIEWER 2: I remember.
  • MIKE: Fuck it.
  • Paul, do you remember this girl?
  • I don't know if you do.
  • INTERVIEWER 2: Yeah, I remember at (unintelligible)
  • Plaza and everything.
  • MIKE: Yeah, and I was like--
  • INTERVIEWER 1: How long have you guys known each other?
  • MIKE: I'd say we were in fifth grade?
  • INTERVIEWER 2: Oh, yeah, fifth grade.
  • MIKE: Fifth grade.
  • Long time.
  • Lost track of each other for quite a few years and--
  • INTERVIEWER 2: We'd come back every once in a while.
  • MIKE: Came back once in a while for a reunion.
  • That's where it got intense.
  • It was totally every day, and, like, I never wore--
  • like I was telling Paul before, I never wore shoes.
  • It was always boots.
  • I didn't have--
  • I never had-- at that time, bells were starting to come in.
  • That was like, uh, I can't do that.
  • And it was always black denim jeans, right over the boots,
  • no bell on them, just cover the boots right off like that.
  • That's what it was, you know?
  • And it really-- that's where it really--
  • I don't know why, you know?
  • That's supposed to be a stimulating environment there
  • or something like that.
  • INTERVIEWER 2: Oh, you didn't have--
  • there wasn't any gangs there.
  • You were just mostly by yourself there, right?
  • Putting on the image?
  • MIKE: Yeah.
  • INTERVIEWER 1: (unintelligible) other people?
  • MIKE: Maybe I had to intensify it.
  • I don't know.
  • Intensify the image more.
  • I can't figure that out.
  • Why would I do that?
  • I don't know.
  • But it just got intense then, you know?
  • And then, like I said, at that time,
  • I was really capable of putting away great quantities
  • of alcohol at that time.
  • Yeah, and what happened is that on occasion it's
  • like I'd have blackouts, minor blackouts like that, from when
  • you drink a lot, you get a blackout, where you still move,
  • but you don't know what's happening.
  • And then people tell you these things.
  • I was starting to get these things, you know?
  • I got a few times.
  • And one time, I went after Jimmy (unintelligible)
  • one night with a hot dog fork.
  • And I threatened his life.
  • And I was continually--
  • I was really abusing my body to no end.
  • I guess it was just more frustration there,
  • more trying to live up to the image.
  • I was really going nuts inside.
  • I was really neurotic at that time, you know?
  • I couldn't carry on a relationship with a girl
  • more than, like, one night, you know?
  • That was it for me.
  • Like, hi, how are you?
  • And then we'd-- you know.
  • I couldn't even--
  • I didn't even want to have sex with anybody.
  • I just wanted to get drunk all the time.
  • And I couldn't function socially without drinking.
  • Like I was telling Paul, I would get to the point,
  • like, I would go out, in order to break down inhibition
  • I would get drunk, and then when I was drunk enough
  • that I could-- that the inhibitions were gone,
  • I was too drunk to do what I'd broken down
  • the inhibitions to do.
  • And then it really got vicious.
  • And I couldn't function, I couldn't remember.
  • Everybody would be sitting around,
  • having one or two beers, and I'd be over--
  • and I'd really get drunk.
  • I was getting drunk, like, five days a week.
  • And not just high drunk, but drunk,
  • you know, where I was sick.
  • I remember, like, every night I used
  • to come home and go behind the garage and puke.
  • And that's like day in and day out.
  • And then I started--
  • when I'd get drunk, I wouldn't get tired like that.
  • It would speed me up.
  • And I'd be walking around and I'd
  • fall off things and fall down.
  • And I always had big, huge bruises on my arms and my legs
  • from falling all the time like that.
  • And I was continuously drunk.
  • And it really got to--
  • it was really sickening.
  • And the thing was that after a while like that,
  • I wasn't having a good time, even in my own head,
  • doing that.
  • Even when I got drunk, the inhibitions
  • were still there, right?
  • I still had the pressure, social pressure
  • of not doing anything, but just laying
  • around being a drunk like that.
  • And it really got super frustrating.
  • INTERVIEWER 2: What were the inhibitions
  • that you wanted to break down?
  • You know, you said that you got so drunk
  • that you couldn't do the things that you wanted to break down.
  • What were those things that couldn't--
  • MIKE: First, let's see, one major thing
  • is like, well, I can remember my mother always putting ladies up
  • on a pedestal for me.
  • Like women are something ultra special like that.
  • They're not people.
  • They're above you, above men, "fe-males."
  • And there was always Grandpa around who was--
  • supposedly never took care of the family very good.
  • So she's got this man image from him.
  • My father wasn't with us, you know?
  • And so, like I said, it was super feminine like that.
  • So I was getting pressured.
  • I can remember.
  • I don't know.
  • I can remember arguing with her, saying,
  • "I didn't mean it that way."
  • She says, "What?"
  • Then she'd, like, embarrass me in front
  • of relatives and friends who'd come to the house like that,
  • her friends, my family when I'd see my relatives like that.
  • Because I remember her saying, "He hates women!
  • He hates women!
  • Look what he said!
  • Look what he said!"
  • I said, "I didn't mean it like that."
  • She says, "Oh, yeah, yeah."
  • And you know, I was, like, driven away.
  • And the whole thing like that, the whole thing
  • of women being so idealistic is so, like, unapproachable,
  • right?
  • And that's one thing that always, on a social level,
  • say, out at a Binky Brown's or something like that,
  • is really hard for me now, just to imagine
  • that those people are just people and not
  • off by themselves.
  • And it's really hard for me to break down things like that.
  • Where I am is, like, I have to know ahead of time, you know?
  • I have to talk a few times.
  • I can't just go up and say hi in a place like that, because it's
  • still too bizarre for me.
  • And see, when I'm sober, it was even harder then.
  • I couldn't even do it at all, you know?
  • I couldn't go in a strange place and say, "I like that chick.
  • I think I'll go over there and start a conversation with her."
  • INTERVIEWER 2: Yeah, but then that's a pressure of the idea
  • that hardly anybody goes through the same things about going
  • into a bar.
  • And the bars really aren't set up for people
  • to meet each other, in a way.
  • I mean, it's, like, pretty loud music,
  • and it's pretty hard to go over and say hello and really
  • get to know a person.
  • MIKE: No, yeah, I know.
  • INTERVIEWER 2: It's sort of a joke, the idea of setting up
  • a bar on that aspect, you know?
  • MIKE: Yeah, but see, like, the first thing I do is, like,
  • I wouldn't even look at anybody in there.
  • First place I'd head to when I went
  • any place was just to the bar.
  • I'd just sit there and I'd pour four or five, six drinks down
  • there.
  • And then I could get up and take a walk around,
  • even to look what was there.
  • It's really been difficult, because then I
  • also had that extra thing of trying
  • to live that image of being wild and hard
  • guy and tough and crazy, see, acting bizarrely
  • in order to attract, I don't know, attention, maybe?
  • I think that was part of it, too, attract a lot of attention
  • like that, you know?
  • And how could I be serious then, right?
  • And say, "Hi, how are you?
  • It smells like she got on her fucking rag or something!
  • Ah!
  • Look at that one, a warthog!"
  • You know?
  • And that's what it was, you know?
  • And then I'd just keep getting more and more frustration,
  • drunker and drunker.
  • And if I wanted to, I was too drunk.
  • I was slobbering around, throwing up.
  • I don't think I can really express to anybody the amounts
  • that I used to drink, the great quantities,
  • and how sick I used to get, like, every night.
  • It was like my days would go like, I would get up,
  • and I wasn't in school.
  • It was summer between my first year of college and second.
  • I didn't want to work.
  • I could have worked if I wanted to.
  • Didn't want to.
  • I figure this is my last summer--
  • (pause in recording)
  • That was my last summer of freedom
  • so I didn't want to work.
  • It turned out it wasn't.
  • It just got more frustrating after that.
  • But I was under these--
  • that image of being the most masculine man around,
  • being the craziest guy around, doing all the most bizarre,
  • sickening things he could to make
  • everybody say, (unintelligible) be really gross and things
  • like that.
  • And I was under the pressure of putting women on a pedestal
  • so far above me, you know, the unapproachable woman,
  • to say all women are unapproachable.
  • But it was like the unapproachable woman like that.
  • And it just kept getting more and more frustrating for me.
  • And I didn't--
  • INTERVIEWER 2: Did you feel she was unapproachable because--
  • MIKE: Because she was a woman.
  • I had that thing in my head that every lady is a saint.
  • And how could anybody as vile as me even
  • think of wanting to fuck this woman
  • or thinking anything like that?
  • I can remember my mother finding dirty books of mine
  • that were around the house.
  • Saying, "You look at this trash!
  • Trash, trash, trash."
  • All the time, you know?
  • It was never, like, so what, or anything like that.
  • It was always, that's filthy.
  • That's no good.
  • And it was (unintelligible).
  • I don't know.
  • She really implanted in me that really well.
  • So I had a lot of trouble like that, trying
  • to have relations with women.
  • It was really terrible.
  • I really think that's one thing I--
  • like I said, I don't want to put the blame there totally
  • like that.
  • But I don't know if I should or not.
  • But I was-- that is a lot of pressure.
  • It was on me.
  • INTERVIEWER 2: Yeah, I was wondering because before you
  • said that you knew the image wasn't the He-Man,
  • or all the really big man that you were putting on,
  • the violent man.
  • I was wondering, since you knew the act was on,
  • that it was really hard to approach these women,
  • because you really didn't feel that you were
  • a man that could approach them.
  • MIKE: Yeah.
  • See, you can see how intricately involved it was,
  • the whole-- all the things accumulating
  • into one mass of frustration, that they seemed to all fall
  • into-- they all worked against me like that.
  • And so I tried to break these inhibitions like that,
  • and I didn't know how.
  • And I was just like--
  • I don't know.
  • I feel like the only outlet I had was
  • to put it down on paper.
  • It was to write.
  • That's where I think that came from like that,
  • from inhibitions that--
  • from inhibitions like that.
  • It was my outlet.
  • Yeah.
  • And so I would get--
  • I would go out and I'd have all these--
  • get all these images of the unapproachable woman
  • and these violent man.
  • And it just--
  • I can't say while--
  • I'm losing what I'm trying to say.
  • I'm with it, and then I lose it.
  • This is like one, big frustrating experience
  • to have to go through all that shit, having that wall,
  • whatever, like--
  • of that women are so unapproachable
  • and so up on a pedestal and so much different.
  • They're not people, you know?
  • They're not men.
  • They're not "hu-man."
  • Human beings are like something really different like
  • that, you know?
  • INTERVIEWER 2: The woman that you
  • said that you went after that would, like,
  • dress like you with the cut-off work shirts or, you know,
  • jazz stuff.
  • They wore a look differently. (unintelligible).
  • They were like the-- you associated more of them with
  • the women in the magazines, or--
  • MIKE: Yeah, yeah.
  • Well, let's say, the women, say, in our group,
  • say, in my peer group, high school peer group,
  • they were out there, too, on the streets being women,
  • like, say, out of the home, whatever like that.
  • INTERVIEWER 1: So because they were more like men,
  • they were more human.
  • MIKE: Yeah, they were more--
  • I could relate to them as people like that, you know?
  • But then again, those were friends,
  • and we weren't-- we weren't approaching them in bizarre
  • instances.
  • INTERVIEWER 2: What do you mean, bizarre instances--
  • MIKE: Not bizarre instances.
  • You weren't approaching them in situations like at the bar,
  • because you were all friends.
  • Just like going in there and saying, like,
  • "Hi, Betty," you know?
  • "Hi, Jim," whatever.
  • Just, like, they were people.
  • INTERVIEWER 2: Sex was never involved.
  • MIKE: No, I wasn't involved with those people like that.
  • When it would come to the sexual aspect like that--
  • you know?
  • That's really a hard thing to break when you--
  • like I said, I really think that was plugged into me.
  • INTERVIEWER 2: Was it ever mentioned between you
  • and, say, these women who were in your group,
  • about having sex with them?
  • MIKE: No, not that I recall.
  • Everybody was, like, openly--
  • everybody was always like, fuck this, fuck that.
  • All the women were the same as the men.
  • As far as I knew it was like that.
  • But it seemed to me, like, they just
  • have never had sex with us, like the friends on the street.
  • We just never, like, associated them.
  • INTERVIEWER 2: They had sex outside,
  • and you had sex outside.
  • MIKE: Yeah, it was kind of like that, like they--
  • I would have my girlfriend.
  • And then we would go back--
  • I would leave.
  • And my girlfriend lived in the projects, (unintelligible).
  • But I was--
  • INTERVIEWER 2: How did you get to know your girl--
  • it was like go to bars to find--
  • MIKE: No, it was before bars even when I met her.
  • It was like, we picked--
  • I picked her up, just walking along through the Plaza,
  • you know?
  • I just grabbed her hand, and everybody else
  • was grabbing women around that were in her group.
  • And so we all grabbed women, too.
  • Like, Denny grabbed one woman, so I was, well,
  • this woman is nearest me so I'll grab her hand.
  • And that's how I met her.
  • And then I said, "Why don't I meet you at the show tomorrow?"
  • And she said "Yeah."
  • I said, "All right."
  • And it just went on like that.
  • But then, well, what happened is I would go over there on Friday
  • and I would stay, like, two hours at her house,
  • or we'd go--
  • I didn't drive at that time.
  • I would call her--
  • I would go visit her house, I think, like,
  • (unintelligible) what you call it exactly, her house.
  • And we'd sit around and talk and watch TV and shit.
  • Then I would leave, like, at nine o'clock
  • and be back just in time for all the good things
  • that all the men were doing with all the other men.
  • And then we'd talk about how frustrating
  • our experiences are with women.
  • We'd sing-- are you familiar with Bob Dylan's "Ballad
  • in Plain D"--
  • I Don't Believe You", Bob Dylan's song,
  • "I Don't Believe You"?
  • Evidently, she won't, evidently she won't, she just
  • acts like we never have met.
  • Just continuously singing that to each other.
  • We'd just sit around and go, how disastrous this love
  • affair is going, when, you know, you just left.
  • Because you wanted to come there and moan and groan over things
  • like that.
  • And then Saturday night was always wide in the fields
  • with all the men.
  • And then Sunday was, like, call up, "Want to go to the show?
  • Meet me there.
  • Have your father drop you off at the daily show."
  • And we'd sit together and neck for, like, the two movies.
  • Never seen anything there.
  • Then she would go home and I would go home.
  • And then we'd just call each other
  • during the week like that.
  • And then on Friday afternoon, everybody
  • would just come to my--
  • Denny and Rodney would come over to my house,
  • get the glue bag out, beer, get high, sleep,
  • and then go-- you know?
  • It was just-- it was, like, broken like that.
  • And what I think now, the kind of woman I would like now
  • would be someone who would do this all with me,
  • and come to the men and (unintelligible) the men
  • and all consistent like that.
  • Like, instead of that-- it was like--
  • INTERVIEWER 2: Do you feel that you're still into that whole--
  • I mean, what are you relationships with the men
  • that you party with now?
  • Are they somewhat the same?
  • Like, different-- instead of getting drunk in the fields,
  • everyone gets drunk at Vincent's?
  • Or party at Vincent's?
  • MIKE: Yeah, in a way, yeah.
  • Yeah, I'll just say yeah to that.
  • It's not the same, but it is the same.
  • (unintelligible).
  • INTERVIEWER 1: But you wouldn't leave, like,
  • a woman you were with to party at Vincent's.
  • MIKE: No, no, wouldn't do that no more.
  • No.
  • I would like someone to bring along to party with like that.
  • INTERVIEWER 2: You'd like to have everyone have someone
  • there so everyone can party and then just,
  • like-- because obviously, the rest of the guys
  • would want that too, right?
  • Do you think?
  • MIKE: I think so, yeah.
  • But unfortunately, I don't know, it seems like a lot of people
  • don't do that though.
  • That's one thing that frustrates me
  • with these guys who go-- my friends who got married,
  • you know?
  • You don't see them anymore.
  • And I don't see why that happens.
  • They get married and they fade away,
  • and you never see them again.
  • They drive by and beat the horn at each other.
  • Yeah, I used to hang around with them all the time.
  • (unintelligible).
  • INTERVIEWER 2: It's sort of like they don't have the connection
  • that you want.
  • I mean, there doesn't seem like there
  • is a connection of the guys-- all the guys
  • staying with the guys, and them bringing their lovers with them
  • to meet the guys and party with the guys.
  • It's like once they found the lovers,
  • (unintelligible) the guys.
  • MIKE: Yeah, unfortunately that's--
  • I know at least I feel like that would make me even more happier
  • in the partying like that.
  • When someone's with me, (unintelligible) some woman
  • I'm out with, I come in and everybody is jumping around,
  • having a good time.
  • Like, I want to have a good time there, too.
  • But I also want my woman to have a good time with everybody
  • there, too, you know?
  • INTERVIEWER 2: What if you brought
  • someone who wouldn't want to have-- like,
  • that isn't her good time?
  • MIKE: (Mike laughs) Well, I don't know.
  • Well, I should say--
  • I don't know.
  • But I haven't come in contact with that many people
  • who don't want to have a good time like I do.
  • I wouldn't associate with those people.
  • Well, I can have a good time in different ways, too.
  • But I have a good time doing that, occasionally.
  • I will say I won't do it everyday because it
  • would get boring, I think.
  • But I think that's really nice like that.
  • I mean, to have different sexes together like that.
  • INTERVIEWER 2: No, I wasn't trying to say, well,
  • you'd like to break it off.
  • Because you were saying you'd like to be with your friends.
  • And I was telling you, possibly, that she
  • would like to be with her friends,
  • also that she's been partying and yucking up all this time
  • when you were high, you know?
  • So possibly, like, she'd want to bring you there instead
  • of you going where you are.
  • MIKE: Yeah, well, that's immaterial.
  • We're not going to think about that, right?
  • No, but I would just say what happened before with me, I
  • never thought of that she'd be out Saturday night partying
  • too, just waiting for me there, like a puppy dog, a pet,
  • is there when I want her, or-- you know.
  • And other times it didn't matter.
  • It was just, like, a word, my girlfriend is there.
  • What's she doing?
  • Uh, I don't know.
  • I seen her with this guy.
  • Nah, not her.
  • And it was OK for me to do that, you see?
  • INTERVIEWER 2: Well, I mean, do you feel that way now?
  • MIKE: What?
  • INTERVIEWER 2: I mean, is this attitude how you feel now,
  • or this was the attitude that you had?
  • MIKE: That was an attitude I had then.
  • You know, like the girlfriend was there when I wanted her,
  • when I needed her, when I wanted to be with her, when
  • I wanted to go out to a social function, something like that.
  • INTERVIEWER 2: Junior prom or something.
  • MIKE: I didn't go to junior prom though.
  • I went to (unintelligible) and got drunk with my girlfriend,
  • took her along, you know?
  • That's how nice I was, with the Howie's bar,
  • Howie's (unintelligible).
  • (unintelligible background speaking)
  • MIKE: This is the guy--
  • I never wanted to go.
  • I didn't want to go to junior prom.
  • But my senior prom--
  • MIKE: I remember, we had our own senior prom.
  • My group did.
  • We had our own in my basement, with hard cider
  • and the cats-- the image of Satan and the cat.
  • And that was my junior prom there.
  • And I didn't go because I felt like I didn't fit in
  • with those people.
  • INTERVIEWER 2: We didn't. (unintelligible)
  • MIKE: Yeah, I really felt awkward with--
  • I couldn't-- I didn't know how to play Pinochle.
  • You guys were into Pinochle, (unintelligible) I remember,
  • every time you'd turn around.
  • INTERVIEWER 2: We didn't have the money to get drunk.
  • We'd play cards.
  • (laughter)
  • MIKE: But we didn't money either, but we always managed.
  • When me and Denny used to walk, like, all the way
  • from our house, way down to (unintelligible)
  • and Bailey to see the bookie, so he could run and get us
  • wine, so we'd go, and chug your wine down and get drunk.
  • It was continuous, like, always getting high.
  • It was really fun.
  • And we laugh now when we think about that stuff,
  • because we were consistently-- the only thing-- it
  • wasn't going out to do anything else but get high.
  • I have to get into something else.
  • I think I keep repeating myself.
  • I don't know.
  • INTERVIEWER 2: Why don't you tell
  • what you'd like to have now.
  • I mean, like, those were the values you
  • had about relationships before.
  • How do you feel about relationships now,
  • or what kind of relationship would you like to have now?
  • You know, like you said--
  • just you were explaining before how the girlfriends would just
  • be there anytime.
  • And yeah, you just wanted to (unintelligible)
  • how have you overcome, say, the inhibitions that you
  • said you had before?
  • How do you feel about relationships now, or just
  • going out and meeting people?
  • Do you still really get super drunk at bars or--
  • MIKE: No, it happens, but I don't go out, like, purpose--
  • I don't need to go out and have ten drinks
  • before I can talk to anybody.
  • I can go out now and, like, have one or two
  • beers for the whole night and have a good time, as much as I
  • could getting slobbered.
  • You know, at least (unintelligible) like that.
  • And I feel now that I'm beginning
  • to realize that I've had these inhibitions like that,
  • that they're going away.
  • When I first realized through this group,
  • in the group, when I brought up that thing
  • about the alter name, the other name that I had for myself--
  • INTERVIEWER 1: What was that?
  • MIKE: Anubis.
  • Remember (unintelligible)--
  • INTERVIEWER 2: Why don't you explain that.
  • MIKE: Oh, well, see, the other person, the image,
  • had his own name.
  • It was Michael Anubis.
  • INTERVIEWER 1: I knew you had another image, but I didn't--
  • MIKE: Yeah, the most masculine man,
  • he wasn't Mike (unintelligible).
  • He was Mike Anubis.
  • INTERVIEWER 1: Where did you get the name?
  • MIKE: I was going through a book,
  • and Anubis is the Egyptian God of Death.
  • He pulls the scales of life and death like that.
  • And that sounded good to me.
  • We were all giving ourselves names at that time, you know?
  • Denny was Dyeus and so I was Anubis.
  • And that was the image's name.
  • And through this-- when I brought that up
  • at this group like that.
  • And I don't exactly remember how we
  • talked about it, whatever like that,
  • but relating to that name.
  • And I went home and started thinking about that.
  • So I just felt this other person, like, leaving me,
  • you know?
  • And I was rid of that.
  • And all of a sudden, I was able to-- like
  • before, I wasn't able to write my name, Mike (unintelligible),
  • and relate to that.
  • No, that's not me.
  • I was Mike Anubis.
  • And so now, I put my name all over the place.
  • And I'm really happy with that, you know?
  • I'm really conscious of that name.
  • That name is my name.
  • It's not anything else.
  • And it makes me really happy when I think about that.
  • That I can just--
  • I was just laying in bed, and I just felt like the energy,
  • like, just leaving me, and this other person just, like,
  • flowing right out of me and just getting--
  • and then just seeing me standing there, but--
  • the image of me standing there and--
  • UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Come on up.
  • You know where it is?
  • MIKE: I was just so relieved after I knew that, you know,
  • that was gone.
  • So I didn't have to be that anymore.
  • It was such a relief.
  • And I don't know if I should-- so what?
  • It's only tape.
  • You can cut it out if you want.
  • I thought of a real good story after that, along with that.
  • Someone was-- this would be for the story, writing the story.
  • There would be a person where that energy would flow out
  • of him.
  • But the energy would become real and do away
  • with the actual person, and the image lives.
  • I put it all together, just-- you know, it's just,
  • like, in notes, just a note that I've gotten written down
  • someplace that I carry in my head.
  • If it ever comes out, it comes out.
  • If it doesn't-- you can just imagine the energy just flowing
  • out of the person like that.
  • You can envision it on film or something like that.
  • And flowing out like that, and then--
  • INTERVIEWER 2: So you felt you were Anubis.
  • Or you wanted to feel that your image wasn't dead?
  • MIKE: Yeah, well-- wait, I don't understand what you mean.
  • INTERVIEWER 2: Is this just a story you were thinking about,
  • or was this the image that you felt Anubis--
  • when you were thinking about a story of him,
  • would be like his energy just flowing out?
  • MIKE: No, it would be me with Anubis' name.
  • And Anubis would be leaving, and I would
  • be left, Mike (unintelligible).
  • And then Anubis would--
  • this is only in the story.
  • This is nothing factual about what I feel.
  • The image, energy of Anubis would turn on (unintelligible)
  • and do away with (unintelligible).
  • And the image would continue.
  • And the real person would be there.
  • INTERVIEWER 1: This is just something
  • that occurred to you recently?
  • MIKE: Yeah, well, that occurred to me a few days
  • after I felt that energy--
  • the Anubis leaving me.
  • And as soon as I was conscious that that's what really was--
  • I was really playing up to Anubis.
  • It was really alien for me to have my own name.
  • So I'm glad that's gone.
  • I'm really relieved.
  • And I'm feeling like I can see now all the ways that I--
  • that's why I kept saying before, I
  • don't want to put the blame too much on the pressures from home
  • like that.
  • Because I think I'm realizing now
  • that the pressure was there, but it was me
  • who turned and formed the box.
  • All the bricks were laying there.
  • It was me who actually put up the walls, though.
  • And so I didn't have to do that.
  • So now they're just coming down.
  • The bricks are still going to be there.
  • I don't think-- maybe you can, you can get a--
  • I shouldn't say.
  • I said, you can get away from it,
  • like, totally if you want to.
  • It takes time.
  • That's what I'm trying to do now is,
  • like-- as soon as I realize something that I don't like,
  • as soon as you become conscious of it like that,
  • it seems to disappear and fall away like that.
  • That's really pleasurable for me.
  • INTERVIEWER 2: Has it become less frustrating for you
  • since you lost that image?
  • MIKE: Yeah.
  • It is.
  • It's a lot less frustrating.
  • I mean, that's one thing that frustration,
  • as I look back now, played a big part in everything I did.
  • It was really frustrating.
  • And now I don't--
  • I don't have that frustration now,
  • because I'm not forced to do-- by myself,
  • I don't have to do all those other shit things.
  • If I like something, then just do it, you know?
  • That's as far as it goes.
  • I don't have to, like, portray anything. (pause) (Mike laughs)
  • And one thing I used to identify with--
  • this is another reason why my love affairs and things failed,
  • I think, is because--
  • are you familiar with Cyrano De Bergerac, the character?
  • INTERVIEWER 1: Mm-hmm.
  • MIKE: The character himself, the noble man,
  • very noble person, right?
  • Help his friends, do anything, you know, like that.
  • But let me see, what am I trying to do?
  • Well, I identified with Cyrano in that he had a tragic love
  • affair, right?
  • And at the end, he hands out the plume, the white plume.
  • He says, my white plume, that's all I haven't surrendered yet.
  • And that's heavy symbolism in there.
  • But this is where I felt like--
  • that seemed really romantic to me
  • to be-- to, like, love and lose.
  • It is romantic, and it's tragic. (Mike laughs)
  • But I was all for this really heavy romantic
  • (unintelligible).
  • I've loved and lost.
  • And oh, now I can dwindle away and I can get high,
  • and I can lay around and say, oh, wow, where did I go wrong?
  • And I used to identify with that a whole lot,
  • that particular character.
  • That's my favorite play.
  • It still is my favorite play but for--
  • I don't identify any longer.
  • I'm no longer swashbuckling, tragic lover,
  • losing because of a--
  • see, oh, and another thing is that Cyrano
  • had the outward deformity that kept him away like that.
  • See his nose, his long nose.
  • And that was his thing that was holding him back.
  • And I had all these other things, too,
  • that were holding me back from becoming the whole man.
  • And that's the way I pictured--
  • INTERVIEWER 2: What did you feel those things were?
  • MIKE: Like not being able to approach, say, women and have--
  • just have enjoyable conversations like that.
  • And (unintelligible) almost irreplace-- no,
  • irreplace that ain't the word.
  • Untouchable, because you're, like, so far away.
  • It wasn't like that with close friends,
  • though, or with the girlfriends that after I knew them
  • for a while.
  • It was like going out and meeting, say, picking up
  • some women in a bar.
  • That wasn't-- I can't do that.
  • And it's really rough, because my friends,
  • they were like doing it all the time.
  • That's frustrating right there.
  • So I would be drunk all the time, too.
  • So that's dually frustrating.
  • And it was just one vicious thing like that.
  • I feel I'm returning again to the same shit.
  • INTERVIEWER 2: OK, (unintelligible)
  • I'm going to give it to you.
  • You had a lot of stuff before when
  • you started talking about work, when you started work.
  • And you suddenly got into it.
  • And just explain work, like the conditions.
  • And you were talking about money, and how it went too far.
  • MIKE: I feel like that after awhile,
  • that work, for once you get off the labor force
  • and start, say, the managers and the presidents of the plants,
  • and the President of General Motors
  • and the vice presidents and the big advertising.
  • And you spend, like-- they don't put the forty-hour week in.
  • They put, like, the eighty-hour week in.
  • And they're consistently-- they live the work.
  • They live the job totally like that.
  • I feel that after a while, it's not
  • money that drives them anymore.
  • It's like they have an inner need to get--
  • to do that in themselves.
  • It's no longer-- money isn't what they're after anymore.
  • They're after something that's inside of them that
  • needs to be satisfied in work, and the growing and rising
  • in power like that does it.
  • INTERVIEWER 2: Do you find that in yourself?
  • You said--
  • MIKE: Yeah.
  • INTERVIEWER 2: --before--
  • MIKE: Yeah, I do find that in myself.
  • But--
  • INTERVIEWER 2: Why don't you explain how you first started
  • and when you started, and now you're a production
  • manager or something?
  • MIKE: Yeah, well, you see, it started--
  • the first time I noticed was when
  • I was in the (unintelligible).
  • I was on literary magazines.
  • First year, I was on the staff.
  • The second year, I was editor.
  • So this gave me a lot of prestige.
  • I put a lot of work into it.
  • And what happened then is all of a sudden
  • I found myself as float committee chairman, right?
  • And I had to go through all the papers like that and all that.
  • And then I was a student government representative
  • for my curriculum.
  • And that's all I was doing, was when
  • something had to be done, they'd come to me and I'd accept it,
  • because I just liked doing it then.
  • I didn't even think about the work and the time that
  • had to be put into it.
  • INTERVIEWER 1: You were still into wearing black
  • at that time?
  • MIKE: Yeah.
  • You see?
  • And wow, and I really enjoyed doing that.
  • I had a beard at that time and everything like that,
  • and I was always scrounging the skull and the vests
  • and the cowboy boots like that.
  • And I'd just run around.
  • And I was running myself ragged.
  • I cracked up one night almost, too, with my mother.
  • I broke into tears.
  • I don't know if it was a nervous breakdown or what it was.
  • INTERVIEWER 2: What happened?
  • MIKE: Huh?
  • INTERVIEWER 2: Why don't you explain what happened?
  • How'd you get to that point?
  • MIKE: I was doing all these things at one time.
  • I was editing the magazine.
  • We had our last issue coming out.
  • And I was doing a lot of layout work.
  • We were doing the-- building the float at that time.
  • I was the chairman of that.
  • And we were fooling around with the float.
  • And I had school yet, and I couldn't let my--
  • in myself, I couldn't let that drop
  • below a C. That's all I wanted was a C.
  • But I didn't want to flunk out.
  • And I was at school.
  • I was playing the image.
  • So I remember one night I was out.
  • We were drinking and it was on a Sunday and I came home.
  • And I don't remember exactly what she said.
  • She was sitting there and it was about midnight.
  • And I was half drunk.
  • And I remember she says something,
  • and I just say, "What the hell do you expect me to do?"
  • And I just broke into tears.
  • And I just cried for about three hours there.
  • She was like, "Oh, take it easy."
  • And the whole, you know, coddling me
  • in her arms and everything.
  • Then I just cried for three hours.
  • I just fell apart.
  • I guess it just got too much.
  • That's all I can--
  • everything just got to me at that one second like that.
  • It just fell apart.
  • Everything that held together, like,
  • all the reasons that made me do all these things, it
  • just, like--
  • INTERVIEWER 1: Vanished.
  • MIKE: Vanished.
  • And I just broke into tears.
  • And it's this really strange feeling, too, just, you
  • know, just because--
  • INTERVIEWER 2: Strange just to cry or just--
  • MIKE: Just (unintelligible)--
  • INTERVIEWER 2: (unintelligible) cry before that?
  • Or it was just really strange to have
  • to see yourself break down that much and cry?
  • MIKE: No, because I cry--
  • I get misty.
  • I don't cry outright like that, just to say--
  • to just cry like that.
  • But I get misty.
  • That's what I call it.
  • Your eyes water like that.
  • And when I'm heavy into a movie like that, I get misty.
  • I'm really like that, too.
  • I really (unintelligible).
  • But that was-- that's like a different kind of crying.
  • It's not like--
  • I just collapsed.
  • And I was really depressed for a few days after that.
  • Then I kind of put everything back together in its place,
  • and I started doing that again.
  • INTERVIEWER 2: Back to what you were doing before?
  • (unintelligible) do a lot of work again (unintelligible)?
  • MIKE: Um-hm, um-hm.
  • And that was when I was in school.
  • And now, when I talk to Denny like that,
  • it comes off to him that that's what I'm out
  • after is not how much work has got to be done,
  • but the prestige (unintelligible),
  • prestige from your peers.
  • I don't know.
  • Whatever it is though, that big need
  • to do all the things like that, he says.
  • And I have to agree with him to a certain point
  • that I go overboard on a lot of things.
  • But what I would like to see myself do now
  • is do that with my art, with my words.
  • That's what I'd like to do now.
  • (end of recording)