Audio Interview, Paul Scheib, March 14, 2013
- EVELYN BAILEY: Today's date is March 14th Thursday.
- And I'm here with Paul Scheib, who
- was a past president of the Alliance
- and who was involved with ACT UP Rochester during the 80s.
- And so I want to begin kind of my discussion
- with Paul by asking, how did you become involved in the Gay
- Alliance?
- Or which came first, ACT UP or the Gay Alliance?
- PAUL SCHEIB: Oh.
- I think there were actually-- well,
- I mean they were simultaneous.
- But I think I was actually involved with the Gay Alliance
- previous to ACT UP.
- I think I was already sitting on the board of the Alliance
- before we first sort of organized ACT UP in Rochester.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And first of all, how did you
- come to be on the board?
- And second of all, how did you meet ACT UP?
- How did you get connected?
- PAUL SCHEIB: Well, I got involved with the Gay Alliance
- back in the day when the Gay Alliance--
- all gay organizations in the Rochester community
- were offered a seat on the board.
- So I served on the board of the Alliance
- as a representative from the Rochester Historical Bowling
- Society.
- And then through that Martin Hiraga
- was also on the board at the Alliance.
- And so it was through the Alliance that I met Martin.
- And Martin and I co-founded ACT UP together.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And tell me a little bit about Martin,
- and the formation of ACT UP.
- Was it his idea?
- Was it your idea?
- Did you--
- PAUL SCHEIB: It was very much his idea.
- I mean he was very in tune with what
- was going on with ACT UP on a national level.
- Especially ACT UP New York and New York City.
- He was much closer to the AIDS, the AIDS activist community
- than I was.
- And so it partly was Martin's dynamic personality
- that drew me to.
- EVELYN BAILEY: What was the purpose of ACT UP?
- PAUL SCHEIB: ACT UP serve to politicize
- and in some way to draw attention to the AIDS crisis.
- I mean because we were living through the Reagan
- administration where we had a president who for seven years
- while in office never mentioned the word AIDS.
- And so there are many people with HIV and people with AIDS
- who were being discriminated against in housing, employment,
- even in hospital settings where doctors, nurses were refusing
- to treat them.
- Pharmaceutical companies.
- The other big push for ACT UP was
- that the pharmaceutical companies weren't developing
- and bringing to market drugs at a quick enough pace
- to keep up with the crisis.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And was your focus on local, state, federal?
- PAUL SCHEIB: All of the above.
- I mean I think wherever there is an opportunity
- to draw attention or to link AIDS in the fight for people
- with AIDS and HIV to whatever political argument was going
- on, we used that.
- I mean I think one of our proudest moments
- was when the presidential debate in 1988
- was held at Eastman Theater.
- Because of the presence of ACT UP outside the Eastman Theater,
- the first question asked at that presidential debate to both
- candidates who in '88 was Walter Mondale and George Bush,
- George Bush Sr.--
- the first question posed to both of them was what would
- you do in the AIDS crisis.
- And that's the first time that that had ever been brought up
- in a presidential debate.
- And for that to be the very first question asked,
- well, that was a proud moment for us.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Would you identify
- that moment as the first time nationally those two candidates
- were asked to address the issue?
- PAUL SCHEIB: Yep.
- EVELYN BAILEY: So nowhere else in the country
- were they being asked about this?
- PAUL SCHEIB: Until that debate.
- Yeah.
- I mean it may have been.
- But it wasn't.
- I mean that obviously, drew the focus of the nation
- because it was the presidential debate.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- PAUL SCHEIB: And whether they were mentioning it
- in their stump speeches or not, I don't recall at that time.
- EVELYN BAILEY: What actions did you
- take as a group to bring focus to your desire
- to link AIDS and the political arena together?
- What were some of the actions here in Rochester?
- PAUL SCHEIB: Some of the actions in Rochester, I mean again,
- they were going on politically on the federal level,
- the federal government had restricted women's health
- services.
- And so we linked that women have HIV, women have AIDS.
- So linking that restriction on those rights for women,
- we linked that as well.
- So that was a major push when did a demonstration
- outside the federal building linking that.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Did you protest in other places?
- PAUL SCHEIB: Yeah.
- We took part in protests that were going on
- in Albany on a state level.
- We took part in protests that were going on
- at a national level outside the National Institute of Health
- in Bethesda, Maryland.
- So we were small, but we made sure
- that we were being represented.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Talk to me a little bit about Martin.
- What kind of a person was he?
- What gave him his chutzpah?
- His energy?
- PAUL SCHEIB: I don't know where he got
- all of his energy to be honest.
- He was a dynamic person who had the most infectious laugh.
- Anyone could tell you that it would just draw you in.
- But he was passionate.
- Pro or con, I don't think there is anything
- that he didn't have a passionate response for one
- way or the other.
- Again, he just had a dynamic force
- that you wanted to be around.
- I mean I think I'm richer for knowing him--
- for having known him.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Looking back, how effective would you
- say ACT UP Rochester was on the local level?
- And I know you weren't involved with New York City,
- but how effective was ACT UP on a national level?
- PAUL SCHEIB: On a local level, it's hard to assess.
- I mean I don't know the depths of the discrimination and such
- that was going on locally compared to
- on a more national level.
- I think ACT UP as an organization was much more
- effective on a national level, especially when you
- look at the demonstrations done in New York.
- You know stopping traffic on the Brooklyn Bridge
- or stopping traffic on Wall Street.
- The die ins that were done to demonstrate the amount
- of people who were dying.
- You know locally, I think part of our dilemma
- was that we never attracted a large number of people
- to the group.
- So it's hard to do mass things like that when you only
- have six or seven people.
- You know.
- That's where I think trying to tie
- in the other issues of the day was more important for us.
- EVELYN BAILEY: How long were you involved with ACT UP?
- How long was Martin here in Rochester?
- Do you recall?
- PAUL SCHEIB: It was only until around '90, '91
- or so that's when Martin moved to Washington DC.
- And so it was a brief time.
- It was probably only from like maybe '87 to '90
- or so that ACT UP Rochester really went on.
- And then when Martin left, I had other responsibilities.
- In '91 I became president of The Gay Alliance.
- So I had other things that came in.
- Knowing that I was president of The Alliance
- I couldn't quite be as--
- I didn't want to hurt The Alliance
- by continuing to be as radical as needed to be.
- I didn't want to hurt funding for The Alliance in any way.
- So I sort of stepped back as doing some of that.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Where does the parade in this development?
- PAUL SCHEIB: 1988 is when we did a march down Monroe Avenue.
- When we say we, I mean ACT UP did a march down Monroe Avenue.
- And then a kiss-in at the corner of Monroe Avenue and Goodman
- next to the Avenue Pub.
- So that in my opinion, and I think
- I'm the only one who holds that opinion,
- is the first gay pride parade in Rochester.
- So when everybody else claims the next year as the first,
- I don't because that for me was the first pride parade.
- EVELYN BAILEY: OK.
- PAUL SCHEIB: Though it wasn't billed as such.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Was is billed as an ACT UP--
- PAUL SCHEIB: It was.
- I was billed as an ACT UP function.
- I don't remember what the actual title of it was.
- But I'm not sure.
- You know.
- So yeah.
- But I mean the night was actually
- a commemoration of Stonewall because it took place
- on June 28th, the night of the anniversary of the Stonewall
- Riots.
- So that's what it was billed as.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And in the next year?
- PAUL SCHEIB: The next year we actually, you
- know, we applied--
- I applied for a permit from the city.
- And was granted a permit from the city.
- And so we marched down Main Street.
- We purposely wanted to be as public as possible.
- And we purposely wanted to be as disruptive as we could.
- So we chose to walk down Main Street starting
- at 6:00 PM on purpose.
- And so the parade route went from Crossroads Park
- at the corner behind the first federal building,
- and then it ended at the Liberty Pole at Liberty Square.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And how many years did you organize this?
- PAUL SCHEIB: I was the organizer of the parade the first five
- years of its existence.
- For the first six years because of the kiss-in the first year.
- EVELYN BAILEY: So from 1988 to 1994?
- PAUL SCHEIB: '93 I think it was.
- Yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: OK.
- And over that period of time, how did that parade, that event
- change?
- I mean did it grow in numbers?
- PAUL SCHEIB: It grew in numbers.
- I mean I remember in the very beginning,
- you know the first couple of years,
- there were more people who were willing to watch
- from the sidewalk than were willing to participate.
- And I think over the years, that number lessened--
- that more people are willing to participate in the parade.
- More people felt comfortable enough or whatever
- that they were able to.
- And I think part of it is because of the parade's
- existence that it gave them a sense of that they
- didn't have to worry about being out in their own community.
- Because there would be tons of people.
- And I mean prior to that, there would
- be tons of people who would go to New York for the pride
- parade or they go to Toronto for the pride parade.
- But it's different to march in your own town.
- If you were on TV in New York City,
- if you're on TV in Toronto, it's not going to be seen locally.
- But when you have local television cameras,
- that's a lot different.
- And that was harder for people to deal with.
- But I think that lessened over the years,
- and people didn't care who saw them on TV.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Do you recall how many groups were participating
- by the time you stopped?
- I mean were there church groups?
- Was there the Troublemakers?
- The band, I think it was Basically Trouble.
- PAUL SCHEIB: Basically Trouble.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Were there politicians?
- Were there?
- PAUL SCHEIB: In the beginning, we didn't really
- organize ourselves as groups.
- I think the first group that came,
- and that's why we gave them the place of honor,
- was it I don't know if they're defined as such a group or not,
- but what's considered the Dykes on Bikes.
- They were always the first ones that came on.
- And that's why for the five years that I ran the parade
- they always went first because they were the first on board.
- But other than them, the first year
- was just whoever wanted to come, just come and march
- with whomever and be there.
- But by the fifth year, yes, we didn't
- have politicians at that point.
- But we did have some churches that identified themselves
- as being gay friendly.
- Like Downtown United Presbyterian Church
- comes to mind.
- So they were marching.
- And more of the community was here.
- Basically, Troublemakers hadn't formed yet.
- I don't think.
- But there was the Big Apple Bugle Corps
- or something of that nature.
- And so they actually came from New York and played.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And was the route longer?
- I mean when you first began, you went from Crossroads Park
- to the Liberty Pole.
- PAUL SCHEIB: Right.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And then I think you
- shared with me some time ago, the second year was
- from the Liberty Pole to Crossroads Park.
- PAUL SCHEIB: Correct.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And then--
- PAUL SCHEIB: And that was only a larger space for the rally
- afterwards.
- EVELYN BAILEY: So it would end in a rally?
- PAUL SCHEIB: Right.
- In the beginning it would always end
- and we had political statements.
- We had musicians who came.
- Leah Zaccaria from Buffalo would come and perform for us.
- We didn't have politicians per se,
- but we did have people who were involved in the gay and lesbian
- rights movement who would be giving speeches as well.
- And so the first year, when we were at Liberty Pole Square,
- we didn't really have a place to accommodate that.
- And that's why we reversed the parade route the next year
- so we had a place to accommodate that.
- And I think we actually did that for two years.
- And then in an attempt to bring more people,
- we changed the parade route to be more
- into sort of like the gay ghetto area.
- And that's when we started at the corner of Park
- and Berkeley, went from Park and Berkeley
- down to Cobb's Hill Park.
- And then we had the rally next to Lake Riley.
- And then the last year again, in an attempt
- to bring people together, we started the parade
- at the Highland Bowl.
- It went down and it ended at the Genesee Valley Park
- to lead everyone into the GAGV picnic.
- But I think that was the time that I
- thought we finally made it.
- Because I remember every year I would be running back and forth
- through the parade.
- But I remember being at the corner of Elmwood and Mount
- Hope, and turning around and looking back
- and there were still people funnelling down Elmwood Avenue
- from the South Avenue.
- And that was a very good feeling.
- EVELYN BAILEY: While you were doing the parade,
- you became president of The Gay Alliance.
- Can you kind of describe what The Gay Alliance Activities
- Board was in the early 1990s?
- I mean was it a volunteer board?
- Did you have paid staff?
- PAUL SCHEIB: It was a volunteer board.
- I believe there was only two paid staff members.
- There was the editor for the Empty Closet.
- And then we had a part time office
- manager, who at that time was Joe Carroll, I believe.
- Well, and then we had a couple contract people
- because we had someone who was contracted to sell
- the ads in the Empty Closet--
- Harlo Russell.
- So those were the only real employees of The Alliance
- per se.
- Everything else was done volunteer.
- We had a hot line that was manned
- by volunteers every night, seven nights a week
- from like I believe it was 7:00 to 11:00.
- At that time, we had moved into a larger space, but still too
- small of a space for us to do all of our activities
- at the Genesee Valley Cooperative on Monroe Avenue.
- We had from the back corner where
- we were into the sunken room.
- But it still wasn't a large enough space
- to produce the Empty Closet as well as doing the activities
- of The Gay Alliance.
- So we were in the process of purchasing.
- A lot of the activities of the Alliance at that time
- were around getting funding and trying
- to find a space of our own, and buying our own building.
- And you obviously you know.
- You were instrumental in that effort
- in buying the facility on Atlantic Avenue.
- So the Alliance was an umbrella organization.
- Any gay and lesbian organization within the city
- were welcome to we felt should be
- under the umbrella of the Gay Alliance.
- At that time, a lot of groups were coming into their own.
- The black community came to the Alliance
- and that's where most MOCHA was developed
- from in the early 90s.
- The Gay and Lesbian Film Festival came to the Alliance
- again, in the early 90s seeking a grant for seed money--
- or for a grant.
- And I remember that we let them use our name
- and use our 501c3 status to get the grant from Arch
- for Greater Rochester for them.
- And then the space that we had as a sunken room was
- used by just about every group in the community.
- We had library service that people
- could come and check out books.
- We had a lot of people who were coming out
- who didn't know what it was like to come out.
- So they utilized the library for those resources.
- You know.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Was there a coffee house?
- PAUL SCHEIB: Yes.
- I believe there was a coffee house on Saturday nights.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Was there a youth group?
- PAUL SCHEIB: There was a youth group
- that was on Sunday afternoons.
- From the Alliance there was and even different groups.
- I mean Come Out and Play, which was a group for younger
- gay men, sort of used our space for their meetings and stuff
- like that to organize what their events were going to be.
- The Cooking Group started from that time.
- From the coffeehouse a bunch of men
- got together that wanted to cook together.
- So that's how that impetus came out.
- There's a women's group.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Lesbian Resource Center.
- PAUL SCHEIB: Lesbian Resource Center
- was going on at that time.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Was there a speakers bureau?
- PAUL SCHEIB: As long as I remember
- there's a speaking bureau.
- Even before that time.
- And they went to high schools, colleges, businesses.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And who went to speak?
- PAUL SCHEIB: People who were volunteers.
- People volunteered to be in the speaker's bureau.
- And then they were trained by staff or from the Alliance
- to give them more information, and to help them
- with their public speaking ability.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Talk to me a little bit
- about the youth group.
- Was that run by volunteers?
- Was that-- everything was run.
- PAUL SCHEIB: Everything was run by volunteers.
- Again, the only paid staff was the editor
- of the Empty Closet--
- you know really.
- And again, our office manager.
- But the office manager wasn't at that time,
- wasn't a program director.
- It developed into a program director
- later on down the road.
- But at that time, there wasn't.
- So even the youth group--
- and they were sort of in a way vetted.
- Because of the fear of being seen as having youth group
- volunteers as recruiters.
- You know I mean the Gay Alliance took care--
- to great time and care in selecting
- who would be chosen as a leader for the youth group
- to make sure that there was no issues with pedophilia.
- So this way we felt comfortable that we wouldn't
- have to worry about any child abuse claims from the parents
- that we were coercing their children into being there
- or anything of that nature.
- EVELYN BAILEY: In terms of speaking engagements,
- was it primarily to schools?
- Or was it to businesses?
- Or was it to other gay groups?
- Or other groups in the city?
- Do you have a sense of that?
- PAUL SCHEIB: Well, I think there was a lot of all of it.
- I mean I remember doing you know there was quite a few schools,
- but I think mostly was to businesses trying.
- At that time you know diversity training
- was getting more en vogue with a lot of corporations and stuff
- like that.
- So the Alliance did more of the local corporations.
- And I think from that is where a lot of the local Fortune 500
- type companies started developing their own gay
- and lesbian support groups for their employees and stuff
- like that.
- I remember going myself to other gay and lesbian communities.
- I remember going to especially in the Finger Lakes, where
- they felt more isolated in a more rural community.
- And tried to get them to help develop their own community
- resource centers type of thing.
- So we were doing that as well.
- EVELYN BAILEY: There were a couple
- of men in the community at the time who really stayed
- with the Alliance a long time.
- One was Horace--
- Horace Lethbridge.
- PAUL SCHEIB: Yeah.
- He was president of the Alliance for many years.
- And then even after that you know
- he was with a youth group for many, many years.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And he did Omega?
- And was the Wellesley Center operative at that point?
- PAUL SCHEIB: I believe so.
- I didn't really know what its affiliation was
- with the Alliance and stuff.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Well, I don't think it had an affiliation.
- Just that Horace was one of the counselors and Barb Debs
- was the other.
- And then the other person who I think
- had tremendous impact on the Alliance
- from a conservative perspective was Harlow Russell.
- PAUL SCHEIB: Well, he may have been conservative
- in his financial views.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
- PAUL SCHEIB: But I would never call Harlow conservative.
- He would be rolling over in his grave
- if he would of heard himself being called a conservative.
- I think the Alliance owes people like Harlow
- a great deal because I mean he on the years
- that I served on the finance committee with him,
- I mean he was invaluable to the Alliance
- in making sure that we stayed within our budget.
- That if we didn't have the money, we didn't spend it.
- You know that we have the money before
- made any purchases, which gets a lot of other organizations
- in trouble.
- But in his politics, I mean Harlow,
- while he was third order Franciscan brother,
- he was also a radical fairy.
- Harlow was a liberationist.
- I mean when you look at the liberationist
- or assimilationist, I mean Harlow was definitely
- a liberationist in the best sense of the word.
- And in fact, there's a picture of Harlow
- at the corner of Park Avenue and Berkeley Street,
- which is the first time that he was
- in his fairy drag in public.
- And I got a lot of flack from a lot of the assimilationists
- in the Rochester gay community for allowing that picture
- to be taken because they felt that it was portraying
- the stereotype of the gay community and men in drag.
- And it was nothing of the sort.
- EVELYN BAILEY: What were the radical fairies?
- Who are they?
- PAUL SCHEIB: I mean I don't know a lot
- about the radical fairies.
- I believe they were founded in the 50s.
- It's a spiritual organization.
- It's spiritual freedom.
- Harlow invited me to many fairy gatherings,
- but I never attended.
- So I don't know much about the fairies.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Paul, during the course
- of the time that you were involved with the Alliance,
- either on the board, president of the board, or after,
- what were the donations?
- What was total budget for the year?
- Hundreds?
- PAUL SCHEIB: No.
- I don't think it was near a hundred.
- I mean I think you know the bulk of the donations,
- you know, we had the one big fundraiser form the Alliance
- perspective was the picnic.
- And I think most years the picnic brought
- in maybe $12,000, $15,000.
- The Empty Closet-- usually the ads
- brought in from the Empty Closet generally paid
- for the salary of the editor, sometimes not though.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And printing.
- PAUL SCHEIB: Yeah.
- We were United Way Part D. So this way,
- instead of getting donations directly from the United Way
- we were designating groups of people
- when they wanted to do their United Way fund raising could
- designate us for their funds.
- But only by a designation do we get money
- through the United Way.
- Yes.
- I think maybe the total budget was maybe
- only $20,000 to $30,000 I think.
- We nickeled and dimed it.
- We got by however we had to.
- EVELYN BAILEY: By the skin of our teeth in many ways.
- PAUL SCHEIB: Yeah.
- So this way when ImageOut became ImageOut,
- when Larry Champeau came and asked for $1,000,
- I think it was, to help back the first film festival.
- And that was a lot of money.
- Because we'd just taken a loss the year before when
- we tried to do that convention.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Pink Flamingos and Purple Hearts.
- PAUL SCHEIB: Yeah.
- When we tried to do that.
- So we were leery about--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Funding another--
- PAUL SCHEIB: Funding another thing
- that we were afraid it was going to turn out
- to be another thing like that.
- Luckily, it didn't.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Now that you've been away
- from the Alliance for a number of years, looking back what
- was your most proud moment?
- PAUL SCHEIB: I think my most proud moment was
- when we purchased the building at Atlantic Avenue,
- the city refused to recognize our tax exempt status,
- and refused to give us taxes on privileges for the property
- tax.
- And I think my proudest moment was actually
- being deposed by the city as the president of the Gay Alliance.
- Because I remember the headline of the Times Union
- newspaper the next day following that
- was "The City Deposes GAGV President."
- I just remember that I guess maybe in hindsight
- since we won the case it was a very proud moment.
- I think it set the groundwork for a lot of things.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Well, John Noble certainly
- identifies that moment as defining
- what education meant for organizations who did not
- have a school, or a building, or classrooms,
- or what one would traditionally think of as education.
- And it also set the benchmark for alternative organizations
- to hold property, to own property,
- and to be exempt whether they were educational in nature
- or not.
- During your work either with the Alliance or with ACT UP,
- was there ever a time in your life
- where you were scared shitless because you were a gay man?
- PAUL SCHEIB: I remember being out,
- I mean no affiliation with the Alliance,
- I mean I just remember being out late night
- and I think we were at the Country Club
- Diner on East Avenue.
- And there was an incident with other patrons there.
- I was just with a friend.
- We weren't romantically involved,
- or doing anything romantic.
- We just gone there for something to eat after being out at a bar
- I think.
- And they were being verbally abusive toward us and stuff.
- And then the manager came over and told
- us to leave instead of telling them to leave.
- But that time, you know we didn't know if they
- were going to follow us out.
- EVELYN BAILEY: When you again, look back the political arena
- certainly changed.
- How did having out gay politicians on city council
- primarily affect or change the climate?
- Or did it?
- PAUL SCHEIB: It certainly made it more public.
- I don't know how much it changed the climate.
- I mean it's not like when Tim and Bill, when they were
- on city council and stuff, they were never
- pushing for gay rights while they were there.
- And even before that, I think we all
- know that we had gay marriage before that.
- They we're never out.
- I think the climate changed not just from them
- but for everybody just being more open.
- I think you know again, I mean I think
- the parade in my opinion, had more to do with that.
- People realizing being comfortable enough
- in their own skin to public about their sexuality.
- And about coming the parade and being
- seen at home in the parade.
- We've never had any violence at the parades
- either when I was doing it or since.
- That that's always been a safe space.
- The Gay Alliance picnic for the thirty or however many years
- it's been going for, there's never been a time of violence
- at that picnic.
- That safe space has been created.
- Gay youth have always had a safe place to come at the Alliance.
- So I think the care-- and I think the care
- that the members of the Alliance or the board of the Alliance
- or whoever that we consciously made
- in providing that space helped people come into their own.
- And nurtured them enough to get into the own where we have
- what we have today.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Now, you are also involved
- kind of around the same time with Dignity-Integrity.
- Before I go there though, did you ever think in your lifetime
- that you would see marriage equality become
- a reality for you in New York?
- PAUL SCHEIB: When I first came out, when I first got involved,
- I don't even think it was on the radar of ever even being
- a possibility.
- You know that wasn't on the radar at the time.
- We were doing the other things.
- I remember gays in military was on the radar then.
- You know and then--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Unemployment discrimination.
- Housing discrimination.
- PAUL SCHEIB: Right.
- But I never would have thought that twenty-five years later
- that I'm married.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Was domestic partnership
- benefits a big thing for you?
- Being passed by the city, certainly not by the county?
- PAUL SCHEIB: Certainly it was.
- I remember David and I did go down and register the day
- that it passed.
- We were one of the first set of couples who were there.
- In our house we displayed our certificate.
- You know even now I think it's still up on the wall.
- I don't think we've replaced it with our marriage license
- or anything like that.
- Not that it offered any benefit, but at least it was a symbol.
- It was symbolic in that the city respected our relationship.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Now, there were oftentimes
- members of the community getting married not legally,
- but in terms of religious ritual that,
- and I believe in some churches like the Episcopal church,
- that marriage was legal.
- PAUL SCHEIB: Recognized.
- Legal but it was recognized.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Dignity-Integrity provided for people
- another safe space to be.
- PAUL SCHEIB: In fact, Dignity-Integrity
- actually wrote the commitment ceremony
- that is used by the Episcopal church for same sex couples.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And in terms of Dignity,
- what was the relationship between DI
- and the Catholic church during that period of time
- that you were involved?
- PAUL SCHEIB: Well, certainly the Catholic church
- knew of the existence of Dignity.
- And early on, well not early on, but I
- mean for the longest time, the Catholic church
- whether they knew or not didn't forbid priests
- for saying Catholic services for gay men and women.
- So they were allowed to do so.
- Even before-- it even predates Matthew Clark.
- I mean it even went back when Hogan
- was a bishop before Clark.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Hogan.
- PAUL SCHEIB: That actually started in '77
- and Joe Hogan was the bishop then.
- And actually I mean Dignity-Integrity
- it was viewed as a collaborative effort between the Roman
- Catholic diocese and the Episcopal diocese.
- I mean we've always been the oldest standing Roman Catholic
- and Episcopal--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Chapter.
- PAUL SCHEIB: Chapter in the country.
- But it's the only sign of actual cooperation between the two
- faiths in Rochester as well.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And during the 80s and 90s,
- where were services held and who was the Episcopal counterpart
- to the Catholic counterpart?
- I mean it was Bishop Hogan when and was it was a Bishop Spears?
- PAUL SCHEIB: I don't know who the Episcopal bishop was.
- Not being Episcopalian myself.
- But then it continued on through the succession of Episcopal
- because there's been more Episcopal bishops than there
- were Catholic bishops.
- I mean there was rotating services between Roman Catholic
- and Episcopal services that were said by a priest
- with communion distributed at each service.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And where were those held?
- PAUL SCHEIB: They were at St. Luke's.
- Then it became St. Luke's and St. Simon's.
- But it's always been at Fincher Street, starting.
- Bruce Hanson opened up his church.
- The first service was Easter Sunday in I think 1977.
- And then it wasn't incorporated until later--
- until September of that year they got their filing.
- At that time in the late 80s, early 90s,
- I think it was probably at its peak as far as members go.
- It was not uncommon that you would have over 120 people
- at a service a night.
- They were every Sunday night.
- The number of Catholics who belong to Dignity-Integrity was
- large enough that we qualified to be in--
- I don't remember when exactly.
- But in the 90s, Bishop Clark convened a sit-in
- for all Catholic communities.
- And you had-- I think it was you had
- to have at least 100 Catholics to be
- considered in the community.
- Or if you didn't, you would--
- needed it.
- But Dignity had over 100 Roman Catholics.
- So we were actually allowed to take part in the sit-in.
- We actually two representatives who
- represented of Dignity-Integrity to the larger diocesan
- and large diocesan process.
- So I mean I think that's probably
- one of the pinnacles of Dignity's
- involvement in the sit-in.
- I don't think in very many other communities
- would Dignity have been allowed to be part of the sit-in.
- EVELYN BAILEY: But you had a seat at the table.
- PAUL SCHEIB: Right.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And when was it that Bishop Clark held
- the mass at the cathedral and do you have a sense of why
- he chose to do that?
- PAUL SCHEIB: I think he was listening to,
- as any good shepherd should, I think
- he was listening to his flock.
- And he was responding to those in his flock,
- from what he was hearing, not just from Dignity-Integrity
- but from at that time a lot of us
- were members of Dignity-Integrity
- went beyond just going to service
- at that Dignity-Integrity and we were in the local parishes
- as well.
- And so he was hearing there were concerns from the larger
- diocesan missions.
- Again, he was being a good shepherd
- in responding to his flock.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Do you remember the year?
- PAUL SCHEIB: I'd say '97 maybe.
- I'm not 100% sure about that.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Later 90s versus earlier 90s.
- PAUL SCHEIB: Yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Do you recall when the climate changed?
- PAUL SCHEIB: Not long after that.
- Sometime in the early 2000s, you know Matthew got called to Rome
- and was told that you know Roman Catholic priests could
- no longer be allowed to say mass at Dignity, Dignity-Integrity.
- So that's when they had to change their services over.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Do you have a sense that
- was happening at the same time as (unintelligible) issues were
- rising to the surface with a parallel in some way.
- PAUL SCHEIB: Well, I think (unintelligible)
- was much earlier I think.
- This was more involved with the whole Christian spirituals,
- I think there was that going on at the same time this was,
- I think he would you know, Matthew
- was getting in trouble because of Jim Callahan and stuff.
- What was going on there.
- And so they all sort of meld together in that.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Paul, do you still
- you consider yourself a Catholic?
- PAUL SCHEIB: Yeah.
- I still attend Sunday service every week.
- I'm active in my parish.
- I'm a member of the choir, I'm a lector,
- I'm a Eucharistic minister.
- EVELYN BAILEY: What is it that allows
- you to do that knowing the way the hierarchical church
- anyway responds to LGBT people?
- PAUL SCHEIB: I truly believe that change will only
- come from within.
- It's not changed within the Roman Catholic church.
- It's not going to be a top down thing.
- It's going to come from the bottom up.
- So if we leave, it's not going to happen.
- And so I'm committed to the fight.
- EVELYN BAILEY: So when look go back and think
- about Paul Scheib, how do you want people to remember you?
- What do you want people to say about you?
- In terms of LGBT?
- You're very, very, very well accomplished
- in your profession, in the work that you
- did before you became a--
- PAUL SCHEIB: I think I would hope
- that they would think that I helped make a difference.
- Between everything I did with and through the Alliance,
- the parade, ACT UP, the television show,
- the Word Is Out.
- That we helped to create a level where they were comfortable.
- EVELYN BAILEY: The television show.
- Talk to me about that.
- PAUL SCHEIB: Actually, that's was the reason why
- I left the Alliance.
- This was 1993 when community television became the rage.
- So I actually was producer and had
- people we put on a monthly television show called
- the Word Is Out, where we talked about gay issues of the day.
- Different shows had different things.
- Some were variety type shows.
- So we did news reports.
- We also had people who wanted to do skits.
- So they would come on and do a skit,
- whether it be in the studio or on location and stuff
- like that.
- We did a cooking segment.
- We had a cooking segment.
- But it was again, just another vehicle
- for people to see themselves portrayed on TV at a time
- when this was before LOGO.
- Before most of the major networks
- had gay or lesbian characters.
- Or when you did, you never saw them kiss.
- Or you never saw them be intimate or anything.
- You know so we created the arena for them.
- The biggest problem was that unfortunately you had
- to be a resident of the city.
- You didn't air outside of the city of Rochester.
- You had to be a local resident to get that community access
- channel.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Where did you broadcast from?
- PAUL SCHEIB: It's broadcast from the community access television
- station off of St. Paul street.
- We did the editing there.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Who would have tapes of that?
- PAUL SCHEIB: I have all of them.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Oh.
- PAUL SCHEIB: Yeah.
- I have tapes of all the episodes.
- Yeah.
- I meant tell you that.
- We have that to add to the archives too.
- EVELYN BAILEY: That I think well I
- think Kevin Indovino of 21 whose producer director would
- be very interested in seeing some of that.
- PAUL SCHEIB: But on VHS so I don't know how you know.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Oh he has the ability to convert
- and actually he can do that totally.
- But I don't want to commit him to that.
- But even if you can identify a couple of those tapes
- that might be of particular interest today
- because my other two questions.
- First question is what in your opinion,
- is the next barrier to be torn down in terms of LGBT issues?
- In terms of the gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender
- community?
- What needs to be the next Stonewall?
- PAUL SCHEIB: I don't how easily that's identifiable.
- I think certainly bullying and the effects of bullying
- is a huge issue.
- And I don't know how to address that.
- As I said at the same time people
- say you know studies show that young people are more
- accepting of gay marriage and of gay men and lesbians.
- At the same time, the suicide rates for gay youth
- have not come down at all.
- And that for me is disturbing that the statistics
- haven't changed.
- I don't what needs to be done to change that environment.
- EVELYN BAILEY: So it is still then
- the challenge of attitude and behavior.
- PAUL SCHEIB: And I think that's still that attitude of that--
- that feeling of isolation.
- You know when you self identify yourself
- as gay man or a lesbian.
- That feeling of isolation still exist.
- Regardless of Ellen or anything else out there.
- And it's not just any, and you want
- to think it's not in our community.
- That it's only in the rural communities or something
- like that.
- But it's not.
- You still have that same feeling of isolation.
- And I think part of it is when you
- see legislation tried to be passed in Tennessee where
- they're trying to outlaw the word homosexual to be said
- in schools.
- That would increase that isolation.
- Why we're still allowing legislation
- like that to even come to the table
- is something that needs to be done.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Is there still a need
- for organizations and agencies like the Alliance?
- PAUL SCHEIB: There's always going to need to be--
- safe harbors.
- There's always going to need to be a place where
- people can meet other people.
- Well, the environment may have changed enough
- where the Alliance doesn't need to be this huge umbrella that
- used to be for everyone.
- There is still a need for groups like the Alliance
- to provide that safe haven, that resource
- center, that space for youth.
- Drop-in youth or whatever.
- Even for adults because a lot of people
- go through marriages and stuff like and realize
- that wasn't where they were at and everything.
- So there's still that need for that.
- I think there's still a need for the Empty Closet.
- For as much the news that's in the Empty Closet,
- the majority of that doesn't reach the mainstream media,
- that the people are going to pick up from mainstream media.
- And I'm sorry but a lot of the magazine's
- that cater to the gay and lesbian population,
- the amount of actual news in there is pitiful.
- And so that's where something the publishing
- a paper like the Empty Closet is important.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Final question.
- What would you say to a young person
- today who is just coming out?
- What would you want to tell them about this life that
- would be encouraging, helpful, affirming?
- PAUL SCHEIB: Not to be cliche, but it does get better.
- There are resources out there.
- You'll find your home.
- For me, it was when I found Dignity-Integrity
- for the first time.
- There was that sense of I'm home.
- I'm comfortable here.
- I'm safe here.
- They exist.
- And if you're not finding it, keep looking.
- EVELYN BAILEY: OK.
- Paul, thank you very much.
- I personally think your contributions to this community
- are more than significant.
- Because you had not only the energy and the action, but you
- had the vision.
- And you looked at other people who had the vision
- and allowed that to take root in you,
- and for you to move with that.
- It's a very different time, but the issues
- that face the gay community are no different today
- than they were 40 years ago.
- We still have fear.
- We still aren't accepted.
- We still have individual battles that we have
- to fight within and without.
- And the work that you've done not only being president
- of the Alliance, but the parade, the Historical Bowling Society.
- I mean that name just it boggles the mind in some ways.
- But--
- PAUL SCHEIB: It's based on the Toronto Bowling Society,
- but it actually when they started it was the Toronto
- Hysterical Bowling Society because most of the people when
- they were just coming to the league didn't know how to bowl,
- so it was hysterical to watch them.
- And then over the years it got changed to historical.
- That's where that impetus comes from.
- EVELYN BAILEY: But probably more than any of that
- is your commitment to hang in there
- and to keep working from within to effect positive change.
- That's an incredible, it's an incredible commitment
- to make because it's not easy.
- PAUL SCHEIB: You've been doing it just as long.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Well, I've had a lot of support though.
- I've had a lot of support.
- You know.
- PAUL SCHEIB: Well, yeah.
- I've been lucky that I've had David.
- I just told David that I'm going to go do this.
- And he said, "OK."
- You know that he hasn't had restraint.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And that's very important.
- PAUL SCHEIB: Yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Well, thank you.
- I'm going to turn this off.