Audio Interview, Mike, 1974
- MIKE: At that time early in my life, or earlier than honestly
- ten years ago like that, I felt like I
- had tried to identify with these super violent men.
- With Hell's Angels, with, you know, Wyatt Earp--
- not Wyatt Earp--
- Jesse James and the outlaw image, the very masculine men.
- And up until a little short time ago, maybe a year,
- maybe in that, I was still really intense into that.
- Now, the way I feel about it was that I
- was looking for a man image, because I felt that I had none.
- So I grew up--
- I was always mommy.
- I grew up like with all women consistently around me
- like that, you know?
- And so this was like the most masculine thing there was out,
- was this real, virile, hard guy, fighter, drinker.
- INTERVIEWER 2: You got this image after your father left?
- MIKE: No, that was like, well, I grew up-- my early years
- until I was like four years old on,
- I lived, me, my mother, it was my grandmother
- and my grandfather.
- And my aunt and my cousin, both female, man, and my cousin's
- a girl too.
- I was consistently surrounded with women in the house
- at all times like that, you know?
- My grandfather was older like that
- and he was a rummy at that time.
- He drank a lot like that.
- So, what I figure is what happened
- myself is that when I started coming to realize these things
- I was looking for, like, a man image or a father image
- or something like that to copy.
- This is what I went for, was the most outspoken, violent thing
- that I could get a hold of at that time.
- And in the late sixties and middle sixties
- the Hell's Angels were in full swing,
- everybody was denim, leather, swastika.
- At least that's the way I saw it, you know?
- And that's what I went after.
- And I could never reach that fucking point.
- It's really so bizarre.
- I had all the trappings.
- I had this Iron Cross around my neck
- and I had the cut-off denim and I had the gang's name
- on the back, Rogues Incorporated, Lovejoy
- in Buffalo, New York.
- And it was a big suit.
- I used to love wearing that, man.
- Just the way people would look at me.
- Oh, look, there goes a man.
- (Mike laughs)
- And it was really true.
- That's the way it really was, you know?
- Because I could go in any place and like
- I knew what was going on inside me and I wasn't what
- was portrayed.
- And yet, I could go in a place like that
- and I could give off enough show that people wouldn't bother.
- It was a mutual agreement that other rough guys do not
- hassle this rough guy too.
- It was mutually like that.
- Just don't mess with that guy, he's a bad motherfucker.
- And I was never--
- these people started picking up this.
- Other people started seeing me as that mask.
- It was so bizarre like that.
- And then like a legend grew up, you know.
- I don't remember, I was in a fight in I think seventh grade,
- and I wasn't in another fight for maybe four years.
- But here I was, big, running around like that.
- A lot of strange people would say like outside,
- they didn't know me like that, they would really think that I
- was really a hard, nasty thing.
- You know, here's these guys, street corner guys.
- And I was never really that.
- I tried, after I got out of high school, I tried--
- it even got more intense for some reason.
- I really went nuts.
- I didn't wear shoes for a year.
- I wore consistent cowboy boots for like eighteen months.
- I didn't even own a pair of shoes.
- It was always boots, boots, boots.
- You know?
- It was always black denim pants, always black t-shirt,
- had a big truckers wallet hanging out
- with the chain on it, the belt, I used to wear
- the skull, the cat skull all the time.
- It was just a big joke.
- And what happened, I think, is I started to believe the image,
- and that's where I really got into trouble because I couldn't
- keep up with what I thought I was,
- or what I wanted to be, or identify with.
- And that was a big hassle.
- INTERVIEWER 2: What was it, again, that you definitely
- wanted to identify with?
- MIKE: I wanted to identify, I think,
- with a masculine image of what a man is.
- And I felt like--
- INTERVIEWER 2: Did you try like in all ways?
- MIKE: No, I don't think so.
- I don't know where I am there.
- INTERVIEWER 2: OK, well you're talking
- about being really masculine.
- So did that also go into, like-- what was your relationships
- in high school?
- I mean, besides like with the guys?
- Did the other image go into your relationships
- with women that you met?
- MIKE: Yeah, they did.
- And they always consistently found me out too.
- INTERVIEWER 2: Well, why don't you explain what happened?
- MIKE: Well, I say, you know, like how could
- the immortal, masculine, mucho macho man,
- how could he lower himself to love a woman?
- You know, because women were always
- sex objects in our group.
- They were nothing else, they had no minds, nothing.
- It was always like, broads.
- It was never women or girls or anything,
- it was always broads like that and it's really hard.
- If you're trying to portray something you're not,
- how are you going to portray it that way?
- I got really messed up all through those hangups
- like that.
- You know, I just couldn't come out.
- It was another--
- I was suppressed in all these ways.
- These social pressures and pressures from home
- like that, they really messed--
- I can't explain it yet myself.
- INTERVIEWER 2: Well, why don't you
- give a particular example of a relationship
- and how did the conflict (unintelligible)?
- I mean, you tried to love a particular woman
- and it would get involved-- it would get tangled up because?
- MIKE: It was because of having to play
- the role, of having to act like someone I wasn't like that.
- I would consistently fuck it up.
- And I think I chose also people who I would want
- to have relationships with.
- I would choose people who would like maybe would supposedly
- jive with that, and yet didn't.
- I want to see if I can put that better.
- (pause) I felt I chose people who I felt
- were, say, the ideal person for the ultra masculine man.
- You know?
- Like the chick with the cut-off jacket, right?
- And it turns out that these people are playing roles too.
- You've got two people playing roles
- and all you've got is shit.
- At least that's the way I felt, you know?
- It was really hard for me to carry on a serious--
- have a serious relationship, a long-term one.
- I still don't have long-term relationships
- because I always hit and run.
- It's really-- I can't get over that.
- I blew so many beautiful, beautiful women
- with beautiful heads like that by playing the game.
- I could kick myself sometimes when I think back and say,
- Jesus, you know, I could have had a really in-depth,
- intense relationship with this woman,
- but I fucked it up because I was playing someone I wasn't.
- And that's really different.
- I don't know.
- I don't know, it was just a lot of pressure too from like--
- I don't want to put too much pressure on my--
- from home like that, but I think that's got a lot to do with it.
- I really do.
- Like I was telling Paul before, it
- was a total matriarchal society there in my house.
- Grandma was boss, Mama listened to Grandma,
- and Grandpa had nothing to say, and there was Mikey.
- And Auntie came over with little girl cousin and here it is.
- I think I thought that I was being feminized like that,
- so I took hold of the most masculine thing I could find.
- INTERVIEWER 1: You had to.
- MIKE: Well, I had to, right?
- Or did I have to?
- I don't know, I don't think so.
- INTERVIEWER 1: Well, you had to have some identity.
- MIKE: Yeah.
- So this is what I tried to identify with.
- And yet, it fell through like that.
- INTERVIEWER 1: Well, it might have
- been the best thing you could have done at the time.
- MIKE: Yeah, but I shouldn't have had
- to go through all those years and years of shit.
- INTERVIEWER 2: Right.
- MIKE: Right, I blew so many things.
- So many good things.
- I could have really enjoyed myself
- doing by hanging out and putting on the big show.
- What else do you want me to get into?
- INTERVIEWER 2: How do you feel about yourself now?
- I mean, do you think that you play any games now?
- MIKE: Yeah, in a way, I'm still caught up in that--
- not as much as before, and I recognize it now
- and I kick it down--
- of trying to identify with other people and doing what
- other people would do in order to get their acceptance.
- I find myself still doing that on certain occasions like that.
- But I don't think it's-- it's not as intense as it was at one
- time.
- Like, I couldn't go any place just myself,
- I always went like the other person.
- Like I was saying before the tape,
- I had all these social pressures on me.
- And I--
- INTERVIEWER 2: Why don't you explain that about the gang?
- About the fights?
- How you got dumped?
- MIKE: Oh, yeah.
- I was talking before about when I was playing
- my role as hard guy like that.
- And the guys I'd hang around with,
- I don't know if they were playing the role too.
- I got a feeling that they probably were to some extent,
- too.
- But I don't know if they had such intensity about it or not.
- I can remember, for instance, Carl and Artie coming
- to my house, "Come on out.
- There's a fight down on Walden and Bailey tonight, alright?"
- I go, "Yeah?
- Geez, I don't know."
- And I'd have all these things going on in my head,
- I don't want to go fight, I might get beat up.
- (Mike laughs) I might lose, we might lose.
- That would be terrible if we lost, right?
- But yeah, then I said, if I don't go, who am I
- going to hang out with?
- Right, because there was nobody else.
- Like, all my friends were in the same thing,
- we were in the same boat.
- So I was under that pressure of having no friends
- or being called a cop out or chicken or pigeon or weasel.
- Weasel was our word then, I think.
- If you're a weasel, what good are you?
- Where could you go, right?
- There was no one else for me to hang out with,
- because all my friends were in the same boat like that.
- Or the guys I was hanging around with at that time.
- INTERVIEWER 1: So you always went.
- MIKE: So I went.
- Right?
- This is exact for instance I can remember like that, you know?
- And I can remember walking down Walden with Carl and Artie,
- going down there, giving ourselves the boost, the talk.
- I can remember the things running through my head,
- like which is the best way for me to escape?
- How could I get out of this?
- I've got to go to school.
- They ain't going to believe that, they
- got to go to school too.
- I got homework, they ain't going to eat that shit up.
- Look at all that garbage.
- Forget about the homework.
- I just couldn't get out of it, so I was there going with them.
- Then we used to meet at Deco on Walden and Bailey.
- And everybody's all over there with the jackets,
- and everybody's getting geared for the fight.
- We were fighting Genesee that night.
- Lost Souls and Genesee.
- So it's like fifty guys from Walden,
- they're all around there.
- So I was nervous.
- I was really nervous like that.
- And it was like if I had left--
- well, at that time, I wasn't hanging around with Walden,
- we were hanging around in Lovejoy and the gang
- in Lovejoy, and Artie was a real high member,
- he was like vice president, I think, at that time,
- of the gang in Lovejoy like that.
- So this was our little part of Lovejoy, helping Walden out
- in case we needed help some other time.
- Which is a lot of shit too, because no one ever
- helps you out. (Mike laughs)
- I can remember going out in Deco and meeting behind,
- it was in Victor's store.
- And we were all standing around.
- All the other guys are running around, getting ready,
- hiding pipes and chains and things like that.
- And I was like--
- everybody was grouping.
- I can remember standing away from the group like that.
- With the group, but not in the mass.
- And then we started walking through the back streets
- over to Genesee through Walden, through Rapin Street and Hazel
- Street over there.
- I can remember everybody making noises and everything
- like that.
- And I can remember walking towards the back of the group.
- And there was Artie.
- Carl was up in front.
- I didn't even know where the hell he was.
- And I can remember, there's this one guy walking next to me.
- And like I said, the first time I met him, his name was Lonnie.
- I remembered his name and everything.
- This is like I was still in high school.
- Like, I was seventeen or sixteen years old.
- I can remember walking with him over there,
- I says yeah, (unintelligible) are fighting.
- And he goes, "Yeah, me too.
- I live in this neighborhood, I got to--" he says to me,
- I can remember, he says, "Yeah, I got to come to the fight.
- I live in this neighborhood, there's
- no place else for me to go."
- I says, "Yeah these are all my friends too,
- I've got to help them out like that."
- And I can remember, we're just like walking up to--
- we were walking up (unintelligible) to Genesee
- and all of a sudden you hear all this noise and stuff.
- So everybody's moving up there.
- By the time we got up to the street there,
- everybody was coming back across the street.
- Everybody's running all over the place.
- We see this one guy, Nature Boy, running up to the tracks.
- He goes, "Nature Boy, where are you going?"
- He goes, "I'm getting my hammer.
- I'm going to pound a few heads in."
- And now, everybody just dispersed.
- And then they all came together in the same spot.
- A couple of guys got beat up on the other side of the street.
- There were like seven guys against fifty.
- Fortunately, we had the fifty guys that time, you know?
- So I remember going up to Artie and saying, "Well, Artie, I
- came to the fight."
- I shook his hand and said, "I've got to go now."
- And I just took off right out of there,
- because I was really paranoid about being busted.
- Being arrested for assault or something like that.
- INTERVIEWER 1: Did you take part in the fight?
- MIKE: No, it was like over, like the first two
- guys who were across the street got to beat everybody up
- with the chains, and everybody just came across like that.
- I remember saying to Artie, see Artie, we came to the fight.
- I shook his hand and I left, and those guys stayed there.
- Then, what I would do then, this is really
- terrifying for me inside.
- So then, the next thing I know, I'd be over there--
- yeah, I went to the gang fight down in Lost Souls.
- Yeah, I was there, man, I seen the whole thing, you know.
- Like I was one of the first guys across the street.
- You see that guy got smashed in the head with the chain?
- Ha, ha, ha.
- I know the guy who did that.
- And I'd be playing the role then, you know?
- Here, I didn't want to do it, and once I did it,
- I didn't even to do it, but I was just
- around the general vicinity, not wanting to do it.
- I'd be bragging about it.
- Yeah, yeah, I was at that fight.
- We wiped out the Lost Souls.
- Yeah, Walden and them.
- It was so fucking ridiculous.
- And it just went on like that.
- And then you get those legends built up
- about why is there the parties at my house?
- Me and Denny used to say, yeah, we had a fire in the summer.
- Everybody's all, big fire, wow.
- And then you start living up to that
- and it really becomes complicated.
- And then you become less and less fun, you know,
- your real self.
- You become more fucked up, and then
- it just like perpetuates itself, it keeps moving.
- And then I think I started to believe what everybody's
- telling me, and I felt that I started
- to almost forget about my real self and become the image.
- And that's, like, just a little bit
- before the group started is where I
- started to fall away from that.
- Well, I started about maybe six or seven months
- after I started work, which would be about eighteen
- months ago, is when I started just to break away from that.
- And they would be putting me somewhere.
- I was almost twenty-one years old at that time.
- I was twenty-one at that time, when I just
- started to fall away from not living up to this image.
- And now, I feel like I'm really away from living up to other
- people's--
- now, I can be more of myself at this moment.
- I could never do this--
- I could never admit-- this is the first time I had ever
- admitted to anybody that I never wanted to go to those fights
- and be in those gangs like that.
- It was cool to say, I'm in the gang,
- but when it came down to defending
- the neighbors like that, I'd crumble,
- I'd fall apart like that.
- Like I said, that guy Lonnie who was walking
- next to me, same thing, man.
- He was scared shitless as I was, but he was there
- for the same reason.
- What can we do?
- You got to go.
- And you really don't have to.
- That's the amazing thing, you know?
- I think a lot of fear of it was--
- I can just see, Mrs. (unintelligible)?
- This is your son, Michael.
- We just brought him home.
- He was in a fight somewhere.
- Oh, my boy.
- What's he been doing?
- That's a lot of pressure, from mom and home.
- That's why I think I started off on those things like that.
- I don't know, I feel at this point,
- that I'm blaming too many things on my home life,
- my early home life.
- But I don't know if it's true or--
- INTERVIEWER 1: Yeah, but when you're young,
- that's most of the influence you have
- is from your parents and your family.
- It has to shape you a real lot.
- MIKE: Yeah.
- INTERVIEWER 1: No matter who you are.
- MIKE: But I don't know.
- I'm trying not to believe that.
- I'm trying to think that I did a lot of reading it
- and read it wrong.
- I think that's what a lot of what happened there.
- INTERVIEWER 2: What happened when you started work?
- Like when you got into work, how did work change you?
- Just the idea of being in work, you
- couldn't keep up the image, or--
- MIKE: No.
- See, what was happening was that I was getting older.
- I was becoming really frustrated with the image.
- I was becoming really frus--
- like when I would go out, I couldn't have a good time,
- because I had the things, saying I was just doing nothing,
- you know?
- I had no money, hardly.
- I had money, but I didn't have enough money
- to do a lot of things, or things I
- could have done if I had been working or something like that.
- So it really got frustrating.
- And when I got a job, it started to ease off the frustration
- like that, because I was--
- like, I was there, and I was doing something.
- And it just started to ease off.
- It seemed like it was a tap into the frustration, the pressure.
- And it just started to ease them.
- Then I went back to school that fall, night school.
- I was working back then.
- It was just, like, last fall.
- And that was even more.
- And I got, like, now--
- when I was in school before, it was, like, to take up space,
- and that was it, you know?
- I was there, and I just did enough work to get the C,
- and that's it.
- And, like, now I can--
- I just sit around and I get the good marks.
- I pull real good grades just by--
- I don't even have to study, you know?
- It's just-- it's not like being forced.
- It's because I want it now.
- And before, like, I went to college first
- because I didn't know what to do, right?
- Our senior year in high school, everybody--
- September, everybody is writing applications out, sending them
- out all over the place, you know?
- You know, it was April.
- I think it's about time I do something, you know?
- So I did, you know?
- So I went, I got accepted out there at Erie.
- So I went there for two years.
- And all I did there was get drunk and pass--
- yeah, I was like--
- INTERVIEWER 1: Were you still into the image there?
- MIKE: Yeah, that's where it got intense.
- That's where it really got out of hand.
- That's where the outer dress really, really blossomed,
- you know?
- Always in black, always in the cowboy boots with the chain,
- the big skull.
- That's where it really got--
- it really got intense there.
- And at that time, after my first year of college,
- that's when I started--
- when the outer signs of my body started
- to show the effects from drinking too much, and eating,
- and just continual partying like that.
- That's when I started getting-- put on weight,
- got a huge beer gut.
- INTERVIEWER 1: It's hard to picture you like that.
- With the black and the skull and the--
- MIKE: I could show you a picture, if you want to see it.
- They're funny to look at.
- INTERVIEWER 2: I remember.
- MIKE: Fuck it.
- Paul, do you remember this girl?
- I don't know if you do.
- INTERVIEWER 2: Yeah, I remember at (unintelligible)
- Plaza and everything.
- MIKE: Yeah, and I was like--
- INTERVIEWER 1: How long have you guys known each other?
- MIKE: I'd say we were in fifth grade?
- INTERVIEWER 2: Oh, yeah, fifth grade.
- MIKE: Fifth grade.
- Long time.
- Lost track of each other for quite a few years and--
- INTERVIEWER 2: We'd come back every once in a while.
- MIKE: Came back once in a while for a reunion.
- That's where it got intense.
- It was totally every day, and, like, I never wore--
- like I was telling Paul before, I never wore shoes.
- It was always boots.
- I didn't have--
- I never had-- at that time, bells were starting to come in.
- That was like, uh, I can't do that.
- And it was always black denim jeans, right over the boots,
- no bell on them, just cover the boots right off like that.
- That's what it was, you know?
- And it really-- that's where it really--
- I don't know why, you know?
- That's supposed to be a stimulating environment there
- or something like that.
- INTERVIEWER 2: Oh, you didn't have--
- there wasn't any gangs there.
- You were just mostly by yourself there, right?
- Putting on the image?
- MIKE: Yeah.
- INTERVIEWER 1: (unintelligible) other people?
- MIKE: Maybe I had to intensify it.
- I don't know.
- Intensify the image more.
- I can't figure that out.
- Why would I do that?
- I don't know.
- But it just got intense then, you know?
- And then, like I said, at that time,
- I was really capable of putting away great quantities
- of alcohol at that time.
- Yeah, and what happened is that on occasion it's
- like I'd have blackouts, minor blackouts like that, from when
- you drink a lot, you get a blackout, where you still move,
- but you don't know what's happening.
- And then people tell you these things.
- I was starting to get these things, you know?
- I got a few times.
- And one time, I went after Jimmy (unintelligible)
- one night with a hot dog fork.
- And I threatened his life.
- And I was continually--
- I was really abusing my body to no end.
- I guess it was just more frustration there,
- more trying to live up to the image.
- I was really going nuts inside.
- I was really neurotic at that time, you know?
- I couldn't carry on a relationship with a girl
- more than, like, one night, you know?
- That was it for me.
- Like, hi, how are you?
- And then we'd-- you know.
- I couldn't even--
- I didn't even want to have sex with anybody.
- I just wanted to get drunk all the time.
- And I couldn't function socially without drinking.
- Like I was telling Paul, I would get to the point,
- like, I would go out, in order to break down inhibition
- I would get drunk, and then when I was drunk enough
- that I could-- that the inhibitions were gone,
- I was too drunk to do what I'd broken down
- the inhibitions to do.
- And then it really got vicious.
- And I couldn't function, I couldn't remember.
- Everybody would be sitting around,
- having one or two beers, and I'd be over--
- and I'd really get drunk.
- I was getting drunk, like, five days a week.
- And not just high drunk, but drunk,
- you know, where I was sick.
- I remember, like, every night I used
- to come home and go behind the garage and puke.
- And that's like day in and day out.
- And then I started--
- when I'd get drunk, I wouldn't get tired like that.
- It would speed me up.
- And I'd be walking around and I'd
- fall off things and fall down.
- And I always had big, huge bruises on my arms and my legs
- from falling all the time like that.
- And I was continuously drunk.
- And it really got to--
- it was really sickening.
- And the thing was that after a while like that,
- I wasn't having a good time, even in my own head,
- doing that.
- Even when I got drunk, the inhibitions
- were still there, right?
- I still had the pressure, social pressure
- of not doing anything, but just laying
- around being a drunk like that.
- And it really got super frustrating.
- INTERVIEWER 2: What were the inhibitions
- that you wanted to break down?
- You know, you said that you got so drunk
- that you couldn't do the things that you wanted to break down.
- What were those things that couldn't--
- MIKE: First, let's see, one major thing
- is like, well, I can remember my mother always putting ladies up
- on a pedestal for me.
- Like women are something ultra special like that.
- They're not people.
- They're above you, above men, "fe-males."
- And there was always Grandpa around who was--
- supposedly never took care of the family very good.
- So she's got this man image from him.
- My father wasn't with us, you know?
- And so, like I said, it was super feminine like that.
- So I was getting pressured.
- I can remember.
- I don't know.
- I can remember arguing with her, saying,
- "I didn't mean it that way."
- She says, "What?"
- Then she'd, like, embarrass me in front
- of relatives and friends who'd come to the house like that,
- her friends, my family when I'd see my relatives like that.
- Because I remember her saying, "He hates women!
- He hates women!
- Look what he said!
- Look what he said!"
- I said, "I didn't mean it like that."
- She says, "Oh, yeah, yeah."
- And you know, I was, like, driven away.
- And the whole thing like that, the whole thing
- of women being so idealistic is so, like, unapproachable,
- right?
- And that's one thing that always, on a social level,
- say, out at a Binky Brown's or something like that,
- is really hard for me now, just to imagine
- that those people are just people and not
- off by themselves.
- And it's really hard for me to break down things like that.
- Where I am is, like, I have to know ahead of time, you know?
- I have to talk a few times.
- I can't just go up and say hi in a place like that, because it's
- still too bizarre for me.
- And see, when I'm sober, it was even harder then.
- I couldn't even do it at all, you know?
- I couldn't go in a strange place and say, "I like that chick.
- I think I'll go over there and start a conversation with her."
- INTERVIEWER 2: Yeah, but then that's a pressure of the idea
- that hardly anybody goes through the same things about going
- into a bar.
- And the bars really aren't set up for people
- to meet each other, in a way.
- I mean, it's, like, pretty loud music,
- and it's pretty hard to go over and say hello and really
- get to know a person.
- MIKE: No, yeah, I know.
- INTERVIEWER 2: It's sort of a joke, the idea of setting up
- a bar on that aspect, you know?
- MIKE: Yeah, but see, like, the first thing I do is, like,
- I wouldn't even look at anybody in there.
- First place I'd head to when I went
- any place was just to the bar.
- I'd just sit there and I'd pour four or five, six drinks down
- there.
- And then I could get up and take a walk around,
- even to look what was there.
- It's really been difficult, because then I
- also had that extra thing of trying
- to live that image of being wild and hard
- guy and tough and crazy, see, acting bizarrely
- in order to attract, I don't know, attention, maybe?
- I think that was part of it, too, attract a lot of attention
- like that, you know?
- And how could I be serious then, right?
- And say, "Hi, how are you?
- It smells like she got on her fucking rag or something!
- Ah!
- Look at that one, a warthog!"
- You know?
- And that's what it was, you know?
- And then I'd just keep getting more and more frustration,
- drunker and drunker.
- And if I wanted to, I was too drunk.
- I was slobbering around, throwing up.
- I don't think I can really express to anybody the amounts
- that I used to drink, the great quantities,
- and how sick I used to get, like, every night.
- It was like my days would go like, I would get up,
- and I wasn't in school.
- It was summer between my first year of college and second.
- I didn't want to work.
- I could have worked if I wanted to.
- Didn't want to.
- I figure this is my last summer--
- (pause in recording)
- That was my last summer of freedom
- so I didn't want to work.
- It turned out it wasn't.
- It just got more frustrating after that.
- But I was under these--
- that image of being the most masculine man around,
- being the craziest guy around, doing all the most bizarre,
- sickening things he could to make
- everybody say, (unintelligible) be really gross and things
- like that.
- And I was under the pressure of putting women on a pedestal
- so far above me, you know, the unapproachable woman,
- to say all women are unapproachable.
- But it was like the unapproachable woman like that.
- And it just kept getting more and more frustrating for me.
- And I didn't--
- INTERVIEWER 2: Did you feel she was unapproachable because--
- MIKE: Because she was a woman.
- I had that thing in my head that every lady is a saint.
- And how could anybody as vile as me even
- think of wanting to fuck this woman
- or thinking anything like that?
- I can remember my mother finding dirty books of mine
- that were around the house.
- Saying, "You look at this trash!
- Trash, trash, trash."
- All the time, you know?
- It was never, like, so what, or anything like that.
- It was always, that's filthy.
- That's no good.
- And it was (unintelligible).
- I don't know.
- She really implanted in me that really well.
- So I had a lot of trouble like that, trying
- to have relations with women.
- It was really terrible.
- I really think that's one thing I--
- like I said, I don't want to put the blame there totally
- like that.
- But I don't know if I should or not.
- But I was-- that is a lot of pressure.
- It was on me.
- INTERVIEWER 2: Yeah, I was wondering because before you
- said that you knew the image wasn't the He-Man,
- or all the really big man that you were putting on,
- the violent man.
- I was wondering, since you knew the act was on,
- that it was really hard to approach these women,
- because you really didn't feel that you were
- a man that could approach them.
- MIKE: Yeah.
- See, you can see how intricately involved it was,
- the whole-- all the things accumulating
- into one mass of frustration, that they seemed to all fall
- into-- they all worked against me like that.
- And so I tried to break these inhibitions like that,
- and I didn't know how.
- And I was just like--
- I don't know.
- I feel like the only outlet I had was
- to put it down on paper.
- It was to write.
- That's where I think that came from like that,
- from inhibitions that--
- from inhibitions like that.
- It was my outlet.
- Yeah.
- And so I would get--
- I would go out and I'd have all these--
- get all these images of the unapproachable woman
- and these violent man.
- And it just--
- I can't say while--
- I'm losing what I'm trying to say.
- I'm with it, and then I lose it.
- This is like one, big frustrating experience
- to have to go through all that shit, having that wall,
- whatever, like--
- of that women are so unapproachable
- and so up on a pedestal and so much different.
- They're not people, you know?
- They're not men.
- They're not "hu-man."
- Human beings are like something really different like
- that, you know?
- INTERVIEWER 2: The woman that you
- said that you went after that would, like,
- dress like you with the cut-off work shirts or, you know,
- jazz stuff.
- They wore a look differently. (unintelligible).
- They were like the-- you associated more of them with
- the women in the magazines, or--
- MIKE: Yeah, yeah.
- Well, let's say, the women, say, in our group,
- say, in my peer group, high school peer group,
- they were out there, too, on the streets being women,
- like, say, out of the home, whatever like that.
- INTERVIEWER 1: So because they were more like men,
- they were more human.
- MIKE: Yeah, they were more--
- I could relate to them as people like that, you know?
- But then again, those were friends,
- and we weren't-- we weren't approaching them in bizarre
- instances.
- INTERVIEWER 2: What do you mean, bizarre instances--
- MIKE: Not bizarre instances.
- You weren't approaching them in situations like at the bar,
- because you were all friends.
- Just like going in there and saying, like,
- "Hi, Betty," you know?
- "Hi, Jim," whatever.
- Just, like, they were people.
- INTERVIEWER 2: Sex was never involved.
- MIKE: No, I wasn't involved with those people like that.
- When it would come to the sexual aspect like that--
- you know?
- That's really a hard thing to break when you--
- like I said, I really think that was plugged into me.
- INTERVIEWER 2: Was it ever mentioned between you
- and, say, these women who were in your group,
- about having sex with them?
- MIKE: No, not that I recall.
- Everybody was, like, openly--
- everybody was always like, fuck this, fuck that.
- All the women were the same as the men.
- As far as I knew it was like that.
- But it seemed to me, like, they just
- have never had sex with us, like the friends on the street.
- We just never, like, associated them.
- INTERVIEWER 2: They had sex outside,
- and you had sex outside.
- MIKE: Yeah, it was kind of like that, like they--
- I would have my girlfriend.
- And then we would go back--
- I would leave.
- And my girlfriend lived in the projects, (unintelligible).
- But I was--
- INTERVIEWER 2: How did you get to know your girl--
- it was like go to bars to find--
- MIKE: No, it was before bars even when I met her.
- It was like, we picked--
- I picked her up, just walking along through the Plaza,
- you know?
- I just grabbed her hand, and everybody else
- was grabbing women around that were in her group.
- And so we all grabbed women, too.
- Like, Denny grabbed one woman, so I was, well,
- this woman is nearest me so I'll grab her hand.
- And that's how I met her.
- And then I said, "Why don't I meet you at the show tomorrow?"
- And she said "Yeah."
- I said, "All right."
- And it just went on like that.
- But then, well, what happened is I would go over there on Friday
- and I would stay, like, two hours at her house,
- or we'd go--
- I didn't drive at that time.
- I would call her--
- I would go visit her house, I think, like,
- (unintelligible) what you call it exactly, her house.
- And we'd sit around and talk and watch TV and shit.
- Then I would leave, like, at nine o'clock
- and be back just in time for all the good things
- that all the men were doing with all the other men.
- And then we'd talk about how frustrating
- our experiences are with women.
- We'd sing-- are you familiar with Bob Dylan's "Ballad
- in Plain D"--
- I Don't Believe You", Bob Dylan's song,
- "I Don't Believe You"?
- Evidently, she won't, evidently she won't, she just
- acts like we never have met.
- Just continuously singing that to each other.
- We'd just sit around and go, how disastrous this love
- affair is going, when, you know, you just left.
- Because you wanted to come there and moan and groan over things
- like that.
- And then Saturday night was always wide in the fields
- with all the men.
- And then Sunday was, like, call up, "Want to go to the show?
- Meet me there.
- Have your father drop you off at the daily show."
- And we'd sit together and neck for, like, the two movies.
- Never seen anything there.
- Then she would go home and I would go home.
- And then we'd just call each other
- during the week like that.
- And then on Friday afternoon, everybody
- would just come to my--
- Denny and Rodney would come over to my house,
- get the glue bag out, beer, get high, sleep,
- and then go-- you know?
- It was just-- it was, like, broken like that.
- And what I think now, the kind of woman I would like now
- would be someone who would do this all with me,
- and come to the men and (unintelligible) the men
- and all consistent like that.
- Like, instead of that-- it was like--
- INTERVIEWER 2: Do you feel that you're still into that whole--
- I mean, what are you relationships with the men
- that you party with now?
- Are they somewhat the same?
- Like, different-- instead of getting drunk in the fields,
- everyone gets drunk at Vincent's?
- Or party at Vincent's?
- MIKE: Yeah, in a way, yeah.
- Yeah, I'll just say yeah to that.
- It's not the same, but it is the same.
- (unintelligible).
- INTERVIEWER 1: But you wouldn't leave, like,
- a woman you were with to party at Vincent's.
- MIKE: No, no, wouldn't do that no more.
- No.
- I would like someone to bring along to party with like that.
- INTERVIEWER 2: You'd like to have everyone have someone
- there so everyone can party and then just,
- like-- because obviously, the rest of the guys
- would want that too, right?
- Do you think?
- MIKE: I think so, yeah.
- But unfortunately, I don't know, it seems like a lot of people
- don't do that though.
- That's one thing that frustrates me
- with these guys who go-- my friends who got married,
- you know?
- You don't see them anymore.
- And I don't see why that happens.
- They get married and they fade away,
- and you never see them again.
- They drive by and beat the horn at each other.
- Yeah, I used to hang around with them all the time.
- (unintelligible).
- INTERVIEWER 2: It's sort of like they don't have the connection
- that you want.
- I mean, there doesn't seem like there
- is a connection of the guys-- all the guys
- staying with the guys, and them bringing their lovers with them
- to meet the guys and party with the guys.
- It's like once they found the lovers,
- (unintelligible) the guys.
- MIKE: Yeah, unfortunately that's--
- I know at least I feel like that would make me even more happier
- in the partying like that.
- When someone's with me, (unintelligible) some woman
- I'm out with, I come in and everybody is jumping around,
- having a good time.
- Like, I want to have a good time there, too.
- But I also want my woman to have a good time with everybody
- there, too, you know?
- INTERVIEWER 2: What if you brought
- someone who wouldn't want to have-- like,
- that isn't her good time?
- MIKE: (Mike laughs) Well, I don't know.
- Well, I should say--
- I don't know.
- But I haven't come in contact with that many people
- who don't want to have a good time like I do.
- I wouldn't associate with those people.
- Well, I can have a good time in different ways, too.
- But I have a good time doing that, occasionally.
- I will say I won't do it everyday because it
- would get boring, I think.
- But I think that's really nice like that.
- I mean, to have different sexes together like that.
- INTERVIEWER 2: No, I wasn't trying to say, well,
- you'd like to break it off.
- Because you were saying you'd like to be with your friends.
- And I was telling you, possibly, that she
- would like to be with her friends,
- also that she's been partying and yucking up all this time
- when you were high, you know?
- So possibly, like, she'd want to bring you there instead
- of you going where you are.
- MIKE: Yeah, well, that's immaterial.
- We're not going to think about that, right?
- No, but I would just say what happened before with me, I
- never thought of that she'd be out Saturday night partying
- too, just waiting for me there, like a puppy dog, a pet,
- is there when I want her, or-- you know.
- And other times it didn't matter.
- It was just, like, a word, my girlfriend is there.
- What's she doing?
- Uh, I don't know.
- I seen her with this guy.
- Nah, not her.
- And it was OK for me to do that, you see?
- INTERVIEWER 2: Well, I mean, do you feel that way now?
- MIKE: What?
- INTERVIEWER 2: I mean, is this attitude how you feel now,
- or this was the attitude that you had?
- MIKE: That was an attitude I had then.
- You know, like the girlfriend was there when I wanted her,
- when I needed her, when I wanted to be with her, when
- I wanted to go out to a social function, something like that.
- INTERVIEWER 2: Junior prom or something.
- MIKE: I didn't go to junior prom though.
- I went to (unintelligible) and got drunk with my girlfriend,
- took her along, you know?
- That's how nice I was, with the Howie's bar,
- Howie's (unintelligible).
- (unintelligible background speaking)
- MIKE: This is the guy--
- I never wanted to go.
- I didn't want to go to junior prom.
- But my senior prom--
- MIKE: I remember, we had our own senior prom.
- My group did.
- We had our own in my basement, with hard cider
- and the cats-- the image of Satan and the cat.
- And that was my junior prom there.
- And I didn't go because I felt like I didn't fit in
- with those people.
- INTERVIEWER 2: We didn't. (unintelligible)
- MIKE: Yeah, I really felt awkward with--
- I couldn't-- I didn't know how to play Pinochle.
- You guys were into Pinochle, (unintelligible) I remember,
- every time you'd turn around.
- INTERVIEWER 2: We didn't have the money to get drunk.
- We'd play cards.
- (laughter)
- MIKE: But we didn't money either, but we always managed.
- When me and Denny used to walk, like, all the way
- from our house, way down to (unintelligible)
- and Bailey to see the bookie, so he could run and get us
- wine, so we'd go, and chug your wine down and get drunk.
- It was continuous, like, always getting high.
- It was really fun.
- And we laugh now when we think about that stuff,
- because we were consistently-- the only thing-- it
- wasn't going out to do anything else but get high.
- I have to get into something else.
- I think I keep repeating myself.
- I don't know.
- INTERVIEWER 2: Why don't you tell
- what you'd like to have now.
- I mean, like, those were the values you
- had about relationships before.
- How do you feel about relationships now,
- or what kind of relationship would you like to have now?
- You know, like you said--
- just you were explaining before how the girlfriends would just
- be there anytime.
- And yeah, you just wanted to (unintelligible)
- how have you overcome, say, the inhibitions that you
- said you had before?
- How do you feel about relationships now, or just
- going out and meeting people?
- Do you still really get super drunk at bars or--
- MIKE: No, it happens, but I don't go out, like, purpose--
- I don't need to go out and have ten drinks
- before I can talk to anybody.
- I can go out now and, like, have one or two
- beers for the whole night and have a good time, as much as I
- could getting slobbered.
- You know, at least (unintelligible) like that.
- And I feel now that I'm beginning
- to realize that I've had these inhibitions like that,
- that they're going away.
- When I first realized through this group,
- in the group, when I brought up that thing
- about the alter name, the other name that I had for myself--
- INTERVIEWER 1: What was that?
- MIKE: Anubis.
- Remember (unintelligible)--
- INTERVIEWER 2: Why don't you explain that.
- MIKE: Oh, well, see, the other person, the image,
- had his own name.
- It was Michael Anubis.
- INTERVIEWER 1: I knew you had another image, but I didn't--
- MIKE: Yeah, the most masculine man,
- he wasn't Mike (unintelligible).
- He was Mike Anubis.
- INTERVIEWER 1: Where did you get the name?
- MIKE: I was going through a book,
- and Anubis is the Egyptian God of Death.
- He pulls the scales of life and death like that.
- And that sounded good to me.
- We were all giving ourselves names at that time, you know?
- Denny was Dyeus and so I was Anubis.
- And that was the image's name.
- And through this-- when I brought that up
- at this group like that.
- And I don't exactly remember how we
- talked about it, whatever like that,
- but relating to that name.
- And I went home and started thinking about that.
- So I just felt this other person, like, leaving me,
- you know?
- And I was rid of that.
- And all of a sudden, I was able to-- like
- before, I wasn't able to write my name, Mike (unintelligible),
- and relate to that.
- No, that's not me.
- I was Mike Anubis.
- And so now, I put my name all over the place.
- And I'm really happy with that, you know?
- I'm really conscious of that name.
- That name is my name.
- It's not anything else.
- And it makes me really happy when I think about that.
- That I can just--
- I was just laying in bed, and I just felt like the energy,
- like, just leaving me, and this other person just, like,
- flowing right out of me and just getting--
- and then just seeing me standing there, but--
- the image of me standing there and--
- UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Come on up.
- You know where it is?
- MIKE: I was just so relieved after I knew that, you know,
- that was gone.
- So I didn't have to be that anymore.
- It was such a relief.
- And I don't know if I should-- so what?
- It's only tape.
- You can cut it out if you want.
- I thought of a real good story after that, along with that.
- Someone was-- this would be for the story, writing the story.
- There would be a person where that energy would flow out
- of him.
- But the energy would become real and do away
- with the actual person, and the image lives.
- I put it all together, just-- you know, it's just,
- like, in notes, just a note that I've gotten written down
- someplace that I carry in my head.
- If it ever comes out, it comes out.
- If it doesn't-- you can just imagine the energy just flowing
- out of the person like that.
- You can envision it on film or something like that.
- And flowing out like that, and then--
- INTERVIEWER 2: So you felt you were Anubis.
- Or you wanted to feel that your image wasn't dead?
- MIKE: Yeah, well-- wait, I don't understand what you mean.
- INTERVIEWER 2: Is this just a story you were thinking about,
- or was this the image that you felt Anubis--
- when you were thinking about a story of him,
- would be like his energy just flowing out?
- MIKE: No, it would be me with Anubis' name.
- And Anubis would be leaving, and I would
- be left, Mike (unintelligible).
- And then Anubis would--
- this is only in the story.
- This is nothing factual about what I feel.
- The image, energy of Anubis would turn on (unintelligible)
- and do away with (unintelligible).
- And the image would continue.
- And the real person would be there.
- INTERVIEWER 1: This is just something
- that occurred to you recently?
- MIKE: Yeah, well, that occurred to me a few days
- after I felt that energy--
- the Anubis leaving me.
- And as soon as I was conscious that that's what really was--
- I was really playing up to Anubis.
- It was really alien for me to have my own name.
- So I'm glad that's gone.
- I'm really relieved.
- And I'm feeling like I can see now all the ways that I--
- that's why I kept saying before, I
- don't want to put the blame too much on the pressures from home
- like that.
- Because I think I'm realizing now
- that the pressure was there, but it was me
- who turned and formed the box.
- All the bricks were laying there.
- It was me who actually put up the walls, though.
- And so I didn't have to do that.
- So now they're just coming down.
- The bricks are still going to be there.
- I don't think-- maybe you can, you can get a--
- I shouldn't say.
- I said, you can get away from it,
- like, totally if you want to.
- It takes time.
- That's what I'm trying to do now is,
- like-- as soon as I realize something that I don't like,
- as soon as you become conscious of it like that,
- it seems to disappear and fall away like that.
- That's really pleasurable for me.
- INTERVIEWER 2: Has it become less frustrating for you
- since you lost that image?
- MIKE: Yeah.
- It is.
- It's a lot less frustrating.
- I mean, that's one thing that frustration,
- as I look back now, played a big part in everything I did.
- It was really frustrating.
- And now I don't--
- I don't have that frustration now,
- because I'm not forced to do-- by myself,
- I don't have to do all those other shit things.
- If I like something, then just do it, you know?
- That's as far as it goes.
- I don't have to, like, portray anything. (pause) (Mike laughs)
- And one thing I used to identify with--
- this is another reason why my love affairs and things failed,
- I think, is because--
- are you familiar with Cyrano De Bergerac, the character?
- INTERVIEWER 1: Mm-hmm.
- MIKE: The character himself, the noble man,
- very noble person, right?
- Help his friends, do anything, you know, like that.
- But let me see, what am I trying to do?
- Well, I identified with Cyrano in that he had a tragic love
- affair, right?
- And at the end, he hands out the plume, the white plume.
- He says, my white plume, that's all I haven't surrendered yet.
- And that's heavy symbolism in there.
- But this is where I felt like--
- that seemed really romantic to me
- to be-- to, like, love and lose.
- It is romantic, and it's tragic. (Mike laughs)
- But I was all for this really heavy romantic
- (unintelligible).
- I've loved and lost.
- And oh, now I can dwindle away and I can get high,
- and I can lay around and say, oh, wow, where did I go wrong?
- And I used to identify with that a whole lot,
- that particular character.
- That's my favorite play.
- It still is my favorite play but for--
- I don't identify any longer.
- I'm no longer swashbuckling, tragic lover,
- losing because of a--
- see, oh, and another thing is that Cyrano
- had the outward deformity that kept him away like that.
- See his nose, his long nose.
- And that was his thing that was holding him back.
- And I had all these other things, too,
- that were holding me back from becoming the whole man.
- And that's the way I pictured--
- INTERVIEWER 2: What did you feel those things were?
- MIKE: Like not being able to approach, say, women and have--
- just have enjoyable conversations like that.
- And (unintelligible) almost irreplace-- no,
- irreplace that ain't the word.
- Untouchable, because you're, like, so far away.
- It wasn't like that with close friends,
- though, or with the girlfriends that after I knew them
- for a while.
- It was like going out and meeting, say, picking up
- some women in a bar.
- That wasn't-- I can't do that.
- And it's really rough, because my friends,
- they were like doing it all the time.
- That's frustrating right there.
- So I would be drunk all the time, too.
- So that's dually frustrating.
- And it was just one vicious thing like that.
- I feel I'm returning again to the same shit.
- INTERVIEWER 2: OK, (unintelligible)
- I'm going to give it to you.
- You had a lot of stuff before when
- you started talking about work, when you started work.
- And you suddenly got into it.
- And just explain work, like the conditions.
- And you were talking about money, and how it went too far.
- MIKE: I feel like that after awhile,
- that work, for once you get off the labor force
- and start, say, the managers and the presidents of the plants,
- and the President of General Motors
- and the vice presidents and the big advertising.
- And you spend, like-- they don't put the forty-hour week in.
- They put, like, the eighty-hour week in.
- And they're consistently-- they live the work.
- They live the job totally like that.
- I feel that after a while, it's not
- money that drives them anymore.
- It's like they have an inner need to get--
- to do that in themselves.
- It's no longer-- money isn't what they're after anymore.
- They're after something that's inside of them that
- needs to be satisfied in work, and the growing and rising
- in power like that does it.
- INTERVIEWER 2: Do you find that in yourself?
- You said--
- MIKE: Yeah.
- INTERVIEWER 2: --before--
- MIKE: Yeah, I do find that in myself.
- But--
- INTERVIEWER 2: Why don't you explain how you first started
- and when you started, and now you're a production
- manager or something?
- MIKE: Yeah, well, you see, it started--
- the first time I noticed was when
- I was in the (unintelligible).
- I was on literary magazines.
- First year, I was on the staff.
- The second year, I was editor.
- So this gave me a lot of prestige.
- I put a lot of work into it.
- And what happened then is all of a sudden
- I found myself as float committee chairman, right?
- And I had to go through all the papers like that and all that.
- And then I was a student government representative
- for my curriculum.
- And that's all I was doing, was when
- something had to be done, they'd come to me and I'd accept it,
- because I just liked doing it then.
- I didn't even think about the work and the time that
- had to be put into it.
- INTERVIEWER 1: You were still into wearing black
- at that time?
- MIKE: Yeah.
- You see?
- And wow, and I really enjoyed doing that.
- I had a beard at that time and everything like that,
- and I was always scrounging the skull and the vests
- and the cowboy boots like that.
- And I'd just run around.
- And I was running myself ragged.
- I cracked up one night almost, too, with my mother.
- I broke into tears.
- I don't know if it was a nervous breakdown or what it was.
- INTERVIEWER 2: What happened?
- MIKE: Huh?
- INTERVIEWER 2: Why don't you explain what happened?
- How'd you get to that point?
- MIKE: I was doing all these things at one time.
- I was editing the magazine.
- We had our last issue coming out.
- And I was doing a lot of layout work.
- We were doing the-- building the float at that time.
- I was the chairman of that.
- And we were fooling around with the float.
- And I had school yet, and I couldn't let my--
- in myself, I couldn't let that drop
- below a C. That's all I wanted was a C.
- But I didn't want to flunk out.
- And I was at school.
- I was playing the image.
- So I remember one night I was out.
- We were drinking and it was on a Sunday and I came home.
- And I don't remember exactly what she said.
- She was sitting there and it was about midnight.
- And I was half drunk.
- And I remember she says something,
- and I just say, "What the hell do you expect me to do?"
- And I just broke into tears.
- And I just cried for about three hours there.
- She was like, "Oh, take it easy."
- And the whole, you know, coddling me
- in her arms and everything.
- Then I just cried for three hours.
- I just fell apart.
- I guess it just got too much.
- That's all I can--
- everything just got to me at that one second like that.
- It just fell apart.
- Everything that held together, like,
- all the reasons that made me do all these things, it
- just, like--
- INTERVIEWER 1: Vanished.
- MIKE: Vanished.
- And I just broke into tears.
- And it's this really strange feeling, too, just, you
- know, just because--
- INTERVIEWER 2: Strange just to cry or just--
- MIKE: Just (unintelligible)--
- INTERVIEWER 2: (unintelligible) cry before that?
- Or it was just really strange to have
- to see yourself break down that much and cry?
- MIKE: No, because I cry--
- I get misty.
- I don't cry outright like that, just to say--
- to just cry like that.
- But I get misty.
- That's what I call it.
- Your eyes water like that.
- And when I'm heavy into a movie like that, I get misty.
- I'm really like that, too.
- I really (unintelligible).
- But that was-- that's like a different kind of crying.
- It's not like--
- I just collapsed.
- And I was really depressed for a few days after that.
- Then I kind of put everything back together in its place,
- and I started doing that again.
- INTERVIEWER 2: Back to what you were doing before?
- (unintelligible) do a lot of work again (unintelligible)?
- MIKE: Um-hm, um-hm.
- And that was when I was in school.
- And now, when I talk to Denny like that,
- it comes off to him that that's what I'm out
- after is not how much work has got to be done,
- but the prestige (unintelligible),
- prestige from your peers.
- I don't know.
- Whatever it is though, that big need
- to do all the things like that, he says.
- And I have to agree with him to a certain point
- that I go overboard on a lot of things.
- But what I would like to see myself do now
- is do that with my art, with my words.
- That's what I'd like to do now.
- (end of recording)