Audio Interview, Pamela Barres, May 17, 2012

PAMELA BARRES: I had no time.

It's kind of off the cuff.

EVELYN BAILEY: That's OK.

You have an incredible story, number one.

PAMELA BARRES: OK.

EVELYN BAILEY: Number two, your involvement in the Alliance,

and your involvement at Kodak with Lambda at Kodak,

and your beginning the Transgender Book Group here

in Rochester a number of years ago,

and the ensuing struggle to get GENDA passed, and, well, ENDA

passed first, and now GENDA.

So I think, where we want to begin is--

PAMELA BARRES: SONDA passed, not GENDA, not ENDA, SONDA.

EVELYN BAILEY: GENDA?

PAMELA BARRES: SONDA.

SONDA.

EVELYN BAILEY: SONDA.

PAMELA BARRES: Sexual Orientation Nondiscrimination

Act.

ENDA is still hanging in the Congress.

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

Where we want to begin is with Kodak.

Were you there when the group was formed?

Or were you--

PAMELA BARRES: No, I was not there

when the group was formed.

But I think I got involved with the group not that long

after it was formed.

And I was a part of the--

I don't even know how long after I got involved.

But I was a part of the committee for the first dinner

that they had, where Elizabeth Birch came and spoke and did

everything we asked her not to do as part of the committee.

We didn't want her to talk about Domestic Partner Benefits

and really bring up politics and stuff.

And of course, Elizabeth talked about all the things

we kind of asked her not to do.

But it turned out to work very well.

We did not know at the time that George Fisher was

going to be a person that would be

very supportive of the gay community.

It turns out that his daughter was a lesbian.

But at the time, of course, nobody knew that.

And so we were all kind of like, oh my God,

what the hell is she saying?

You know, talking.

So because she kind of put them on the spot.

Apple's done this.

Why haven't you done this?

Polaroid may have done it at that time, too.

So she was like challenging them.

And this is what, being in the conservative culture of Kodak,

you weren't going to challenge the CEO.

We were like, oh my God, we're going to get

blown out of the water here.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Let me ask you.

Do you remember where that was held?

PAMELA BARRES: Yeah, I do.

I'm almost positive that it was held down in Burgundy Basin

Inn down on Marsh Road.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Because I remember being there filming

one of those management reception

dinner things with Elizabeth Birch.

But I don't know.

Because you brought her in twice?

PAMELA BARRES: No, I think only once.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Just once?

So that must be the one I filmed then.

PAMELA BARRES: I believe that was the first one.

And I--

KEVIN INDOVINO: I just don't remember going

to the Burgundy Basin Inn.

But I probably did.

PAMELA BARRES: I'm pretty sure that's where it was.

Because there were two very closeted gay men at my table.

And everyone was very afraid to come out.

Even though people were there, no one went around the room

and said that they were part of Lambda.

There was one guy there who worked

in the factory, who was kind of open about being gay.

But the other people were all kind of listening and, "oh, um,

yeah."

And so I went up to these two guys that I knew them from--

I was in HR at the time.

And I believe they were both in HR.

And I went to them and said, you know, I know that you're gay.

You should know that I may have only identify myself

as a cross-dresser at that time I'm not sure.

And I don't remember what year it was, damn it.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, it was probably about '94.

PAMELA BARRES: Yeah.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Because when I first met you--

PAMELA BARRES: I knew I was a transgendered person.

I knew I was probably transsexual.

But at that point, it was all kind of fluid.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Because when I first

met you through David Kosel.

PAMELA BARRES: Right, I met you through David, right.

You were his housemate.

KEVIN INDOVINO: You were not yet Pam.

PAMELA BARRES: No.

KEVIN INDOVINO: I think you had just started

thinking about transitioning.

PAMELA BARRES: Yeah, that's probably true.

Yeah, it took me--

KEVIN INDOVINO: Because I think I met you even with your wife.

You were at David's house with your wife.

PAMELA BARRES: Oh yeah, I was still married.

It's going to be forty-eight years this year,

which is amazing actually in and of itself.

She's the one that has got all the--

I mean, the credit goes to her really.

I mean, most wives are long gone by this point.

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, so let's backtrack a little bit then.

Let's first talk about why you got

involved with Lambda at Kodak.

What were you personally seeking from that experience?

PAMELA BARRES: Well, since the first time that I started--

this whole journey started for me really in 1988.

And I had been thinking about it for a while.

And it was really bothering me.

And my spouse and I would have some arguments.

And my daughter was going to college

in Ohio University, Athens, Ohio,

which is in the middle of no place.

And it's a fairly long drive from here.

And so we'd get in the car.

And she couldn't get out of the car.

And then we'd scream at each other for eight hours

until we got to Athens, about how I needed to do something.

And I don't know what to do.

And I always had this weird fear that I

was going to be blackmailed.

And everything would be-- and so the whole thing

was very strange.

But when I decided to go start doing some stuff,

well, the catalyst for me was my cousin,

who was the same age as I was, forty-four at the time.

He died on the way to work of a massive heart attack one day.

And I went.

And he was, at the time, living in Washington DC,

working down there.

But he was more like a brother to me than a cousin.

And we'd gone to high school together.

And we were friends.

He got me in Drum Corps, The Crusaders, at the time.

And it was just we hadn't seen each other in a long time,

but I had seen him a couple of months before that.

And he had a lesbian daughter that they didn't talk about.

And I had found out about the same time

that Linda was a lesbian.

And George and I were someplace talking.

I was trying to give him an indication

to tell me that his daughter was a lesbian.

At which point, I would have said, George,

there's something I want to tell you about myself.

Because I'm just starting to think about it.

And I hadn't done that much about it yet.

But it was like it was this driving need.

I'd shaved off my mustache.

Because it was my birthday when we saw him.

We went down to that place in Hilton Head, the timeshare.

And we went down there.

And on the way down, I had shaved off my mustache.

Because it was my birthday.

And I decided women don't have mustaches.

Well, some women do, but not to the size that one was anyway.

And so it was kind of like the beginning.

I have to do something.

But I still don't know what to do.

I was still so afraid.

And when George died, I went home from his funeral

and said to myself, I could die, too.

And then, what?

I'd never know who I really was.

I'd never know, never have lived my real life.

And so I called up--

and I had been seeing a psychiatrist, whose advice was

don't do this, don't give into it, never cross-dress.

It's great being a guy.

You can go out in the winter and write your name in the snow.

I could never understand the significance of that.

You'd either have to drink an awful lot

or have a very short name.

But why would you want to do that?

But it was great being a guy, you

don't want to do this, and never give into it.

And so I wasn't getting any place with him.

And I was just becoming more and more depressed

and having more and more stomach problems.

And my temper was like a hair trigger.

And it wasn't good.

So I called up the Monroe County Medical Society.

And I said, I need somebody who knows something about this.

And they recommended I see a woman

by the name of Pamela Walter, Pam Walter, who turns out

is a lesbian.

But she would never admit to any of us that she was a lesbian.

Boy, she's strict.

But my little bit of gaydar went off.

And she always struck me as a lesbian.

But anyway--

KEVIN INDOVINO: Was she medical or psychology?

PAMELA BARRES: Psychology.

EVELYN BAILEY: Psychology.

PAMELA BARRES: She was a social worker,

a certified social worker.

And so I started seeing her.

I saw her a couple of times.

And she was, stay away from the gay community

here if you don't think you're gay, if you still like women.

And I wasn't sure.

Maybe I'm bi, maybe I'm not.

But anyway, so I went to some clubs in Denver.

I was always afraid to do a lot of this in Rochester.

But I had a girlfriend, friend, who I've known for a long time.

And she was in our wedding.

And her husband had left her.

It turns out he was a gay man.

And so I was I was comforting her.

And my suitcase didn't arrive on time.

It's kind of an interesting story.

It probably should-- not part of this Shoulders to Stand On.

EVELYN BAILEY: This is fine.

PAMELA BARRES: But it's kind of fun.

I haven't thought about this in a while.

And so I was at her house.

And I was on my way to San Diego.

And I stayed over in Denver, took the weekend away,

I did it.

And my suitcase didn't arrive.

And I don't know what I said.

I said, "They're eventually going to bring it."

But I said, "This is really irritating me.

My clothes are in there and stuff like that."

I said, "I'm staying here with you and your daughter.

And I should maybe dress up like a woman.

And we could take my picture and say,

see what I was forced to do because my clothes."

So she said, "Oh yeah, that's cool."

She's fun.

So I had some kind of a skirt on and a weird top.

Because she was a larger woman.

And so she took a picture of it, of me.

And so she let me have her bed.

And she was sleeping in the guestroom or something,

which is a little strange.

And she brought me up breakfast.

She said, "How about I go bring you breakfast?"

They had a little veranda out overlooking--

they were in the foothills of the Rockies, very nice.

And so she gives me this-- you know,

we have breakfast together up on that little veranda

looking out.

And she said, "I don't know how this came along,

but what would you really like to do with your life?"

Or something, I think she was trying

to decide what she was going to do with her life,

now that David had left.

And she was still heartbroken about this.

And I said, "Well, you know, last night, when we dressed up

and we took the pictures fooling around."

I said, "Well, I think I want to be a woman, Carol.

I think that's who I really am.

And I guess I want to be like that all the time."

And she said, "Oh, you want to try on my clothes?"

And opened her closet door.

(laughter)

It was really kind of funny.

And she was in some kind of a support group.

And one of her best friends in that support group

happened to be a gay man.

And anyway, so she introduced me to him.

And we talked.

And he talked.

And we drank a lot of stuff.

And so I spent a week in--

how'd this happen?

I think it was the next time I went out there.

We all went to a gay bar together.

And I had some clothes.

As a matter of fact, I wore some Carol's clothes.

And we went out and bought the world's worst wig

at some wig shop up in the Capitol Hill

District of Denver, which is the gay Cheesman Park.

Anyway, it was a really bad wig.

And I felt very comfortable and very at home.

And then, when I was in San Diego,

I found a couple of gay bars.

I don't remember how I did it.

But I found a couple of gay bars.

And I went there and I'm watching all these guys, mostly

guy.

Eh, women and guys were both dancing.

I just felt that these are my people.

This is my community.

And I just immediately felt comfortable.

Now, I identify as bisexual maybe now.

And maybe there was this whole--

I was giving myself permission to do certain things.

It's hard to know.

So when there was going to be a Pride Parade--

one of the ones that started at the AIDS Garden

and ended up in the park--

not Highland Park, but it started at Highland Park,

and ended up at the Genesee Valley Park.

And we marched up Highland or Elmwood.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Probably Elmwood, yeah.

PAMELA BARRES: And then, we ended up

marching all the way to the park.

Because the festival, the picnic started right after the parade.

EVELYN BAILEY: I think there was Highland Bowl.

PAMELA BARRES: Hm?

EVELYN BAILEY: Highland Bowl.

PAMELA BARRES: No, it wasn't Highland Bowl.

No, that was another time.

No, this started at the AIDS Garden.

We actually started on Highland, we started in Highland

and then took Highland, I think, up to South--

EVELYN BAILEY: Elmwood.

PAMELA BARRES: And then, over down to Elmwood.

And then, we marched, I think, on Elmwood.

I think we had half the lane or something,

and under the big bridge by the U of R.

And people were up there on the railroad bridge

screaming and yelling.

And then, we went into the park.

I distinctly remember that.

And so I was just tagging along.

And I had a friend with me, a trans woman,

another friend of mine.

And we went to this.

And we thought we were being kind of brave.

And I had my wig on and was trying to look butch,

like a lesbian.

But anyway, I kind of tagged along with the Kodak group

somehow.

The Lambda group was marching.

And I met David.

But we didn't really introduce ourselves all that much.

And I marched along with David.

And so then I think he was telling me about the fact

that there was this Lambda thing.

Or I was an HR Rep.

So I knew about the networks and stuff.

And the first meeting was right outside my office.

So the first meeting I attended, they

were meeting in this conference room right outside my office.

So I went in there.

But I made sure I sat on the end of a table,

where anybody walking by the door couldn't see me.

And then, I announced who I was.

And that's how I started to become friends with David.

I said, "Oh, I met you.

I was in the parade.

Oh, you know."

And then, we used to have long arguments, whether transgender

people belong in the GLB community or not,

and blah, blah, blah.

And I had a crush on David, take that off the tape.

I had a crush on David for quite a while.

(laughter)

KEVIN INDOVINO: Go up to him, "David, guess what?"

PAMELA BARRES: He knows, not that anything ever

happened, but anyway.

So that's how I started.

Because it just seemed like the right thing to be part of.

And I was an HR Rep.

So I didn't have to come out to be part of the group,

if I didn't want to.

Because I was just practicing diversity, and leading

the way, and stuff like that.

And so for quite a while, that's what I was.

And then, we had different groups

talking about different things at my local HR department.

After that time, we looked after the corporate staffs,

the communication, public affairs, the finance people,

stuff like that, and a couple of others.

And so I was in that group of HR people.

And our manager would have each of us

kind of make a presentation on something.

And so I had the people from the Lambda network

come and make a presentation to these HR people.

And I mentioned that I was proud to be a member of this group.

And so my assistant came in to me

and said, "So what kind of a diverse person are you?"

And I came out to her.

And that started me down the road of being very much more

open about it.

But I was not coming to work at Kodak as a woman, never

really did, though I went to social events as a woman.

And we had an off-site meeting.

And I went as Pam.

We were at our little group meeting at the art

gallery at Cullery Union there.

And so I went to that.

And I had sent around to a lot of people.

Because I was going from office to office.

And I had like an hour or a half presentation to come out to--

after a while, I could do it in two and a half minutes.

But initially, I was setting the stage and, you know,

the whole thing.

And there was two people that were coming that didn't know.

Because I sent an email saying, "Guess who's coming to dinner?"

And went.

And then, I realized, oh my God, I never got to those people.

So I ran outside and caught them as they're walking in the door

and said, "By the way, here I am!

Hi!"

And that just kept happening.

Sue and I had made an agreement.

Because I had separated from her for a while.

I moved out.

And we had made an agreement that I would not

try to transition while we were both working at Kodak Office.

Because it was just too much of a strain on her, look at her.

You know what her husband--

blah, blah, blah.

And I mean, even though most everybody knew anyway,

I think it still happened.

But that was still part of our deal.

And so when I went to the first Lambda meeting,

I went in a three piece male business suit with my wingtips

on, which I still have someplace in the closet.

And I came out as a member of the network

to the high level management.

Because we had all high level managers at each table.

And then, we talked a little bit about ourselves

to try to give these people some cultural sensitivity

to the issue.

And that was the last one I went to as Peter.

After that, I always went as Pam.

And yeah, it really changed my life.

And I got on the board of Lambda.

They asked me to be on the board.

Because I was an HR person and didn't have an hourly job.

I guess I had a salary type job.

And so after a couple meetings, I

think we were going to do something new.

I suggested that we include-- we were working on our mission

statement.

And I suggested that they include

the word transgender in the we serve,

this is the community that we're part of.

And so they put it to a vote of the membership

basically online.

And while it didn't get 100 percent approval,

it did get a decent size number of people

thought it was a good thing to do.

And so it became part of the official mission

statement of Lambda.

Then, it was not only gay and lesbian, but gay, lesbian,

and bisexual.

And I don't know if that would have happened if I didn't ask,

but I did.

It wasn't like, oh, if you don't do this

I'm going to walk out the door.

Because I've never felt that that was the way to do it.

If you want somebody to support your issues,

you have to support their issues.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Can I just clarify something here?

So you submitted language into the mission statement

for bisexuality or transgender?

PAMELA BARRES: Transgender.

I think bisexuality was already in there.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, OK.

PAMELA BARRES: My belief is--

I don't know that for fact, but I think so.

But I wanted the word transgender.

Because yeah, while I'm cool with being

part of the gay community and everything,

you do feel more inclusive once in a while

if they use the term that actually describes you.

I know a lot of lesbians.

They're talking about the gay community.

Well, you know, they don't want to be gay women necessarily.

They prefer to be lesbians.

So the LGBT, GLBT, whatever which way

it is, it's nice to have the T there.

And it's nice that people actually mention it.

And it's even nicer if they know what it

means, which doesn't always--

you know, a lot of times it's lip service.

But we're making progress.

So that's how that came about.

And when I left Kodak, obviously, I

planned one of the dinners.

And we had it at the--

ah, what the hell is the name of it?

It went right out of my head.

It's across from where Tara's used to be.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, the Harro East.

PAMELA BARRES: Yeah, the Harro East.

Yeah, I planned a dinner that we had there.

I was on the planning committee.

And I don't know.

I think I worked with a venue at determining

what the menu was going to be.

And saying it.

But I did all of that.

I'd go from work.

And of course, I was at Kodak Office.

I was still going to work there with a suit and stuff on.

So I was planning it as Peter.

But then, I showed up and I ironed out the details as Pam.

And so I thought, oh God.

I was always so paranoid that--

I don't know.

Are you going to arrest me or something?

It was ridiculous.

It took me a long time to get over that.

And I find it amazing sometimes that I stand up

and tell my life story to college groups,

maybe shorter than this.

Because I was so afraid of who I was, so afraid.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Is it indicative that maybe you still

would quite sure exactly who you were?

Were you still trying to figure it out?

PAMELA BARRES: No, I think it was--

well, yeah, maybe.

No, I think I already knew.

I didn't know how to do--

I wasn't sure how to go to get there.

I knew where I wanted to go.

But I didn't know how I could get there without losing

everything that I had, Kevin.

I think I always knew where I wanted to go.

I just didn't know what to do about it.

And you know, I'm sixty-nine.

So when I got married, it was 1964.

There wasn't any internet.

And I use it with the library and look up transportation.

Because maybe would be something like transgender

or transsexual.

And that's when we had card catalogs.

I mean, we were talking--

KEVIN INDOVINO: You were in the trans section.

PAMELA BARRES: Yeah, right, you're looking for something,

you know?

I was looking for the book on model railroads,

if anyone ever asked me.

I mean, it just bizarre.

KEVIN INDOVINO: That was life back then.

PAMELA BARRES: Yeah.

And so I did one dinner.

And that was, I think, the only time

I actually saw anything that resembled nudity

in a woman's restroom.

Because Cindy Martin, who had then come out to George Fisher,

because she was his assistant, after the first spring dinner--

spring dinner, that's ESPA--

after the first management dinner,

she had the courage, after what she

heard from him and everything, she came out to him.

And so she was then at the dinner

not necessarily in her role as his assistant,

but she had came to that dinner in her role

as a leader of Lambda and as a lesbian.

And she might have got a different job by then.

But I don't remember.

But so we're both in the ladies room together.

And she just hikes up her skirt.

And she's pulling up her pantyhose.

And I thought, OK, well, she's accepting me.

And I don't think I've ever seen anybody ever

do that in the ladies room since, only Cindy Martin.

But anyway, because she wasn't in the stalls.

She was just standing there.

We were talking at the sink.

And she goes, OK, let me adjust these damn things.

Because I don't think she normally didn't dresses,

I think.

EVELYN BAILEY: No.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, I always seem

to remember her in a pantsuit.

PAMELA BARRES: Always.

Yeah, so anyway, that was just a little humor there.

What else do you want to know?

I'm losing my train of thought.

EVELYN BAILEY: When did you transgender then?

When did you totally move from--

PAMELA BARRES: Well, it was a progression.

I stopped wearing suits to work.

I'd wear sweaters.

I stopped wearing ties.

And I was going through electrolysis

to get rid of my beard.

I have about ten thousand dollars in my face actually.

A little at a time.

Every Saturday morning, I'd go out there

and have them stick me with-- it's a painful process.

It separates the boys from the girls.

It truly does.

And I was doing it in such a way that I wouldn't take food

off the table.

I wouldn't jeopardize my family.

So I drove the same damn car for over ten years, which

a lot of people do anyway.

But I would have liked to and could've afforded a new car,

except, I was putting the money in my face

and that kind of stuff.

And little by little, I started changing.

I was the Director of Latin American Human

Resources for Kodak when this whole thing began.

But I didn't think I could keep that job and ever

transition on the job.

I didn't think I could possibly do that in Latin America.

And so I transferred to the Domestic Division.

And that's when I actually first started

getting involved with David.

That was in the early nineties.

That's when this parade would have been.

That's when I joined Lambda.

I was in domestic HR.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Now let's see, the parade would have

had to have been after '93.

That's when we broke ground for the Garden.

PAMELA BARRES: OK, well then, it might have been that.

Because the Garden was brand new.

I know that.

KEVIN INDOVINO: It was between '93, '94 then.

PAMELA BARRES: Yeah, and that would be about the right time.

And so at that point, I'd been going out a lot more.

And I was becoming more and more open about myself.

But it was a slow progression.

So as I started changing my appearance little by little,

people started asking me.

A couple of the managers asked me questions

about what's going on.

And so I told them.

Because people would come in for meetings.

I would be going over HR policies.

Some of these people hadn't seen me in six months or something.

And they started noticing that I now had permed hair.

My face looked different.

You know, I'd been taking hormones for a while.

So maybe my weight was shifting a little bit.

I was developing some breasts.

And so I told them.

And so all the management of Health--

my client at that time was Health Imaging,

the x-ray people.

And maybe there was a good group of people

to have as a client base.

Because they were somewhat in the medical field.

They kind of maybe were more open to it

than the amateur photographers might have been.

I don't know.

So they basically said, it's not your looks

that we're hiring you for.

It's the information and the advice

you provide to us is why we value you as our employee,

as our HR guy, or whatever it was.

And so that was just a gradual progression.

How do I not keep my job--

how do I keep my marriage, how do I keep my job, and not--

because I saw people do stupid things.

I had a lot of friends that leapt into this thing.

And their marriage went out the window.

And they got fired from their job.

And so I was progressing at an extremely slow pace.

But I had made the decision that I was very uncomfortable

in the men's room.

That's not the decision I made.

But I was uncomfortable in the men's room.

And that's when I think I decided

I was probably bisexual.

Because I was watching a friend of mine.

I guess I had been at the urinal urinating.

He was standing there.

And I was talking to him.

I was over by the door or the sink.

We were chatting.

And I was saying, (unintelligible) a pretty good

looking guy.

I mean, he has nice hairy arms.

And he's well built. And I'm thinking

he's got all those things that I don't have anymore

and don't want.

But I just found him quite attractive.

And I think I was starting to--

I don't know if it was the hormones or whatever was.

Or I was just becoming more comfortable with myself.

But I started giving myself permission

to think about that would be an OK thing to look at.

And it was probably sometime after that

that I realized I had a crush on David.

So that's the second time or third time I've said that now.

Hm, look at this a little closer.

Anyway, so I'd stopped going to--

I'd made arrangements with a nurse's office to just start

using the bathrooms.

Because it was one floor above me, where my office was,

or two floors.

But the elevator was like out that door.

It was very close.

So and then, I got the early retirement opportunity.

And then, Sue got laid off just before.

I had a month left to work when Sue got laid off.

Was when they just threw me all the downsizings.

And so I could have started coming

to work as Pam at that point.

I mean, I almost was anyway.

I was so close.

People would come into my office at Kodak

and say, pardon me, ma'am, I'm looking for Pete Barres.

And I would say, well, you found her and things like that.

But I didn't.

Because I thought I'd be a bit of an asshole,

if I would have had to put-- because when you transition

at work, you're putting your coworkers

through a little bit of a process here.

And so why bother for one month?

I mean, I thought that would be really kind of dumb.

So I got a certificate for a dress shop

for my going away gift from the group and everything.

So I mean, this was not a secret to anyone.

It was a lot of fun.

And we had a good time with it.

EVELYN BAILEY: And what year was this, Pam?

PAMELA BARRES: '98.

This was '98.

And that's when I left Kodak.

And at that point then, I had been living pretty much

full time, except for those occasions where I would

go to work and with my mother.

I hadn't come out to my mother.

My dad had already died.

I came out to him.

But he was in a coma.

I never did know if he knew it or not.

It just showed a lot of courage on my part.

But I believe if he would have lived and I could--

because he was very homophobic.

He was the St. Paul, hate the sin, love the sinner, shit.

And I think, if he got-- and they had gay friends.

My mother was very active in drama, amateur drama,

particularly with the church and stuff.

And there was a couple of guys that there was no doubt

that they were gay.

And everybody knew it.

And they knew it.

And my parents knew it.

But it was great people, but man that homosexuality,

can't deal with that stuff.

And he was a lay minister for the Lutheran church

and talked to people all over the world, wrote letters.

This was before the internet.

And I really think I would have made a difference.

But I might have been wrong.

I don't know.

But so I went through some of his papers after he died.

And I was really devastated.

I was, wow, God maybe it's a good thing I didn't.

You know, my mother, later when I came out to her, said,

your dad would have had a real hard time with this.

So I don't know.

And so I got involved right after I left, and maybe

even before I left Kodak.

David was bringing-- Kosel was bringing--

he was the chairman of Out & Equal at the time,

planning to bring their first thing here.

And I was on the committee.

I was on that committee.

And I think I made a speech as Pam.

I came to the thing as Pam.

It was right after I had left.

And I decided I didn't need to work.

Because things were looking good.

I had it pretty good, took my lump sum

money and stuff like that.

And then, I lost fifty thousand dollars in the market.

I retired in February.

And by September, I was fifty thousand dollars less

than I had when I walked out the door.

And I'm thinking, shit, this keeps up--

you know, because I was fifty-six.

When this keeps up, I'm going to be in real trouble.

By the time I'm sixty, I won't have any money left.

So I better try to find a job.

And I could not find a job as Pam.

I was trying.

But I could never get beyond--

if I'd have a phone interview, they'd never called me back.

I'd send out all kinds of letters with my resume.

HR jobs is what I was looking for.

And I would get lots of great feedback coming back in.

But then, I would bring up the transsexual stuff.

Because I figured they're going to find out anyway.

And there's all my references.

I mean, how am I going to finesse this any other way?

And I had changed my name.

And I had changed my driver's license

at that point to say female.

But my name, I had changed my name a couple of years

before from Peter to P. R. My legal name

is P. R., two initials.

And I was doing my mother's--

well, that's not the main reason.

But she was developing Alzheimer's.

So I was handing all her-- you know, paying her bills

and handling her stuff.

And so I would have to be dealing with people.

And on the phone, it was just simpler

to be P. R. I could sign everything and nobody knew.

My voice has never sounded feminine on the phone,

never will.

And so I changed it to P. R. And so I had everything changed.

And then, I changed my gender after I changed my name

on my driver's license.

So I was essentially living as a woman.

And I was interviewed by the paper for this Out & Equal

thing.

And so it was supposed to come out on the Sunday morning.

So I went zooming down to my mother's house, my mother's

apartment, where she was living, and came out to her.

Because she knew.

They found a stash of clothing I had when I was maybe eighteen.

But we never talked about it, other

than you need to see a psychiatrist or somebody.

And you need to tell Sue.

Because we were just engaged then.

And they asked me, have you done that?

Which I did.

It did force me to do that.

But at that time, we didn't know what Sue was getting into,

nor did I for that matter.

And I went once to the psychiatrist.

And that was it.

So I never went back.

Oh yeah, I'll come back.

Sure, I'll talk to anybody.

I never went back and went deeply into the-- you know,

I was in the closet through most of my life.

And I lost my train of thought again.

KEVIN INDOVINO: That's good.

PAMELA BARRES: I could ramble forever.

Ask me another question.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, I'm just going

to pull you back a little bit.

Because I don't want to go too far ahead.

PAMELA BARRES: Yeah, and I don't want to be here

all night either.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Your work with Lambda,

if you were to kind of sum it all up,

what would be, in your mind, your personal greatest

achievements with that group or your proudest moment

with that group, or your most memorable moment

with that group?

PAMELA BARRES: No, I think the thing I accomplished

was getting them knowledgeable of what transgender was

and getting them at least officially paying lip service

to it in the mission statement.

And so this was making the trans community

a part of their mission.

That's the simplest thing.

And it helped me.

It helped me grow.

Certainly, it helped me grow.

And I think I helped give them a better understanding of what

it was all about.

And I got to meet people who didn't really understand what

the hell we were talking about.

I got sent down to the Out & Equal conference

in Washington as a representative of Kodak,

that Kodak paid for it, that Diversity and Pride paid for.

I went down with Dan Samper and--

God, I can't think of her name, a straight woman.

Everyone thought she was the lesbian.

It'll come to me at three in the morning.

But anyway, so yeah, I think--

KEVIN INDOVINO: Lisa.

PAMELA BARRES: Yeah, Lisa Vitelli, yeah.

Helping those people that I came in contact with at Kodak

understanding what it was and helping