Audio Interview, Pat Collins and Judy Lawrence, October 31, 2011

JUDY LAWRENCE: --my background, and ours.

EVELYN BAILEY: You're on.

JUDY LAWRENCE: OK.

I was telling him, I got married, had a good marriage

until I found out that it wasn't as good as I thought.

My husband was out and about a bit.

But I had two wonderful little kids.

And so I divorced when they were one and two--

two and a half.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, that's tough.

JUDY LAWRENCE: And yeah, single parenting little one's is

rough.

And I had always thought I might be interested in women.

I had one almost affair in college

that was more emotional than anything else.

KEVIN INDOVINO: That would have been what fifties?

sixties?

JUDY LAWRENCE: It would be in the sixties yeah.

And I don't know.

So after I got divorced, I went out with men for a while.

Then I stopped dating anyone for a while.

And then I did a lot of thinking and decided

I was a lesbian, based on nothing, except I decided.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, there was something.

JUDY LAWRENCE: Well, there was something.

There was something, but no experience to back it up.

And in my own rather backward way,

I went and called all my straight female friends

and said, "Guess what?

I just decided I'm a lesbian."

And they, fortunately, all said, "Well, right on,

go explore it."

They were a bunch of Unitarians and Quaker's.

And so it was an easy coming out.

And it just happened that at that point,

my next door neighbor-- there were two women living

next door to me.

And they took me to-- they were introduced

to me by a mutual friend, and took me to a dance

where I met a woman I got together with for about a year.

And then--

KEVIN INDOVINO: Wait, about what year are we talking about?

JUDY LAWRENCE: OK.

What was that?

KEVIN INDOVINO: Roughly.

JUDY LAWRENCE: About '78 or '79?

'77.

'77.

PAT COLLINS: Oh, no, way before that. '70--

JUDY LAWRENCE: What's thirty-four--

what's 2011 minus thirty-four?

KEVIN INDOVINO: Oh, good lord.

Well, '81--

EVELYN BAILEY: '77.

KEVIN INDOVINO: '77, yeah.

JUDY LAWRENCE: Yeah, '77.

So after a year of that going nowhere relationship,

I ended up getting together with one of my two next door

neighbors, who was Pat.

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.

JUDY LAWRENCE: But during that year

or so that I was coming out, I first went to the gay--

well, there wasn't a Gay Alliance--

to the Gay Brotherhood, which also housed the Lesbian

Resource Center.

And it was--

EVELYN BAILEY: Then it wasn't '77.

JUDY LAWRENCE: It wasn't?

EVELYN BAILEY: Because by then--

JUDY LAWRENCE: Well, then it must

have been '74 or '75 when I was first exploring and coming out.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

JUDY LAWRENCE: Yeah, it was before I got together with Pat.

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.

So let's say roughly like-- we'll split the difference--

JUDY LAWRENCE: '75.

KEVIN INDOVINO: --'75.

Yeah.

JUDY LAWRENCE: Yeah, '75 might be good.

PAT COLLINS: I think it was '75, honey.

JUDY LAWRENCE: Yeah.

PAT COLLINS: '74.

JUDY LAWRENCE: You know, I really

found the alliance incredibly--

well, I found the Lesbian Resource Center incredibly

helpful in that I was excited about figuring out

was this who I was?

And for some reason, not particularly traumatized

by the thought.

And you know, they had resources, people to talk to,

weekly discussion groups, and I started going to those

and then ended up leading some of them.

And got on a number of panels where

we'd go out and talk to college groups,

largely, about what is it like to be a lesbian.

And at that time, I was a lesbian mother.

So lesbian mothers were somewhat more unique than lesbians.

And people would say, "What's it like being a lesbian mother?"

And I said, "Well, kids wake me up

about five thirty, six o'clock in the morning.

I change their diapers, get them dressed, and get some cereal."

And she says, "No, no.

What's it like being a lesbian mother?"

I said, "Same thing as being a mother."

You know.

Lesbian isn't the way I live every moment of my life.

And they were always quite astounded at that.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Let me take you back just a little bit.

JUDY LAWRENCE: Sure.

KEVIN INDOVINO: When you were searching

for places or information and you eventually

came upon the Women's Resource Center--

Lesbian Resource Center, I mean, what

was in the Rochester community at the time?

What were you hearing?

How difficult was it to find a group or person to talk to?

I mean, aside from your neighbors.

JUDY LAWRENCE: It was difficult. It was difficult.

I had two friends.

I was in grad school at the time and Peggy Meeker

and (unintelligible) were--

I got to know Peggy through a class

we were both taking at U of R.

I think she and (unintelligible) were

the ones who told me about the Lesbian Resource Center.

And that there was a young woman--

I was then in my thirties, early thirties as a college student.

And there was an undergrad student,

who was in her twenties, early twenties, Terry--

do you remember Terry's last name?

Pat?

PAT COLLINS: Unh-uh.

JUDY LAWRENCE: No.

I can't think of it right now.

She was involved with the student groups--

student-led LGBT-- I guess it was only LG back then--

group at U of R, which I never got

involved with because it was a bunch of kids.

And I was running between part-time jobs, college,

and parenting.

But she and I would ride over to the Lesbian Resource Center

discussions together.

And it was-- you know, having already

met a few people who were relatively out lesbians helped

me a lot to find resources.

Other than that, there wasn't anything.

I guess-- was the Empty Closet going back then?

EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.

PAT COLLINS: Yes, but you're remembrance of things

is very different from mine.

JUDY LAWRENCE: Well, of course.

PAT COLLINS: I don't even know how you went to the Lesbian

Resource Center because when I got here in '73,

it was a closet.

And it wasn't any bigger than that.

And it had some books in it and a diesel dyke,

and her girlfriend, and Patti Evans running it.

Patti Evans was wonderful and the diesel dyke was scary

as hell and ran everybody off.

EVELYN BAILEY: Now, where was this?

PAT COLLINS: That was over the--

you know where you could--

JUDY LAWRENCE: It was the Genesee Co-op.

PAT COLLINS: Yeah, Genesee Co-op.

JUDY LAWRENCE: The building on Monroe Avenue.

PAT COLLINS: Yeah, Monroe Avenue.

Over at the Genesee Co-op, there was a little--

and you had to get there by going up the back of--

JUDY LAWRENCE: Down an alley between two buildings.

PAT COLLINS: Well, OK.

It was--

JUDY LAWRENCE: And past a dumpster.

PAT COLLINS: Past the garbage cans and up the stairs.

There was the Gay Brotherhood, which was a small building--

I mean, small room, but at least as big as this part.

And then, I think you went-- or else--

I think that's how you got to the Gay Brotherhood.

I think you got to the Lesbian Research Center

by going into the--

help me-- what's the name of the place?

The--

JUDY LAWRENCE: The Genesee Co-op.

PAT COLLINS: Genesee Co-op.

I think that was a staircase at that time.

The call-- the credit union was on the left.

And on the right, there was a tiny little closet type

space called the Lesbian Resource Center.

And I was determined to not have this lesbian diesel dyke scare

everybody away because I had never seen anything like that

before.

I was thrilled to be in Rochester

and I wanted to see what we could do.

So go ahead Judy.

You finish and then I'll come back.

JUDY LAWRENCE: Well, at some point--

EVELYN BAILEY: Can I just ask--

Oh, yes.

Was there--

(doorbell rings)

KEVIN INDOVINO: Trick-or-treater.

JUDY LAWRENCE: Trick-or-treater.

PAT COLLINS: I'll turn the lights off so we don't--

JUDY LAWRENCE: Well, we can't, really.

We've got--

KEVIN INDOVINO: It's not going to interrupt anything.

EVELYN BAILEY: Was there anything

at the U of R still going on?

JUDY LAWRENCE: Yes, it was when I got involved.

So let's see, if I--

I got separated from my ex-husband in '74.

So this would have been '75.

'75-- yeah.

And by that time, there was one room in the Gay Brotherhood.

So they had this small meeting room.

And the gay-- and the Lesbian Resource Center

would use that small meeting room.

So it was after Pat had already helped

bring the lesbian brotherhood and the--

lesbian-- the Gay Brotherhood and the lesbian--

PAT COLLINS: Hello little spooks.

JUDY LAWRENCE: --lesbian groups together.

PAT COLLINS: You are my first little spooks.

(unintelligible).

JUDY LAWRENCE: And they were in one place.

And that's how you'd call, at that point.

TRICK OR TREATER: Do you have scissors?

JUDY LAWRENCE: Although, this is--

PAT COLLINS: I should be using scissors.

They say don't (unintelligible)--

JUDY LAWRENCE: --and there was a little room

off of the Gay Brotherhood's room that was the Lesbian

Resource Center.

And there was a library.

And the books, which you couldn't

get at the run-down library.

They had a lot of books.

And up until that time, I had not seen anything, practically,

in lesbian literature.

KEVIN INDOVINO: (unintelligible).

PAT COLLINS: Have fun!

EVELYN BAILEY: I forgot this was Halloween.

KEVIN INDOVINO: No books at run-down--

JUDY LAWRENCE: No.

No, nothing that you could get your hands on.

KEVIN INDOVINO: As far as the Lesbian Resource Center goes,

and the Gay Brotherhood--

I mean, in that time, the mid-1970s were--

it doesn't seem to me like they were very visible

in the community.

It was more kind of a word of mouth to find them.

JUDY LAWRENCE: Absolutely.

PAT COLLINS: Oh, yeah.

JUDY LAWRENCE: Absolutely.

KEVIN INDOVINO: I mean, how did that--

you know, because I came out when everything was out there.

You know, you didn't have to look

too hard to find something.

Talk to me a little bit more about the challenges of really

trying to find yourselves.

JUDY LAWRENCE: Well, I don't know

where I would have-- how I would have

looked if Peggy and (unintelligible)

hadn't been there.

You know, they were--

(unintelligible) was an older lesbian.

Peggy was younger.

EVELYN BAILEY: Where did you meet

Peggy and (unintelligible)?

JUDY LAWRENCE: Peggy and I took classes together.

Peggy was also working full time--

EVELYN BAILEY: At the U of R.

JUDY LAWRENCE: --but in grad school.

We took several night school courses together.

But back then, Pat actually got involved earlier

than I did, here, in Rochester.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, Pat, let's talk about you a little bit.

JUDY LAWRENCE: Yeah, I think she really--

had a more normal experience in this.

I was really guided by several other people.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.

PAT COLLINS: Yeah.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Rochester native, or--

PAT COLLINS: No.

I'm from West Virginia.

And I couldn't have been more repressed down there.

It was absolutely horrible.

I went to a bar--

I finally found out a bar where you knock on the door.

You had a code name that you said.

You paid five dollars to join.

And then you got to go, and knock on the door,

and go in, and buy drinks, and be

where other lesbians and gay men were.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Roughly what time--

what year are we talking about?

PAT COLLINS: '67 and '68.

And the mystery of it all was fun, but the people that I met

were not my peers.

And so it was not a good scene at all.

In fact, there were lots of stories

I could tell you about that, but that's not

what we're here to talk about.

I was in Rochester visiting a friend,

and I saw two women holding hands.

And I thought, my god, this is the city I should come move to.

And so it turned out, as fate would have it,

that I was at a convention--

a camping convention.

Met a woman from Rochester who said

there was a job opening as full-time camp director of Camp

Onanda with the YWCA here.

And so I jumped at it.

And low and behold, I got it.

And here I was.

I don't know how I learned about the Gay Alliance,

but I was determined to find out something about gay something

because I knew something was here.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So you came to Rochester-- what-- then

after 1971-- '72.

PAT COLLINS: I came to Rochester in--

'71, '72, '73-- '73.

KEVIN INDOVINO: '73.

OK.

PAT COLLINS: And that's when I found

what I described with just the-- not Lesbian Resource Center.

Patti Evans and I said, look, something's got to--

EVELYN BAILEY: How did you meet Patti Evans?

PAT COLLINS: She was at the Lesbian Resource Center.

I think I must have--

maybe they had a phone and I looked it up in the phone.

Maybe I found the newspaper--

you know, the Empty Closet.

I don't know how I got there.

But I was thrilled when I was there,

even though the circumstances weren't that good.

And I decided that I would--

this was going to be where I was going to hang out.

And so I talked to Patti and I said,

let's go talk to the Gay Brotherhood

and see if the Lesbian Resource Center can meet,

you know, once a week at their spot,

for free because we don't have any space.

And so we started meeting there.

And then I met Tim.

I met John Noble.

EVELYN BAILEY: Tim?

PAT COLLINS: Mains.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Tim Mains.

EVELYN BAILEY: Tim Mains.

PAT COLLINS: John Noble.

EVELYN BAILEY: Michael Robertson.

PAT COLLINS: Michael Robertson.

EVELYN BAILEY: Whitey?

PAT COLLINS: Whitey came just a tad later, but yeah,

very shortly after that.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Now, just to clarify for me,

they were with the Gay Brotherhood,

not with the Gay Alliance?

PAT COLLINS: They were with the Gay Brotherhood.

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.

So we're not even to the Gay Alliance yet?

PAT COLLINS: No.

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.

PAT COLLINS: And that's when John and I wrote a grant

to get CETA to give us a grant for a part-time staff person

to give us a staff person.

And that's when we started forming the Gay Alliance-- was

my understanding.

Now, I understand that I'm not right about that.

But this was 1974 or '73.

What do you think?

EVELYN BAILEY: The CETA grant was written in 1977.

PAT COLLINS: OK, then.

JUDY LAWRENCE: Yeah, I remember that.

PAT COLLINS: All right, then, I thought it was later.

So I had been active with the Gay Alliance since--

with the Lesbian Resource Center since

I got into town at '73 or '74.

EVELYN BAILEY: The Lesbian Resource Center and the Gay

Brotherhood were both at the Genesee Co-op.

PAT COLLINS: Right.

Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: But they were not one organization.

PAT COLLINS: Right.

EVELYN BAILEY: They were two organizations.

PAT COLLINS: That's right.

And I wanted them to be together.

EVELYN BAILEY: And in '74, they combined

to form one organization.

PAT COLLINS: Right.

And I thought I was part of that effort.

But I understand I wasn't.

I mean, I understand other people

are saying that they were involved with that.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So just for my own clarification, was it,

then, the Gay Brotherhood and the Lesbian Resource

Center that came together to form the Gay Alliance?

EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.

PAT COLLINS: Yes, that's my understanding.

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.

Because I was thinking the Gay Alliance

was started with the Liberation Front at the U of R

and moved over to the Co-op to join these guys.

EVELYN BAILEY: It started at the U of R

with the Gay Liberation Front.

But the women at the U of R were always at odds with the men

because the men's issues were not the same as lesbian issues.

And so when the Gay Liberation got moved off campus,

the Gay Liberation Front went to 812 Brown Street.

And Mark Howe was the owner of the business

into whose back room, garage they moved.

In 1973, they went--

the Gay Brotherhood went to the Co-op

because there was no heat in that garage.

There was-- it was nothing in the back of the garage.

PAT COLLINS: Gotcha.

OK.

EVELYN BAILEY: And they had not really found a place.

I mean, their exit from the U of R was very quick.

It was not-- it was not a long-term, transition.

PAT COLLINS: Wow.

OK.

Alright.

EVELYN BAILEY: So they went to 812 Brown Street.

And the women were at the Lesbian Resource

Center at the Genesee Co-op.

PAT COLLINS: At the Co-op. so they got that little space.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So the Liberation Front,

when they left U of R, kind of split.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So the men went to Brown Street,

the women went to the Co-op, and then

eventually they came back together.

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

Because the women had--

they didn't have a lot of space, but the space they had--

KEVIN INDOVINO: They had heat.

EVELYN BAILEY: --was heated.

Exactly.

PAT COLLINS: It was at least heated.

Right.

EVELYN BAILEY: And the men--

and the Lesbian Resource Center didn't have money,

didn't have financial resources.

KEVIN INDOVINO: And the men did.

EVELYN BAILEY: The men did.

PAT COLLINS: That's right.

EVELYN BAILEY: So they came to the Co-op to join the women.

And then, in 1974, in December--

actually, December '73, I think was,

the alliance was incorporated.

PAT COLLINS: OK.

EVELYN BAILEY: And that began the Gay Alliance of the Genesee

Valley, with those two groups.

So but it was very blurry.

I mean, it was--

it was not clearly--

PAT COLLINS: Well, I came to Rochester in '73.

So I think I was either part of that,

or right on the fringe of it, or wanting it to happen but still

learning because I was the one, I know,

with Patti or somebody who went to the Gay Brotherhood

and said, come on, let's--

can we please use your space?

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

PAT COLLINS: But I might have done

that, not even knowing about this other thing going on

at all.

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

PAT COLLINS: Or the history, you know,

of what the Liberation Front was about

because I don't remember knowing about that.

I do remember, later on, that U of R or one of the college

groups joined the Gay Alliance.

That was this third group to join, or to be affiliated.

EVELYN BAILEY: Well, the University of Rochester

group became, I believe, the Academic Union at that point.

And then it changed its name again.

But in the early days, there were just those two groups--

PAT COLLINS: Well, anyway, those were those two groups.

EVELYN BAILEY: And then there came--

PAT COLLINS: (unintelligible).

EVELYN BAILEY: --the political caucus.

PAT COLLINS: Yes, that was aside.

It had to be aside because it couldn't

be part of the non-profit.

And that's where Bob came in and he did the work on that.

EVELYN BAILEY: Bob Crystal?

PAT COLLINS: No.

JUDY LAWRENCE: Sweeney?

PAT COLLINS: No.

EVELYN BAILEY: Bob Sweeney?

PAT COLLINS: No.

Bob Sweeney and Bob Crystal were there but then--

probably got the wrong name.

EVELYN BAILEY: Bob Osborn?

PAT COLLINS: Nope.

It's escaped me, but he and his partner--

he married Don.

JUDY LAWRENCE: He married Don--

Is that Don--

EVELYN BAILEY: Oh, Jim Ide?

PAT COLLINS: Jim Ide!

Thank you.

Jim was the one that was mostly the one that

was helping make that happen, at the beginning, that I remember.

But anyway--

EVELYN BAILEY: But you and John Noble wrote the CETA grant--

PAT COLLINS: That's right.

EVELYN BAILEY: --the first CETA grant.

PAT COLLINS: That's right.

EVELYN BAILEY: And Bob Sweeney was vice president, I think,

or president of the Alliance at the time.

And Michael Robertson was president.

PAT COLLINS: Nope.

Michael Robertson and I were co-presidents together and--

EVELYN BAILEY: In '77?

PAT COLLINS: And-- whenever.

I think we were--

I thought we were the second presidents.

And I don't know who was the first, but it--

EVELYN BAILEY: Whitey LeBlanc.

PAT COLLINS: Whitey LeBlanc.

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.

So it was, by that time, known as the Gay Alliance, though?

EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.

PAT COLLINS: Yeah, it had been-- gotten that name by that time.

OK.

The first president was Whitey.

Who was the second?

Bob--

EVELYN BAILEY: Michel Robertson.

PAT COLLINS: OK.

Then, that's me and Michael, then.

That's what I remember.

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

PAT COLLINS: OK.

Alright.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Let's go back to CETA funding.

PAT COLLINS: OK.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Because that seems

to be a part of this story.

PAT COLLINS: Yes.

What I felt and all of us, as a group--

board-- I don't know what we were called--

was that we felt--

you know, we had a lot going by then.

I think we had started, or we had

talked about having a speakers bureau,

peer counseling, programming.

You know, the Gay Brotherhood did their programming.

The Lesbian Resource Center--

I was helping make that happen with discussions and things

like that, and other--

I mean, other women were helping--

Mary Lou Wale-- Whyle--

EVELYN BAILEY: Wells

PAT COLLINS: --Wells was getting a library together.

I think that's all I can think of, right now.

EVELYN BAILEY: Karen Hagberg?

PAT COLLINS: I did not know Karen very well.

I think she was working on--

in some other areas.

She-- I didn't see much of her ever.

EVELYN BAILEY: Marge David?

PAT COLLINS: Yeah, Marge.

I remember Marge.

And she would come to some meetings.

Maybe a lot of them, I don't remember.

She was working at Cheesy Eddie's.

But anyway, I was thrilled to be involved with all of this

because I had been fired from my job

in York, Pennsylvania, which is where I had gone to after I

got my Master's Degree.

I had worked for the Girl Scouts,

first, which, of course, was very dangerous as a lesbian.

Then, at the-- I had already accepted the job in Rochester.

So they really couldn't fire me, per se.

But they found out probably three days

before I was to leave my job that I was a lesbian.

I was working at their camp there as director.

And they asked me to leave and not--

and if I left for two days, I could come back

at the closing camp fire.

You know, like-- you know, fuck you, lady.

But anyway, I did not have enough self-esteem,

at the time, to sue them because the YWCA, nationally, had just

said that you could not discriminate against lesbians

on your staff.

And I should've done it, but I didn't.

I had a job coming with the Y up here.

And so I just didn't want to--

you know, I was--

I was young.

What did I know?

I was twenty-six.

So then, I thought it was wonderful what was happening.

You know, we were growing.

I was on the speakers bureau.

I was a peer counselor.

Mary Lou Wells, I think, was a social worker--

MSW.

And she was the one that was training peer counselors to do

a good job as a peer counselor.

And then we hired this--

we needed Phil.

I mean, we knew we needed someone

to help coordinate all of this, and someone to be there

all the time, or as much as the time as he could,

for office hours, so to speak.

To just be there so that our doors would be open.

And that's why we wrote the CETA grant.

EVELYN BAILEY: Does Joan Guiffre ring any bells?

PAT COLLINS: Um-hm.

I can't place her right now.

EVELYN BAILEY: OK.

JUDY LAWRENCE: Was she a large woman?

Tall and-- not--

EVELYN BAILEY: At the time.

JUDY LAWRENCE: Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

JUDY LAWRENCE: Just big, I mean--

yeah.

I think I know who Joan Guiffre was.

PAT COLLINS: I just can't place her right now,

but-- if I just saw a picture of her, I'm sure I would.

I'm real good at faces.

EVELYN BAILEY: Pam Barrale.

PAT COLLINS: That's a name I remember,

but I'd have to see the face.

But every night after work, I'd go home, have a TV dinner,

and down to the Lesbian Resource Center I would go.

And then I'd work there until we were all exhausted.

And then we'd go to the Riverview--

I mean the boys--

the boys would go to their place,

and I'd go to the Riverview.

And the Riverview was just like Cheers

you see on television because you walk in,

you know everybody there.

And you play some pool and have some drinks.

And then you go home at one o'clock.

And do it all over again.

But I just loved what I was doing.

KEVIN INDOVINO: What was it about getting involved all

of that-- with that that drew that passion out of you?

PAT COLLINS: OK.

To understand my passion from that,

you have to understand how I grew up.

My father was a Methodist minister.

My grandfather was a Methodist minister.

And aunts and uncles either married or were ministers.

And they-- when I told my parents I was gay,

they were horrified and thought it was the worst possible thing

that I could be.

They also were horrified at what other people would

think of them.

JUDY LAWRENCE: Afraid your dad would

lose his job as a minister, that he'd be fired because of it.

PAT COLLINS: They--

I had always been a parent pleaser,

so this was extremely horrifying to me

because I wanted their acceptance.

And so I had to be--

I had to hide.

And I loved girl scouting and I went

into that as a professional Girl Scout,

out of undergraduate work--

I mean, school.

And you know, that couldn't have been

the worst thing in the world that I could have done,

but I loved it.

So it was perfect for me.

And then I found out, just as I was about to go to grad school,

that half the staff there were gay and I didn't even know it.

But--

EVELYN BAILEY: How did you find out?

PAT COLLINS: Well, I got drunk one night

with one of the women who was on the staff who

invited this other woman over.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Isn't that the way it always happens?

PAT COLLINS: And the two of us got drunk.

The woman who was hostess of the dinner got so drunk,

she went to bed.

And so I finally told Charlotte that I

was gay, and miserable, and blah, blah, blah.

And she says, "Well, honey, I am too."

And she presented herself to make love to me.

And we became lovers.

So that was very nice until I realized

that she was not monogamous and that just blew me away

because I couldn't imagine not being monogamous.

But you know, I was ready to marry anybody

I found when I was that young.

All I wanted was to find someone to marry and settle down.

My goals in life were to have a career I believed in,

a closeness with my spirit power,

and a woman to be with and have a family.

Those were my goals.

And I was thrilled to find the gay alliance because I had--

all through college, I couldn't find a lesbian woman.

Through undergrad-- you know, so college who was miserable.

In high school-- my senior year in high school,

I fell in love with my best friend.

And one thing, when I was--

I double dated this little greasy faced guy

just so I could be with her.

So after they left and I had endured that--

the boys left.

One night, Johnny Mathis was playing.

The fireplace was on.

We were at her house.

She sat down in a rocking chair.

And I went over to her and came close to her face.

And she went back further.

And I came close to her face.

She went back further and, you know,

she went over in the chair.

I was trying to kiss her and I just--

I don't know what I bumbled through and made up some story.

But that didn't work.

I chose a straight woman and that was a bad choice.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, we've all been there, too.

PAT COLLINS: She didn't much talk about me anymore.

I mean, talk with me anymore.

But it was coming from where you had to hide.

It was coming where it was shameful.

I told you about the bar scene that I finally

found in Rochester, which was a negative thing to do.

I found, when I moved to York, Pennsylvania,

there wasn't any bar scenes there.

That was a small little town.

But there was one place where, once a year,

they had a big party.

Somebody threw a huge thing and I met some women there.

And then I found the little network

of small group of women that were there.

Again, not my peers.

So when I came to Rochester, I met

some women who were my peers, and men as well.

EVELYN BAILEY: But you liked the Riverview?

PAT COLLINS: Oh yeah, I loved the Riverview.

There was-- because that's where all of the people

that were connected with the Gay Alliance in one way or another.

Or I met them there and, you know,

rallied them to the cause.

I was always gathering volunteers.

You know, we'd sit and talk, and play pool, and dance.

And of course, if I didn't have a partner at the time,

I was there to try and pick up a woman.

But sort of not-- sort of so--

hoping for-- you know, that kind of stuff.

And I did date several different women.

And it just didn't work out.

JUDY LAWRENCE: Several?

PAT COLLINS: A lot of women.

JUDY LAWRENCE: Most of the Rochester's lesbian community

back then, or so I've since heard.

PAT COLLINS: Well, it wasn't as bad as Patti Evans.

She introduced every lesbian that moved here to--

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.

We're recording this, remember.

JUDY LAWRENCE: Yes, yes.

PAT COLLINS: Oh, I forgot.

Well, I love Patti Evans and I want her belt

to (unintelligible) too.

So what can I say?

EVELYN BAILEY: Talk a little bit about the women

who you met, in terms of profession, in terms of--

were they professional?

Were they--

PAT COLLINS: Well, I felt empowered by working

at the-- volunteering at the Gay Alliance.

It made me stronger.

It made me less homophobic myself.

It made me proud to be who I was.

If we had-- there was also the NOW, and Women's Pride,

and all of that kind of thing was going on.

And I was involved with that, as well.

And at work, where I was, one woman at a staff meeting

once turned to me and she said, "Are you married?"

I said "Yes."

And she said, "Well, who's your husband?"

And I said, "Well what makes you think he's a man?"

And I don't know how that flew out of my mouth, but it did.

I must have felt safe enough with this woman.

And she and I are still good friends today.

And so I did have this one person that was close to me.

But then, I went to the Unitarian Church

and found acceptance there.

And so I got feeling better, but I was still very closeted

at the different not for profit organizations

I worked at, which were the--

well, the Y, the Arthritis Foundation,

and the Easter Seal's Society.

I got fired from that one for being gay.

Well, and the Arthritis Foundation, too.

I was just getting too open.

And the Y here, eventually, because I was getting too open.

I was having workshops for lesbians on how

to improve their relationships.

I was having workshops on how to--

on lesbian mothers and things to do.

And I was just--

I was program director, so I thought well this--

I can just go for it.

And, so.

JUDY LAWRENCE: What you were looking for, I think, Evelyn,

a while back, was the others around at that time.

And this probably isn't politically correct to say it,

but a lot of them, I think, were people

who didn't have a lot to lose by being open.

To which I mean that they may have already lost

their families or not, or their families were far away.

But they weren't always looking over

their shoulder, afraid that the families were

going to find out.

And they weren't in professional positions

somewhere, where they had spent a lot of time

getting where they were, and trying

to build their career in whatever direction it was.

So that there were a lot of hard-working,

some top-notch people, but not people

who were moving with the same goals

as some of us who were out of college and building,

you know, more of professional level careers,

or in college, you know.

PAT COLLINS: That was true of the women, yes.

But the men were professional men.

And they just took it on to be active.

JUDY LAWRENCE: Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: Were out?

Do you know?

PAT COLLINS: Well, I don't know.

Bob Sweeney?

Was he out?

I don't know.

Jim Ide?

I don't know.

EVELYN BAILEY: I don't know.

PAT COLLINS: I don't think so.

I don't think John Noble was.

Tim Mains?

No.

He was one of the first, I think,

to come out at the school where he was a counselor.

But I don't think most of us, at the beginning,

that were professionals, who knew we'd be fired.

Now, one thing that happened at the Gay Alliance

when I was president was they wanted--

one of the TV stations came and wanted to interview me.

And I said, fine, but I'll lose my job

If you take a picture of my face.

So I even took my rings off.

And I had them take a picture of me from behind, as we talked

and I was interviewed.

And I walked into work the next day, and they say,

I saw you on TV.

And I was too naive to have them go over my voice

and my West Virginia accent gave me away.

JUDY LAWRENCE: It was much worse back then.

PAT COLLINS: Yeah.

So you know, that started the downfall of my working there.

JUDY LAWRENCE: Yeah.

I think there's a--

what you're hearing a lot is the difference

between the sixties and the seventies,

and the North and the South.

You know, when I came out in the seventies, being gay

wasn't talked about.

You never read the word in the newspaper.

It was before Ellen or any of those other--

PAT COLLINS: Oh, lord.

Yes.

JUDY LAWRENCE: --sitcoms came in with anyone talk--