Audio Interview, Ralph Carter, April 1, 2012

  • EVELYN BAILEY: Ralph, when did you come to Rochester?
  • RALPH CARTER: Right out of college.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Do you want to share with me the year?
  • RALPH CARTER: It was 1979--
  • summer of '79.
  • And I started work at Xerox July 2nd, 1979.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: When did you get involved
  • with Third Pres, and the Pride In The Pulpit kind of work?
  • RALPH CARTER: Well, I was looking for a church home.
  • And I'd always been--
  • I grew up Presbyterian in Florida, went to Georgia Tech.
  • Stayed at the Presbyterian campus building,
  • until I joined a fraternity my sophomore year
  • and moved into the fraternity house.
  • And then I was coming out in college.
  • And so the question in my mind was,
  • can I integrate my sexuality and my spirituality?
  • So I moved to Rochester, and for about the first six months
  • I was living in Webster.
  • But I was always traveling into town.
  • So I said, I got to move into the city.
  • So I broke my lease.
  • (Laughs) And moved downtown with Mark Brzezinski, who
  • was moving from Jamestown, I guess it was at the same time.
  • And we met at DI--
  • I very quickly found DI.
  • So Mark and I got an apartment together,
  • because he was between jobs at the time--
  • when he first moved to Rochester,
  • leaving his marriage.
  • And so we became roommates.
  • And we were at 500 Park Avenue.
  • What a great address.
  • And they were ripping up the railroad ties--
  • you remember, from the trolley?
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
  • RALPH CARTER: Trolley tracks, '79-'80--
  • right around that time frame.
  • And our apartment was the corner Westminster and Park Avenue,
  • and it was right near the turnaround park
  • right there where the trolley turned
  • around just past Westminster on Park Avenue.
  • And there's a little park there now,
  • but that was where the trolley turned around.
  • And I loved it.
  • But I found DI--
  • Dignity Integrity and the big question in my mind
  • was whether I could integrate my sexuality and spirituality.
  • Well, I rode my bicycle.
  • I love music, And the Philharmonic
  • was playing at the Highland Bowl.
  • So I went to Highland Bowl.
  • And people were having picnics, and it was just beautiful.
  • What a great city.
  • So there were people from the Rochester Oratorial
  • Society passing out flyers--
  • you know, half sheets--
  • inviting people to come and join the Oratorial Society.
  • So I had sung in college at the Georgia Tech Glee Club
  • and all that.
  • I'd been very active in music stuff.
  • And so I said, well, I should join the Oratorial Society--
  • I didn't know a soul moving to Rochester.
  • Well, on the flip side of the invitation
  • was a little bio of the director,
  • Ted Hollenbach, who I've since learned was gay.
  • And had been kicked out of the Eastman School
  • because he was openly gay.
  • And there were a lot of closeted professors in faculty
  • at the Eastman School at the time.
  • And Ted was the founder of the Bach Festival Chorus,
  • founder of the Corning Symphony, founder of the Oratorial
  • Society and was the organist and choirmaster
  • at Third Presbyterian Church.
  • So I had gone to the downtown church, but in the summer
  • they didn't meet in the sanctuary.
  • If I had gotten into the sanctuary,
  • I probably would be a member of the downtown church today,
  • because it is an absolutely gorgeous sanctuary.
  • But in the summer months, they would
  • meet upstairs in Hallock Lounge, or one of the other places--
  • a very informal service.
  • And but I go to Third Church, and it
  • was traditional services--
  • one of the best choirs in the city.
  • Musically, it's just-- it was a great place.
  • So that's where I ended up.
  • So that's how I ended up at Third Church--
  • big church, about fifteen hundred members at the time--
  • about fourteen hundred now, I think.
  • And it is a big place, but it was a progressive congregation.
  • And I was not out at first.
  • I was trying to understand what was what.
  • But I found out about DI originally
  • through the Gay Alliance, the Empty Closet newspaper.
  • And then, Presbyterians for Gay Concerns, which
  • had been started in 1976--
  • a chapter for Genesee Valley started a national organization
  • working for change in the Presbyterian church.
  • And in 1978, during his mid to late seventies
  • before I moved to Rochester, Virginia Davidson
  • who was an elder of the downtown Presbyterian church
  • was the Vice Moderator of the General
  • Assembly of the national governing
  • body of the denomination.
  • And she was asked to chair a task force on the church's
  • concern with homosexuality, having
  • to do with the ordination of openly gay people
  • as clergy in the Presbyterian Church.
  • So she chaired this task force, and it reported in San Diego
  • in 1978.
  • And Virginia had started out as a Pittsford housewife.
  • And her husband Davey was, I think
  • it was HR Senior Executive at Kodak.
  • And their children all grew up, and one
  • of Virginia's best friends--
  • who's now a retired Presbyterian clergyman--
  • came out to her.
  • And described how difficult it was for him to be himself,
  • and to serve the church.
  • And Virginia adored this man, and really wrestled.
  • And then, saw the injustice in the church.
  • And so she and Davey then moved to Gibb Street,
  • just down from Eastman Theater near University.
  • Very much close to the corner of Gibbs and University--
  • moved from a suburban to urban setting.
  • And Virginia became a staunch friend and ally
  • of the gay community.
  • So in 1978 at the San Diego assembly,
  • her task force was giving their report.
  • And the deck was stacked with anti-gay people.
  • The commissioners from presbyteries
  • across the country--
  • it was a concerted effort to kill that report.
  • And so the recommendations after four years of study,
  • and sounding, and having testimony--
  • from people all around the country,
  • the recommendation was that sexuality is a gift.
  • And that one's sexuality should not be a barrier to ordination,
  • but that people's gifts should be determined
  • on an individual basis--
  • case-by-case basis.
  • That recommendation was rejected.
  • And instead was, being gay is not God's wish for humanity--
  • completely turned it upside down.
  • However, the silver lining in it--
  • if one could even describe anything as a silver lining
  • with such a devastating response--
  • was the expressed commitment by the church for lesbian
  • and gay civil rights.
  • So the Presbyterian church has had a long history.
  • Even the stated clerk of the General Assembly,
  • when Native Americans, when they had the Trail of Tears,
  • the stated clerk of the General Assembly
  • walked with Native Americans when
  • they were moved forcibly from the eastern seaboard
  • and had to walk west.
  • So he walked with them.
  • So there has been this whole war, if you will,
  • going on with social justice in the church, and in society,
  • versus the fundamentalist kind of mindset
  • that says, well, no, we shouldn't
  • be interfering with what's going on in the world.
  • We should be concerned only with people's spiritual souls,
  • and so forth.
  • So after that assembly, there were several commissioners
  • from Genesee Valley--
  • the Genesee Valley presbytery is parts of five counties
  • around Rochester.
  • So it does not include Geneva or Corning,
  • but it goes south to Letchworth.
  • And then, almost to Buffalo, but not quite.
  • So some of those commissioners were
  • very upset at this kind of pulling
  • the rug out from under this committee, which
  • had worked really hard in being faithful
  • to the church's request to say how can we
  • move forward on this.
  • And it was just an attempt to shut down progressive voices
  • in the church.
  • So people came back.
  • And most of them-- they were all straight.
  • There were men and women, and they started the Presbyterians
  • for Gay Concerns chapter with some gay people--
  • like Keith Hershberger and Lee Fisher, who
  • no longer live in Rochester.
  • But they had a holy union service
  • at 12 Corners Presbyterian Church in the mid-seventies,
  • that a lot of people weren't aware happened.
  • And then soon after, there were several union services
  • at Calvary Saint Andrews Church.
  • So there were a number of--
  • what was then, initially, Presbyterians for Gay Concerns
  • which started in 1974.
  • Rochester became-- I think partly with Virginia
  • Davidson's--
  • people were so proud that she led the church in the study.
  • And there had been a study in 1970, that JC Wynn, who
  • was on the faculty at Colgate--
  • Rochester Crozer Divinity School here in Rochester--
  • that he was part of that national study.
  • And Dr. Stewart--
  • Jim Stewart, whose grandfather was one of the physicians
  • with George Eastman that went on safaris with him
  • in Africa in his early days.
  • Jim Stewart who was a member of Third Church--
  • really learned a lot by talking with JC
  • Wynn, who was on this initial task force.
  • I mean, 1970, so it was right after '69.
  • And the person who brought that whole--
  • there were two people.
  • Bill Silvers-- he was a candidate to be a clergy in New
  • York City Presbytery--
  • was engaged in Stonewall.
  • So he was part of Stonewall, as I understand it.
  • And then, was going to seminary, and wanted
  • to be able to serve openly as a part of the gay liberation.
  • And so we asked the presbytery--
  • you know, New York City Presbytery--
  • there was New York City, and there was one in New Jersey.
  • Anyway, so it was absolutely fascinating.
  • So when he brought, he brought the request
  • to the New York City Presbytery in Palisades,
  • which is in New Jersey.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Now the story that you
  • shared with me over dinner last week was about--
  • the more like community coming into-- oh no,
  • study of homosexuality by Third Presbyterian Church.
  • Was that prior to this?
  • RALPH CARTER: Oh, no.
  • So what happened was--
  • so alright so there are these monthly potlucks
  • in the apartment of Keith and Lee.
  • And then, with Dee Miller--
  • she rented an apartment.
  • They owned the house.
  • And they were, I think, downstairs,
  • and Dee was upstairs.
  • And I think Martha was her partner.
  • And then, they broke up.
  • So we had these monthly potlucks.
  • And Bruce Billman, you may know Bruce--
  • a number of other people.
  • And I found them through an ad they put in the Empty Closet.
  • So I started going.
  • And I was like, twenty--
  • right out of college.
  • So I was twenty-three, twenty-four.
  • And you know, rollerskating to DI for Sunday night.
  • You know, they just came out with outdoor skates,
  • I mean you know the whole thing-- it was a big adventure.
  • So I started going to Third Church, and joined in 1980.
  • But it was a big place.
  • And then, also, in October of '80 was when I met Van.
  • And he was a member.
  • He had moved to Rochester from Buffalo.
  • And he had joined Calvary Saint Andrews because--
  • do you remember JR and Leo?
  • At DI?
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
  • RALPH CARTER: Well, they had their union service
  • at Calvary Saint Andrews, because Walt Symanski who
  • was the liaison to the gay community from the Episcopal
  • diocese--
  • was at Calvary Saint Andrews.
  • And Calvary Saint Andrews was and one
  • of the few in the country--
  • it was a very interesting congregation.
  • It still is-- a very vibrant congregation.
  • But it was combined Episcopal-Presbyterian
  • at the time.
  • Now, it's just Presbyterian.
  • They decided that it was too much to go to two
  • ecclesial meetings a month--
  • one to Presbyterians, and one to the Episcopal diocese meetings.
  • So I think Van was at Calvary Saint Andrews.
  • So just before I moved to Rochester-- that fall.
  • I think it was the spring of '79.
  • It was after the General Assembly.
  • People came back to Rochester in '78.
  • They came back to Rochester.
  • And they were all fired up-- we have got to get--
  • this cannot be.
  • And we had heard--
  • it was like, Bruce Billman, Margaret Staltman,
  • Kava Bleski who's still living--
  • and Lily Jewels.
  • Like, three straight women, and Bruce.
  • They were pretty much the same age--
  • they were older.
  • And these three women were, like, best friends.
  • They decided strategically, we need
  • to go speak with congregations.
  • Because we had heard that there were
  • churches that were starting to call themselves More
  • Light Churches.
  • And it was a phrase taken by this pastor in Scotland--
  • Scotland or England--
  • John Robinson, to parishioners who
  • were moving to the new world, he says, "Embrace the new world,
  • there is yet more light and truth
  • to spring forth from the Bible."
  • So to not abandon the Bible, but to embrace
  • the truths of the Bible, and to make it living.
  • So that was an organizing principle for Presbyterians
  • for Gay Concerns.
  • And so there were congregations that
  • didn't agree with the '78 decision by the church.
  • And they began calling themselves More Light Churches,
  • because they embraced the idea that there is yet
  • more light to be shed.
  • And so there were like--
  • I think it was maybe ten or twelve congregations.
  • They had this merry band.
  • They went through the list of seventy-six congregations--
  • about seventy some-odd.
  • And they said, "OK, which congregations
  • should we go visit?"
  • Presbyterians don't have a bishop,
  • and so they do everything by committee.
  • And that gets back to--
  • I didn't realize this, but back in the battles between England
  • and Scotland and Ireland and if the King or Queen of England
  • didn't like what was being said in the pulpits they would put
  • the bishops in the Tower or you know have their heads--
  • somehow have them killed--
  • have them beheaded.
  • And so the Scots, who were a pretty independent lot,
  • basically said, well, we're not going to have bishops.
  • The gathered body of elders will serve
  • the function of the bishop.
  • And that was how they defied England-- the monarchy.
  • And part of the American Revolution--
  • sometimes it was kind of jokingly
  • called the Presbyterian Rebellion,
  • because there were a lot of Scotch and Irish
  • that came early to get away from the oppression in Great
  • Britain.
  • So, where was I?
  • So Presbyterians, as a result of not
  • having this kind of top-down hierarchy,
  • there is a lot of respect for committee process,
  • and for listening to each other and then making decisions.
  • So they have no problem studying.
  • They really embrace new knowledge,
  • new ways of doing things.
  • And interestingly, there is a real strong--
  • it's a connectional church.
  • It's a credal denomination.
  • In other words, you've got creeds,
  • and this is what we believe.
  • Whereas Baptists, and a number of other denominations do not--
  • very independent.
  • So Presbyterians are independent to an extent,
  • but they believe in the interconnectedness of things.
  • So when one is recognized as having spiritual gifts,
  • then you're ordained in one of three offices--
  • either as a teaching elder, a ruling elder, or deacon.
  • Teaching is like a clergy.
  • Ruling elder is a layperson who is
  • a part of the governance of the congregation,
  • or presbytery, whatever.
  • And then, deacon is called to service.
  • Those ordinations are done locally
  • on behalf of the whole church.
  • So when you move from one place to another,
  • you retain your ordination status.
  • And you have to be received in whatever the governing, you
  • know the presbytery, you're received
  • in a presbytery but your ordination moves with you.
  • So that's this tension that goes on about, well,
  • who's ordaining who.
  • And what are the rules, and how much
  • flexibility is there in discerning gifts
  • for the church?
  • So the local chapter of PGC, which about five years later
  • became PLGC with recognition of the role of lesbians
  • in the church.
  • They made a concerted effort to go
  • speak with the session, which is the governing body of like ten
  • or twelve congregations.
  • Third Presbyterian was one of them.
  • Calvary Saint Andrews was one of them.
  • Downtown Church, John Calvin in Henrietta--
  • which is where Dee Miller used to belong before she moved
  • to Downtown Church--
  • Summerville Church.
  • I don't know who all--
  • Westminster Church.
  • Most of them were more urban--
  • within the city of Rochester--
  • but there were some suburban congregations.
  • I know that very early on, like, Downtown Church,
  • not having any openly gay people as members, but out
  • of respect for Virginia Davidson, declared,
  • we're a More Light church.
  • They were the first congregation in Rochester
  • to become a More Light church.
  • Very soon thereafter, John Calvin did--
  • Calvary Saint Andrews.
  • There were, like, three of them.
  • And then, what happened at Third was,
  • that the presentation came--
  • the presentation was made.
  • And they were kind of horrified at the idea, they didn't know,
  • even though it was a presbytery, the presbytery was I'm sure,
  • was involved with the whole task force somehow.
  • But it was Virginia Davidson chairing it.
  • But the decision of the session was a commitment
  • to study homosexuality, the topic and that
  • was their commitment.
  • Carol Qualedge who was on the staff at Hillside
  • and had her MSW, was a part of the session at the time.
  • And Gene Bay who was very engaged in what
  • was going on education in the city, and a remarkable pastor.
  • Who, when he left their church, went to the Bryn Mawr
  • Church in Philadelphia, which is, like, a five thousand
  • member church--
  • just an amazing congregation.
  • And then came back-- and he was the interim president
  • of the Divinity School for a couple of years--
  • to help them get their finances in order, and development--get,
  • what do you call the investments?
  • Get everything lined up and get sustainable financially.
  • After the year was almost up, and they hadn't done anything
  • Carol Qualedge went to Gene and says,
  • "Gene, are we going to renege on our commitment,
  • our obligation?"
  • And he said, "Oh yeah, we did say we were going to do that."
  • I don't know anything about this.
  • So he flipped it on her.
  • He said, "Well, would you chair a study group?"
  • And she says, "I'll do it on one condition.
  • And that is, that there be a gay person in the task force.
  • Because we can't talk about people if none of us
  • know what it's like to be gay."
  • And he said, "Fine."
  • Meanwhile, while all that was happening behind the scenes,
  • I was part of the PLGC.
  • And Van was saying, well, why don't you
  • move to Calvary Saint Andrews?
  • And I said, well, why don't you move to Third?
  • You know and then I love Calvary Saint Andrews.
  • It's a wonderful little urban parish--
  • feisty.
  • They've got Judy Hayes, the pastor.
  • She's so committed to justice and community.
  • It's one reason why the South Wedge is not gentrified today
  • is because of the commitment of that congregation
  • to racial justice.
  • There should be a way for people of color,
  • and working poor to be able to stay in their homes.
  • So that's why they have the tool-lending library and all
  • of that in the South Wedge.
  • That's all the social justice piece that covers--
  • I've always admired that congregation.
  • So the commitment I made with Van was--
  • I said, "Van, it's not fair for me to give up on Third Church."
  • There's people that I know, they're great people,
  • but they haven't been asked to do anything.
  • So I did not really realize what the commitment that
  • had been made by the session.
  • So there had been a big fund raising nationally,
  • in which Genesee Valley participated.
  • It's called Mission Challenge.
  • And 30 percent, I think, of the funds that were raised
  • would be kept for local ministry, local mission.
  • And they had a committee in the presbytery
  • that would dispense funds.
  • And people could submit proposals for projects.
  • Well, one of the staff of the presbytery, Jim Rice--
  • his widow Lucille is still a member of Third Church--
  • suggested to Keith and Lee.
  • He says, "Well, why don't you guys
  • propose a project of ministry with the gay community,
  • or on behalf of the gay community?"
  • So we thought about it.
  • And we said, well, you know, we've
  • got this disastrous report, which is not
  • good news for gay people.
  • But there's this thing, commitment to civil rights.
  • So we got the chutzpah, and wrote a proposal.
  • We wanted five thousand dollars in the early eighties.
  • Give us five thousand dollars, which
  • is a big chunk of change, for an ecumenical civil rights
  • project for people of faith to coalesce and advocate
  • on behalf of civil rights for lesbian and gay people.
  • And the presbytery approved it.
  • This was like, '81 or '82 time frame--
  • '81, I think it was.
  • And it was called, CREATE Justice for Lesbian and Gay
  • Persons.
  • CREATE was an acronym--
  • Church's Responsibility to Educate and Advocate
  • Toward Equality--
  • and to create justice.
  • And it was really something.
  • We ended up having--
  • between Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse,
  • we had about four hundred people on our mailing list.
  • And this was before email.
  • It was letters.
  • We had the pink triangle.
  • I've got the letterhead for it.
  • We debated-- we printed all this letterhead for it.
  • And we debated-- we even printed some envelopes.
  • And we used the envelopes once.
  • And there was hue and cry, because we were sending out
  • a business envelope with a pink triangle on it--
  • CREATE Justice for Lesbian and Gay Persons.
  • And people returned to sender--
  • refused.
  • We had people--
  • I mean, it was a big, big mistake tactically at the time,
  • that people of faith could not--
  • or sometimes people were closeted and receiving mail,
  • and were horrified.
  • Some people probably were outed.
  • Just because they were receiving a letter regarding
  • a project for civil rights advocacy,
  • people got in trouble.
  • So we had to quickly regroup, and we
  • had all these envelopes we never used,
  • except for that one mailing.
  • And we had this whole debate about being out,
  • not being out-- respecting people's--
  • you know, are we going to be a very small group
  • because it's only going to be people who are out?
  • Or are we going to respect where people are--
  • compromise, have a plain envelope?
  • So that's what we ended up doing.
  • And the brilliant part of the proposal
  • was, that we knew that people didn't want to talk about it.
  • So we had to, like, embed in the proposal.
  • The proposal was that after a year
  • we would report our progress--
  • take docket time on the floor of the presbytery.
  • Five counties-- you've got people
  • from seventy-six congregations at these presbytery meetings.
  • And that we would present the progress
  • that we were making for lesbian and gay civil rights,
  • as a part of our concern for accountability,
  • that we were using the funds appropriately and all that.
  • Well, of course, they had to buy it.
  • They had to agree, even though people were uncomfortable
  • talking about this.
  • So then, we have our potluck.
  • And it's like, OK, so who's going to present,
  • and what should we present?
  • And someone said, "Well, you know,
  • the big issue is that people don't know--this is not--people
  • are talking about this without understanding the personal
  • story, and what it's like to be gay and in the church.
  • And probably the first thing we ought to do,
  • is just share story.
  • Because you only have half an hour anyway, if that,
  • so that's what we ought to do.
  • So everybody then asked me if I would share my story.
  • I was not out at work.
  • I was not out in the congregation.
  • Would you share your story?
  • EVELYN BAILEY: But you're on this committee.
  • RALPH CARTER: I'm on this committee.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Identified as a gay person?
  • RALPH CARTER: I'm on this CREATE Justice task force.
  • Yeah, so I was gradually, I was out out, but not out.
  • But I hadn't told my story before a whole big group
  • of strangers-- people I didn't know.
  • So I though about it. and I says, well, I need to do this.
  • And I said, well, where's the presbytery?
  • The presbytery meeting was going to be
  • in the Village of Pittsford at First Presbyterian
  • Church, Pittsford.
  • Big congregation, you know--
  • can be kind of intimidating.
  • And I said, you know, I can't do this,
  • speak on the floor of the presbytery meeting
  • with not having come out to the clergy--
  • my own pastors at Third Church.
  • And there were four or five at the time--
  • four of them.
  • So I set up individual meetings with all of them.
  • And they were all very supportive.
  • I mean, very supportive of me as an individual.
  • Even though Gene Bay, Senior Pastor, said,
  • "I support you as a person.
  • I see you as a person of integrity.
  • I must admit, I don't know anything about the topic,
  • or what it's like to be gay.
  • But you know, I respect what you're doing."
  • And that was true with all of them.
  • So then, I got the last one done like the week
  • before the presbytery meeting.
  • And then I wrote out what I was going to say.
  • And basically, I talked about my growing up,
  • and what it was like growing up in a very conservative farm
  • setting, rural community in Florida.
  • And that, having been rejected by my family when I met Van.
  • So that's how that all came about.
  • Third Church then had meanwhile--
  • once I came out to Gene--
  • this was, like, '81-'82 time frame.
  • And I was working on this CREATE Justice Project.
  • Then, I was asked to serve on this committee that
  • was studying human sexuality.
  • They had broadened it, which was pretty smart,
  • because the church was struggling
  • with teenage sexuality--
  • abortion, contraception.
  • There were emerging issues with seniors--
  • you lose your spouse of thirty, forty years,
  • and you fall in love again?
  • What next?
  • Do you get married?
  • Do you not get married?
  • What about the children and grandchildren--
  • all these family dynamics.
  • So there was a lot going on--
  • a lot to consider.
  • So we said, put homosexuality in the context of human sexuality,
  • and it will be easier for the church.
  • And we need to wrestle with these,
  • and they're interconnected.
  • So that's what they did.
  • I was not out during most of that study group.
  • And what we agreed to do--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: How did you manage that, Ralph Carter?
  • RALPH CARTER: I don't know.
  • I think I was--how do I say this--
  • in delusion, because I think people
  • were figuring things out.
  • But I didn't have the language.
  • I didn't know-- especially because I was so
  • hurt by the rejection of my parents, especially my mother.
  • We were, like, very, very close.
  • And she told me I was going to burn in hell,
  • and it was my fault that I was going to burn.
  • I was going to burn in hell.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: How old were you?
  • RALPH CARTER: I was in my mid-twenties.
  • And my dad, his first question of me was,
  • "Do you still shave?"
  • I did not understand.
  • I had to really think about that, what he was asking.
  • And it was, I think, he had the idea gay men are not real men.
  • So therefore, I wouldn't need to shave anymore, because I
  • somehow was more like a woman.
  • I don't what he thought, but he actually asked the question,
  • do you shave anymore?
  • Do you have to shave?
  • Isn't that weird?
  • But that's just because it's not talked about it.
  • It wasn't talked about.
  • And so they just didn't have the information.
  • But it was hard for my parents, and it was hard to be out.
  • The only way I could go home was to leave Van here,
  • and to not talk about it.
  • And after a while, I said, this is not right.
  • I'm not welcome because Van's part of my life.
  • So if he's not welcome, I'm not coming.
  • And my mother died without ever having visited Rochester.
  • And she would have loved it.
  • Because she loved history number one.
  • She loved dolls.
  • If she'd ever gone into the Strong Museum,
  • she would have wet her pants, because she just
  • loved all the stuff.
  • She loved all of this.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: What pain though.
  • RALPH CARTER: Oh, it was terrible.
  • It was hard for me to verbalize, so I actually
  • did some counseling for a couple of years,
  • to reframe what was going on, and understand it.
  • I'm fine.
  • I've just been hurt.
  • And I need to learn how to tell my story.
  • So I started on this task force--Third Church--
  • this human sexuality committee.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: In the closet.
  • RALPH CARTER: Well, the committee was in the closet.
  • The congregation didn't even know what was happening.
  • The church was petrified that this was going to blow up,
  • and nobody needs to know that we're studying this thing.
  • Well, so we drew straws on who was going to talk.
  • We divided up the different topics.
  • And we had, as it turned out, enough
  • for one topic for each person.
  • And I got the one on homosexuality.
  • It's like, how is that possible?
  • And Jim Stewart was one of the persons on the committee.
  • I forgot which one he got.
  • I think he got abortion.
  • And I was still chicken.
  • I was afraid to lead the discussion.
  • I was afraid, at that time, to come out.
  • It was so weird.
  • I think it was all in the middle of the stuff with my parents,
  • and it was unresolved.
  • And I felt such rejection and such shame from it.
  • So I invited--
  • Van, what was the name of that guy?
  • He had been a Presbyterian minister.
  • And he moved to Rochester, and he worked at Kodak.
  • And then he left Kodak, and he was teaching?
  • Chuck Collins.
  • So Chuck came, because Chuck was much more articulate than I.
  • And I figured, OK, he leads it, then I can speak up.
  • And I eventually came out to the committee,
  • but it was after Chuck helped to frame the arguments.
  • At the time, Dr. Jim Stewart said, "Chuck,
  • I don't understand how men fall in love with men,
  • because the body parts don't fit."
  • And it was all physical.
  • He was trying to picture how people have sex, or have
  • how they're intimate with each other.
  • And that was his big hang up.
  • And Chuck said, rather graphically,
  • "Jim, when John falls in love with Bill,
  • it's John falling in love with Bill.
  • It's not John's penis falling in love with Bill's penis.
  • It's the person falling in love with another person.
  • The body parts figure themselves out, you know?
  • But it's the person, it's your soul
  • it's your spirit that sees something
  • that's attractive about the other person.
  • It's how they think.
  • It's how they talk.
  • It's their aspirations.
  • It's who they are as a human being that attracts one
  • to another.
  • And that's the spark, and everything else
  • gets figured out.
  • And there's a small percentage of people that are this way,
  • and it's probably really, really good for society.
  • Because if everybody's parents, then you've got overpopulation.
  • And who can you call on to help care for the kids?
  • So at the time, there wasn't that much,
  • you know, people adopting, having kids.
  • You didn't have in vitro fertilization at that point,
  • I don't think.
  • It was later on you had the gayby baby boom going on.
  • And so I says--
  • Chuck was giving his analysis.
  • I get to be the doting uncle.
  • I get to have a great time.
  • I can be a kid, because I am a kid.
  • I'm like an older kid.
  • And I can play, and I can help kids
  • make the bridge to adulthood.
  • And that's the role that I play, and I love it.
  • I mean, I love kids.
  • I'd love to have my own kids, but I can't.
  • At the time, you didn't know how to do that.
  • So that really that was the logjam
  • that broke for Dr. Stewart.
  • And then, I eventually came out with that group.
  • And one of the people.
  • One of the staff persons was Pat Youngdahl.
  • That was her first pastorate was at Third Church.
  • And she fell in love with Michael McKenzie.
  • The congregation didn't know it.
  • And then, she moves to Michigan, and then she
  • moves to Tucson, Arizona-- which is where
  • Michael's mom lives I believe.
  • Tucson or Phoenix-- I think it's Tucson.
  • And then, of course, she came back to Rochester
  • to be the Pastor of Downtown Church.
  • Amazing.
  • But Pat was brilliant.
  • She really helped us.
  • So we had this cloister, one-year-long study
  • of human sexuality at Third Church, after which we,
  • well we got to report to session.
  • We don't want to talk about it, but we've got to do it.
  • And we were so excited, because we learned so much.
  • And it is not so much the result--
  • not that you have answers, but you have knowledge.
  • You have more knowledge, and you have more understanding of what
  • people are going through.
  • So you can help people no matter where
  • they are on the continuum, because you have knowledge.
  • And so our presentation to session was,
  • the congregation needs to know this.
  • We have learned so much, and we are so excited about it,
  • we ought to have a theologian in residence
  • to talk about human sexuality.
  • And they bought it.
  • And so we brought Peggy Way from Vanderbilt Seminary, who
  • was someone with disabilities.
  • And she comes in--
  • she was actually a professor of Pat Youngdahl
  • when she went to Vanderbilt Seminary.
  • She's wonderful process-wise, in helping people
  • to talk in a safe way.
  • So Peggy Way did this three-day long weekend--
  • Friday night, Saturday, Sunday morning.
  • And people were invited to name human sexuality topics that
  • were of interest to them.
  • What drew them to this conversation?
  • And so already, even though people weren't out,
  • a number of people talked about homosexuality as something
  • they wanted to know more about.
  • Some people talked about the experience of divorce,
  • and the lack of support from the congregation
  • when they got a divorce.
  • So we had this wonderful weekend,
  • and Peggy planted the seed.
  • The seed was, no matter what the topic each of us
  • are conserving on some things and have a liberating viewpoint
  • on another and we go back and forth depending on the topic
  • and depending on our experience of where we are at the moment.
  • So she says, I recommended that your first rule of thumb
  • be, above all, to care for each other as a community.
  • And to commit to listen to each other,
  • and to not use words like conserving-liberating
  • versus conservative-liberal.
  • Because if you're really truthful,
  • you'll find yourself in both camps, or somewhere in between
  • depending on the topic.
  • And depending on what's going on in your life at the time,
  • and your knowledge of the topic.
  • So that was very, very helpful.
  • Then, the weekend after she came,
  • we had an adult education forum on what next.
  • Because I said, "We can't let this thing die."
  • So then out of that came two topics--
  • two ad hoc committees.
  • One, on supporting members of the congregation who
  • have experienced, or are experiencing divorce.
  • And the second one, on homosexuality.
  • From that began a six-year dialogue
  • on what it means to be a church that welcomes
  • gay people in the church.
  • And we had our own ad hoc committee.
  • And the first thing we wanted to do
  • was to start a support group that met on a regular basis.
  • So that while we're having this long discussion,
  • that there was a place where people could come
  • and be themselves in safety.
  • And I think we kind of stumbled on it.
  • But I know that I feel tremendous support
  • by having this safe group called Presbyterians
  • for Gay Concerns that's not in a congregation,
  • but is in somebody's home.
  • But if we're talking about what it means to be a congregation--
  • shall we or shall we not welcome people--
  • that needs to be a place where members can feel safe
  • within the congregation.
  • So we took this proposal to session.
  • And before we took it to session I was having, like, what are we
  • going to do if they say no.
  • Pat Youngdahl says, "Never let people take your power.
  • There's a high road, and there's a low road.
  • Both get you to your destination,
  • but are different paths.
  • Try the high road.
  • If the high road doesn't work, do the low road.
  • Either way, you're going to have your support group.
  • The question is, whether or not you
  • can publicize it in the church newsletter, in the community.
  • How visible is the group going to be?
  • You're still going to have your group.
  • Never let them take your power."
  • That was a big learn for me, and Pat was wise to say that.
  • Because that really helped me a lot personally.
  • I was always afraid of the rejection--
  • being rejected.
  • So we went, and then they first debated.
  • Believe it or not, what they hated--
  • there was a big hue and cry on the word support.
  • Well, we don't know that we support this.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Support?
  • RALPH CARTER: Support gay and lesbian people--
  • that was the argument.
  • So the compromise was, that we will have a support group,
  • but it's going to be for members of the congregation.
  • Because they were, believe it or not--
  • this is where the homophobia comes in.
  • Leadership of the congregation were afraid
  • that we might publicize this in the community,
  • and we would be inundated with gay people in the congregation.
  • And we can't have those people.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Oh, of course not.
  • RALPH CARTER: Of course you can also say,
  • don't flatter yourself.
  • You think that if you say that, all of a sudden you're
  • going to be inundated with people-- oh, let me
  • in that place.
  • Oh, I want to go to that church.
  • Let me in!
  • What an arrogance.
  • But also, it's kind of weird that it
  • had that kind of response.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Well, yeah.
  • Yeah, it's another form of denial.
  • And another form of not actually saying no, but not
  • actually saying yes.
  • RALPH CARTER: Yeah.
  • So that was the commitment.
  • So what we ended up doing with Third,
  • as we did with the presbytery project in formulating it--
  • we said, OK, anything you do at Third Church is--
  • Third Church is a very programmatic-oriented,
  • high caliber--
  • it's a pretty sophisticated kind of place.
  • It's not just a, oh, you get an idea
  • and you're just going to just do it.
  • No, you've got to have, what is the project plan?
  • How is this going to be run?
  • You know, you've got twenty questions
  • asked around anything.
  • So we actually had a document.
  • And it described, we're going to have male and female.
  • We're going to have professional facilitators--
  • people who are trained MSW.
  • Carol Qualage was going to be one of them.
  • And we have at least one of the two who was going
  • to be professionally trained.
  • It's going to be confidential.
  • We were going to make it a safe environment, where
  • people could speak, but they're not required to speak.
  • They can listen.
  • They didn't have to share if they didn't want to share.
  • It was welcome to all people who could
  • respect confidentialities.
  • And we agreed that it was going to be for members
  • of the congregation and that we would not
  • publicize in the Empty Closet, in the city newspaper,
  • or the Democratic and Chronicle.
  • But we would give a status report to session.
  • Session had to hear how we're doing.
  • Because we knew that session wanted to be sure
  • things are working OK.
  • But we knew they needed to understand people's stories,
  • and find out what's going on.
  • And you've got ten to fifteen people coming to these meetings
  • twice a month, and that's the kind of support
  • that they're getting.
  • So it was a brilliant design.
  • And they agreed to that compromise of just
  • within the congregation.
  • That group is still meeting--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Isn't that great?
  • RALPH CARTER: --since the eighties.
  • And it's called Born This Way now.
  • And they've continued to meet twice a month,
  • through the mid-eighties to now.
  • So it's been a quite a long time.
  • There have been nuns who have come,
  • who've found out about the group.
  • There have been African Americans who've come.
  • A lot of different-- there was a Mormon who came to the group
  • for support.
  • Very interesting-- a wide variety of people,
  • not just members of the congregation.
  • Later, with all the education over the six-year period--
  • because it went from, like, '81 to '87.
  • That's when the church finally became a More Light church.
  • The ad hoc committee organized educational forums
  • on various topics, on homosexuality.
  • And then it becomes time, well, shall we--
  • we've studied it for six years.
  • So the session needs to vote, whether or not
  • it's going to do this.
  • And so one of the last sessions, that whole question arose.
  • OK, we've had this--
  • we would do, like, three-week series.
  • Bring in people from the divinity school,
  • bring in people from all over, hear people's stories
  • and all that.
  • And so there was that question, should we
  • become a More Light church?
  • And then what happened was, there
  • was this whole silence among older members.
  • Let's see, what's her name?
  • Hey Van-- who was the pastor of Third Church before Gene Bay?
  • He'd been there for a long, long, long, long time?
  • And his son became the mayor of Indianapolis.
  • VAN: (unintelligible) two brothers.
  • RALPH CARTER: Yeah, two brothers.
  • And the last name was similar to the one
  • that visited your mom, a good friend of your moms.
  • Oh gosh, what was his name?
  • Well, his widow-- she was maybe in her eighties at the time--
  • who didn't say much, because she was very highly regarded.
  • And she was a humble woman.
  • She was pretty quiet, sort of like the way
  • a lot of leaders in Rochester are.
  • They're not garish, boisterous, throwing their weight around.
  • They are more kind of quiet, which is something
  • I really like about Rochester.
  • And she stood up.
  • The place is like, wow, this woman never ever
  • gets up to speak.
  • And then she says, "We've been talking about this for years
  • now, and with a lot of angst--
  • about should we, or should we not."
  • And she pointed to a picture of Lillian Alexander--
  • it was on the wall in the hall.
  • And says, "You remember Lillian Alexander in the 1950s?
  • She was an elder in this church.
  • And she thought it was completely
  • unfair for our church to have all of these gifted women that
  • are so deeply spiritual, and have wonderful gifts to share
  • with the church, and they're not allowed to be pastors--
  • not allowed to be a clergy.
  • That's wrong.
  • And this church, this congregation--
  • Third Presbyterian Church-- the session of this church
  • approved the overture that went to the presbytery of Genesee
  • Valley, that then went to the national church
  • to authorize the ordination of women
  • as clergy in the denomination.
  • And it failed the first time around.
  • And then you brought it back two years later, and it passed.
  • Now, when we look back on it fifty years later,
  • it's a wonderful thing.
  • But if you're living at the time, we were petrified--
  • what are we doing?
  • But we knew it was the right thing to do.
  • And this issue is the issue of this day--
  • shall we accept the remarkable gifts of gay and lesbian people
  • who are called to serve the church in this way?
  • Or shall we deny them?
  • I think we have our answer.
  • We've done it before, we should do it again.
  • And we're a church that's called to lead, not follow."
  • And she sat down.
  • And it was like, well, it's a done deal now.
  • (Laughs)
  • How could you say no?
  • Because you had this revered octogenarian,
  • whose husband was, I'd say, somewhat conservative--
  • definitely like a tall steeple pastor kind of a guy.
  • You know, a lot of power, but a good heart.
  • And his wife said, "This is the issue of our day,
  • we need to address it."
  • I mean, ultimately, the big issue in my mind
  • is, who are we to thwart who God calls?
  • God's the one who does the calling.
  • God is the one who gifts people with gifts.
  • The question is, are we going to get in God's way,
  • or are we going to accept what God has in mind?
  • And so, how arrogant to deliberately deny gifts
  • that the community has been given?
  • So it passed.
  • And so here's a congregation of fifteen hundred--
  • I think it's the second largest Presbyterian
  • Church in New York state.
  • It changed the map regarding the debate, ultimately.
  • Because then there were other congregations, like Oak Park--
  • First United Church of Oak Park in Illinois.
  • Big church, very wealthy congregation--
  • they became a More Light church.
  • So there were a number of congregations
  • around the country--
  • First Presbyterian church of Palo Alto,
  • California became a More Light church--
  • a number of congregations that became More Light churches.
  • And there are now, like, about two hundred of them.
  • But Third Church was--
  • I think it was the twentieth or twenty-third
  • to become a More Light church.
  • People were shocked in the presbytery.
  • How could this congregation--
  • And right after that More Light statement,
  • then Gene Bay is called.
  • Bill Young retires.
  • Pat Youngdahl moves.
  • Who was the redhead, Van?
  • VAN: (unintelligible).
  • RALPH CARTER: Pamela Harvey.
  • VAN: Pamela Harvey.
  • RALPH CARTER: she moves to New Rochelle.
  • So we had a complete turnover of the staff within six months
  • or so of the statement.
  • There were five congregations that challenged us.
  • And I think it actually turned out
  • to be the best thing that ever happened to that church,
  • was to have been challenged.
  • Because they weren't used to being challenged.
  • They were used to running the show.
  • But you've got Webster, Parkminster, which is very,
  • Brighton--
  • just down the street, just down East Avenue, a mile
  • and a half or whatever from Third Church
  • was Brighton Church.
  • Brighton Church challenged.
  • And then also, Scottsville Church.
  • There were five congregations that
  • brought a court case against Third Church
  • for exercising its conscience.
  • When there's the mantra in the Presbyterian church,
  • God alone is Lord of the conscience.
  • Which is this independent streak--
  • the Scottish independent mindset--
  • you don't tell us what to do kind of a thing.
  • So people in Third Church were--
  • how dare they?
  • How dare these people challenge it?
  • So people who were on the fence, who
  • didn't like the idea of our becoming a More Light church,
  • rallied.
  • This a very interesting thing.
  • When you're under attack from outside, you corral the wagons.
  • And so it became, well, this is important.
  • We've done it-- the session.
  • We talked about it for six years.
  • This is not a secret.
  • There's been no wool pulled over anybody's eyes.
  • It was thoroughly vetted, thoroughly talked about.
  • If people didn't talk about it, it
  • was their own decision not to talk about it,
  • because it was-- certainly a lot of opportunities.
  • And we just happened to have Jim Moore, and a couple of people.
  • Jim was the President of the New York State Bar Association.
  • You know, Harter Secrest and Emery
  • and a number of different law firms in town,
  • well represented in the congregation.
  • So that was what started Jim Moore's, actually.
  • We ended up going all the way to the national.
  • It went to presbytery, it went to senate,
  • then went to national.
  • And then, Jim Moore eventually became
  • one of the legal council supporting
  • Janie Spahr in her court case--
  • several of hers.
  • As was Peter Odlefson, another lawyer.
  • He was a member of Third Church, and then
  • became a member of Downtown.
  • And what was also very interesting,
  • was that when Brighton Church joined this group of five
  • congregations challenging Third, there were members
  • of their--how many members would you say, from Brighton Church?
  • Van then decided to join me at Third Church.
  • Because we had said, let's give Third Church a chance.
  • If they don't become a More Light church,
  • then I'll transfer my membership to Calvary Saint Andrews.
  • (Van speaking in background) So Van moved his membership.
  • But in your membership class, there
  • were several people from the Brighton Church
  • who transferred their membership to Third Church.
  • Because they thought it was completely
  • inappropriate for one congregation
  • to meddle in the affairs of another congregation.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: How did the lawsuits turn out?
  • Or were they withdrawn?
  • RALPH CARTER: God alone is Lord of the conscience.
  • That won the day.
  • So there was no one ordained at that point.
  • You were just making a statement.
  • So that's all they had to go on.
  • Can you, or can you not say something
  • that is on its surface contrary to what
  • the national church has said?
  • And we said, yes, you can, because God alone
  • is Lord of the conscience.
  • And we always have to be open to the Holy Spirit.
  • So you have to tread on that ground very carefully.
  • So the Presbyterians take that--
  • are pretty serious about that.
  • Always leaving the door-- there's
  • always a little bit of doubt that you know
  • or I know the mind of Christ, or mind of God.
  • Because God is bigger than all of us.
  • We've got a little prism that we understand the world,
  • understand the universe.
  • But we're just a small piece of this whole big thing.
  • And so we can't pretend-- we can't
  • be so arrogant to know the mind of God.
  • We may think we know part of it, but we don't know all of it.
  • It's like welcoming the stranger in your midst.
  • We're called to welcome the stranger.
  • So then the whole thing for me was, I'm really excited.
  • I was asked to be on the nominating
  • committee for the congregation.
  • And then, I was asked to serve in a lot
  • of different non-ordained capacities.
  • And that went on for about five years.
  • And you know, meanwhile I was being promoted at work.
  • And you know, I got a lot of energy.
  • I got a lot of things to share.
  • People saying-- they were like, "Oh, can we, or should we,
  • I don't know."
  • Then, they eventually asked, would you serve as an elder?
  • And so I said, yes.
  • At the time I was on the board of trustees.
  • And there was a group that was supporting me.
  • And they were really concerned that my nomination
  • might be challenged at the congregation meeting hearing
  • the report from the nominating committee, that my nomination
  • might be challenged.
  • And so they were prepared to get up and speak on my behalf.
  • So they had the congregation meeting,
  • and there was no challenge.
  • But people didn't know-- well, where's Ralph,
  • because I wasn't at the meeting.
  • I had intended to be at the meeting.
  • But it was my morning to--
  • at the end of the service was when they had the congregation
  • meeting.
  • And I was upstairs counting the collection
  • with another trustee.
  • Because everybody was petrified, something happened to Ralph.
  • Where's Ralph?
  • Because they were asking him to stand up,
  • and I was upstairs doing my trustee duties.
  • And so I was not the first gay person to serve on session,
  • but I was the first openly gay person.
  • And it wasn't challenged.
  • The congregation wasn't challenged for having done it.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Are you still an elder?
  • RALPH CARTER: Yeah, once you're ordained,
  • you're always ordained.
  • But you only serve, on the session, three year terms,
  • up to six--
  • maybe two terms of three years each.
  • What is interesting with that congregation,
  • and there are a number of them like that
  • where when they ordain people as elders or deacons,
  • the congregation ordains for ruling elders and deacons.
  • At the presbytery level is where clergy, teaching elders
  • are ordained.
  • So when people are being ordained for service
  • within the congregation, they have what
  • they call a laying on of hands.
  • It's a very special time.
  • And they invite everybody in the congregation
  • who is ordained to get up.
  • And what is a testament to that congregation
  • is that probably about half of the congregation
  • gets up and lays hands on the person in front of them.
  • And then ultimately, the people who are being ordained.
  • It's a very moving experience.
  • It's a testimony to the notion of shared leadership.
  • And you're not recycling the same people all the time.
  • But you're recognizing gifts, and you want everyone's voice
  • to be heard, ultimately, in the life of the congregation.
  • So it's pretty interesting.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: So, Ralph, you are no longer an elder?
  • RALPH CARTER: I am an elder, not in session.
  • You're always an elder.
  • I've also been a deacon, and I've been a trustee.
  • And I've been on almost every committee, at one
  • time or another, in the church.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: What is there left?
  • What is there left for you to become in this church?
  • RALPH CARTER: I mean, I'm in my fifties now.
  • And you know, I'm getting to be one of the older
  • members of the congregation.
  • VAN: (unintelligible) she was getting married to Emily
  • and there was a big applause and everything.
  • You see the church getting more and more accepting.
  • RALPH CARTER: So the big topic right
  • now, is not only marriage in the Presbyterian Church.
  • The congregation is completely for it,
  • because they have gay members.
  • They have lesbian members.
  • And they have transgender members.
  • We've done a lot of education about gender identity
  • over the years.
  • And I'm so proud that people are so
  • comfortable talking about it.
  • They've actually had questions and answers
  • about the particulars of what happens when one transitions
  • one's gender in terms of the physical, hormonal,
  • what all happens.
  • And right in Sunday school.
  • It's an amazing thing.
  • What a great thing, that there can
  • be a space where people can actually be comfortable enough
  • to talk openly about what does this all mean, and ask.
  • So there's that.
  • We've had a number of educational things
  • about the transgender experience.
  • And what is it like, and why it's
  • important to be able to live on the outside what
  • you feel on the inside.
  • And also, about providing opportunities
  • for youth and children-- age-appropriate
  • education for children.
  • We've had that as well--
  • and for parents, ongoing.
  • Right now, we have a More Light committee,
  • that's a committee of session.
  • So someone who is going to the governing body meetings
  • every month leads the committee.
  • And each committee in the church has its role to play.
  • We hold them accountable.
  • What are you doing to implement our commitment
  • to being a welcoming and inclusive congregation?
  • So the membership committee--
  • what are you doing?
  • Outreach-- we do advertising.
  • We suggested that they advertise in the Empty Closet.
  • And so they do.
  • And then for the youth committee--
  • what are you doing to support?
  • Helping kids to be a part of the solution,
  • and not be part of the problem on bullying in schools.
  • So those kinds of things.
  • And we now have one--
  • a high-schooler, a kid who's come out.
  • He's a youth elder. (Van speaking in background)
  • A smart kid, and he's come out, and he's joined our committee.
  • So it's education to do.
  • And you always have to go back and do the 101.
  • Every three years, we have a retreat
  • for the governing body--
  • all the deacons who are doing a lot of pastoral care.
  • There are a number of couples with children.
  • They know enough about what it means
  • to be gay or lesbian person.
  • And that they have the language, so it's
  • not a big mystery to them.
  • And that they know who they can talk to get answers
  • to questions that they have.
  • So deacons and trustees--
  • so the use of the building--
  • community groups and so forth.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Wow, that's a lot.
  • RALPH CARTER: But you know, I think
  • underlying it was trusting that with enough information--
  • and then, relationship building--
  • that people will ultimately do the right thing,
  • or work in that direction.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yes, trust is more than significant.
  • It's the underpinnings of all community relationships.
  • And what the community can do, and what it cannot do,
  • because of the trust within it.
  • I don't think churches are open unless their congregations
  • individually are open.
  • You cannot be welcoming unless you have men and women involved
  • who not only welcome the diversity, and are inclusive,
  • but have also welcomed themselves into that
  • experience.
  • Because unless you own who you are,
  • and are comfortable with who you are,
  • you cannot be comfortable with someone else.
  • That gets communicated.
  • Unspoken, unsaid, but it gets communicated.
  • I know if I'm sitting next to, or opposite someone who
  • is not comfortable with me.
  • And when I sense that, not only does my radar go up,
  • but my tone changes.
  • And I adapt to that uncomfortableness.
  • Not denial of myself, but in the effort
  • to make the other comfortable.
  • Then, you can talk.
  • Then, you can have a dialogue that's honest.
  • Then, you can say what really is in your heart,
  • and what really is in your mind--
  • without fear of rejection, without fear of being
  • dismissed and disrespected.
  • Without that, you can't you can't come together as people.
  • That's what's wrong, in terms of relationships
  • with young people.
  • The differences that they perceive
  • exonerate any sense of trust or connectedness
  • that they might have with any of their peers that are different.
  • I get to know you, the differences disappear.
  • I don't get to know you, guess what?
  • You've got pink ears, and yellow eyes, and a purple tail.
  • And I don't like that.
  • And therefore, I don't like you.
  • RALPH CARTER: Right.
  • Yeah.
  • If you're not comfortable in your own skin,
  • people pick up on that.
  • And you know, there's, like, a distance that's there.
  • And they may or may not know how or be
  • willing to create a bridge.
  • But if you're comfortable in your own skin--
  • so part of the going out and speaking--
  • then I got into going out on speaking engagements.
  • So we'd have the whole roadshow, where we had--
  • I think it was three people or four people.
  • We always had at least three people.
  • And we had different roles.
  • And we went-- (Recording ends)