Audio Interview, Pam Barrale, March 19, 2012

  • PAM BARRALE: '72, I had graduated from MCC.
  • Did you ever know Geryllaeyn Naundorf?
  • EVELYN BAILEY: No.
  • PAM BARRALE: OK, so, I mean, she was my first partner.
  • And I was-- I had gone to MCC, and I graduated and transferred
  • to Geneseo, But.
  • I lasted there like two months because all I was doing
  • was coming into the city, you know, to be--
  • yeah, but that's where I met Michael Robertson.
  • Michael Robertson was a graduate student there.
  • He and I tried to start a group on campus
  • at Geneseo, which went over in 1972 like a lead balloon.
  • Anyway, then I deserted him.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: They're still trying
  • to start a group on campus at Geneseo.
  • PAM BARRALE: I do remember.
  • So I left him there.
  • But he'll talk about coming into the city,
  • then he'd come into the city and stay with us.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
  • PAM BARRALE: From Geneseo in his little VW bug.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: But it was difficult to start
  • a group in Geneseo.
  • PAM BARRALE: Yeah.
  • I mean, we had a few people show up,
  • but the dean, I mean I got called into the dean's office.
  • I don't think they were sorry to see me drop out
  • and leave because '72.
  • What was going on there?
  • So--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Pam, let me ask you firstly--
  • PAM BARRALE: Sure.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: What's the correct spelling
  • of your last name?
  • PAM BARRALE: B-A-R-R-A-L-E.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Barrale.
  • OK.
  • You go by Pam or Pamela?
  • PAM BARRALE: Pam.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Just Pam, OK.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And are you still on Crosman?
  • PAM BARRALE: Um-hm.
  • Crosman Terrace.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: So you--
  • PAM BARRALE: So we went to the U of R.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Where you from Rochester?
  • PAM BARRALE: Yeah.
  • Yeah, I went to East Irondequoit Schools.
  • I never left, and I never will.
  • Unless my children someday say I'm
  • not capable of taking care of myself
  • and they move me somewhere.
  • Yeah, I've always lived in Rochester.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Did you know when you were in high school
  • that you were gay?
  • PAM BARRALE: No, but--
  • yeah, no.
  • I mean, when I look back on it, every guy I dated was gay.
  • I don't know what that means.
  • I went to Monroe Community College
  • and we were just all people doing our own little thing,
  • but then I got involved with somebody there,
  • and I mean over time--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
  • PAM BARRALE: It became pretty evident.
  • So we got together, like, sort of over the summer,
  • but I was going to Geneseo.
  • And then, on a personal history basis,
  • I was going to her house a lot.
  • She lived in Rush, close enough, that she could come get me
  • and I could--
  • and her parents figured out what was going on
  • and said, "You can't sleep together in our house.
  • We don't care if you two women, a man and a woman,
  • you can't do that."
  • So we left.
  • But you know, I have to say, I was twenty years old,
  • I just went along for the ride.
  • Walt Delaney and Catherine Rivers
  • had a house on River Road, or East River Road, or something.
  • They were renting a house.
  • It was Walt, and Catherine, and somebody else--
  • and we went-- and Brian.
  • Brian Shiner.
  • I wish I knew what happened to him.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Brian?
  • PAM BARRALE: Shiner.
  • I don't think-- if you talked to, like--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Last name?
  • PAM BARRALE: Shiner.
  • S-H-I-N-E-R. but he left town years ago,
  • I had no idea what happened to him.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: OK.
  • PAM BARRALE: So we went there, and then the next thing--
  • I mean I was never at school anyway.
  • I was dropping out of school.
  • And we needed to find a place to live
  • and Whitey had just finished renovating the upstairs of 94
  • Boardman Street.
  • And there was an ad in The Empty Closet
  • and we called him and we had like a half a month's rent.
  • We had no money.
  • We had no things, but he rented us his apartment.
  • So, we moved.
  • I went home to inform my parents that I had dropped out
  • of school, had an apartment in the city, and was a lesbian.
  • I sort of have left them with that and went on my merry way.
  • I couldn't understand why they were so upset.
  • As only a twenty-- really, really, as only
  • a twenty-year-old could do.
  • Hello.
  • So, anyway, So then we got to live upstairs from Whitey
  • for several, a couple of years.
  • I don't know, then Whitey and Jay Baker
  • and Walt bought a house on Harvard Street,
  • and Michael was done with school.
  • So Michael was going to rent an apartment there,
  • and he went to look at it, and we went with him.
  • And the third floor was available, and oh sure,
  • why don't we move.
  • So we moved upstairs then from Michael.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: OK.
  • PAM BARRALE: You know, I mean, that's sort of--
  • so, when the U of R suggested that it really
  • wasn't a college group that was meeting, that it was more
  • of a community group and suggested that perhaps going
  • somewhere else was a good idea.
  • You know, I sort of lose track if from there the whole bull's
  • head place was that--
  • OK, so that was where the women in the men
  • split, except we went with the men, because--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: They were your friends.
  • PAM BARRALE: Bill, Tim, Whitey, Jay,
  • I mean those were my people.
  • I mean I also--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Bill who?
  • PAM BARRALE: Giancursio Bill so--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Tom Ferrarese's partner?
  • PAM BARRALE: Yes.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Bill Giancursio.
  • Do you recall a year?
  • PAM BARRALE: OK, let's see.
  • See, that's the problem.
  • It's forty years.
  • It's forty years, or it will be forty years in the fall.
  • I'll be sixty in August.
  • So, I was twenty, so it all gets a little mushy.
  • We probably were let's see around--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: '73, then.
  • PAM BARRALE: We were on Boardman street,
  • at least for a couple of years, because Michael
  • must have finished up his graduate work at Geneseo
  • and was moving to Rochester.
  • So, that would have taken us from '72 to maybe '74.
  • But in that time period, when did--
  • boy, I don't know.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: OK.
  • PAM BARRALE: I mean I knew, I met,
  • like, Liz and Marge were together then, at U of R.
  • And they lived on Rona Place.
  • See, I knew all these places.
  • They were together for--
  • I mean, so I certainly knew, Karen Hagberg
  • was around back then.
  • But anyway, we ended up going with the guys
  • until things kind of came back together.
  • And I'm not sure--
  • so I worked a lot on The Empty Closet.
  • Tim was the editor.
  • When we worked, we did it in the basement of Jim's.
  • That's my first memory of working on The Empty Closet.
  • You'd go through the dance floor.
  • I don't know, have you been around here?
  • No.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Not at the original-- no.
  • Jim's was gone by the time I came out.
  • PAM BARRALE: Yeah, OK.
  • So, there was a dance floor and there
  • was a door in the back left corner,
  • and you go down to the basement.
  • And it was Bill and Tim and myself and I
  • don't know who else.
  • And then when we'd leave, we danced a little
  • as we danced our way out.
  • But those were the days when we got to the next level,
  • and things would go to the printer and get typed,
  • and then they'd come back and then you'd cut them up.
  • Those were fun days.
  • I mean, I suppose computers are fun.
  • And then from there, we started doing it over on University.
  • You know, that University and Culver Road.
  • We were down in there, Whitey was involved, too.
  • If you go down Culver Road and you turn right on University,
  • sort of, there's a gas station, and then there's
  • a brick building.
  • It's across, now, from some grocery store,
  • and, like, a couple fast food places.
  • Anyway, we rented--
  • I don't know why we left Jim's, but we rented space,
  • sort of, down there.
  • Tim was still involved.
  • So we were doing The Empty Closet there.
  • That probably was the whole-- that whole time frame
  • was probably '72 to '75 or something.
  • I don't know.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
  • PAM BARRALE: I don't--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Then from there, though, it
  • went to the Genesee co-op.
  • PAM BARRALE: Yeah, then the offices
  • where you went down the alley.
  • Yes, and the men had an office and the women had an office,
  • but there was that shared space.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And The Empty Closet was there.
  • PAM BARRALE: Probably.
  • I split up with that individual, and I
  • started to live at the Riverview so I
  • wasn't doing The Empty Closet, I was just
  • spending every day and night at the Riverview, which
  • was great fun too.
  • I mean it was--
  • do you know where the Riverview was?
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I know where it was, yeah.
  • PAM BARRALE: Yeah.
  • The Riverview.
  • Did you go to the Riverview?
  • God, I would love--
  • if I could one night, Friday nights,
  • I mean, you'd just go there and everybody knew everybody.
  • You know, it was so much fun.
  • And then if you were there Saturday night,
  • it meant-- we'd call that date night.
  • So only those people would go.
  • Then it would be very quiet, they
  • would be off doing their whole dates.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: OK.
  • PAM BARRALE: And then that was-- then there was Paul's Grocery
  • softball.
  • Paul's is gone, too, but I still have my jacket.
  • Which is a joke, having a jacket.
  • And you know, that was while Carol Calogne was around,
  • Ben, and Patty, Patty G., and Barb Montonia.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Oh yeah.
  • PAM BARRALE: I mean, I have--
  • there's pictures floating around--
  • I have pictures from that softball.
  • I mean that was--
  • Marilyn Spiegelman, I don't know if you knew all those folks.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Patty G. Has passed away.
  • PAM BARRALE: Yeah, she died a few years ago.
  • She was--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Barb Montonia
  • PAM BARRALE: Barb Montonia is still around.
  • Sharon Rosenberg was the coach.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: That was the softball.
  • PAM BARRALE: Yeah, that was the softball team.
  • You know, and then we were also still doing
  • speaking engagements.
  • I mean, I remember when Tim and a couple of people,
  • that first one back again.
  • I don't know, it was the early seventies.
  • He was teaching and they did a speaking engagement.
  • But then I was really involved with the speaker's bureau
  • but again, I couldn't even tell you the frame,
  • but, you know, there was a lot of that going on.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Talk to us a little bit about Walt Delaney,
  • because Walt--
  • PAM BARRALE: He's passed away, too.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: --has passed away.
  • PAM BARRALE: Yeah, yeah.
  • Walt and Wayne Albert moved into 94
  • Boardman Street when we moved out.
  • Walt taught yoga.
  • Well, Whitey, was still going to visit Walt once a year.
  • In fact, he went to Hawaii this year.
  • He thought it might be the last I saw him.
  • (unintelligible) Randy's right before he left.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: But Walt wasn't a student.
  • PAM BARRALE: No.
  • Walt was-- no, gosh, how did Walt land--
  • Whitey would-- I don't even know how Walt--
  • I probably did at the time, but I don't know
  • how Walt landed in Rochester.
  • Walt was older than I was.
  • But I don't-- he taught yoga.
  • I don't know how he ended up in Rochester.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: But he taught yoga.
  • PAM BARRALE: But he was.
  • He taught yoga and The Empty Closet
  • that I can picture, his partner then, George--
  • there was a picture.
  • He did a lot of photography and he
  • did photography for-- if you look back probably
  • into the archives, like, around '74,
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Walt--
  • PAM BARRALE: You'll see Walt Delaney
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Walt did the photography?
  • OK.
  • PAM BARRALE: He did some photography.
  • Because I remember, there was an Empty Closet
  • and he had done the cover.
  • And Bill was involved.
  • There was an Empty Closet where Bill did graphic-y stuff.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yes, because in the EC,
  • you'll find Bill Giancurso, graphic artist or whatever.
  • PAM BARRALE: Yeah.
  • Well and a little while ago, it was really fun.
  • They ran that disco.
  • I mean, I still have my print from when he--
  • in fact, Emily has it because she liked it.
  • When Bill did that series of prints of disco,
  • which was us dancing, that was Jim's.
  • That was around the Empty Closet stuff.
  • And when I opened The Empty Closet that month,
  • and went oh, look, look my name's in there.
  • Because whatever the series was of those.
  • You know, I got one of them because I
  • think it was Tim and myself and maybe he put himself in there.
  • I don't know.
  • But, you know, with Bill still around.
  • But I don't know what he's been up to
  • in terms of this sort of stuff.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: He was more serious, Tim.
  • PAM BARRALE: Oh, Tim was?
  • Oh, in terms of The Empty Closet?
  • Oh, you've heard stories about Tim?
  • We were all like, oh yes, well if you
  • get Bill and the two of us, started,
  • yeah, Tim could get really mad at us.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: So tell me some stories, Pam.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, wait a minute, let's--
  • I kind of want to go back to the beginning
  • here, of 1972, because we kind of rushed
  • through a lot of stuff.
  • You came up to the U of R in 1972, right?
  • PAM BARRALE: Yes.
  • We went to-- yes.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Talk to me about first, landing on that campus
  • and what were you finding?
  • What were you emerging yourself into?
  • PAM BARRALE: See, I'm not--
  • you can't hold me to it.
  • This will be the memoir where they go, no.
  • My memory is that it was--
  • my memory is like, that we wandered over there
  • like spring, summer.
  • I was really interested in seeing gay people
  • because I really didn't know any.
  • And it was really-- you know-- and to see--
  • I mean, I literally, if you could
  • plug a computer in my brain, I remember
  • that moment of seeing Marge and Liz which
  • I don't know how Marge feels about that,
  • so I don't want to make a big deal of it,
  • because that was-- those two were together
  • and they were together a long time--
  • but sitting on like a big chair, and I was like, oh my God,
  • look at that.
  • And I think that was--
  • I think we were wandering over there before I really came out.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: What was going through your head
  • when you saw them?
  • PAM BARRALE: Well it was just like,
  • whoa, look at that, that's really cool.
  • I have told people that in my mind back then,
  • if you hadn't been sexually active,
  • then you couldn't label yourself as gay.
  • So I came at it from that perspective.
  • So you couldn't just identify with '72 anyway.
  • Hello.
  • It was more, you know, you had to.
  • So for me it was like, oh look.
  • Where do I fit in all of this?
  • It was a little cloudy at the time.
  • But this person I went to college
  • with, I was like, oh I really love you, oh OK.
  • Yes. twenty years old.
  • Oh, OK.
  • Oh, we can't stay here.
  • OK, we're leaving.
  • Oh, OK.
  • OK.
  • La la la, you're twenty, right.
  • I mean, like, OK.
  • I'm probably flunking out of school
  • anyway because I never go.
  • You know.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: So when you got in-- how did you
  • get involved with the GLF?
  • PAM BARRALE: Well, again, '72, so you had to--
  • again, my perception was that it was them against us.
  • So, if people are going to be mean to you,
  • you are going to shut them out first.
  • You know, and we all had our work boots
  • and there was something to be proved
  • in my twenty-year-old brain.
  • And so it was more important to get out there and start
  • living your life.
  • And what was school, anyway.
  • Nobody understood anyway, and it just was--
  • it was a really exciting time.
  • I mean, and the configuration of finding Michael.
  • I mean, Michael happened to end.
  • And Whitey happening to have his apartment in The Empty Closet,
  • I mean, who could ask for anything more?
  • I mean, the good times we had living upstairs from Whitey,
  • on the porch playing the recorders.
  • You know, just, did you know Diane (unintelligible)?
  • You probably didn't.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: No.
  • PAM BARRALE: Yeah, see.
  • There used to be a health food store
  • right on the corner of Boardman and Monroe
  • and she worked there.
  • So, it was just--
  • it was just a time.
  • It was a time.
  • It was-- for me, everything was new, anyway.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: But what was it providing for you that you
  • weren't finding anywhere else?
  • PAM BARRALE: Well, community.
  • I mean, especially since at MCC, we had our little--
  • I was involved in theater.
  • We had our little theater community,
  • but I was done there.
  • So then to be in a relationship, and that first relationship
  • and sort of literally we didn't have anything.
  • You know, we had the clothes, and how
  • I remember going back to her parents' house, and like,
  • I think Whitey didn't have a refrigerator in the place
  • yet because it wasn't quite done.
  • Like, going in and taking a can of tuna,
  • and a jar of peanut butter in her mother's pantry,
  • you know, and a stick of butter, and sticking it in.
  • Because it was probably--
  • I probably dropped out of school late October, maybe
  • early November.
  • You know, sticking the butter in the window.
  • So then there was just the whole excitement of furnishing.
  • You know, going to the thrift stores or whatever.
  • You know, going to the yard sale and--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: What was Rosedale?
  • PAM BARRALE: Rosedale?
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Oh, I heard you wrong.
  • PAM BARRALE: Pardon me?
  • EVELYN BAILEY: I thought you said Rosedale.
  • PAM BARRALE: Oh, no.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: OK.
  • PAM BARRALE: I'm trying to remember who else was around.
  • I mean, like, some people I have faces
  • and I couldn't tell you their names anymore-- of people
  • just kind of hanging out.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So were you primarily
  • involved with the Gay Liberation Front
  • even when it moved off of campus,
  • or were you more focused on working on The Empty Closet?
  • Where did your energies meet?
  • Where were they directed mostly?
  • PAM BARRALE: I remember Bull's Head,
  • and I remember helping get that ready,
  • and I remember a Halloween party.
  • We came as Mickey and Minnie.
  • I mean, I again, jeez, it was forty years ago.
  • I probably worked more on The Empty Closet, initially.
  • Then I was really involved with the speakers' bureau.
  • So like, I coordinated the speakers bureau
  • for some length of time.
  • But again, the time frame--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, time frame's not important.
  • I'm more interested in your experience of being
  • part of the speakers bureau.
  • I mean, what were you finding out
  • when you're going out to schools or speaking to groups
  • or what were you hoping to achieve
  • and what were you actually experiencing?
  • Were they two different things?
  • PAM BARRALE: Do I know that anymore?
  • I mean, I did speaking engagements
  • periodically and sporadically and I think I remember--
  • I mean, Emily was probably ten years old.
  • She's like twenty, now.
  • And I know I stopped doing speakers bureau
  • because I was so tired of telling the same stories over
  • and over.
  • I was like, can't you people get this?
  • I mean, I just didn't have the patience anymore.
  • I think back then, it was all exciting and let's see,
  • do I remember?
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Did you get any sense
  • that you were making a difference?
  • PAM BARRALE: I think so.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: How?
  • PAM BARRALE: I'm trying to think if I can't think
  • of any specific ones where--
  • I mean, I'm sure they ran the gamut of interest
  • to not interested, from hostile to--
  • but unfortunately, I have more memories of the later ones,
  • like when I already had kids because they're
  • closer in my memory.
  • That's the problem.
  • It's all gone.
  • It's fading daily, You know, certainly, I think early
  • on telling that story, telling my story or telling people--
  • yes, I think there was a desire to educate people.
  • And I think back then, like, in the seventies,
  • we had this sense that Riverview was a little club.
  • You really had community in a way
  • that I don't know if it exists anymore.
  • I don't know what twenty-somethings find anymore.
  • But your options were limited so you went to the Riverview.
  • And then Alan street was around, but the Riverview and Louise
  • was behind the bar, Donna was tending.
  • I mean, people knew each other, really, a lot.
  • You know, there's a whole bunch of people.
  • I don't know where they are now.
  • And it just, again, I think our numbers were small enough
  • that you really had community.
  • I mean, my gosh, we lived with Whitey,
  • and then we lived downstairs from Michael, or upstairs
  • from Michael.
  • So, you always have people around.
  • I like that.
  • You weren't just kind of cast off adrift somewhere.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Do you have a sense of--
  • PAM BARRALE Oh, and then we did the radio show.
  • I'm sorry, I just thought about Terry Hemmert.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: The radio show.
  • Green Thursday?
  • PAM BARRALE: Green Thursday.
  • Bruce Jewel and Geryllaeyn were the original people
  • that did that, and they'd do it live with WCMF.
  • And that was a woman there who was a DJ,
  • her name is Terry Hemmert.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Carrie--
  • PAM BARRALE: Terry.
  • Terry Hemmert.
  • Love to know what happened to her.
  • She lived on Goodman Street, pretty close to the corner
  • in the apartment with, like, the tower building
  • with this crazy woman, Suzy.
  • And turned out, she was lesbian.
  • And so, Bruce and Geryllaeyn pretty much
  • did Green Thursday to begin with.
  • And then it started being taped and just played.
  • And I think-- and I was doing it with her one night--
  • and I don't know if we had--
  • I think it was Liz Bell that was on the show.
  • And she was telling this story about going to some steak
  • house, and she named it by name--
  • some steak house.
  • And they told them--
  • would Liz be going to a steakhouse now?
  • I don't think so.
  • Anyway, they told-- they said that when they gave their name
  • to the hostess it was Dyke.
  • So when it was time, it was like Dyke party, party of Dyke.
  • Or Dykes, or something and we just
  • thought this was hilarious.
  • And then the station got calls and were
  • pissed because this steakhouse had been mentioned and woohoo,
  • you know, it was just a big deal.
  • But anyway, so that was fun.
  • And then Terry moved to Chicago.
  • She was on the air in Chicago somewhere
  • and we lost track of her.
  • So there were just a lot of people that came and went.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: And the radio show,
  • where were you a regular host or were you just a guest one
  • time or--
  • PAM BARRALE: I don't know.
  • I think I popped in and out, maybe
  • if Bruce wasn't available.
  • It wasn't my show.
  • It was the two of them.
  • And I don't even remember how long it went on, and I
  • don't know if anybody has any-- we didn't have recording
  • devices where we taped the show and I don't know--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Somebody has them.
  • PAM BARRALE: Somebody has them somewhere?
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
  • PAM BARRALE: You think so?
  • That would be really cool.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: I know.
  • PAM BARRALE: Really?
  • You really do know?
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Bruce Jewel still has them.
  • PAM BARRALE: Is he around?
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yes, and I've been
  • trying to get them from him.
  • His concern is that they're no longer able to be read.
  • And my--
  • PAM BARRALE: Tape?
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
  • PAM BARRALE: Cassette tape?
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Because Bob Crystal and Bruce
  • still know each other.
  • And they're on tapes but are they baked?
  • Have they been kept well or whatever
  • and are they still readable or can they still be played?
  • PAM BARRALE: Well, all you do is you put them
  • in your cassette player.
  • God, I've got one.
  • No seriously, I've done this.
  • You put them into your computer.
  • I've got the software, because I did
  • this for some other old tapes.
  • If they're good, you can pull them onto the computer
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Oh yeah.
  • It's a matter of being able to play them,
  • as long as they're still playable.
  • PAM BARRALE: Well gosh, you might as well find out.
  • I mean, if they're not, they're not,
  • but if they're sitting there.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: They probably are,
  • because I've got old cassette tapes from the 1970s
  • and they still play fine.
  • PAM BARRALE: So yeah, just a matter of--
  • come on, Bruce.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: It matters how they were stored.
  • PAM BARRALE: Oh my gosh.
  • PAM BARRALE: Well, I thought I had them a year and a half ago.
  • PAM BARRALE: Could he just, like,
  • give you one just to test it?
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: That's what I was going to suggest.
  • PAM BARRALE: Maybe go over to his house
  • with a cassette player.
  • But seriously, you can.
  • Then you'd have them forever.
  • Because I did this for a bunch of tapes for some radio shows.
  • They weren't that old, and they had nothing
  • to do with Green Thursday.
  • Wow, that would be a kick in the head.
  • So we were very busy.
  • It was a very busy time.
  • We had a lot of good times.
  • But you know how your memory is.
  • It's just like, these little bits.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: When did you feel like you
  • had come into your own?
  • Like, you were comfortable, not only with who you were,
  • but who you were with, who you--
  • PAM BARRALE: Oh, I think I was comfortable--
  • I don't know, living on Boardman Street with Whitey and--
  • I should have brought my pictures--
  • and Michael, and Bill, and Tim, and Marge was around.
  • We just-- again, there was a nice community.
  • Then, when Geryllaeyn and I split up,
  • I ended up moving to Oxford Street
  • and that's more when I started hanging out at the Riverview.
  • And there was a whole bunch of us, Patty G. was--
  • Carol Clone, and Eileen Rich and Joanie Small,
  • and just a whole bunch of people.
  • Did you Joanie Small?
  • No apparently you didn't.
  • There was a whole--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Carol Clone, I knew.
  • PAM BARRALE: I have a story there but (unintelligible).
  • See, then that was another chapter.
  • Then we were just having fun, and everybody-- you know,
  • those were the days of, you know, wait two weeks,
  • everybody change partners, sort of thing.
  • That was the late seventies right?
  • And you know then things would settle down
  • a while (unintelligible).
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Were there drugs involved?
  • PAM BARRALE: Not really, not for me.
  • You have to turn the tape recorder off for certain parts
  • because we still laugh we were together.
  • We were together.
  • I don't think it really matters, but turn it off anyway.
  • We were at Mike's--
  • (pause in recording)
  • --together, which was fabulous.
  • Can't have this on for this part--
  • (pause in recording)
  • --organized stuff.
  • I don't remember.
  • Again, I can remember the space at the co-op,
  • and I know we did--
  • like, we all took turns doing the phone thing.
  • Like, you'd hang out and you'd answer
  • the phone and if somebody came in, and all that sort of stuff.
  • But I don't remember what happened after that.
  • Jog my memory.
  • What happened after?
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, let me ask you about kids.
  • Because you mentioned a couple times you wound up having kids.
  • PAM BARRALE: Yes, yes.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Why?
  • And how has it been for you, as being a lesbian
  • and also having a family to take care of?
  • When were your kids born?
  • PAM BARRALE: Emily was born in '88,
  • and Caitlin was born in '93.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So, I mean, the challenges thereof--
  • PAM BARRALE: Emily was in the first crop.
  • The only two kids we knew of, Peggy Felt had Ben,
  • and there was Andy Collins.
  • There Ben Felt and Andy Collins.
  • Arlene and Marilyn's sons.
  • And Peggy kind of--
  • she told us-- she kind of led the way.
  • And it was just, at that time when
  • the andrology lab-- there's a sperm bank at U of R.
  • It was pre-AIDS.
  • It wasn't like-- everything has shifted,
  • because by the time we trying to get pregnant Caitlin,
  • everything was frozen semen and testing and retesting.
  • And now, in today's world, my God,
  • I guess you order semen from across the country.
  • I mean, back then you didn't have those kinds of options
  • because they hadn't--
  • just, the technology wasn't there.
  • One of our favorite stories--
  • my wife, because we got married in August--
  • Libby and I went to meet the woman.
  • She had just opened and she's answering phones
  • because women are doing these tests and they need to get--
  • and she's got to coordinate the donors and the things,
  • but you can't meet each other.
  • And so Libby and I both worked downtown
  • and typically we'd look like office-y people.
  • But Libby was going out in the field that day,
  • so she has on her boots and her jeans.
  • And the woman says to us, which one is going to be the father?
  • She answers the phone.
  • We're going, we're leaving.
  • This is ridiculous.
  • But really, what she meant was, what are you trying to match?
  • Do you want do you want your coloring
  • or do you want your coloring?
  • Your What kind of a donor do you want?
  • Give me that information.
  • I mean, I physically had our kids because I wanted to,
  • and Libby didn't care, but when you wanted semen,
  • you'd call in the morning and they'd set up a time,
  • and you'd go to the old loop, which was on Crittendon,
  • before Strong all got redone.
  • And you'd have one hundred dollars in cash,
  • and they'd hand you a brown paper bag, literally.
  • And you'd hand them the money.
  • Because they have the donor go up,
  • and then they bring this thing, and they didn't want--
  • and then you go to your doctor's office
  • and you would sit with your brown paper bag thinking,
  • they're dying, hurry, call me because these sperm are dying.
  • So, those are the days of-- it was a little past turkey baster
  • babies, which is what you'd hear of.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Not much past.
  • PAM BARRALE: Not much past, no.
  • I think when Caitlin came along, there were more women
  • and we knew other lesbian women with kids.
  • But then we had this older one, because there's
  • almost five years between them.
  • Not by intention.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, I'm going to delve little deeper into it,
  • because back then it was a pretty big decision,
  • pretty bold decision.
  • Now in the twenty-first century it's happening all the time.
  • But what made you make the choice of deciding
  • to have a family and again, what were your biggest
  • fears in going the route that you took to have children?
  • PAM BARRALE: Well, I think, certainly we wanted kids,
  • and we thought we'd be good parents.
  • And did we meet with some--
  • my parents were totally supportive.
  • But did we meet with other people who
  • didn't there such a great idea?
  • Sure.
  • Which, I think the result of having Emily was we
  • lost touch with a lot of gay and lesbian friends.
  • Because when you're a parent, gravitate to other parents,
  • and if you've got a kid, you've got a baby
  • and you want to be with other mommies, all the other mommies
  • I knew back then--
  • because Andy and Ben were too far ahead of us--
  • so, most of the people we socialized with--
  • I mean, I will see Michael, and I will occasionally see other
  • people, but we ended up with-- and they're wonderful,
  • I mean I love our friends--
  • and they're all straight couples with kids
  • that kind of match our kids.
  • Because I remember taking Emily, when she was little,
  • to somebody's house.
  • They didn't have kids, oh my god.
  • And you couldn't move, because it
  • was this adult house with all these beautiful things
  • and I had this toddler. (unintelligible).
  • You know, and you just-- or you couldn't go to--
  • I mean, for a while, I think we still hung out
  • with some friends, and they all loved our children
  • and blah, blah, blah, but it just shifts your life
  • and it shifts what you talk about.
  • All you talk about is your kids.
  • It gets really boring.
  • And you can't go on vacation to Cape anymore, sorry.
  • I mean, you could, maybe, but maybe not.
  • Maybe you don't want to take a baby.
  • No, you don't want to do that.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: But you were also faced, probably,
  • with some legalities.
  • I mean, being you were the actual biological mother, put
  • Libby in an interesting position,
  • because had you two ever decided to split up--
  • how did you handle that kind of--?
  • PAM BARRALE: Well, we were--
  • again, gosh I should have thought some--
  • we and another couple decided to go
  • for adoption, where the non-biological mom would adopt.
  • And our attorney, Gregg Franklin and Karen Morris,
  • was the attorney for the other couple, quietly went
  • on their way and before the adoption was ever approved,
  • it popped into the media that there
  • was this lesbian adoption.
  • And when it actually happened, and Tony Shalino,
  • did the adoption.
  • And then we saw in the newspaper, lesbian adoption.
  • Somebody leaked it, but nobody gave--
  • I mean, I have the--
  • lesbian adoption.
  • And it was like the news.
  • It was very bizarre.
  • And at six, we'll tell you about lesbians
  • are being allowed to adopt children.
  • And let's see, Caitlin was a baby and she was born in '93.
  • So it was probably like '94.
  • Emily was five.
  • So we decided the other couple, again,
  • we're going to have these two couples, so in my mind
  • another couple.
  • They afraid of people burning crosses on their front lawn.
  • And we said, "We're going public.
  • This is ridiculous that it's like, lesbians adopting."
  • So, we ended up in print, on, the news
  • and on The Empty Closet as the lesbians.
  • And I still have this incredible folder
  • of wonderful, probably like, twenty cards and letters
  • from people we didn't even know that were so supportive.
  • I mean, we got a couple of looney toons.
  • We tossed those.
  • It was a really good experience.
  • And then we were really careful.
  • We were really careful who we let into our lives.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: As would any parent be.
  • PAM BARRALE: Yeah, exactly.
  • Exactly.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Do you have copies
  • of, like, videotapes of the news reports or anything like that?
  • PAM BARRALE: Video tapes.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Newspaper articles?
  • PAM BARRALE: I do have-- yeah I have the newspaper articles.
  • And I know Judge Shilano got a lot of flack.
  • He did.
  • And in fact-- so our attorney is the husband of the attorney
  • that Libby works with.
  • But they still know Judge Shilano,
  • and we heard when we're getting married,
  • he said, if they don't have anybody to officiate,
  • tell them I would do it.
  • So we had a little communication with him.
  • What a sweet man.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: He'd be interesting to talk to.
  • PAM BARRALE: What a sweet man.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Judge Shilano?
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.
  • PAM BARRALE: You know and he did.
  • He took a lot of flack.
  • He took a hit, but he felt--
  • I have documentation.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Do you remember that year?
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: She said '94, maybe.
  • PAM BARRALE: I can pull all that stuff out.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Because I'm sure--
  • thirteen or ten, or eight--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Oh yeah, it's got to be in their archives.
  • PAM BARRALE: Oh, OK.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: --would have video.
  • Can you share with us why--
  • well, and we should probably ask him--
  • why was he willing to do this?
  • PAM BARRALE: Because it was the right thing to do.
  • I mean, there was no reason.
  • Our attorneys had to write a whole thing about--
  • and again, you can see that, too--
  • about why this should be allowed.
  • We had to have somebody come in, a court
  • appointed person come in to make sure
  • that we weren't bad people.
  • I think there had been something down state.
  • They were-- you know, then you cite other cases.
  • So there was no reason, obviously,
  • in Judge Shilano's mind, there's no reason our mind,
  • or our attorney's mind, why you wouldn't give the children
  • the benefit of two parents, right, to avoid,
  • somebody dies, these kids are in limbo, or all
  • of those types of things.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: How did you secure your relationship
  • with Libby, though?
  • I mean there were no legal--
  • PAM BARRALE: No, you do your house
  • and write the survivorship, you do living wills, you do--
  • I mean, you do health care proxies, you do your will.
  • I mean, you do as much you can do, but there was nothing--
  • I mean, you do as much as you can do,
  • and she works in a law office.
  • Believe me, cross your Ts and dot your Is.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And by the time that
  • was in process with Caitlin, it was just not really an issue.
  • PAM BARRALE: Well, I mean, the adoption took place
  • after Caitlin was born, so they were done together,
  • with two girls.
  • Emily was about five and when we went to Judge Shilano's,
  • Caitlin was just a little baby.
  • So, they were both done at the same time.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: OK.
  • PAM BARRALE: I'm not sure.
  • I have to talk to Greg.
  • I'm not sure how we decided to do that
  • and how he connected with the other couple.
  • You know, I really don't.
  • Maybe Libby would remember.
  • I guess they decided it was time.
  • But as they say, it was really interesting to me.
  • It was almost as if there were these children that
  • came out of nowhere and a lesbian
  • was allowed to adopt them.
  • They fail in that initial, you go get the paper.
  • At that point, I remember, on Friday morning, you
  • walked down the driveway and pick up the paper
  • and you open it and you go, what.
  • Like, this has no basis in reality.
  • What are you people talking about?
  • And then you have the TV on.
  • They're going to tell you at six why a lesbian is allowed
  • to adopt children, and they're talking about are you
  • and they're your own children, hello.
  • So don't get me started.
  • Clearly.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Actually, I wanted to get you started.
  • PAM BARRALE: Just crazy.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So, I mean, after you had kids,
  • it seems to me like that was really a one-eighty for you
  • and your involvement with the gay community.
  • I mean, you became a parent now.
  • I mean, what was your involvement
  • with the gay community after you have kids
  • and you've got these kids to take care of.
  • PAM BARRALE: Yeah, I mean, I still
  • did some speaking engagements.
  • That was really it.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Did you go to the Riverview any more?
  • PAM BARRALE: I don't know that the Riverview existed anymore.
  • When did the Riverview close?
  • I'm sure Louise was long gone.
  • No, the Riverview was long gone.
  • There was Allen Street, or Rosie's.
  • Were they one in the same?
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Rosie's.
  • PAM BARRALE: Rosie's.
  • You know, by that time I don't think Libby was ever really
  • involved in this kind of stuff.
  • As I say, then, you know, you just
  • have your small circle of friends.
  • Right, Debbie (unintelligible), which, I mean,
  • that she sort of hung out with and--
  • but then, the whole baby making thing.
  • You know, it's a whole big deal.
  • And then this fall I started volunteering for Jess
  • with the youth, with the youths because Caitlin was going off
  • to college, but she came home.
  • But she's still home, but that's a whole other story.
  • But I like kids and I like having kids.
  • So I go hang out there once a week for three hours.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: What do you think of these kids today?
  • PAM BARRALE: They're just kids.
  • I mean, I haven't been around long enough, you know.
  • And some, like Dante--
  • so Dante is more, come sit on the couches, talk to us,
  • and of course he's on a different level, there.
  • He's more involved and he's a sweetie.
  • And you can say, oh, tell me all about your audition.
  • He went to New York to audition for Juilliard.
  • But we've had a couple--
  • I've been around, it's got to be the timing
  • for some interesting--
  • I mean, we had a conversation the other day about gay folks
  • having kids or not. (unintelligible).
  • So, you know, we played some games.
  • I think you've got to be there a while
  • because they're there with their friends.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: And they need to get to know you.
  • PAM BARRALE: Then they get--
  • yeah, exactly.
  • I mean it doesn't happen over night.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Were there issues once Emily and Caitlin were
  • born and you had your other friends parents with kids
  • and so forth, in terms of education or school
  • or interfacing with the world in a way that challenged them
  • in terms of their parents?
  • In terms of--
  • PAM BARRALE: Emily and Caitlin went to a small school that
  • doesn't exist anymore called Our School,
  • and it was Peggy Felt that led the way, because Ben
  • went there.
  • And it was very small and there was never any issues
  • because it was a small community.
  • And we went there until she was, like, well
  • it only went to sixth grade, so what, was she twelve,
  • and when she was done there, we started homeschooling her.
  • And Caitlin went to school one more year
  • and then she came home.
  • So there was that community, in a school like that,
  • and that the young and fit those kids--
  • there was there was no issue.
  • And then and this homeschooling community
  • that we had ultimately landed in,
  • and the people that we've spent probably the last ten
  • years with it, it just jelled.
  • You get a half a dozen families and these kids
  • are of similar ages.
  • I mean, this is our community now.
  • And you know, it's just--
  • we're just another family.
  • That it's not-- you know, and then there's
  • a couple of kids that turn out, oh, they're gay.
  • OK, big deal.
  • So we're pretty insulated from that.
  • I think it's kind of cute sometimes.
  • This one family that just will say, oh wow, you know, really--
  • they just had no access to gay lesbian--
  • like, oh, you know, I really didn't
  • realize that it was that.
  • You know, to just kind of show up and--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: When you look back
  • at the past forty years of your involvement
  • in the gay community, and in your contributions
  • to the history of the gay community, and you know,
  • how we've come to the point that we are now,
  • what do you think your greatest legacy is going to be?
  • What is the contribution that you, personally,
  • are most proud of being involved with?
  • PAM BARRALE: Again for me, it just comes down to the people.
  • I mean, so I helped on the Empty Closet.
  • Empty Closet would have come out with or without me,
  • but it was fun while I did it.
  • And did I go into the Speakers Bureau?
  • Did somebody go home in a light bulb?
  • I don't know.
  • It just was something I did.
  • It sure is fun to know, and Michael will say to me, "Oh,
  • it was so nice, you know, I could come to Rochester
  • and you don't know how important that was that you let
  • me just stay at your house."
  • And I'm like, really, well OK, you just did.
  • You just-- you did.
  • Or to laugh with Whitey about--
  • so, it's individual people things more than I feel like--
  • I mean, I contributed and helped keep things going.
  • But I can't say I was the founding
  • member of this or that.
  • And that's OK.
  • I mean, just-- it's people.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: No, but it is true,
  • and you may push this aside.
  • It is true without your leadership on the Speakers
  • Bureau, and without your contribution
  • to the Empty Closet, it would not have necessarily continued
  • with the strength that it had.
  • The chain is only as strong as its weakest link.
  • Forty years is a long time, Pam.
  • PAM BARRALE: Oh, right.
  • But I would say that--
  • I mean, yes, forty years.
  • But Emily's twenty-three, so really, you've got to,
  • you know.
  • It was intense.
  • And it's been a lot less so, but you come back around.
  • I mean, it's still--
  • and you still have some great memories
  • with some really fine people.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Um-hm.
  • Absolutely.
  • PAM BARRALE: So, yeah, I mean--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: When you were going
  • through this period of time in your life,
  • did you have any sense at all of the impact the Empty Closet
  • or the Speakers Bureau, or the Alliance
  • was making in the lives of people?
  • PAM BARRALE: Probably not in those moments.
  • I certainly know the impact or the community we were
  • and what we were bringing to each other.
  • Right?
  • I mean and being supportive of one another.
  • I'm not sure that, certainly in my twenties,
  • that like some bigger picture.
  • I think I was more, at that point, again,
  • just waiting to see who--
  • the message I had in my head was be careful
  • because somebody is going to slap you upside the head,
  • because that's what the world's going to do.
  • So I stuck with these fine people
  • who just loved me where I was, and I loved them
  • exactly where they were.
  • Of course, we were out in the world living our lives, but--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: At any time, did you feel like you
  • were living a double life?
  • One for mainstream society and one
  • for your own little community that you've
  • developed for yourself?
  • PAM BARRALE: From this stand--
  • well, yes.
  • I mean, certainly to some degree,
  • because you didn't (pause) announce.
  • It that awkward thing, you know.
  • What do you say?
  • Do you say anything?
  • When the guy at the grocery store
  • says something about your husband,
  • you know, like, are you in the mood that day
  • to correct him and go, oh no.
  • Or are you just like, I don't feel like it today, sorry.
  • I'm not in the mood.
  • OK, sure.
  • Whatever you say.
  • You don't get it.
  • It's that sort of thing, right.
  • We all do it.
  • You make a decision every day.
  • Now when you have kids, it is a little different.
  • Oh no, we were filling out forms, right.
  • Mother, father, my kids, they're like, crazy.
  • In most forms, "Hey, could you change the-- you know,
  • could you say parent, parent?"
  • The new birth certificates said parent, parent.
  • Could we do this?
  • Who wants to be the mother and father?
  • You cross it out.
  • So you have to be--
  • you end up out and about a lot more.
  • So, you know, it's one of those things that's real easy.
  • It's easy for me to be invisible, too.
  • You know, like people like Carol Clone, not so much.
  • I mean, I remember her.
  • You know, she'd go to the gas station and they'd say,
  • "Yes sir, what can I--" and it would really annoy her.
  • But anyone who has that more androgynous look.
  • That wasn't my reality at all.
  • It's real easy for people to look at me and think, you know,
  • heterosexual woman.
  • Husband somewhere, why not? (unintelligible).
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: You know, it's so good you have her,
  • her name is Libby.
  • PAM BARRALE: Yeah, exactly.
  • My wife.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Your parents, you seem
  • to have re-established a more positive relationship
  • with them.
  • PAM BARRALE: Back then.
  • They're both dead, deceased now.
  • So they're not around anymore.
  • But yes, definitely.
  • And certainly once we had kids.
  • And they liked Libby.
  • They didn't like that first person,
  • so that didn't help either, you know.
  • But they loved Libby.
  • So no, they were right there.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: But how did how did the healing, or the change,
  • come about?
  • I mean, were they upset with your being a lesbian?
  • Or were they just--
  • PAM BARRALE: I think--
  • I mean, I was twenty years old.
  • And it was an awful lot to absorb.
  • It was that whole immature--
  • you have to-- so, as an individual,
  • you have time to figure this out and adjust yourself for it.
  • But no, you go home one day.
  • You literally go home one day and you dump it all,
  • and then you leave.
  • And, you know, unfairly expect this magical, you know.
  • And my poor parents, they didn't know
  • what it meant to be gay anyway.
  • My poor mother.
  • Here's what it was to her.
  • Here's what it meant to her.
  • She had a cousin-- this is a great story.
  • She had a cousin who had a daughter, Judy.
  • And Judy announced that she was going to get married.
  • She was going to marry this person who was in the military.
  • And it turned out she was going to marry her cousin, who
  • was having a sex change operation, back in 1970
  • whatever.
  • And my mother didn't have a clue.
  • She didn't have a clue.
  • So to her mind, like, what does this mean.
  • What was I-- was I going to change my gender?
  • I could have handled it better, too. (unintelligible).
  • No, no, very, bad, bad.
  • And the city of Rochester, so my parents lived in the suburbs.
  • I mean, I was on Monroe Avenue.
  • That was scary.
  • I mean, everything was scary.
  • I left school.
  • I don't like this person anyway.
  • Where did this come from, out of the blue?
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Did you ever get a sense from them
  • that they were they more upset that you came out as a lesbian,
  • or were they more upset that you were dropping out of school?
  • Or was it all just kind of--
  • PAM BARRALE: I don't know that we ever ranked it.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: --a combination of everything?
  • PAM BARRALE: Yeah, I don't ever think that we ranked it.
  • But they didn't really know what it meant.
  • And I sure didn't stick around long enough
  • to try and help them explain it.
  • I was like, "Well if you can't get it,
  • and you can't be supportive, well,
  • then I can't talk to you."
  • Well that's nice.
  • Literally, we really, we didn't communicate for, like, months.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: But then eventually you did.
  • PAM BARRALE: Yeah, I mean, I came back around.
  • Because we'd always had a good relationship.
  • But, you know, it was that expectation.
  • Figure it out right now.
  • You get no time.
  • You just do it.
  • And if you can't, well, I knew you couldn't--
  • I knew you wouldn't anyway because the world just
  • hates us.
  • They're mean to us and--
  • you know.
  • Blah, blah, blah.
  • And I think of it, I mean, I have a twenty-three-year-old
  • and she never came home at age twenty to announce, "Oh, Mom."
  • Caitlin's nineteen, and another year she comes home someday
  • and just announces that--
  • I mean, I don't know what she could announce.
  • These kids have nothing--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: You'd be more prepared.
  • PAM BARRALE: --left to announce.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Right, exactly.
  • PAM BARRALE: Truly.
  • They really don't.
  • They have nothing left to announce.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
  • PAM BARRALE: It's all been done.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Right.
  • In a sense, nowadays, you just kind of go, yeah, OK.
  • PAM BARRALE: Whatever.
  • Seriously.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Are you happy?
  • OK.
  • PAM BARRALE: Yeah.
  • No I mean-- yeah.
  • It's a very different world.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: In hindsight, is there
  • anything you would have changed about your life?
  • Your gay life?
  • PAM BARRALE: I don't think so.
  • I mean, I think I could have been a little
  • gentler with my parents.
  • But you know, whatever.
  • I mean, I don't know how that--
  • you know.
  • I was just like--
  • OK.
  • What else?
  • What next?
  • OK.
  • Pretty mindless.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: So, what would you
  • say to a young person today who was
  • going through their teens and their young adult life?
  • PAM BARRALE: Well actually, yeah seriously, now I think of it,
  • I hear some of these kids talk about their parents
  • and the parents don't want to know anything
  • and they pretend they have a--
  • and it just breaks my heart, and I kind of
  • want to say "Let me have coffee with them."
  • We were at a birthday party for somebody,
  • and this woman I know and her partner were there,
  • and they talked about getting married.
  • I mean, these are women that are old enough to know.
  • They'd had kids, they have grandkids,
  • they're old enough to know what they want to do.
  • But one of them's mom just thought, just
  • didn't think it was a-- blah, blah, blah.
  • Well, she was at this party, too.
  • She had them in town.
  • They brought her, and so one's telling me,
  • oh, she really doesn't like this.
  • But this woman is--
  • she's probably in her seventies, and she's a nice person.
  • She likes me, and we're getting ready to go-- we're leaving,
  • and she's like, "Next time I'm in town, I'm going to call you,
  • we'll get together."
  • I'm like, "That's great.
  • Libby, come here."
  • They wondered what the hell I was doing.
  • "This is my partner Libby.
  • This is our daughter.
  • Our other daughter doesn't live here, but we just got married."
  • I mean, I gave her, like, because it
  • made me really angry that she--
  • you know, but she was looking at me and thinking,
  • this is just not-- because there's just a whole cross
  • mix of people there.
  • So Libby said, "What the hell are you doing."
  • "Well, so and so's mother, she didn't like the idea,
  • and I just was telling her."
  • So, I kind of do.
  • I want to meet some of these kids' parents,
  • and I want to say, they'll be OK, it's OK, really it's OK,
  • it's OK.
  • It's like, I should have gay kids,
  • because then it wouldn't be a big deal,
  • but I didn't get those.
  • Very clear, I have two heterosexual daughters.
  • That's just the way it is.
  • Like I care.
  • They don't care, either.
  • Although Caitlin sometimes wants to be a gay man because she
  • really likes some of the fashion.
  • You know, she loves Rufus Wainwright and Johnny Weir.
  • They're so cool.
  • Rufus Wainwright is a musician, and he and his partner
  • have a baby.
  • Do you know Leonard Cohen's daughter?
  • My God.
  • She just wants to go move in with them.
  • And Johnny Weir is this figure skater who's--
  • right.
  • They got married.
  • So she's just like, "Mom, why wasn't I a gay man?"
  • Like, I don't know, I'm sorry.
  • I can't help you.
  • Next time.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Just tell her she can't handle the drama.
  • PAM BARRALE: There you go.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: So, what do you want most for your children?
  • PAM BARRALE: Oh, I just want them to be happy.
  • Whatever that means.
  • Really, I just--
  • Emily's living in Philadelphia.
  • And she's doing the twenty-something.
  • She works at the art gallery.
  • As underemployed--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: One of my favorite places.
  • PAM BARRALE: Isn't that a great gallery?
  • So, she's in guest services with a bunch
  • of other twenty-year-olds.
  • She has a degree in English with that.
  • She has an apartment.
  • She doesn't drive.
  • She loves the subways.
  • So that's good.
  • You know, it's good.
  • Caitlin just needs to kind of figure
  • out what she's doing, too.
  • So, you know, I really don't care.
  • I don't need to have grandchildren.
  • Married, not married, I really don't care.
  • Healthy, emotionally and physically,
  • would be really nice.
  • Healthy relationships, whatever, you know, that's all I ask.
  • That's all I'm asking.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Well, thank you.
  • PAM BARRALE: Thank you.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Thank you.
  • PAM BARRALE: This was fun.
  • I really didn't think I'd have anything to talk about,
  • but would you like the adoption stuff?
  • Are you around?
  • I'm usually here--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, we're going
  • to pull all this information together.
  • PAM BARRALE: OK, let me know.
  • I'm here--
  • (end of recording)