Audio Interview, Pamela Barres, May 17, 2012
- PAMELA BARRES: I had no time.
- It's kind of off the cuff.
- EVELYN BAILEY: That's OK.
- You have an incredible story, number one.
- PAMELA BARRES: OK.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Number two, your involvement in the Alliance,
- and your involvement at Kodak with Lambda at Kodak,
- and your beginning the Transgender Book Group here
- in Rochester a number of years ago,
- and the ensuing struggle to get GENDA passed, and, well, ENDA
- passed first, and now GENDA.
- So I think, where we want to begin is--
- PAMELA BARRES: SONDA passed, not GENDA, not ENDA, SONDA.
- EVELYN BAILEY: GENDA?
- PAMELA BARRES: SONDA.
- SONDA.
- EVELYN BAILEY: SONDA.
- PAMELA BARRES: Sexual Orientation Nondiscrimination
- Act.
- ENDA is still hanging in the Congress.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- Where we want to begin is with Kodak.
- Were you there when the group was formed?
- Or were you--
- PAMELA BARRES: No, I was not there
- when the group was formed.
- But I think I got involved with the group not that long
- after it was formed.
- And I was a part of the--
- I don't even know how long after I got involved.
- But I was a part of the committee for the first dinner
- that they had, where Elizabeth Birch came and spoke and did
- everything we asked her not to do as part of the committee.
- We didn't want her to talk about Domestic Partner Benefits
- and really bring up politics and stuff.
- And of course, Elizabeth talked about all the things
- we kind of asked her not to do.
- But it turned out to work very well.
- We did not know at the time that George Fisher was
- going to be a person that would be
- very supportive of the gay community.
- It turns out that his daughter was a lesbian.
- But at the time, of course, nobody knew that.
- And so we were all kind of like, oh my God,
- what the hell is she saying?
- You know, talking.
- So because she kind of put them on the spot.
- Apple's done this.
- Why haven't you done this?
- Polaroid may have done it at that time, too.
- So she was like challenging them.
- And this is what, being in the conservative culture of Kodak,
- you weren't going to challenge the CEO.
- We were like, oh my God, we're going to get
- blown out of the water here.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Let me ask you.
- Do you remember where that was held?
- PAMELA BARRES: Yeah, I do.
- I'm almost positive that it was held down in Burgundy Basin
- Inn down on Marsh Road.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Because I remember being there filming
- one of those management reception
- dinner things with Elizabeth Birch.
- But I don't know.
- Because you brought her in twice?
- PAMELA BARRES: No, I think only once.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Just once?
- So that must be the one I filmed then.
- PAMELA BARRES: I believe that was the first one.
- And I--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I just don't remember going
- to the Burgundy Basin Inn.
- But I probably did.
- PAMELA BARRES: I'm pretty sure that's where it was.
- Because there were two very closeted gay men at my table.
- And everyone was very afraid to come out.
- Even though people were there, no one went around the room
- and said that they were part of Lambda.
- There was one guy there who worked
- in the factory, who was kind of open about being gay.
- But the other people were all kind of listening and, "oh, um,
- yeah."
- And so I went up to these two guys that I knew them from--
- I was in HR at the time.
- And I believe they were both in HR.
- And I went to them and said, you know, I know that you're gay.
- You should know that I may have only identify myself
- as a cross-dresser at that time I'm not sure.
- And I don't remember what year it was, damn it.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, it was probably about '94.
- PAMELA BARRES: Yeah.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Because when I first met you--
- PAMELA BARRES: I knew I was a transgendered person.
- I knew I was probably transsexual.
- But at that point, it was all kind of fluid.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Because when I first
- met you through David Kosel.
- PAMELA BARRES: Right, I met you through David, right.
- You were his housemate.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: You were not yet Pam.
- PAMELA BARRES: No.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I think you had just started
- thinking about transitioning.
- PAMELA BARRES: Yeah, that's probably true.
- Yeah, it took me--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Because I think I met you even with your wife.
- You were at David's house with your wife.
- PAMELA BARRES: Oh yeah, I was still married.
- It's going to be forty-eight years this year,
- which is amazing actually in and of itself.
- She's the one that has got all the--
- I mean, the credit goes to her really.
- I mean, most wives are long gone by this point.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, so let's backtrack a little bit then.
- Let's first talk about why you got
- involved with Lambda at Kodak.
- What were you personally seeking from that experience?
- PAMELA BARRES: Well, since the first time that I started--
- this whole journey started for me really in 1988.
- And I had been thinking about it for a while.
- And it was really bothering me.
- And my spouse and I would have some arguments.
- And my daughter was going to college
- in Ohio University, Athens, Ohio,
- which is in the middle of no place.
- And it's a fairly long drive from here.
- And so we'd get in the car.
- And she couldn't get out of the car.
- And then we'd scream at each other for eight hours
- until we got to Athens, about how I needed to do something.
- And I don't know what to do.
- And I always had this weird fear that I
- was going to be blackmailed.
- And everything would be-- and so the whole thing
- was very strange.
- But when I decided to go start doing some stuff,
- well, the catalyst for me was my cousin,
- who was the same age as I was, forty-four at the time.
- He died on the way to work of a massive heart attack one day.
- And I went.
- And he was, at the time, living in Washington DC,
- working down there.
- But he was more like a brother to me than a cousin.
- And we'd gone to high school together.
- And we were friends.
- He got me in Drum Corps, The Crusaders, at the time.
- And it was just we hadn't seen each other in a long time,
- but I had seen him a couple of months before that.
- And he had a lesbian daughter that they didn't talk about.
- And I had found out about the same time
- that Linda was a lesbian.
- And George and I were someplace talking.
- I was trying to give him an indication
- to tell me that his daughter was a lesbian.
- At which point, I would have said, George,
- there's something I want to tell you about myself.
- Because I'm just starting to think about it.
- And I hadn't done that much about it yet.
- But it was like it was this driving need.
- I'd shaved off my mustache.
- Because it was my birthday when we saw him.
- We went down to that place in Hilton Head, the timeshare.
- And we went down there.
- And on the way down, I had shaved off my mustache.
- Because it was my birthday.
- And I decided women don't have mustaches.
- Well, some women do, but not to the size that one was anyway.
- And so it was kind of like the beginning.
- I have to do something.
- But I still don't know what to do.
- I was still so afraid.
- And when George died, I went home from his funeral
- and said to myself, I could die, too.
- And then, what?
- I'd never know who I really was.
- I'd never know, never have lived my real life.
- And so I called up--
- and I had been seeing a psychiatrist, whose advice was
- don't do this, don't give into it, never cross-dress.
- It's great being a guy.
- You can go out in the winter and write your name in the snow.
- I could never understand the significance of that.
- You'd either have to drink an awful lot
- or have a very short name.
- But why would you want to do that?
- But it was great being a guy, you
- don't want to do this, and never give into it.
- And so I wasn't getting any place with him.
- And I was just becoming more and more depressed
- and having more and more stomach problems.
- And my temper was like a hair trigger.
- And it wasn't good.
- So I called up the Monroe County Medical Society.
- And I said, I need somebody who knows something about this.
- And they recommended I see a woman
- by the name of Pamela Walter, Pam Walter, who turns out
- is a lesbian.
- But she would never admit to any of us that she was a lesbian.
- Boy, she's strict.
- But my little bit of gaydar went off.
- And she always struck me as a lesbian.
- But anyway--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Was she medical or psychology?
- PAMELA BARRES: Psychology.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Psychology.
- PAMELA BARRES: She was a social worker,
- a certified social worker.
- And so I started seeing her.
- I saw her a couple of times.
- And she was, stay away from the gay community
- here if you don't think you're gay, if you still like women.
- And I wasn't sure.
- Maybe I'm bi, maybe I'm not.
- But anyway, so I went to some clubs in Denver.
- I was always afraid to do a lot of this in Rochester.
- But I had a girlfriend, friend, who I've known for a long time.
- And she was in our wedding.
- And her husband had left her.
- It turns out he was a gay man.
- And so I was I was comforting her.
- And my suitcase didn't arrive on time.
- It's kind of an interesting story.
- It probably should-- not part of this Shoulders to Stand On.
- EVELYN BAILEY: This is fine.
- PAMELA BARRES: But it's kind of fun.
- I haven't thought about this in a while.
- And so I was at her house.
- And I was on my way to San Diego.
- And I stayed over in Denver, took the weekend away,
- I did it.
- And my suitcase didn't arrive.
- And I don't know what I said.
- I said, "They're eventually going to bring it."
- But I said, "This is really irritating me.
- My clothes are in there and stuff like that."
- I said, "I'm staying here with you and your daughter.
- And I should maybe dress up like a woman.
- And we could take my picture and say,
- see what I was forced to do because my clothes."
- So she said, "Oh yeah, that's cool."
- She's fun.
- So I had some kind of a skirt on and a weird top.
- Because she was a larger woman.
- And so she took a picture of it, of me.
- And so she let me have her bed.
- And she was sleeping in the guestroom or something,
- which is a little strange.
- And she brought me up breakfast.
- She said, "How about I go bring you breakfast?"
- They had a little veranda out overlooking--
- they were in the foothills of the Rockies, very nice.
- And so she gives me this-- you know,
- we have breakfast together up on that little veranda
- looking out.
- And she said, "I don't know how this came along,
- but what would you really like to do with your life?"
- Or something, I think she was trying
- to decide what she was going to do with her life,
- now that David had left.
- And she was still heartbroken about this.
- And I said, "Well, you know, last night, when we dressed up
- and we took the pictures fooling around."
- I said, "Well, I think I want to be a woman, Carol.
- I think that's who I really am.
- And I guess I want to be like that all the time."
- And she said, "Oh, you want to try on my clothes?"
- And opened her closet door.
- (laughter)
- It was really kind of funny.
- And she was in some kind of a support group.
- And one of her best friends in that support group
- happened to be a gay man.
- And anyway, so she introduced me to him.
- And we talked.
- And he talked.
- And we drank a lot of stuff.
- And so I spent a week in--
- how'd this happen?
- I think it was the next time I went out there.
- We all went to a gay bar together.
- And I had some clothes.
- As a matter of fact, I wore some Carol's clothes.
- And we went out and bought the world's worst wig
- at some wig shop up in the Capitol Hill
- District of Denver, which is the gay Cheesman Park.
- Anyway, it was a really bad wig.
- And I felt very comfortable and very at home.
- And then, when I was in San Diego,
- I found a couple of gay bars.
- I don't remember how I did it.
- But I found a couple of gay bars.
- And I went there and I'm watching all these guys, mostly
- guy.
- Eh, women and guys were both dancing.
- I just felt that these are my people.
- This is my community.
- And I just immediately felt comfortable.
- Now, I identify as bisexual maybe now.
- And maybe there was this whole--
- I was giving myself permission to do certain things.
- It's hard to know.
- So when there was going to be a Pride Parade--
- one of the ones that started at the AIDS Garden
- and ended up in the park--
- not Highland Park, but it started at Highland Park,
- and ended up at the Genesee Valley Park.
- And we marched up Highland or Elmwood.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Probably Elmwood, yeah.
- PAMELA BARRES: And then, we ended up
- marching all the way to the park.
- Because the festival, the picnic started right after the parade.
- EVELYN BAILEY: I think there was Highland Bowl.
- PAMELA BARRES: Hm?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Highland Bowl.
- PAMELA BARRES: No, it wasn't Highland Bowl.
- No, that was another time.
- No, this started at the AIDS Garden.
- We actually started on Highland, we started in Highland
- and then took Highland, I think, up to South--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Elmwood.
- PAMELA BARRES: And then, over down to Elmwood.
- And then, we marched, I think, on Elmwood.
- I think we had half the lane or something,
- and under the big bridge by the U of R.
- And people were up there on the railroad bridge
- screaming and yelling.
- And then, we went into the park.
- I distinctly remember that.
- And so I was just tagging along.
- And I had a friend with me, a trans woman,
- another friend of mine.
- And we went to this.
- And we thought we were being kind of brave.
- And I had my wig on and was trying to look butch,
- like a lesbian.
- But anyway, I kind of tagged along with the Kodak group
- somehow.
- The Lambda group was marching.
- And I met David.
- But we didn't really introduce ourselves all that much.
- And I marched along with David.
- And so then I think he was telling me about the fact
- that there was this Lambda thing.
- Or I was an HR Rep.
- So I knew about the networks and stuff.
- And the first meeting was right outside my office.
- So the first meeting I attended, they
- were meeting in this conference room right outside my office.
- So I went in there.
- But I made sure I sat on the end of a table,
- where anybody walking by the door couldn't see me.
- And then, I announced who I was.
- And that's how I started to become friends with David.
- I said, "Oh, I met you.
- I was in the parade.
- Oh, you know."
- And then, we used to have long arguments, whether transgender
- people belong in the GLB community or not,
- and blah, blah, blah.
- And I had a crush on David, take that off the tape.
- I had a crush on David for quite a while.
- (laughter)
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Go up to him, "David, guess what?"
- PAMELA BARRES: He knows, not that anything ever
- happened, but anyway.
- So that's how I started.
- Because it just seemed like the right thing to be part of.
- And I was an HR Rep.
- So I didn't have to come out to be part of the group,
- if I didn't want to.
- Because I was just practicing diversity, and leading
- the way, and stuff like that.
- And so for quite a while, that's what I was.
- And then, we had different groups
- talking about different things at my local HR department.
- After that time, we looked after the corporate staffs,
- the communication, public affairs, the finance people,
- stuff like that, and a couple of others.
- And so I was in that group of HR people.
- And our manager would have each of us
- kind of make a presentation on something.
- And so I had the people from the Lambda network
- come and make a presentation to these HR people.
- And I mentioned that I was proud to be a member of this group.
- And so my assistant came in to me
- and said, "So what kind of a diverse person are you?"
- And I came out to her.
- And that started me down the road of being very much more
- open about it.
- But I was not coming to work at Kodak as a woman, never
- really did, though I went to social events as a woman.
- And we had an off-site meeting.
- And I went as Pam.
- We were at our little group meeting at the art
- gallery at Cullery Union there.
- And so I went to that.
- And I had sent around to a lot of people.
- Because I was going from office to office.
- And I had like an hour or a half presentation to come out to--
- after a while, I could do it in two and a half minutes.
- But initially, I was setting the stage and, you know,
- the whole thing.
- And there was two people that were coming that didn't know.
- Because I sent an email saying, "Guess who's coming to dinner?"
- And went.
- And then, I realized, oh my God, I never got to those people.
- So I ran outside and caught them as they're walking in the door
- and said, "By the way, here I am!
- Hi!"
- And that just kept happening.
- Sue and I had made an agreement.
- Because I had separated from her for a while.
- I moved out.
- And we had made an agreement that I would not
- try to transition while we were both working at Kodak Office.
- Because it was just too much of a strain on her, look at her.
- You know what her husband--
- blah, blah, blah.
- And I mean, even though most everybody knew anyway,
- I think it still happened.
- But that was still part of our deal.
- And so when I went to the first Lambda meeting,
- I went in a three piece male business suit with my wingtips
- on, which I still have someplace in the closet.
- And I came out as a member of the network
- to the high level management.
- Because we had all high level managers at each table.
- And then, we talked a little bit about ourselves
- to try to give these people some cultural sensitivity
- to the issue.
- And that was the last one I went to as Peter.
- After that, I always went as Pam.
- And yeah, it really changed my life.
- And I got on the board of Lambda.
- They asked me to be on the board.
- Because I was an HR person and didn't have an hourly job.
- I guess I had a salary type job.
- And so after a couple meetings, I
- think we were going to do something new.
- I suggested that we include-- we were working on our mission
- statement.
- And I suggested that they include
- the word transgender in the we serve,
- this is the community that we're part of.
- And so they put it to a vote of the membership
- basically online.
- And while it didn't get 100 percent approval,
- it did get a decent size number of people
- thought it was a good thing to do.
- And so it became part of the official mission
- statement of Lambda.
- Then, it was not only gay and lesbian, but gay, lesbian,
- and bisexual.
- And I don't know if that would have happened if I didn't ask,
- but I did.
- It wasn't like, oh, if you don't do this
- I'm going to walk out the door.
- Because I've never felt that that was the way to do it.
- If you want somebody to support your issues,
- you have to support their issues.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Can I just clarify something here?
- So you submitted language into the mission statement
- for bisexuality or transgender?
- PAMELA BARRES: Transgender.
- I think bisexuality was already in there.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, OK.
- PAMELA BARRES: My belief is--
- I don't know that for fact, but I think so.
- But I wanted the word transgender.
- Because yeah, while I'm cool with being
- part of the gay community and everything,
- you do feel more inclusive once in a while
- if they use the term that actually describes you.
- I know a lot of lesbians.
- They're talking about the gay community.
- Well, you know, they don't want to be gay women necessarily.
- They prefer to be lesbians.
- So the LGBT, GLBT, whatever which way
- it is, it's nice to have the T there.
- And it's nice that people actually mention it.
- And it's even nicer if they know what it
- means, which doesn't always--
- you know, a lot of times it's lip service.
- But we're making progress.
- So that's how that came about.
- And when I left Kodak, obviously, I
- planned one of the dinners.
- And we had it at the--
- ah, what the hell is the name of it?
- It went right out of my head.
- It's across from where Tara's used to be.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, the Harro East.
- PAMELA BARRES: Yeah, the Harro East.
- Yeah, I planned a dinner that we had there.
- I was on the planning committee.
- And I don't know.
- I think I worked with a venue at determining
- what the menu was going to be.
- And saying it.
- But I did all of that.
- I'd go from work.
- And of course, I was at Kodak Office.
- I was still going to work there with a suit and stuff on.
- So I was planning it as Peter.
- But then, I showed up and I ironed out the details as Pam.
- And so I thought, oh God.
- I was always so paranoid that--
- I don't know.
- Are you going to arrest me or something?
- It was ridiculous.
- It took me a long time to get over that.
- And I find it amazing sometimes that I stand up
- and tell my life story to college groups,
- maybe shorter than this.
- Because I was so afraid of who I was, so afraid.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Is it indicative that maybe you still
- would quite sure exactly who you were?
- Were you still trying to figure it out?
- PAMELA BARRES: No, I think it was--
- well, yeah, maybe.
- No, I think I already knew.
- I didn't know how to do--
- I wasn't sure how to go to get there.
- I knew where I wanted to go.
- But I didn't know how I could get there without losing
- everything that I had, Kevin.
- I think I always knew where I wanted to go.
- I just didn't know what to do about it.
- And you know, I'm sixty-nine.
- So when I got married, it was 1964.
- There wasn't any internet.
- And I use it with the library and look up transportation.
- Because maybe would be something like transgender
- or transsexual.
- And that's when we had card catalogs.
- I mean, we were talking--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: You were in the trans section.
- PAMELA BARRES: Yeah, right, you're looking for something,
- you know?
- I was looking for the book on model railroads,
- if anyone ever asked me.
- I mean, it just bizarre.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: That was life back then.
- PAMELA BARRES: Yeah.
- And so I did one dinner.
- And that was, I think, the only time
- I actually saw anything that resembled nudity
- in a woman's restroom.
- Because Cindy Martin, who had then come out to George Fisher,
- because she was his assistant, after the first spring dinner--
- spring dinner, that's ESPA--
- after the first management dinner,
- she had the courage, after what she
- heard from him and everything, she came out to him.
- And so she was then at the dinner
- not necessarily in her role as his assistant,
- but she had came to that dinner in her role
- as a leader of Lambda and as a lesbian.
- And she might have got a different job by then.
- But I don't remember.
- But so we're both in the ladies room together.
- And she just hikes up her skirt.
- And she's pulling up her pantyhose.
- And I thought, OK, well, she's accepting me.
- And I don't think I've ever seen anybody ever
- do that in the ladies room since, only Cindy Martin.
- But anyway, because she wasn't in the stalls.
- She was just standing there.
- We were talking at the sink.
- And she goes, OK, let me adjust these damn things.
- Because I don't think she normally didn't dresses,
- I think.
- EVELYN BAILEY: No.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, I always seem
- to remember her in a pantsuit.
- PAMELA BARRES: Always.
- Yeah, so anyway, that was just a little humor there.
- What else do you want to know?
- I'm losing my train of thought.
- EVELYN BAILEY: When did you transgender then?
- When did you totally move from--
- PAMELA BARRES: Well, it was a progression.
- I stopped wearing suits to work.
- I'd wear sweaters.
- I stopped wearing ties.
- And I was going through electrolysis
- to get rid of my beard.
- I have about ten thousand dollars in my face actually.
- A little at a time.
- Every Saturday morning, I'd go out there
- and have them stick me with-- it's a painful process.
- It separates the boys from the girls.
- It truly does.
- And I was doing it in such a way that I wouldn't take food
- off the table.
- I wouldn't jeopardize my family.
- So I drove the same damn car for over ten years, which
- a lot of people do anyway.
- But I would have liked to and could've afforded a new car,
- except, I was putting the money in my face
- and that kind of stuff.
- And little by little, I started changing.
- I was the Director of Latin American Human
- Resources for Kodak when this whole thing began.
- But I didn't think I could keep that job and ever
- transition on the job.
- I didn't think I could possibly do that in Latin America.
- And so I transferred to the Domestic Division.
- And that's when I actually first started
- getting involved with David.
- That was in the early nineties.
- That's when this parade would have been.
- That's when I joined Lambda.
- I was in domestic HR.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Now let's see, the parade would have
- had to have been after '93.
- That's when we broke ground for the Garden.
- PAMELA BARRES: OK, well then, it might have been that.
- Because the Garden was brand new.
- I know that.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: It was between '93, '94 then.
- PAMELA BARRES: Yeah, and that would be about the right time.
- And so at that point, I'd been going out a lot more.
- And I was becoming more and more open about myself.
- But it was a slow progression.
- So as I started changing my appearance little by little,
- people started asking me.
- A couple of the managers asked me questions
- about what's going on.
- And so I told them.
- Because people would come in for meetings.
- I would be going over HR policies.
- Some of these people hadn't seen me in six months or something.
- And they started noticing that I now had permed hair.
- My face looked different.
- You know, I'd been taking hormones for a while.
- So maybe my weight was shifting a little bit.
- I was developing some breasts.
- And so I told them.
- And so all the management of Health--
- my client at that time was Health Imaging,
- the x-ray people.
- And maybe there was a good group of people
- to have as a client base.
- Because they were somewhat in the medical field.
- They kind of maybe were more open to it
- than the amateur photographers might have been.
- I don't know.
- So they basically said, it's not your looks
- that we're hiring you for.
- It's the information and the advice
- you provide to us is why we value you as our employee,
- as our HR guy, or whatever it was.
- And so that was just a gradual progression.
- How do I not keep my job--
- how do I keep my marriage, how do I keep my job, and not--
- because I saw people do stupid things.
- I had a lot of friends that leapt into this thing.
- And their marriage went out the window.
- And they got fired from their job.
- And so I was progressing at an extremely slow pace.
- But I had made the decision that I was very uncomfortable
- in the men's room.
- That's not the decision I made.
- But I was uncomfortable in the men's room.
- And that's when I think I decided
- I was probably bisexual.
- Because I was watching a friend of mine.
- I guess I had been at the urinal urinating.
- He was standing there.
- And I was talking to him.
- I was over by the door or the sink.
- We were chatting.
- And I was saying, (unintelligible) a pretty good
- looking guy.
- I mean, he has nice hairy arms.
- And he's well built. And I'm thinking
- he's got all those things that I don't have anymore
- and don't want.
- But I just found him quite attractive.
- And I think I was starting to--
- I don't know if it was the hormones or whatever was.
- Or I was just becoming more comfortable with myself.
- But I started giving myself permission
- to think about that would be an OK thing to look at.
- And it was probably sometime after that
- that I realized I had a crush on David.
- So that's the second time or third time I've said that now.
- Hm, look at this a little closer.
- Anyway, so I'd stopped going to--
- I'd made arrangements with a nurse's office to just start
- using the bathrooms.
- Because it was one floor above me, where my office was,
- or two floors.
- But the elevator was like out that door.
- It was very close.
- So and then, I got the early retirement opportunity.
- And then, Sue got laid off just before.
- I had a month left to work when Sue got laid off.
- Was when they just threw me all the downsizings.
- And so I could have started coming
- to work as Pam at that point.
- I mean, I almost was anyway.
- I was so close.
- People would come into my office at Kodak
- and say, pardon me, ma'am, I'm looking for Pete Barres.
- And I would say, well, you found her and things like that.
- But I didn't.
- Because I thought I'd be a bit of an asshole,
- if I would have had to put-- because when you transition
- at work, you're putting your coworkers
- through a little bit of a process here.
- And so why bother for one month?
- I mean, I thought that would be really kind of dumb.
- So I got a certificate for a dress shop
- for my going away gift from the group and everything.
- So I mean, this was not a secret to anyone.
- It was a lot of fun.
- And we had a good time with it.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And what year was this, Pam?
- PAMELA BARRES: '98.
- This was '98.
- And that's when I left Kodak.
- And at that point then, I had been living pretty much
- full time, except for those occasions where I would
- go to work and with my mother.
- I hadn't come out to my mother.
- My dad had already died.
- I came out to him.
- But he was in a coma.
- I never did know if he knew it or not.
- It just showed a lot of courage on my part.
- But I believe if he would have lived and I could--
- because he was very homophobic.
- He was the St. Paul, hate the sin, love the sinner, shit.
- And I think, if he got-- and they had gay friends.
- My mother was very active in drama, amateur drama,
- particularly with the church and stuff.
- And there was a couple of guys that there was no doubt
- that they were gay.
- And everybody knew it.
- And they knew it.
- And my parents knew it.
- But it was great people, but man that homosexuality,
- can't deal with that stuff.
- And he was a lay minister for the Lutheran church
- and talked to people all over the world, wrote letters.
- This was before the internet.
- And I really think I would have made a difference.
- But I might have been wrong.
- I don't know.
- But so I went through some of his papers after he died.
- And I was really devastated.
- I was, wow, God maybe it's a good thing I didn't.
- You know, my mother, later when I came out to her, said,
- your dad would have had a real hard time with this.
- So I don't know.
- And so I got involved right after I left, and maybe
- even before I left Kodak.
- David was bringing-- Kosel was bringing--
- he was the chairman of Out & Equal at the time,
- planning to bring their first thing here.
- And I was on the committee.
- I was on that committee.
- And I think I made a speech as Pam.
- I came to the thing as Pam.
- It was right after I had left.
- And I decided I didn't need to work.
- Because things were looking good.
- I had it pretty good, took my lump sum
- money and stuff like that.
- And then, I lost fifty thousand dollars in the market.
- I retired in February.
- And by September, I was fifty thousand dollars less
- than I had when I walked out the door.
- And I'm thinking, shit, this keeps up--
- you know, because I was fifty-six.
- When this keeps up, I'm going to be in real trouble.
- By the time I'm sixty, I won't have any money left.
- So I better try to find a job.
- And I could not find a job as Pam.
- I was trying.
- But I could never get beyond--
- if I'd have a phone interview, they'd never called me back.
- I'd send out all kinds of letters with my resume.
- HR jobs is what I was looking for.
- And I would get lots of great feedback coming back in.
- But then, I would bring up the transsexual stuff.
- Because I figured they're going to find out anyway.
- And there's all my references.
- I mean, how am I going to finesse this any other way?
- And I had changed my name.
- And I had changed my driver's license
- at that point to say female.
- But my name, I had changed my name a couple of years
- before from Peter to P. R. My legal name
- is P. R., two initials.
- And I was doing my mother's--
- well, that's not the main reason.
- But she was developing Alzheimer's.
- So I was handing all her-- you know, paying her bills
- and handling her stuff.
- And so I would have to be dealing with people.
- And on the phone, it was just simpler
- to be P. R. I could sign everything and nobody knew.
- My voice has never sounded feminine on the phone,
- never will.
- And so I changed it to P. R. And so I had everything changed.
- And then, I changed my gender after I changed my name
- on my driver's license.
- So I was essentially living as a woman.
- And I was interviewed by the paper for this Out & Equal
- thing.
- And so it was supposed to come out on the Sunday morning.
- So I went zooming down to my mother's house, my mother's
- apartment, where she was living, and came out to her.
- Because she knew.
- They found a stash of clothing I had when I was maybe eighteen.
- But we never talked about it, other
- than you need to see a psychiatrist or somebody.
- And you need to tell Sue.
- Because we were just engaged then.
- And they asked me, have you done that?
- Which I did.
- It did force me to do that.
- But at that time, we didn't know what Sue was getting into,
- nor did I for that matter.
- And I went once to the psychiatrist.
- And that was it.
- So I never went back.
- Oh yeah, I'll come back.
- Sure, I'll talk to anybody.
- I never went back and went deeply into the-- you know,
- I was in the closet through most of my life.
- And I lost my train of thought again.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: That's good.
- PAMELA BARRES: I could ramble forever.
- Ask me another question.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, I'm just going
- to pull you back a little bit.
- Because I don't want to go too far ahead.
- PAMELA BARRES: Yeah, and I don't want to be here
- all night either.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Your work with Lambda,
- if you were to kind of sum it all up,
- what would be, in your mind, your personal greatest
- achievements with that group or your proudest moment
- with that group, or your most memorable moment
- with that group?
- PAMELA BARRES: No, I think the thing I accomplished
- was getting them knowledgeable of what transgender was
- and getting them at least officially paying lip service
- to it in the mission statement.
- And so this was making the trans community
- a part of their mission.
- That's the simplest thing.
- And it helped me.
- It helped me grow.
- Certainly, it helped me grow.
- And I think I helped give them a better understanding of what
- it was all about.
- And I got to meet people who didn't really understand what
- the hell we were talking about.
- I got sent down to the Out & Equal conference
- in Washington as a representative of Kodak,
- that Kodak paid for it, that Diversity and Pride paid for.
- I went down with Dan Samper and--
- God, I can't think of her name, a straight woman.
- Everyone thought she was the lesbian.
- It'll come to me at three in the morning.
- But anyway, so yeah, I think--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Lisa.
- PAMELA BARRES: Yeah, Lisa Vitelli, yeah.
- Helping those people that I came in contact with at Kodak
- understanding what it was and helping
- get the transgender as part of the network.
- Really basically, that's it.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Now--
- PAMELA BARRES: Go ahead.
- EVELYN BAILEY: When you left Kodak and began
- looking for work, did you have a sense
- that you weren't finding work because--
- PAMELA BARRES: Oh yeah, I mean, that
- wasn't all that hard to determine, of course, yeah.
- Oh yeah, no, I mean, I know exactly that's yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: So had you been--
- PAMELA BARRES: Because when I went back and said,
- I've got to go back as Peter, and I went to a very nice wig
- shop that dealt with women that were having masectomies,
- and going through chemo, and losing their hair,
- and I went in there and I said, "I
- need to get a wig that looks like this."
- And the woman asked me, "Why?"
- I said, "Because I want my hair all cut short.
- I'm going to have to go to work as a man."
- She said, "Well, why would you want to do that?"
- I said, "Well, because."
- You know, yeah, and then I got a couple
- job offers within a month.
- I had a very nice job offer in Washington,
- which I almost took, which I did take, and then turned down.
- Because my mother was officially diagnosed with Alzheimer's.
- And things weren't going to work.
- So yeah no, no doubt I was discriminated
- against in that part of my life.
- Yeah, I couldn't get a job.
- Now, could I have eventually?
- Maybe I don't know.
- But I had this sense of urgency.
- Because I was losing money and didn't feel that I--
- it wasn't happening.
- I mean, nothing was happening.
- I wasn't getting beyond the first opportunity at all.
- And so once I went back and started working as a guy,
- or looking for a job as a guy, yeah, it wasn't so hard.
- It was a lot easier.
- And yeah, I mean, I was still older.
- I still had to work only for a large corporation.
- But yeah, there's no doubt about that in my mind at all.
- EVELYN BAILEY: It was at that time,
- I think, that the Alliance hired you as Executive Director,
- wasn't it?
- PAMELA BARRES: Well, yeah, there's a little bit more
- to it.
- EVELYN BAILEY: You were on the board.
- PAMELA BARRES: There's a little bit more to it than that.
- Yeah, asked me to be.
- I was asked to be on the board.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: What year was that?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Who asked you?
- PAMELA BARRES: Actually, Tanya Smolinsky
- is the first person that had recommended me, yeah.
- Tanya, because the Trans Group at that point
- was meeting in the old building there
- on Elton Street, the old GAGV Building.
- And so I got to know Tanya a little bit.
- Because I was facilitating-- running the group at that time.
- And we had started as--
- there was one group in Rochester called the CD Network, which
- was the cross-dressing group.
- Initially, it was formed in 1985,
- I believe was when it was first founded.
- It was founded as TVA, Transvestites Anonymous.
- And when you went up to the mailbox to get the mail,
- you were hardly anonymous.
- When it would be something large that you
- had to go pick up at the window, it was hard to be anonymous.
- So I had joined that group.
- I got involved with that group right after I first came out.
- They had gone on hiatus.
- And they had come back.
- And they changed.
- I went to the first meeting, kind
- of a reorganizational meeting.
- They changed the name from the TVA to CD network.
- Because the CD could be called an investment group.
- It could be exchanging music, CDs, instead of cross-dresser.
- So they changed it.
- We met at Horus Leatherbridge's house on Wellesley Street,
- I guess it is.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- PAMELA BARRES: I just walked by there.
- It's all boarded up.
- It's terrible.
- Anyway, and so I was going to that.
- And then, we kept looking for places.
- We used to be right across the hall
- here, when the Church was here.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Unity?
- PAMELA BARRES: Metropolitan Community Church--
- EVELYN BAILEY: MCC.
- PAMELA BARRES: --were here first,
- before they moved out to the place on Norris,
- and then where they are now.
- So we were allowed to use their space.
- And we kept looking for spaces to meet.
- For a while, we did it at a beauty salon.
- There was a drag queen by the name of Freddie Bass, who
- was a hairdresser.
- He had a salon down on Ridge Road.
- So we met at his salon, which was perfect for cross-dressers.
- Because they had all the mirrors.
- So I mean, what could be better?
- And then eventually, that closed.
- And so we were looking for other places to meet.
- And I'm wrong.
- Because at that point, I had separated from Sue.
- And I had this house in East Rochester
- that I was house sitting for someone, living in.
- And there were a lot of us in the CD Group
- that identified as transsexuals.
- We didn't want to know how to cover our beard.
- We didn't want to know where the best falsies could be bought.
- We wanted to have our own.
- And we didn't want to have a beard and that kind of stuff.
- So we were starting to identify as transsexuals.
- And we didn't seem to fit with the cross-dressers, at least
- at that time.
- And so I started having them get together.
- We would get together.
- I would invite all the transsexuals I knew.
- And we would get together at my house.
- And we'd have drinks and probably
- carry on having wild parties.
- Because the neighbors were complaining, apparently.
- I don't know.
- They didn't like the people coming and going.
- They were strange looking people.
- And so that's how we started that.
- And then Perette Barella started a specific group
- called the Rochester Transgendered Organization.
- And she picked up a nest.
- But when I lost the house, she started
- having spaghetti dinners at her apartment.
- And it was just the transsexual folks.
- And that then led to Perette forming the Rochester
- Transgendered Organization.
- And after about a year, I got involved in it.
- And she was burning out and didn't want to be part of it.
- And I kind of took over being the leader of the group.
- And I changed the name, with everyone's approval,
- to the Rochester Transgendered Group,
- as opposed to Organization.
- Because there was nothing organized about us.
- And so that's kind of where we went.
- And then, we started meeting at the Gay Alliance.
- And I got to know Tanya.
- And I got on the board.
- And I was on my second term as a board member,
- when, we as a board, terminated Holly,
- whose first name is Bill.
- Bill Holly, yeah.
- We terminated him.
- And I was retired at the time.
- And Shirley Bowen was retired at the time.
- But everybody else on the board was working.
- And Shirley didn't want to do it for whatever reason.
- And I guess I got the short straw.
- And I was asked if I would be Executive
- Director on an interim basis.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Do you remember what year this was?
- PAMELA BARRES: Yeah, 2002, June seventeenth, I believe.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Who was president of the board?
- Do you remember?
- PAMELA BARRES: It might have been Kelly at the time.
- It was either Bill Kelly or Shirley Bowen.
- But I think it was Bill Kelly.
- I think, Kelly was the whole time that I was ED, Kelly was.
- Yeah, Kelly was.
- Yeah, it was Bill Kelly.
- And so I was asked to do that.
- And it was June.
- And I did.
- And I loved the job.
- I really did.
- I really got to love this community
- and love this organization.
- And I love the job.
- I had been an HR manager at Kodak.
- I'd been purchasing.
- I was a sales person for Kodak, a marketing person.
- And it seemed that it was a place to use a lot of my skills
- that I developed over the years and still be myself.
- I mean, the big joke is I learned
- about comfortable shoes.
- Susan Jordan loves that line.
- But you know, I was the most feminine
- of the women working there at the time.
- And I stopped.
- I didn't come with heels anymore.
- And maybe I didn't carry the big purse anymore.
- And I kind of became--
- my role models were these lesbians,
- who I loved very much, except for Tanya, we
- had some problems.
- But then, who hasn't?
- (laughter)
- And I mean, I put her on final warning,
- which should not ever be.
- Because that's a personal thing.
- But I'd had it just right up to here.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
- PAMELA BARRES: I had it.
- EVELYN BAILEY: As many--
- PAMELA BARRES: Yeah, so I was the Executive
- Director for exactly nine months and gave birth
- to Rosemary's baby, is the way I like
- to describe Chuck Docketts.
- Because he was big hat, no cattle.
- And it was just a bad choice.
- I've never seen anybody interview
- quite as well as he did.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Oh, he was smooth.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Well rehearsed.
- PAMELA BARRES: And oh, he was tremendous.
- But it was just a fucking facade,
- if you pardon my language.
- And the guy was a crook, I think, also.
- He certainly ran us into the ground.
- I mean, he destroyed the organization.
- He really did.
- But it was nine months to the day.
- It was the seventeenth.
- March seventeenth, I think, was when he officially took over.
- And so anyway, I think it was the seventeenth.
- But it was, yeah, nine months.
- And yeah, you can ask me anything you want about that.
- That's where we are.
- EVELYN BAILEY: But he did accomplish--
- PAMELA BARRES: Well, he got us here.
- He certainly accomplished breaking the bank.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yes, and he also got rid of Tanya.
- PAMELA BARRES: Well, yeah, no, he did.
- I mean, he said that Bill told him
- that was a condition of taking the job.
- And Bill denies that.
- And so I don't know.
- I really don't know.
- But I mean, I had a letter in there
- that, if you ever do this, this, or this again, you are gone.
- There will be no if's and's, or but's about it.
- Because one of the things that we never really did very well
- was document performance issues.
- And you just can't--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: You're coming from an HR standpoint.
- PAMELA BARRES: Yeah, you really can't just fire somebody.
- I mean, you have to go through a little bit of a process
- and have a bit of a trail.
- And I built a trail.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yes, and the third time Tanya told Chuck,
- no, she wasn't going to do something,
- she was out the door.
- PAMELA BARRES: Oh, I'm sure, yeah.
- I mean--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I forgot what her title was here.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Chuck Bowen?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: No, Tanya.
- PAMELA BARRES: She was the program person.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Oh, she was Center Director before.
- And then--
- PAMELA BARRES: When we hired--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Bill Holly.
- PAMELA BARRES: No before Holly.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Gelder, Rob Gelder.
- PAMELA BARRES: Yeah, Rob.
- When we hired Rob, I mean, she couldn't get along Rob.
- I mean, because she wasn't in charge.
- She wasn't in charge.
- She couldn't deal with that.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Once you ended your position
- as Executive Director, was it then
- that you got involved with ESPA or were you--
- PAMELA BARRES: Yeah, it was essentially then.
- Because I started going to ENJ days and stuff.
- Because when the city ordinance was put into effect here,
- in 2001 I believe, I think was when
- the non-discrimination ordinance in Rochester went into effect.
- The folks from ESPA came up, a foreman and somebody else
- came up with him.
- They wanted their language to go into the thing.
- But you know, we already had an agreement
- with Tim Manes and stuff.
- And they worked with the corporate council.
- And I didn't want to see that thing be changed.
- They wanted to have the thing amended at that point
- to include the words gender expression
- and identity and all this kind of stuff,
- which would have been great.
- Except, we came very late to the table.
- I got involved.
- They asked me to come way late.
- I looked at the thing.
- And Tim was very sure that it covered trans people.
- But it was covered in the definition of sex, I think,
- or of gender, something.
- But it included both-- it talked about the social and physical
- characteristics of a woman.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yes, I remember that.
- PAMELA BARRES: And I thought--
- and my understanding of logic, if something said "and,"
- it had to fulfill both of the conditions.
- Or it wouldn't be wouldn't be true.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Instead of and/or.
- PAMELA BARRES: So I wanted to I wanted to add to that and/or.
- And Tim ran it by the corporate council.
- And they said, well, they think it was fine the way it was.
- But they would not be upset about doing that.
- So right after the thing-- and I spoke at that city council
- meeting.
- And right after that, they came back
- and made an immediate amendment to change it,
- as the minutes would show, to cover the transgender
- community, which is what Tim had said and did do.
- So I had a small role to play in having that ordinance include--
- well, in fact, I had more than a small one.
- I'm the one that said--
- EVELYN BAILEY: You were the one.
- PAMELA BARRES: --it has to be and/or.
- And so that happened.
- And so then, I started going to ENJ Days.
- And I got to know Matt Foreman a little bit and other people.
- I'm not sure exactly how it came about.
- I got a call from Ross Levi, who was the lobby
- person in the program.
- What's the word?
- What the hell was Ross's title?
- Program manager wasn't quite the right word, public policy.
- And he asked me if I'd be interested in being
- on the board.
- And I guess I said yes, at least I'd explore it.
- So I got a phone--
- Sue and I were in Florida.
- And we sat there.
- And I was interviewed by phone and apparently said
- the right things.
- And so they asked me to be on the board.
- And I was.
- And so that was probably, I think, five years ago.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And then, SONDA passed.
- PAMELA BARRES: SONDA passed while I was Executive Director.
- And I know I was interviewed on the television, which
- is when a couple of people realized, some of my aunts
- realized, oh, I think we know that person.
- But that's a different name.
- He looks a little different.
- And in the paper, but I was interviewed
- for the news at night.
- And I remember saying that this is a great thing.
- But it doesn't cover all members of our community,
- that the transgender people are still not covered.
- And I don't know if I identified myself as transgendered.
- I don't think I did.
- I just was the Executive Director of the Gay Alliance.
- EVELYN BAILEY: That must have been in the transition period,
- though.
- Of you and Chuck.
- PAMELA BARRES: No, no, they had not hired Chuck yet.
- This happened in December is when
- it passed in a special session of the Senate.
- The Senate came back after the election,
- after Pataki won that election.
- Because the Empire State Pride Agenda
- had endorsed Pataki as opposed to the black gentleman who
- was running against him, who had been a controller,
- which upset an awful lot of people
- in the Democratic Party that were
- members of the gay community.
- But they had a deal with Pataki and Bruno.
- And that's what they did.
- And then, it happened.
- So that was in 2002.
- Yeah 2002.
- 2002?
- 2001?
- 2002.
- Yeah.
- And it went into effect January something of 2003.
- And at that point, that's about the time when they finally
- decided to hire Chuck.
- Because initially as I said, this
- was supposed to be like a three month job.
- But they couldn't find anybody.
- And I was getting very irritated with the board
- at that point, which seems to be what Executive Directors do
- with gay boards, no matter what the organization is.
- There's this antipathy that develops between the Executive
- Director and the boards.
- And I was getting like, who are these jerks?
- Why can't they find someone?
- How come they can't?
- And then, they would ask me to come down.
- Well, are you coming down as a member of the board?
- Because I was still kind of ex-official.
- Or are you coming down as Executive Director and this
- is a board thing?
- And we had some semi-hard mixed feelings.
- Yeah, so finally, he was at the Sweetheart Ball,
- which we do in February.
- That's when he was that's when he
- was introduced to the community as the new Executive Director.
- And I was extremely happy that we'd hired him.
- And he looked great.
- He looked really good.
- But we didn't firm that up until just
- before the Sweetheart Ball.
- And so up until then, it was kind of iffy.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And then, you stayed on the board of ESPA.
- PAMELA BARRES: I'm still on the board of ESPA.
- I'm on the board of ESPA Foundation,
- which is the 501(c)(3), and also on the board and an executive
- committee of the Inc. portion of the 501(c)(4),
- which is the group that lobbies.
- And the money for the dinner goes to the (c)(4).
- And it's used for lobbying purposes.
- Also part of that is the PAC, Political Action Group.
- And the Inc. board is also the PAC.
- I guess there's a couple people that aren't on it.
- But most of us are.
- And we're the ones that determine
- how much we're going to give this person or that person.
- So yeah, this is my second year in that capacity.
- And I think I have one more year to go as a board member.
- Because it's like the Gay Alliance, at least the way
- they Gay Alliance used to be, two, three year terms.
- And you have to be off for a bit.
- It's been a great experience.
- I have enjoyed being on the board of ESPA.
- I've met a lot of people I would not have met otherwise.
- And they have met and got more exposure to the trans community
- than they were getting otherwise.
- And I think I have made a definite impact.
- And my friend, Julie Owens, who's
- from Long Island, also a trans woman,
- she's a bit different to me.
- She works as a guy.
- And she's afraid to transition.
- And she just got married again to a woman.
- And so we're different.
- We're similar but different.
- And so they've seen--
- and Hawk Stone was on--
- Moonhawk River Stone, which I swear
- was a Native American name.
- Turns out, it has nothing to do with being a Native American.
- And so they've got a different-- he
- was a trans man that was on the board for a bit.
- So they're developing a much stronger understanding of what
- transgender is all about.
- And it is now our only legislative objective
- that we currently have is to pass the GENDA bill.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: That was my next question.
- PAMELA BARRES: And I am very, very--
- yeah, we've been run over by the marriage express way too
- many times.
- And you know, I'm great.
- I'm really happy, love marriage, great
- that marriage equality has passed.
- But it is being proven all the time is
- that it's somewhat symbolic to only have a state marriage.
- With DOMA in place, you really don't have the big benefit,
- which for a lot of people is social security, survivor
- benefits, and that.
- And so you know, passing GENDA is about life and death,
- to some degree, much more so than marriage equality was.
- Well, you can make some cases that, in some cases, it was.
- But overall, I think GENDA is more of a civil rights
- imperative than marriage is, not that I'm anti-marriage.
- EVELYN BAILEY: No.
- PAMELA BARRES: But we thought we should have come first.
- We should have.
- But it wasn't going to happen.
- I mean, once there was an inkling that you could
- pass marriage, let's face it.
- The majority of the community is not transgendered.
- And I don't know why, for whatever reason,
- everybody wants to get married, but a lot of people do.
- And so yeah, there was no-- and that was the sexy one.
- That was the one the press was interested in.
- And that got all the publicity and all the information.
- And you know, it was just like tire marks
- on and on the back of the trans community.
- But at the same time, we wanted to get out of the way.
- Because as long as that was there and that wasn't passed,
- you were never going to get around to doing GENDA.
- So now, we're around for trying to get GENDA.
- And of course, now, it's being coded as the Bathroom Bill.
- And then, if we pass this, oh yeah,
- the Republicans all know this as the Bathroom Bill.
- And the debates that they've had in the assembly,
- where they passed it five times now,
- the debates are just horrendous, that this
- is going to destroy Western civilization as we know it.
- I mean, we're going to traumatize
- all the little girls.
- And women are going to be raped by men in dresses,
- wearing wigs.
- If GENDA is passed, there'll be all these men swarming
- into all the ladies rooms.
- And they won't be able to be arrested.
- Because they can say it's their gender expression.
- That's fucking bullshit.
- And everybody knows that it is.
- But man, it's a really good argument.
- And it it's working.
- It's working.
- And we do not have the votes.
- Because we need Republican votes.
- And it would have been passed in '98-- excuse
- me, 2008, until the Senate blew up.
- I got a call from Tom Duane, who was
- the Senator that sponsored the bill in the Senate telling me--
- because we'd been-- we were pushing and pushing.
- Because we did counts.
- We were sure we had the votes.
- And we had a Democratic controlled Senate.
- Why couldn't it get-- well, they couldn't bring it to the floor.
- They couldn't bring it to the floor.
- And finally, in the very beginning of June,
- Tom Duane's office called me to tell me, Tom has heard you.
- He's bringing it to the floor.
- This week, it'll happen.
- Because he wouldn't have brought it to the floor
- if he didn't think it could pass either.
- I get home.
- I turn on my computer.
- And all hell is breaking loose in Albany.
- The Democrats are leaving the Democrats.
- They're moving to the Republicans, Espada
- and Padilla.
- And that was the end of it.
- And so we're close, but no cigar.
- Elisi would have been a vote.
- He told that me in many cases, and then some other people,
- too, privately that he would support.
- He won't publicly come out for it.
- But now, he's not going to run for re-election.
- The only chance we've got--
- I think we have a good shot at getting it in 2013.
- But this year, it's never going to happen before the election.
- It will not happen.
- And Mike Long, who's the head of the Conservative Party
- for the State of New York, has said this is now a litmus test.
- Anybody that publicly supports GENDA
- will not get the endorsement of the Conservative Party.
- So an awful lot of these Republicans, their winning
- margin is because of the people they
- pull on the Conservative Party.
- So I don't think Grisanti in Buffalo will--
- it's not going to happen.
- They're not going to let it up.
- They're not going to let it come for a vote, period,
- it's the end of it.
- So if we can have a special session, like the PASAN did,
- we have a shot.
- Because we still have Elisi.
- But if Sean Hannah gets elected, he has publicly--
- he's one of the ones who are talking about raping
- and pillaging in bathrooms.
- So I'm overstaying my time.
- That's where I am.
- Hi.
- EVELYN BAILEY: This is Pam Barres.
- Maria Scipione.
- MARIA SCIPIONE: Hi.
- Nice to meet you.
- PAMELA BARRES: Hi Maria, how are you?
- EVELYN BAILEY: (unintelligible).
- PAMELA BARRES: I've heard your name.
- I don't think we ever met, though.
- MARIA SCIPIONE: No, I don't think so.
- Can I have a seat?
- PAMELA BARRES: You certainly can.
- MARIA SCIPIONE: OK.
- PAMELA BARRES: So that's kind of, you know,
- that's where I am today.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: That's a good stopping point, actually,
- unless you have more questions.
- EVELYN BAILEY: I just wanted to ask you
- one other question about, if you were to look back--
- and I know you're still on the board of ESPA--
- if you were to look back at the past ten years,
- what are you most proud of?
- What are you most pleased, happy,
- excited about that you have contributed to this community?
- PAMELA BARRES: I think I've integrated trans people
- into this community, locally to some degree,
- and also on this on a state level to some degree.
- I mean, I have been a trans person
- that's been willing to stand up and be a GLBT activist, not
- just a trans activist.
- I don't consider myself a trans activist.
- I consider of myself a GLBT, gay activist, whatever
- phrase you want to use.
- I guess that's it.
- You know, just about ten years ago,
- when I was on the board of the Gay Alliance,
- they were redoing their bylaws.
- I'm the one that suggested they put the words transgender
- identity and expression, or transgender whatever it is,
- into the bylaws.
- And again, you know, maybe it would have happened eventually.
- But it happened when I asked for it.
- And I said, hey, since you're redoing these,
- why don't we become more inclusive
- and add this to it as well?
- So that was just about ten years ago that that happened.
- Excuse me.
- And I've worked very hard to try to get other people,
- trans people active.
- And you know, the gay community doesn't bite.
- That if we want their support, we
- have to give them our support.
- And we are really all part of this,
- the root cause of homophobia is really
- gender variant behavior, expressing your gender
- a little bit differently.
- And I think, for most straight people,
- there's nothing more gender variant
- than wanting to be involved with someone with the same genitals
- as yourself and finding those genitals attractive to you,
- however you do that.
- I think there's nothing more gender variant
- to a straight person than that.
- And so having people understand that protecting trans people
- is also protecting gay, and lesbian, and bi
- people as well, that this whole thing is not
- just about men in dresses, which it's not
- about men in dresses at all.
- But it's about protecting all of us
- to be able to be and express ourselves,
- the way we feel and want to do it,
- without fear of being discriminated against.
- So I think it's just awareness.
- I'm trying to be real.
- I don't have a lot of private agenda.
- What you see is what you get, pretty much.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I have one question.
- Maybe you can answer concisely in--
- PAMELA BARRES: Concise?
- Come on, come on.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I'm almost a little embarrassed.
- PAMELA BARRES: We've been talking for an hour now, Kevin.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I'm almost a little embarrassed to ask this.
- Because I should actually know it.
- PAMELA BARRES: Just ask.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: But can you define for us
- the difference between transvestite, transsexual,
- and transgender?
- PAMELA BARRES: Yeah, I can, I think, to a certain degree.
- First of all, as it's most commonly used but not
- exclusively, the word transgender
- is an umbrella term that is used to--
- and there's lots of different groups
- of people that fit under the term of transgender.
- So when we talk about transgender in its most
- common sense-- though, with younger people,
- it's changing a little bit-- but in its most common sense,
- it is all of these groups of gender variant people, that
- are expressing their gender differently
- than their sex they were born with, or identified
- with as birth by a doctor.
- Cross-dressers, or transvestites-- transvestite
- is not a term that's used very much anymore.
- Its kind of a medical term.
- And most transvestites don't want
- to be called transvestites.
- Cross-dresser is the much preferred term.
- These people-- and they're mostly all men.
- Because women have so much latitude
- in what you're wearing that, maybe a hundred years ago,
- that'd be cross dressing.
- But it's not today.
- So women have a lot more latitude.
- But it's mostly men that like to wear women's clothing some
- of the time, all of the time, but are very happy
- identifying as men.
- Very few of them want to do anything that would inhibit
- the function of their penis.
- They are men.
- They like being men.
- But some of the time, and mostly it's some of the time,
- not all the time, they like to dress up as women.
- Now, some people only wear women's clothes
- underneath their street clothes.
- And they only do this maybe in the privacy of their house.
- And there are some that like to dress up and go out.
- And some of them make very attractive things.
- They're different than drag queens.
- Because drag queens is a performance art, OK?
- And they may be different.
- But a lot of queens that maybe don't do a lot of performance
- but enjoy going out in drag and stuff like that
- are probably in their cross-dressing mode.
- There are gay cross-dressers.
- And there are straight cross-dressers.
- But at least with a heterosexual cross-dresser,
- it's much more of a-- the getting dressed
- and the going through the transformation
- is much more a solitary thing.
- And there may be a certain sexual excitement
- and connotation to it, as they're
- going through this process.
- Where a lot of gay guys and particularly drag queens,
- it's a kind of a communal thing.
- We're all getting dressed together in the same--
- so there's a little bit of difference there.
- But as it were, transsexuals are pretty comfortable,
- are pretty sure that they're born in the wrong gender,
- that I should have been a woman.
- I am a woman.
- This shorthand of being trapped in a man's body
- or being trapped in a woman's body when you're really a man
- is overly simplified.
- But there's a real strong kernel of truth to it
- also, which is probably why it's still hanging around.
- It's somewhat of a medical condition, a birth defect.
- I was born with the wrong genitalia.
- It doesn't match my brain.
- Deep in my heart, most transsexuals--
- heart, brain, whatever you want to say--
- know that they are something other than what
- they were identified as birth.
- And then, you get into the definition of what's a woman.
- What makes a woman?
- Do you have to have surgery to be a woman?
- I know an awful lot of trans men that have vaginas and don't
- have penises.
- But they also have full beards.
- And they're functioning every day very much so as men.
- And no one would say that they are not anything but men.
- There are trans women very much the same way.
- Surgery, for the most part, is not paid for by insurance.
- It's twenty thousand dollars, if you're going from--
- about twenty thousand dollars probably.