Audio Interview, Ralph Carter, April 1, 2012
- EVELYN BAILEY: Ralph, when did you come to Rochester?
- RALPH CARTER: Right out of college.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Do you want to share with me the year?
- RALPH CARTER: It was 1979--
- summer of '79.
- And I started work at Xerox July 2nd, 1979.
- EVELYN BAILEY: When did you get involved
- with Third Pres, and the Pride In The Pulpit kind of work?
- RALPH CARTER: Well, I was looking for a church home.
- And I'd always been--
- I grew up Presbyterian in Florida, went to Georgia Tech.
- Stayed at the Presbyterian campus building,
- until I joined a fraternity my sophomore year
- and moved into the fraternity house.
- And then I was coming out in college.
- And so the question in my mind was,
- can I integrate my sexuality and my spirituality?
- So I moved to Rochester, and for about the first six months
- I was living in Webster.
- But I was always traveling into town.
- So I said, I got to move into the city.
- So I broke my lease.
- (Laughs) And moved downtown with Mark Brzezinski, who
- was moving from Jamestown, I guess it was at the same time.
- And we met at DI--
- I very quickly found DI.
- So Mark and I got an apartment together,
- because he was between jobs at the time--
- when he first moved to Rochester,
- leaving his marriage.
- And so we became roommates.
- And we were at 500 Park Avenue.
- What a great address.
- And they were ripping up the railroad ties--
- you remember, from the trolley?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- RALPH CARTER: Trolley tracks, '79-'80--
- right around that time frame.
- And our apartment was the corner Westminster and Park Avenue,
- and it was right near the turnaround park
- right there where the trolley turned
- around just past Westminster on Park Avenue.
- And there's a little park there now,
- but that was where the trolley turned around.
- And I loved it.
- But I found DI--
- Dignity Integrity and the big question in my mind
- was whether I could integrate my sexuality and spirituality.
- Well, I rode my bicycle.
- I love music, And the Philharmonic
- was playing at the Highland Bowl.
- So I went to Highland Bowl.
- And people were having picnics, and it was just beautiful.
- What a great city.
- So there were people from the Rochester Oratorial
- Society passing out flyers--
- you know, half sheets--
- inviting people to come and join the Oratorial Society.
- So I had sung in college at the Georgia Tech Glee Club
- and all that.
- I'd been very active in music stuff.
- And so I said, well, I should join the Oratorial Society--
- I didn't know a soul moving to Rochester.
- Well, on the flip side of the invitation
- was a little bio of the director,
- Ted Hollenbach, who I've since learned was gay.
- And had been kicked out of the Eastman School
- because he was openly gay.
- And there were a lot of closeted professors in faculty
- at the Eastman School at the time.
- And Ted was the founder of the Bach Festival Chorus,
- founder of the Corning Symphony, founder of the Oratorial
- Society and was the organist and choirmaster
- at Third Presbyterian Church.
- So I had gone to the downtown church, but in the summer
- they didn't meet in the sanctuary.
- If I had gotten into the sanctuary,
- I probably would be a member of the downtown church today,
- because it is an absolutely gorgeous sanctuary.
- But in the summer months, they would
- meet upstairs in Hallock Lounge, or one of the other places--
- a very informal service.
- And but I go to Third Church, and it
- was traditional services--
- one of the best choirs in the city.
- Musically, it's just-- it was a great place.
- So that's where I ended up.
- So that's how I ended up at Third Church--
- big church, about fifteen hundred members at the time--
- about fourteen hundred now, I think.
- And it is a big place, but it was a progressive congregation.
- And I was not out at first.
- I was trying to understand what was what.
- But I found out about DI originally
- through the Gay Alliance, the Empty Closet newspaper.
- And then, Presbyterians for Gay Concerns, which
- had been started in 1976--
- a chapter for Genesee Valley started a national organization
- working for change in the Presbyterian church.
- And in 1978, during his mid to late seventies
- before I moved to Rochester, Virginia Davidson
- who was an elder of the downtown Presbyterian church
- was the Vice Moderator of the General
- Assembly of the national governing
- body of the denomination.
- And she was asked to chair a task force on the church's
- concern with homosexuality, having
- to do with the ordination of openly gay people
- as clergy in the Presbyterian Church.
- So she chaired this task force, and it reported in San Diego
- in 1978.
- And Virginia had started out as a Pittsford housewife.
- And her husband Davey was, I think
- it was HR Senior Executive at Kodak.
- And their children all grew up, and one
- of Virginia's best friends--
- who's now a retired Presbyterian clergyman--
- came out to her.
- And described how difficult it was for him to be himself,
- and to serve the church.
- And Virginia adored this man, and really wrestled.
- And then, saw the injustice in the church.
- And so she and Davey then moved to Gibb Street,
- just down from Eastman Theater near University.
- Very much close to the corner of Gibbs and University--
- moved from a suburban to urban setting.
- And Virginia became a staunch friend and ally
- of the gay community.
- So in 1978 at the San Diego assembly,
- her task force was giving their report.
- And the deck was stacked with anti-gay people.
- The commissioners from presbyteries
- across the country--
- it was a concerted effort to kill that report.
- And so the recommendations after four years of study,
- and sounding, and having testimony--
- from people all around the country,
- the recommendation was that sexuality is a gift.
- And that one's sexuality should not be a barrier to ordination,
- but that people's gifts should be determined
- on an individual basis--
- case-by-case basis.
- That recommendation was rejected.
- And instead was, being gay is not God's wish for humanity--
- completely turned it upside down.
- However, the silver lining in it--
- if one could even describe anything as a silver lining
- with such a devastating response--
- was the expressed commitment by the church for lesbian
- and gay civil rights.
- So the Presbyterian church has had a long history.
- Even the stated clerk of the General Assembly,
- when Native Americans, when they had the Trail of Tears,
- the stated clerk of the General Assembly
- walked with Native Americans when
- they were moved forcibly from the eastern seaboard
- and had to walk west.
- So he walked with them.
- So there has been this whole war, if you will,
- going on with social justice in the church, and in society,
- versus the fundamentalist kind of mindset
- that says, well, no, we shouldn't
- be interfering with what's going on in the world.
- We should be concerned only with people's spiritual souls,
- and so forth.
- So after that assembly, there were several commissioners
- from Genesee Valley--
- the Genesee Valley presbytery is parts of five counties
- around Rochester.
- So it does not include Geneva or Corning,
- but it goes south to Letchworth.
- And then, almost to Buffalo, but not quite.
- So some of those commissioners were
- very upset at this kind of pulling
- the rug out from under this committee, which
- had worked really hard in being faithful
- to the church's request to say how can we
- move forward on this.
- And it was just an attempt to shut down progressive voices
- in the church.
- So people came back.
- And most of them-- they were all straight.
- There were men and women, and they started the Presbyterians
- for Gay Concerns chapter with some gay people--
- like Keith Hershberger and Lee Fisher, who
- no longer live in Rochester.
- But they had a holy union service
- at 12 Corners Presbyterian Church in the mid-seventies,
- that a lot of people weren't aware happened.
- And then soon after, there were several union services
- at Calvary Saint Andrews Church.
- So there were a number of--
- what was then, initially, Presbyterians for Gay Concerns
- which started in 1974.
- Rochester became-- I think partly with Virginia
- Davidson's--
- people were so proud that she led the church in the study.
- And there had been a study in 1970, that JC Wynn, who
- was on the faculty at Colgate--
- Rochester Crozer Divinity School here in Rochester--
- that he was part of that national study.
- And Dr. Stewart--
- Jim Stewart, whose grandfather was one of the physicians
- with George Eastman that went on safaris with him
- in Africa in his early days.
- Jim Stewart who was a member of Third Church--
- really learned a lot by talking with JC
- Wynn, who was on this initial task force.
- I mean, 1970, so it was right after '69.
- And the person who brought that whole--
- there were two people.
- Bill Silvers-- he was a candidate to be a clergy in New
- York City Presbytery--
- was engaged in Stonewall.
- So he was part of Stonewall, as I understand it.
- And then, was going to seminary, and wanted
- to be able to serve openly as a part of the gay liberation.
- And so we asked the presbytery--
- you know, New York City Presbytery--
- there was New York City, and there was one in New Jersey.
- Anyway, so it was absolutely fascinating.
- So when he brought, he brought the request
- to the New York City Presbytery in Palisades,
- which is in New Jersey.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Now the story that you
- shared with me over dinner last week was about--
- the more like community coming into-- oh no,
- study of homosexuality by Third Presbyterian Church.
- Was that prior to this?
- RALPH CARTER: Oh, no.
- So what happened was--
- so alright so there are these monthly potlucks
- in the apartment of Keith and Lee.
- And then, with Dee Miller--
- she rented an apartment.
- They owned the house.
- And they were, I think, downstairs,
- and Dee was upstairs.
- And I think Martha was her partner.
- And then, they broke up.
- So we had these monthly potlucks.
- And Bruce Billman, you may know Bruce--
- a number of other people.
- And I found them through an ad they put in the Empty Closet.
- So I started going.
- And I was like, twenty--
- right out of college.
- So I was twenty-three, twenty-four.
- And you know, rollerskating to DI for Sunday night.
- You know, they just came out with outdoor skates,
- I mean you know the whole thing-- it was a big adventure.
- So I started going to Third Church, and joined in 1980.
- But it was a big place.
- And then, also, in October of '80 was when I met Van.
- And he was a member.
- He had moved to Rochester from Buffalo.
- And he had joined Calvary Saint Andrews because--
- do you remember JR and Leo?
- At DI?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
- RALPH CARTER: Well, they had their union service
- at Calvary Saint Andrews, because Walt Symanski who
- was the liaison to the gay community from the Episcopal
- diocese--
- was at Calvary Saint Andrews.
- And Calvary Saint Andrews was and one
- of the few in the country--
- it was a very interesting congregation.
- It still is-- a very vibrant congregation.
- But it was combined Episcopal-Presbyterian
- at the time.
- Now, it's just Presbyterian.
- They decided that it was too much to go to two
- ecclesial meetings a month--
- one to Presbyterians, and one to the Episcopal diocese meetings.
- So I think Van was at Calvary Saint Andrews.
- So just before I moved to Rochester-- that fall.
- I think it was the spring of '79.
- It was after the General Assembly.
- People came back to Rochester in '78.
- They came back to Rochester.
- And they were all fired up-- we have got to get--
- this cannot be.
- And we had heard--
- it was like, Bruce Billman, Margaret Staltman,
- Kava Bleski who's still living--
- and Lily Jewels.
- Like, three straight women, and Bruce.
- They were pretty much the same age--
- they were older.
- And these three women were, like, best friends.
- They decided strategically, we need
- to go speak with congregations.
- Because we had heard that there were
- churches that were starting to call themselves More
- Light Churches.
- And it was a phrase taken by this pastor in Scotland--
- Scotland or England--
- John Robinson, to parishioners who
- were moving to the new world, he says, "Embrace the new world,
- there is yet more light and truth
- to spring forth from the Bible."
- So to not abandon the Bible, but to embrace
- the truths of the Bible, and to make it living.
- So that was an organizing principle for Presbyterians
- for Gay Concerns.
- And so there were congregations that
- didn't agree with the '78 decision by the church.
- And they began calling themselves More Light Churches,
- because they embraced the idea that there is yet
- more light to be shed.
- And so there were like--
- I think it was maybe ten or twelve congregations.
- They had this merry band.
- They went through the list of seventy-six congregations--
- about seventy some-odd.
- And they said, "OK, which congregations
- should we go visit?"
- Presbyterians don't have a bishop,
- and so they do everything by committee.
- And that gets back to--
- I didn't realize this, but back in the battles between England
- and Scotland and Ireland and if the King or Queen of England
- didn't like what was being said in the pulpits they would put
- the bishops in the Tower or you know have their heads--
- somehow have them killed--
- have them beheaded.
- And so the Scots, who were a pretty independent lot,
- basically said, well, we're not going to have bishops.
- The gathered body of elders will serve
- the function of the bishop.
- And that was how they defied England-- the monarchy.
- And part of the American Revolution--
- sometimes it was kind of jokingly
- called the Presbyterian Rebellion,
- because there were a lot of Scotch and Irish
- that came early to get away from the oppression in Great
- Britain.
- So, where was I?
- So Presbyterians, as a result of not
- having this kind of top-down hierarchy,
- there is a lot of respect for committee process,
- and for listening to each other and then making decisions.
- So they have no problem studying.
- They really embrace new knowledge,
- new ways of doing things.
- And interestingly, there is a real strong--
- it's a connectional church.
- It's a credal denomination.
- In other words, you've got creeds,
- and this is what we believe.
- Whereas Baptists, and a number of other denominations do not--
- very independent.
- So Presbyterians are independent to an extent,
- but they believe in the interconnectedness of things.
- So when one is recognized as having spiritual gifts,
- then you're ordained in one of three offices--
- either as a teaching elder, a ruling elder, or deacon.
- Teaching is like a clergy.
- Ruling elder is a layperson who is
- a part of the governance of the congregation,
- or presbytery, whatever.
- And then, deacon is called to service.
- Those ordinations are done locally
- on behalf of the whole church.
- So when you move from one place to another,
- you retain your ordination status.
- And you have to be received in whatever the governing, you
- know the presbytery, you're received
- in a presbytery but your ordination moves with you.
- So that's this tension that goes on about, well,
- who's ordaining who.
- And what are the rules, and how much
- flexibility is there in discerning gifts
- for the church?
- So the local chapter of PGC, which about five years later
- became PLGC with recognition of the role of lesbians
- in the church.
- They made a concerted effort to go
- speak with the session, which is the governing body of like ten
- or twelve congregations.
- Third Presbyterian was one of them.
- Calvary Saint Andrews was one of them.
- Downtown Church, John Calvin in Henrietta--
- which is where Dee Miller used to belong before she moved
- to Downtown Church--
- Summerville Church.
- I don't know who all--
- Westminster Church.
- Most of them were more urban--
- within the city of Rochester--
- but there were some suburban congregations.
- I know that very early on, like, Downtown Church,
- not having any openly gay people as members, but out
- of respect for Virginia Davidson, declared,
- we're a More Light church.
- They were the first congregation in Rochester
- to become a More Light church.
- Very soon thereafter, John Calvin did--
- Calvary Saint Andrews.
- There were, like, three of them.
- And then, what happened at Third was,
- that the presentation came--
- the presentation was made.
- And they were kind of horrified at the idea, they didn't know,
- even though it was a presbytery, the presbytery was I'm sure,
- was involved with the whole task force somehow.
- But it was Virginia Davidson chairing it.
- But the decision of the session was a commitment
- to study homosexuality, the topic and that
- was their commitment.
- Carol Qualedge who was on the staff at Hillside
- and had her MSW, was a part of the session at the time.
- And Gene Bay who was very engaged in what
- was going on education in the city, and a remarkable pastor.
- Who, when he left their church, went to the Bryn Mawr
- Church in Philadelphia, which is, like, a five thousand
- member church--
- just an amazing congregation.
- And then came back-- and he was the interim president
- of the Divinity School for a couple of years--
- to help them get their finances in order, and development--get,
- what do you call the investments?
- Get everything lined up and get sustainable financially.
- After the year was almost up, and they hadn't done anything
- Carol Qualedge went to Gene and says,
- "Gene, are we going to renege on our commitment,
- our obligation?"
- And he said, "Oh yeah, we did say we were going to do that."
- I don't know anything about this.
- So he flipped it on her.
- He said, "Well, would you chair a study group?"
- And she says, "I'll do it on one condition.
- And that is, that there be a gay person in the task force.
- Because we can't talk about people if none of us
- know what it's like to be gay."
- And he said, "Fine."
- Meanwhile, while all that was happening behind the scenes,
- I was part of the PLGC.
- And Van was saying, well, why don't you
- move to Calvary Saint Andrews?
- And I said, well, why don't you move to Third?
- You know and then I love Calvary Saint Andrews.
- It's a wonderful little urban parish--
- feisty.
- They've got Judy Hayes, the pastor.
- She's so committed to justice and community.
- It's one reason why the South Wedge is not gentrified today
- is because of the commitment of that congregation
- to racial justice.
- There should be a way for people of color,
- and working poor to be able to stay in their homes.
- So that's why they have the tool-lending library and all
- of that in the South Wedge.
- That's all the social justice piece that covers--
- I've always admired that congregation.
- So the commitment I made with Van was--
- I said, "Van, it's not fair for me to give up on Third Church."
- There's people that I know, they're great people,
- but they haven't been asked to do anything.
- So I did not really realize what the commitment that
- had been made by the session.
- So there had been a big fund raising nationally,
- in which Genesee Valley participated.
- It's called Mission Challenge.
- And 30 percent, I think, of the funds that were raised
- would be kept for local ministry, local mission.
- And they had a committee in the presbytery
- that would dispense funds.
- And people could submit proposals for projects.
- Well, one of the staff of the presbytery, Jim Rice--
- his widow Lucille is still a member of Third Church--
- suggested to Keith and Lee.
- He says, "Well, why don't you guys
- propose a project of ministry with the gay community,
- or on behalf of the gay community?"
- So we thought about it.
- And we said, well, you know, we've
- got this disastrous report, which is not
- good news for gay people.
- But there's this thing, commitment to civil rights.
- So we got the chutzpah, and wrote a proposal.
- We wanted five thousand dollars in the early eighties.
- Give us five thousand dollars, which
- is a big chunk of change, for an ecumenical civil rights
- project for people of faith to coalesce and advocate
- on behalf of civil rights for lesbian and gay people.
- And the presbytery approved it.
- This was like, '81 or '82 time frame--
- '81, I think it was.
- And it was called, CREATE Justice for Lesbian and Gay
- Persons.
- CREATE was an acronym--
- Church's Responsibility to Educate and Advocate
- Toward Equality--
- and to create justice.
- And it was really something.
- We ended up having--
- between Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse,
- we had about four hundred people on our mailing list.
- And this was before email.
- It was letters.
- We had the pink triangle.
- I've got the letterhead for it.
- We debated-- we printed all this letterhead for it.
- And we debated-- we even printed some envelopes.
- And we used the envelopes once.
- And there was hue and cry, because we were sending out
- a business envelope with a pink triangle on it--
- CREATE Justice for Lesbian and Gay Persons.
- And people returned to sender--
- refused.
- We had people--
- I mean, it was a big, big mistake tactically at the time,
- that people of faith could not--
- or sometimes people were closeted and receiving mail,
- and were horrified.
- Some people probably were outed.
- Just because they were receiving a letter regarding
- a project for civil rights advocacy,
- people got in trouble.
- So we had to quickly regroup, and we
- had all these envelopes we never used,
- except for that one mailing.
- And we had this whole debate about being out,
- not being out-- respecting people's--
- you know, are we going to be a very small group
- because it's only going to be people who are out?
- Or are we going to respect where people are--
- compromise, have a plain envelope?
- So that's what we ended up doing.
- And the brilliant part of the proposal
- was, that we knew that people didn't want to talk about it.
- So we had to, like, embed in the proposal.
- The proposal was that after a year
- we would report our progress--
- take docket time on the floor of the presbytery.
- Five counties-- you've got people
- from seventy-six congregations at these presbytery meetings.
- And that we would present the progress
- that we were making for lesbian and gay civil rights,
- as a part of our concern for accountability,
- that we were using the funds appropriately and all that.
- Well, of course, they had to buy it.
- They had to agree, even though people were uncomfortable
- talking about this.
- So then, we have our potluck.
- And it's like, OK, so who's going to present,
- and what should we present?
- And someone said, "Well, you know,
- the big issue is that people don't know--this is not--people
- are talking about this without understanding the personal
- story, and what it's like to be gay and in the church.
- And probably the first thing we ought to do,
- is just share story.
- Because you only have half an hour anyway, if that,
- so that's what we ought to do.
- So everybody then asked me if I would share my story.
- I was not out at work.
- I was not out in the congregation.
- Would you share your story?
- EVELYN BAILEY: But you're on this committee.
- RALPH CARTER: I'm on this committee.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Identified as a gay person?
- RALPH CARTER: I'm on this CREATE Justice task force.
- Yeah, so I was gradually, I was out out, but not out.
- But I hadn't told my story before a whole big group
- of strangers-- people I didn't know.
- So I though about it. and I says, well, I need to do this.
- And I said, well, where's the presbytery?
- The presbytery meeting was going to be
- in the Village of Pittsford at First Presbyterian
- Church, Pittsford.
- Big congregation, you know--
- can be kind of intimidating.
- And I said, you know, I can't do this,
- speak on the floor of the presbytery meeting
- with not having come out to the clergy--
- my own pastors at Third Church.
- And there were four or five at the time--
- four of them.
- So I set up individual meetings with all of them.
- And they were all very supportive.
- I mean, very supportive of me as an individual.
- Even though Gene Bay, Senior Pastor, said,
- "I support you as a person.
- I see you as a person of integrity.
- I must admit, I don't know anything about the topic,
- or what it's like to be gay.
- But you know, I respect what you're doing."
- And that was true with all of them.
- So then, I got the last one done like the week
- before the presbytery meeting.
- And then I wrote out what I was going to say.
- And basically, I talked about my growing up,
- and what it was like growing up in a very conservative farm
- setting, rural community in Florida.
- And that, having been rejected by my family when I met Van.
- So that's how that all came about.
- Third Church then had meanwhile--
- once I came out to Gene--
- this was, like, '81-'82 time frame.
- And I was working on this CREATE Justice Project.
- Then, I was asked to serve on this committee that
- was studying human sexuality.
- They had broadened it, which was pretty smart,
- because the church was struggling
- with teenage sexuality--
- abortion, contraception.
- There were emerging issues with seniors--
- you lose your spouse of thirty, forty years,
- and you fall in love again?
- What next?
- Do you get married?
- Do you not get married?
- What about the children and grandchildren--
- all these family dynamics.
- So there was a lot going on--
- a lot to consider.
- So we said, put homosexuality in the context of human sexuality,
- and it will be easier for the church.
- And we need to wrestle with these,
- and they're interconnected.
- So that's what they did.
- I was not out during most of that study group.
- And what we agreed to do--
- EVELYN BAILEY: How did you manage that, Ralph Carter?
- RALPH CARTER: I don't know.
- I think I was--how do I say this--
- in delusion, because I think people
- were figuring things out.
- But I didn't have the language.
- I didn't know-- especially because I was so
- hurt by the rejection of my parents, especially my mother.
- We were, like, very, very close.
- And she told me I was going to burn in hell,
- and it was my fault that I was going to burn.
- I was going to burn in hell.
- EVELYN BAILEY: How old were you?
- RALPH CARTER: I was in my mid-twenties.
- And my dad, his first question of me was,
- "Do you still shave?"
- I did not understand.
- I had to really think about that, what he was asking.
- And it was, I think, he had the idea gay men are not real men.
- So therefore, I wouldn't need to shave anymore, because I
- somehow was more like a woman.
- I don't what he thought, but he actually asked the question,
- do you shave anymore?
- Do you have to shave?
- Isn't that weird?
- But that's just because it's not talked about it.
- It wasn't talked about.
- And so they just didn't have the information.
- But it was hard for my parents, and it was hard to be out.
- The only way I could go home was to leave Van here,
- and to not talk about it.
- And after a while, I said, this is not right.
- I'm not welcome because Van's part of my life.
- So if he's not welcome, I'm not coming.
- And my mother died without ever having visited Rochester.
- And she would have loved it.
- Because she loved history number one.
- She loved dolls.
- If she'd ever gone into the Strong Museum,
- she would have wet her pants, because she just
- loved all the stuff.
- She loved all of this.
- EVELYN BAILEY: What pain though.
- RALPH CARTER: Oh, it was terrible.
- It was hard for me to verbalize, so I actually
- did some counseling for a couple of years,
- to reframe what was going on, and understand it.
- I'm fine.
- I've just been hurt.
- And I need to learn how to tell my story.
- So I started on this task force--Third Church--
- this human sexuality committee.
- EVELYN BAILEY: In the closet.
- RALPH CARTER: Well, the committee was in the closet.
- The congregation didn't even know what was happening.
- The church was petrified that this was going to blow up,
- and nobody needs to know that we're studying this thing.
- Well, so we drew straws on who was going to talk.
- We divided up the different topics.
- And we had, as it turned out, enough
- for one topic for each person.
- And I got the one on homosexuality.
- It's like, how is that possible?
- And Jim Stewart was one of the persons on the committee.
- I forgot which one he got.
- I think he got abortion.
- And I was still chicken.
- I was afraid to lead the discussion.
- I was afraid, at that time, to come out.
- It was so weird.
- I think it was all in the middle of the stuff with my parents,
- and it was unresolved.
- And I felt such rejection and such shame from it.
- So I invited--
- Van, what was the name of that guy?
- He had been a Presbyterian minister.
- And he moved to Rochester, and he worked at Kodak.
- And then he left Kodak, and he was teaching?
- Chuck Collins.
- So Chuck came, because Chuck was much more articulate than I.
- And I figured, OK, he leads it, then I can speak up.
- And I eventually came out to the committee,
- but it was after Chuck helped to frame the arguments.
- At the time, Dr. Jim Stewart said, "Chuck,
- I don't understand how men fall in love with men,
- because the body parts don't fit."
- And it was all physical.
- He was trying to picture how people have sex, or have
- how they're intimate with each other.
- And that was his big hang up.
- And Chuck said, rather graphically,
- "Jim, when John falls in love with Bill,
- it's John falling in love with Bill.
- It's not John's penis falling in love with Bill's penis.
- It's the person falling in love with another person.
- The body parts figure themselves out, you know?
- But it's the person, it's your soul
- it's your spirit that sees something
- that's attractive about the other person.
- It's how they think.
- It's how they talk.
- It's their aspirations.
- It's who they are as a human being that attracts one
- to another.
- And that's the spark, and everything else
- gets figured out.
- And there's a small percentage of people that are this way,
- and it's probably really, really good for society.
- Because if everybody's parents, then you've got overpopulation.
- And who can you call on to help care for the kids?
- So at the time, there wasn't that much,
- you know, people adopting, having kids.
- You didn't have in vitro fertilization at that point,
- I don't think.
- It was later on you had the gayby baby boom going on.
- And so I says--
- Chuck was giving his analysis.
- I get to be the doting uncle.
- I get to have a great time.
- I can be a kid, because I am a kid.
- I'm like an older kid.
- And I can play, and I can help kids
- make the bridge to adulthood.
- And that's the role that I play, and I love it.
- I mean, I love kids.
- I'd love to have my own kids, but I can't.
- At the time, you didn't know how to do that.
- So that really that was the logjam
- that broke for Dr. Stewart.
- And then, I eventually came out with that group.
- And one of the people.
- One of the staff persons was Pat Youngdahl.
- That was her first pastorate was at Third Church.
- And she fell in love with Michael McKenzie.
- The congregation didn't know it.
- And then, she moves to Michigan, and then she
- moves to Tucson, Arizona-- which is where
- Michael's mom lives I believe.
- Tucson or Phoenix-- I think it's Tucson.
- And then, of course, she came back to Rochester
- to be the Pastor of Downtown Church.
- Amazing.
- But Pat was brilliant.
- She really helped us.
- So we had this cloister, one-year-long study
- of human sexuality at Third Church, after which we,
- well we got to report to session.
- We don't want to talk about it, but we've got to do it.
- And we were so excited, because we learned so much.
- And it is not so much the result--
- not that you have answers, but you have knowledge.
- You have more knowledge, and you have more understanding of what
- people are going through.
- So you can help people no matter where
- they are on the continuum, because you have knowledge.
- And so our presentation to session was,
- the congregation needs to know this.
- We have learned so much, and we are so excited about it,
- we ought to have a theologian in residence
- to talk about human sexuality.
- And they bought it.
- And so we brought Peggy Way from Vanderbilt Seminary, who
- was someone with disabilities.
- And she comes in--
- she was actually a professor of Pat Youngdahl
- when she went to Vanderbilt Seminary.
- She's wonderful process-wise, in helping people
- to talk in a safe way.
- So Peggy Way did this three-day long weekend--
- Friday night, Saturday, Sunday morning.
- And people were invited to name human sexuality topics that
- were of interest to them.
- What drew them to this conversation?
- And so already, even though people weren't out,
- a number of people talked about homosexuality as something
- they wanted to know more about.
- Some people talked about the experience of divorce,
- and the lack of support from the congregation
- when they got a divorce.
- So we had this wonderful weekend,
- and Peggy planted the seed.
- The seed was, no matter what the topic each of us
- are conserving on some things and have a liberating viewpoint
- on another and we go back and forth depending on the topic
- and depending on our experience of where we are at the moment.
- So she says, I recommended that your first rule of thumb
- be, above all, to care for each other as a community.
- And to commit to listen to each other,
- and to not use words like conserving-liberating
- versus conservative-liberal.
- Because if you're really truthful,
- you'll find yourself in both camps, or somewhere in between
- depending on the topic.
- And depending on what's going on in your life at the time,
- and your knowledge of the topic.
- So that was very, very helpful.
- Then, the weekend after she came,
- we had an adult education forum on what next.
- Because I said, "We can't let this thing die."
- So then out of that came two topics--
- two ad hoc committees.
- One, on supporting members of the congregation who
- have experienced, or are experiencing divorce.
- And the second one, on homosexuality.
- From that began a six-year dialogue
- on what it means to be a church that welcomes
- gay people in the church.
- And we had our own ad hoc committee.
- And the first thing we wanted to do
- was to start a support group that met on a regular basis.
- So that while we're having this long discussion,
- that there was a place where people could come
- and be themselves in safety.
- And I think we kind of stumbled on it.
- But I know that I feel tremendous support
- by having this safe group called Presbyterians
- for Gay Concerns that's not in a congregation,
- but is in somebody's home.
- But if we're talking about what it means to be a congregation--
- shall we or shall we not welcome people--
- that needs to be a place where members can feel safe
- within the congregation.
- So we took this proposal to session.
- And before we took it to session I was having, like, what are we
- going to do if they say no.
- Pat Youngdahl says, "Never let people take your power.
- There's a high road, and there's a low road.
- Both get you to your destination,
- but are different paths.
- Try the high road.
- If the high road doesn't work, do the low road.
- Either way, you're going to have your support group.
- The question is, whether or not you
- can publicize it in the church newsletter, in the community.
- How visible is the group going to be?
- You're still going to have your group.
- Never let them take your power."
- That was a big learn for me, and Pat was wise to say that.
- Because that really helped me a lot personally.
- I was always afraid of the rejection--
- being rejected.
- So we went, and then they first debated.
- Believe it or not, what they hated--
- there was a big hue and cry on the word support.
- Well, we don't know that we support this.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Support?
- RALPH CARTER: Support gay and lesbian people--
- that was the argument.
- So the compromise was, that we will have a support group,
- but it's going to be for members of the congregation.
- Because they were, believe it or not--
- this is where the homophobia comes in.
- Leadership of the congregation were afraid
- that we might publicize this in the community,
- and we would be inundated with gay people in the congregation.
- And we can't have those people.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Oh, of course not.
- RALPH CARTER: Of course you can also say,
- don't flatter yourself.
- You think that if you say that, all of a sudden you're
- going to be inundated with people-- oh, let me
- in that place.
- Oh, I want to go to that church.
- Let me in!
- What an arrogance.
- But also, it's kind of weird that it
- had that kind of response.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Well, yeah.
- Yeah, it's another form of denial.
- And another form of not actually saying no, but not
- actually saying yes.
- RALPH CARTER: Yeah.
- So that was the commitment.
- So what we ended up doing with Third,
- as we did with the presbytery project in formulating it--
- we said, OK, anything you do at Third Church is--
- Third Church is a very programmatic-oriented,
- high caliber--
- it's a pretty sophisticated kind of place.
- It's not just a, oh, you get an idea
- and you're just going to just do it.
- No, you've got to have, what is the project plan?
- How is this going to be run?
- You know, you've got twenty questions
- asked around anything.
- So we actually had a document.
- And it described, we're going to have male and female.
- We're going to have professional facilitators--
- people who are trained MSW.
- Carol Qualage was going to be one of them.
- And we have at least one of the two who was going
- to be professionally trained.
- It's going to be confidential.
- We were going to make it a safe environment, where
- people could speak, but they're not required to speak.
- They can listen.
- They didn't have to share if they didn't want to share.
- It was welcome to all people who could
- respect confidentialities.
- And we agreed that it was going to be for members
- of the congregation and that we would not
- publicize in the Empty Closet, in the city newspaper,
- or the Democratic and Chronicle.
- But we would give a status report to session.
- Session had to hear how we're doing.
- Because we knew that session wanted to be sure
- things are working OK.
- But we knew they needed to understand people's stories,
- and find out what's going on.
- And you've got ten to fifteen people coming to these meetings
- twice a month, and that's the kind of support
- that they're getting.
- So it was a brilliant design.
- And they agreed to that compromise of just
- within the congregation.
- That group is still meeting--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Isn't that great?
- RALPH CARTER: --since the eighties.
- And it's called Born This Way now.
- And they've continued to meet twice a month,
- through the mid-eighties to now.
- So it's been a quite a long time.
- There have been nuns who have come,
- who've found out about the group.
- There have been African Americans who've come.
- A lot of different-- there was a Mormon who came to the group
- for support.
- Very interesting-- a wide variety of people,
- not just members of the congregation.
- Later, with all the education over the six-year period--
- because it went from, like, '81 to '87.
- That's when the church finally became a More Light church.
- The ad hoc committee organized educational forums
- on various topics, on homosexuality.
- And then it becomes time, well, shall we--
- we've studied it for six years.
- So the session needs to vote, whether or not
- it's going to do this.
- And so one of the last sessions, that whole question arose.
- OK, we've had this--
- we would do, like, three-week series.
- Bring in people from the divinity school,
- bring in people from all over, hear people's stories
- and all that.
- And so there was that question, should we
- become a More Light church?
- And then what happened was, there
- was this whole silence among older members.
- Let's see, what's her name?
- Hey Van-- who was the pastor of Third Church before Gene Bay?
- He'd been there for a long, long, long, long time?
- And his son became the mayor of Indianapolis.
- VAN: (unintelligible) two brothers.
- RALPH CARTER: Yeah, two brothers.
- And the last name was similar to the one
- that visited your mom, a good friend of your moms.
- Oh gosh, what was his name?
- Well, his widow-- she was maybe in her eighties at the time--
- who didn't say much, because she was very highly regarded.
- And she was a humble woman.
- She was pretty quiet, sort of like the way
- a lot of leaders in Rochester are.
- They're not garish, boisterous, throwing their weight around.
- They are more kind of quiet, which is something
- I really like about Rochester.
- And she stood up.
- The place is like, wow, this woman never ever
- gets up to speak.
- And then she says, "We've been talking about this for years
- now, and with a lot of angst--
- about should we, or should we not."
- And she pointed to a picture of Lillian Alexander--
- it was on the wall in the hall.
- And says, "You remember Lillian Alexander in the 1950s?
- She was an elder in this church.
- And she thought it was completely
- unfair for our church to have all of these gifted women that
- are so deeply spiritual, and have wonderful gifts to share
- with the church, and they're not allowed to be pastors--
- not allowed to be a clergy.
- That's wrong.
- And this church, this congregation--
- Third Presbyterian Church-- the session of this church
- approved the overture that went to the presbytery of Genesee
- Valley, that then went to the national church
- to authorize the ordination of women
- as clergy in the denomination.
- And it failed the first time around.
- And then you brought it back two years later, and it passed.
- Now, when we look back on it fifty years later,
- it's a wonderful thing.
- But if you're living at the time, we were petrified--
- what are we doing?
- But we knew it was the right thing to do.
- And this issue is the issue of this day--
- shall we accept the remarkable gifts of gay and lesbian people
- who are called to serve the church in this way?
- Or shall we deny them?
- I think we have our answer.
- We've done it before, we should do it again.
- And we're a church that's called to lead, not follow."
- And she sat down.
- And it was like, well, it's a done deal now.
- (Laughs)
- How could you say no?
- Because you had this revered octogenarian,
- whose husband was, I'd say, somewhat conservative--
- definitely like a tall steeple pastor kind of a guy.
- You know, a lot of power, but a good heart.
- And his wife said, "This is the issue of our day,
- we need to address it."
- I mean, ultimately, the big issue in my mind
- is, who are we to thwart who God calls?
- God's the one who does the calling.
- God is the one who gifts people with gifts.
- The question is, are we going to get in God's way,
- or are we going to accept what God has in mind?
- And so, how arrogant to deliberately deny gifts
- that the community has been given?
- So it passed.
- And so here's a congregation of fifteen hundred--
- I think it's the second largest Presbyterian
- Church in New York state.
- It changed the map regarding the debate, ultimately.
- Because then there were other congregations, like Oak Park--
- First United Church of Oak Park in Illinois.
- Big church, very wealthy congregation--
- they became a More Light church.
- So there were a number of congregations
- around the country--
- First Presbyterian church of Palo Alto,
- California became a More Light church--
- a number of congregations that became More Light churches.
- And there are now, like, about two hundred of them.
- But Third Church was--
- I think it was the twentieth or twenty-third
- to become a More Light church.
- People were shocked in the presbytery.
- How could this congregation--
- And right after that More Light statement,
- then Gene Bay is called.
- Bill Young retires.
- Pat Youngdahl moves.
- Who was the redhead, Van?
- VAN: (unintelligible).
- RALPH CARTER: Pamela Harvey.
- VAN: Pamela Harvey.
- RALPH CARTER: she moves to New Rochelle.
- So we had a complete turnover of the staff within six months
- or so of the statement.
- There were five congregations that challenged us.
- And I think it actually turned out
- to be the best thing that ever happened to that church,
- was to have been challenged.
- Because they weren't used to being challenged.
- They were used to running the show.
- But you've got Webster, Parkminster, which is very,
- Brighton--
- just down the street, just down East Avenue, a mile
- and a half or whatever from Third Church
- was Brighton Church.
- Brighton Church challenged.
- And then also, Scottsville Church.
- There were five congregations that
- brought a court case against Third Church
- for exercising its conscience.
- When there's the mantra in the Presbyterian church,
- God alone is Lord of the conscience.
- Which is this independent streak--
- the Scottish independent mindset--
- you don't tell us what to do kind of a thing.
- So people in Third Church were--
- how dare they?
- How dare these people challenge it?
- So people who were on the fence, who
- didn't like the idea of our becoming a More Light church,
- rallied.
- This a very interesting thing.
- When you're under attack from outside, you corral the wagons.
- And so it became, well, this is important.
- We've done it-- the session.
- We talked about it for six years.
- This is not a secret.
- There's been no wool pulled over anybody's eyes.
- It was thoroughly vetted, thoroughly talked about.
- If people didn't talk about it, it
- was their own decision not to talk about it,
- because it was-- certainly a lot of opportunities.
- And we just happened to have Jim Moore, and a couple of people.
- Jim was the President of the New York State Bar Association.
- You know, Harter Secrest and Emery
- and a number of different law firms in town,
- well represented in the congregation.
- So that was what started Jim Moore's, actually.
- We ended up going all the way to the national.
- It went to presbytery, it went to senate,
- then went to national.
- And then, Jim Moore eventually became
- one of the legal council supporting
- Janie Spahr in her court case--
- several of hers.
- As was Peter Odlefson, another lawyer.
- He was a member of Third Church, and then
- became a member of Downtown.
- And what was also very interesting,
- was that when Brighton Church joined this group of five
- congregations challenging Third, there were members
- of their--how many members would you say, from Brighton Church?
- Van then decided to join me at Third Church.
- Because we had said, let's give Third Church a chance.
- If they don't become a More Light church,
- then I'll transfer my membership to Calvary Saint Andrews.
- (Van speaking in background) So Van moved his membership.
- But in your membership class, there
- were several people from the Brighton Church
- who transferred their membership to Third Church.
- Because they thought it was completely
- inappropriate for one congregation
- to meddle in the affairs of another congregation.
- EVELYN BAILEY: How did the lawsuits turn out?
- Or were they withdrawn?
- RALPH CARTER: God alone is Lord of the conscience.
- That won the day.
- So there was no one ordained at that point.
- You were just making a statement.
- So that's all they had to go on.
- Can you, or can you not say something
- that is on its surface contrary to what
- the national church has said?
- And we said, yes, you can, because God alone
- is Lord of the conscience.
- And we always have to be open to the Holy Spirit.
- So you have to tread on that ground very carefully.
- So the Presbyterians take that--
- are pretty serious about that.
- Always leaving the door-- there's
- always a little bit of doubt that you know
- or I know the mind of Christ, or mind of God.
- Because God is bigger than all of us.
- We've got a little prism that we understand the world,
- understand the universe.
- But we're just a small piece of this whole big thing.
- And so we can't pretend-- we can't
- be so arrogant to know the mind of God.
- We may think we know part of it, but we don't know all of it.
- It's like welcoming the stranger in your midst.
- We're called to welcome the stranger.
- So then the whole thing for me was, I'm really excited.
- I was asked to be on the nominating
- committee for the congregation.
- And then, I was asked to serve in a lot
- of different non-ordained capacities.
- And that went on for about five years.
- And you know, meanwhile I was being promoted at work.
- And you know, I got a lot of energy.
- I got a lot of things to share.
- People saying-- they were like, "Oh, can we, or should we,
- I don't know."
- Then, they eventually asked, would you serve as an elder?
- And so I said, yes.
- At the time I was on the board of trustees.
- And there was a group that was supporting me.
- And they were really concerned that my nomination
- might be challenged at the congregation meeting hearing
- the report from the nominating committee, that my nomination
- might be challenged.
- And so they were prepared to get up and speak on my behalf.
- So they had the congregation meeting,
- and there was no challenge.
- But people didn't know-- well, where's Ralph,
- because I wasn't at the meeting.
- I had intended to be at the meeting.
- But it was my morning to--
- at the end of the service was when they had the congregation
- meeting.
- And I was upstairs counting the collection
- with another trustee.
- Because everybody was petrified, something happened to Ralph.
- Where's Ralph?
- Because they were asking him to stand up,
- and I was upstairs doing my trustee duties.
- And so I was not the first gay person to serve on session,
- but I was the first openly gay person.
- And it wasn't challenged.
- The congregation wasn't challenged for having done it.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Are you still an elder?
- RALPH CARTER: Yeah, once you're ordained,
- you're always ordained.
- But you only serve, on the session, three year terms,
- up to six--
- maybe two terms of three years each.
- What is interesting with that congregation,
- and there are a number of them like that
- where when they ordain people as elders or deacons,
- the congregation ordains for ruling elders and deacons.
- At the presbytery level is where clergy, teaching elders
- are ordained.
- So when people are being ordained for service
- within the congregation, they have what
- they call a laying on of hands.
- It's a very special time.
- And they invite everybody in the congregation
- who is ordained to get up.
- And what is a testament to that congregation
- is that probably about half of the congregation
- gets up and lays hands on the person in front of them.
- And then ultimately, the people who are being ordained.
- It's a very moving experience.
- It's a testimony to the notion of shared leadership.
- And you're not recycling the same people all the time.
- But you're recognizing gifts, and you want everyone's voice
- to be heard, ultimately, in the life of the congregation.
- So it's pretty interesting.
- EVELYN BAILEY: So, Ralph, you are no longer an elder?
- RALPH CARTER: I am an elder, not in session.
- You're always an elder.
- I've also been a deacon, and I've been a trustee.
- And I've been on almost every committee, at one
- time or another, in the church.
- EVELYN BAILEY: What is there left?
- What is there left for you to become in this church?
- RALPH CARTER: I mean, I'm in my fifties now.
- And you know, I'm getting to be one of the older
- members of the congregation.
- VAN: (unintelligible) she was getting married to Emily
- and there was a big applause and everything.
- You see the church getting more and more accepting.
- RALPH CARTER: So the big topic right
- now, is not only marriage in the Presbyterian Church.
- The congregation is completely for it,
- because they have gay members.
- They have lesbian members.
- And they have transgender members.
- We've done a lot of education about gender identity
- over the years.
- And I'm so proud that people are so
- comfortable talking about it.
- They've actually had questions and answers
- about the particulars of what happens when one transitions
- one's gender in terms of the physical, hormonal,
- what all happens.
- And right in Sunday school.
- It's an amazing thing.
- What a great thing, that there can
- be a space where people can actually be comfortable enough
- to talk openly about what does this all mean, and ask.
- So there's that.
- We've had a number of educational things
- about the transgender experience.
- And what is it like, and why it's
- important to be able to live on the outside what
- you feel on the inside.
- And also, about providing opportunities
- for youth and children-- age-appropriate
- education for children.
- We've had that as well--
- and for parents, ongoing.
- Right now, we have a More Light committee,
- that's a committee of session.
- So someone who is going to the governing body meetings
- every month leads the committee.
- And each committee in the church has its role to play.
- We hold them accountable.
- What are you doing to implement our commitment
- to being a welcoming and inclusive congregation?
- So the membership committee--
- what are you doing?
- Outreach-- we do advertising.
- We suggested that they advertise in the Empty Closet.
- And so they do.
- And then for the youth committee--
- what are you doing to support?
- Helping kids to be a part of the solution,
- and not be part of the problem on bullying in schools.
- So those kinds of things.
- And we now have one--
- a high-schooler, a kid who's come out.
- He's a youth elder. (Van speaking in background)
- A smart kid, and he's come out, and he's joined our committee.
- So it's education to do.
- And you always have to go back and do the 101.
- Every three years, we have a retreat
- for the governing body--
- all the deacons who are doing a lot of pastoral care.
- There are a number of couples with children.
- They know enough about what it means
- to be gay or lesbian person.
- And that they have the language, so it's
- not a big mystery to them.
- And that they know who they can talk to get answers
- to questions that they have.
- So deacons and trustees--
- so the use of the building--
- community groups and so forth.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Wow, that's a lot.
- RALPH CARTER: But you know, I think
- underlying it was trusting that with enough information--
- and then, relationship building--
- that people will ultimately do the right thing,
- or work in that direction.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yes, trust is more than significant.
- It's the underpinnings of all community relationships.
- And what the community can do, and what it cannot do,
- because of the trust within it.
- I don't think churches are open unless their congregations
- individually are open.
- You cannot be welcoming unless you have men and women involved
- who not only welcome the diversity, and are inclusive,
- but have also welcomed themselves into that
- experience.
- Because unless you own who you are,
- and are comfortable with who you are,
- you cannot be comfortable with someone else.
- That gets communicated.
- Unspoken, unsaid, but it gets communicated.
- I know if I'm sitting next to, or opposite someone who
- is not comfortable with me.
- And when I sense that, not only does my radar go up,
- but my tone changes.
- And I adapt to that uncomfortableness.
- Not denial of myself, but in the effort
- to make the other comfortable.
- Then, you can talk.
- Then, you can have a dialogue that's honest.
- Then, you can say what really is in your heart,
- and what really is in your mind--
- without fear of rejection, without fear of being
- dismissed and disrespected.
- Without that, you can't you can't come together as people.
- That's what's wrong, in terms of relationships
- with young people.
- The differences that they perceive
- exonerate any sense of trust or connectedness
- that they might have with any of their peers that are different.
- I get to know you, the differences disappear.
- I don't get to know you, guess what?
- You've got pink ears, and yellow eyes, and a purple tail.
- And I don't like that.
- And therefore, I don't like you.
- RALPH CARTER: Right.
- Yeah.
- If you're not comfortable in your own skin,
- people pick up on that.
- And you know, there's, like, a distance that's there.
- And they may or may not know how or be
- willing to create a bridge.
- But if you're comfortable in your own skin--
- so part of the going out and speaking--
- then I got into going out on speaking engagements.
- So we'd have the whole roadshow, where we had--
- I think it was three people or four people.
- We always had at least three people.
- And we had different roles.
- And we went-- (Recording ends)