Audio Interview, Paul Scheib, March 14, 2013

EVELYN BAILEY: Today's date is March 14th Thursday.

And I'm here with Paul Scheib, who

was a past president of the Alliance

and who was involved with ACT UP Rochester during the 80s.

And so I want to begin kind of my discussion

with Paul by asking, how did you become involved in the Gay

Alliance?

Or which came first, ACT UP or the Gay Alliance?

PAUL SCHEIB: Oh.

I think there were actually-- well,

I mean they were simultaneous.

But I think I was actually involved with the Gay Alliance

previous to ACT UP.

I think I was already sitting on the board of the Alliance

before we first sort of organized ACT UP in Rochester.

EVELYN BAILEY: And first of all, how did you

come to be on the board?

And second of all, how did you meet ACT UP?

How did you get connected?

PAUL SCHEIB: Well, I got involved with the Gay Alliance

back in the day when the Gay Alliance--

all gay organizations in the Rochester community

were offered a seat on the board.

So I served on the board of the Alliance

as a representative from the Rochester Historical Bowling

Society.

And then through that Martin Hiraga

was also on the board at the Alliance.

And so it was through the Alliance that I met Martin.

And Martin and I co-founded ACT UP together.

EVELYN BAILEY: And tell me a little bit about Martin,

and the formation of ACT UP.

Was it his idea?

Was it your idea?

Did you--

PAUL SCHEIB: It was very much his idea.

I mean he was very in tune with what

was going on with ACT UP on a national level.

Especially ACT UP New York and New York City.

He was much closer to the AIDS, the AIDS activist community

than I was.

And so it partly was Martin's dynamic personality

that drew me to.

EVELYN BAILEY: What was the purpose of ACT UP?

PAUL SCHEIB: ACT UP serve to politicize

and in some way to draw attention to the AIDS crisis.

I mean because we were living through the Reagan

administration where we had a president who for seven years

while in office never mentioned the word AIDS.

And so there are many people with HIV and people with AIDS

who were being discriminated against in housing, employment,

even in hospital settings where doctors, nurses were refusing

to treat them.

Pharmaceutical companies.

The other big push for ACT UP was

that the pharmaceutical companies weren't developing

and bringing to market drugs at a quick enough pace

to keep up with the crisis.

EVELYN BAILEY: And was your focus on local, state, federal?

PAUL SCHEIB: All of the above.

I mean I think wherever there is an opportunity

to draw attention or to link AIDS in the fight for people

with AIDS and HIV to whatever political argument was going

on, we used that.

I mean I think one of our proudest moments

was when the presidential debate in 1988

was held at Eastman Theater.

Because of the presence of ACT UP outside the Eastman Theater,

the first question asked at that presidential debate to both

candidates who in '88 was Walter Mondale and George Bush,

George Bush Sr.--

the first question posed to both of them was what would

you do in the AIDS crisis.

And that's the first time that that had ever been brought up

in a presidential debate.

And for that to be the very first question asked,

well, that was a proud moment for us.

EVELYN BAILEY: Would you identify

that moment as the first time nationally those two candidates

were asked to address the issue?

PAUL SCHEIB: Yep.

EVELYN BAILEY: So nowhere else in the country

were they being asked about this?

PAUL SCHEIB: Until that debate.

Yeah.

I mean it may have been.

But it wasn't.

I mean that obviously, drew the focus of the nation

because it was the presidential debate.

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

PAUL SCHEIB: And whether they were mentioning it

in their stump speeches or not, I don't recall at that time.

EVELYN BAILEY: What actions did you

take as a group to bring focus to your desire

to link AIDS and the political arena together?

What were some of the actions here in Rochester?

PAUL SCHEIB: Some of the actions in Rochester, I mean again,

they were going on politically on the federal level,

the federal government had restricted women's health

services.

And so we linked that women have HIV, women have AIDS.

So linking that restriction on those rights for women,

we linked that as well.

So that was a major push when did a demonstration

outside the federal building linking that.

EVELYN BAILEY: Did you protest in other places?

PAUL SCHEIB: Yeah.

We took part in protests that were going on

in Albany on a state level.

We took part in protests that were going on

at a national level outside the National Institute of Health

in Bethesda, Maryland.

So we were small, but we made sure

that we were being represented.

EVELYN BAILEY: Talk to me a little bit about Martin.

What kind of a person was he?

What gave him his chutzpah?

His energy?

PAUL SCHEIB: I don't know where he got

all of his energy to be honest.

He was a dynamic person who had the most infectious laugh.

Anyone could tell you that it would just draw you in.

But he was passionate.

Pro or con, I don't think there is anything

that he didn't have a passionate response for one

way or the other.

Again, he just had a dynamic force

that you wanted to be around.

I mean I think I'm richer for knowing him--

for having known him.

EVELYN BAILEY: Looking back, how effective would you

say ACT UP Rochester was on the local level?

And I know you weren't involved with New York City,

but how effective was ACT UP on a national level?

PAUL SCHEIB: On a local level, it's hard to assess.

I mean I don't know the depths of the discrimination and such

that was going on locally compared to

on a more national level.

I think ACT UP as an organization was much more

effective on a national level, especially when you

look at the demonstrations done in New York.

You know stopping traffic on the Brooklyn Bridge

or stopping traffic on Wall Street.

The die ins that were done to demonstrate the amount

of people who were dying.

You know locally, I think part of our dilemma

was that we never attracted a large number of people

to the group.

So it's hard to do mass things like that when you only

have six or seven people.

You know.

That's where I think trying to tie

in the other issues of the day was more important for us.

EVELYN BAILEY: How long were you involved with ACT UP?

How long was Martin here in Rochester?

Do you recall?

PAUL SCHEIB: It was only until around '90, '91

or so that's when Martin moved to Washington DC.

And so it was a brief time.

It was probably only from like maybe '87 to '90

or so that ACT UP Rochester really went on.

And then when Martin left, I had other responsibilities.

In '91 I became president of The Gay Alliance.

So I had other things that came in.

Knowing that I was president of The Alliance

I couldn't quite be as--

I didn't want to hurt The Alliance

by continuing to be as radical as needed to be.

I didn't want to hurt funding for The Alliance in any way.

So I sort of stepped back as doing some of that.

EVELYN BAILEY: Where does the parade in this development?

PAUL SCHEIB: 1988 is when we did a march down Monroe Avenue.

When we say we, I mean ACT UP did a march down Monroe Avenue.

And then a kiss-in at the corner of Monroe Avenue and Goodman

next to the Avenue Pub.

So that in my opinion, and I think

I'm the only one who holds that opinion,

is the first gay pride parade in Rochester.

So when everybody else claims the next year as the first,

I don't because that for me was the first pride parade.

EVELYN BAILEY: OK.

PAUL SCHEIB: Though it wasn't billed as such.

EVELYN BAILEY: Was is billed as an ACT UP--

PAUL SCHEIB: It was.

I was billed as an ACT UP function.

I don't remember what the actual title of it was.

But I'm not sure.

You know.

So yeah.

But I mean the night was actually

a commemoration of Stonewall because it took place

on June 28th, the night of the anniversary of the Stonewall

Riots.

So that's what it was billed as.

EVELYN BAILEY: And in the next year?

PAUL SCHEIB: The next year we actually, you

know, we applied--

I applied for a permit from the city.

And was granted a permit from the city.

And so we marched down Main Street.

We purposely wanted to be as public as possible.

And we purposely wanted to be as disruptive as we could.

So we chose to walk down Main Street starting

at 6:00 PM on purpose.

And so the parade route went from Crossroads Park

at the corner behind the first federal building,

and then it ended at the Liberty Pole at Liberty Square.

EVELYN BAILEY: And how many years did you organize this?

PAUL SCHEIB: I was the organizer of the parade the first five

years of its existence.

For the first six years because of the kiss-in the first year.

EVELYN BAILEY: So from 1988 to 1994?

PAUL SCHEIB: '93 I think it was.

Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: OK.

And over that period of time, how did that parade, that event

change?

I mean did it grow in numbers?

PAUL SCHEIB: It grew in numbers.

I mean I remember in the very beginning,

you know the first couple of years,

there were more people who were willing to watch

from the sidewalk than were willing to participate.

And I think over the years, that number lessened--

that more people are willing to participate in the parade.

More people felt comfortable enough or whatever

that they were able to.

And I think part of it is because of the parade's

existence that it gave them a sense of that they

didn't have to worry about being out in their own community.

Because there would be tons of people.

And I mean prior to that, there would

be tons of people who would go to New York for the pride

parade or they go to Toronto for the pride parade.

But it's different to march in your own town.

If you were on TV in New York City,

if you're on TV in Toronto, it's not going to be seen locally.

But when you have local television cameras,

that's a lot different.

And that was harder for people to deal with.

But I think that lessened over the years,

and people didn't care who saw them on TV.

EVELYN BAILEY: Do you recall how many groups were participating

by the time you stopped?

I mean were there church groups?

Was there the Troublemakers?

The band, I think it was Basically Trouble.

PAUL SCHEIB: Basically Trouble.

EVELYN BAILEY: Were there politicians?

Were there?

PAUL SCHEIB: In the beginning, we didn't really

organize ourselves as groups.

I think the first group that came,

and that's why we gave them the place of honor,

was it I don't know if they're defined as such a group or not,

but what's considered the Dykes on Bikes.

They were always the first ones that came on.

And that's why for the five years that I ran the parade

they always went first because they were the first on board.

But other than them, the first year

was just whoever wanted to come, just come and march

with whomever and be there.

But by the fifth year, yes, we didn't

have politicians at that point.

But we did have some churches that identified themselves

as being gay friendly.

Like Downtown United Presbyterian Church

comes to mind.

So they were marching.

And more of the community was here.

Basically, Troublemakers hadn't formed yet.

I don't think.

But there was the Big Apple Bugle Corps

or something of that nature.

And so they actually came from New York and played.

EVELYN BAILEY: And was the route longer?

I mean when you first began, you went from Crossroads Park

to the Liberty Pole.

PAUL SCHEIB: Right.

EVELYN BAILEY: And then I think you

shared with me some time ago, the second year was

from the Liberty Pole to Crossroads Park.

PAUL SCHEIB: Correct.

EVELYN BAILEY: And then--

PAUL SCHEIB: And that was only a larger space for the rally

afterwards.

EVELYN BAILEY: So it would end in a rally?

PAUL SCHEIB: Right.

In the beginning it would always end

and we had political statements.

We had musicians who came.

Leah Zaccaria from Buffalo would come and perform for us.

We didn't have politicians per se,

but we did have people who were involved in the gay and lesbian

rights movement who would be giving speeches as well.

And so the first year, when we were at Liberty Pole Square,

we didn't really have a place to accommodate that.

And that's why we reversed the parade route the next year

so we had a place to accommodate that.

And I think we actually did that for two years.

And then in an attempt to bring more people,

we changed the parade route to be more

into sort of like the gay ghetto area.

And that's when we started at the corner of Park

and Berkeley, went from Park and Berkeley

down to Cobb's Hill Park.

And then we had the rally next to Lake Riley.

And then the last year again, in an attempt

to bring people together, we started the parade

at the Highland Bowl.

It went down and it ended at the Genesee Valley Park

to lead everyone into the GAGV picnic.

But I think that was the time that I

thought we finally made it.

Because I remember every year I would be running back and forth

through the parade.

But I remember being at the corner of Elmwood and Mount

Hope, and turning around and looking back

and there were still people funnelling down Elmwood Avenue

from the South Avenue.

And that was a very good feeling.

EVELYN BAILEY: While you were doing the parade,

you became president of The Gay Alliance.

Can you kind of describe what The Gay Alliance Activities

Board was in the early 1990s?

I mean was it a volunteer board?

Did you have paid staff?

PAUL SCHEIB: It was a volunteer board.

I believe there was only two paid staff members.

There was the editor for the Empty Closet.

And then we had a part time office

manager, who at that time was Joe Carroll, I believe.

Well, and then we had a couple contract people

because we had someone who was contracted to sell

the ads in the Empty Closet--

Harlo Russell.

So those were the only real employees of The Alliance

per se.

Everything else was done volunteer.

We had a hot line that was manned

by volunteers every night, seven nights a week

from like I believe it was 7:00 to 11:00.

At that time, we had moved into a larger space, but still too

small of a space for us to do all of our activities

at the Genesee Valley Cooperative on Monroe Avenue.

We had from the back corner where

we were into the sunken room.

But it still wasn't a large enough space

to produce the Empty Closet as well as doing the activities

of The Gay Alliance.

So we were in the process of purchasing.

A lot of the activities of the Alliance at that time

were around getting funding and trying

to find a space of our own, and buying our own building.

And you obviously you know.

You were instrumental in that effort

in buying the facility on Atlantic Avenue.

So the Alliance was an umbrella organization.

Any gay and lesbian organization within the city

were welcome to we felt should be

under the umbrella of the Gay Alliance.

At that time, a lot of groups were coming into their own.

The black community came to the Alliance

and that's where most MOCHA was developed

from in the early 90s.

The Gay and Lesbian Film Festival came to the Alliance

again, in the early 90s seeking a grant for seed money--

or for a grant.

And I remember that we let them use our name

and use our 501c3 status to get the grant from Arch

for Greater Rochester for them.

And then the space that we had as a sunken room was

used by just about every group in the community.

We had library service that people

could come and check out books.

We had a lot of people who were coming out

who didn't know what it was like to come out.

So they utilized the library for those resources.

You know.

EVELYN BAILEY: Was there a coffee house?

PAUL SCHEIB: Yes.

I believe there was a coffee house on Saturday nights.

EVELYN BAILEY: Was there a youth group?

PAUL SCHEIB: There was a youth group

that was on Sunday afternoons.

From the Alliance there was and even different groups.

I mean Come Out and Play, which was a group for younger

gay men, sort of used our space for their meetings and stuff

like that to organize what their events were going to be.

The Cooking Group started from that time.

From the coffeehouse a bunch of men

got together that wanted to cook together.

So that's how that impetus came out.

There's a women's group.

EVELYN BAILEY: Lesbian Resource Center.

PAUL SCHEIB: Lesbian Resource Center

was going on at that time.

EVELYN BAILEY: Was there a speakers bureau?

PAUL SCHEIB: As long as I remember

there's a speaking bureau.

Even before that time.

And they went to high schools, colleges, businesses.

EVELYN BAILEY: And who went to speak?

PAUL SCHEIB: People who were volunteers.

People volunteered to be in the speaker's bureau.

And then they were trained by staff or from the Alliance

to give them more information, and to help them

with their public speaking ability.

EVELYN BAILEY: Talk to me a little bit

about the youth group.

Was that run by volunteers?

Was that-- everything was run.

PAUL SCHEIB: Everything was run by volunteers.

Again, the only paid staff was the editor

of the Empty Closet--

you know really.

And again, our office manager.

But the office manager wasn't at that time,

wasn't a program director.

It developed into a program director

later on down the road.

But at that time, there wasn't.

So even the youth group--

and they were sort of in a way vetted.

Because of the fear of being seen as having youth group

volunteers as recruiters.

You know I mean the Gay Alliance took care--

to great time and care in selecting

who would be chosen as a leader for the youth group

to make sure that there was no issues with pedophilia.

So this way we felt comfortable that we wouldn't

have to worry about any child abuse claims from the parents

that we were coercing their children into being there

or anything of that nature.

EVELYN BAILEY: In terms of speaking engagements,

was it primarily to schools?

Or was it to businesses?

Or was it to other gay groups?

Or other groups in the city?

Do you have a sense of that?

PAUL SCHEIB: Well, I think there was a lot of all of it.

I mean I remember doing you know there was quite a few schools,

but I think mostly was to businesses trying.

At that time you know diversity training

was getting more en vogue with a lot of corporations and stuff

like that.

So the Alliance did more of the local corporations.

And I think from that is where a lot of the local Fortune 500

type companies started developing their own gay

and lesbian support groups for their employees and stuff

like that.

I remember going myself to other gay and lesbian communities.

I remember going to especially in the Finger Lakes, where

they felt more isolated in a more rural community.

And tried to get them to help develop their own community

resource centers type of thing.

So we were doing that as well.

EVELYN BAILEY: There were a couple

of men in the community at the time who really stayed

with the Alliance a long time.

One was Horace--

Horace Lethbridge.

PAUL SCHEIB: Yeah.

He was president of the Alliance for many years.

And then even after that you know

he was with a youth group for many, many years.

EVELYN BAILEY: And he did Omega?

And was the Wellesley Center operative at that point?

PAUL SCHEIB: I believe so.

I didn't really know what its affiliation was

with the Alliance and stuff.

EVELYN BAILEY: Well, I don't think it had an affiliation.

Just that Horace was one of the counselors and Barb Debs

was the other.

And then the other person who I think

had tremendous impact on the Alliance

from a conservative perspective was Harlow Russell.

PAUL SCHEIB: Well, he may have been conservative

in his financial views.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.

PAUL SCHEIB: But I would never call Harlow conservative.

He would be rolling over in his grave

if he would of heard himself being called a conservative.

I think the Alliance owes people like Harlow

a great deal because I mean he on the years

that I served on the finance committee with him,

I mean he was invaluable to the Alliance

in making sure that we stayed within our budget.

That if we didn't have the money, we didn't spend it.

You know that we have the money before

made any purchases, which gets a lot of other organizations

in trouble.

But in his politics, I mean Harlow,

while he was third order Franciscan brother,

he was also a radical fairy.

Harlow was a liberationist.

I mean when you look at the liberationist

or assimilationist, I mean Harlow was definitely

a liberationist in the best sense of the word.

And in fact, there's a picture of Harlow

at the corner of Park Avenue and Berkeley Street,

which is the first time that he was

in his fairy drag in public.

And I got a lot of flack from a lot of the assimilationists

in the Rochester gay community for allowing that picture

to be taken because they felt that it was portraying

the stereotype of the gay community and men in drag.

And it was nothing of the sort.

EVELYN BAILEY: What were the radical fairies?

Who are they?

PAUL SCHEIB: I mean I don't know a lot

about the radical fairies.

I believe they were founded in the 50s.

It's a spiritual organization.

It's spiritual freedom.

Harlow invited me to many fairy gatherings,

but I never attended.

So I don't know much about the fairies.

EVELYN BAILEY: Paul, during the course

of the time that you were involved with the Alliance,

either on the board, president of the board, or after,

what were the donations?

What was total budget for the year?

Hundreds?

PAUL SCHEIB: No.

I don't think it was near a hundred.

I mean I think you know the bulk of the donations,

you know, we had the one big fundraiser form the Alliance

perspective was the picnic.

And I think most years the picnic brought

in maybe $12,000, $15,000.

The Empty Closet-- usually the ads

brought in from the Empty Closet generally paid

for the salary of the editor, sometimes not though.

EVELYN BAILEY: And printing.

PAUL SCHEIB: Yeah.

We were United Way Part D. So this way,

instead of getting donations directly from the United Way

we were designating groups of people

when they wanted to do their United Way fund raising could

designate us for their funds.

But only by a designation do we get money

through the United Way.

Yes.

I think maybe the total budget was maybe

only $20,000 to $30,000 I think.

We nickeled and dimed it.

We got by however we had to.

EVELYN BAILEY: By the skin of our teeth in many ways.

PAUL SCHEIB: Yeah.

So this way when ImageOut became ImageOut,

when Larry Champeau came and asked for $1,000,

I think it was, to help back the first film festival.

And that was a lot of money.

Because we'd just taken a loss the year before when

we tried to do that convention.

EVELYN BAILEY: Pink Flamingos and Purple Hearts.

PAUL SCHEIB: Yeah.

When we tried to do that.

So we were leery about--

EVELYN BAILEY: Funding another--

PAUL SCHEIB: Funding another thing

that we were afraid it was going to turn out

to be another thing like that.

Luckily, it didn't.

EVELYN BAILEY: Now that you've been away

from the Alliance for a number of years, looking back what

was your most proud moment?

PAUL SCHEIB: I think my most proud moment was

when we purchased the building at Atlantic Avenue,

the city refused to recognize our tax exempt status,

and refused to give us taxes on privileges for the property

tax.

And I think my proudest moment was actually

being deposed by the city as the president of the Gay Alliance.

Because I remember the headline of the Times Union

newspaper the next day following that

was "The City Deposes GAGV President."

I just remember that I guess maybe in hindsight

since we won the case it was a very proud moment.

I think it set the groundwork for a lot of things.

EVELYN BAILEY: Well, John Noble certainly

identifies that moment as defining

what education meant for organizations who did not

have a school, or a building, or classrooms,

or what one would traditionally think of as education.

And it also set the benchmark for alternative organizations

to hold property, to own property,

and to be exempt whether they were educational in nature

or not.

During your work either with the Alliance or with ACT UP,

was there ever a time in your life

where you were scared shitless because you were a gay man?

PAUL SCHEIB: I remember being out,

I mean no affiliation with the Alliance,

I mean I just remember being out late night

and I think we were at the Country Club

Diner on East Avenue.

And there was an incident with other patrons there.

I was just with a friend.

We weren't romantically involved,

or doing anything romantic.

We just gone there for something to eat after being out at a bar

I think.

And they were being verbally abusive toward us and stuff.

And then the manager came over and told

us to leave instead of telling them to leave.

But that time, you know we didn't know if they

were going to follow us out.

EVELYN BAILEY: When you again, look back the political arena

certainly changed.

How did having out gay politicians on city council

primarily affect or change the climate?

Or did it?

PAUL SCHEIB: It certainly made it more public.

I don't know how much it changed the climate.

I mean it's not like when Tim and Bill, when they were

on city council and stuff, they were never

pushing for gay rights while they were there.

And even before that, I think we all

know that we had gay marriage before that.

They we're never out.

I think the climate changed not just from them

but for everybody just being more open.

I think you know again, I mean I think

the parade in my opinion, had more to do with that.

People realizing being comfortable enough

in their own skin to public about their sexuality.

And about coming the parade and being

seen at home in the parade.

We've never had any violence at the parades

either when I was doing it or since.

That that's always been a safe space.

The Gay Alliance picnic for the thirty or however many years

it's been going for, there's never been a time of violence

at that picnic.

That safe space has been created.

Gay youth have always had a safe place to come at the Alliance.

So I think the care-- and I think the care

that the members of the Alliance or the board of the Alliance

or whoever that we consciously made

in providing that space helped people come into their own.

And nurtured them enough to get into the own where we have

what we have today.

EVELYN BAILEY: Now, you are also involved

kind of around the same time with Dignity-Integrity.

Before I go there though, did you ever think in your lifetime

that you would see marriage equality become

a reality for you in New York?

PAUL SCHEIB: When I first came out, when I first got involved,

I don't even think it was on the radar of ever even being

a possibility.

You know that wasn't on the radar at the time.

We were doing the other things.

I remember gays in military was on the radar then.

You know and then--

EVELYN BAILEY: Unemployment discrimination.

Housing discrimination.

PAUL SCHEIB: Right.

But I never would have thought that twenty-five years later

that I'm married.

EVELYN BAILEY: Was domestic partnership

benefits a big thing for you?

Being passed by the city, certainly not by the county?

PAUL SCHEIB: Certainly it was.

I remember David and I did go down and register the day

that it passed.

We were one of the first set of couples who were there.

In our house we displayed our certificate.

You know even now I think it's still up on the wall.

I don't think we've replaced it with our marriage license

or anything like that.

Not that it offered any benefit, but at least it was a symbol.

It was symbolic in that the city respected our relationship.

EVELYN BAILEY: Now, there were oftentimes

members of the community getting married not legally,

but in terms of religious ritual that,

and I believe in some churches like the Episcopal church,

that marriage was legal.

PAUL SCHEIB: Recognized.

Legal but it was recognized.

EVELYN BAILEY: Dignity-Integrity provided for people

another safe space to be.

PAUL SCHEIB: In fact, Dignity-Integrity

actually wrote the commitment ceremony

that is used by the Episcopal church for same sex couples.

EVELYN BAILEY: And in terms of Dignity,

what was the relationship between DI

and the Catholic church during that period of time

that you were involved?

PAUL SCHEIB: Well, certainly the Catholic church

knew of the existence of Dignity.

And early on, well not early on, but I

mean for the longest time, the Catholic church

whether they knew or not didn't forbid priests

for saying Catholic services for gay men and women.

So they were allowed to do so.

Even before-- it even predates Matthew Clark.

I mean it even went back when Hogan

was a bishop before Clark.

EVELYN BAILEY: Hogan.

PAUL SCHEIB: That actually started in '77

and Joe Hogan was the bishop then.

And actually I mean Dignity-Integrity

it was viewed as a collaborative effort between the Roman

Catholic diocese and the Episcopal diocese.

I mean we've always been the oldest standing Roman Catholic

and Episcopal--

EVELYN BAILEY: Chapter.

PAUL SCHEIB: Chapter in the country.

But it's the only sign of actual cooperation between the two

faiths in Rochester as well.

EVELYN BAILEY: And during the 80s and 90s,

where were services held and who was the Episcopal counterpart

to the Catholic counterpart?

I mean it was Bishop Hogan when and was it was a Bishop Spears?

PAUL SCHEIB: I don't know who the Episcopal bishop was.

Not being Episcopalian myself.

But then it continued on through the succession of Episcopal

because there's been more Episcopal bishops than there

were Catholic bishops.

I mean there was rotating services between Roman Catholic

and Episcopal services that were said by a priest

with communion distributed at each service.

EVELYN BAILEY: And where were those held?

PAUL SCHEIB: They were at St. Luke's.

Then it became St. Luke's and St. Simon's.

But it's always been at Fincher Street, starting.

Bruce Hanson opened up his church.

The first service was Easter Sunday in I think 1977.

And then it wasn't incorporated until later--

until September of that year they got their filing.

At that time in the late 80s, early 90s,

I think it was probably at its peak as far as members go.

It was not uncommon that you would have over 120 people

at a service a night.

They were every Sunday night.

The number of Catholics who belong to Dignity-Integrity was

large enough that we qualified to be in--

I don't remember when exactly.

But in the 90s, Bishop Clark convened a sit-in

for all Catholic communities.

And you had-- I think it was you had

to have at least 100 Catholics to be

considered in the community.

Or if you didn't, you would--

needed it.

But Dignity had over 100 Roman Catholics.

So we were actually allowed to take part in the sit-in.

We actually two representatives who

represented of Dignity-Integrity to the larger diocesan

and large diocesan process.

So I mean I think that's probably

one of the pinnacles of Dignity's

involvement in the sit-in.

I don't think in very many other communities

would Dignity have been allowed to be part of the sit-in.

EVELYN BAILEY: But you had a seat at the table.

PAUL SCHEIB: Right.

EVELYN BAILEY: And when was it that Bishop Clark held

the mass at the cathedral and do you have a sense of why

he chose to do that?

PAUL SCHEIB: I think he was listening to,

as any good shepherd should, I think

he was listening to his flock.

And he was responding to those in his flock,

from what he was hearing, not just from Dignity-Integrity

but from at that time a lot of us

were members of Dignity-Integrity

went beyond just going to service

at that Dignity-Integrity and we were in the local parishes

as well.

And so he was hearing there were concerns from the larger

diocesan missions.

Again, he was being a good shepherd

in responding to his flock.

EVELYN BAILEY: Do you remember the year?

PAUL SCHEIB: I'd say '97 maybe.

I'm not 100% sure about that.

EVELYN BAILEY: Later 90s versus earlier 90s.

PAUL SCHEIB: Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: Do you recall when the climate changed?

PAUL SCHEIB: Not long after that.

Sometime in the early 2000s, you know Matthew got called to Rome

and was told that you know Roman Catholic priests could

no longer be allowed to say mass at Dignity, Dignity-Integrity.

So that's when they had to change their services over.

EVELYN BAILEY: Do you have a sense that

was happening at the same time as (unintelligible) issues were

rising to the surface with a parallel in some way.

PAUL SCHEIB: Well, I think (unintelligible)

was much earlier I think.

This was more involved with the whole Christian spirituals,

I think there was that going on at the same time this was,

I think he would you know, Matthew

was getting in trouble because of Jim Callahan and stuff.

What was going on there.

And so they all sort of meld together in that.

EVELYN BAILEY: Paul, do you still

you consider yourself a Catholic?

PAUL SCHEIB: Yeah.

I still attend Sunday service every week.

I'm active in my parish.

I'm a member of the choir, I'm a lector,

I'm a Eucharistic minister.

EVELYN BAILEY: What is it that allows

you to do that knowing the way the hierarchical church

anyway responds to LGBT people?

PAUL SCHEIB: I truly believe that change will only

come from within.

It's not changed within the Roman Catholic church.

It's not going to be a top down thing.

It's going to come from the bottom up.

So if we leave, it's not going to happen.

And so I'm committed to the fight.

EVELYN BAILEY: So when look go back and think

about Paul Scheib, how do you want people to remember you?

What do you want people to say about you?

In terms of LGBT?

You're very, very, very well accomplished

in your profession, in the work that you

did before you became a--

PAUL SCHEIB: I think I would hope

that they would think that I helped make a difference.

Between everything I did with and through the Alliance,

the parade, ACT UP, the television show,

the Word Is Out.

That we helped to create a level where they were comfortable.

EVELYN BAILEY: The television show.

Talk to me about that.

PAUL SCHEIB: Actually, that's was the reason why

I left the Alliance.

This was 1993 when community television became the rage.

So I actually was producer and had

people we put on a monthly television show called

the Word Is Out, where we talked about gay issues of the day.

Different shows had different things.

Some were variety type shows.

So we did news reports.

We also had people who wanted to do skits.

So they would come on and do a skit,

whether it be in the studio or on location and stuff

like that.

We did a cooking segment.

We had a cooking segment.

But it was again, just another vehicle

for people to see themselves portrayed on TV at a time

when this was before LOGO.

Before most of the major networks

had gay or lesbian characters.

Or when you did, you never saw them kiss.

Or you never saw them be intimate or anything.

You know so we created the arena for them.

The biggest problem was that unfortunately you had

to be a resident of the city.

You didn't air outside of the city of Rochester.

You had to be a local resident to get that community access

channel.

EVELYN BAILEY: Where did you broadcast from?

PAUL SCHEIB: It's broadcast from the community access television

station off of St. Paul street.

We did the editing there.

EVELYN BAILEY: Who would have tapes of that?

PAUL SCHEIB: I have all of them.

EVELYN BAILEY: Oh.

PAUL SCHEIB: Yeah.

I have tapes of all the episodes.

Yeah.

I meant tell you that.

We have that to add to the archives too.

EVELYN BAILEY: That I think well I

think Kevin Indovino of 21 whose producer director would

be very interested in seeing some of that.

PAUL SCHEIB: But on VHS so I don't know how you know.

EVELYN BAILEY: Oh he has the ability to convert