Audio Interview, Ralph Carter, April 1, 2012

EVELYN BAILEY: Ralph, when did you come to Rochester?

RALPH CARTER: Right out of college.

EVELYN BAILEY: Do you want to share with me the year?

RALPH CARTER: It was 1979--

summer of '79.

And I started work at Xerox July 2nd, 1979.

EVELYN BAILEY: When did you get involved

with Third Pres, and the Pride In The Pulpit kind of work?

RALPH CARTER: Well, I was looking for a church home.

And I'd always been--

I grew up Presbyterian in Florida, went to Georgia Tech.

Stayed at the Presbyterian campus building,

until I joined a fraternity my sophomore year

and moved into the fraternity house.

And then I was coming out in college.

And so the question in my mind was,

can I integrate my sexuality and my spirituality?

So I moved to Rochester, and for about the first six months

I was living in Webster.

But I was always traveling into town.

So I said, I got to move into the city.

So I broke my lease.

(Laughs) And moved downtown with Mark Brzezinski, who

was moving from Jamestown, I guess it was at the same time.

And we met at DI--

I very quickly found DI.

So Mark and I got an apartment together,

because he was between jobs at the time--

when he first moved to Rochester,

leaving his marriage.

And so we became roommates.

And we were at 500 Park Avenue.

What a great address.

And they were ripping up the railroad ties--

you remember, from the trolley?

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

RALPH CARTER: Trolley tracks, '79-'80--

right around that time frame.

And our apartment was the corner Westminster and Park Avenue,

and it was right near the turnaround park

right there where the trolley turned

around just past Westminster on Park Avenue.

And there's a little park there now,

but that was where the trolley turned around.

And I loved it.

But I found DI--

Dignity Integrity and the big question in my mind

was whether I could integrate my sexuality and spirituality.

Well, I rode my bicycle.

I love music, And the Philharmonic

was playing at the Highland Bowl.

So I went to Highland Bowl.

And people were having picnics, and it was just beautiful.

What a great city.

So there were people from the Rochester Oratorial

Society passing out flyers--

you know, half sheets--

inviting people to come and join the Oratorial Society.

So I had sung in college at the Georgia Tech Glee Club

and all that.

I'd been very active in music stuff.

And so I said, well, I should join the Oratorial Society--

I didn't know a soul moving to Rochester.

Well, on the flip side of the invitation

was a little bio of the director,

Ted Hollenbach, who I've since learned was gay.

And had been kicked out of the Eastman School

because he was openly gay.

And there were a lot of closeted professors in faculty

at the Eastman School at the time.

And Ted was the founder of the Bach Festival Chorus,

founder of the Corning Symphony, founder of the Oratorial

Society and was the organist and choirmaster

at Third Presbyterian Church.

So I had gone to the downtown church, but in the summer

they didn't meet in the sanctuary.

If I had gotten into the sanctuary,

I probably would be a member of the downtown church today,

because it is an absolutely gorgeous sanctuary.

But in the summer months, they would

meet upstairs in Hallock Lounge, or one of the other places--

a very informal service.

And but I go to Third Church, and it

was traditional services--

one of the best choirs in the city.

Musically, it's just-- it was a great place.

So that's where I ended up.

So that's how I ended up at Third Church--

big church, about fifteen hundred members at the time--

about fourteen hundred now, I think.

And it is a big place, but it was a progressive congregation.

And I was not out at first.

I was trying to understand what was what.

But I found out about DI originally

through the Gay Alliance, the Empty Closet newspaper.

And then, Presbyterians for Gay Concerns, which

had been started in 1976--

a chapter for Genesee Valley started a national organization

working for change in the Presbyterian church.

And in 1978, during his mid to late seventies

before I moved to Rochester, Virginia Davidson

who was an elder of the downtown Presbyterian church

was the Vice Moderator of the General

Assembly of the national governing

body of the denomination.

And she was asked to chair a task force on the church's

concern with homosexuality, having

to do with the ordination of openly gay people

as clergy in the Presbyterian Church.

So she chaired this task force, and it reported in San Diego

in 1978.

And Virginia had started out as a Pittsford housewife.

And her husband Davey was, I think

it was HR Senior Executive at Kodak.

And their children all grew up, and one

of Virginia's best friends--

who's now a retired Presbyterian clergyman--

came out to her.

And described how difficult it was for him to be himself,

and to serve the church.

And Virginia adored this man, and really wrestled.

And then, saw the injustice in the church.

And so she and Davey then moved to Gibb Street,

just down from Eastman Theater near University.

Very much close to the corner of Gibbs and University--

moved from a suburban to urban setting.

And Virginia became a staunch friend and ally

of the gay community.

So in 1978 at the San Diego assembly,

her task force was giving their report.

And the deck was stacked with anti-gay people.

The commissioners from presbyteries

across the country--

it was a concerted effort to kill that report.

And so the recommendations after four years of study,

and sounding, and having testimony--

from people all around the country,

the recommendation was that sexuality is a gift.

And that one's sexuality should not be a barrier to ordination,

but that people's gifts should be determined

on an individual basis--

case-by-case basis.

That recommendation was rejected.

And instead was, being gay is not God's wish for humanity--

completely turned it upside down.

However, the silver lining in it--

if one could even describe anything as a silver lining

with such a devastating response--

was the expressed commitment by the church for lesbian

and gay civil rights.

So the Presbyterian church has had a long history.

Even the stated clerk of the General Assembly,

when Native Americans, when they had the Trail of Tears,

the stated clerk of the General Assembly

walked with Native Americans when

they were moved forcibly from the eastern seaboard

and had to walk west.

So he walked with them.

So there has been this whole war, if you will,

going on with social justice in the church, and in society,

versus the fundamentalist kind of mindset

that says, well, no, we shouldn't

be interfering with what's going on in the world.

We should be concerned only with people's spiritual souls,

and so forth.

So after that assembly, there were several commissioners

from Genesee Valley--

the Genesee Valley presbytery is parts of five counties

around Rochester.

So it does not include Geneva or Corning,

but it goes south to Letchworth.

And then, almost to Buffalo, but not quite.

So some of those commissioners were

very upset at this kind of pulling

the rug out from under this committee, which

had worked really hard in being faithful

to the church's request to say how can we

move forward on this.

And it was just an attempt to shut down progressive voices

in the church.

So people came back.

And most of them-- they were all straight.

There were men and women, and they started the Presbyterians

for Gay Concerns chapter with some gay people--

like Keith Hershberger and Lee Fisher, who

no longer live in Rochester.

But they had a holy union service

at 12 Corners Presbyterian Church in the mid-seventies,

that a lot of people weren't aware happened.

And then soon after, there were several union services

at Calvary Saint Andrews Church.

So there were a number of--

what was then, initially, Presbyterians for Gay Concerns

which started in 1974.

Rochester became-- I think partly with Virginia

Davidson's--

people were so proud that she led the church in the study.

And there had been a study in 1970, that JC Wynn, who

was on the faculty at Colgate--

Rochester Crozer Divinity School here in Rochester--

that he was part of that national study.

And Dr. Stewart--

Jim Stewart, whose grandfather was one of the physicians

with George Eastman that went on safaris with him

in Africa in his early days.

Jim Stewart who was a member of Third Church--

really learned a lot by talking with JC

Wynn, who was on this initial task force.

I mean, 1970, so it was right after '69.

And the person who brought that whole--

there were two people.

Bill Silvers-- he was a candidate to be a clergy in New

York City Presbytery--

was engaged in Stonewall.

So he was part of Stonewall, as I understand it.

And then, was going to seminary, and wanted

to be able to serve openly as a part of the gay liberation.

And so we asked the presbytery--

you know, New York City Presbytery--

there was New York City, and there was one in New Jersey.

Anyway, so it was absolutely fascinating.

So when he brought, he brought the request

to the New York City Presbytery in Palisades,

which is in New Jersey.

EVELYN BAILEY: Now the story that you

shared with me over dinner last week was about--

the more like community coming into-- oh no,

study of homosexuality by Third Presbyterian Church.

Was that prior to this?

RALPH CARTER: Oh, no.

So what happened was--

so alright so there are these monthly potlucks

in the apartment of Keith and Lee.

And then, with Dee Miller--

she rented an apartment.

They owned the house.

And they were, I think, downstairs,

and Dee was upstairs.

And I think Martha was her partner.

And then, they broke up.

So we had these monthly potlucks.

And Bruce Billman, you may know Bruce--

a number of other people.

And I found them through an ad they put in the Empty Closet.

So I started going.

And I was like, twenty--

right out of college.

So I was twenty-three, twenty-four.

And you know, rollerskating to DI for Sunday night.

You know, they just came out with outdoor skates,

I mean you know the whole thing-- it was a big adventure.

So I started going to Third Church, and joined in 1980.

But it was a big place.

And then, also, in October of '80 was when I met Van.

And he was a member.

He had moved to Rochester from Buffalo.

And he had joined Calvary Saint Andrews because--

do you remember JR and Leo?

At DI?

EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.

RALPH CARTER: Well, they had their union service

at Calvary Saint Andrews, because Walt Symanski who

was the liaison to the gay community from the Episcopal

diocese--

was at Calvary Saint Andrews.

And Calvary Saint Andrews was and one

of the few in the country--

it was a very interesting congregation.

It still is-- a very vibrant congregation.

But it was combined Episcopal-Presbyterian

at the time.

Now, it's just Presbyterian.

They decided that it was too much to go to two

ecclesial meetings a month--

one to Presbyterians, and one to the Episcopal diocese meetings.

So I think Van was at Calvary Saint Andrews.

So just before I moved to Rochester-- that fall.

I think it was the spring of '79.

It was after the General Assembly.

People came back to Rochester in '78.

They came back to Rochester.

And they were all fired up-- we have got to get--

this cannot be.

And we had heard--

it was like, Bruce Billman, Margaret Staltman,

Kava Bleski who's still living--

and Lily Jewels.

Like, three straight women, and Bruce.

They were pretty much the same age--

they were older.

And these three women were, like, best friends.

They decided strategically, we need

to go speak with congregations.

Because we had heard that there were

churches that were starting to call themselves More

Light Churches.

And it was a phrase taken by this pastor in Scotland--

Scotland or England--

John Robinson, to parishioners who

were moving to the new world, he says, "Embrace the new world,

there is yet more light and truth

to spring forth from the Bible."

So to not abandon the Bible, but to embrace

the truths of the Bible, and to make it living.

So that was an organizing principle for Presbyterians

for Gay Concerns.

And so there were congregations that

didn't agree with the '78 decision by the church.

And they began calling themselves More Light Churches,

because they embraced the idea that there is yet

more light to be shed.

And so there were like--

I think it was maybe ten or twelve congregations.

They had this merry band.

They went through the list of seventy-six congregations--

about seventy some-odd.

And they said, "OK, which congregations

should we go visit?"

Presbyterians don't have a bishop,

and so they do everything by committee.

And that gets back to--

I didn't realize this, but back in the battles between England

and Scotland and Ireland and if the King or Queen of England

didn't like what was being said in the pulpits they would put

the bishops in the Tower or you know have their heads--

somehow have them killed--

have them beheaded.

And so the Scots, who were a pretty independent lot,

basically said, well, we're not going to have bishops.

The gathered body of elders will serve

the function of the bishop.

And that was how they defied England-- the monarchy.

And part of the American Revolution--

sometimes it was kind of jokingly

called the Presbyterian Rebellion,

because there were a lot of Scotch and Irish

that came early to get away from the oppression in Great

Britain.

So, where was I?

So Presbyterians, as a result of not

having this kind of top-down hierarchy,

there is a lot of respect for committee process,

and for listening to each other and then making decisions.

So they have no problem studying.

They really embrace new knowledge,

new ways of doing things.

And interestingly, there is a real strong--

it's a connectional church.

It's a credal denomination.

In other words, you've got creeds,

and this is what we believe.

Whereas Baptists, and a number of other denominations do not--

very independent.

So Presbyterians are independent to an extent,

but they believe in the interconnectedness of things.

So when one is recognized as having spiritual gifts,

then you're ordained in one of three offices--

either as a teaching elder, a ruling elder, or deacon.

Teaching is like a clergy.

Ruling elder is a layperson who is

a part of the governance of the congregation,

or presbytery, whatever.

And then, deacon is called to service.

Those ordinations are done locally

on behalf of the whole church.

So when you move from one place to another,

you retain your ordination status.

And you have to be received in whatever the governing, you

know the presbytery, you're received

in a presbytery but your ordination moves with you.

So that's this tension that goes on about, well,

who's ordaining who.

And what are the rules, and how much

flexibility is there in discerning gifts

for the church?

So the local chapter of PGC, which about five years later

became PLGC with recognition of the role of lesbians

in the church.

They made a concerted effort to go

speak with the session, which is the governing body of like ten

or twelve congregations.

Third Presbyterian was one of them.

Calvary Saint Andrews was one of them.

Downtown Church, John Calvin in Henrietta--

which is where Dee Miller used to belong before she moved

to Downtown Church--

Summerville Church.

I don't know who all--

Westminster Church.

Most of them were more urban--

within the city of Rochester--

but there were some suburban congregations.

I know that very early on, like, Downtown Church,

not having any openly gay people as members, but out

of respect for Virginia Davidson, declared,

we're a More Light church.

They were the first congregation in Rochester

to become a More Light church.

Very soon thereafter, John Calvin did--

Calvary Saint Andrews.

There were, like, three of them.

And then, what happened at Third was,

that the presentation came--

the presentation was made.

And they were kind of horrified at the idea, they didn't know,

even though it was a presbytery, the presbytery was I'm sure,

was involved with the whole task force somehow.

But it was Virginia Davidson chairing it.

But the decision of the session was a commitment

to study homosexuality, the topic and that

was their commitment.

Carol Qualedge who was on the staff at Hillside

and had her MSW, was a part of the session at the time.

And Gene Bay who was very engaged in what

was going on education in the city, and a remarkable pastor.

Who, when he left their church, went to the Bryn Mawr

Church in Philadelphia, which is, like, a five thousand

member church--

just an amazing congregation.

And then came back-- and he was the interim president

of the Divinity School for a couple of years--

to help them get their finances in order, and development--get,

what do you call the investments?

Get everything lined up and get sustainable financially.

After the year was almost up, and they hadn't done anything

Carol Qualedge went to Gene and says,

"Gene, are we going to renege on our commitment,

our obligation?"

And he said, "Oh yeah, we did say we were going to do that."

I don't know anything about this.

So he flipped it on her.

He said, "Well, would you chair a study group?"

And she says, "I'll do it on one condition.

And that is, that there be a gay person in the task force.

Because we can't talk about people if none of us

know what it's like to be gay."

And he said, "Fine."

Meanwhile, while all that was happening behind the scenes,

I was part of the PLGC.

And Van was saying, well, why don't you

move to Calvary Saint Andrews?

And I said, well, why don't you move to Third?

You know and then I love Calvary Saint Andrews.

It's a wonderful little urban parish--

feisty.

They've got Judy Hayes, the pastor.

She's so committed to justice and community.

It's one reason why the South Wedge is not gentrified today

is because of the commitment of that congregation

to racial justice.

There should be a way for people of color,

and working poor to be able to stay in their homes.

So that's why they have the tool-lending library and all

of that in the South Wedge.

That's all the social justice piece that covers--

I've always admired that congregation.

So the commitment I made with Van was--

I said, "Van, it's not fair for me to give up on Third Church."

There's people that I know, they're great people,

but they haven't been asked to do anything.

So I did not really realize what the commitment that

had been made by the session.

So there had been a big fund raising nationally,

in which Genesee Valley participated.

It's called Mission Challenge.

And 30 percent, I think, of the funds that were raised

would be kept for local ministry, local mission.

And they had a committee in the presbytery

that would dispense funds.

And people could submit proposals for projects.

Well, one of the staff of the presbytery, Jim Rice--

his widow Lucille is still a member of Third Church--

suggested to Keith and Lee.

He says, "Well, why don't you guys

propose a project of ministry with the gay community,

or on behalf of the gay community?"

So we thought about it.

And we said, well, you know, we've

got this disastrous report, which is not

good news for gay people.

But there's this thing, commitment to civil rights.

So we got the chutzpah, and wrote a proposal.

We wanted five thousand dollars in the early eighties.

Give us five thousand dollars, which

is a big chunk of change, for an ecumenical civil rights

project for people of faith to coalesce and advocate

on behalf of civil rights for lesbian and gay people.

And the presbytery approved it.

This was like, '81 or '82 time frame--

'81, I think it was.

And it was called, CREATE Justice for Lesbian and Gay

Persons.

CREATE was an acronym--

Church's Responsibility to Educate and Advocate

Toward Equality--

and to create justice.

And it was really something.

We ended up having--

between Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse,

we had about four hundred people on our mailing list.

And this was before email.

It was letters.

We had the pink triangle.

I've got the letterhead for it.

We debated-- we printed all this letterhead for it.

And we debated-- we even printed some envelopes.

And we used the envelopes once.

And there was hue and cry, because we were sending out

a business envelope with a pink triangle on it--

CREATE Justice for Lesbian and Gay Persons.

And people returned to sender--

refused.

We had people--

I mean, it was a big, big mistake tactically at the time,

that people of faith could not--

or sometimes people were closeted and receiving mail,

and were horrified.

Some people probably were outed.

Just because they were receiving a letter regarding

a project for civil rights advocacy,

people got in trouble.

So we had to quickly regroup, and we

had all these envelopes we never used,

except for that one mailing.

And we had this whole debate about being out,

not being out-- respecting people's--

you know, are we going to be a very small group

because it's only going to be people who are out?

Or are we going to respect where people are--

compromise, have a plain envelope?

So that's what we ended up doing.

And the brilliant part of the proposal

was, that we knew that people didn't want to talk about it.

So we had to, like, embed in the proposal.

The proposal was that after a year

we would report our progress--

take docket time on the floor of the presbytery.

Five counties-- you've got people

from seventy-six congregations at these presbytery meetings.

And that we would present the progress

that we were making for lesbian and gay civil rights,

as a part of our concern for accountability,

that we were using the funds appropriately and all that.

Well, of course, they had to buy it.

They had to agree, even though people were uncomfortable

talking about this.

So then, we have our potluck.

And it's like, OK, so who's going to present,

and what should we present?

And someone said, "Well, you know,

the big issue is that people don't know--this is not--people

are talking about this without understanding the personal

story, and what it's like to be gay and in the church.

And probably the first thing we ought to do,

is just share story.

Because you only have half an hour anyway, if that,

so that's what we ought to do.

So everybody then asked me if I would share my story.

I was not out at work.

I was not out in the congregation.

Would you share your story?

EVELYN BAILEY: But you're on this committee.

RALPH CARTER: I'm on this committee.

EVELYN BAILEY: Identified as a gay person?

RALPH CARTER: I'm on this CREATE Justice task force.

Yeah, so I was gradually, I was out out, but not out.

But I hadn't told my story before a whole big group

of strangers-- people I didn't know.

So I though about it. and I says, well, I need to do this.

And I said, well, where's the presbytery?

The presbytery meeting was going to be

in the Village of Pittsford at First Presbyterian

Church, Pittsford.

Big congregation, you know--

can be kind of intimidating.

And I said, you know, I can't do this,

speak on the floor of the presbytery meeting

with not having come out to the clergy--

my own pastors at Third Church.

And there were four or five at the time--

four of them.

So I set up individual meetings with all of them.

And they were all very supportive.

I mean, very supportive of me as an individual.

Even though Gene Bay, Senior Pastor, said,

"I support you as a person.

I see you as a person of integrity.

I must admit, I don't know anything about the topic,

or what it's like to be gay.

But you know, I respect what you're doing."

And that was true with all of them.

So then, I got the last one done like the week

before the presbytery meeting.

And then I wrote out what I was going to say.

And basically, I talked about my growing up,

and what it was like growing up in a very conservative farm

setting, rural community in Florida.

And that, having been rejected by my family when I met Van.

So that's how that all came about.

Third Church then had meanwhile--

once I came out to Gene--

this was, like, '81-'82 time frame.

And I was working on this CREATE Justice Project.

Then, I was asked to serve on this committee that

was studying human sexuality.

They had broadened it, which was pretty smart,

because the church was struggling

with teenage sexuality--

abortion, contraception.

There were emerging issues with seniors--

you lose your spouse of thirty, forty years,

and you fall in love again?

What next?

Do you get married?

Do you not get married?

What about the children and grandchildren--

all these family dynamics.

So there was a lot going on--

a lot to consider.

So we said, put homosexuality in the context of human sexuality,

and it will be easier for the church.

And we need to wrestle with these,

and they're interconnected.

So that's what they did.

I was not out during most of that study group.

And what we agreed to do--

EVELYN BAILEY: How did you manage that, Ralph Carter?

RALPH CARTER: I don't know.

I think I was--how do I say this--

in delusion, because I think people

were figuring things out.

But I didn't have the language.

I didn't know-- especially because I was so

hurt by the rejection of my parents, especially my mother.

We were, like, very, very close.

And she told me I was going to burn in hell,

and it was my fault that I was going to burn.

I was going to burn in hell.

EVELYN BAILEY: How old were you?

RALPH CARTER: I was in my mid-twenties.

And my dad, his first question of me was,

"Do you still shave?"

I did not understand.

I had to really think about that, what he was asking.

And it was, I think, he had the idea gay men are not real men.

So therefore, I wouldn't need to shave anymore, because I

somehow was more like a woman.

I don't what he thought, but he actually asked the question,

do you shave anymore?

Do you have to shave?

Isn't that weird?

But that's just because it's not talked about it.

It wasn't talked about.

And so they just didn't have the information.

But it was hard for my parents, and it was hard to be out.

The only way I could go home was to leave Van here,

and to not talk about it.

And after a while, I said, this is not right.

I'm not welcome because Van's part of my life.

So if he's not welcome, I'm not coming.

And my mother died without ever having visited Rochester.

And she would have loved it.

Because she loved history number one.

She loved dolls.

If she'd ever gone into the Strong Museum,

she would have wet her pants, because she just

loved all the stuff.

She loved all of this.

EVELYN BAILEY: What pain though.

RALPH CARTER: Oh, it was terrible.

It was hard for me to verbalize, so I actually

did some counseling for a couple of years,

to reframe what was going on, and understand it.

I'm fine.

I've just been hurt.

And I need to learn how to tell my story.

So I started on this task force--Third Church--

this human sexuality committee.

EVELYN BAILEY: In the closet.

RALPH CARTER: Well, the committee was in the closet.

The congregation didn't even know what was happening.

The church was petrified that this was going to blow up,

and nobody needs to know that we're studying this thing.

Well, so we drew straws on who was going to talk.

We divided up the different topics.

And we had, as it turned out, enough

for one topic for each person.

And I got the one on homosexuality.

It's like, how is that possible?

And Jim Stewart was one of the persons on the committee.

I forgot which one he got.

I think he got abortion.

And I was still chicken.

I was afraid to lead the discussion.

I was afraid, at that time, to come out.

It was so weird.

I think it was all in the middle of the stuff with my parents,

and it was unresolved.

And I felt such rejection and such shame from it.

So I invited--

Van, what was the name of that guy?

He had been a Presbyterian minister.

And he moved to Rochester, and he worked at Kodak.

And then he left Kodak, and he was teaching?

Chuck Collins.

So Chuck came, because Chuck was much more articulate than I.

And I figured, OK, he leads it, then I can speak up.

And I eventually came out to the committee,

but it was after Chuck helped to frame the arguments.

At the time, Dr. Jim Stewart said, "Chuck,

I don't understand how men fall in love with men,

because the body parts don't fit."

And it was all physical.

He was trying to picture how people have sex, or have

how they're intimate with each other.

And that was his big hang up.

And Chuck said, rather graphically,

"Jim, when John falls in love with Bill,

it's John falling in love with Bill.

It's not John's penis falling in love with Bill's penis.

It's the person falling in love with another person.

The body parts figure themselves out, you know?

But it's the person, it's your soul

it's your spirit that sees something

that's attractive about the other person.

It's how they think.

It's how they talk.

It's their aspirations.

It's who they are as a human being that attracts one

to another.

And that's the spark, and everything else

gets figured out.

And there's a small percentage of people that are this way,

and it's probably really, really good for society.

Because if everybody's parents, then you've got overpopulation.

And who can you call on to help care for the kids?

So at the time, there wasn't that much,

you know, people adopting, having kids.

You didn't have in vitro fertilization at that point,

I don't think.

It was later on you had the gayby baby boom going on.

And so I says--

Chuck was giving his analysis.

I get to be the doting uncle.

I get to have a great time.

I can be a kid, because I am a kid.

I'm like an older kid.

And I can play, and I can help kids

make the bridge to adulthood.

And that's the role that I play, and I love it.

I mean, I love kids.

I'd love to have my own kids, but I can't.

At the time, you didn't know how to do that.

So that really that was the logjam

that broke for Dr. Stewart.

And then, I eventually came out with that group.

And one of the people.

One of the staff persons was Pat Youngdahl.

That was her first pastorate was at Third Church.

And she fell in love with Michael McKenzie.

The congregation didn't know it.

And then, she moves to Michigan, and then she

moves to Tucson, Arizona-- which is where

Michael's mom lives I believe.

Tucson or Phoenix-- I think it's Tucson.

And then, of course, she came back to Rochester

to be the Pastor of Downtown Church.

Amazing.

But Pat was brilliant.

She really helped us.

So we had this cloister, one-year-long study

of human sexuality at Third Church, after which we,

well we got to report to session.

We don't want to talk about it, but we've got to do it.

And we were so excited, because we learned so much.

And it is not so much the result--

not that you have answers, but you have knowledge.

You have more knowledge, and you have more understanding of what

people are going through.

So you can help people no matter where

they are on the continuum, because you have knowledge.

And so our presentation to session was,

the congregation needs to know this.

We have learned so much, and we are so excited about it,

we ought to have a theologian in residence

to talk about human sexuality.

And they bought it.

And so we brought Peggy Way from Vanderbilt Seminary, who

was someone with disabilities.

And she comes in--

she was actually a professor of Pat Youngdahl

when she went to Vanderbilt Seminary.

She's wonderful process-wise, in helping people

to talk in a safe way.

So Peggy Way did this three-day long weekend--

Friday night, Saturday, Sunday morning.

And people were invited to name human sexuality topics that

were of interest to them.

What drew them to this conversation?

And so already, even though people weren't out,

a number of people talked about homosexuality as something

they wanted to know more about.

Some people talked about the experience of divorce,

and the lack of support from the congregation

when they got a divorce.

So we had this wonderful weekend,

and Peggy planted the seed.

The seed was, no matter what the topic each of us

are conserving on some things and have a liberating viewpoint

on another and we go back and forth depending on the topic

and depending on our experience of where we are at the moment.

So she says, I recommended that your first rule of thumb

be, above all, to care for each other as a community.

And to commit to listen to each other,

and to not use words like conserving-liberating

versus conservative-liberal.

Because if you're really truthful,

you'll find yourself in both camps, or somewhere in between

depending on the topic.

And depending on what's going on in your life at the time,

and your knowledge of the topic.

So that was very, very helpful.

Then, the weekend after she came,

we had an adult education forum on what next.

Because I said, "We can't let this thing die."

So then out of that came two topics--

two ad hoc committees.

One, on supporting members of the congregation who

have experienced, or are experiencing divorce.

And the second one, on homosexuality.

From that began a six-year dialogue

on what it means to be a church that welcomes

gay people in the church.

And we had our own ad hoc committee.

And the first thing we wanted to do

was to start a support group that met on a regular basis.

So that while we're having this long discussion,

that there was a place where people could come

and be themselves in safety.

And I think we kind of stumbled on it.

But I know that I feel tremendous support

by having this safe group called Presbyterians

for Gay Concerns that's not in a congregation,

but is in somebody's home.

But if we're talking about what it means to be a congregation--

shall we or shall we not welcome people--

that needs to be a place where members can feel safe

within the congregation.

So we took this proposal to session.

And before we took it to session I was having, like, what are we

going to do if they say no.

Pat Youngdahl says, "Never let people take your power.

There's a high road, and there's a low road.

Both get you to your destination,

but are different paths.

Try the high road.

If the high road doesn't work, do the low road.

Either way, you're going to have your support group.

The question is, whether or not you

can publicize it in the church newsletter, in the community.

How visible is the group going to be?

You're still going to have your group.

Never let them take your power."

That was a big learn for me, and Pat was wise to say that.

Because that really helped me a lot personally.

I was always afraid of the rejection--

being rejected.

So we went, and then they first debated.

Believe it or not, what they hated--

there was a big hue and cry on the word support.

Well, we don't know that we support this.

EVELYN BAILEY: Support?

RALPH CARTER: Support gay and lesbian people--

that was the argument.

So the compromise was, that we will have a support group,