Audio Interview, Pam Barrale, March 19, 2012
- PAM BARRALE: '72, I had graduated from MCC.
- Did you ever know Geryllaeyn Naundorf?
- EVELYN BAILEY: No.
- PAM BARRALE: OK, so, I mean, she was my first partner.
- And I was-- I had gone to MCC, and I graduated and transferred
- to Geneseo, But.
- I lasted there like two months because all I was doing
- was coming into the city, you know, to be--
- yeah, but that's where I met Michael Robertson.
- Michael Robertson was a graduate student there.
- He and I tried to start a group on campus
- at Geneseo, which went over in 1972 like a lead balloon.
- Anyway, then I deserted him.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: They're still trying
- to start a group on campus at Geneseo.
- PAM BARRALE: I do remember.
- So I left him there.
- But he'll talk about coming into the city,
- then he'd come into the city and stay with us.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- PAM BARRALE: From Geneseo in his little VW bug.
- EVELYN BAILEY: But it was difficult to start
- a group in Geneseo.
- PAM BARRALE: Yeah.
- I mean, we had a few people show up,
- but the dean, I mean I got called into the dean's office.
- I don't think they were sorry to see me drop out
- and leave because '72.
- What was going on there?
- So--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Pam, let me ask you firstly--
- PAM BARRALE: Sure.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: What's the correct spelling
- of your last name?
- PAM BARRALE: B-A-R-R-A-L-E.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Barrale.
- OK.
- You go by Pam or Pamela?
- PAM BARRALE: Pam.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Just Pam, OK.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And are you still on Crosman?
- PAM BARRALE: Um-hm.
- Crosman Terrace.
- EVELYN BAILEY: So you--
- PAM BARRALE: So we went to the U of R.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Where you from Rochester?
- PAM BARRALE: Yeah.
- Yeah, I went to East Irondequoit Schools.
- I never left, and I never will.
- Unless my children someday say I'm
- not capable of taking care of myself
- and they move me somewhere.
- Yeah, I've always lived in Rochester.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Did you know when you were in high school
- that you were gay?
- PAM BARRALE: No, but--
- yeah, no.
- I mean, when I look back on it, every guy I dated was gay.
- I don't know what that means.
- I went to Monroe Community College
- and we were just all people doing our own little thing,
- but then I got involved with somebody there,
- and I mean over time--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- PAM BARRALE: It became pretty evident.
- So we got together, like, sort of over the summer,
- but I was going to Geneseo.
- And then, on a personal history basis,
- I was going to her house a lot.
- She lived in Rush, close enough, that she could come get me
- and I could--
- and her parents figured out what was going on
- and said, "You can't sleep together in our house.
- We don't care if you two women, a man and a woman,
- you can't do that."
- So we left.
- But you know, I have to say, I was twenty years old,
- I just went along for the ride.
- Walt Delaney and Catherine Rivers
- had a house on River Road, or East River Road, or something.
- They were renting a house.
- It was Walt, and Catherine, and somebody else--
- and we went-- and Brian.
- Brian Shiner.
- I wish I knew what happened to him.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Brian?
- PAM BARRALE: Shiner.
- I don't think-- if you talked to, like--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Last name?
- PAM BARRALE: Shiner.
- S-H-I-N-E-R. but he left town years ago,
- I had no idea what happened to him.
- EVELYN BAILEY: OK.
- PAM BARRALE: So we went there, and then the next thing--
- I mean I was never at school anyway.
- I was dropping out of school.
- And we needed to find a place to live
- and Whitey had just finished renovating the upstairs of 94
- Boardman Street.
- And there was an ad in The Empty Closet
- and we called him and we had like a half a month's rent.
- We had no money.
- We had no things, but he rented us his apartment.
- So, we moved.
- I went home to inform my parents that I had dropped out
- of school, had an apartment in the city, and was a lesbian.
- I sort of have left them with that and went on my merry way.
- I couldn't understand why they were so upset.
- As only a twenty-- really, really, as only
- a twenty-year-old could do.
- Hello.
- So, anyway, So then we got to live upstairs from Whitey
- for several, a couple of years.
- I don't know, then Whitey and Jay Baker
- and Walt bought a house on Harvard Street,
- and Michael was done with school.
- So Michael was going to rent an apartment there,
- and he went to look at it, and we went with him.
- And the third floor was available, and oh sure,
- why don't we move.
- So we moved upstairs then from Michael.
- EVELYN BAILEY: OK.
- PAM BARRALE: You know, I mean, that's sort of--
- so, when the U of R suggested that it really
- wasn't a college group that was meeting, that it was more
- of a community group and suggested that perhaps going
- somewhere else was a good idea.
- You know, I sort of lose track if from there the whole bull's
- head place was that--
- OK, so that was where the women in the men
- split, except we went with the men, because--
- EVELYN BAILEY: They were your friends.
- PAM BARRALE: Bill, Tim, Whitey, Jay,
- I mean those were my people.
- I mean I also--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Bill who?
- PAM BARRALE: Giancursio Bill so--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Tom Ferrarese's partner?
- PAM BARRALE: Yes.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Bill Giancursio.
- Do you recall a year?
- PAM BARRALE: OK, let's see.
- See, that's the problem.
- It's forty years.
- It's forty years, or it will be forty years in the fall.
- I'll be sixty in August.
- So, I was twenty, so it all gets a little mushy.
- We probably were let's see around--
- EVELYN BAILEY: '73, then.
- PAM BARRALE: We were on Boardman street,
- at least for a couple of years, because Michael
- must have finished up his graduate work at Geneseo
- and was moving to Rochester.
- So, that would have taken us from '72 to maybe '74.
- But in that time period, when did--
- boy, I don't know.
- EVELYN BAILEY: OK.
- PAM BARRALE: I mean I knew, I met,
- like, Liz and Marge were together then, at U of R.
- And they lived on Rona Place.
- See, I knew all these places.
- They were together for--
- I mean, so I certainly knew, Karen Hagberg
- was around back then.
- But anyway, we ended up going with the guys
- until things kind of came back together.
- And I'm not sure--
- so I worked a lot on The Empty Closet.
- Tim was the editor.
- When we worked, we did it in the basement of Jim's.
- That's my first memory of working on The Empty Closet.
- You'd go through the dance floor.
- I don't know, have you been around here?
- No.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Not at the original-- no.
- Jim's was gone by the time I came out.
- PAM BARRALE: Yeah, OK.
- So, there was a dance floor and there
- was a door in the back left corner,
- and you go down to the basement.
- And it was Bill and Tim and myself and I
- don't know who else.
- And then when we'd leave, we danced a little
- as we danced our way out.
- But those were the days when we got to the next level,
- and things would go to the printer and get typed,
- and then they'd come back and then you'd cut them up.
- Those were fun days.
- I mean, I suppose computers are fun.
- And then from there, we started doing it over on University.
- You know, that University and Culver Road.
- We were down in there, Whitey was involved, too.
- If you go down Culver Road and you turn right on University,
- sort of, there's a gas station, and then there's
- a brick building.
- It's across, now, from some grocery store,
- and, like, a couple fast food places.
- Anyway, we rented--
- I don't know why we left Jim's, but we rented space,
- sort of, down there.
- Tim was still involved.
- So we were doing The Empty Closet there.
- That probably was the whole-- that whole time frame
- was probably '72 to '75 or something.
- I don't know.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
- PAM BARRALE: I don't--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Then from there, though, it
- went to the Genesee co-op.
- PAM BARRALE: Yeah, then the offices
- where you went down the alley.
- Yes, and the men had an office and the women had an office,
- but there was that shared space.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And The Empty Closet was there.
- PAM BARRALE: Probably.
- I split up with that individual, and I
- started to live at the Riverview so I
- wasn't doing The Empty Closet, I was just
- spending every day and night at the Riverview, which
- was great fun too.
- I mean it was--
- do you know where the Riverview was?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I know where it was, yeah.
- PAM BARRALE: Yeah.
- The Riverview.
- Did you go to the Riverview?
- God, I would love--
- if I could one night, Friday nights,
- I mean, you'd just go there and everybody knew everybody.
- You know, it was so much fun.
- And then if you were there Saturday night,
- it meant-- we'd call that date night.
- So only those people would go.
- Then it would be very quiet, they
- would be off doing their whole dates.
- EVELYN BAILEY: OK.
- PAM BARRALE: And then that was-- then there was Paul's Grocery
- softball.
- Paul's is gone, too, but I still have my jacket.
- Which is a joke, having a jacket.
- And you know, that was while Carol Calogne was around,
- Ben, and Patty, Patty G., and Barb Montonia.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Oh yeah.
- PAM BARRALE: I mean, I have--
- there's pictures floating around--
- I have pictures from that softball.
- I mean that was--
- Marilyn Spiegelman, I don't know if you knew all those folks.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Patty G. Has passed away.
- PAM BARRALE: Yeah, she died a few years ago.
- She was--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Barb Montonia
- PAM BARRALE: Barb Montonia is still around.
- Sharon Rosenberg was the coach.
- EVELYN BAILEY: That was the softball.
- PAM BARRALE: Yeah, that was the softball team.
- You know, and then we were also still doing
- speaking engagements.
- I mean, I remember when Tim and a couple of people,
- that first one back again.
- I don't know, it was the early seventies.
- He was teaching and they did a speaking engagement.
- But then I was really involved with the speaker's bureau
- but again, I couldn't even tell you the frame,
- but, you know, there was a lot of that going on.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Talk to us a little bit about Walt Delaney,
- because Walt--
- PAM BARRALE: He's passed away, too.
- EVELYN BAILEY: --has passed away.
- PAM BARRALE: Yeah, yeah.
- Walt and Wayne Albert moved into 94
- Boardman Street when we moved out.
- Walt taught yoga.
- Well, Whitey, was still going to visit Walt once a year.
- In fact, he went to Hawaii this year.
- He thought it might be the last I saw him.
- (unintelligible) Randy's right before he left.
- EVELYN BAILEY: But Walt wasn't a student.
- PAM BARRALE: No.
- Walt was-- no, gosh, how did Walt land--
- Whitey would-- I don't even know how Walt--
- I probably did at the time, but I don't know
- how Walt landed in Rochester.
- Walt was older than I was.
- But I don't-- he taught yoga.
- I don't know how he ended up in Rochester.
- EVELYN BAILEY: But he taught yoga.
- PAM BARRALE: But he was.
- He taught yoga and The Empty Closet
- that I can picture, his partner then, George--
- there was a picture.
- He did a lot of photography and he
- did photography for-- if you look back probably
- into the archives, like, around '74,
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Walt--
- PAM BARRALE: You'll see Walt Delaney
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Walt did the photography?
- OK.
- PAM BARRALE: He did some photography.
- Because I remember, there was an Empty Closet
- and he had done the cover.
- And Bill was involved.
- There was an Empty Closet where Bill did graphic-y stuff.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yes, because in the EC,
- you'll find Bill Giancurso, graphic artist or whatever.
- PAM BARRALE: Yeah.
- Well and a little while ago, it was really fun.
- They ran that disco.
- I mean, I still have my print from when he--
- in fact, Emily has it because she liked it.
- When Bill did that series of prints of disco,
- which was us dancing, that was Jim's.
- That was around the Empty Closet stuff.
- And when I opened The Empty Closet that month,
- and went oh, look, look my name's in there.
- Because whatever the series was of those.
- You know, I got one of them because I
- think it was Tim and myself and maybe he put himself in there.
- I don't know.
- But, you know, with Bill still around.
- But I don't know what he's been up to
- in terms of this sort of stuff.
- EVELYN BAILEY: He was more serious, Tim.
- PAM BARRALE: Oh, Tim was?
- Oh, in terms of The Empty Closet?
- Oh, you've heard stories about Tim?
- We were all like, oh yes, well if you
- get Bill and the two of us, started,
- yeah, Tim could get really mad at us.
- EVELYN BAILEY: So tell me some stories, Pam.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, wait a minute, let's--
- I kind of want to go back to the beginning
- here, of 1972, because we kind of rushed
- through a lot of stuff.
- You came up to the U of R in 1972, right?
- PAM BARRALE: Yes.
- We went to-- yes.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Talk to me about first, landing on that campus
- and what were you finding?
- What were you emerging yourself into?
- PAM BARRALE: See, I'm not--
- you can't hold me to it.
- This will be the memoir where they go, no.
- My memory is that it was--
- my memory is like, that we wandered over there
- like spring, summer.
- I was really interested in seeing gay people
- because I really didn't know any.
- And it was really-- you know-- and to see--
- I mean, I literally, if you could
- plug a computer in my brain, I remember
- that moment of seeing Marge and Liz which
- I don't know how Marge feels about that,
- so I don't want to make a big deal of it,
- because that was-- those two were together
- and they were together a long time--
- but sitting on like a big chair, and I was like, oh my God,
- look at that.
- And I think that was--
- I think we were wandering over there before I really came out.
- EVELYN BAILEY: What was going through your head
- when you saw them?
- PAM BARRALE: Well it was just like,
- whoa, look at that, that's really cool.
- I have told people that in my mind back then,
- if you hadn't been sexually active,
- then you couldn't label yourself as gay.
- So I came at it from that perspective.
- So you couldn't just identify with '72 anyway.
- Hello.
- It was more, you know, you had to.
- So for me it was like, oh look.
- Where do I fit in all of this?
- It was a little cloudy at the time.
- But this person I went to college
- with, I was like, oh I really love you, oh OK.
- Yes. twenty years old.
- Oh, OK.
- Oh, we can't stay here.
- OK, we're leaving.
- Oh, OK.
- OK.
- La la la, you're twenty, right.
- I mean, like, OK.
- I'm probably flunking out of school
- anyway because I never go.
- You know.
- EVELYN BAILEY: So when you got in-- how did you
- get involved with the GLF?
- PAM BARRALE: Well, again, '72, so you had to--
- again, my perception was that it was them against us.
- So, if people are going to be mean to you,
- you are going to shut them out first.
- You know, and we all had our work boots
- and there was something to be proved
- in my twenty-year-old brain.
- And so it was more important to get out there and start
- living your life.
- And what was school, anyway.
- Nobody understood anyway, and it just was--
- it was a really exciting time.
- I mean, and the configuration of finding Michael.
- I mean, Michael happened to end.
- And Whitey happening to have his apartment in The Empty Closet,
- I mean, who could ask for anything more?
- I mean, the good times we had living upstairs from Whitey,
- on the porch playing the recorders.
- You know, just, did you know Diane (unintelligible)?
- You probably didn't.
- EVELYN BAILEY: No.
- PAM BARRALE: Yeah, see.
- There used to be a health food store
- right on the corner of Boardman and Monroe
- and she worked there.
- So, it was just--
- it was just a time.
- It was a time.
- It was-- for me, everything was new, anyway.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: But what was it providing for you that you
- weren't finding anywhere else?
- PAM BARRALE: Well, community.
- I mean, especially since at MCC, we had our little--
- I was involved in theater.
- We had our little theater community,
- but I was done there.
- So then to be in a relationship, and that first relationship
- and sort of literally we didn't have anything.
- You know, we had the clothes, and how
- I remember going back to her parents' house, and like,
- I think Whitey didn't have a refrigerator in the place
- yet because it wasn't quite done.
- Like, going in and taking a can of tuna,
- and a jar of peanut butter in her mother's pantry,
- you know, and a stick of butter, and sticking it in.
- Because it was probably--
- I probably dropped out of school late October, maybe
- early November.
- You know, sticking the butter in the window.
- So then there was just the whole excitement of furnishing.
- You know, going to the thrift stores or whatever.
- You know, going to the yard sale and--
- EVELYN BAILEY: What was Rosedale?
- PAM BARRALE: Rosedale?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Oh, I heard you wrong.
- PAM BARRALE: Pardon me?
- EVELYN BAILEY: I thought you said Rosedale.
- PAM BARRALE: Oh, no.
- EVELYN BAILEY: OK.
- PAM BARRALE: I'm trying to remember who else was around.
- I mean, like, some people I have faces
- and I couldn't tell you their names anymore-- of people
- just kind of hanging out.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So were you primarily
- involved with the Gay Liberation Front
- even when it moved off of campus,
- or were you more focused on working on The Empty Closet?
- Where did your energies meet?
- Where were they directed mostly?
- PAM BARRALE: I remember Bull's Head,
- and I remember helping get that ready,
- and I remember a Halloween party.
- We came as Mickey and Minnie.
- I mean, I again, jeez, it was forty years ago.
- I probably worked more on The Empty Closet, initially.
- Then I was really involved with the speakers' bureau.
- So like, I coordinated the speakers bureau
- for some length of time.
- But again, the time frame--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, time frame's not important.
- I'm more interested in your experience of being
- part of the speakers bureau.
- I mean, what were you finding out
- when you're going out to schools or speaking to groups
- or what were you hoping to achieve
- and what were you actually experiencing?
- Were they two different things?
- PAM BARRALE: Do I know that anymore?
- I mean, I did speaking engagements
- periodically and sporadically and I think I remember--
- I mean, Emily was probably ten years old.
- She's like twenty, now.
- And I know I stopped doing speakers bureau
- because I was so tired of telling the same stories over
- and over.
- I was like, can't you people get this?
- I mean, I just didn't have the patience anymore.
- I think back then, it was all exciting and let's see,
- do I remember?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Did you get any sense
- that you were making a difference?
- PAM BARRALE: I think so.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: How?
- PAM BARRALE: I'm trying to think if I can't think
- of any specific ones where--
- I mean, I'm sure they ran the gamut of interest
- to not interested, from hostile to--
- but unfortunately, I have more memories of the later ones,
- like when I already had kids because they're
- closer in my memory.
- That's the problem.
- It's all gone.
- It's fading daily, You know, certainly, I think early
- on telling that story, telling my story or telling people--
- yes, I think there was a desire to educate people.
- And I think back then, like, in the seventies,
- we had this sense that Riverview was a little club.
- You really had community in a way
- that I don't know if it exists anymore.
- I don't know what twenty-somethings find anymore.
- But your options were limited so you went to the Riverview.
- And then Alan street was around, but the Riverview and Louise
- was behind the bar, Donna was tending.
- I mean, people knew each other, really, a lot.
- You know, there's a whole bunch of people.
- I don't know where they are now.
- And it just, again, I think our numbers were small enough
- that you really had community.
- I mean, my gosh, we lived with Whitey,
- and then we lived downstairs from Michael, or upstairs
- from Michael.
- So, you always have people around.
- I like that.
- You weren't just kind of cast off adrift somewhere.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Do you have a sense of--
- PAM BARRALE Oh, and then we did the radio show.
- I'm sorry, I just thought about Terry Hemmert.
- EVELYN BAILEY: The radio show.
- Green Thursday?
- PAM BARRALE: Green Thursday.
- Bruce Jewel and Geryllaeyn were the original people
- that did that, and they'd do it live with WCMF.
- And that was a woman there who was a DJ,
- her name is Terry Hemmert.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Carrie--
- PAM BARRALE: Terry.
- Terry Hemmert.
- Love to know what happened to her.
- She lived on Goodman Street, pretty close to the corner
- in the apartment with, like, the tower building
- with this crazy woman, Suzy.
- And turned out, she was lesbian.
- And so, Bruce and Geryllaeyn pretty much
- did Green Thursday to begin with.
- And then it started being taped and just played.
- And I think-- and I was doing it with her one night--
- and I don't know if we had--
- I think it was Liz Bell that was on the show.
- And she was telling this story about going to some steak
- house, and she named it by name--
- some steak house.
- And they told them--
- would Liz be going to a steakhouse now?
- I don't think so.
- Anyway, they told-- they said that when they gave their name
- to the hostess it was Dyke.
- So when it was time, it was like Dyke party, party of Dyke.
- Or Dykes, or something and we just
- thought this was hilarious.
- And then the station got calls and were
- pissed because this steakhouse had been mentioned and woohoo,
- you know, it was just a big deal.
- But anyway, so that was fun.
- And then Terry moved to Chicago.
- She was on the air in Chicago somewhere
- and we lost track of her.
- So there were just a lot of people that came and went.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: And the radio show,
- where were you a regular host or were you just a guest one
- time or--
- PAM BARRALE: I don't know.
- I think I popped in and out, maybe
- if Bruce wasn't available.
- It wasn't my show.
- It was the two of them.
- And I don't even remember how long it went on, and I
- don't know if anybody has any-- we didn't have recording
- devices where we taped the show and I don't know--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Somebody has them.
- PAM BARRALE: Somebody has them somewhere?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
- PAM BARRALE: You think so?
- That would be really cool.
- EVELYN BAILEY: I know.
- PAM BARRALE: Really?
- You really do know?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Bruce Jewel still has them.
- PAM BARRALE: Is he around?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yes, and I've been
- trying to get them from him.
- His concern is that they're no longer able to be read.
- And my--
- PAM BARRALE: Tape?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- PAM BARRALE: Cassette tape?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Because Bob Crystal and Bruce
- still know each other.
- And they're on tapes but are they baked?
- Have they been kept well or whatever
- and are they still readable or can they still be played?
- PAM BARRALE: Well, all you do is you put them
- in your cassette player.
- God, I've got one.
- No seriously, I've done this.
- You put them into your computer.
- I've got the software, because I did
- this for some other old tapes.
- If they're good, you can pull them onto the computer
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Oh yeah.
- It's a matter of being able to play them,
- as long as they're still playable.
- PAM BARRALE: Well gosh, you might as well find out.
- I mean, if they're not, they're not,
- but if they're sitting there.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: They probably are,
- because I've got old cassette tapes from the 1970s
- and they still play fine.
- PAM BARRALE: So yeah, just a matter of--
- come on, Bruce.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: It matters how they were stored.
- PAM BARRALE: Oh my gosh.
- PAM BARRALE: Well, I thought I had them a year and a half ago.
- PAM BARRALE: Could he just, like,
- give you one just to test it?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: That's what I was going to suggest.
- PAM BARRALE: Maybe go over to his house
- with a cassette player.
- But seriously, you can.
- Then you'd have them forever.
- Because I did this for a bunch of tapes for some radio shows.
- They weren't that old, and they had nothing
- to do with Green Thursday.
- Wow, that would be a kick in the head.
- So we were very busy.
- It was a very busy time.
- We had a lot of good times.
- But you know how your memory is.
- It's just like, these little bits.
- EVELYN BAILEY: When did you feel like you
- had come into your own?
- Like, you were comfortable, not only with who you were,
- but who you were with, who you--
- PAM BARRALE: Oh, I think I was comfortable--
- I don't know, living on Boardman Street with Whitey and--
- I should have brought my pictures--
- and Michael, and Bill, and Tim, and Marge was around.
- We just-- again, there was a nice community.
- Then, when Geryllaeyn and I split up,
- I ended up moving to Oxford Street
- and that's more when I started hanging out at the Riverview.
- And there was a whole bunch of us, Patty G. was--
- Carol Clone, and Eileen Rich and Joanie Small,
- and just a whole bunch of people.
- Did you Joanie Small?
- No apparently you didn't.
- There was a whole--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Carol Clone, I knew.
- PAM BARRALE: I have a story there but (unintelligible).
- See, then that was another chapter.
- Then we were just having fun, and everybody-- you know,
- those were the days of, you know, wait two weeks,
- everybody change partners, sort of thing.
- That was the late seventies right?
- And you know then things would settle down
- a while (unintelligible).
- EVELYN BAILEY: Were there drugs involved?
- PAM BARRALE: Not really, not for me.
- You have to turn the tape recorder off for certain parts
- because we still laugh we were together.
- We were together.
- I don't think it really matters, but turn it off anyway.
- We were at Mike's--
- (pause in recording)
- --together, which was fabulous.
- Can't have this on for this part--
- (pause in recording)
- --organized stuff.
- I don't remember.
- Again, I can remember the space at the co-op,
- and I know we did--
- like, we all took turns doing the phone thing.
- Like, you'd hang out and you'd answer
- the phone and if somebody came in, and all that sort of stuff.
- But I don't remember what happened after that.
- Jog my memory.
- What happened after?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, let me ask you about kids.
- Because you mentioned a couple times you wound up having kids.
- PAM BARRALE: Yes, yes.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Why?
- And how has it been for you, as being a lesbian
- and also having a family to take care of?
- When were your kids born?
- PAM BARRALE: Emily was born in '88,
- and Caitlin was born in '93.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So, I mean, the challenges thereof--
- PAM BARRALE: Emily was in the first crop.
- The only two kids we knew of, Peggy Felt had Ben,
- and there was Andy Collins.
- There Ben Felt and Andy Collins.
- Arlene and Marilyn's sons.
- And Peggy kind of--
- she told us-- she kind of led the way.
- And it was just, at that time when
- the andrology lab-- there's a sperm bank at U of R.
- It was pre-AIDS.
- It wasn't like-- everything has shifted,
- because by the time we trying to get pregnant Caitlin,
- everything was frozen semen and testing and retesting.
- And now, in today's world, my God,
- I guess you order semen from across the country.
- I mean, back then you didn't have those kinds of options
- because they hadn't--
- just, the technology wasn't there.
- One of our favorite stories--
- my wife, because we got married in August--
- Libby and I went to meet the woman.
- She had just opened and she's answering phones
- because women are doing these tests and they need to get--
- and she's got to coordinate the donors and the things,
- but you can't meet each other.
- And so Libby and I both worked downtown
- and typically we'd look like office-y people.
- But Libby was going out in the field that day,
- so she has on her boots and her jeans.
- And the woman says to us, which one is going to be the father?
- She answers the phone.
- We're going, we're leaving.
- This is ridiculous.
- But really, what she meant was, what are you trying to match?
- Do you want do you want your coloring
- or do you want your coloring?
- Your What kind of a donor do you want?
- Give me that information.
- I mean, I physically had our kids because I wanted to,
- and Libby didn't care, but when you wanted semen,
- you'd call in the morning and they'd set up a time,
- and you'd go to the old loop, which was on Crittendon,
- before Strong all got redone.
- And you'd have one hundred dollars in cash,
- and they'd hand you a brown paper bag, literally.
- And you'd hand them the money.
- Because they have the donor go up,
- and then they bring this thing, and they didn't want--
- and then you go to your doctor's office
- and you would sit with your brown paper bag thinking,
- they're dying, hurry, call me because these sperm are dying.
- So, those are the days of-- it was a little past turkey baster
- babies, which is what you'd hear of.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Not much past.
- PAM BARRALE: Not much past, no.
- I think when Caitlin came along, there were more women
- and we knew other lesbian women with kids.
- But then we had this older one, because there's
- almost five years between them.
- Not by intention.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, I'm going to delve little deeper into it,
- because back then it was a pretty big decision,
- pretty bold decision.
- Now in the twenty-first century it's happening all the time.
- But what made you make the choice of deciding
- to have a family and again, what were your biggest
- fears in going the route that you took to have children?
- PAM BARRALE: Well, I think, certainly we wanted kids,
- and we thought we'd be good parents.
- And did we meet with some--
- my parents were totally supportive.
- But did we meet with other people who
- didn't there such a great idea?
- Sure.
- Which, I think the result of having Emily was we
- lost touch with a lot of gay and lesbian friends.
- Because when you're a parent, gravitate to other parents,
- and if you've got a kid, you've got a baby
- and you want to be with other mommies, all the other mommies
- I knew back then--
- because Andy and Ben were too far ahead of us--
- so, most of the people we socialized with--
- I mean, I will see Michael, and I will occasionally see other
- people, but we ended up with-- and they're wonderful,
- I mean I love our friends--
- and they're all straight couples with kids
- that kind of match our kids.
- Because I remember taking Emily, when she was little,
- to somebody's house.
- They didn't have kids, oh my god.
- And you couldn't move, because it
- was this adult house with all these beautiful things
- and I had this toddler. (unintelligible).
- You know, and you just-- or you couldn't go to--
- I mean, for a while, I think we still hung out
- with some friends, and they all loved our children
- and blah, blah, blah, but it just shifts your life
- and it shifts what you talk about.
- All you talk about is your kids.
- It gets really boring.
- And you can't go on vacation to Cape anymore, sorry.
- I mean, you could, maybe, but maybe not.
- Maybe you don't want to take a baby.
- No, you don't want to do that.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: But you were also faced, probably,
- with some legalities.
- I mean, being you were the actual biological mother, put
- Libby in an interesting position,
- because had you two ever decided to split up--
- how did you handle that kind of--?
- PAM BARRALE: Well, we were--
- again, gosh I should have thought some--
- we and another couple decided to go
- for adoption, where the non-biological mom would adopt.
- And our attorney, Gregg Franklin and Karen Morris,
- was the attorney for the other couple, quietly went
- on their way and before the adoption was ever approved,
- it popped into the media that there
- was this lesbian adoption.
- And when it actually happened, and Tony Shalino,
- did the adoption.
- And then we saw in the newspaper, lesbian adoption.
- Somebody leaked it, but nobody gave--
- I mean, I have the--
- lesbian adoption.
- And it was like the news.
- It was very bizarre.
- And at six, we'll tell you about lesbians
- are being allowed to adopt children.
- And let's see, Caitlin was a baby and she was born in '93.
- So it was probably like '94.
- Emily was five.
- So we decided the other couple, again,
- we're going to have these two couples, so in my mind
- another couple.
- They afraid of people burning crosses on their front lawn.
- And we said, "We're going public.
- This is ridiculous that it's like, lesbians adopting."
- So, we ended up in print, on, the news
- and on The Empty Closet as the lesbians.
- And I still have this incredible folder
- of wonderful, probably like, twenty cards and letters
- from people we didn't even know that were so supportive.
- I mean, we got a couple of looney toons.
- We tossed those.
- It was a really good experience.
- And then we were really careful.
- We were really careful who we let into our lives.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: As would any parent be.
- PAM BARRALE: Yeah, exactly.
- Exactly.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Do you have copies
- of, like, videotapes of the news reports or anything like that?
- PAM BARRALE: Video tapes.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Newspaper articles?
- PAM BARRALE: I do have-- yeah I have the newspaper articles.
- And I know Judge Shilano got a lot of flack.
- He did.
- And in fact-- so our attorney is the husband of the attorney
- that Libby works with.
- But they still know Judge Shilano,
- and we heard when we're getting married,
- he said, if they don't have anybody to officiate,
- tell them I would do it.
- So we had a little communication with him.
- What a sweet man.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: He'd be interesting to talk to.
- PAM BARRALE: What a sweet man.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Judge Shilano?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.
- PAM BARRALE: You know and he did.
- He took a lot of flack.
- He took a hit, but he felt--
- I have documentation.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Do you remember that year?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: She said '94, maybe.
- PAM BARRALE: I can pull all that stuff out.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Because I'm sure--
- thirteen or ten, or eight--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Oh yeah, it's got to be in their archives.
- PAM BARRALE: Oh, OK.
- EVELYN BAILEY: --would have video.
- Can you share with us why--
- well, and we should probably ask him--
- why was he willing to do this?
- PAM BARRALE: Because it was the right thing to do.
- I mean, there was no reason.
- Our attorneys had to write a whole thing about--
- and again, you can see that, too--
- about why this should be allowed.
- We had to have somebody come in, a court
- appointed person come in to make sure
- that we weren't bad people.
- I think there had been something down state.
- They were-- you know, then you cite other cases.
- So there was no reason, obviously,
- in Judge Shilano's mind, there's no reason our mind,
- or our attorney's mind, why you wouldn't give the children
- the benefit of two parents, right, to avoid,
- somebody dies, these kids are in limbo, or all
- of those types of things.
- EVELYN BAILEY: How did you secure your relationship
- with Libby, though?
- I mean there were no legal--
- PAM BARRALE: No, you do your house
- and write the survivorship, you do living wills, you do--
- I mean, you do health care proxies, you do your will.
- I mean, you do as much you can do, but there was nothing--
- I mean, you do as much as you can do,
- and she works in a law office.
- Believe me, cross your Ts and dot your Is.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And by the time that
- was in process with Caitlin, it was just not really an issue.
- PAM BARRALE: Well, I mean, the adoption took place
- after Caitlin was born, so they were done together,
- with two girls.
- Emily was about five and when we went to Judge Shilano's,
- Caitlin was just a little baby.
- So, they were both done at the same time.
- EVELYN BAILEY: OK.
- PAM BARRALE: I'm not sure.
- I have to talk to Greg.
- I'm not sure how we decided to do that
- and how he connected with the other couple.
- You know, I really don't.
- Maybe Libby would remember.
- I guess they decided it was time.
- But as they say, it was really interesting to me.
- It was almost as if there were these children that
- came out of nowhere and a lesbian
- was allowed to adopt them.
- They fail in that initial, you go get the paper.
- At that point, I remember, on Friday morning, you
- walked down the driveway and pick up the paper
- and you open it and you go, what.
- Like, this has no basis in reality.
- What are you people talking about?
- And then you have the TV on.
- They're going to tell you at six why a lesbian is allowed
- to adopt children, and they're talking about are you
- and they're your own children, hello.
- So don't get me started.
- Clearly.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Actually, I wanted to get you started.
- PAM BARRALE: Just crazy.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So, I mean, after you had kids,
- it seems to me like that was really a one-eighty for you
- and your involvement with the gay community.
- I mean, you became a parent now.
- I mean, what was your involvement
- with the gay community after you have kids
- and you've got these kids to take care of.
- PAM BARRALE: Yeah, I mean, I still
- did some speaking engagements.
- That was really it.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Did you go to the Riverview any more?
- PAM BARRALE: I don't know that the Riverview existed anymore.
- When did the Riverview close?
- I'm sure Louise was long gone.
- No, the Riverview was long gone.
- There was Allen Street, or Rosie's.
- Were they one in the same?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Rosie's.
- PAM BARRALE: Rosie's.
- You know, by that time I don't think Libby was ever really
- involved in this kind of stuff.
- As I say, then, you know, you just
- have your small circle of friends.
- Right, Debbie (unintelligible), which, I mean,
- that she sort of hung out with and--
- but then, the whole baby making thing.
- You know, it's a whole big deal.
- And then this fall I started volunteering for Jess
- with the youth, with the youths because Caitlin was going off
- to college, but she came home.
- But she's still home, but that's a whole other story.
- But I like kids and I like having kids.
- So I go hang out there once a week for three hours.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: What do you think of these kids today?
- PAM BARRALE: They're just kids.
- I mean, I haven't been around long enough, you know.
- And some, like Dante--
- so Dante is more, come sit on the couches, talk to us,
- and of course he's on a different level, there.
- He's more involved and he's a sweetie.
- And you can say, oh, tell me all about your audition.
- He went to New York to audition for Juilliard.
- But we've had a couple--
- I've been around, it's got to be the timing
- for some interesting--
- I mean, we had a conversation the other day about gay folks
- having kids or not. (unintelligible).
- So, you know, we played some games.
- I think you've got to be there a while
- because they're there with their friends.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: And they need to get to know you.
- PAM BARRALE: Then they get--
- yeah, exactly.
- I mean it doesn't happen over night.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Were there issues once Emily and Caitlin were
- born and you had your other friends parents with kids
- and so forth, in terms of education or school
- or interfacing with the world in a way that challenged them
- in terms of their parents?
- In terms of--
- PAM BARRALE: Emily and Caitlin went to a small school that
- doesn't exist anymore called Our School,
- and it was Peggy Felt that led the way, because Ben
- went there.
- And it was very small and there was never any issues
- because it was a small community.
- And we went there until she was, like, well
- it only went to sixth grade, so what, was she twelve,
- and when she was done there, we started homeschooling her.
- And Caitlin went to school one more year
- and then she came home.
- So there was that community, in a school like that,
- and that the young and fit those kids--
- there was there was no issue.
- And then and this homeschooling community
- that we had ultimately landed in,
- and the people that we've spent probably the last ten
- years with it, it just jelled.
- You get a half a dozen families and these kids
- are of similar ages.
- I mean, this is our community now.
- And you know, it's just--
- we're just another family.
- That it's not-- you know, and then there's
- a couple of kids that turn out, oh, they're gay.
- OK, big deal.
- So we're pretty insulated from that.
- I think it's kind of cute sometimes.
- This one family that just will say, oh wow, you know, really--
- they just had no access to gay lesbian--
- like, oh, you know, I really didn't
- realize that it was that.
- You know, to just kind of show up and--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: When you look back
- at the past forty years of your involvement
- in the gay community, and in your contributions
- to the history of the gay community, and you know,
- how we've come to the point that we are now,
- what do you think your greatest legacy is going to be?
- What is the contribution that you, personally,
- are most proud of being involved with?
- PAM BARRALE: Again for me, it just comes down to the people.
- I mean, so I helped on the Empty Closet.
- Empty Closet would have come out with or without me,
- but it was fun while I did it.
- And did I go into the Speakers Bureau?
- Did somebody go home in a light bulb?
- I don't know.
- It just was something I did.
- It sure is fun to know, and Michael will say to me, "Oh,
- it was so nice, you know, I could come to Rochester
- and you don't know how important that was that you let
- me just stay at your house."
- And I'm like, really, well OK, you just did.
- You just-- you did.
- Or to laugh with Whitey about--
- so, it's individual people things more than I feel like--
- I mean, I contributed and helped keep things going.
- But I can't say I was the founding
- member of this or that.
- And that's OK.
- I mean, just-- it's people.
- EVELYN BAILEY: No, but it is true,
- and you may push this aside.
- It is true without your leadership on the Speakers
- Bureau, and without your contribution
- to the Empty Closet, it would not have necessarily continued
- with the strength that it had.
- The chain is only as strong as its weakest link.
- Forty years is a long time, Pam.
- PAM BARRALE: Oh, right.
- But I would say that--
- I mean, yes, forty years.
- But Emily's twenty-three, so really, you've got to,
- you know.
- It was intense.
- And it's been a lot less so, but you come back around.
- I mean, it's still--
- and you still have some great memories
- with some really fine people.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Um-hm.
- Absolutely.
- PAM BARRALE: So, yeah, I mean--
- EVELYN BAILEY: When you were going
- through this period of time in your life,
- did you have any sense at all of the impact the Empty Closet
- or the Speakers Bureau, or the Alliance
- was making in the lives of people?
- PAM BARRALE: Probably not in those moments.
- I certainly know the impact or the community we were
- and what we were bringing to each other.
- Right?
- I mean and being supportive of one another.
- I'm not sure that, certainly in my twenties,
- that like some bigger picture.
- I think I was more, at that point, again,
- just waiting to see who--
- the message I had in my head was be careful
- because somebody is going to slap you upside the head,
- because that's what the world's going to do.
- So I stuck with these fine people
- who just loved me where I was, and I loved them
- exactly where they were.
- Of course, we were out in the world living our lives, but--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: At any time, did you feel like you
- were living a double life?
- One for mainstream society and one
- for your own little community that you've
- developed for yourself?
- PAM BARRALE: From this stand--
- well, yes.
- I mean, certainly to some degree,
- because you didn't (pause) announce.
- It that awkward thing, you know.
- What do you say?
- Do you say anything?
- When the guy at the grocery store
- says something about your husband,
- you know, like, are you in the mood that day
- to correct him and go, oh no.
- Or are you just like, I don't feel like it today, sorry.
- I'm not in the mood.
- OK, sure.
- Whatever you say.
- You don't get it.
- It's that sort of thing, right.
- We all do it.
- You make a decision every day.
- Now when you have kids, it is a little different.
- Oh no, we were filling out forms, right.
- Mother, father, my kids, they're like, crazy.
- In most forms, "Hey, could you change the-- you know,
- could you say parent, parent?"
- The new birth certificates said parent, parent.
- Could we do this?
- Who wants to be the mother and father?
- You cross it out.
- So you have to be--
- you end up out and about a lot more.
- So, you know, it's one of those things that's real easy.
- It's easy for me to be invisible, too.
- You know, like people like Carol Clone, not so much.
- I mean, I remember her.
- You know, she'd go to the gas station and they'd say,
- "Yes sir, what can I--" and it would really annoy her.
- But anyone who has that more androgynous look.
- That wasn't my reality at all.
- It's real easy for people to look at me and think, you know,
- heterosexual woman.
- Husband somewhere, why not? (unintelligible).
- KEVIN INDOVINO: You know, it's so good you have her,
- her name is Libby.
- PAM BARRALE: Yeah, exactly.
- My wife.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Your parents, you seem
- to have re-established a more positive relationship
- with them.
- PAM BARRALE: Back then.
- They're both dead, deceased now.
- So they're not around anymore.
- But yes, definitely.
- And certainly once we had kids.
- And they liked Libby.
- They didn't like that first person,
- so that didn't help either, you know.
- But they loved Libby.
- So no, they were right there.
- EVELYN BAILEY: But how did how did the healing, or the change,
- come about?
- I mean, were they upset with your being a lesbian?
- Or were they just--
- PAM BARRALE: I think--
- I mean, I was twenty years old.
- And it was an awful lot to absorb.
- It was that whole immature--
- you have to-- so, as an individual,
- you have time to figure this out and adjust yourself for it.
- But no, you go home one day.
- You literally go home one day and you dump it all,
- and then you leave.
- And, you know, unfairly expect this magical, you know.
- And my poor parents, they didn't know
- what it meant to be gay anyway.
- My poor mother.
- Here's what it was to her.
- Here's what it meant to her.
- She had a cousin-- this is a great story.
- She had a cousin who had a daughter, Judy.
- And Judy announced that she was going to get married.
- She was going to marry this person who was in the military.
- And it turned out she was going to marry her cousin, who
- was having a sex change operation, back in 1970
- whatever.
- And my mother didn't have a clue.
- She didn't have a clue.
- So to her mind, like, what does this mean.
- What was I-- was I going to change my gender?
- I could have handled it better, too. (unintelligible).
- No, no, very, bad, bad.
- And the city of Rochester, so my parents lived in the suburbs.
- I mean, I was on Monroe Avenue.
- That was scary.
- I mean, everything was scary.
- I left school.
- I don't like this person anyway.
- Where did this come from, out of the blue?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Did you ever get a sense from them
- that they were they more upset that you came out as a lesbian,
- or were they more upset that you were dropping out of school?
- Or was it all just kind of--
- PAM BARRALE: I don't know that we ever ranked it.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: --a combination of everything?
- PAM BARRALE: Yeah, I don't ever think that we ranked it.
- But they didn't really know what it meant.
- And I sure didn't stick around long enough
- to try and help them explain it.
- I was like, "Well if you can't get it,
- and you can't be supportive, well,
- then I can't talk to you."
- Well that's nice.
- Literally, we really, we didn't communicate for, like, months.
- EVELYN BAILEY: But then eventually you did.
- PAM BARRALE: Yeah, I mean, I came back around.
- Because we'd always had a good relationship.
- But, you know, it was that expectation.
- Figure it out right now.
- You get no time.
- You just do it.
- And if you can't, well, I knew you couldn't--
- I knew you wouldn't anyway because the world just
- hates us.
- They're mean to us and--
- you know.
- Blah, blah, blah.
- And I think of it, I mean, I have a twenty-three-year-old
- and she never came home at age twenty to announce, "Oh, Mom."
- Caitlin's nineteen, and another year she comes home someday
- and just announces that--
- I mean, I don't know what she could announce.
- These kids have nothing--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: You'd be more prepared.
- PAM BARRALE: --left to announce.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Right, exactly.
- PAM BARRALE: Truly.
- They really don't.
- They have nothing left to announce.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- PAM BARRALE: It's all been done.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Right.
- In a sense, nowadays, you just kind of go, yeah, OK.
- PAM BARRALE: Whatever.
- Seriously.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Are you happy?
- OK.
- PAM BARRALE: Yeah.
- No I mean-- yeah.
- It's a very different world.
- EVELYN BAILEY: In hindsight, is there
- anything you would have changed about your life?
- Your gay life?
- PAM BARRALE: I don't think so.
- I mean, I think I could have been a little
- gentler with my parents.
- But you know, whatever.
- I mean, I don't know how that--
- you know.
- I was just like--
- OK.
- What else?
- What next?
- OK.
- Pretty mindless.
- EVELYN BAILEY: So, what would you
- say to a young person today who was
- going through their teens and their young adult life?
- PAM BARRALE: Well actually, yeah seriously, now I think of it,
- I hear some of these kids talk about their parents
- and the parents don't want to know anything
- and they pretend they have a--
- and it just breaks my heart, and I kind of
- want to say "Let me have coffee with them."
- We were at a birthday party for somebody,
- and this woman I know and her partner were there,
- and they talked about getting married.
- I mean, these are women that are old enough to know.
- They'd had kids, they have grandkids,
- they're old enough to know what they want to do.
- But one of them's mom just thought, just
- didn't think it was a-- blah, blah, blah.
- Well, she was at this party, too.
- She had them in town.
- They brought her, and so one's telling me,
- oh, she really doesn't like this.
- But this woman is--
- she's probably in her seventies, and she's a nice person.
- She likes me, and we're getting ready to go-- we're leaving,
- and she's like, "Next time I'm in town, I'm going to call you,
- we'll get together."
- I'm like, "That's great.
- Libby, come here."
- They wondered what the hell I was doing.
- "This is my partner Libby.
- This is our daughter.
- Our other daughter doesn't live here, but we just got married."
- I mean, I gave her, like, because it
- made me really angry that she--
- you know, but she was looking at me and thinking,
- this is just not-- because there's just a whole cross
- mix of people there.
- So Libby said, "What the hell are you doing."
- "Well, so and so's mother, she didn't like the idea,
- and I just was telling her."
- So, I kind of do.
- I want to meet some of these kids' parents,
- and I want to say, they'll be OK, it's OK, really it's OK,
- it's OK.
- It's like, I should have gay kids,
- because then it wouldn't be a big deal,
- but I didn't get those.
- Very clear, I have two heterosexual daughters.
- That's just the way it is.
- Like I care.
- They don't care, either.
- Although Caitlin sometimes wants to be a gay man because she
- really likes some of the fashion.
- You know, she loves Rufus Wainwright and Johnny Weir.
- They're so cool.
- Rufus Wainwright is a musician, and he and his partner
- have a baby.
- Do you know Leonard Cohen's daughter?
- My God.
- She just wants to go move in with them.
- And Johnny Weir is this figure skater who's--
- right.
- They got married.
- So she's just like, "Mom, why wasn't I a gay man?"
- Like, I don't know, I'm sorry.
- I can't help you.
- Next time.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Just tell her she can't handle the drama.
- PAM BARRALE: There you go.
- EVELYN BAILEY: So, what do you want most for your children?
- PAM BARRALE: Oh, I just want them to be happy.
- Whatever that means.
- Really, I just--
- Emily's living in Philadelphia.
- And she's doing the twenty-something.
- She works at the art gallery.
- As underemployed--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: One of my favorite places.
- PAM BARRALE: Isn't that a great gallery?
- So, she's in guest services with a bunch
- of other twenty-year-olds.
- She has a degree in English with that.
- She has an apartment.
- She doesn't drive.
- She loves the subways.
- So that's good.
- You know, it's good.
- Caitlin just needs to kind of figure
- out what she's doing, too.
- So, you know, I really don't care.
- I don't need to have grandchildren.
- Married, not married, I really don't care.
- Healthy, emotionally and physically,
- would be really nice.
- Healthy relationships, whatever, you know, that's all I ask.
- That's all I'm asking.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Well, thank you.
- PAM BARRALE: Thank you.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Thank you.
- PAM BARRALE: This was fun.
- I really didn't think I'd have anything to talk about,
- but would you like the adoption stuff?
- Are you around?
- I'm usually here--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, we're going
- to pull all this information together.
- PAM BARRALE: OK, let me know.
- I'm here--
- (end of recording)