Audio Interview, Paul Scheib, March 14, 2013

  • EVELYN BAILEY: Today's date is March 14th Thursday.
  • And I'm here with Paul Scheib, who
  • was a past president of the Alliance
  • and who was involved with ACT UP Rochester during the 80s.
  • And so I want to begin kind of my discussion
  • with Paul by asking, how did you become involved in the Gay
  • Alliance?
  • Or which came first, ACT UP or the Gay Alliance?
  • PAUL SCHEIB: Oh.
  • I think there were actually-- well,
  • I mean they were simultaneous.
  • But I think I was actually involved with the Gay Alliance
  • previous to ACT UP.
  • I think I was already sitting on the board of the Alliance
  • before we first sort of organized ACT UP in Rochester.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And first of all, how did you
  • come to be on the board?
  • And second of all, how did you meet ACT UP?
  • How did you get connected?
  • PAUL SCHEIB: Well, I got involved with the Gay Alliance
  • back in the day when the Gay Alliance--
  • all gay organizations in the Rochester community
  • were offered a seat on the board.
  • So I served on the board of the Alliance
  • as a representative from the Rochester Historical Bowling
  • Society.
  • And then through that Martin Hiraga
  • was also on the board at the Alliance.
  • And so it was through the Alliance that I met Martin.
  • And Martin and I co-founded ACT UP together.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And tell me a little bit about Martin,
  • and the formation of ACT UP.
  • Was it his idea?
  • Was it your idea?
  • Did you--
  • PAUL SCHEIB: It was very much his idea.
  • I mean he was very in tune with what
  • was going on with ACT UP on a national level.
  • Especially ACT UP New York and New York City.
  • He was much closer to the AIDS, the AIDS activist community
  • than I was.
  • And so it partly was Martin's dynamic personality
  • that drew me to.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: What was the purpose of ACT UP?
  • PAUL SCHEIB: ACT UP serve to politicize
  • and in some way to draw attention to the AIDS crisis.
  • I mean because we were living through the Reagan
  • administration where we had a president who for seven years
  • while in office never mentioned the word AIDS.
  • And so there are many people with HIV and people with AIDS
  • who were being discriminated against in housing, employment,
  • even in hospital settings where doctors, nurses were refusing
  • to treat them.
  • Pharmaceutical companies.
  • The other big push for ACT UP was
  • that the pharmaceutical companies weren't developing
  • and bringing to market drugs at a quick enough pace
  • to keep up with the crisis.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And was your focus on local, state, federal?
  • PAUL SCHEIB: All of the above.
  • I mean I think wherever there is an opportunity
  • to draw attention or to link AIDS in the fight for people
  • with AIDS and HIV to whatever political argument was going
  • on, we used that.
  • I mean I think one of our proudest moments
  • was when the presidential debate in 1988
  • was held at Eastman Theater.
  • Because of the presence of ACT UP outside the Eastman Theater,
  • the first question asked at that presidential debate to both
  • candidates who in '88 was Walter Mondale and George Bush,
  • George Bush Sr.--
  • the first question posed to both of them was what would
  • you do in the AIDS crisis.
  • And that's the first time that that had ever been brought up
  • in a presidential debate.
  • And for that to be the very first question asked,
  • well, that was a proud moment for us.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Would you identify
  • that moment as the first time nationally those two candidates
  • were asked to address the issue?
  • PAUL SCHEIB: Yep.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: So nowhere else in the country
  • were they being asked about this?
  • PAUL SCHEIB: Until that debate.
  • Yeah.
  • I mean it may have been.
  • But it wasn't.
  • I mean that obviously, drew the focus of the nation
  • because it was the presidential debate.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
  • PAUL SCHEIB: And whether they were mentioning it
  • in their stump speeches or not, I don't recall at that time.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: What actions did you
  • take as a group to bring focus to your desire
  • to link AIDS and the political arena together?
  • What were some of the actions here in Rochester?
  • PAUL SCHEIB: Some of the actions in Rochester, I mean again,
  • they were going on politically on the federal level,
  • the federal government had restricted women's health
  • services.
  • And so we linked that women have HIV, women have AIDS.
  • So linking that restriction on those rights for women,
  • we linked that as well.
  • So that was a major push when did a demonstration
  • outside the federal building linking that.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Did you protest in other places?
  • PAUL SCHEIB: Yeah.
  • We took part in protests that were going on
  • in Albany on a state level.
  • We took part in protests that were going on
  • at a national level outside the National Institute of Health
  • in Bethesda, Maryland.
  • So we were small, but we made sure
  • that we were being represented.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Talk to me a little bit about Martin.
  • What kind of a person was he?
  • What gave him his chutzpah?
  • His energy?
  • PAUL SCHEIB: I don't know where he got
  • all of his energy to be honest.
  • He was a dynamic person who had the most infectious laugh.
  • Anyone could tell you that it would just draw you in.
  • But he was passionate.
  • Pro or con, I don't think there is anything
  • that he didn't have a passionate response for one
  • way or the other.
  • Again, he just had a dynamic force
  • that you wanted to be around.
  • I mean I think I'm richer for knowing him--
  • for having known him.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Looking back, how effective would you
  • say ACT UP Rochester was on the local level?
  • And I know you weren't involved with New York City,
  • but how effective was ACT UP on a national level?
  • PAUL SCHEIB: On a local level, it's hard to assess.
  • I mean I don't know the depths of the discrimination and such
  • that was going on locally compared to
  • on a more national level.
  • I think ACT UP as an organization was much more
  • effective on a national level, especially when you
  • look at the demonstrations done in New York.
  • You know stopping traffic on the Brooklyn Bridge
  • or stopping traffic on Wall Street.
  • The die ins that were done to demonstrate the amount
  • of people who were dying.
  • You know locally, I think part of our dilemma
  • was that we never attracted a large number of people
  • to the group.
  • So it's hard to do mass things like that when you only
  • have six or seven people.
  • You know.
  • That's where I think trying to tie
  • in the other issues of the day was more important for us.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: How long were you involved with ACT UP?
  • How long was Martin here in Rochester?
  • Do you recall?
  • PAUL SCHEIB: It was only until around '90, '91
  • or so that's when Martin moved to Washington DC.
  • And so it was a brief time.
  • It was probably only from like maybe '87 to '90
  • or so that ACT UP Rochester really went on.
  • And then when Martin left, I had other responsibilities.
  • In '91 I became president of The Gay Alliance.
  • So I had other things that came in.
  • Knowing that I was president of The Alliance
  • I couldn't quite be as--
  • I didn't want to hurt The Alliance
  • by continuing to be as radical as needed to be.
  • I didn't want to hurt funding for The Alliance in any way.
  • So I sort of stepped back as doing some of that.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Where does the parade in this development?
  • PAUL SCHEIB: 1988 is when we did a march down Monroe Avenue.
  • When we say we, I mean ACT UP did a march down Monroe Avenue.
  • And then a kiss-in at the corner of Monroe Avenue and Goodman
  • next to the Avenue Pub.
  • So that in my opinion, and I think
  • I'm the only one who holds that opinion,
  • is the first gay pride parade in Rochester.
  • So when everybody else claims the next year as the first,
  • I don't because that for me was the first pride parade.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: OK.
  • PAUL SCHEIB: Though it wasn't billed as such.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Was is billed as an ACT UP--
  • PAUL SCHEIB: It was.
  • I was billed as an ACT UP function.
  • I don't remember what the actual title of it was.
  • But I'm not sure.
  • You know.
  • So yeah.
  • But I mean the night was actually
  • a commemoration of Stonewall because it took place
  • on June 28th, the night of the anniversary of the Stonewall
  • Riots.
  • So that's what it was billed as.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And in the next year?
  • PAUL SCHEIB: The next year we actually, you
  • know, we applied--
  • I applied for a permit from the city.
  • And was granted a permit from the city.
  • And so we marched down Main Street.
  • We purposely wanted to be as public as possible.
  • And we purposely wanted to be as disruptive as we could.
  • So we chose to walk down Main Street starting
  • at 6:00 PM on purpose.
  • And so the parade route went from Crossroads Park
  • at the corner behind the first federal building,
  • and then it ended at the Liberty Pole at Liberty Square.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And how many years did you organize this?
  • PAUL SCHEIB: I was the organizer of the parade the first five
  • years of its existence.
  • For the first six years because of the kiss-in the first year.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: So from 1988 to 1994?
  • PAUL SCHEIB: '93 I think it was.
  • Yeah.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: OK.
  • And over that period of time, how did that parade, that event
  • change?
  • I mean did it grow in numbers?
  • PAUL SCHEIB: It grew in numbers.
  • I mean I remember in the very beginning,
  • you know the first couple of years,
  • there were more people who were willing to watch
  • from the sidewalk than were willing to participate.
  • And I think over the years, that number lessened--
  • that more people are willing to participate in the parade.
  • More people felt comfortable enough or whatever
  • that they were able to.
  • And I think part of it is because of the parade's
  • existence that it gave them a sense of that they
  • didn't have to worry about being out in their own community.
  • Because there would be tons of people.
  • And I mean prior to that, there would
  • be tons of people who would go to New York for the pride
  • parade or they go to Toronto for the pride parade.
  • But it's different to march in your own town.
  • If you were on TV in New York City,
  • if you're on TV in Toronto, it's not going to be seen locally.
  • But when you have local television cameras,
  • that's a lot different.
  • And that was harder for people to deal with.
  • But I think that lessened over the years,
  • and people didn't care who saw them on TV.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Do you recall how many groups were participating
  • by the time you stopped?
  • I mean were there church groups?
  • Was there the Troublemakers?
  • The band, I think it was Basically Trouble.
  • PAUL SCHEIB: Basically Trouble.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Were there politicians?
  • Were there?
  • PAUL SCHEIB: In the beginning, we didn't really
  • organize ourselves as groups.
  • I think the first group that came,
  • and that's why we gave them the place of honor,
  • was it I don't know if they're defined as such a group or not,
  • but what's considered the Dykes on Bikes.
  • They were always the first ones that came on.
  • And that's why for the five years that I ran the parade
  • they always went first because they were the first on board.
  • But other than them, the first year
  • was just whoever wanted to come, just come and march
  • with whomever and be there.
  • But by the fifth year, yes, we didn't
  • have politicians at that point.
  • But we did have some churches that identified themselves
  • as being gay friendly.
  • Like Downtown United Presbyterian Church
  • comes to mind.
  • So they were marching.
  • And more of the community was here.
  • Basically, Troublemakers hadn't formed yet.
  • I don't think.
  • But there was the Big Apple Bugle Corps
  • or something of that nature.
  • And so they actually came from New York and played.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And was the route longer?
  • I mean when you first began, you went from Crossroads Park
  • to the Liberty Pole.
  • PAUL SCHEIB: Right.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And then I think you
  • shared with me some time ago, the second year was
  • from the Liberty Pole to Crossroads Park.
  • PAUL SCHEIB: Correct.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And then--
  • PAUL SCHEIB: And that was only a larger space for the rally
  • afterwards.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: So it would end in a rally?
  • PAUL SCHEIB: Right.
  • In the beginning it would always end
  • and we had political statements.
  • We had musicians who came.
  • Leah Zaccaria from Buffalo would come and perform for us.
  • We didn't have politicians per se,
  • but we did have people who were involved in the gay and lesbian
  • rights movement who would be giving speeches as well.
  • And so the first year, when we were at Liberty Pole Square,
  • we didn't really have a place to accommodate that.
  • And that's why we reversed the parade route the next year
  • so we had a place to accommodate that.
  • And I think we actually did that for two years.
  • And then in an attempt to bring more people,
  • we changed the parade route to be more
  • into sort of like the gay ghetto area.
  • And that's when we started at the corner of Park
  • and Berkeley, went from Park and Berkeley
  • down to Cobb's Hill Park.
  • And then we had the rally next to Lake Riley.
  • And then the last year again, in an attempt
  • to bring people together, we started the parade
  • at the Highland Bowl.
  • It went down and it ended at the Genesee Valley Park
  • to lead everyone into the GAGV picnic.
  • But I think that was the time that I
  • thought we finally made it.
  • Because I remember every year I would be running back and forth
  • through the parade.
  • But I remember being at the corner of Elmwood and Mount
  • Hope, and turning around and looking back
  • and there were still people funnelling down Elmwood Avenue
  • from the South Avenue.
  • And that was a very good feeling.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: While you were doing the parade,
  • you became president of The Gay Alliance.
  • Can you kind of describe what The Gay Alliance Activities
  • Board was in the early 1990s?
  • I mean was it a volunteer board?
  • Did you have paid staff?
  • PAUL SCHEIB: It was a volunteer board.
  • I believe there was only two paid staff members.
  • There was the editor for the Empty Closet.
  • And then we had a part time office
  • manager, who at that time was Joe Carroll, I believe.
  • Well, and then we had a couple contract people
  • because we had someone who was contracted to sell
  • the ads in the Empty Closet--
  • Harlo Russell.
  • So those were the only real employees of The Alliance
  • per se.
  • Everything else was done volunteer.
  • We had a hot line that was manned
  • by volunteers every night, seven nights a week
  • from like I believe it was 7:00 to 11:00.
  • At that time, we had moved into a larger space, but still too
  • small of a space for us to do all of our activities
  • at the Genesee Valley Cooperative on Monroe Avenue.
  • We had from the back corner where
  • we were into the sunken room.
  • But it still wasn't a large enough space
  • to produce the Empty Closet as well as doing the activities
  • of The Gay Alliance.
  • So we were in the process of purchasing.
  • A lot of the activities of the Alliance at that time
  • were around getting funding and trying
  • to find a space of our own, and buying our own building.
  • And you obviously you know.
  • You were instrumental in that effort
  • in buying the facility on Atlantic Avenue.
  • So the Alliance was an umbrella organization.
  • Any gay and lesbian organization within the city
  • were welcome to we felt should be
  • under the umbrella of the Gay Alliance.
  • At that time, a lot of groups were coming into their own.
  • The black community came to the Alliance
  • and that's where most MOCHA was developed
  • from in the early 90s.
  • The Gay and Lesbian Film Festival came to the Alliance
  • again, in the early 90s seeking a grant for seed money--
  • or for a grant.
  • And I remember that we let them use our name
  • and use our 501c3 status to get the grant from Arch
  • for Greater Rochester for them.
  • And then the space that we had as a sunken room was
  • used by just about every group in the community.
  • We had library service that people
  • could come and check out books.
  • We had a lot of people who were coming out
  • who didn't know what it was like to come out.
  • So they utilized the library for those resources.
  • You know.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Was there a coffee house?
  • PAUL SCHEIB: Yes.
  • I believe there was a coffee house on Saturday nights.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Was there a youth group?
  • PAUL SCHEIB: There was a youth group
  • that was on Sunday afternoons.
  • From the Alliance there was and even different groups.
  • I mean Come Out and Play, which was a group for younger
  • gay men, sort of used our space for their meetings and stuff
  • like that to organize what their events were going to be.
  • The Cooking Group started from that time.
  • From the coffeehouse a bunch of men
  • got together that wanted to cook together.
  • So that's how that impetus came out.
  • There's a women's group.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Lesbian Resource Center.
  • PAUL SCHEIB: Lesbian Resource Center
  • was going on at that time.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Was there a speakers bureau?
  • PAUL SCHEIB: As long as I remember
  • there's a speaking bureau.
  • Even before that time.
  • And they went to high schools, colleges, businesses.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And who went to speak?
  • PAUL SCHEIB: People who were volunteers.
  • People volunteered to be in the speaker's bureau.
  • And then they were trained by staff or from the Alliance
  • to give them more information, and to help them
  • with their public speaking ability.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Talk to me a little bit
  • about the youth group.
  • Was that run by volunteers?
  • Was that-- everything was run.
  • PAUL SCHEIB: Everything was run by volunteers.
  • Again, the only paid staff was the editor
  • of the Empty Closet--
  • you know really.
  • And again, our office manager.
  • But the office manager wasn't at that time,
  • wasn't a program director.
  • It developed into a program director
  • later on down the road.
  • But at that time, there wasn't.
  • So even the youth group--
  • and they were sort of in a way vetted.
  • Because of the fear of being seen as having youth group
  • volunteers as recruiters.
  • You know I mean the Gay Alliance took care--
  • to great time and care in selecting
  • who would be chosen as a leader for the youth group
  • to make sure that there was no issues with pedophilia.
  • So this way we felt comfortable that we wouldn't
  • have to worry about any child abuse claims from the parents
  • that we were coercing their children into being there
  • or anything of that nature.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: In terms of speaking engagements,
  • was it primarily to schools?
  • Or was it to businesses?
  • Or was it to other gay groups?
  • Or other groups in the city?
  • Do you have a sense of that?
  • PAUL SCHEIB: Well, I think there was a lot of all of it.
  • I mean I remember doing you know there was quite a few schools,
  • but I think mostly was to businesses trying.
  • At that time you know diversity training
  • was getting more en vogue with a lot of corporations and stuff
  • like that.
  • So the Alliance did more of the local corporations.
  • And I think from that is where a lot of the local Fortune 500
  • type companies started developing their own gay
  • and lesbian support groups for their employees and stuff
  • like that.
  • I remember going myself to other gay and lesbian communities.
  • I remember going to especially in the Finger Lakes, where
  • they felt more isolated in a more rural community.
  • And tried to get them to help develop their own community
  • resource centers type of thing.
  • So we were doing that as well.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: There were a couple
  • of men in the community at the time who really stayed
  • with the Alliance a long time.
  • One was Horace--
  • Horace Lethbridge.
  • PAUL SCHEIB: Yeah.
  • He was president of the Alliance for many years.
  • And then even after that you know
  • he was with a youth group for many, many years.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And he did Omega?
  • And was the Wellesley Center operative at that point?
  • PAUL SCHEIB: I believe so.
  • I didn't really know what its affiliation was
  • with the Alliance and stuff.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Well, I don't think it had an affiliation.
  • Just that Horace was one of the counselors and Barb Debs
  • was the other.
  • And then the other person who I think
  • had tremendous impact on the Alliance
  • from a conservative perspective was Harlow Russell.
  • PAUL SCHEIB: Well, he may have been conservative
  • in his financial views.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
  • PAUL SCHEIB: But I would never call Harlow conservative.
  • He would be rolling over in his grave
  • if he would of heard himself being called a conservative.
  • I think the Alliance owes people like Harlow
  • a great deal because I mean he on the years
  • that I served on the finance committee with him,
  • I mean he was invaluable to the Alliance
  • in making sure that we stayed within our budget.
  • That if we didn't have the money, we didn't spend it.
  • You know that we have the money before
  • made any purchases, which gets a lot of other organizations
  • in trouble.
  • But in his politics, I mean Harlow,
  • while he was third order Franciscan brother,
  • he was also a radical fairy.
  • Harlow was a liberationist.
  • I mean when you look at the liberationist
  • or assimilationist, I mean Harlow was definitely
  • a liberationist in the best sense of the word.
  • And in fact, there's a picture of Harlow
  • at the corner of Park Avenue and Berkeley Street,
  • which is the first time that he was
  • in his fairy drag in public.
  • And I got a lot of flack from a lot of the assimilationists
  • in the Rochester gay community for allowing that picture
  • to be taken because they felt that it was portraying
  • the stereotype of the gay community and men in drag.
  • And it was nothing of the sort.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: What were the radical fairies?
  • Who are they?
  • PAUL SCHEIB: I mean I don't know a lot
  • about the radical fairies.
  • I believe they were founded in the 50s.
  • It's a spiritual organization.
  • It's spiritual freedom.
  • Harlow invited me to many fairy gatherings,
  • but I never attended.
  • So I don't know much about the fairies.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Paul, during the course
  • of the time that you were involved with the Alliance,
  • either on the board, president of the board, or after,
  • what were the donations?
  • What was total budget for the year?
  • Hundreds?
  • PAUL SCHEIB: No.
  • I don't think it was near a hundred.
  • I mean I think you know the bulk of the donations,
  • you know, we had the one big fundraiser form the Alliance
  • perspective was the picnic.
  • And I think most years the picnic brought
  • in maybe $12,000, $15,000.
  • The Empty Closet-- usually the ads
  • brought in from the Empty Closet generally paid
  • for the salary of the editor, sometimes not though.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And printing.
  • PAUL SCHEIB: Yeah.
  • We were United Way Part D. So this way,
  • instead of getting donations directly from the United Way
  • we were designating groups of people
  • when they wanted to do their United Way fund raising could
  • designate us for their funds.
  • But only by a designation do we get money
  • through the United Way.
  • Yes.
  • I think maybe the total budget was maybe
  • only $20,000 to $30,000 I think.
  • We nickeled and dimed it.
  • We got by however we had to.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: By the skin of our teeth in many ways.
  • PAUL SCHEIB: Yeah.
  • So this way when ImageOut became ImageOut,
  • when Larry Champeau came and asked for $1,000,
  • I think it was, to help back the first film festival.
  • And that was a lot of money.
  • Because we'd just taken a loss the year before when
  • we tried to do that convention.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Pink Flamingos and Purple Hearts.
  • PAUL SCHEIB: Yeah.
  • When we tried to do that.
  • So we were leery about--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Funding another--
  • PAUL SCHEIB: Funding another thing
  • that we were afraid it was going to turn out
  • to be another thing like that.
  • Luckily, it didn't.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Now that you've been away
  • from the Alliance for a number of years, looking back what
  • was your most proud moment?
  • PAUL SCHEIB: I think my most proud moment was
  • when we purchased the building at Atlantic Avenue,
  • the city refused to recognize our tax exempt status,
  • and refused to give us taxes on privileges for the property
  • tax.
  • And I think my proudest moment was actually
  • being deposed by the city as the president of the Gay Alliance.
  • Because I remember the headline of the Times Union
  • newspaper the next day following that
  • was "The City Deposes GAGV President."
  • I just remember that I guess maybe in hindsight
  • since we won the case it was a very proud moment.
  • I think it set the groundwork for a lot of things.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Well, John Noble certainly
  • identifies that moment as defining
  • what education meant for organizations who did not
  • have a school, or a building, or classrooms,
  • or what one would traditionally think of as education.
  • And it also set the benchmark for alternative organizations
  • to hold property, to own property,
  • and to be exempt whether they were educational in nature
  • or not.
  • During your work either with the Alliance or with ACT UP,
  • was there ever a time in your life
  • where you were scared shitless because you were a gay man?
  • PAUL SCHEIB: I remember being out,
  • I mean no affiliation with the Alliance,
  • I mean I just remember being out late night
  • and I think we were at the Country Club
  • Diner on East Avenue.
  • And there was an incident with other patrons there.
  • I was just with a friend.
  • We weren't romantically involved,
  • or doing anything romantic.
  • We just gone there for something to eat after being out at a bar
  • I think.
  • And they were being verbally abusive toward us and stuff.
  • And then the manager came over and told
  • us to leave instead of telling them to leave.
  • But that time, you know we didn't know if they
  • were going to follow us out.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: When you again, look back the political arena
  • certainly changed.
  • How did having out gay politicians on city council
  • primarily affect or change the climate?
  • Or did it?
  • PAUL SCHEIB: It certainly made it more public.
  • I don't know how much it changed the climate.
  • I mean it's not like when Tim and Bill, when they were
  • on city council and stuff, they were never
  • pushing for gay rights while they were there.
  • And even before that, I think we all
  • know that we had gay marriage before that.
  • They we're never out.
  • I think the climate changed not just from them
  • but for everybody just being more open.
  • I think you know again, I mean I think
  • the parade in my opinion, had more to do with that.
  • People realizing being comfortable enough
  • in their own skin to public about their sexuality.
  • And about coming the parade and being
  • seen at home in the parade.
  • We've never had any violence at the parades
  • either when I was doing it or since.
  • That that's always been a safe space.
  • The Gay Alliance picnic for the thirty or however many years
  • it's been going for, there's never been a time of violence
  • at that picnic.
  • That safe space has been created.
  • Gay youth have always had a safe place to come at the Alliance.
  • So I think the care-- and I think the care
  • that the members of the Alliance or the board of the Alliance
  • or whoever that we consciously made
  • in providing that space helped people come into their own.
  • And nurtured them enough to get into the own where we have
  • what we have today.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Now, you are also involved
  • kind of around the same time with Dignity-Integrity.
  • Before I go there though, did you ever think in your lifetime
  • that you would see marriage equality become
  • a reality for you in New York?
  • PAUL SCHEIB: When I first came out, when I first got involved,
  • I don't even think it was on the radar of ever even being
  • a possibility.
  • You know that wasn't on the radar at the time.
  • We were doing the other things.
  • I remember gays in military was on the radar then.
  • You know and then--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Unemployment discrimination.
  • Housing discrimination.
  • PAUL SCHEIB: Right.
  • But I never would have thought that twenty-five years later
  • that I'm married.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Was domestic partnership
  • benefits a big thing for you?
  • Being passed by the city, certainly not by the county?
  • PAUL SCHEIB: Certainly it was.
  • I remember David and I did go down and register the day
  • that it passed.
  • We were one of the first set of couples who were there.
  • In our house we displayed our certificate.
  • You know even now I think it's still up on the wall.
  • I don't think we've replaced it with our marriage license
  • or anything like that.
  • Not that it offered any benefit, but at least it was a symbol.
  • It was symbolic in that the city respected our relationship.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Now, there were oftentimes
  • members of the community getting married not legally,
  • but in terms of religious ritual that,
  • and I believe in some churches like the Episcopal church,
  • that marriage was legal.
  • PAUL SCHEIB: Recognized.
  • Legal but it was recognized.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Dignity-Integrity provided for people
  • another safe space to be.
  • PAUL SCHEIB: In fact, Dignity-Integrity
  • actually wrote the commitment ceremony
  • that is used by the Episcopal church for same sex couples.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And in terms of Dignity,
  • what was the relationship between DI
  • and the Catholic church during that period of time
  • that you were involved?
  • PAUL SCHEIB: Well, certainly the Catholic church
  • knew of the existence of Dignity.
  • And early on, well not early on, but I
  • mean for the longest time, the Catholic church
  • whether they knew or not didn't forbid priests
  • for saying Catholic services for gay men and women.
  • So they were allowed to do so.
  • Even before-- it even predates Matthew Clark.
  • I mean it even went back when Hogan
  • was a bishop before Clark.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Hogan.
  • PAUL SCHEIB: That actually started in '77
  • and Joe Hogan was the bishop then.
  • And actually I mean Dignity-Integrity
  • it was viewed as a collaborative effort between the Roman
  • Catholic diocese and the Episcopal diocese.
  • I mean we've always been the oldest standing Roman Catholic
  • and Episcopal--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Chapter.
  • PAUL SCHEIB: Chapter in the country.
  • But it's the only sign of actual cooperation between the two
  • faiths in Rochester as well.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And during the 80s and 90s,
  • where were services held and who was the Episcopal counterpart
  • to the Catholic counterpart?
  • I mean it was Bishop Hogan when and was it was a Bishop Spears?
  • PAUL SCHEIB: I don't know who the Episcopal bishop was.
  • Not being Episcopalian myself.
  • But then it continued on through the succession of Episcopal
  • because there's been more Episcopal bishops than there
  • were Catholic bishops.
  • I mean there was rotating services between Roman Catholic
  • and Episcopal services that were said by a priest
  • with communion distributed at each service.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And where were those held?
  • PAUL SCHEIB: They were at St. Luke's.
  • Then it became St. Luke's and St. Simon's.
  • But it's always been at Fincher Street, starting.
  • Bruce Hanson opened up his church.
  • The first service was Easter Sunday in I think 1977.
  • And then it wasn't incorporated until later--
  • until September of that year they got their filing.
  • At that time in the late 80s, early 90s,
  • I think it was probably at its peak as far as members go.
  • It was not uncommon that you would have over 120 people
  • at a service a night.
  • They were every Sunday night.
  • The number of Catholics who belong to Dignity-Integrity was
  • large enough that we qualified to be in--
  • I don't remember when exactly.
  • But in the 90s, Bishop Clark convened a sit-in
  • for all Catholic communities.
  • And you had-- I think it was you had
  • to have at least 100 Catholics to be
  • considered in the community.
  • Or if you didn't, you would--
  • needed it.
  • But Dignity had over 100 Roman Catholics.
  • So we were actually allowed to take part in the sit-in.
  • We actually two representatives who
  • represented of Dignity-Integrity to the larger diocesan
  • and large diocesan process.
  • So I mean I think that's probably
  • one of the pinnacles of Dignity's
  • involvement in the sit-in.
  • I don't think in very many other communities
  • would Dignity have been allowed to be part of the sit-in.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: But you had a seat at the table.
  • PAUL SCHEIB: Right.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And when was it that Bishop Clark held
  • the mass at the cathedral and do you have a sense of why
  • he chose to do that?
  • PAUL SCHEIB: I think he was listening to,
  • as any good shepherd should, I think
  • he was listening to his flock.
  • And he was responding to those in his flock,
  • from what he was hearing, not just from Dignity-Integrity
  • but from at that time a lot of us
  • were members of Dignity-Integrity
  • went beyond just going to service
  • at that Dignity-Integrity and we were in the local parishes
  • as well.
  • And so he was hearing there were concerns from the larger
  • diocesan missions.
  • Again, he was being a good shepherd
  • in responding to his flock.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Do you remember the year?
  • PAUL SCHEIB: I'd say '97 maybe.
  • I'm not 100% sure about that.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Later 90s versus earlier 90s.
  • PAUL SCHEIB: Yeah.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Do you recall when the climate changed?
  • PAUL SCHEIB: Not long after that.
  • Sometime in the early 2000s, you know Matthew got called to Rome
  • and was told that you know Roman Catholic priests could
  • no longer be allowed to say mass at Dignity, Dignity-Integrity.
  • So that's when they had to change their services over.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Do you have a sense that
  • was happening at the same time as (unintelligible) issues were
  • rising to the surface with a parallel in some way.
  • PAUL SCHEIB: Well, I think (unintelligible)
  • was much earlier I think.
  • This was more involved with the whole Christian spirituals,
  • I think there was that going on at the same time this was,
  • I think he would you know, Matthew
  • was getting in trouble because of Jim Callahan and stuff.
  • What was going on there.
  • And so they all sort of meld together in that.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Paul, do you still
  • you consider yourself a Catholic?
  • PAUL SCHEIB: Yeah.
  • I still attend Sunday service every week.
  • I'm active in my parish.
  • I'm a member of the choir, I'm a lector,
  • I'm a Eucharistic minister.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: What is it that allows
  • you to do that knowing the way the hierarchical church
  • anyway responds to LGBT people?
  • PAUL SCHEIB: I truly believe that change will only
  • come from within.
  • It's not changed within the Roman Catholic church.
  • It's not going to be a top down thing.
  • It's going to come from the bottom up.
  • So if we leave, it's not going to happen.
  • And so I'm committed to the fight.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: So when look go back and think
  • about Paul Scheib, how do you want people to remember you?
  • What do you want people to say about you?
  • In terms of LGBT?
  • You're very, very, very well accomplished
  • in your profession, in the work that you
  • did before you became a--
  • PAUL SCHEIB: I think I would hope
  • that they would think that I helped make a difference.
  • Between everything I did with and through the Alliance,
  • the parade, ACT UP, the television show,
  • the Word Is Out.
  • That we helped to create a level where they were comfortable.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: The television show.
  • Talk to me about that.
  • PAUL SCHEIB: Actually, that's was the reason why
  • I left the Alliance.
  • This was 1993 when community television became the rage.
  • So I actually was producer and had
  • people we put on a monthly television show called
  • the Word Is Out, where we talked about gay issues of the day.
  • Different shows had different things.
  • Some were variety type shows.
  • So we did news reports.
  • We also had people who wanted to do skits.
  • So they would come on and do a skit,
  • whether it be in the studio or on location and stuff
  • like that.
  • We did a cooking segment.
  • We had a cooking segment.
  • But it was again, just another vehicle
  • for people to see themselves portrayed on TV at a time
  • when this was before LOGO.
  • Before most of the major networks
  • had gay or lesbian characters.
  • Or when you did, you never saw them kiss.
  • Or you never saw them be intimate or anything.
  • You know so we created the arena for them.
  • The biggest problem was that unfortunately you had
  • to be a resident of the city.
  • You didn't air outside of the city of Rochester.
  • You had to be a local resident to get that community access
  • channel.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Where did you broadcast from?
  • PAUL SCHEIB: It's broadcast from the community access television
  • station off of St. Paul street.
  • We did the editing there.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Who would have tapes of that?
  • PAUL SCHEIB: I have all of them.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Oh.
  • PAUL SCHEIB: Yeah.
  • I have tapes of all the episodes.
  • Yeah.
  • I meant tell you that.
  • We have that to add to the archives too.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: That I think well I
  • think Kevin Indovino of 21 whose producer director would
  • be very interested in seeing some of that.
  • PAUL SCHEIB: But on VHS so I don't know how you know.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Oh he has the ability to convert
  • and actually he can do that totally.
  • But I don't want to commit him to that.
  • But even if you can identify a couple of those tapes
  • that might be of particular interest today
  • because my other two questions.
  • First question is what in your opinion,
  • is the next barrier to be torn down in terms of LGBT issues?
  • In terms of the gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender
  • community?
  • What needs to be the next Stonewall?
  • PAUL SCHEIB: I don't how easily that's identifiable.
  • I think certainly bullying and the effects of bullying
  • is a huge issue.
  • And I don't know how to address that.
  • As I said at the same time people
  • say you know studies show that young people are more
  • accepting of gay marriage and of gay men and lesbians.
  • At the same time, the suicide rates for gay youth
  • have not come down at all.
  • And that for me is disturbing that the statistics
  • haven't changed.
  • I don't what needs to be done to change that environment.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: So it is still then
  • the challenge of attitude and behavior.
  • PAUL SCHEIB: And I think that's still that attitude of that--
  • that feeling of isolation.
  • You know when you self identify yourself
  • as gay man or a lesbian.
  • That feeling of isolation still exist.
  • Regardless of Ellen or anything else out there.
  • And it's not just any, and you want
  • to think it's not in our community.
  • That it's only in the rural communities or something
  • like that.
  • But it's not.
  • You still have that same feeling of isolation.
  • And I think part of it is when you
  • see legislation tried to be passed in Tennessee where
  • they're trying to outlaw the word homosexual to be said
  • in schools.
  • That would increase that isolation.
  • Why we're still allowing legislation
  • like that to even come to the table
  • is something that needs to be done.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Is there still a need
  • for organizations and agencies like the Alliance?
  • PAUL SCHEIB: There's always going to need to be--
  • safe harbors.
  • There's always going to need to be a place where
  • people can meet other people.
  • Well, the environment may have changed enough
  • where the Alliance doesn't need to be this huge umbrella that
  • used to be for everyone.
  • There is still a need for groups like the Alliance
  • to provide that safe haven, that resource
  • center, that space for youth.
  • Drop-in youth or whatever.
  • Even for adults because a lot of people
  • go through marriages and stuff like and realize
  • that wasn't where they were at and everything.
  • So there's still that need for that.
  • I think there's still a need for the Empty Closet.
  • For as much the news that's in the Empty Closet,
  • the majority of that doesn't reach the mainstream media,
  • that the people are going to pick up from mainstream media.
  • And I'm sorry but a lot of the magazine's
  • that cater to the gay and lesbian population,
  • the amount of actual news in there is pitiful.
  • And so that's where something the publishing
  • a paper like the Empty Closet is important.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Final question.
  • What would you say to a young person
  • today who is just coming out?
  • What would you want to tell them about this life that
  • would be encouraging, helpful, affirming?
  • PAUL SCHEIB: Not to be cliche, but it does get better.
  • There are resources out there.
  • You'll find your home.
  • For me, it was when I found Dignity-Integrity
  • for the first time.
  • There was that sense of I'm home.
  • I'm comfortable here.
  • I'm safe here.
  • They exist.
  • And if you're not finding it, keep looking.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: OK.
  • Paul, thank you very much.
  • I personally think your contributions to this community
  • are more than significant.
  • Because you had not only the energy and the action, but you
  • had the vision.
  • And you looked at other people who had the vision
  • and allowed that to take root in you,
  • and for you to move with that.
  • It's a very different time, but the issues
  • that face the gay community are no different today
  • than they were 40 years ago.
  • We still have fear.
  • We still aren't accepted.
  • We still have individual battles that we have
  • to fight within and without.
  • And the work that you've done not only being president
  • of the Alliance, but the parade, the Historical Bowling Society.
  • I mean that name just it boggles the mind in some ways.
  • But--
  • PAUL SCHEIB: It's based on the Toronto Bowling Society,
  • but it actually when they started it was the Toronto
  • Hysterical Bowling Society because most of the people when
  • they were just coming to the league didn't know how to bowl,
  • so it was hysterical to watch them.
  • And then over the years it got changed to historical.
  • That's where that impetus comes from.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: But probably more than any of that
  • is your commitment to hang in there
  • and to keep working from within to effect positive change.
  • That's an incredible, it's an incredible commitment
  • to make because it's not easy.
  • PAUL SCHEIB: You've been doing it just as long.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Well, I've had a lot of support though.
  • I've had a lot of support.
  • You know.
  • PAUL SCHEIB: Well, yeah.
  • I've been lucky that I've had David.
  • I just told David that I'm going to go do this.
  • And he said, "OK."
  • You know that he hasn't had restraint.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And that's very important.
  • PAUL SCHEIB: Yeah.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Well, thank you.
  • I'm going to turn this off.