Audio Interview, Pam Pepper, September 29, 2012

EVELYN BAILEY: Today is September twenty-ninth,

and I am sitting with Pam Pepper at Barnes & Noble.

And Pam was a woman who grew up in the sixties

and seventies in Rochester.

Born in Rochester, and lived basically in Rochester

all her life, with the exception of a few excursions

to the west coast and a few other places.

But I wanted to ask Pam when she was--

when you were coming out, when you

were beginning to recognize that you were lesbian,

were there resources?

Were there things in Rochester that would help

you do that, or--

PAM PEPPER: Well, there not--

there may have been, but I did not know about them.

I doubt that there were many.

I would think-- when I was in high school there--

people talked about a bar called the Blue Chip.

EVELYN BAILEY: OK.

PAM PEPPER: And that was a very mysterious thing to all of us.

And we heard that there--

you know, that gay people went there.

And so I thought a lot about that in high school.

And when I graduated, I found out where it was--

I don't know how--

and I did go there.

And it was a very scary experience,

because there was a bouncer at the door.

And they weren't going to let you

in unless you knew somebody.

Who do you know in here?

You know, it was all very scary.

They were very protective.

It was run by a guy named Louis and his girlfriend Jeannie

behind the bar.

And it had-- well, sometimes straight people

would come in to look at the freaks, basically.

So it was kind of a scary place.

EVELYN BAILEY: Obviously you were allowed in.

PAM PEPPER: I did get in, right.

But the thing was, Louis, the owner,

would try to hit on the gay girls,

and ask if they wanted to do threesomes

with him and his wife.

It was real sleazy, real sleazy stuff.

Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: And was that, like, the only bar?

PAM PEPPER: No.

Well, it was as far as I knew at that time.

And then-- and I don't know what over the years--

how many years this took or what,

but the bars that I hung around with after that--

because that bar ended up closing down and there

was an expressway all around it and all this stuff.

EVELYN BAILEY: Urban renewal through here.

PAM PEPPER: Yeah.

Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: Was it near Ellen Street?

PAM PEPPER: Yes.

Yes.

Yeah.

So the bars that I hung around were the Pink Panther.

EVELYN BAILEY: Where was that?

Do you remember?

Downtown?

PAM PEPPER: Well, kind of, yeah.

You know what, I don't remember exactly where it was.

I couldn't even tell you.

There was the Pink Panther.

There was the Riverview.

There was the Silver Fox, and there was the Club 212.

Those were the different places.

And in this time the police were raiding the bars when

it was around election time.

And they would raid the bars so that they could say, "We're

keeping the city cleaned up.

We're getting rid of those gay people."

Blah, blah, blah.

And when they would come in, we would all jump out the windows,

go out the back doors.

We would get out of there.

EVELYN BAILEY: Was it particularly

around the time of election that the bars were raided.

PAM PEPPER: That's what people said, that it

was around election time.

It was a really hard, tough time.

I mean, when you came out you had to feel

like you were really tough.

That you might need to beat someone up,

or they might need to beat you up.

You know what I mean?

And you would play the role.

Like I played the role.

I had this long blonde hair and white lipstick.

And I would wear, like, black leather jackets

and black boots.

And I wanted to be tough, so I'd have a cigarette hanging out

of my mouth.

You know, and I'd walk in.

And then of course everybody turns around

to see who's walking in.

So you're, like, strutting your stuff.

You're walking in, you're smoking your cigarette.

Really felt like you had to be tough.

You had to be somebody you weren't.

Well, and a lot of them were just tough, but--

EVELYN BAILEY: Were there--

the other bars beside the Blue Chip, did they have bouncers?

PAM PEPPER: Yes.

EVELYN BAILEY: Did they--

was it entrance only by being known,

or, I mean, it sounds to me like the Blue Chip really,

really only let people in who they knew.

Who--

PAM PEPPER: That's right.

EVELYN BAILEY: --they could, in a sense, vouch for.

PAM PEPPER: Yes.

EVELYN BAILEY: Were the other bars like that?

PAM PEPPER: No.

Then as time went on, the other bars had bouncers in the bars,

but it was more relaxed and anybody could come in.

But you always had to know there was protection there,

because people drank themselves silly.

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

PAM PEPPER: Me included.

I drank myself just practically to death,

because it was the thing you did.

You sat there all night and you drank

and hope somebody neat would walk in, you know.

EVELYN BAILEY: Did you dance?

I mean was--

PAM PEPPER: Yes.

EVELYN BAILEY: Did the Blue Chip have a dance floor?

PAM PEPPER: Yes, the Blue Chip definitely had a dance floor.

EVELYN BAILEY: And was it mixed, or was it--

I mean--

PAM PEPPER: Yes.

EVELYN BAILEY: As well as same--

PAM PEPPER: There were same gay guys, right.

EVELYN BAILEY: Same sex couples?

PAM PEPPER: Yes.

EVELYN BAILEY: Dancing.

PAM PEPPER: Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: Do you recall what--

were there rules or laws at that time that--

I think same sex dancing was prohibited.

You weren't supposed to.

PAM PEPPER: Oh, I don't know.

I do not know.

EVELYN BAILEY: OK.

PAM PEPPER: Yeah, I know in Louis' there were the very--

oh, there was a woman that was all dressed in men's clothes.

I can still see her, because it shocked me.

With a pipe, you know, smoking a pipe,

looking like a man sitting around in the corner.

You know, and I'll never--

I'll just never forget it, because it's

the first time I saw it.

EVELYN BAILEY: A transgender or a drag queen?

PAM PEPPER: Yeah.

See, and I met the first woman that I actually

had a relationship with--

who came in with her cousin and husband--

and had a five year relationship with a married woman

with three kids.

That's where I started out.

That was like low as you can go.

A lot of fun.

EVELYN BAILEY: That's not low.

PAM PEPPER: A lot of fun.

EVELYN BAILEY: That's not really low.

PAM PEPPER: Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: It's safe.

PAM PEPPER: Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: But it's not low.

So in the other bars, it was much more relaxed in terms of--

PAM PEPPER: Who can come and go?

EVELYN BAILEY: Anyone could walk in?

PAM PEPPER: Right.

EVELYN BAILEY: And there was--

was there dancing in most of them?

PAM PEPPER: Most of them there were.

And some of them were known more for dancing than others.

Like, there was one called Jim's.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.

PAM PEPPER: OK, and that was mostly gay boys.

And they had music and dancing, and it

was considered the fun bar.

You wanted to have fun, you went there.

If you were seriously looking for woman, you didn't go there.

And people that went there were called fag hags, because they

were hanging around with the boys.

OK, if you hung around with a boy--

any man at all--

you were either called a fag hag or a bisexual,

which was the worst thing anyone could call you.

True.

Yeah.

And yeah--

EVELYN BAILEY: So the Riverview the--

I forget the other names that you mentioned.

PAM PEPPER: Pink Panther.

EVELYN BAILEY: The Pink Panther, the Riverview, the Silver--

PAM PEPPER: The Silver Fox.

And then--

EVELYN BAILEY: Some of these I have heard of.

PAM PEPPER: Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: The Pink Panther, no, and the Silver Fox, no.

PAM PEPPER: The Silver Fox ended up

being taken over by the guy that ran the Blue Chip.

EVELYN BAILEY: OK.

PAM PEPPER: Silver Fox was downtown.

EVELYN BAILEY: Right, Louis.

PAM PEPPER: Right.

EVELYN BAILEY: OK.

The Riverview, I have, I mean--

PAM PEPPER: Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: --obviously heard of.

PAM PEPPER: Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: But the Silver Fox

was not run the same way as the Blue Chip.

PAM PEPPER: No.

EVELYN BAILEY: By that time, things had kind of relaxed.

PAM PEPPER: Right.

EVELYN BAILEY: Were you ever in a bar that was raided?

PAM PEPPER: Yes.

EVELYN BAILEY: And what was there--

PAM PEPPER: We just all ran.

We just all ran.

And they would actually throw people in the paddy wagon

and drive away with them.

Seriously.

And that bar was the 212.

And the 212, did you know the Club 212?

EVELYN BAILEY: No.

PAM PEPPER: The Club 212 everyone

was set up so that when you walked in the front bar

was for straight people, and the back room was for gay people.

So if you hung around the front bar

and some guy was hitting on you, that's

your problem, because you're in the wrong place.

EVELYN BAILEY: OK.

PAM PEPPER: And they hit on you constantly.

You know, you went up to get a drink and they're like,

all you need is a good you-know-what

and you'll be fine.

You know, that type of thing.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

PAM PEPPER: So we basically hung around in the back and shot

pool and danced or whatever.

In that bar, I was there when someone was shot once.

Yeah, it was a guy that was fooling around

with a woman who was bisexual.

Horrible, awful to all of us, right?

And he-- she was out with someone else or whatever.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

PAM PEPPER: Anyways, a woman came in and shot him

in the stomach.

And we all-- out the windows, out the doors.

We were out of there.

EVELYN BAILEY: Wow.

PAM PEPPER: And the police came along.

And he was all right.

But, you know, those were tough times, very tough.

Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: Now, did--

when the police raided, was there any signal

given to the people inside the bar that this was--

I mean, I've heard that, like, at Jim's--

because there was a window on the street--

you could see the police coming down in front of the window.

And someone would press a button and a red light

would go on or a pink light or something,

and that was the indication that you were

to stop dancing and assume--

PAM PEPPER: Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: --heterosexual--

PAM PEPPER: Yeah.

OK.

EVELYN BAILEY: --positions or places.

And that the jukebox was turned off so

that there was no indication that there

was anything going on.

Did that happen at the--

PAM PEPPER: You know, all of that might have happened,

but I was in such a drunken stupor

every night that I was out at the bar

that I was totally clueless of any of that stuff.

My only indication would have been someone saying,

the police are coming, and we'd all run.

So I don't know.

EVELYN BAILEY: Were you ever arrested,

or thrown in the paddy wagon.

PAM PEPPER: I was arrested once, but not because of a raid.

Because I was totally drunk out of my mind.

Some guys had brought in some White Lightening and daring

people to drink it.

So I drank it, and I went to the Riverview

to knock on the window, because my girlfriend was in there,

and the window broke.

So I took off and left, and then I was arrested at work.

EVELYN BAILEY: Oh, wow.

Wow.

It must have been embarrassing.

PAM PEPPER: No.

I didn't have enough sense to be embarrassed.

EVELYN BAILEY: Oh, wow.

So you were a real--

a real Riverview dyke.

PAM PEPPER: Oh, yeah.

But I didn't look--

I mean I didn't dress up like a man.

I wasn't trying to look like a man.

I was just looking like I thought--

I wanted to look semi-straight, because I had to work.

So where I was working, I would not

have been hired looking dyke-y.

EVELYN BAILEY: And after you were arrested,

did they let you continue working there?

PAM PEPPER: Yeah.

(laughter)

EVELYN BAILEY: OK.

PAM PEPPER: Actually, I've been arrested twice.

Should I say this?

Because one time when I was really

out of it my girlfriend, who was married, was

also I didn't realize--

dating someone else.

And when I found out I went to her house,

and this guy came to the door.

And, you know, I was all drunk and everything.

So they took me and threw me out physically.

I went over and slashed his tires, and then I drove away.

And the police arrested me and said,

"You are banned from Henrietta."

So I couldn't go to Henrietta for I don't know how long.

I went before a judge and-- yeah.

Meanwhile I'm having a perfectly fine career,

you know, in insurance.

Doing fine.

EVELYN BAILEY: So it was a double life?

PAM PEPPER: It really was.

And I was acting out what I thought I should

be as a lesbian, as a dyke.

Because I had read many books when I was young.

I went to Doc's Drugs, and they had these books about gay--

they had gay books which I would buy and look

around and be scared about.

And then I would read it, and then I'd

burn it so no one would know.

And I was probably, you know, fourteen, fifteen years old,

maybe younger, I don't know.

EVELYN BAILEY: Wow.

PAM PEPPER: Yeah, so that's what it told me,

that I would have to act very tough or get killed.

So I got into it.

EVELYN BAILEY: Talk to me a little bit about the fear.

PAM PEPPER: The fear?

EVELYN BAILEY: Why would you have

read them and burned the books?

PAM PEPPER: Oh, because I didn't want my parents

to know that I was interested in anything like that, or anyone.

I was totally-- no one--

I had not told anyone how I felt.

I was one of those people that was born gay.

I was never attracted to a man, ever in my entire life.

And so I-- then I thought I was the only one.

EVELYN BAILEY: And so you were really closeted.

PAM PEPPER: Right.

Because I thought, like, I'm, like--

EVELYN BAILEY: To the straight community--

PAM PEPPER: --there's something wrong with me.

Yeah.

There's-- you know, like I know I'm a little strange and quiet,

but I know there's something really wrong with me.

And I read those books.

And I thought, well, this is how I'm supposed to act.

You know, and someday maybe, you know,

when I get out there and about, this is how I should act.

Be tough, because all those women were tough.

Unfortunately, a lot of them in the novels

ended up hanging themselves.

It was like the usual ending, they

ended up going straight or hanging themselves.

(laughter)

EVELYN BAILEY: What a despairing outcome.

I mean--

PAM PEPPER: In the novels.

I don't know, in real life I think a lot of them just--

EVELYN BAILEY: Drank.

PAM PEPPER: Drank themselves to death.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

PAM PEPPER: You know, and I did.

I should have died from the way I drank.

I drank every night, every weekend, every afternoon.

Any time I had time free I was drinking.

EVELYN BAILEY: When you were not out and about--

PAM PEPPER: Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: --and you had your job--

PAM PEPPER: Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: --did you talk about any of your outings

at work?

PAM PEPPER: Never.

Never.

And I would have to make up things.

Like, if I was really down or something and they'd say,

what's wrong?

I'd say, oh, my lover, you know, is

doing a job on me or something.

But I would never identify a woman, ever.

Yeah.

And, you know, the way that my parents found out was that--

this woman's name was Shirley--

we went out for pizza, Shirley and I.

And her husband came to my parents' house

in West Brighton, knocked on the door, had a gun with him,

and said he was looking for the two of us,

because he was going to kill us because I was screwing around

with his wife.

And that's how my parents found out.

EVELYN BAILEY: Oh, my gosh.

PAM PEPPER: Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: How did they take it?

PAM PEPPER: They-- now, I'm adopted.

So I call my adoptive father Jim Pepper,

because I didn't like him.

So Jim Pepper kicked me out of the house.

I came back from having the pizza,

and they kicked me out on the spot.

EVELYN BAILEY: Oh, wow.

PAM PEPPER: We went to the Y, and lived there

for a little time.

EVELYN BAILEY: And was it Shirley Dunn?

No.

PAM PEPPER: No, it was Shirley Johnson.

No, she-- yeah, terrible.

EVELYN BAILEY: She's still alive?

PAM PEPPER: I don't know.

I have no idea.

Last I heard she had a cleaning contract at the airport.

EVELYN BAILEY: Oh, wow.

PAM PEPPER: Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: Wow.

So tell me what the Riverview was like.

I mean, I've heard that Lou was just

a wonderful woman who took every lesbian under her wing.

And would scrutinize their relationships and the people

they wanted to be with.

And tell them yes or no.

PAM PEPPER: Right, and try to--

and she would actually try to make matches.

Like, that person down there wants to buy you a drink.

You know, that type.

Yeah.

Yeah, she-- everyone loved her.

It was more like you felt safer there.

It was more like a family atmosphere,

because everybody-- pretty much the same clientele.

And then the people living upstairs.

Like I said, I lived there for a couple years upstairs.

The interesting thing of that, though, was--

make maybe not interesting but awful--

is that almost every night when the bar closed there

would be a ruckus outside.

Somebody so drunk that they were in a fight

and screaming at each other.

And, you know, the thing about the Riverview

that made it not safe for us was that next door

was the natatorium.

Did anyone ever tell you about that?

Where the police had the frogmen training in a pool,

training the police in a pool.

So then they would come over when they

were done to the Riverview.

And they knew we were all afraid of being arrested and whatnot,

and they would hit on the women.

And the women were afraid to say, get lost.

So that made things very uncomfortable

when the frogmen would come over.

EVELYN BAILEY: I see.

No, no one ever shared that--

PAM PEPPER: No?

Yeah, that's a long time ago.

I mean--

EVELYN BAILEY: --piece with me.

PAM PEPPER: Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: Were there--

you said there were fights every night practically when

it closed.

During the night were there women

who would get into fights inside the Riverview.

PAM PEPPER: Yeah.

Sure.

Too many drinks.

And there was one woman-- now that brings up,

and you might even know her--

I can't think of her name, but she was very jealous.

And if you looked at the woman she

was with she would come over and tell you

she was going to kill you and stuff like that.

That's my woman, don't look at her, blah, blah blah.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

PAM PEPPER: So there was that going on,

which made things a little tense.

But I wasn't scared.

I was big, and I was tough.

So, she didn't scare me.

In fact, I scared a lot of people.

People were afraid of me, because I was very silent.

And I drank a lot, and I hung around

with a guy called Arnie--

who was a straight guy that loved

hanging around the gay bars--

and would buy me drinks all night long.

EVELYN BAILEY: Wow.

PAM PEPPER: So they-- a lot of women thought I was a bisexual.

They couldn't have been more wrong.

But I was with a man, I had the long straight hair.

So--

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

Yeah.

PAM PEPPER: So I was not very popular.

I was feared, seriously.

You know, and if I walked in and there were people sitting

and there was not a chair and I'd walk over to somebody,

they'd get off their chair.

EVELYN BAILEY: Wow.

What power.

PAM PEPPER: Yeah.

I was having a good time.

EVELYN BAILEY: When did things turn around?

When did you--

PAM PEPPER: Like, become a real person again?

EVELYN BAILEY: No.

When did you stop going to the bars?

When did you stop--

PAM PEPPER: Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: And why?

PAM PEPPER: Yeah.

Well, I guess because when you finally settle down

with someone and you're buying a house

and you're doing gardening and you're

doing all this normal stuff, there's

no need to go to a bar to look for somebody.

That was to look for somebody.

EVELYN BAILEY: And the drinking?

PAM PEPPER: You know, that was--

there just wasn't any need for that anymore.

I was not, like, an alcoholic.

Like so many of the women say, oh, I was an alcoholic.

Well, maybe, I don't know.

But-- and they probably thought I was, because I drank so much.

But I just decided--

I would say I drank myself silly until I was about thirty-five,

and then my mother died.

And I was like, I'm on my own.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

PAM PEPPER: And so, can't do this anymore.

I've got to be a grown up.

I've got to take care of myself.

We had a very small family, the Peppers.

No relatives on either side, and just my sister, my brother

and myself.

My brother got disinherited.

My sister lived in California.

My mother died.

So I'm like, OK, I've got to grow up.

So I grew up.

EVELYN BAILEY: Just like that?

PAM PEPPER: Just like that, because I had to.

EVELYN BAILEY: Well, obviously your--

you know, your potential alcoholism was nonexistent.

Because most people who are alcoholics can't stop.

PAM PEPPER: Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: You know, they can't walk away from the drink.

PAM PEPPER: Right.

EVELYN BAILEY: And they have to involve themselves

in some kind of program to keep them

on the quote/unquote "straight and narrow."

PAM PEPPER: Yeah.

Drinking was a prop, it was part of smoking a cigarette.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

PAM PEPPER: And having a drink, and my-- oh,

I loved it, though.

I loved the feeling of what I got when I drank.

I loved the fun.

I love being settled down even more,

and having a nice house and a life.

EVELYN BAILEY: Now, when did that happen?

PAM PEPPER: I knew you were going to ask me that.

I have no idea.

I am like-- I have no historical recall.

EVELYN BAILEY: When you were thirty-five your mom died.

PAM PEPPER: Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: Do you remember what year that was?

PAM PEPPER: Well, I was born in '43.

EVELYN BAILEY: Oh, '78.

PAM PEPPER: OK.

EVELYN BAILEY: '78, '79.

PAM PEPPER: OK.

EVELYN BAILEY: And when that happened and you decided

that it was time to grow up--

PAM PEPPER: Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: --did you continue to go to the bars,

or did you stop that?

I mean--

PAM PEPPER: I continued to go to the bars

and drink Coca-Cola instead of booze,

because I wanted to make sure I didn't lose my job.

Before I didn't care if I lost my job,

and I would just pick up and do something else.

And I would be high at work on black beauties.

We used to get black beauties to get high.

If you knew someone that had a doctor that would give them

out, then you could do that.

So I just stopped doing that, and I'd

have a couple of drinks, and then a Coca-Cola

and hang around the bars.

Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: And when did you meet Elaine.

PAM PEPPER: Oh, that was--

that was only like maybe sixteen years ago.

Yeah.

We're not like the couples that have been together

for thirty years or something.

Before that I met Holly at--

EVELYN BAILEY: Holly Gerlock?

PAM PEPPER: No, Holly (unintelligible).

EVELYN BAILEY: Oh, yeah.

PAM PEPPER: I think you've seen her at a couple events.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.

PAM PEPPER: I met her at the Gay Alliance.

So-- and then we were together for '69.

Many, many short relationships before all that.

You know, a summer thing, a night thing, a whatever.

You know, all the things you do when you're in your twenties.

EVELYN BAILEY: So Holly was your first long term relationship?

PAM PEPPER: She was sixteen years

and I had a seven year before that, and a five year,

and two year and a two nights.

EVELYN BAILEY: So it kept getting longer?

PAM PEPPER: Yes.

That's true.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

PAM PEPPER: Yeah.

yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: When you look back over your life,

were you proud of who you were?

PAM PEPPER: You mean at the time I was experiencing it or--

EVELYN BAILEY: No.

PAM PEPPER: --now when I look back?

EVELYN BAILEY: I guess what I'm trying to get at is, was there

ever a time where you felt (pause) see,

for many people being gay is not an OK thing.

It affects their self-esteem.

It affects their image of who they are.

It's like for other people being gay is a source of pride.

It's a source of I am who I am, and no one is

going to tell me otherwise.

I will not allow myself to be denigrated or put

down or criticized, discriminated against.

I will speak up for myself.

I will stand on my own two feet and not let anyone deny

or put me in the position of having to say, no, I'm not gay.

You know what I mean?

PAM PEPPER: Yeah, of course that would depend

on what period in your life you were looking at yourself,

of course.

I mean, I'm not there even now, what you just described.

I'm not there.

I still have a fear that if someone knows I'm gay,

they're going to beat me up.

You know, I-- my biological brother was gay.

He was in a restaurant and walked out

and was beaten up by a group of men because he was gay.

And that wasn't that long ago, you know what I mean?

So I still have a great fear of it,

of people knowing out in public.

EVELYN BAILEY: But do you, yourself, ever

feel that it's a bad thing?

PAM PEPPER: I have to say that I don't

feel like I am a vital part of the gay community.

EVELYN BAILEY: I didn't ask that.

PAM PEPPER: I know, but that's because I don't--

I am not into the position of thinking

it's a wonderful thing that I'm proud of.

I wish I had been born straight, so I didn't

have to go through all that.

So I've never been proud of it, and like

blow it out your barracks bag because I'm gay

and live with it.

Never.

EVELYN BAILEY: No, but would you deny it?

PAM PEPPER: If someone asked me?

It would depend on who asked me.

Yes, I would, depending on who asked me.

EVELYN BAILEY: Would you deny it to yourself?

PAM PEPPER: No.

No.

No.

EVELYN BAILEY: See, and that--

we all compromise.

We all accommodate.

But when push comes to shove, and I look at who I am,

I look at who I am.

I feel good about who I am as a woman, as a lesbian,

as a teacher, as whatever.

I would never think of doing anything

that would negate that.

Like I wouldn't go to a cure.

I wouldn't go to a seminar to show me how not to be gay.

PAM PEPPER: Oh, no.

Good God, no.

EVELYN BAILEY: You know?

PAM PEPPER: Yeah.

Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: That kind of thing.

PAM PEPPER: Right.

Right.

No.

EVELYN BAILEY: So even though, externally, we

make accommodations, internally I'm OK.

PAM PEPPER: Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: I know I'm OK.

And I will not let anyone tell me differently.

PAM PEPPER: Exactly.

Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: And that's what I was trying to get at Pam.

PAM PEPPER: Oh, yeah.

Sure.

EVELYN BAILEY: You know?

PAM PEPPER: Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: Because when part of what this

will be used for-- and not only the documentary,

but the youth group will listen to people's stories.

And what they need to hear is you can question,

you can doubt, but in the end you

have to live with who you are.

You have to be honest about that.

And if you don't feel good about it,

then you have to look at why you don't feel good about it.

What is it about what you see in yourself or experience

that doesn't "fit", quote unquote, with an image you

may have?

PAM PEPPER: Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: So from that perspective,

that's why I asked the question.

Because kids need to know that there

are people who feel very accepting of themselves,

but may not be to the external world out there,

like gangbusters.

You know?

That there is a common sense or there

is a self-preservation aspect that you

need to pay attention to.

And just because you do that, it doesn't deny who you are.

It doesn't say who you are is not good or not

acceptable or bad.

It simply says in this circumstance,

I have to protect myself.

I have to be careful in order to not lose what I value.

PAM PEPPER: Right.

EVELYN BAILEY: Now, is that freedom?

Is that equality?

Of course not.

PAM PEPPER: Right.

EVELYN BAILEY: But recognizing that those things are not

tell us where we have to go in order

to make it OK to be out there and not

fearful of what will happen.

So that's what I was--

PAM PEPPER: Yeah.

Got it.

OK.

Got it.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah, that's what I was getting at.

PAM PEPPER: Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: And it was important for me,

and I think for other people to hear,

you read a lot when you were growing up.

And you had this image from those books of what

a real lesbian needs to be.

And, in fact, it provided you with some protection in some--

an identity in the community that kept you safe.

PAM PEPPER: Yap.

EVELYN BAILEY: OK.

However, as we grow and as we mature,

you don't have to drink and have a cigarette hanging out

and necessarily strut your stuff all around to be a lesbian.

It's OK to not do that.

It's OK to "live", quote unquote, a home life that--

where you garden.

Where you take the trash out.

Where you, you know, have someone

else cook dinner for you or whatever.

PAM PEPPER: Right.

Right.

EVELYN BAILEY: You know, that it's not this--

doesn't have to be this glamorous, exciting,

breathtaking experience.

Because life isn't lived out in the public.

PAM PEPPER: But I think you see kids today--

I mean, in colleges they have gay groups and everything else.

It's so much different.

When I was in college a woman got kicked off of our floor

because they found out she was gay.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

PAM PEPPER: So-- and today that would never happen.

I mean, I don't think so.

EVELYN BAILEY: Not in major universities, but in smaller--

PAM PEPPER: Still happening?

EVELYN BAILEY: --colleges where your rights are not

given to you because you are a member of the human race,

but because you are a member of an elite class.

PAM PEPPER: Oh, yeah. yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: Then, you know, you

can be blackballed for anything.

PAM PEPPER: Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: It wouldn't happen

at the U of R. It wouldn't happen at RIT, because most

of the students there who are gay would not stand for it.

PAM PEPPER: Right.

EVELYN BAILEY: But it did happen at the U of R in the seventies.

And it did happen at RIT in the seventies.

The witch hunts were done.

And the witch hunts, when they identified who you

were, your parents were told.

A letter was sent to the president of the college,

and you were dismissed as a student.

PAM PEPPER: Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: No different from the--

what you just told me.

PAM PEPPER: Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: You know?

PAM PEPPER: Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: So today, yes, it's a different story.

But it is amazing how quickly we forget,

and how quickly time moves on.

And the people who grow up today don't

realize the struggles that went on before that they

have to be vigilant about.

PAM PEPPER: Right.

EVELYN BAILEY: You know?

PAM PEPPER: Sure.

EVELYN BAILEY: And that's the real challenge.

That's the real work that needs to continue.

That the young people be taught, whether they're

gay or straight or pink or blue or whatever,

young people need to know the history of the gay community,

and their own history to recognizance.

Forty, Fifty years ago when the Eastman Program began

they didn't hire Italians.

Why?

Pure prejudice.

Pure prejudice.

Can that happen again today?

Of course it can.

PAM PEPPER: History-- yeah, we want to prevent history

repeating itself.

And you see some of that happening now

in the political arena where now women's rights are

once again being attacked.

EVELYN BAILEY: Exactly.

PAM PEPPER: Minority voting being attacked.

EVELYN BAILEY: And religious rights.

This country was founded on religious freedom.

How free do we leave people to follow their own religion

in this country?

PAM PEPPER: Right.

EVELYN BAILEY: We have the conservative Baptists,

we have the Mormon.

We have people saying, "Oh, you can't be that.

You can't do that.

You can't live that way."

PAM PEPPER: Yeah.