Audio Interview, Pat Collins and Judy Lawrence, October 31, 2011
- JUDY LAWRENCE: --my background, and ours.
- EVELYN BAILEY: You're on.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: OK.
- I was telling him, I got married, had a good marriage
- until I found out that it wasn't as good as I thought.
- My husband was out and about a bit.
- But I had two wonderful little kids.
- And so I divorced when they were one and two--
- two and a half.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, that's tough.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: And yeah, single parenting little one's is
- rough.
- And I had always thought I might be interested in women.
- I had one almost affair in college
- that was more emotional than anything else.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: That would have been what fifties?
- sixties?
- JUDY LAWRENCE: It would be in the sixties yeah.
- And I don't know.
- So after I got divorced, I went out with men for a while.
- Then I stopped dating anyone for a while.
- And then I did a lot of thinking and decided
- I was a lesbian, based on nothing, except I decided.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, there was something.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Well, there was something.
- There was something, but no experience to back it up.
- And in my own rather backward way,
- I went and called all my straight female friends
- and said, "Guess what?
- I just decided I'm a lesbian."
- And they, fortunately, all said, "Well, right on,
- go explore it."
- They were a bunch of Unitarians and Quaker's.
- And so it was an easy coming out.
- And it just happened that at that point,
- my next door neighbor-- there were two women living
- next door to me.
- And they took me to-- they were introduced
- to me by a mutual friend, and took me to a dance
- where I met a woman I got together with for about a year.
- And then--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Wait, about what year are we talking about?
- JUDY LAWRENCE: OK.
- What was that?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Roughly.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: About '78 or '79?
- '77.
- '77.
- PAT COLLINS: Oh, no, way before that. '70--
- JUDY LAWRENCE: What's thirty-four--
- what's 2011 minus thirty-four?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Oh, good lord.
- Well, '81--
- EVELYN BAILEY: '77.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: '77, yeah.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Yeah, '77.
- So after a year of that going nowhere relationship,
- I ended up getting together with one of my two next door
- neighbors, who was Pat.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: But during that year
- or so that I was coming out, I first went to the gay--
- well, there wasn't a Gay Alliance--
- to the Gay Brotherhood, which also housed the Lesbian
- Resource Center.
- And it was--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Then it wasn't '77.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: It wasn't?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Because by then--
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Well, then it must
- have been '74 or '75 when I was first exploring and coming out.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Yeah, it was before I got together with Pat.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
- So let's say roughly like-- we'll split the difference--
- JUDY LAWRENCE: '75.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: --'75.
- Yeah.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Yeah, '75 might be good.
- PAT COLLINS: I think it was '75, honey.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Yeah.
- PAT COLLINS: '74.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: You know, I really
- found the alliance incredibly--
- well, I found the Lesbian Resource Center incredibly
- helpful in that I was excited about figuring out
- was this who I was?
- And for some reason, not particularly traumatized
- by the thought.
- And you know, they had resources, people to talk to,
- weekly discussion groups, and I started going to those
- and then ended up leading some of them.
- And got on a number of panels where
- we'd go out and talk to college groups,
- largely, about what is it like to be a lesbian.
- And at that time, I was a lesbian mother.
- So lesbian mothers were somewhat more unique than lesbians.
- And people would say, "What's it like being a lesbian mother?"
- And I said, "Well, kids wake me up
- about five thirty, six o'clock in the morning.
- I change their diapers, get them dressed, and get some cereal."
- And she says, "No, no.
- What's it like being a lesbian mother?"
- I said, "Same thing as being a mother."
- You know.
- Lesbian isn't the way I live every moment of my life.
- And they were always quite astounded at that.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Let me take you back just a little bit.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Sure.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: When you were searching
- for places or information and you eventually
- came upon the Women's Resource Center--
- Lesbian Resource Center, I mean, what
- was in the Rochester community at the time?
- What were you hearing?
- How difficult was it to find a group or person to talk to?
- I mean, aside from your neighbors.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: It was difficult. It was difficult.
- I had two friends.
- I was in grad school at the time and Peggy Meeker
- and (unintelligible) were--
- I got to know Peggy through a class
- we were both taking at U of R.
- I think she and (unintelligible) were
- the ones who told me about the Lesbian Resource Center.
- And that there was a young woman--
- I was then in my thirties, early thirties as a college student.
- And there was an undergrad student,
- who was in her twenties, early twenties, Terry--
- do you remember Terry's last name?
- Pat?
- PAT COLLINS: Unh-uh.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: No.
- I can't think of it right now.
- She was involved with the student groups--
- student-led LGBT-- I guess it was only LG back then--
- group at U of R, which I never got
- involved with because it was a bunch of kids.
- And I was running between part-time jobs, college,
- and parenting.
- But she and I would ride over to the Lesbian Resource Center
- discussions together.
- And it was-- you know, having already
- met a few people who were relatively out lesbians helped
- me a lot to find resources.
- Other than that, there wasn't anything.
- I guess-- was the Empty Closet going back then?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
- PAT COLLINS: Yes, but you're remembrance of things
- is very different from mine.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Well, of course.
- PAT COLLINS: I don't even know how you went to the Lesbian
- Resource Center because when I got here in '73,
- it was a closet.
- And it wasn't any bigger than that.
- And it had some books in it and a diesel dyke,
- and her girlfriend, and Patti Evans running it.
- Patti Evans was wonderful and the diesel dyke was scary
- as hell and ran everybody off.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Now, where was this?
- PAT COLLINS: That was over the--
- you know where you could--
- JUDY LAWRENCE: It was the Genesee Co-op.
- PAT COLLINS: Yeah, Genesee Co-op.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: The building on Monroe Avenue.
- PAT COLLINS: Yeah, Monroe Avenue.
- Over at the Genesee Co-op, there was a little--
- and you had to get there by going up the back of--
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Down an alley between two buildings.
- PAT COLLINS: Well, OK.
- It was--
- JUDY LAWRENCE: And past a dumpster.
- PAT COLLINS: Past the garbage cans and up the stairs.
- There was the Gay Brotherhood, which was a small building--
- I mean, small room, but at least as big as this part.
- And then, I think you went-- or else--
- I think that's how you got to the Gay Brotherhood.
- I think you got to the Lesbian Research Center
- by going into the--
- help me-- what's the name of the place?
- The--
- JUDY LAWRENCE: The Genesee Co-op.
- PAT COLLINS: Genesee Co-op.
- I think that was a staircase at that time.
- The call-- the credit union was on the left.
- And on the right, there was a tiny little closet type
- space called the Lesbian Resource Center.
- And I was determined to not have this lesbian diesel dyke scare
- everybody away because I had never seen anything like that
- before.
- I was thrilled to be in Rochester
- and I wanted to see what we could do.
- So go ahead Judy.
- You finish and then I'll come back.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Well, at some point--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Can I just ask--
- Oh, yes.
- Was there--
- (doorbell rings)
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Trick-or-treater.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Trick-or-treater.
- PAT COLLINS: I'll turn the lights off so we don't--
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Well, we can't, really.
- We've got--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: It's not going to interrupt anything.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Was there anything
- at the U of R still going on?
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Yes, it was when I got involved.
- So let's see, if I--
- I got separated from my ex-husband in '74.
- So this would have been '75.
- '75-- yeah.
- And by that time, there was one room in the Gay Brotherhood.
- So they had this small meeting room.
- And the gay-- and the Lesbian Resource Center
- would use that small meeting room.
- So it was after Pat had already helped
- bring the lesbian brotherhood and the--
- lesbian-- the Gay Brotherhood and the lesbian--
- PAT COLLINS: Hello little spooks.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: --lesbian groups together.
- PAT COLLINS: You are my first little spooks.
- (unintelligible).
- JUDY LAWRENCE: And they were in one place.
- And that's how you'd call, at that point.
- TRICK OR TREATER: Do you have scissors?
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Although, this is--
- PAT COLLINS: I should be using scissors.
- They say don't (unintelligible)--
- JUDY LAWRENCE: --and there was a little room
- off of the Gay Brotherhood's room that was the Lesbian
- Resource Center.
- And there was a library.
- And the books, which you couldn't
- get at the run-down library.
- They had a lot of books.
- And up until that time, I had not seen anything, practically,
- in lesbian literature.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: (unintelligible).
- PAT COLLINS: Have fun!
- EVELYN BAILEY: I forgot this was Halloween.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: No books at run-down--
- JUDY LAWRENCE: No.
- No, nothing that you could get your hands on.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: As far as the Lesbian Resource Center goes,
- and the Gay Brotherhood--
- I mean, in that time, the mid-1970s were--
- it doesn't seem to me like they were very visible
- in the community.
- It was more kind of a word of mouth to find them.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Absolutely.
- PAT COLLINS: Oh, yeah.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Absolutely.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I mean, how did that--
- you know, because I came out when everything was out there.
- You know, you didn't have to look
- too hard to find something.
- Talk to me a little bit more about the challenges of really
- trying to find yourselves.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Well, I don't know
- where I would have-- how I would have
- looked if Peggy and (unintelligible)
- hadn't been there.
- You know, they were--
- (unintelligible) was an older lesbian.
- Peggy was younger.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Where did you meet
- Peggy and (unintelligible)?
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Peggy and I took classes together.
- Peggy was also working full time--
- EVELYN BAILEY: At the U of R.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: --but in grad school.
- We took several night school courses together.
- But back then, Pat actually got involved earlier
- than I did, here, in Rochester.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, Pat, let's talk about you a little bit.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Yeah, I think she really--
- had a more normal experience in this.
- I was really guided by several other people.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.
- PAT COLLINS: Yeah.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Rochester native, or--
- PAT COLLINS: No.
- I'm from West Virginia.
- And I couldn't have been more repressed down there.
- It was absolutely horrible.
- I went to a bar--
- I finally found out a bar where you knock on the door.
- You had a code name that you said.
- You paid five dollars to join.
- And then you got to go, and knock on the door,
- and go in, and buy drinks, and be
- where other lesbians and gay men were.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Roughly what time--
- what year are we talking about?
- PAT COLLINS: '67 and '68.
- And the mystery of it all was fun, but the people that I met
- were not my peers.
- And so it was not a good scene at all.
- In fact, there were lots of stories
- I could tell you about that, but that's not
- what we're here to talk about.
- I was in Rochester visiting a friend,
- and I saw two women holding hands.
- And I thought, my god, this is the city I should come move to.
- And so it turned out, as fate would have it,
- that I was at a convention--
- a camping convention.
- Met a woman from Rochester who said
- there was a job opening as full-time camp director of Camp
- Onanda with the YWCA here.
- And so I jumped at it.
- And low and behold, I got it.
- And here I was.
- I don't know how I learned about the Gay Alliance,
- but I was determined to find out something about gay something
- because I knew something was here.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So you came to Rochester-- what-- then
- after 1971-- '72.
- PAT COLLINS: I came to Rochester in--
- '71, '72, '73-- '73.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: '73.
- OK.
- PAT COLLINS: And that's when I found
- what I described with just the-- not Lesbian Resource Center.
- Patti Evans and I said, look, something's got to--
- EVELYN BAILEY: How did you meet Patti Evans?
- PAT COLLINS: She was at the Lesbian Resource Center.
- I think I must have--
- maybe they had a phone and I looked it up in the phone.
- Maybe I found the newspaper--
- you know, the Empty Closet.
- I don't know how I got there.
- But I was thrilled when I was there,
- even though the circumstances weren't that good.
- And I decided that I would--
- this was going to be where I was going to hang out.
- And so I talked to Patti and I said,
- let's go talk to the Gay Brotherhood
- and see if the Lesbian Resource Center can meet,
- you know, once a week at their spot,
- for free because we don't have any space.
- And so we started meeting there.
- And then I met Tim.
- I met John Noble.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Tim?
- PAT COLLINS: Mains.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Tim Mains.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Tim Mains.
- PAT COLLINS: John Noble.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Michael Robertson.
- PAT COLLINS: Michael Robertson.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Whitey?
- PAT COLLINS: Whitey came just a tad later, but yeah,
- very shortly after that.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Now, just to clarify for me,
- they were with the Gay Brotherhood,
- not with the Gay Alliance?
- PAT COLLINS: They were with the Gay Brotherhood.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
- So we're not even to the Gay Alliance yet?
- PAT COLLINS: No.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
- PAT COLLINS: And that's when John and I wrote a grant
- to get CETA to give us a grant for a part-time staff person
- to give us a staff person.
- And that's when we started forming the Gay Alliance-- was
- my understanding.
- Now, I understand that I'm not right about that.
- But this was 1974 or '73.
- What do you think?
- EVELYN BAILEY: The CETA grant was written in 1977.
- PAT COLLINS: OK, then.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Yeah, I remember that.
- PAT COLLINS: All right, then, I thought it was later.
- So I had been active with the Gay Alliance since--
- with the Lesbian Resource Center since
- I got into town at '73 or '74.
- EVELYN BAILEY: The Lesbian Resource Center and the Gay
- Brotherhood were both at the Genesee Co-op.
- PAT COLLINS: Right.
- Yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: But they were not one organization.
- PAT COLLINS: Right.
- EVELYN BAILEY: They were two organizations.
- PAT COLLINS: That's right.
- And I wanted them to be together.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And in '74, they combined
- to form one organization.
- PAT COLLINS: Right.
- And I thought I was part of that effort.
- But I understand I wasn't.
- I mean, I understand other people
- are saying that they were involved with that.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So just for my own clarification, was it,
- then, the Gay Brotherhood and the Lesbian Resource
- Center that came together to form the Gay Alliance?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
- PAT COLLINS: Yes, that's my understanding.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
- Because I was thinking the Gay Alliance
- was started with the Liberation Front at the U of R
- and moved over to the Co-op to join these guys.
- EVELYN BAILEY: It started at the U of R
- with the Gay Liberation Front.
- But the women at the U of R were always at odds with the men
- because the men's issues were not the same as lesbian issues.
- And so when the Gay Liberation got moved off campus,
- the Gay Liberation Front went to 812 Brown Street.
- And Mark Howe was the owner of the business
- into whose back room, garage they moved.
- In 1973, they went--
- the Gay Brotherhood went to the Co-op
- because there was no heat in that garage.
- There was-- it was nothing in the back of the garage.
- PAT COLLINS: Gotcha.
- OK.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And they had not really found a place.
- I mean, their exit from the U of R was very quick.
- It was not-- it was not a long-term, transition.
- PAT COLLINS: Wow.
- OK.
- Alright.
- EVELYN BAILEY: So they went to 812 Brown Street.
- And the women were at the Lesbian Resource
- Center at the Genesee Co-op.
- PAT COLLINS: At the Co-op. so they got that little space.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So the Liberation Front,
- when they left U of R, kind of split.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So the men went to Brown Street,
- the women went to the Co-op, and then
- eventually they came back together.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- Because the women had--
- they didn't have a lot of space, but the space they had--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: They had heat.
- EVELYN BAILEY: --was heated.
- Exactly.
- PAT COLLINS: It was at least heated.
- Right.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And the men--
- and the Lesbian Resource Center didn't have money,
- didn't have financial resources.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: And the men did.
- EVELYN BAILEY: The men did.
- PAT COLLINS: That's right.
- EVELYN BAILEY: So they came to the Co-op to join the women.
- And then, in 1974, in December--
- actually, December '73, I think was,
- the alliance was incorporated.
- PAT COLLINS: OK.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And that began the Gay Alliance of the Genesee
- Valley, with those two groups.
- So but it was very blurry.
- I mean, it was--
- it was not clearly--
- PAT COLLINS: Well, I came to Rochester in '73.
- So I think I was either part of that,
- or right on the fringe of it, or wanting it to happen but still
- learning because I was the one, I know,
- with Patti or somebody who went to the Gay Brotherhood
- and said, come on, let's--
- can we please use your space?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- PAT COLLINS: But I might have done
- that, not even knowing about this other thing going on
- at all.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- PAT COLLINS: Or the history, you know,
- of what the Liberation Front was about
- because I don't remember knowing about that.
- I do remember, later on, that U of R or one of the college
- groups joined the Gay Alliance.
- That was this third group to join, or to be affiliated.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Well, the University of Rochester
- group became, I believe, the Academic Union at that point.
- And then it changed its name again.
- But in the early days, there were just those two groups--
- PAT COLLINS: Well, anyway, those were those two groups.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And then there came--
- PAT COLLINS: (unintelligible).
- EVELYN BAILEY: --the political caucus.
- PAT COLLINS: Yes, that was aside.
- It had to be aside because it couldn't
- be part of the non-profit.
- And that's where Bob came in and he did the work on that.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Bob Crystal?
- PAT COLLINS: No.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Sweeney?
- PAT COLLINS: No.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Bob Sweeney?
- PAT COLLINS: No.
- Bob Sweeney and Bob Crystal were there but then--
- probably got the wrong name.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Bob Osborn?
- PAT COLLINS: Nope.
- It's escaped me, but he and his partner--
- he married Don.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: He married Don--
- Is that Don--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Oh, Jim Ide?
- PAT COLLINS: Jim Ide!
- Thank you.
- Jim was the one that was mostly the one that
- was helping make that happen, at the beginning, that I remember.
- But anyway--
- EVELYN BAILEY: But you and John Noble wrote the CETA grant--
- PAT COLLINS: That's right.
- EVELYN BAILEY: --the first CETA grant.
- PAT COLLINS: That's right.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And Bob Sweeney was vice president, I think,
- or president of the Alliance at the time.
- And Michael Robertson was president.
- PAT COLLINS: Nope.
- Michael Robertson and I were co-presidents together and--
- EVELYN BAILEY: In '77?
- PAT COLLINS: And-- whenever.
- I think we were--
- I thought we were the second presidents.
- And I don't know who was the first, but it--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Whitey LeBlanc.
- PAT COLLINS: Whitey LeBlanc.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
- So it was, by that time, known as the Gay Alliance, though?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
- PAT COLLINS: Yeah, it had been-- gotten that name by that time.
- OK.
- The first president was Whitey.
- Who was the second?
- Bob--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Michel Robertson.
- PAT COLLINS: OK.
- Then, that's me and Michael, then.
- That's what I remember.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- PAT COLLINS: OK.
- Alright.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Let's go back to CETA funding.
- PAT COLLINS: OK.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Because that seems
- to be a part of this story.
- PAT COLLINS: Yes.
- What I felt and all of us, as a group--
- board-- I don't know what we were called--
- was that we felt--
- you know, we had a lot going by then.
- I think we had started, or we had
- talked about having a speakers bureau,
- peer counseling, programming.
- You know, the Gay Brotherhood did their programming.
- The Lesbian Resource Center--
- I was helping make that happen with discussions and things
- like that, and other--
- I mean, other women were helping--
- Mary Lou Wale-- Whyle--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Wells
- PAT COLLINS: --Wells was getting a library together.
- I think that's all I can think of, right now.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Karen Hagberg?
- PAT COLLINS: I did not know Karen very well.
- I think she was working on--
- in some other areas.
- She-- I didn't see much of her ever.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Marge David?
- PAT COLLINS: Yeah, Marge.
- I remember Marge.
- And she would come to some meetings.
- Maybe a lot of them, I don't remember.
- She was working at Cheesy Eddie's.
- But anyway, I was thrilled to be involved with all of this
- because I had been fired from my job
- in York, Pennsylvania, which is where I had gone to after I
- got my Master's Degree.
- I had worked for the Girl Scouts,
- first, which, of course, was very dangerous as a lesbian.
- Then, at the-- I had already accepted the job in Rochester.
- So they really couldn't fire me, per se.
- But they found out probably three days
- before I was to leave my job that I was a lesbian.
- I was working at their camp there as director.
- And they asked me to leave and not--
- and if I left for two days, I could come back
- at the closing camp fire.
- You know, like-- you know, fuck you, lady.
- But anyway, I did not have enough self-esteem,
- at the time, to sue them because the YWCA, nationally, had just
- said that you could not discriminate against lesbians
- on your staff.
- And I should've done it, but I didn't.
- I had a job coming with the Y up here.
- And so I just didn't want to--
- you know, I was--
- I was young.
- What did I know?
- I was twenty-six.
- So then, I thought it was wonderful what was happening.
- You know, we were growing.
- I was on the speakers bureau.
- I was a peer counselor.
- Mary Lou Wells, I think, was a social worker--
- MSW.
- And she was the one that was training peer counselors to do
- a good job as a peer counselor.
- And then we hired this--
- we needed Phil.
- I mean, we knew we needed someone
- to help coordinate all of this, and someone to be there
- all the time, or as much as the time as he could,
- for office hours, so to speak.
- To just be there so that our doors would be open.
- And that's why we wrote the CETA grant.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Does Joan Guiffre ring any bells?
- PAT COLLINS: Um-hm.
- I can't place her right now.
- EVELYN BAILEY: OK.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Was she a large woman?
- Tall and-- not--
- EVELYN BAILEY: At the time.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Just big, I mean--
- yeah.
- I think I know who Joan Guiffre was.
- PAT COLLINS: I just can't place her right now,
- but-- if I just saw a picture of her, I'm sure I would.
- I'm real good at faces.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Pam Barrale.
- PAT COLLINS: That's a name I remember,
- but I'd have to see the face.
- But every night after work, I'd go home, have a TV dinner,
- and down to the Lesbian Resource Center I would go.
- And then I'd work there until we were all exhausted.
- And then we'd go to the Riverview--
- I mean the boys--
- the boys would go to their place,
- and I'd go to the Riverview.
- And the Riverview was just like Cheers
- you see on television because you walk in,
- you know everybody there.
- And you play some pool and have some drinks.
- And then you go home at one o'clock.
- And do it all over again.
- But I just loved what I was doing.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: What was it about getting involved all
- of that-- with that that drew that passion out of you?
- PAT COLLINS: OK.
- To understand my passion from that,
- you have to understand how I grew up.
- My father was a Methodist minister.
- My grandfather was a Methodist minister.
- And aunts and uncles either married or were ministers.
- And they-- when I told my parents I was gay,
- they were horrified and thought it was the worst possible thing
- that I could be.
- They also were horrified at what other people would
- think of them.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Afraid your dad would
- lose his job as a minister, that he'd be fired because of it.
- PAT COLLINS: They--
- I had always been a parent pleaser,
- so this was extremely horrifying to me
- because I wanted their acceptance.
- And so I had to be--
- I had to hide.
- And I loved girl scouting and I went
- into that as a professional Girl Scout,
- out of undergraduate work--
- I mean, school.
- And you know, that couldn't have been
- the worst thing in the world that I could have done,
- but I loved it.
- So it was perfect for me.
- And then I found out, just as I was about to go to grad school,
- that half the staff there were gay and I didn't even know it.
- But--
- EVELYN BAILEY: How did you find out?
- PAT COLLINS: Well, I got drunk one night
- with one of the women who was on the staff who
- invited this other woman over.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Isn't that the way it always happens?
- PAT COLLINS: And the two of us got drunk.
- The woman who was hostess of the dinner got so drunk,
- she went to bed.
- And so I finally told Charlotte that I
- was gay, and miserable, and blah, blah, blah.
- And she says, "Well, honey, I am too."
- And she presented herself to make love to me.
- And we became lovers.
- So that was very nice until I realized
- that she was not monogamous and that just blew me away
- because I couldn't imagine not being monogamous.
- But you know, I was ready to marry anybody
- I found when I was that young.
- All I wanted was to find someone to marry and settle down.
- My goals in life were to have a career I believed in,
- a closeness with my spirit power,
- and a woman to be with and have a family.
- Those were my goals.
- And I was thrilled to find the gay alliance because I had--
- all through college, I couldn't find a lesbian woman.
- Through undergrad-- you know, so college who was miserable.
- In high school-- my senior year in high school,
- I fell in love with my best friend.
- And one thing, when I was--
- I double dated this little greasy faced guy
- just so I could be with her.
- So after they left and I had endured that--
- the boys left.
- One night, Johnny Mathis was playing.
- The fireplace was on.
- We were at her house.
- She sat down in a rocking chair.
- And I went over to her and came close to her face.
- And she went back further.
- And I came close to her face.
- She went back further and, you know,
- she went over in the chair.
- I was trying to kiss her and I just--
- I don't know what I bumbled through and made up some story.
- But that didn't work.
- I chose a straight woman and that was a bad choice.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, we've all been there, too.
- PAT COLLINS: She didn't much talk about me anymore.
- I mean, talk with me anymore.
- But it was coming from where you had to hide.
- It was coming where it was shameful.
- I told you about the bar scene that I finally
- found in Rochester, which was a negative thing to do.
- I found, when I moved to York, Pennsylvania,
- there wasn't any bar scenes there.
- That was a small little town.
- But there was one place where, once a year,
- they had a big party.
- Somebody threw a huge thing and I met some women there.
- And then I found the little network
- of small group of women that were there.
- Again, not my peers.
- So when I came to Rochester, I met
- some women who were my peers, and men as well.
- EVELYN BAILEY: But you liked the Riverview?
- PAT COLLINS: Oh yeah, I loved the Riverview.
- There was-- because that's where all of the people
- that were connected with the Gay Alliance in one way or another.
- Or I met them there and, you know,
- rallied them to the cause.
- I was always gathering volunteers.
- You know, we'd sit and talk, and play pool, and dance.
- And of course, if I didn't have a partner at the time,
- I was there to try and pick up a woman.
- But sort of not-- sort of so--
- hoping for-- you know, that kind of stuff.
- And I did date several different women.
- And it just didn't work out.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Several?
- PAT COLLINS: A lot of women.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Most of the Rochester's lesbian community
- back then, or so I've since heard.
- PAT COLLINS: Well, it wasn't as bad as Patti Evans.
- She introduced every lesbian that moved here to--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
- We're recording this, remember.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Yes, yes.
- PAT COLLINS: Oh, I forgot.
- Well, I love Patti Evans and I want her belt
- to (unintelligible) too.
- So what can I say?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Talk a little bit about the women
- who you met, in terms of profession, in terms of--
- were they professional?
- Were they--
- PAT COLLINS: Well, I felt empowered by working
- at the-- volunteering at the Gay Alliance.
- It made me stronger.
- It made me less homophobic myself.
- It made me proud to be who I was.
- If we had-- there was also the NOW, and Women's Pride,
- and all of that kind of thing was going on.
- And I was involved with that, as well.
- And at work, where I was, one woman at a staff meeting
- once turned to me and she said, "Are you married?"
- I said "Yes."
- And she said, "Well, who's your husband?"
- And I said, "Well what makes you think he's a man?"
- And I don't know how that flew out of my mouth, but it did.
- I must have felt safe enough with this woman.
- And she and I are still good friends today.
- And so I did have this one person that was close to me.
- But then, I went to the Unitarian Church
- and found acceptance there.
- And so I got feeling better, but I was still very closeted
- at the different not for profit organizations
- I worked at, which were the--
- well, the Y, the Arthritis Foundation,
- and the Easter Seal's Society.
- I got fired from that one for being gay.
- Well, and the Arthritis Foundation, too.
- I was just getting too open.
- And the Y here, eventually, because I was getting too open.
- I was having workshops for lesbians on how
- to improve their relationships.
- I was having workshops on how to--
- on lesbian mothers and things to do.
- And I was just--
- I was program director, so I thought well this--
- I can just go for it.
- And, so.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: What you were looking for, I think, Evelyn,
- a while back, was the others around at that time.
- And this probably isn't politically correct to say it,
- but a lot of them, I think, were people
- who didn't have a lot to lose by being open.
- To which I mean that they may have already lost
- their families or not, or their families were far away.
- But they weren't always looking over
- their shoulder, afraid that the families were
- going to find out.
- And they weren't in professional positions
- somewhere, where they had spent a lot of time
- getting where they were, and trying
- to build their career in whatever direction it was.
- So that there were a lot of hard-working,
- some top-notch people, but not people
- who were moving with the same goals
- as some of us who were out of college and building,
- you know, more of professional level careers,
- or in college, you know.
- PAT COLLINS: That was true of the women, yes.
- But the men were professional men.
- And they just took it on to be active.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Were out?
- Do you know?
- PAT COLLINS: Well, I don't know.
- Bob Sweeney?
- Was he out?
- I don't know.
- Jim Ide?
- I don't know.
- EVELYN BAILEY: I don't know.
- PAT COLLINS: I don't think so.
- I don't think John Noble was.
- Tim Mains?
- No.
- He was one of the first, I think,
- to come out at the school where he was a counselor.
- But I don't think most of us, at the beginning,
- that were professionals, who knew we'd be fired.
- Now, one thing that happened at the Gay Alliance
- when I was president was they wanted--
- one of the TV stations came and wanted to interview me.
- And I said, fine, but I'll lose my job
- If you take a picture of my face.
- So I even took my rings off.
- And I had them take a picture of me from behind, as we talked
- and I was interviewed.
- And I walked into work the next day, and they say,
- I saw you on TV.
- And I was too naive to have them go over my voice
- and my West Virginia accent gave me away.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: It was much worse back then.
- PAT COLLINS: Yeah.
- So you know, that started the downfall of my working there.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Yeah.
- I think there's a--
- what you're hearing a lot is the difference
- between the sixties and the seventies,
- and the North and the South.
- You know, when I came out in the seventies, being gay
- wasn't talked about.
- You never read the word in the newspaper.
- It was before Ellen or any of those other--
- PAT COLLINS: Oh, lord.
- Yes.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: --sitcoms came in with anyone talk--
- nobody just talked about it.
- We existed as though we didn't exist.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: It's kind of interesting
- because in my perception of the late sixties
- and early seventies was everything was open.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Oh, no.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: The free love the hippy movement and all
- that stuff.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Oh, no.
- PAT COLLINS: Well, that was with straight people.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: That was straight people.
- PAT COLLINS: That was straight people and California,
- with straight men.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Or with gay men.
- PAT COLLINS: I mean, with gay men.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Yeah.
- PAT COLLINS: But not--
- JUDY LAWRENCE: But here--
- not.
- But when I came out, I told my two closest straight women
- friends.
- And-- one of whom was Chic--
- and the three of us decided, you know, well, maybe we all are.
- We should go explore this.
- We talked about it, you know.
- And I mean, it was just--
- I came out at church--
- the Unitarian Church.
- And either people accepted it or they didn't say they didn't.
- I mean, they didn't treat me differently.
- But that was between the mid-sixties
- the mid-seventies of the way things had changed.
- PAT COLLINS: And Judy's experience
- was the exact opposite of mine.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Yeah.
- Yeah.
- PAT COLLINS: I lived in fear, and past abuse,
- and non-acceptance from parents, or my sister,
- or anybody in the family, period--
- cousins.
- You know, no one knew because you don't dare tell the secret.
- And you know, I was-- any chance I
- had-- if I was at a conference from somewhere,
- I was going in dingy bars, walking down the streets in New
- York City at night by myself, and in California
- because I knew there was the Daughters of Bilitis there.
- So I flew out there just to get to know
- some people who were gay.
- I thought I was the only gay person in West Virginia.
- And I walked into the Study, the bar,
- and the bartender said, "Well honey, I'm from West Virginia."
- And she told me--
- oh, that's how I learned.
- She was the one that told me, she
- looked up in a book about the bar in Charleston, West
- Virginia, where I was living.
- I had to fly to California--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: To find a bar in West Virginia.
- PAT COLLINS: --to find that.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: To find a bar in West Virginia.
- Yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Wow.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: (unintelligible).
- JUDY LAWRENCE: But even with the women's movement,
- the feminist movement, which was growing in strength there--
- they weren't lesbian friendly.
- PAT COLLINS: Oh, not at all.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: They were terrified
- of the presence of open lesbians in their group.
- PAT COLLINS: --in their group except-- and most of the--
- and a lot of them were lesbians.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Yes.
- PAT COLLINS: But they--
- Betty Friedan--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So are we talking about NOW?
- PAT COLLINS: Yeah.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: NOW and--
- PAT COLLINS: National Organization of Women.
- Betty Friedan--
- JUDY LAWRENCE: --the feminist movement.
- PAT COLLINS: --didn't want anything to do with lesbians.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: No.
- PAT COLLINS: And yet, many of them were lesbians,
- but they got really--
- they got picked on.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Well, they didn't want men saying, well,
- of course, you know, you're these tough bull
- dyke's because you're--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Right.
- Sure.
- Right.
- Yeah.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: It's always the insult thrown at women
- if they don't follow the rules is, they must be a dyke,
- you know.
- So yeah, it was a free time if you were--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: If you followed the rules.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: --if you followed the rules
- about who could be rebellious.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Right.
- Right.
- Well, it's interesting because I would have always thought
- that the feminist movement and the women's movement
- was always right in line with lesbian movement.
- PAT COLLINS: Oh, not at all.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Of course.
- It should have been.
- PAT COLLINS: Should have been, but not at all.
- And women-- Judy and I got together in '76?
- JUDY LAWRENCE: I think so, yes.
- PAT COLLINS: Or '77.
- And I wanted a family.
- So here, I had it all, you know, a little three
- and four-year-old.
- So we had a family.
- It was perfect.
- Not perfect, but it was perfect.
- And--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: How old were your kids when the two of you
- got together?
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Three and four.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Three and four.
- OK.
- PAT COLLINS: But the trouble was that even the lesbians then,
- except for those who were mothers of boys,
- didn't accept little boys.
- They thought they should give them up to their fathers
- because they didn't think they should raise the patriarchy.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Yeah, it was called--
- people would ask, why was I babysitting the patriarchy?
- I should've given both of my kids
- up to their father, rather than Pat and I raising them.
- But if I had to keep our daughter--
- PAT COLLINS: --was what society thought.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Yeah.
- If I had to keep our daughter, that
- was understandable a little bit.
- But why I kept the boy?
- PAT COLLINS: Well, this is what the lesbian community,
- at the time, was saying.
- But we helped form, along with Tawn Feeney, a women's--
- JUDY LAWRENCE: And Lynn--
- Lynn Wicks.
- PAT COLLINS: --a lesbian parents group.
- And I helped with some programming and things
- like that.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Now, talk a little bit
- about the attitude toward you, in the lesbian community,
- as, for lack of a better term, an ex-heterosexual?
- I mean-- you know--
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Had I billed myself as a bisexual,
- I think the attitude would have been very negative because back
- then, bisexuals were sort of ridiculed as not--
- as being afraid to come out.
- But I didn't.
- As a-- billing myself as a lesbian--
- this is what I am.
- I just realized it.
- Here I am.
- I'm not going to go out with you for five years
- and then decide I was just fooling around kind of thing.
- I didn't have any problem in the lesbian community with that.
- PAT COLLINS: Because you called yourself a lesbian.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Because I called myself--
- PAT COLLINS: Boy, if you called--
- I mean, I sure discriminated against bi's--
- bisexual women because I felt they were dangerous.
- You know, you go and invest your time and love with a bi
- and then she goes and goes back to a man.
- That's about the worst insult, in my thinking,
- as a soft butch, that could possibly be.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And what about the attitude toward family?
- Toward two women being together, raising
- children in that society?
- JUDY LAWRENCE: In the lesbian society?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: I said with-- you know, they just--
- a lot of the lesbian-- well, let's see--
- the real, radical lesbian feminists
- thought we shouldn't be doing it.
- You know, we're babysitting for the patriarchy.
- PAT COLLINS: With our son.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: With our son.
- Well, with Laura, too.
- You know, it was like he had the kids.
- You know, he impregnated me.
- I had them.
- I should have given them back and let him deal with it,
- you know.
- The majority of lesbians, I think,
- just weren't all that interested.
- You know, it wasn't-- they didn't see that as part
- of their life back then.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, there was this kind of--
- better way of putting it-- but this kind of amazonian attitude
- that I've come across with that lesbian community.
- That yeah, that whole ideal of being together with a partner
- and raising a family was so totally against their amazonian
- goals, or a way of living.
- PAT COLLINS: Yes.
- Yeah.
- Yeah.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Absolutely.
- And you know, as people who eliminated
- from their imagination the idea that they would
- have a family with someone.
- Because back then, that was before we
- could have dreamt of being artificially inseminated,
- let alone--
- there just wasn't a lot of interest in it.
- So where there wasn't a lot of interest
- in having babies themself, there wasn't
- a lot of compassion for the issues that parents--
- not just lesbian parents, but parents, go through.
- You know, you couldn't just, on the drop of a hat,
- decide to go out.
- PAT COLLINS: Yeah.
- I would say that was among the group of separatists.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: No.
- No.
- I'm say-- no.
- PAT COLLINS: You don't think so?
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Among the group of separatists,
- they didn't want us to have our kids.
- PAT COLLINS: That's what I'm talking about.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Among the general population of lesbians,
- of all of the other lesbians that we knew back then,
- there was only one who ever offered to help with the kids
- and take them for us-- from us for a few days.
- PAT COLLINS: Oh, yeah they weren't into kids.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: And that was Chic.
- PAT COLLINS: That's right.
- Yeah.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Now, among the gay men, we had more support.
- PAT COLLINS: Well, I couldn't necessarily say that,
- but we went in search of two uncles
- and found two uncles that were very sweet.
- (doorbell rings)
- JUDY LAWRENCE: No, I think, the lesbian-- the out lesbian--
- halfway-out lesbian community was young and excited.
- Excited about the freedom and excited about the possibilities
- of--
- PAT COLLINS: (unintelligible)
- JUDY LAWRENCE: --they weren't interested in someone
- who came along with a diaper bag and kids who got into things.
- PAT COLLINS: Thank you.
- Take care hon.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: You know, there would be parties
- and we had the kids, you know.
- And when I was single parenting, it was worse, you know?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Sure.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Parties that--
- I couldn't afford a babysitter.
- I was back in grad school and, you know,
- there just wasn't a lot of support.
- We managed to find friends who were
- supportive of our parenting over the years.
- PAT COLLINS: And we found straight friends
- at the Unitarian Church and I went to workshops
- on step parenting.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: With straight UUs.
- PAT COLLINS: With straight couples.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: All straights in that.
- PAT COLLINS: And we went to marriage enrichment classes
- with straight couples from the UU church.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: And not to say too much about the UUs but,
- you know, they had dances.
- The only place that would rent a space or let us use--
- I don't even know if we paid anything
- for it-- for dances was the downtown First Universalist
- Church.
- PAT COLLINS: And so we marched our little selves down
- to that dingy basement and tried to decorate it
- as best we could.
- And that's where we danced--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Was this the place
- we were just at for the pizza thing?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Um-hm.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, OK.
- EVELYN BAILEY: It's improved.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: He's going after the water thing--
- watering tin, which has some water in it.
- PAT COLLINS: I don't know what you're talking about.
- Oh, that's what he's doing?
- JUDY LAWRENCE: I think that's what he's-- yeah,
- he wants attention.
- PAT COLLINS: Yes, he's playing with--
- JUDY LAWRENCE: But it has water in it.
- PAT COLLINS: It does?
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Yeah, I was in route to take it out
- to water the flowers out there.
- PAT COLLINS: OK, honey.
- I'll put it over here.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: OK.
- He'll come play the piano soon.
- PAT COLLINS: Can we get you all something to drink?
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Yeah, would you like a glass of wine or--
- PAT COLLINS: Or a beer or a mixed drink or--
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Coffee--
- PAT COLLINS: --or coffee or a soda or tea.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Only if you guys are going to have something.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: I would have a glass of wine.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: If you're going to have a glass of wine,
- I will have a glass of wine.
- PAT COLLINS: You got it.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Red or white?
- Both are open.
- PAT COLLINS: I'll get them.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I prefer red if it's opened.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Red?
- OK.
- I have some nice Cabernet.
- PAT COLLINS: Cabernet Sauvignon.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Oh, excellent.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: How about you?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Just water.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Just water?
- PAT COLLINS: I have cider and stuff like that, too.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Any diet stuff?
- PAT COLLINS: Yeah, I've got diet--
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Mountain Dew and Diet Root Beer.
- EVELYN BAILEY: That's-- anything diet.
- PAT COLLINS: Well, which one darling?
- Root beer or the Mountain Dew?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Diet Mountain Dew.
- Or Root Beer.
- Root Beer.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Are you getting the stuff, honey?
- Thank you.
- PAT COLLINS: Yeah, I've got it.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Thank you.
- I'm still getting--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So I want to get some of your (unintelligible) I
- mean, she's--
- she's entrenched into the new Gay Alliance--
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Yeah, yeah.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: --and doing all sorts of work
- with that, and the CETA funding and all that stuff.
- What were you doing at the time?
- And how involved were you?
- JUDY LAWRENCE: I was not terribly involved.
- And again, and I'm sure you--
- if you haven't talked to a lot of people together,
- you'll find this.
- Pat and my memories differ on this.
- Pat remembers me as being much more involved than I was.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, I'm still thinking
- you had kids to take care of, right?
- JUDY LAWRENCE: I had kids and I was in graduate school.
- I was in a doctoral program at the time, at U of R.
- And so, you know, I didn't get involved in the politics
- of it-- the organization of it.
- I did meet some of the discussions
- at the lesbian group when it was held there.
- I did work on some of the fundraisers
- with some of the groups.
- I remember, we were--
- we had a big to do over the fact that we
- decided to do a fundraiser at--
- maybe it was Cornhill Festival--
- something like that.
- And it was right after Anita Bryant
- had been making her big spiel.
- PAT COLLINS: Oh, god.
- Anita Bryant.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Do I have this story right?
- PAT COLLINS: I don't know I haven't heard it.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Thank you.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: And so we were going to sell lemonade
- on a hot day-- evening.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Certainly not orange juice, right?
- JUDY LAWRENCE: No.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Don't worry about it, Pat.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: And we have a sign
- that said, when life gives you lemons,
- make lemonade from the Gay Alliance.
- And one of the people on the committee
- got there the day of-- a whole committee planned this,
- but of course, as it turned out, Pat and I
- were the ones who ended up doing it.
- And one of the committee members came there late on the day of.
- And Pat and I had made an executive decision
- that we were not going to squeeze lemons.
- We got frozen lemon juice.
- And oh, there was to do about that.
- Do you remember that?
- PAT COLLINS: Yeah.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Oh, such a big to do.
- PAT COLLINS: How stupid that was.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Because we--
- PAT COLLINS: --we used frozen lemonade instead.
- But no one else was doing it, or something like that.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Well, there was a whole committee planning it,
- but it ended up just you and I doing it.
- PAT COLLINS: Oh yeah, I remember that.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: So, you know, I did
- some of those kinds of things.
- And when the Speakers Bureau got going, I did enjoy that.
- I was one of the slightly more mature, years-wise--
- older than some of the other people who were more out,
- that was willing to go and talk to groups.
- And so I think--
- I enjoyed that a lot.
- And you know, I think that they called on me a bit
- because they had--
- the others to choose from often were like early twenties.
- I was in my thirties.
- Not a big difference, but back then, a difference.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.
- Sure.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: So Pat was much more involved
- in the organizational.
- Pat has always been more of an organizer anyways than me.
- But at the time, Pat was taking an active role
- in parenting the kids, but I was certainly
- still doing the primary role when we got together.
- And when Pat and I first started to live together,
- I had a small house in Webster, right on the lake,
- that was part of my job.
- It was given to me by a very wealthy family.
- Not given to me--
- rented to me, rent free-- rent and utility free,
- in exchange for watching three of their children after school.
- So I was going to U of R in the morning,
- dropping our kids off at Montessori Preschool,
- going to U of R, taking classes, coming back-- oh,
- and working a few hours as a graduate assistant.
- And then coming home in time to get our kids
- and be home to babysit these other kids,
- and then occasionally going back out for night classes.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Wow.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: I was not getting into a lot of--
- I couldn't even organize myself, let alone anything else.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Wow.
- That's a lot.
- I want to talk about some of the--
- over the years, some of the major events that you remember.
- I mean, let's start with Anita Bryant.
- Talk to me about that whole thing that
- was happening with Anita Bryant, particularly here in Rochester.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Pat, your memory is probably
- different than mine.
- PAT COLLINS: Well, I'm sure we sat around and bitched
- and moaned about it all.
- I think that was the one activity
- we thought of to try and--
- JUDY LAWRENCE: To do something about it.
- Yeah.
- PAT COLLINS: --counteract the whole thing--
- to do something about.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: To make a statement.
- PAT COLLINS: We may have had a march somewhere in all of that.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: I don't remember marching.
- I remember being too scared to march.
- PAT COLLINS: --in downtown.
- Oh, I think we--
- yeah, that's right.
- I would go to Take Back The Night marches or--
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Yeah.
- PAT COLLINS: --NOW and stuff, but I was always
- too afraid to march in the gay pride marches.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Yeah.
- I was afraid--
- PAT COLLINS: But--
- EVELYN BAILEY: What were the Take Back The Night marches
- about?
- PAT COLLINS: The take--
- OK, the Take Back The night.
- Was part of a spin off, I think, from NOW,
- and saying that women should have a chance
- to walk the streets at nights, without worrying
- about being raped, or being mugged, or being just whistled
- at, or anything that was unfair, basically, in treatment.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: We shouldn't be afraid to go out.
- PAT COLLINS: Shouldn't be afraid to go out.
- And so we-- and I think Chic had a lot
- to do with getting this one started, or something
- along that line.
- And so we--
- JUDY LAWRENCE: There was a group, too,
- against women against pornography.
- PAT COLLINS: Yeah that was a different group.
- That was Chic.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: And that was all--
- some of that same--
- we marched on that too.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
- I have to ask, who is this Chic person?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Chic Parker.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Clair Parker.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Clair Parker?
- PAT COLLINS: Clair Parker.
- EVELYN BAILEY: My first partner.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Oh, I did not know this.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- Yes.
- PAT COLLINS: The one thing funny that
- happened in the Take Back The Night, which I think occurred
- during the day, if I'm not-- or it
- was some march that we were marching,
- that was a related cause.
- A friend of mine was in a wheelchair,
- and her father was the basketball coach
- for the group of men who were in wheelchairs
- that played basketball.
- And she was marching right beside me in her wheelchair.
- And before the march, they said you can buy some spray, the--
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Pepper spray.
- PAT COLLINS: --pepper spray.
- So I had it in my pocket.
- And as we were crossing Main Street on Clinton, traveling
- on Clinton, a car rammed the crowd--
- JUDY LAWRENCE: On purpose.
- Not real fast, but on purpose.
- PAT COLLINS: --and knocked the wheelchair over.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Oh my god.
- PAT COLLINS: She was the one that probably saved us
- from broken legs.
- And so I got her back up, went rushing over,
- and a bunch of other women followed me to the car.
- And they rolled the window down.
- And I had this pepper spray in my pocket,
- and I forgot to use it because I'd just bought it.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Oh, we were pounding on the car
- and rocking the car.
- PAT COLLINS: So well, we pounded on the car,
- and then we started rocking it.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Scared the hell out of the guy.
- PAT COLLINS: And scared the bejesus out of this guy.
- And he had another guy with him.
- And they just started backing down the street as fast
- as they could go.
- You know, never to be seen again.
- But I just wish we could have turned the car over.
- I mean, I really do.
- But I knew not to get involved in too much of that stuff
- because I was so angry about women's rights,
- about women abuse, about the bashing of gays, and stuff,
- that I would have done very violent things, I think,
- if I was with another group to help me.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Yeah.
- PAT COLLINS: And then we went with Chic,
- and whoever else had gotten the against pornography walk.
- And I think I, or someone else, helped
- break a window of a porn shop--
- heterosexual porn shop.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: We were plastering signs, you know,
- on walls and on street signs.
- PAT COLLINS: And we plastered--
- God Barrale plastered signs all over the place and stuff.
- But of course now--
- JUDY LAWRENCE: It was a radical period.
- I mean, it was the 1970s.
- We were very radical.
- PAT COLLINS: Now, I might think differently.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Anita Bryant--
- what was the buzz about her?
- PAT COLLINS: OK.
- Anita was against gay men.
- And she--
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Well, against gays, period.
- PAT COLLINS: --against gays, period.
- She was the big advertiser of Florida Orange Juice.
- And she was a very pretty woman.
- And I think she was also a singer.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Yeah, yeah.
- PAT COLLINS: That's why they had gotten her to advertise.
- And she sort of reminded you, I think, of Connie Francis type
- singing, but not quite that same voice.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Yeah.
- PAT COLLINS: And she came out just crazy against gays.
- And so all of--
- I mean, she just asked for it.
- I think someone threw a pie in her face and--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Oh, yeah.
- Yeah.
- PAT COLLINS: --and all that kind of good stuff.
- But what was later found out, and the press never let it out
- to the world to know, was that her husband was gay
- and then she divorced him.
- And that's probably what caused her to act the way she did.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Anytime anyone protests just too loud,
- you know there's something ain't right.
- PAT COLLINS: Just like the evangelistic guys
- that we've caught and gay men-- sexual things.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Now, she was to come to the Dome Arena.
- PAT COLLINS: Was she?
- JUDY LAWRENCE: No, I don't remember that.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Um-hm.
- PAT COLLINS: That I did not remember or know.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And there was actually a rally downtown
- in opposition at the same time.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Do you know what-- when that was?
- PAT COLLINS: Do you know the date
- because I don't remember that at all.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: --what years because I don't even
- remember the Dome Arena being in that time.
- EVELYN BAILEY: 1978 or '79.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Really?
- PAT COLLINS: No kidding.
- How could I have missed that?
- EVELYN BAILEY: And Matloff--
- Ernie Matloff spoke.
- A number of gay leaders spoke at that rally.
- Her campaign was save the children.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: That's right.
- That's right.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Save the children--
- that's what her whole--
- PAT COLLINS: What a bitch.
- EVELYN BAILEY: --shtick was about.
- PAT COLLINS: Well, I know, if it was '78, Judy
- and I had just gotten together.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: You were slowing down
- on some of your involvement.
- PAT COLLINS: And stopped--
- yeah.
- We slowed way down.
- We were getting to know each other.
- We were getting to know the children.
- The children were getting to know me.
- They were also realizing their father truly
- had moved to Alaska and was not going
- to be part of their lives, and blamed me for it, of course,
- in their subconscious.
- And so we were dealing with a lot to make our family work.
- And so pretty much after, you know,
- '77 Judy and I were still gun-ho at the Lesbian Resource Center.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: I think '78 we started to--
- PAT COLLINS: And then, in '78, I'd
- say that's when we about had burned out and that was enough.
- We had to pay attention to our family.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Now, you mentioned Montessori.
- Did your kids go to Montessori all the way through?
- JUDY LAWRENCE: No.
- No.
- Back then, they just had it, I think, through kindergarten.
- And ours just went through--
- Matt went through kindergarten and Laura just
- went up three years, up until kindergarten.
- PAT COLLINS: But while we were living in Webster,
- we talked to the Webster schools about Matt
- starting in first grade.
- And they said that the Webster schools are
- going to be very biased against you, as a lesbian family,
- And you'd better move.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Yeah.
- PAT COLLINS: So we did.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Matt was starting--
- his father had just moved.
- He's the oldest of our two kids.
- His father had just moved to Alaska
- and dropped out of sight, as far as Matt was concerned.
- And he was having some acting out problems
- and the school counselor figured out that we were lesbians.
- And she was the one, she said, I think
- your son needs counseling, but I think
- he doesn't need counseling within the Webster school
- system.
- I can give you the names of some counselors who
- will be very comfortable with your lifestyle
- and could help him.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Oh, good for her.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Yeah.
- I mean, she was wonderful.
- She was wonderful.
- PAT COLLINS: That proved to be true
- because I applied for a job in Webster
- somewhere along the line, when I was still in human services,
- to be--
- I think it was a youth counselor.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Yeah, some youth program.
- PAT COLLINS: And they hired me.
- And over the weekend, they called me
- and said, "Are you a lesbian?"
- I said, "Yes."
- And they said, "Well then don't come to work on Monday."
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Yeah, someone had told them.
- PAT COLLINS: That was that.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Someone had--
- or word yeah--
- EVELYN BAILEY: So where did you move to?
- PAT COLLINS: We didn't.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: We moved to West Irondequoit.
- PAT COLLINS: Yeah, we bought a house.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Just down the road from House of Guitars,
- we bought a house there.
- PAT COLLINS: The library was across the road.
- Little deli where the kids could get-- penny candy was there.
- They could walk to school for all three schools.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: We lived there until they were out of school,
- and Laura graduated.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And that district was--
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Much better.
- Much better.
- PAT COLLINS: It was better, but it wasn't 100 percent.
- The health teacher was telling--
- JUDY LAWRENCE: This was in high school.
- PAT COLLINS: -- negative gay jokes in class, Matt--
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Yeah.
- And incorrect information about AIDS,
- about how AIDS is transmitted.
- But I went to the--
- I was not-- neither of us were parents
- to go running to the school, like a lot of parents do today,
- and saying, why are you beating up on my kids.
- But that was one of the few times
- I did go to see the principal.
- And I said, "This is what I understand is happening,
- and you've got to have it stop."
- And he said, "If that is happening,
- and I will check it out, it will not happen again.
- And if you ever hear of it happening again,
- come and tell me."
- PAT COLLINS: And it happened again.
- She went and told him again.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: And that was it.
- PAT COLLINS: And it did-- it did stop.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Yeah, I mean, it stopped.
- So we got good support.
- I remember when our son was in like first grade or something
- and it was coming up to Mother's Day.
- And the teacher felt like she was-- she told me this later
- at a parent teacher meeting.
- She said she was being so with it and with the times
- and up to date.
- And she said to the kids, "Now, today we're
- going to make little gifts--
- cards for our mothers for Mother's Day.
- And some of you will want to make
- two cards because you might have a mother and a stepmother."
- And Matt's hand went up and said, "Can I make three cards?"
- PAT COLLINS: Yeah, because his dad had remarried.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Yeah, and he says, "I've got three mothers."
- But she thought it was funny and told me about it later,
- you know.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: That is kind of funny.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: So we--
- on a whole, the system was good.
- The kids got some harassment in school.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Oh, yeah.
- PAT COLLINS: Yeah, Laura was being called a lesbian
- in the parking lot in grade--
- junior high?
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Junior high.
- PAT COLLINS: Yeah, and so Judy sat
- and had lunch with the mother--
- JUDY LAWRENCE: Or breakfast, yeah.
- PAT COLLINS: --or breakfast, and explained what was going on.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: The mother of the kid who was doing the--
- PAT COLLINS: And the mother explained that her daughter
- was having problems.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: The mother said she'd stop, and she did.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Oh, good.
- PAT COLLINS: She talked to her and did
- whatever needed to be done.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: So it wasn't perfect, but it really--
- PAT COLLINS: But it wasn't horrendous.
- JUDY LAWRENCE: In the seventies and eighties,