Audio Interview, Paul Haney, August 7, 2013

  • EVELYN BAILEY: Well, today is August 7,
  • and I'm sitting at the Gay Alliance Library
  • with Paul Haney, asking him to kind of look back
  • to his youth and early years in Rochester, because he
  • has been a major player in the political scene for the past--
  • well, I'm not going to mention how many years.
  • PAUL HANEY: Oh, long time.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Long time.
  • But you were born in Rochester?
  • PAUL HANEY: Yes.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Whereabouts?
  • PAUL HANEY: 1941, northwest part of the city.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And you went to school here.
  • PAUL HANEY: Yeah, I went all through Catholic school,
  • went to a holy rosary grammar school, Aquinas,
  • then I went to St. John Fisher, and then I
  • got a master's degree at Syracuse.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: So did you leave Rochester to do that?
  • PAUL HANEY: Yes, when I left Rochester to go to Syracuse,
  • it was a one year MBA.
  • That was the first time I left Rochester.
  • Then when I finished at Syracuse I went to New York,
  • and I live in New York for four years.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And that would be around '64?
  • PAUL HANEY: From September of '64 to May of '68.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: So that was pre-Stonewall?
  • PAUL HANEY: Oh, yes.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And when you were growing up in Rochester,
  • did you hear, or was there any conversation
  • about homosexuality, about--
  • PAUL HANEY: Not in the least.
  • I mean, there wasn't--
  • didn't even know it existed.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Um-hm.
  • PAUL HANEY: I knew I had my own personal inclinations,
  • but thought I was totally unique in that regard.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Do you have any recollection of what
  • or where people would go in the sixties or--
  • PAUL HANEY: None.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And in New York, I'm sure it was--
  • PAUL HANEY: In New York it was somewhat more obvious,
  • and especially down in the village, of course.
  • And I lived in Brooklyn Heights.
  • There was a bar in Brooklyn Heights that was a gay bar.
  • But this was still in an era when the police in New York
  • used to periodically raid the bars.
  • I know there was a bar across the street from the St. George
  • Hotel on Clark Street that--
  • I never thought of it as a gay bar,
  • but nonetheless, in the time that I was in New York,
  • it was raided a couple of times by the police.
  • I suspect there was something more to the rationale for it--
  • that raid, I mean.
  • But that was the ostensible reason
  • why that place was raided.
  • But in Rochester, when I left in '64,
  • I had no knowledge of anything.
  • Rochester changed tremendously during the four years
  • that I was gone from the scene.
  • There was a-- in fact, when I came back in '68,
  • I really was very surprised how different
  • Rochester was than it was when I left in the fall of '63.
  • Between Syracuse and New York I was gone nearly five years.
  • And during that period, what drove
  • the change was that there was a tremendous influx
  • of people from out of town who moved to Rochester.
  • This was the heyday.
  • Kodak was still going strong.
  • Kodak-- I mean, it's hard for people to imagine now,
  • and I say this to out of towners and I know they don't believe
  • me--
  • but Kodak peaked at about sixty-four thousand employees
  • in Monroe County.
  • And that's just a staggering number of people.
  • And the Rochester that I left in '63 was one in which you just
  • weren't--
  • especially growing up in the northwest part of the city--
  • everybody worked at Kodak.
  • The neighbor on the right worked at Kodak.
  • The neighbor on the left worked at Kodak.
  • The neighbor in the house behind this worked at Kodak.
  • The neighbor in the house kitty-corner
  • to the northeast across the street worked at Kodak.
  • The neighbor in the house kitty-corner to the southeast
  • worked at Kodak.
  • And in Irish Catholic families, the joke
  • was that they were expected to give one son to Kodak
  • and one son to the church.
  • And my brother fulfilled the first obligation,
  • and I failed the family with the second obligation.
  • But then, right at this time, suddenly, overnight, Xerox
  • began to grow by leaps and bounds.
  • And Xerox, or Haloid, as it was still called at that time--
  • Haloid was an old Rochester company located over
  • on Hollenbeck Street.
  • But they were a small, family owned company.
  • The Wilson family owned it.
  • And I don't know how many people they employed,
  • but I would guess one hundred and fifty or two hundred
  • people or something.
  • And all of a sudden--
  • well, it wasn't all of a sudden.
  • It was a torturous process that went on for many years.
  • There's a fascinating biography of Joe Wilson that
  • sort of lays it all out, a fascinating process.
  • But finally, after years and years
  • of research and development et cetera,
  • they perfected Chester Carlson's idea.
  • And the world just couldn't get its hands
  • on enough Xerox machines.
  • I mean, it was incredible.
  • Xerox had little tiny facilities every place, all over town.
  • If you had a building with--
  • this was before the Webster Facility.
  • It was before Xerox tower downtown.
  • And if you had a facility, I know
  • on the corner of the street where I grew up
  • at the corner of Ravine and Lake Avenues,
  • there was a store maybe--
  • oh, maybe two thousand square feet.
  • It had been a hobby store for years and years and years.
  • And that went out of business, and the next thing we knew,
  • Xerox rented it.
  • It was an era in which if you had
  • one thousand square feet of vacant space, Xerox rented it.
  • And the result was they were every place.
  • And Rochester wasn't big enough to feed both Kodak and Xerox.
  • So there was a sudden, dramatic influx of people, primarily
  • young people--
  • well, young in their twenties and thirties--
  • to work for Xerox.
  • And these people, they came from every place, but very
  • well educated people, cosmopolitan people, at least
  • by Rochester's standards, cosmopolitan.
  • And they came to Rochester and they weren't about to live--
  • I mean, in the fifties, Rochester
  • was a place where I don't know if there
  • was a single decent restaurant.
  • People just didn't go out to dinner.
  • Life was very much centered on the home,
  • the family, et cetera.
  • And the influx of these several thousand people
  • who came to primarily feed Xerox,
  • but now that Kodak had a competitor for employment
  • also continued to feed Kodak, really changed the face
  • of Rochester, so that when I came back in '68
  • I was quite surprised at how much Rochester had changed.
  • There were decent restaurants in Rochester.
  • People were going out to dinner, younger people.
  • People of my parents' generation still
  • couldn't convince my father that he
  • ought to go out and buy a meal.
  • But people of, say, my generation were going out.
  • And it was a very different town.
  • And the people who stayed here-- it's
  • like everything else-- people who
  • stayed here, I don't think they realized how much it changed.
  • Because of course, it didn't change overnight.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: No.
  • It changed gradually.
  • PAUL HANEY: It was a gradual process over five years.
  • But for someone who left and then
  • came back to visit, the degree of change was highly--
  • I mean, I can remember just being amazed
  • when I came back to Rochester.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Now, the influx of workers, shall we say,
  • these weren't students.
  • PAUL HANEY: No.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Because-- correct me if I'm wrong, Paul--
  • between 1850 and 1900, you had the growth of RIT--
  • PAUL HANEY: You mean 1900 and 1950?
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Well University of Rochester
  • was founded in the late 1800s--
  • PAUL HANEY: 1800s.
  • Right.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: --And Mechanics' Institute was also founded
  • in the late 1800s.
  • And that changed and grew and eventually established itself
  • as RIT, right?
  • PAUL HANEY: Yeah, Mechanics' Institute, or RIT,
  • their real growth has been a much more recent factor.
  • It's really fascinating how RIT has grown and changed.
  • And I don't think most long time Rochesterians,
  • it's older Rochesterians, I don't think they still
  • understand how RIT changed.
  • RIT was-- calling it Mechanics' Institute
  • was a very apt name for it.
  • Because they did not grant for it.
  • They didn't have any four year diploma programs.
  • Even when I was young they didn't have any four year
  • diploma programs.
  • It was a trade school.
  • And for example, Rochester had a very large printing industry.
  • The stuff that was printed in Rochester was really amazing.
  • And so they had a very well recognized printing program.
  • The tool and die industry was always big in Rochester,
  • so they had programs and everything related to the tool
  • and die industry.
  • But even going into the 1950s and 1960s,
  • they were still a place where people went and got two year
  • associate degrees.
  • Remember, this is before the community college existed.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
  • PAUL HANEY: And so at RIT was, to my knowledge,
  • almost exclusively a two year associate school.
  • And of course they were located downtown, right downtown,
  • and very landlocked.
  • And it wasn't until they moved to Henrietta
  • which, I think that was in the late sixties, 1970s.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
  • PAUL HANEY: I don't know exactly when.
  • It wasn't until they moved to Henrietta that they even
  • began to grant four year degrees, so that the RIT
  • or Mechanics' Institute that existed up
  • until the mid-sixties or so really bears
  • almost no comparison to the RIT that exists today.
  • The university, on the other hand,
  • the university was always sort of a stodgy, stuffy place.
  • It was stuck up there on the river which, at that time,
  • was sort of the edge of civilization as we knew it.
  • And there was very little, if any interface.
  • Very few Rochesterians went to the university
  • because it was always very expensive.
  • Whereas RIT was virtually exclusively Rochesterians,
  • the U of R was--
  • well, not exclusively, but pretty close to exclusively
  • out of town people.
  • And especially after the women moved from University Avenue
  • to the river campus, they lived really in isolation up there.
  • And the general community had very little interface
  • with the University of Rochester.
  • And in fact, many would say that that continued.
  • I mean, I was part of a very interesting discussion just
  • last last week.
  • Joel Seligman, the current president of the U of R,
  • has had a dramatic impact on the U of R.
  • And he has almost made it a mission
  • to integrate the university with the broader community.
  • But until that time, people would pay lip service to it.
  • But by and large, the university was isolated out there.
  • I can remember in--
  • this would have been in probably the late seventies--
  • Chris Lindley was the south district councilman
  • from the south district being primarily the Nineteenth
  • Ward and those environments.
  • And he was championing the construction
  • of a pedestrian bridge across the river,
  • from the River Campus, basically,
  • to where the end of Brooks Avenue is.
  • And the reason for that was that there were students living
  • in the Nineteenth Ward, there was faculty members
  • living in the Nineteenth Ward, it
  • was as a convenience to them.
  • The university wanted nothing to do with that.
  • The university fought-- fought is the operative word--
  • the university fought that the construction at the foot bridge
  • across the river up there for years.
  • And it ultimately only occurred because--
  • and I don't know what the driving force for this
  • was at the university--
  • but hockey was becoming a popular sport,
  • and the university decided it wanted to have a hockey team.
  • And of course, the construction of hockey arenas is a fairly--
  • they're not only expensive to build,
  • they're expensive to operate because of the refrigeration
  • equipment that you need.
  • So the idea was concocted that the university and the city
  • would cooperate on the building of an ice rink.
  • The city had an ice rink at Genesee Valley Park
  • by the river.
  • And the idea was concocted that in a partnership,
  • the city and the university would expand that facility,
  • and the university would have the right
  • to use it at certain times for their hockey team.
  • And the city laid down as a quid pro
  • quo that the university had to drop its objections
  • to the pedestrian bridge.
  • And the pedestrian bridge only got
  • built because, from the university's perspective,
  • they wanted the hockey facility more
  • and they didn't want the pedestrian bridge.
  • But the university lived in virtual isolation out there.
  • There wasn't much interface with the community.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: My impression from talking to other people
  • and reading my own reading, is that early,
  • between 1900 and 1950, there was a tremendous growth of industry
  • here in Rochester.
  • Fourteen to fifteen major corporations
  • came into existence.
  • And what they were looking for were
  • creative, innovative minds.
  • And the corporations were really a driving force
  • between bringing into the city such a diverse population.
  • Educated, but diverse.
  • PAUL HANEY: People used to be amazed at how different
  • Rochester was from Buffalo.
  • But it had to do with the nature of the employment in the two
  • cities.
  • Buffalo was based on broad shoulders and muscle.
  • It was a big railroad town.
  • Bethlehem Steel-- or Lackawanna Steel--
  • the Lackawanna steel plant employed thousands.
  • Well, a steel mill is a very different facility
  • from someplace where they make cameras
  • or film or optical goods or copying machines
  • or something like that.
  • So that the industry that developed in Rochester,
  • it was a high class industry.
  • It was clean industry.
  • And generally, we required more education.
  • And so that things like the percentage
  • of people in Rochester with post-high school educations
  • was always much higher than in Buffalo.
  • Because you didn't need a high school education
  • to work in the steel mills in Buffalo,
  • or down on the docks moving grain from ships
  • to railroad cars and that like.
  • Whereas in Rochester, if you wanted
  • to get ahead at Kodak or Xerox or any of those places,
  • you did.
  • And that was primarily what Mechanics' Institute--
  • that was what Mechanics' Institute did with all
  • of its two year programs.
  • It provided people with additional training
  • and education.
  • But Rochester always had what we called clean industry,
  • whereas Buffalo had, I guess if you just use
  • the opposite, dirty industry.
  • It was brains versus brawn.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
  • After you came back in 1968, within a couple of years
  • Stonewall happened.
  • And the University of Rochester became a focal point
  • for gay liberation and activism.
  • Do you recall any stories from that time?
  • I mean, once Stonewall happened, within two years
  • there were over four hundred Gay Liberation Front organizations
  • that grew up across the country, mostly in universities, mostly
  • on college campuses.
  • PAUL HANEY: What year was Stonewall?
  • What year was Stonewall?
  • EVELYN BAILEY: 1969.
  • PAUL HANEY: Oh, OK.
  • It was right after I left New York.
  • Yeah, OK.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
  • And in 1970, the Gay Liberation Front
  • began at the University of Rochester.
  • However, that was a combination of university students
  • and community people.
  • And at that time, there were no communication avenues other
  • than the bars, other than--
  • there wasn't even-- well, the empty closet began in 1971,
  • but that was a year or so later.
  • And that became a major vehicle of communicating
  • with the community what was happening.
  • But what has always fascinated me about that development was
  • the gay brotherhood eventually became political.
  • And it became the political caucus of the alliance,
  • versus having the alliance be a political advocacy group
  • because of its 501(c)(3) status, the political caucus became
  • very active, and many of the people who were involved
  • in leadership positions in the Gay Liberation Front in the Gay
  • Alliance, all of a sudden were catapulted into political life,
  • Tim Mains being the first, but Sue Cowell, Bill Pritchard.
  • And I know--
  • PAUL HANEY: Bill Pritchard's a kid.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
  • I know there was a gay life in Rochester,
  • separate from the bars.
  • PAUL HANEY: I really don't know anything
  • about the development of that.
  • I wasn't part of it or anything.
  • I mean, when I came back to Rochester,
  • there were a couple of gay bars in town where you socialized,
  • et cetera.
  • But aside from that, I really don't know anything
  • about the formal development of the community
  • or the political action.
  • Remember, I was a--
  • well, I still am, obviously--
  • a CPA.
  • And I worked for one of the National Public Accounting
  • firms.
  • And I mean, it was still very much
  • an era in which I don't remember consciously thinking
  • about this, but it was just understood that if you intended
  • to have any kind of a future in the profession or with one of--
  • in those days, we used to talk about the big eight.
  • Now there's only four of them left.
  • But if you intended, you lived a very straight life.
  • It just-- it was never said, but you just knew
  • that that's the way it was.
  • And that's what I was--
  • I mean, I was part of the profession.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
  • PAUL HANEY: I was, at that time, foolishly,
  • you know, looking at a career in public accounting.
  • So I--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: When did you become involved in politics?
  • PAUL HANEY: Oh, Lord.
  • See, my mother and father were involved in politics.
  • They were committee people down in the old Tenth Ward.
  • Oh god, my mother became involved in politics in 1928
  • in the Al Smith election.
  • And she used to tell brutal stories about the Al Smith
  • election which, of course, was rife with the worst
  • kinds of bigotry and discrimination, et cetera.
  • Because Al Smith, of course, was an Irish Catholic.
  • In fact, my grandmother became an election inspector
  • up in the old Twentieth ward the first year
  • that women had had the vote.
  • And she was an election inspector up there.
  • Even when I was a little kid I can remember my sister
  • taking me up and visiting her at the voting
  • booth on Silver Street in the old Twentieth Ward up there.
  • So I was sort of born into it.
  • And I always found it very interesting.
  • I had no interest in sports whatsoever.
  • And I just always found it very interesting.
  • I mean, the joke I'd tell--
  • and it's not a joke, it's absolutely real--
  • my first involvement in real politics occurred in 1950.
  • I would have been nine years old.
  • And there was a man by the name--
  • I still remember his name.
  • His name was Walter Lynch, who was running
  • for governor against Tom Dewey.
  • And in the fall, I can remember my mother
  • loading up my little red wagon with campaign literature
  • for Walter Lynch and sending me out to go door to door,
  • stuffing pieces of campaign literature
  • under people's doors.
  • And this was still an era in which,
  • I mean, today, to send a nine-year-old out going door
  • to door, a parent would probably be arrested for child
  • abuse or neglect or something.
  • But I mean, my mother knew everybody in the neighborhood.
  • Everybody in the neighborhood knew her and knew me, etc.
  • Those neighborhoods were very stable at that time,
  • and it was no big, big deal, but I jokingly
  • tell people that I was nine years old when
  • I did my first political thing.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And when was your next political thing
  • at a much--
  • PAUL HANEY: Well, a very strange thing occurred.
  • When I came back from Rochester, of course
  • my mother and father were still committee people,
  • and I became a committeeman down in--
  • this was 1969, down in the old--
  • the wards had been changed around
  • and it was now the Ninth Ward.
  • And the Democrats were in control of city council,
  • yes, of city council and of the city.
  • Course, this was under the council form of the council
  • manager form of government.
  • And it was still very much an era of patronage,
  • and virtually everybody that worked in government
  • was connected to political parties, et cetera.
  • And a political battle erupted in the Ninth Ward.
  • And two men were vehemently battling
  • to be the leader of the Ninth Ward.
  • And to be a ward leader or, I mean,
  • I'll call it district leader, in those days,
  • was a position of substance.
  • You, to a certain degree, controlled access
  • to city employment.
  • It was old fashioned politics.
  • And they became absolutely locked
  • in a head-to-head battle.
  • And the committee in the Ninth Ward
  • was virtually split right down the middle between them.
  • And it was so evenly split that neither of them
  • could really win.
  • Win-win.
  • And I mean, I'd only been back in Rochester for a year
  • and pleasantly enjoying life.
  • And the phone rang one day, and it was a man
  • by the name of Bob Quigley, who was democratic county
  • chairman at the time.
  • And I had never even met Bob Quigley.
  • And he asked me to come and meet him in his office, and I did.
  • And I couldn't figure out why he wanted to talk to me.
  • And when I got there, I found out
  • he wanted me to become Ninth Ward leader.
  • And I was stunned.
  • Why me?
  • And what had taken place was there
  • was a key city election coming up in 1969.
  • And he did not want to go into the election with the Ninth
  • Ward split down the middle in an inter-party division.
  • And he had been talking to the people in the Ninth Ward,
  • and because of my mother and father's long involvement,
  • people knew my parents.
  • They knew me.
  • Everybody liked my parents.
  • Everybody liked the kid that just moved home.
  • And I was acceptable as a compromise candidate.
  • And both of the other two men agreed to back off.
  • It was kind of funny.
  • They both thought they were going
  • to be able to control me is one of the reasons they both backed
  • off.
  • And so in just an absolute quirk,
  • I became the leader of the Ninth Ward in April of 1969.
  • Well, then in the November election
  • that year, the Democrats proceeded to lose the election.
  • And the Republicans elected enough people
  • that they took five to four control of the city council.
  • Well, most of the people, as I said,
  • it was still a patronage era.
  • So most of the leaders in the party,
  • and a big number of the members of the committee,
  • et cetera, had city jobs.
  • Well, when the Democrats lost control of the city
  • in November, they fled for the hills,
  • I mean, never to be seen again.
  • And all of a sudden, people--
  • it's a game of which you looked around the room
  • and there were damn few of us left in the room.
  • And so that all of a sudden, not only
  • wasn't a bizarre quirk that I became the leader of the Ninth
  • Ward, it was just due to what occurred in the election
  • that I was one of the few people still standing on their feet
  • after election day.
  • So as the party tried to reconstitute itself,
  • in the aftermath of that defeat, it
  • wasn't that my charm, good looks and intelligence
  • moved me forward.
  • It was that I was breathing.
  • And the fact that I was breathing and had
  • a decent head on my shoulders in a very diminished group
  • of people, all of a sudden there was a few of us
  • that sort of stood out.
  • And the party went through some pitched battles,
  • then, for control of the party.
  • They lost city hall in '69.
  • In 1970, a group called the Democratic Action Coalition
  • tried to take over the party and failed.
  • And then in '72, they tried again
  • to take over the party, this time with Larry Kerwin
  • as their candidate for county chairman.
  • And I was not part of that group.
  • I fought them tooth and nail.
  • But the DAC faction took over in '72,
  • and Larry Kerwin became chairman.
  • And I remained-- I had won the primary battle in the Ninth
  • Ward.
  • Whereas most of the rest of the city,
  • the DAC had won the primary.
  • People don't even know the position exists,
  • but there's positions called county committee people.
  • And the city is divided up into, I don't know,
  • four hundred election districts.
  • And there's committee people in every single district.
  • And they elect the county chair.
  • And now, usually, you're forced to struggle to find
  • somebody willing to take it.
  • But that was a time in which two or three people wanted it.
  • So there actually were election battles for who would be--
  • the elections around primary day--
  • who would be their committee people.
  • And I had won the primary.
  • I had led a group that won the primary in the Ninth Ward.
  • Most of the rest of the city, the DAC people,
  • won the primary.
  • Larry Kerwin was elected chairman
  • of the county committee.
  • I was very much an outsider.
  • Well, that was in September '72 that that battle was fought.
  • In the winter of '72-'73, some people in the Ninth Ward came
  • to me and said, "Why don't you run for city council next
  • year?"
  • And I really wanted nothing to do with it.
  • You know, I was busy with my public accounting
  • career, et cetera, et cetera.
  • And so I really didn't think much of it.
  • Then Larry Kerwin was probably one
  • of the smartest, cleverest politicians
  • that I've ever met or known.
  • He really was something else.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: He reigned for quite a while.
  • PAUL HANEY: Oh, yes, very much so.
  • And it was the glory days of the local democratic party.
  • And I mean, I had fought him tooth and nail
  • over the county chairmanship.
  • And sometime as we began to move into '73,
  • he actually contacted me and he suggested
  • that I run for city council.
  • And I was dumbfounded, because I had just finished up
  • a battle in which I'd been clubbing him
  • with a two-by-four.
  • I failed, but I was part of the old guard, you know?
  • It was very much the old guard, a very young member
  • of the old guard, but a member of the old guard.
  • And here, the victor is asking me to run for city council.
  • Well Larry-- I didn't really grasp
  • what was occurring at the time, but in fact,
  • Larry being the very smart astute politician that he was,
  • knew that going into the 1973 election
  • he needed to try to unify the party.
  • And how better to unify the party
  • than to nominate one of the people who'd
  • been clubbing him with a two-by-four
  • to run for city council?
  • And it was part of the political astuteness of Larry Kerwin
  • that A, that he thought about that, and B,
  • that he could do it.
  • Most people in that position who had won that kind of a fight
  • would never have thought of bringing in somebody
  • from the other side.
  • But he was astute enough that he knew
  • it would serve his purpose, and his purpose
  • being winning the November 1973 election.
  • So it ended up, I mean it was just--
  • of course, being on this end of life,
  • I've decided that those young people that
  • think they have their life planned out for themselves,
  • I just laugh about it.
  • Because life is made up of twists and turns, and--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: You never know.
  • PAUL HANEY: You never know.
  • And if in February of '69 anybody had suggested to me,
  • or even in February of '72, if anybody had suggested
  • to me that I'd have been a city council candidate in November
  • of '73, I'd have told them they were out of their cotton
  • picking mind.
  • But it was just a series of very weird twists and turns
  • that led to that.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And you won.
  • PAUL HANEY: And we won.
  • We were the first class of beneficiaries
  • from the Watergate scandal.
  • And the makeup of the city council going into the election
  • was five to four Republican.
  • So we knew we had to elect, and there was
  • five at large council members.
  • And we knew we had to elect three of them
  • to take control of the city.
  • We only had one incumbent running,
  • Frank Lamb was running for re-election.
  • So the other four of us were all first time candidates,
  • and we knew we had to elect three.
  • And we thought that we had a good shot at electing three.
  • Because there had been a series of scandals
  • involving the city government, the Republican city government.
  • We still had two very competitive daily newspapers
  • in town, and they both had very good--
  • Jay Gallagher and John, I can't remember what his name was--
  • who covered city government for The Democrat and The Times
  • Union.
  • Both very good reporters, wrote some very good stuff.
  • And so we thought we had a good chance at electing three,
  • maybe four.
  • Well, what happened was ten days before the election day in 1973
  • was the Saturday Night Massacre, in which President Nixon fired
  • Archibald Cox and--
  • I can't remember his name.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Hinckley?
  • PAUL HANEY: Hm?
  • And the guy that was attorney general
  • and became famous as the Saturday Night Massacre.
  • And--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Alderman?
  • PAUL HANEY: No, they were insiders in the White House.
  • Anyways, I think he demanded that the attorney general--
  • Archibald Cox was the special investigator
  • had been appointed to investigate Watergate.
  • He demanded that the attorney general fire Archibald Cox.
  • The attorney general refused to fire Archibald Cox.
  • So Nixon fired the attorney general, brought
  • in a new Attorney General.
  • The new attorney general immediately
  • fired Archibald Cox.
  • In fact, I think they went through--
  • I think there were three people that were dismissed.
  • It happened on a Saturday night, and it became known
  • as the Saturday Night Massacre.
  • It electrified the nation.
  • It just electrified the nation.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Here in Rochester?
  • PAUL HANEY: Every place.
  • People were just-- the Watergate scandal had
  • been sort of percolating for some time,
  • but this just electrified the nation.
  • Course, in those days, still, the city
  • was very much the dominant entity in the county.
  • Majority of the population lived in the city.
  • And as part of running for city office,
  • you worked factory gates.
  • And you'd go out to the factories early
  • in the morning when the people were going in
  • and shake hands and hand out literature.
  • You wouldn't do it today because 80 percent of the people you'd
  • meet didn't live in the city.
  • But in those days, you could do it.
  • 60-70 percent of them lived in the city.
  • And I remember the next week being
  • down at the old DuPont Factory on Driving Park Avenue,
  • about seven o'clock in the morning.
  • The guys are coming up the walk going in
  • and I look down the walk, and I saw a man coming up
  • the walk who was an old line Tenth Ward Republican
  • committeeman, and the type that really
  • liked to rub your face in it.
  • Phil (unintelligible) was his name.
  • And I saw him coming and I just said to myself, "Christ, I
  • wonder what he's going to say to me this time."
  • Because he was always trying to rub something in my face.
  • But you know, as a politician running for office,
  • you learn to grit your face and dig your feet in,
  • and that light.
  • So he came up to me.
  • He's coming up with the guys coming up the walk.
  • And he gets up to me and he grabs me by the arm,
  • and he pulls me real close to him so that he was whispering
  • in my ear, and he says-- now here's a rock-ribbed
  • Republican--
  • and he whispers in my ear, I will never
  • forget it, he whispers in my ear, "Don't worry, Paul.
  • We're going to get those sons of bitches."
  • Quote, end of quote.
  • I mean, this was only like three or four days after the Saturday
  • Night Massacre.
  • We didn't realize it yet, and it didn't become really apparent
  • until election day, but the nation
  • was riveted by this concept.
  • And the outcome of the election locally
  • was, whereas we thought we had the chance
  • to elect three of the five councilmen,
  • we elected all five.
  • Betty Pine was elected to family court judge.
  • Bill Lombard was elected sheriff.
  • They were the first two Democrats
  • elected to county wide offices since 1948
  • during the Truman election.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Wow.
  • PAUL HANEY: From '48 to '73, no Democrat had ever
  • won a county-wide election.
  • And they both won election.
  • Betty Pine went on to be a Supreme Court judge.
  • And it was just electric.
  • And it was really Richard Nixon that did it for us.
  • And of course the Watergate Effect
  • lasted two or three years.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
  • PAUL HANEY: But it electrified people, and we ended up--
  • whereas we hoped to have a five-four city council,
  • we had an eight-one city council.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And how long were you on city council for that?
  • PAUL HANEY: I took office on January 1, 1974
  • and left on December 31, 1985.
  • I was on twelve years.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: So you were there when CETA came through.
  • What were your recollections about that, if you have any?
  • PAUL HANEY: Yeah, the CETA thing was
  • what was really interesting.
  • We thought, of course, CETA was a federal program, lot
  • of money, for job creation, et cetera.
  • And the idea was to--
  • it was aimed at primarily young people and giving them jobs.
  • And it really was a wonderful program.
  • And we thought we had constructed--
  • because I mean, it had the potential for terrible abuse.
  • I mean, it could have been just--
  • and in many cities was a huge patronage mill.
  • And we didn't want that.
  • We wanted an honestly run program
  • that was going to benefit people, et cetera, et cetera.
  • So we thought we had done a most honorable thing
  • in subcontracting with the United Way to run the program.
  • And we retained a piece of it and hired people who
  • directly worked for the city.
  • But the biggest chunk of the CETA money
  • we contracted with the United Way.
  • And the United Way was to go out and enlist
  • not-for-profit organizations to create job sites
  • and to fund these job sites.
  • And the entities would hire unemployed people, usually
  • young people, to take these jobs.
  • And they did that.
  • And they went about it very forthrightly, et cetera.
  • And there were--
  • I don't remember.
  • But there had to have been thirty
  • or forty not-for-profits.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
  • PAUL HANEY: That became involved in this through the United Way.
  • And one of them was the Gay Alliance.
  • And I don't know that we even knew it,
  • because we turned the program over to the United Way,
  • and frankly, we didn't want to know.
  • We wanted them to go out and run a good program.
  • Well, somehow or other, and I don't
  • remember how this occurred, it came out in the public.
  • It became public knowledge that one
  • of the entities that the United Way was dealing with
  • was the Gay Alliance.
  • And there was a segment of the community
  • that went nuts about this.
  • There was a fundamentalist Protestant church
  • up on Brooks Avenue in the Nineteenth Ward.
  • And their quote "minister" end of quote
  • was a man by the name of Fletcher Brothers, who
  • was probably one of the most disgusting individuals I ever
  • came across in my life.
  • His background was that he was a failed used car
  • dealer from Watertown.
  • And he came to Rochester.
  • I don't know how he ever got in the religion business,
  • but he did.
  • He founded this church up there.
  • And he attracted, well, what I call the nut cases.
  • But he attracted a big following.
  • And he was a very flamboyant individual.
  • He had a big booming baritone voice and everything,
  • and he was somewhat charismatic, charismatic in the sense
  • that Adolf Hitler was charismatic, but nonetheless
  • charismatic.
  • And he needed a cause, and he made this his cause.
  • And of course it became a great rallying cry, et cetera.
  • Well, unfortunately, the United Way lost its guts.
  • And when they realized that there was going to be--
  • not going to be, that there was controversy about this--
  • they backed away.
  • And I can't remember whether they first
  • said that they were going to drop the Gay Alliance
  • or whether they just went right to the mat and said,
  • we want out, period.
  • I can't remember how that worked.
  • But at any rate, they ended up out of the picture,
  • and the program came back to being a city program.
  • Because up till this point, the city took that position
  • when people ranted and raved at the city about allowing
  • the government money to go to the Gay Alliance,
  • our position had been, it's not our decision.
  • You know, we gave the money to the United Way,
  • and they did whatever they thought was best.
  • Well, course, in retrospect that put the United Way even more
  • in the bull's eye.
  • So anyways-- and I can't remember
  • exactly how that divorce occurred,
  • but the divorce occurred.
  • The whole CETA program ended up back in the city's lap.
  • And oh, there were some wild city council meetings,
  • because this Fletcher Brothers character--
  • and he enlisted some of the fundamentalist preachers--
  • and oh, they were just--
  • we had some disgusting city council meetings.
  • And it also was the first time.
  • And the only one whose name I can recall is Tim Mains.
  • It was the first time that I ever met Tim Mains.
  • But there was only like four or five or six
  • people that began coming to the council meetings representing
  • the Gay Alliance.
  • One was--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Michael Robertson.
  • PAUL HANEY: Yes, that's right, Michael Robertson.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And probably Bob Crystal.
  • PAUL HANEY: I don't recall that name.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Maybe Patti Evans?
  • PAUL HANEY: I think I recall that name.
  • There's a guy that's a realtor, works for Nothnagle,
  • lives up in Cornhill?
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Richard Sarkis?
  • PAUL HANEY: Richard Sarkis was somewhat part of it,
  • I think, although not as active as the others were.
  • And at any rate, I honestly don't
  • recall that there was any hesitation
  • on the part of the city council members about the issue.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Charlie Schiano raised--
  • PAUL HANEY: Yeah, Charlie Schiano was a nut case.
  • Charlie Schiano played to the audience.
  • I mean, if the audience wanted to burn Joan of Arc,
  • Charlie Schiano would have cheered them on and led them.
  • But I mean, in the eight member Democratic caucus,
  • I can't recall any substantial even discussions.
  • Course, we were all of a liberal bent to begin with.
  • And I really can't recall in our caucuses
  • at all that there was any serious thought ever
  • given to not funding the Gay Alliance.
  • And the program went forward, and of course the Gay Alliance
  • was funded.
  • The bigger battle, really, I mean
  • that battle was key in that it was the first public battle.
  • And the Alliance won the battle.
  • But while the public persona of it
  • was that it was a tremendous battle, as I say,
  • I don't remember that in the council
  • it ever was really much of an issue.
  • The bigger battle came over when the Chamber--
  • and this was a few years later.
  • I don't remember what year it was.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: 1980?
  • PAUL HANEY: Yeah, that would be about right.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: When the Chamber of Commerce refused.
  • PAUL HANEY: Right.
  • And the Gay Men's Chorus had been formed.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
  • PAUL HANEY: And I have always believed that the Gay Men's
  • Chorus had a profound impact, way beyond, I think,
  • what people realized.
  • Because it demonstrated that homosexual people
  • didn't have horns.
  • And that was 80-90 percent of the battle.
  • So the Gay Men's Chorus was formed,
  • had begun to be popular, was building an audience base.
  • And at that time, the Chamber of Commerce
  • owned the building at 55 St. Paul Street.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
  • PAUL HANEY: And up on the third floor of the building,
  • they had what they called the Great Hall of the Chamber.
  • It was a very nice big room.
  • And the Chamber of Commerce used to rent it out
  • for all kinds of special events.
  • There used to be a lot of dinners
  • that were held up there.
  • This was before the convention center opened.
  • There used to be a lot of dinners held up there.
  • It was a very nice room.
  • And they had rented the great, what
  • was called the quote "Great Hall," end of quote,
  • of the Chamber of Commerce for the concert, for their spring--
  • I think it was their spring concert.
  • And a guy by the name of Tom Mooney, who
  • was an active Republican, he'd been Assistant City Manager
  • and Assistant County Manager under Republican governments,
  • et cetera--
  • was the Director of the Chamber of Commerce.
  • And I don't know how this occurred,
  • because I can't believe that somebody
  • at the Chamber of Commerce signed
  • a lease with the Gay Mens' Chorus
  • without Tom Mooney's knowledge.
  • But anyways, they had a valid lease.
  • And then it came out, publicly, that the chorus was holding
  • its concert in the Great Hall of the Chamber, and a to do
  • arose about that.
  • And Tom Mooney sort of had the backbone of any eel
  • or something to begin with.
  • And he, and probably illegally, if it was a valid lease,
  • but anyways, he announced he was voiding the lease.
  • And while the city had no ostensible role in that--
  • I mean, it was between the Chamber and the Gay Mens'
  • Chorus--
  • at that time I can remember that people on City Council
  • were outraged.
  • And I, admittedly, just sort of sat back and watched.
  • And I really was amazed at how some of my peers on the City
  • Council were genuinely outraged that the Chamber was
  • backtracking on this.
  • And course, there never was a great love
  • affair between Democrats and the Chamber of Commerce
  • to begin with, because the Chamber was always
  • Republican businessmen, and Democrats were union backers,
  • et cetera, et cetera, so that there never
  • was any love lost between the entities.
  • But there was genuine outrage.
  • And I can remember the one who really surprised
  • me most of all, was Tom Ryan.
  • Tom Ryan was outraged.
  • And course, it fascinated me, because here you
  • had a good, loyal son of Irish-Catholic parents,
  • and fit that whole old Catholic mold, et cetera.
  • And Tom was really outraged.
  • And it was interesting.
  • It could have been a dog lovers' society.
  • What he was outraged about was that somebody had a lease,
  • and then somebody wanted to try and void the lease because they
  • found out they didn't like something
  • about their potential tenant.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
  • PAUL HANEY: And it really--
  • I don't think, with Tom, I don't think the gay thing
  • was really that big an issue.
  • It was that a group of citizens--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Had legal rights.
  • PAUL HANEY: --had a legal right to use the place,
  • and now they were being denied their legal right.
  • So as I say, the city had no direct role in it.
  • And I honestly don't recall where they ended up
  • holding the concert.
  • But at that time, course, downtown
  • was still downtown Sibley's and midtown and all like that.
  • And the Christmas shopping season
  • was still a big deal, etc.
  • And the city had a contract, had had
  • for a few years, a contract with the Chamber of Commerce,
  • in which the city paid the Chamber of Commerce every year
  • a block of money.
  • I don't remember what it was.
  • Seems to me it was like forty or fifty thousand dollars.
  • And the Chamber took that money and used
  • it to put up decorations and light poles
  • downtown and that light.
  • And they also used to contract with the bus service
  • for free bus service on Sunday.
  • People could ride the buses.
  • The stores would be open the four Sundays before Christmas,
  • and people could ride the buses downtown free on the four
  • Sundays before Christmas.
  • And the city contracted with them--
  • and governments frequently will do this,
  • because when it's basically the CETA issue.
  • For governments to contract for things
  • is a very complex business.
  • And when you're dealing with things
  • that are going to involve many different pieces,
  • it's easier, much easier, for the government
  • to find one intermediary that it can contract with,
  • and then that intermediary can fan out to all the subentities.
  • So we had this contract with the Chamber.
  • And the issue came up, and the most outspoken
  • were Chris Lindley and Tom Ryan, that the Chamber
  • had to be punished for what it had
  • done to the Gay Mens' Chorus.
  • And whereas I don't remember any conflict in my caucus
  • about the CETA situation, there was
  • conflict in the caucus about punishing the Chamber.
  • Some people were just afraid to take on the Chamber.
  • Some people didn't want the city to get involved
  • in an issue that the city wasn't directly involved in,
  • et cetera.
  • And one of the things that had changed in between the two
  • was Midge Costanza had left the council,
  • and Ruth Scott came on the council.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
  • Stop there for just a minute.
  • Midge was elected to City Council.
  • PAUL HANEY: In '73 with the five of us.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: But she was not the first woman
  • to be elected to council.
  • Was she?
  • PAUL HANEY: Yes, she was.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: OK.
  • And she was also the person who got the most votes.
  • PAUL HANEY: Right.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And my understanding
  • is the person who got the most votes was
  • to be Council Chair, or--
  • PAUL HANEY: No.
  • That's the story that got circulated,
  • but there never was any such process.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: But she became Vice Mayor.
  • PAUL HANEY: Right.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And had she been a man,
  • would she have become mayor?
  • PAUL HANEY: No.
  • I can guarantee it.
  • There are stories about Midge that--
  • I was invited to participate in providing information
  • to a woman a year ago from California
  • who was writing a biography of her, to which my response is,
  • my mother always told me, never to speak ill of the dead.
  • Midge was a very two-sided individual.
  • There was the side that the public saw,
  • and there was a very different other side.
  • And Midge never would have been elected mayor.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: But she was very popular.
  • PAUL HANEY: Oh, enormously popular.
  • Let me give you one example of why she was popular.
  • And this occurred during the election in '73.
  • At that time, the so-called "line"
  • as they used to refer it, was Clifford Avenue.
  • South of Clifford Avenue was black, north of Clifford Avenue
  • was white.
  • The line had begun to move north.
  • In those days, there were realtors
  • who were engaged in what was called blockbusting,
  • a disgusting activity which we ultimately passed
  • some legislation to outlaw.
  • But it was very hard to deal with,
  • because it was very hard to prove that they were doing it.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
  • PAUL HANEY: And there was some less than honorable realtors
  • who had begun the blockbusting process
  • north of Clifford Avenue.
  • And the line was moving towards Avenue D,
  • and ultimately, was to move to Norton Street.
  • Now I guess you'd say it's Ridge Road.
  • I don't know if there is a line.
  • And the northeast part of the city, still at that time,
  • north of Clifford Avenue, was Polish, Ukrainian,
  • a lot of immigrants, very heavily first generation,
  • et cetera.
  • Who were genuinely frightened, personally
  • frightened about the movement of African-Americans
  • into their community.
  • And these realtors, as I say, were
  • engaging in blockbusting, in which the realtors were
  • scaring them.
  • Because the way blockbusting worked was
  • you got one black family to move onto a street.
  • You then, you being the dishonorable realtor,
  • then went to all the other people on the street
  • and said, "You know, this street is
  • turning into an African-American community.
  • You better get out.
  • I'll list your house and I'll get the best price I can,
  • but you better sell right now.
  • Because in six months, this street will be gone."
  • And they would panic people.
  • And you would go over to the northeast side of the city,
  • and you would see twelve, fifteen, "for sale" signs
  • in a block, on both sides of a street,
  • and you would know that a realtor had been there doing
  • blockbusting.
  • And these people were scared.
  • So we had a candidates forum at the old Lincoln Branch
  • Library, which used to be at the corner of Clifford and Clinton
  • Avenues.
  • And the people there were people from the area
  • north of Clifford Avenue.
  • And their issue was "those people," quote end of quote,
  • have to be kept out.
  • Midge said to them, "I agree with you."
  • Now, she was not endorsing blockbusting,
  • or she was not endorsing discrimination
  • against black people.
  • But Midge had an insatiable need to be liked.
  • So she agreed with them.
  • And I don't honestly believe she understood
  • what she was agreeing with, because in their mind,
  • she was agreeing to keep the black people out
  • of the Polish neighborhoods.
  • From that place, very same night, we went to a meeting
  • at--
  • the five of us, the five candidates--
  • went to a meeting at the Black Eagles
  • Club, which was located up on Clarissa Street.
  • And this was a meeting with leadership
  • of the black community.
  • And their big issue was--
  • there was a city police captain who was black--
  • their big issue was they wanted a black appointed police chief.
  • And they wanted this individual--
  • they wanted commitments that this individual would
  • be appointed police chief.
  • Right out of the box, Midge agreed with them,
  • that this individual should be appointed police chief.
  • The other four of us are saying things like, "Well, yes, we
  • absolutely agree with you.
  • We need to have the very best police chief we can have.
  • It needs to be somebody whose understanding
  • of all elements of the community, you know,
  • what some would call the pablum."
  • But we certainly weren't going to make a commitment
  • to hire anybody as police chief.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
  • PAUL HANEY: And I can remember, we walked out of there
  • about ten o'clock, and Midge went on her way.
  • And Chris Lindley had shown up as an observer.
  • He wasn't running-- as an observer.
  • So the five of us, that is, the other four at large candidates
  • and Chris, I can remember the four
  • of us standing on the sidewalk on Clarissa
  • Street outside the Black Eagles Club
  • saying, "My god, what are we going to do?"
  • Because in the space of two hours,
  • Midge had given totally opposite messages to two
  • bitterly opposed factions in the community.
  • Now, I don't think she intended to do harm.
  • I don't think she even realized what she had done.
  • But she had an insatiable desire to be liked,
  • and the result is, without thinking
  • about the consequences, she would
  • say whatever came to her mind that she
  • thought would please the group that was in front of her.
  • And these groups-- today, people in the press would do it.
  • Course, both of these, there was no press
  • at either of these meetings.
  • And I don't think she'd be able to get away with it today.
  • And as I say, I don't think there was anything
  • intentionally evil on her part.
  • It's just the way she was.
  • So that the result was everybody liked her
  • because she told everybody--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: What they wanted to hear.
  • PAUL HANEY: --what they wanted to hear.
  • And we knew that.
  • And there was no way she ever would have been elected mayor.
  • But she spreads the story that it was "traditional,"
  • end of quote, for the high vote getter to be elected mayor.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
  • PAUL HANEY: And there was absolutely no tradition
  • of that nature, whatsoever.
  • None.
  • So anyways, back to the Chamber of Commerce.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: The punishment of the Chamber.
  • PAUL HANEY: And we had some heated discussions about it.
  • 'Cause I say, some people didn't want
  • to get involved in the issue.
  • Some people didn't want to take on the Chamber of Commerce.
  • And it always interested me that the two people who
  • really were most outspoken-- well, the first one
  • didn't surprise me.
  • Chris Lindley was very outspoken,
  • but Chris Lindley was a liberal of the old school, et cetera.
  • So it was sort of natural for him.
  • But the other one who was very much outspoken was Tom Ryan.
  • And Tom Ryan-- it became almost a personal crusade with him
  • that the Chamber had to be punished for doing what it did.
  • The biggest problem, and slowly the other members of council
  • came around in the end, and I really
  • almost hesitate to say this, the biggest problem was Ruth Scott.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Hm.
  • PAUL HANEY: Ruth Scott, active member
  • of a prominent black church, et cetera,
  • did not want to do something that appeared--
  • and again, this was contrary to her public persona,
  • because Ruth was clearly a liberal.
  • But she was very much against doing something that appeared
  • to benefit the gay community.
  • And she resisted seriously.
  • Now, when it ultimately came to a vote--
  • course Charlie Schiano voted.
  • The vote became to rescind the contract
  • that the city had with the Chamber over the Christmas
  • decorations, et cetera.
  • And course Charlie Schiano would be against that.
  • He always went with the peanut gallery.
  • How Ruth ultimately voted, I do not recall.
  • But in caucus, she was the last holdout
  • about punishing the Chamber for throwing the Gay Mens' Chorus
  • out of the Great Hall.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Did City Council revoke?
  • PAUL HANEY: Oh, yes.
  • City Council revoked the contract.
  • There was some bitterness.
  • There was, you know, bitterness in the community about it,
  • et cetera, but oh yes, city council revoked the contract
  • and severed its relationship with the Chamber.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: I mean, the other thing
  • was that the Gay Alliance wanted to hold its annual meeting
  • at the Chamber of Commerce.
  • And they were refused.
  • PAUL HANEY: Wanted to what?
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Wanted to hold its annual meeting--
  • PAUL HANEY: Oh, did they?
  • Oh, I didn't know that.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: --at the Chamber of Commerce,
  • and they were refused.
  • PAUL HANEY: Oh, I didn't know that.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: That's when Jackie Nudd was president.
  • PAUL HANEY: Oh, OK.
  • I don't recall knowing that.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And there was a huge uproar in the community,
  • and people picketed Tom Mooney's house.
  • PAUL HANEY: I don't remember that at all.
  • Isn't that interesting?
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And I believe, I'm not positive,
  • but at some point in the future, the Gay Men's Chorus
  • did have a concert at the Chamber
  • in order to set right the action.
  • PAUL HANEY: Yeah, there was.
  • It was quite a triumphal evening, if you will.
  • But yeah, I forget.
  • It was a good couple of years later.
  • But yes, ultimately the Gay Men's Chorus
  • did have a concert there to correct
  • the wrong that had taken place.
  • Yeah.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Paul, I need to stop, but I want to thank you,
  • and I really would like this conversation to continue.
  • Because from my perspective, it is
  • important to know the history of city
  • council and other happenings.
  • Because along those same lines, you
  • have anti-discrimination legislation,
  • and you have domestic partnerships,
  • and I value your historical perspective.
  • And some of the questions I asked in my email,
  • you know, what part did liberation
  • in the legacy of our forefathers have
  • in shaping the political environment here
  • in Rochester, the burnt over district, all of those
  • kinds of experiences which, whether or not
  • you claim it, impacts the community
  • and impacts the response of the community.
  • PAUL HANEY: Well, Rochester has always
  • been a very interesting place.
  • Rochester has a long, long history of being socially--
  • I always defined Rochester as socially liberal
  • and economically conservative.
  • And I mean, the long history of social liberalism
  • in this community--
  • I mean, people like Frederick Douglass and Susan B. Anthony,
  • and less better known ones like Red Emma, and--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Walter Rauschenbusch.
  • PAUL HANEY: Yeah.
  • You know, there's a real whole tradition of this in Rochester,
  • so that Rochester, while being an economically very
  • conservative place, could be a hotbed of abolition
  • and the women's right to vote.
  • And it had a very active socialist community
  • at one time, I mean rabid socialism.
  • And that's a tradition that I think you're right,
  • laid in some ways the ground--
  • like at one point, if you went back twenty years ago
  • when Rochester had accomplished several things
  • like the partners legislation, which all occurred
  • after I left the council.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
  • PAUL HANEY: But it occurred well before similar things
  • in Syracuse or Buffalo and that like.
  • People use to say to me, "Why is that happening in Rochester
  • but it hasn't happened in Syracuse, or Buffalo, or even
  • New York City?"
  • And people used to attribute it to people like Tim Mains
  • and that like.
  • And certainly Tim played--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: A role.
  • PAUL HANEY: And an extremely important role.
  • But I think the real reason why an activist like Tim
  • was able to do things like this was because there was
  • this long history of social liberalism in Rochester
  • that didn't exist in Buffalo.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
  • PAUL HANEY: And part of it goes back to what we first
  • talked about, that the socioeconomic educational level
  • in Rochester was always higher than it was in a Buffalo,
  • or even in a Syracuse, So that Rochester was always
  • a much more liberal community, socially liberal community.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Education and levels of education do that.
  • PAUL HANEY: Right.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Thank you.