Audio Interview, Pam Barrale, March 19, 2012

PAM BARRALE: '72, I had graduated from MCC.

Did you ever know Geryllaeyn Naundorf?

EVELYN BAILEY: No.

PAM BARRALE: OK, so, I mean, she was my first partner.

And I was-- I had gone to MCC, and I graduated and transferred

to Geneseo, But.

I lasted there like two months because all I was doing

was coming into the city, you know, to be--

yeah, but that's where I met Michael Robertson.

Michael Robertson was a graduate student there.

He and I tried to start a group on campus

at Geneseo, which went over in 1972 like a lead balloon.

Anyway, then I deserted him.

KEVIN INDOVINO: They're still trying

to start a group on campus at Geneseo.

PAM BARRALE: I do remember.

So I left him there.

But he'll talk about coming into the city,

then he'd come into the city and stay with us.

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

PAM BARRALE: From Geneseo in his little VW bug.

EVELYN BAILEY: But it was difficult to start

a group in Geneseo.

PAM BARRALE: Yeah.

I mean, we had a few people show up,

but the dean, I mean I got called into the dean's office.

I don't think they were sorry to see me drop out

and leave because '72.

What was going on there?

So--

KEVIN INDOVINO: Pam, let me ask you firstly--

PAM BARRALE: Sure.

KEVIN INDOVINO: What's the correct spelling

of your last name?

PAM BARRALE: B-A-R-R-A-L-E.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Barrale.

OK.

You go by Pam or Pamela?

PAM BARRALE: Pam.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Just Pam, OK.

EVELYN BAILEY: And are you still on Crosman?

PAM BARRALE: Um-hm.

Crosman Terrace.

EVELYN BAILEY: So you--

PAM BARRALE: So we went to the U of R.

EVELYN BAILEY: Where you from Rochester?

PAM BARRALE: Yeah.

Yeah, I went to East Irondequoit Schools.

I never left, and I never will.

Unless my children someday say I'm

not capable of taking care of myself

and they move me somewhere.

Yeah, I've always lived in Rochester.

EVELYN BAILEY: Did you know when you were in high school

that you were gay?

PAM BARRALE: No, but--

yeah, no.

I mean, when I look back on it, every guy I dated was gay.

I don't know what that means.

I went to Monroe Community College

and we were just all people doing our own little thing,

but then I got involved with somebody there,

and I mean over time--

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

PAM BARRALE: It became pretty evident.

So we got together, like, sort of over the summer,

but I was going to Geneseo.

And then, on a personal history basis,

I was going to her house a lot.

She lived in Rush, close enough, that she could come get me

and I could--

and her parents figured out what was going on

and said, "You can't sleep together in our house.

We don't care if you two women, a man and a woman,

you can't do that."

So we left.

But you know, I have to say, I was twenty years old,

I just went along for the ride.

Walt Delaney and Catherine Rivers

had a house on River Road, or East River Road, or something.

They were renting a house.

It was Walt, and Catherine, and somebody else--

and we went-- and Brian.

Brian Shiner.

I wish I knew what happened to him.

EVELYN BAILEY: Brian?

PAM BARRALE: Shiner.

I don't think-- if you talked to, like--

EVELYN BAILEY: Last name?

PAM BARRALE: Shiner.

S-H-I-N-E-R. but he left town years ago,

I had no idea what happened to him.

EVELYN BAILEY: OK.

PAM BARRALE: So we went there, and then the next thing--

I mean I was never at school anyway.

I was dropping out of school.

And we needed to find a place to live

and Whitey had just finished renovating the upstairs of 94

Boardman Street.

And there was an ad in The Empty Closet

and we called him and we had like a half a month's rent.

We had no money.

We had no things, but he rented us his apartment.

So, we moved.

I went home to inform my parents that I had dropped out

of school, had an apartment in the city, and was a lesbian.

I sort of have left them with that and went on my merry way.

I couldn't understand why they were so upset.

As only a twenty-- really, really, as only

a twenty-year-old could do.

Hello.

So, anyway, So then we got to live upstairs from Whitey

for several, a couple of years.

I don't know, then Whitey and Jay Baker

and Walt bought a house on Harvard Street,

and Michael was done with school.

So Michael was going to rent an apartment there,

and he went to look at it, and we went with him.

And the third floor was available, and oh sure,

why don't we move.

So we moved upstairs then from Michael.

EVELYN BAILEY: OK.

PAM BARRALE: You know, I mean, that's sort of--

so, when the U of R suggested that it really

wasn't a college group that was meeting, that it was more

of a community group and suggested that perhaps going

somewhere else was a good idea.

You know, I sort of lose track if from there the whole bull's

head place was that--

OK, so that was where the women in the men

split, except we went with the men, because--

EVELYN BAILEY: They were your friends.

PAM BARRALE: Bill, Tim, Whitey, Jay,

I mean those were my people.

I mean I also--

EVELYN BAILEY: Bill who?

PAM BARRALE: Giancursio Bill so--

EVELYN BAILEY: Tom Ferrarese's partner?

PAM BARRALE: Yes.

EVELYN BAILEY: Bill Giancursio.

Do you recall a year?

PAM BARRALE: OK, let's see.

See, that's the problem.

It's forty years.

It's forty years, or it will be forty years in the fall.

I'll be sixty in August.

So, I was twenty, so it all gets a little mushy.

We probably were let's see around--

EVELYN BAILEY: '73, then.

PAM BARRALE: We were on Boardman street,

at least for a couple of years, because Michael

must have finished up his graduate work at Geneseo

and was moving to Rochester.

So, that would have taken us from '72 to maybe '74.

But in that time period, when did--

boy, I don't know.

EVELYN BAILEY: OK.

PAM BARRALE: I mean I knew, I met,

like, Liz and Marge were together then, at U of R.

And they lived on Rona Place.

See, I knew all these places.

They were together for--

I mean, so I certainly knew, Karen Hagberg

was around back then.

But anyway, we ended up going with the guys

until things kind of came back together.

And I'm not sure--

so I worked a lot on The Empty Closet.

Tim was the editor.

When we worked, we did it in the basement of Jim's.

That's my first memory of working on The Empty Closet.

You'd go through the dance floor.

I don't know, have you been around here?

No.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Not at the original-- no.

Jim's was gone by the time I came out.

PAM BARRALE: Yeah, OK.

So, there was a dance floor and there

was a door in the back left corner,

and you go down to the basement.

And it was Bill and Tim and myself and I

don't know who else.

And then when we'd leave, we danced a little

as we danced our way out.

But those were the days when we got to the next level,

and things would go to the printer and get typed,

and then they'd come back and then you'd cut them up.

Those were fun days.

I mean, I suppose computers are fun.

And then from there, we started doing it over on University.

You know, that University and Culver Road.

We were down in there, Whitey was involved, too.

If you go down Culver Road and you turn right on University,

sort of, there's a gas station, and then there's

a brick building.

It's across, now, from some grocery store,

and, like, a couple fast food places.

Anyway, we rented--

I don't know why we left Jim's, but we rented space,

sort of, down there.

Tim was still involved.

So we were doing The Empty Closet there.

That probably was the whole-- that whole time frame

was probably '72 to '75 or something.

I don't know.

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.

PAM BARRALE: I don't--

EVELYN BAILEY: Then from there, though, it

went to the Genesee co-op.

PAM BARRALE: Yeah, then the offices

where you went down the alley.

Yes, and the men had an office and the women had an office,

but there was that shared space.

EVELYN BAILEY: And The Empty Closet was there.

PAM BARRALE: Probably.

I split up with that individual, and I

started to live at the Riverview so I

wasn't doing The Empty Closet, I was just

spending every day and night at the Riverview, which

was great fun too.

I mean it was--

do you know where the Riverview was?

KEVIN INDOVINO: I know where it was, yeah.

PAM BARRALE: Yeah.

The Riverview.

Did you go to the Riverview?

God, I would love--

if I could one night, Friday nights,

I mean, you'd just go there and everybody knew everybody.

You know, it was so much fun.

And then if you were there Saturday night,

it meant-- we'd call that date night.

So only those people would go.

Then it would be very quiet, they

would be off doing their whole dates.

EVELYN BAILEY: OK.

PAM BARRALE: And then that was-- then there was Paul's Grocery

softball.

Paul's is gone, too, but I still have my jacket.

Which is a joke, having a jacket.

And you know, that was while Carol Calogne was around,

Ben, and Patty, Patty G., and Barb Montonia.

EVELYN BAILEY: Oh yeah.

PAM BARRALE: I mean, I have--

there's pictures floating around--

I have pictures from that softball.

I mean that was--

Marilyn Spiegelman, I don't know if you knew all those folks.

EVELYN BAILEY: Patty G. Has passed away.

PAM BARRALE: Yeah, she died a few years ago.

She was--

EVELYN BAILEY: Barb Montonia

PAM BARRALE: Barb Montonia is still around.

Sharon Rosenberg was the coach.

EVELYN BAILEY: That was the softball.

PAM BARRALE: Yeah, that was the softball team.

You know, and then we were also still doing

speaking engagements.

I mean, I remember when Tim and a couple of people,

that first one back again.

I don't know, it was the early seventies.

He was teaching and they did a speaking engagement.

But then I was really involved with the speaker's bureau

but again, I couldn't even tell you the frame,

but, you know, there was a lot of that going on.

EVELYN BAILEY: Talk to us a little bit about Walt Delaney,

because Walt--

PAM BARRALE: He's passed away, too.

EVELYN BAILEY: --has passed away.

PAM BARRALE: Yeah, yeah.

Walt and Wayne Albert moved into 94

Boardman Street when we moved out.

Walt taught yoga.

Well, Whitey, was still going to visit Walt once a year.

In fact, he went to Hawaii this year.

He thought it might be the last I saw him.

(unintelligible) Randy's right before he left.

EVELYN BAILEY: But Walt wasn't a student.

PAM BARRALE: No.

Walt was-- no, gosh, how did Walt land--

Whitey would-- I don't even know how Walt--

I probably did at the time, but I don't know

how Walt landed in Rochester.

Walt was older than I was.

But I don't-- he taught yoga.

I don't know how he ended up in Rochester.

EVELYN BAILEY: But he taught yoga.

PAM BARRALE: But he was.

He taught yoga and The Empty Closet

that I can picture, his partner then, George--

there was a picture.

He did a lot of photography and he

did photography for-- if you look back probably

into the archives, like, around '74,

KEVIN INDOVINO: Walt--

PAM BARRALE: You'll see Walt Delaney

KEVIN INDOVINO: Walt did the photography?

OK.

PAM BARRALE: He did some photography.

Because I remember, there was an Empty Closet

and he had done the cover.

And Bill was involved.

There was an Empty Closet where Bill did graphic-y stuff.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yes, because in the EC,

you'll find Bill Giancurso, graphic artist or whatever.

PAM BARRALE: Yeah.

Well and a little while ago, it was really fun.

They ran that disco.

I mean, I still have my print from when he--

in fact, Emily has it because she liked it.

When Bill did that series of prints of disco,

which was us dancing, that was Jim's.

That was around the Empty Closet stuff.

And when I opened The Empty Closet that month,

and went oh, look, look my name's in there.

Because whatever the series was of those.

You know, I got one of them because I

think it was Tim and myself and maybe he put himself in there.

I don't know.

But, you know, with Bill still around.

But I don't know what he's been up to

in terms of this sort of stuff.

EVELYN BAILEY: He was more serious, Tim.

PAM BARRALE: Oh, Tim was?

Oh, in terms of The Empty Closet?

Oh, you've heard stories about Tim?

We were all like, oh yes, well if you

get Bill and the two of us, started,

yeah, Tim could get really mad at us.

EVELYN BAILEY: So tell me some stories, Pam.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, wait a minute, let's--

I kind of want to go back to the beginning

here, of 1972, because we kind of rushed

through a lot of stuff.

You came up to the U of R in 1972, right?

PAM BARRALE: Yes.

We went to-- yes.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Talk to me about first, landing on that campus

and what were you finding?

What were you emerging yourself into?

PAM BARRALE: See, I'm not--

you can't hold me to it.

This will be the memoir where they go, no.

My memory is that it was--

my memory is like, that we wandered over there

like spring, summer.

I was really interested in seeing gay people

because I really didn't know any.

And it was really-- you know-- and to see--

I mean, I literally, if you could

plug a computer in my brain, I remember

that moment of seeing Marge and Liz which

I don't know how Marge feels about that,

so I don't want to make a big deal of it,

because that was-- those two were together

and they were together a long time--

but sitting on like a big chair, and I was like, oh my God,

look at that.

And I think that was--

I think we were wandering over there before I really came out.

EVELYN BAILEY: What was going through your head

when you saw them?

PAM BARRALE: Well it was just like,

whoa, look at that, that's really cool.

I have told people that in my mind back then,

if you hadn't been sexually active,

then you couldn't label yourself as gay.

So I came at it from that perspective.

So you couldn't just identify with '72 anyway.

Hello.

It was more, you know, you had to.

So for me it was like, oh look.

Where do I fit in all of this?

It was a little cloudy at the time.

But this person I went to college

with, I was like, oh I really love you, oh OK.

Yes. twenty years old.

Oh, OK.

Oh, we can't stay here.

OK, we're leaving.

Oh, OK.

OK.

La la la, you're twenty, right.

I mean, like, OK.

I'm probably flunking out of school

anyway because I never go.

You know.

EVELYN BAILEY: So when you got in-- how did you

get involved with the GLF?

PAM BARRALE: Well, again, '72, so you had to--

again, my perception was that it was them against us.

So, if people are going to be mean to you,

you are going to shut them out first.

You know, and we all had our work boots

and there was something to be proved

in my twenty-year-old brain.

And so it was more important to get out there and start

living your life.

And what was school, anyway.

Nobody understood anyway, and it just was--

it was a really exciting time.

I mean, and the configuration of finding Michael.

I mean, Michael happened to end.

And Whitey happening to have his apartment in The Empty Closet,

I mean, who could ask for anything more?

I mean, the good times we had living upstairs from Whitey,

on the porch playing the recorders.

You know, just, did you know Diane (unintelligible)?

You probably didn't.

EVELYN BAILEY: No.

PAM BARRALE: Yeah, see.

There used to be a health food store

right on the corner of Boardman and Monroe

and she worked there.

So, it was just--

it was just a time.

It was a time.

It was-- for me, everything was new, anyway.

KEVIN INDOVINO: But what was it providing for you that you

weren't finding anywhere else?

PAM BARRALE: Well, community.

I mean, especially since at MCC, we had our little--

I was involved in theater.

We had our little theater community,

but I was done there.

So then to be in a relationship, and that first relationship

and sort of literally we didn't have anything.

You know, we had the clothes, and how

I remember going back to her parents' house, and like,

I think Whitey didn't have a refrigerator in the place

yet because it wasn't quite done.

Like, going in and taking a can of tuna,

and a jar of peanut butter in her mother's pantry,

you know, and a stick of butter, and sticking it in.

Because it was probably--

I probably dropped out of school late October, maybe

early November.

You know, sticking the butter in the window.

So then there was just the whole excitement of furnishing.

You know, going to the thrift stores or whatever.

You know, going to the yard sale and--

EVELYN BAILEY: What was Rosedale?

PAM BARRALE: Rosedale?

EVELYN BAILEY: Oh, I heard you wrong.

PAM BARRALE: Pardon me?

EVELYN BAILEY: I thought you said Rosedale.

PAM BARRALE: Oh, no.

EVELYN BAILEY: OK.

PAM BARRALE: I'm trying to remember who else was around.

I mean, like, some people I have faces

and I couldn't tell you their names anymore-- of people

just kind of hanging out.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So were you primarily

involved with the Gay Liberation Front

even when it moved off of campus,

or were you more focused on working on The Empty Closet?

Where did your energies meet?

Where were they directed mostly?

PAM BARRALE: I remember Bull's Head,

and I remember helping get that ready,

and I remember a Halloween party.

We came as Mickey and Minnie.

I mean, I again, jeez, it was forty years ago.

I probably worked more on The Empty Closet, initially.

Then I was really involved with the speakers' bureau.

So like, I coordinated the speakers bureau

for some length of time.

But again, the time frame--

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, time frame's not important.

I'm more interested in your experience of being

part of the speakers bureau.

I mean, what were you finding out

when you're going out to schools or speaking to groups

or what were you hoping to achieve

and what were you actually experiencing?

Were they two different things?

PAM BARRALE: Do I know that anymore?

I mean, I did speaking engagements

periodically and sporadically and I think I remember--

I mean, Emily was probably ten years old.

She's like twenty, now.

And I know I stopped doing speakers bureau

because I was so tired of telling the same stories over

and over.

I was like, can't you people get this?

I mean, I just didn't have the patience anymore.

I think back then, it was all exciting and let's see,

do I remember?

KEVIN INDOVINO: Did you get any sense

that you were making a difference?

PAM BARRALE: I think so.

KEVIN INDOVINO: How?

PAM BARRALE: I'm trying to think if I can't think

of any specific ones where--

I mean, I'm sure they ran the gamut of interest

to not interested, from hostile to--

but unfortunately, I have more memories of the later ones,

like when I already had kids because they're

closer in my memory.

That's the problem.

It's all gone.

It's fading daily, You know, certainly, I think early

on telling that story, telling my story or telling people--

yes, I think there was a desire to educate people.

And I think back then, like, in the seventies,

we had this sense that Riverview was a little club.

You really had community in a way

that I don't know if it exists anymore.

I don't know what twenty-somethings find anymore.

But your options were limited so you went to the Riverview.

And then Alan street was around, but the Riverview and Louise

was behind the bar, Donna was tending.

I mean, people knew each other, really, a lot.

You know, there's a whole bunch of people.

I don't know where they are now.

And it just, again, I think our numbers were small enough

that you really had community.

I mean, my gosh, we lived with Whitey,

and then we lived downstairs from Michael, or upstairs

from Michael.

So, you always have people around.

I like that.

You weren't just kind of cast off adrift somewhere.

EVELYN BAILEY: Do you have a sense of--

PAM BARRALE Oh, and then we did the radio show.

I'm sorry, I just thought about Terry Hemmert.

EVELYN BAILEY: The radio show.

Green Thursday?

PAM BARRALE: Green Thursday.

Bruce Jewel and Geryllaeyn were the original people

that did that, and they'd do it live with WCMF.

And that was a woman there who was a DJ,

her name is Terry Hemmert.

EVELYN BAILEY: Carrie--

PAM BARRALE: Terry.

Terry Hemmert.

Love to know what happened to her.

She lived on Goodman Street, pretty close to the corner

in the apartment with, like, the tower building

with this crazy woman, Suzy.

And turned out, she was lesbian.

And so, Bruce and Geryllaeyn pretty much

did Green Thursday to begin with.

And then it started being taped and just played.

And I think-- and I was doing it with her one night--

and I don't know if we had--

I think it was Liz Bell that was on the show.

And she was telling this story about going to some steak

house, and she named it by name--

some steak house.

And they told them--

would Liz be going to a steakhouse now?

I don't think so.

Anyway, they told-- they said that when they gave their name

to the hostess it was Dyke.

So when it was time, it was like Dyke party, party of Dyke.

Or Dykes, or something and we just

thought this was hilarious.

And then the station got calls and were

pissed because this steakhouse had been mentioned and woohoo,

you know, it was just a big deal.

But anyway, so that was fun.

And then Terry moved to Chicago.

She was on the air in Chicago somewhere

and we lost track of her.

So there were just a lot of people that came and went.

KEVIN INDOVINO: And the radio show,

where were you a regular host or were you just a guest one

time or--

PAM BARRALE: I don't know.

I think I popped in and out, maybe

if Bruce wasn't available.

It wasn't my show.

It was the two of them.

And I don't even remember how long it went on, and I

don't know if anybody has any-- we didn't have recording

devices where we taped the show and I don't know--

KEVIN INDOVINO: Somebody has them.

PAM BARRALE: Somebody has them somewhere?

EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.

PAM BARRALE: You think so?

That would be really cool.

EVELYN BAILEY: I know.

PAM BARRALE: Really?

You really do know?

EVELYN BAILEY: Bruce Jewel still has them.

PAM BARRALE: Is he around?

EVELYN BAILEY: Yes, and I've been

trying to get them from him.

His concern is that they're no longer able to be read.

And my--

PAM BARRALE: Tape?

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

PAM BARRALE: Cassette tape?

EVELYN BAILEY: Because Bob Crystal and Bruce

still know each other.

And they're on tapes but are they baked?

Have they been kept well or whatever

and are they still readable or can they still be played?

PAM BARRALE: Well, all you do is you put them

in your cassette player.

God, I've got one.

No seriously, I've done this.

You put them into your computer.

I've got the software, because I did

this for some other old tapes.

If they're good, you can pull them onto the computer

KEVIN INDOVINO: Oh yeah.

It's a matter of being able to play them,

as long as they're still playable.

PAM BARRALE: Well gosh, you might as well find out.

I mean, if they're not, they're not,

but if they're sitting there.

KEVIN INDOVINO: They probably are,

because I've got old cassette tapes from the 1970s

and they still play fine.

PAM BARRALE: So yeah, just a matter of--

come on, Bruce.

KEVIN INDOVINO: It matters how they were stored.

PAM BARRALE: Oh my gosh.

PAM BARRALE: Well, I thought I had them a year and a half ago.

PAM BARRALE: Could he just, like,

give you one just to test it?

KEVIN INDOVINO: That's what I was going to suggest.

PAM BARRALE: Maybe go over to his house

with a cassette player.

But seriously, you can.

Then you'd have them forever.

Because I did this for a bunch of tapes for some radio shows.

They weren't that old, and they had nothing

to do with Green Thursday.

Wow, that would be a kick in the head.

So we were very busy.

It was a very busy time.

We had a lot of good times.

But you know how your memory is.

It's just like, these little bits.

EVELYN BAILEY: When did you feel like you

had come into your own?

Like, you were comfortable, not only with who you were,

but who you were with, who you--

PAM BARRALE: Oh, I think I was comfortable--

I don't know, living on Boardman Street with Whitey and--

I should have brought my pictures--

and Michael, and Bill, and Tim, and Marge was around.

We just-- again, there was a nice community.

Then, when Geryllaeyn and I split up,

I ended up moving to Oxford Street

and that's more when I started hanging out at the Riverview.

And there was a whole bunch of us, Patty G. was--

Carol Clone, and Eileen Rich and Joanie Small,

and just a whole bunch of people.

Did you Joanie Small?

No apparently you didn't.

There was a whole--

EVELYN BAILEY: Carol Clone, I knew.

PAM BARRALE: I have a story there but (unintelligible).

See, then that was another chapter.

Then we were just having fun, and everybody-- you know,

those were the days of, you know, wait two weeks,

everybody change partners, sort of thing.

That was the late seventies right?

And you know then things would settle down

a while (unintelligible).

EVELYN BAILEY: Were there drugs involved?

PAM BARRALE: Not really, not for me.

You have to turn the tape recorder off for certain parts

because we still laugh we were together.

We were together.

I don't think it really matters, but turn it off anyway.

We were at Mike's--

(pause in recording)

--together, which was fabulous.

Can't have this on for this part--

(pause in recording)

--organized stuff.

I don't remember.

Again, I can remember the space at the co-op,

and I know we did--

like, we all took turns doing the phone thing.

Like, you'd hang out and you'd answer

the phone and if somebody came in, and all that sort of stuff.

But I don't remember what happened after that.

Jog my memory.

What happened after?

KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, let me ask you about kids.

Because you mentioned a couple times you wound up having kids.

PAM BARRALE: Yes, yes.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Why?

And how has it been for you, as being a lesbian

and also having a family to take care of?

When were your kids born?

PAM BARRALE: Emily was born in '88,

and Caitlin was born in '93.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So, I mean, the challenges thereof--

PAM BARRALE: Emily was in the first crop.

The only two kids we knew of, Peggy Felt had Ben,

and there was Andy Collins.

There Ben Felt and Andy Collins.

Arlene and Marilyn's sons.

And Peggy kind of--

she told us-- she kind of led the way.

And it was just, at that time when

the andrology lab-- there's a sperm bank at U of R.

It was pre-AIDS.

It wasn't like-- everything has shifted,

because by the time we trying to get pregnant Caitlin,

everything was frozen semen and testing and retesting.

And now, in today's world, my God,

I guess you order semen from across the country.

I mean, back then you didn't have those kinds of options

because they hadn't--

just, the technology wasn't there.

One of our favorite stories--

my wife, because we got married in August--

Libby and I went to meet the woman.

She had just opened and she's answering phones

because women are doing these tests and they need to get--

and she's got to coordinate the donors and the things,

but you can't meet each other.

And so Libby and I both worked downtown

and typically we'd look like office-y people.

But Libby was going out in the field that day,

so she has on her boots and her jeans.

And the woman says to us, which one is going to be the father?

She answers the phone.

We're going, we're leaving.

This is ridiculous.

But really, what she meant was, what are you trying to match?

Do you want do you want your coloring

or do you want your coloring?

Your What kind of a donor do you want?

Give me that information.

I mean, I physically had our kids because I wanted to,

and Libby didn't care, but when you wanted semen,

you'd call in the morning and they'd set up a time,

and you'd go to the old loop, which was on Crittendon,

before Strong all got redone.

And you'd have one hundred dollars in cash,

and they'd hand you a brown paper bag, literally.

And you'd hand them the money.

Because they have the donor go up,

and then they bring this thing, and they didn't want--

and then you go to your doctor's office

and you would sit with your brown paper bag thinking,

they're dying, hurry, call me because these sperm are dying.

So, those are the days of-- it was a little past turkey baster

babies, which is what you'd hear of.

EVELYN BAILEY: Not much past.

PAM BARRALE: Not much past, no.

I think when Caitlin came along, there were more women

and we knew other lesbian women with kids.

But then we had this older one, because there's

almost five years between them.

Not by intention.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, I'm going to delve little deeper into it,

because back then it was a pretty big decision,

pretty bold decision.

Now in the twenty-first century it's happening all the time.

But what made you make the choice of deciding

to have a family and again, what were your biggest

fears in going the route that you took to have children?

PAM BARRALE: Well, I think, certainly we wanted kids,

and we thought we'd be good parents.

And did we meet with some--

my parents were totally supportive.

But did we meet with other people who

didn't there such a great idea?

Sure.

Which, I think the result of having Emily was we

lost touch with a lot of gay and lesbian friends.

Because when you're a parent, gravitate to other parents,

and if you've got a kid, you've got a baby

and you want to be with other mommies, all the other mommies

I knew back then--

because Andy and Ben were too far ahead of us--

so, most of the people we socialized with--

I mean, I will see Michael, and I will occasionally see other

people, but we ended up with-- and they're wonderful,

I mean I love our friends--

and they're all straight couples with kids

that kind of match our kids.

Because I remember taking Emily, when she was little,

to somebody's house.

They didn't have kids, oh my god.

And you couldn't move, because it

was this adult house with all these beautiful things

and I had this toddler. (unintelligible).

You know, and you just-- or you couldn't go to--

I mean, for a while, I think we still hung out

with some friends, and they all loved our children

and blah, blah, blah, but it just shifts your life

and it shifts what you talk about.

All you talk about is your kids.

It gets really boring.

And you can't go on vacation to Cape anymore, sorry.

I mean, you could, maybe, but maybe not.

Maybe you don't want to take a baby.

No, you don't want to do that.

KEVIN INDOVINO: But you were also faced, probably,

with some legalities.

I mean, being you were the actual biological mother, put

Libby in an interesting position,

because had you two ever decided to split up--

how did you handle that kind of--?

PAM BARRALE: Well, we were--

again, gosh I should have thought some--

we and another couple decided to go

for adoption, where the non-biological mom would adopt.

And our attorney, Gregg Franklin and Karen Morris,

was the attorney for the other couple, quietly went

on their way and before the adoption was ever approved,

it popped into the media that there

was this lesbian adoption.

And when it actually happened, and Tony Shalino,

did the adoption.

And then we saw in the newspaper, lesbian adoption.

Somebody leaked it, but nobody gave--

I mean, I have the--

lesbian adoption.

And it was like the news.

It was very bizarre.

And at six, we'll tell you about lesbians

are being allowed to adopt children.

And let's see, Caitlin was a baby and she was born in '93.

So it was probably like '94.

Emily was five.

So we decided the other couple, again,

we're going to have these two couples, so in my mind

another couple.

They afraid of people burning crosses on their front lawn.

And we said, "We're going public.

This is ridiculous that it's like, lesbians adopting."

So, we ended up in print, on, the news

and on The Empty Closet as the lesbians.

And I still have this incredible folder

of wonderful, probably like, twenty cards and letters

from people we didn't even know that were so supportive.

I mean, we got a couple of looney toons.

We tossed those.

It was a really good experience.

And then we were really careful.

We were really careful who we let into our lives.

KEVIN INDOVINO: As would any parent be.

PAM BARRALE: Yeah, exactly.

Exactly.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Do you have copies

of, like, videotapes of the news reports or anything like that?

PAM BARRALE: Video tapes.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Newspaper articles?

PAM BARRALE: I do have-- yeah I have the newspaper articles.

And I know Judge Shilano got a lot of flack.

He did.

And in fact-- so our attorney is the husband of the attorney

that Libby works with.

But they still know Judge Shilano,

and we heard when we're getting married,

he said, if they don't have anybody to officiate,

tell them I would do it.

So we had a little communication with him.

What a sweet man.

KEVIN INDOVINO: He'd be interesting to talk to.

PAM BARRALE: What a sweet man.

EVELYN BAILEY: Judge Shilano?

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.

PAM BARRALE: You know and he did.

He took a lot of flack.

He took a hit, but he felt--

I have documentation.

EVELYN BAILEY: Do you remember that year?

KEVIN INDOVINO: She said '94, maybe.

PAM BARRALE: I can pull all that stuff out.

EVELYN BAILEY: Because I'm sure--

thirteen or ten, or eight--

KEVIN INDOVINO: Oh yeah, it's got to be in their archives.