Audio Interview, Robert Harris, May 18, 2012

ROBERT HARRIS: And over the years

we see each other here and there.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah, well, we're here talking to Bob Harris,

right?

ROBERT HARRIS: Yep.

EVELYN BAILEY: About his early years in Rochester.

ROBERT HARRIS: What he remembers of them. (Laughter)

EVELYN BAILEY: Early years in New York City,

because I understand you were at Stonewall.

ROBERT HARRIS: I was at Stonewall that weekend, yes.

EVELYN BAILEY: Were you actually in the bar when--

ROBERT HARRIS: The next--

well, OK, not the night of, but the night after we

went into the bar.

And I mean the place was a shambles.

EVELYN BAILEY: What-- did you just go into the bar

because that's what you going to do, or did you hear?

ROBERT HARRIS: We had heard and we--

I-- OK, four friends and I drove down to New York

in a convertible--

I was so sunburnt--

to visit mutual friends down there.

And they-- it's all-- as I said, I was really

sunburnt that one day.

We had-- we heard something had gone on at Stonewall.

And one of the guys from New York said, "Well,

let's go down.

Let's go to Stonewall."

And me being me, "OK."

We went.

And as we're going down, is it Christopher Street?

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

ROBERT HARRIS: As we're walking down Christopher Street,

the four of us or five of us-- there was five of us by this

time, maybe six--

we could hear hubbub, to do, going on.

And someone in a doorway grabbed ahold of me and said,

"You might want to step into the doorway, into this doorway."

And I'm like, (mumbles).

And I'm peering out of this doorway

trying to track down my friends, because we

had gotten separated.

Up there in front of a Stonewall coming down

the street is this whole line of gay men and women

doing sort of a kick line routine down the street,

as I recall.

And then I heard noise to my left.

And I looked, and here's a whole line of the cops coming up

the street.

And I'm thinking, what the hell?

You know, I mean, I'm a little country boy.

What's this all about?

And I eventually stepped out of the doorway,

because I could see where my friends were.

And I thought, well, I'll just skip across the street

and join them.

And I was stopped by a cop, who told me

I couldn't cross the street.

And I said, "But my friends are over there."

"I don't care, you can't cross the street."

I said, "But I don't know my way around New York City."

"You can't cross the street," and he wrapped me

in the shoulder with his billy club.

I was like, what?

So I eventually did connect up with my friends,

who were standing on a street corner a block or so away.

And they were standing there looking for me.

"Where's Bobby?

Where's Bobby?

I don't know.

Wasn't he with you?

I thought he was with you."

That routine, you know?

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

ROBERT HARRIS: And they were standing

there being orbited by this very tall, yeah, on rollerskates

besides, black drag queen, who was just skating around them

and chattering away.

And so-- I finally caught up to them and I said,

"I don't know about anybody else, but I want a drink now."

So we went to a different bar, and had a drink.

Then the following night, we went back down.

And that's when I believe we went into Stonewall.

It was open, but I mean it was obviously had been trashed

and mirrors were broken.

And you could smell liquor that had been--

bottles had been broken and so on.

And, I mean, there wasn't anything going on.

There wasn't a bartender--

I don't think there was the bartender working

at that point.

But we just-- you know, we peered in and left.

And, I mean, it was just--

that was the last time I was ever in New York City.

But it was a very strange experience,

because I was gay obviously.

I mean, I was born gay, and had gone

through the family finding out.

And that was a whole scene with my mother and father.

And even though they had met friends of mine

here in Rochester, but at the same time

they had met girls that I was going out with.

I was in that stage with what do I want?

Even though I knew what I wanted, but what do I want?

Because back in the late 50s, early 60s the idea of being

a homosexual-- particularly from a small town, you know,

Oneonta, New York was just--

I mean it was just not done.

And I had reconciled myself to the fact

and thought, well, yeah this is--

I am gay.

And I can deal with it my own self.

So-- but still going to New York City--

even though I was familiar with the gay life

here in Rochester a little bit-- but New York City was,

I mean, a whole different animal.

(Laughs) I mean--

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

ROBERT HARRIS: And so that's what it was.

EVELYN BAILEY: Was there--

did you observe as these two lines--

ROBERT HARRIS: Converged.

EVELYN BAILEY: Converged?

ROBERT HARRIS: I did not see any--

if you're asking did I see any overt violence or anything, no,

I didn't.

The group of gay people that was coming down the street

were singing, whatever they were singing.

I can't remember.

And the cops were in riot gear, though.

But I was so verklempt the only thing I wanted to do

was get to my friends, you know, my own little comfort zone.

Because I just--

I didn't really realize until a day or two

even afterward that-- all that had transpired.

And, of course, I did know that Judy Garland died.

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

ROBERT HARRIS: And that was like emblazoned in the sky.

But as far as a police raid on a gay establishment,

I had never experienced anything like that

here in Rochester, even though I had gone

to Martha's on Stone Street.

And, of course, the cops every now and then would

come in there.

And Martha would dutifully unplug the jukebox.

And anybody that was dancing would stop.

And she'd talk to the cops, and there'd

be this handshake thing going on, and the cops would leave.

EVELYN BAILEY: More than handshake.

ROBERT HARRIS: Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

Money was changing hands.

EVELYN BAILEY: Of course.

ROBERT HARRIS: But the only others-- let's see the--

well, Martha's was a gay bar.

I officially came out, I suppose, in a bar

at Bullwinkles.

EVELYN BAILEY: Bullwinkles.

ROBERT HARRIS: Bullwinkles, which

used to be a very mixed crowd.

And one year I had gone home.

I was teaching at this time, and I had gone home

for Christmas vacation.

And drove back to Rochester a day earlier

than my apartment mate was going to be there,

with the idea that I was going to go to Bullwinkles.

I mean, I wanted to go.

I had heard about Bullwinkles.

So-- and I had been in there.

I mean, that used to be--I taught in Greece.

Friday nights, teachers, we all gathered at Bullwinkles

on Friday nights.

You know, and party and hooted and sang and carried on.

And so-- and I was aware of what the bar area was like.

So I waltzed in there one night all gussied up.

KEVIN INDOVINO: For Bullwinkles?

ROBERT HARRIS: Really.

Well, yeah.

Met, was picked up by a guy, actually,

which was a new and interesting experience.

And I--

KEVIN INDOVINO: Are we talking late 60s, 70s?

ROBERT HARRIS: OK, let's see, I--

KEVIN INDOVINO: Was this before or after New York?

ROBERT HARRIS: This was before.

That was before, yeah.

And because that's when I started.

After Bullwinkles, Martha's, and so on,

and led a sort of freelance life.

But by the time I was in New York,

I was partnered with somebody, who's now dead.

In fact, of the four of us that went down to New York,

two are dead.

One of them was one of the first people

that I know of in Rochester that died of AIDS,

and that was Jimmy Pinell.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

Now what year was--

ROBERT HARRIS: OK, let's see.

I would have been about twenty-six,

and I'm going to be next month seventy-three.

So--

EVELYN BAILEY: Forty seven years ago.

ROBERT HARRIS: Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: So what does that put us back at, '66?

ROBERT HARRIS: Well, Stonewall was what year?

KEVIN INDOVINO: '69

ROBERT HARRIS: '69.

OK, yeah.

So--

KEVIN INDOVINO: Forty seven years ago would be '65/'66.

ROBERT HARRIS: Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

So you were teaching at that point in--

ROBERT HARRIS: I was teaching at Greece, Greece Arcadia.

EVELYN BAILEY: But you grew up in Oneonta.

ROBERT HARRIS: I grew up in Oneonta.

And went to-- did my undergrad work at Albany.

EVELYN BAILEY: OK.

And in Oneonta there was not really any recognition or--

not by you, but in terms of was there

a community, a gay community?

ROBERT HARRIS: No.

No.

Even though Oneonta at the time--

I mean, there are two colleges in Oneonta, there's Heartwick

and there's Oneonta State.

And-- but back then gay, you just didn't know from gay.

I mean, there were.

KEVIN INDOVINO: No rumors about a particular bar?

ROBERT HARRIS: Well, I mean there were always

sort of rumors.

You know, as my dear sweet departed mother--

and she was-- her--

my mother would never-- even after--

my mom and dad found out that I was gay and for two weeks,

I did not exist for them.

And this happened in Provincetown, of all places.

But my mother would never say the word gay or homosexual.

It would be, well, you know, he's peculiar.

I loved that, he's peculiar.

Yes, Bobby is peculiar.

So--

EVELYN BAILEY: And what about in Albany,

when you went to college?

ROBERT HARRIS: In Albany is when I--

yeah, it was obvious that there were gay people there

in Albany.

And the man that I am living with now, that's when we met.

We were lovers in college, and lived together for a while

after college.

Then I ran away from the situation,

because I was saying to myself I'm not gay.

And we were living down near Binghamton,

we both taught down in that area.

And I moved to Rochester, because our third roommate

from college--

we shared an apartment-- was already teaching up here.

And said-- at that time Greece Arcadia

was expanding to a four year high school,

and they needed an English teacher.

And they needed somebody that would develop a drama program.

And I somehow fit the bill.

So I moved up here, and started teaching at Greece Arcadia.

Then Andy finally moved up to Rochester.

And he was very distraught.

He was very upset with me.

He fell in love with me and--

you know even before.

But he came to Rochester because there was

teaching positions for here--

for him up here, too.

And for about two years when he lived in Rochester,

if he saw me out in public he would just--

EVELYN BAILEY: Ignore you?

ROBERT HARRIS: Yeah, ignore me.

And that finally reconciled itself.

So-- and since, I mean, we've lived together now for decades.

But we're housemates, that's all we've been.

He's had relationships.

I've had relationships I've had more relationships than he

has had, but we still we live in this big old house.

That's why we come together, because it's a big old house.

We've got three floors.

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

ROBERT HARRIS: And neither one of us

are sexually partnered with anyone,

I haven't been for quite a while.

Because the last relationship I had when that broke up,

I was devastated.

Just I totally wiped out and decided--

well, when it first broke up I thought, OK, fine.

I'll play the whore of Babylon on the Genesee.

And I did that for a while, then I got bored with that actually.

And that's when AIDS started rearing its ugly head.

And I thought, you know, I had never--

I had never practice safe sex.

And more and more people that I knew were dying.

And I just thought, I don't want to deal with this in that way.

So I became celibate.

And, I mean, I have been for years now.

It's a way of life that I sort of accept.

I mean--

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

ROBERT HARRIS: There is porn, so--

(laughs) But it's been--

I don't regret anything that I did in my life, actually.

You know, there are times--

I have said this to many people--

that depending on whether you believe in God or not,

I'm living proof that whoever it is does protect fools.

Because I mean, I think back.

I mean, I was bookstores, baths, parks.

EVELYN BAILEY: Everywhere.

ROBERT HARRIS: Yeah.

KEVIN INDOVINO: I want to talk a little bit still about--

stay with the-- excuse me--

stay with some of those early years.

You know, those mid to late 60s and you're

going to Martha's and wherever.

What was the gay scene in Rochester like?

I mean, other than just the bar scene?

I mean, what were the conversations

that people were having?

ROBERT HARRIS: Oh, well, OK there was the bar scene.

And I became aware of-- fairly early on, I don't know why I

became aware of it or how I became aware of it--

that the people that we saw in the bars--

and you saw the same people all the time--

were only the tip of the iceberg.

That there was a big gay community in Rochester.

But it was a very--

I don't want to say cliquish.

But I mean there were groups that, you know,

congregated together and were friends.

And I managed to get connected up with some of these people.

And, I mean, very talented people.

They-- many of them influenced my whole way of thinking.

I mean, you think back to this was--

Mayor Barry was not mayor then, or was he still mayor then--

but he was gay.

And he was partnered with a man all of--

you know, but it was still the gay community knew about it.

And I'm sure the straight community knew about it,

but it wasn't--

EVELYN BAILEY: It wasn't talked about.

ROBERT HARRIS: It wasn't talked about.

And yet, the mayor and the mayoress

would have these gala parties at their home.

They lived I think on Mount Hope.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.

ROBERT HARRIS: And they also had a place

down near Honeyoye Lake, a cabin getaway place.

And I was at parties there.

You know, and there was this whole group of a lot of older--

well, to me there were older day-- well,

they were at the time, they were older--

of gay men that had developed a whole life for themselves.

And they lived a very dual existence.

And I think a lot of us did when we were younger,

lived a dual existence.

It was a very sort of coded existence.

There were bars that we could go to.

There was always Provincetown that you could go to,

and I mean, Fire Island.

I never went to Fire Island, but I knew of Fire Island.

But we lived in a very insular life.

We lived a double life, really.

Even though when I was teaching though-- when I finally

finished teaching I was teaching in Penfield, again

English and drama.

And I-- my students knew I was gay,

but it was just not anything.

I think-- it wasn't like I went to class in drag or anything

like that.

It's just that the younger people were picking up

on things more, because I guess it was becoming more known.

And there were--

I know there were gay kids that--

I know I taught gay kids.

But we never touched on that gayness.

KEVIN INDOVINO: You couldn't really.

ROBERT HARRIS: No, you couldn't.

EVELYN BAILEY: No.

ROBERT HARRIS: No, you couldn't.

No.

And, I mean, today I get-- it's the kids that I

work with at Nathan's on Park Avenue, they all know I'm gay.

One of them-- well Brianne I guess bisexual.

She was partnered with a woman when I first started--

when she first started working there and I was there.

And now she's been going out with the guy,

because she and her partner broke up.

But Walter, the original Nathan, he was gay.

Even though he was married and had two sons,

the sons eventually took over the business when Walt died.

It's just over the years, you know,

things have changed so much.

And at this point in my life, I am very comfortable being gay.

I have no problem with it.

If somebody confronts me--

I mean, I'm not going to start a fight or anything--

but if someone confronts me I just, you know, I look at them

I say, I'm not hurting you.

I'm not doing anything to harm you or your way of life.

I'm not saying anything about it, you know.

I'm happy with my way of life.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Still staying with those early years,

you know, when you were at those parties

or you were finding that, as you called it,

the tip of the iceberg.

You know, the other section that weren't at the bars

or whatever.

What were the conversations like?

Was there talk about, geez, you know, we

have to start standing up for our rights?

was there any activism?

ROBERT HARRIS: Not really.

Not really, not that I heard.

I mean, it was all theatre, music, art.

Although one couple, Tim and Land--

who were now both deceased--

and we're very--

I suppose they were my gay parents.

KEVIN INDOVINO: That's recording,

so you don't want to play with it.

BOBBY HARRIS: Oh, I'm sorry.

I supposed they were my gay parents.

And they many, many years ago had a commitment ceremony.

And some of us that knew them just couldn't-- you know,

why are they doing this?

What does-- why?

I mean this was before it was--

it just struck us as so very odd.

And, I mean, they were definitely

in the vanguard at that point.

So--

EVELYN BAILEY: How did you find out

about these parties or these social events?

BOBBY HARRIS: Again, the people that I knew,

the people that I ran into and ended up spending time

with, they were a big entertaining group,

in all senses of the word.

I mean, they loved to entertain.

They did it very well.

And, you know, you got invited, and so you went.

EVELYN BAILEY: Did-- were you kind of involved in that group

because you were in theater, because you were a teacher?

BOBBY HARRIS: No, I don't think that was it.

I don't really know.

I mean, I was new in Rochester to them.

And I was this blonde, curly headed, blue eyed boy--

or a young man--

and then-- I mean, that eventually

evolved into the whole hippie thing.

And that was one of my nicknames was Hippy,

because I used to get my hair cut once a year on my birthday.

And I had a big blonde afro, a big, natural blonde afro.

(Laughter) Now I don't have an hair.

But, let's see--

EVELYN BAILEY: You you said that Mayor--

BOBBY HARRIS: Barry.

EVELYN BAILEY: --Barry was gay, and everyone knew he was gay.

BOBBY HARRIS: Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: How?

BOBBY HARRIS: How did they know?

EVELYN BAILEY: How did they know?

BOBBY HARRIS: I don't know.

I mean, here was a man who was living with another man.

And they were both, at this point in their lives,

they were late, middle-aged I would think.

And the mayor, Mayor Barry was--

as I recall-- a very distinguished looking man.

Sort of craggy faced, as I remember.

A wonderful man to talk to, very kind and gentle.

And the man he lived with was very feminine really.

I mean, it was-- if you saw the two of them together,

you automatically went, top, bottom.

EVELYN BAILEY: OK.

So they would hold parties certainly.

And--

BOBBY HARRIS: There would be--

EVELYN BAILEY: Would the people who came to those parties--

BOBBY HARRIS: There would be straight people there.

EVELYN BAILEY: --professionals?

BOBBY HARRIS: Yes.

And there would be straight people there.

But they would be the lawyers, doctors, more educated,

more cosmopolitan.

People that had traveled, and so had been exposed to other--

well, European society and so on,

where apparently things were more open or more accepting.

And so I never knew of any animosity or anything.

Although, we were always, always careful, though.

EVELYN BAILEY: How so?

BOBBY HARRIS: I wasn't as open then out

in public as I will be-- as I am now.

Because I don't care.

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

BOBBY HARRIS: But I can remember a few times.

One time I was living on Strathallan

in the building that got torn down for the Strathallan Hotel.

In fact, all of us that lived in that building--

there were apartments in this big old house--

everybody in the house was gay.

And I would walk downtown, and it was not--

it didn't happen often--

but there would be occasions as I would be walking down

East Avenue that a car would go by with two

or three teenage boys in it, "Hey, faggot!"

And I can remember just tensing up thinking,

oh god, they're going to stop the car.

They're going to get out, and they're going to smack me.

They never did.

And I wouldn't respond to them, I just

kept walking right along.

Now, if somebody does that to me--

and it's happened a couple of times, you know--

some kid will walk or be driving by and say"Hey faggot,"

and I just go, "Thank you," just go on my goofy little way.

So--

EVELYN BAILEY: Well, you taught in Greece,

were there other teachers--

BOBBY HARRIS: Who were gay?

EVELYN BAILEY: --who you knew who were gay?

BOBBY HARRIS: There were other gay teachers there.

And I mean, everybody in the faculty knew I was gay.

They just knew.

I mean, I just assumed they knew.

But there was at least one other English teacher that was gay.

EVELYN BAILEY: And did you kind of form a little group

in order to--

BOBBY HARRIS: No.

We didn't have to.

We didn't.

The faculty in-- this is Penfield

primarily-- the faculty in Penfield,

there didn't seem to be any problem.

Or if there was a problem it wasn't anything

that they were overt--

to me they were not anti-gay or anything.

They-- God knows what they may have

said when I wasn't in the room.

But--

KEVIN INDOVINO: What years were you teaching at Greece?

BOBBY HARRIS: OK, let's see.

I came here-- let's see, I was twenty-six years old or so.

So that would have been, again, the late 60s.

I graduated from college in '62.

And I taught down near Binghamton for two-three years.

So '66/'67, '65/'66/'67.

And then I eventually went--

KEVIN INDOVINO: Penfield?

BOBBY HARRIS: Then I went to Penfield.

I was in Greece for I think--

let me think about the shows that I directed.

That's the way to do it.

Harvey.

I was in Greece for three years.

And then I went to Penfield.

See, I left teaching in '77, but I had taught fifteen years.

EVELYN BAILEY: In Penfield?

BOBBY HARRIS: Not in Penfield.

EVELYN BAILEY: Total.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Looks like Penfield

may have been like, what 1970?

BOBBY HARRIS: Yeah, because when I first went to Penfield

I taught at Denonville, which was a junior high school.

And then when they--

went it became a middle school I went up

to the senior high school and developed the drama program

there, also.

EVELYN BAILEY: And when did you retire?

BOBBY HARRIS: '77, from teaching I retired.

EVELYN BAILEY: Wow.

BOBBY HARRIS: I took a year's leave and never went back.

KEVIN INDOVINO: God, wish I could do that.

Well, then what?

CREW: Hello-hello.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Hello.

Oh, hi.

Do you know where any of the staff is from Gay Alliance?

EVELYN BAILEY: Where the what?

KEVIN INDOVINO: The staff.

CREW: Staff person.

EVELYN BAILEY: If they're not upstairs on the fourth floor,

they're on the fourth floor.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Fourth or--

either fourth or fifth.

CREW: I've got a whole- but I can't seem to find them,

and they're not answering the phone.

I've got a whole bunch of food in the car for the prom

tonight.

Can you help me find them?

EVELYN BAILEY: Where are you?

Where is your car?

CREW: In the back parking lot.

EVELYN BAILEY: If you bring the food in and bring it up

to the fourth floor, that's where they will have--

CREW: I need some help with that--

EVELYN BAILEY: --the food.

CREW: --that's why.

EVELYN BAILEY: Huh?

CREW: I need some help with that.

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, did you did you check with the fifth floor

though, the office up at the fifth floor?

CREW: Is the office on the fifth floor?

KEVIN INDOVINO: Office is on the fifth floor.

CREW: OK, so when I got off the elevator, turn right or left?

EVELYN BAILEY: And I don't think anyone is up there.

Was-- did you tell someone you were going to be coming?

CREW: I told them I was going to be coming in the afternoon,

but I didn't say what time.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.

Go check the fifth floor.

CREW: OK.

KEVIN INDOVINO: If nobody's there then

I'll come out and help you.

CREW: I appreciate it so much.

BOBBY HARRIS: I can.

CREW: Thank you.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

Thanks.

BOBBY HARRIS: Your question was Kevin?

KEVIN INDOVINO: After teaching?

BOBBY HARRIS: Oh, what have I done after?

Oh my God.

Well, for a year, couple of years,

I bummed around and did odd little things.

Then for a while I worked for Rochester Public Library.

I worked for Edwards Restaurant when they first

opened the one which was the Red Rooster down on East Main.

I worked for Rochester Museum and Science Center.

I worked for Arthur Vitosh.

I tended bar for a number of years at Avenue Pub on Monroe

Avenue, then I worked at Nathan's.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So in those years in your--

did your-- how has you gay life evolved over these-- well,

it would be like forty years now.

I mean, did you get involved in any activism,

get involved with any of the AIDS, HPA dinners or--

BOBBY HARRIS: Not specifically, no.

I know when they used to do the dining for dollars,

I one night hosted one of those.

Went to them all the time at other people's houses,

but my house mate and I hosted one one year.

As-- went to--

I went to the social functions, but, no, I

was never an activist per se.

No.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So then let's flip that question around then

maybe.

From your point of view, how have you seen the gay community

change over the past 40 years?

BOBBY HARRIS: The fact that it has become much more open.

Less fearful, definitely less fearful, from what I can see.

Accepted more, by particularly younger people.

And by younger people I'm being relative.

I don't think kids, twenties and so on,

are threatened that much by the idea of gay people.

Because very often I think it was just the idea of gayness

that--

at one time I think it was that if you hung around

with gay people you became gay, it rubbed off on you.

And I don't think that's that much--

the kids that I know that I work with,

it's not their attitude at all.

In fact, a number of the straight people

that I work with, a number of the straight guys I work with,

many of their friends are gay men.

And they prefer spending time with gay men.

They are not gay themselves, but they just-- they

enjoy being around gay men.

Because straight guys are straight.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

KEVIN INDOVINO: It's almost kind of flip flopped actually.

BOBBY HARRIS: Yes.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Now it's like if you don't have a gay friend

there's something wrong with you.

BOBBY HARRIS: Exactly.

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

BOBBY HARRIS: Exactly.

Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

What was your-- in-- let me switch a little bit

to your major, English.

Have you or did you or were you aware of how

much was written about gayness, homosexuality,

the gay lifestyle?

And has there been a change in how that has been portrayed

or described or communicated?

BOBBY HARRIS: In the earlier years

I wasn't really aware of gay literature as such.

Either through-- just because I wasn't aware

it was around or anything.

But, I mean, now it's--

there's so much gay literature.

And I think that has come about because of just the changes

in society and television and, you know,

Will and Grace and all of that.

You know, even though we something poo-poo that and say,

you're so Will and Grace.

But--

KEVIN INDOVINO: Opened a door.

BOBBY HARRIS: Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

BOBBY HARRIS: Oh, yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: So in gay society in the early,

or in the 50s and 60s and 70s, most people were closeted?

BOBBY HARRIS: Most people that I know we're closeted.

But, again, there was this whole social interaction

that went on amongst these people that

would be very closeted at work.

I mean, they worked at Kodak, or they were professionals

somewhere, and they were very closeted.

But you get them at somebody's house party, and oh my god.

EVELYN BAILEY: And so it was very much a quiet affair

versus a public statement?

BOBBY HARRIS: There were those.

There were those that were more public--

brave souls that they were-- because they put themselves

right out there on the line.

You know, if they were acting overtly

gay in a non-gay situation, there was definitely a chance

that they would be beat up.

And that existed.

And we were all aware of that, too.

And I think that was one reason that, for the most part,

we tended to divide ourselves.

You know, OK, I'll be this way with this group of people,

but I'll be my real self with this group of people.

EVELYN BAILEY: Come in.

CREW: You are the only living people.

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.

You guys just keep talking, I'll go help her.

CREW: I'm so sorry to interrupt.

I don't understand how there could be, like,

nobody in the office at all.

You don't have a cell phone number?

So where are we going to put this stuff that will be safe--

EVELYN BAILEY: The cathedral room.

CREW: It's all locked up.

KEVIN INDOVINO: The fourth floor cathedral room?

The cathedral room was locked up, too?

EVELYN BAILEY: That whole area?

KEVIN INDOVINO: The cathedral room shouldn't be locked.

CREW: Oh, well, maybe I just don't

know where I'm going, then.

Thank you so much.

I'm so sorry.

Do you have a wheely thing or anything?

EVELYN BAILEY: I mean, I get that the closet was

the place that people lived in the 50s and 60s and 70s.

And it is still, even, a place that people live today.

But what I'm also trying to get a sense of was

you mentioned a dual life.

Well, it seems to me there must have

been a dual life for the community, a closeted life

and a more public life.

BOBBY HARRIS: Oh, yes.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Can I borrow this?

Just between you and I, I don't know what kind of caterer

comes without a cart.

EVELYN BAILEY: There isn't a truck out there or something?

KEVIN INDOVINO: No, actually this--

it's all right.

I'll just use this.

EVELYN BAILEY: But it seems to me that there were certainly

bars out there.

And that was the visible part of the community.

And you observed, you already mentioned

you observed police coming in to Dick's, money changing hands

to protect quote unquote the clientele.

To not have the clientele be embarrassed

or put in a difficult position.

But Dick's wasn't the only bar.

BOBBY HARRIS: You know, let me think back.

Let's see there was Dick's and Bullwinkles.

EVELYN BAILEY: And Ma Martins.

BOBBY HARRIS: Bullwinkles, Ma Martins

wasn't in existence when I was going to the bars.

It had already closed.

EVELYN BAILEY: OK.

BOBBY HARRIS: Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: All right.

BOBBY HARRIS: Let's see, there was Dick's 43, Bullwinkles,

and I think at that time those were--

EVELYN BAILEY: The Red Carpet?

BOBBY HARRIS: The Red Carpet hadn't started up yet.

At one time the--

I only know of two early on.

And then-- I mean at one time there were

eleven gay bars in the city.

And that's in the more recent past.

And now we're down to--

I don't even know anymore, because I

don't go out that much.

EVELYN BAILEY: Two really.

BOBBY HARRIS: OK, well, so that would be

the Avenue Pub and the Forum.

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

BOBBY HARRIS: OK.

But, I mean, at one time there was the OK Corral.

There are some of those names I can't ever remember.

Of course Rosie's.

EVELYN BAILEY: The Lyceum?

BOBBY HARRIS: No, I don't know that.

But Rosie's which is now the Bug Jar.

Jim's in its various incarnations.

Friar's in its various incarnations.

EVELYN BAILEY: Rathskeller.

BOBBY HARRIS: That's right.

That's-- yes, of course.

I forgot that one.

Right.

And then, oh gosh, what was--

EVELYN BAILEY: The Red Fez.

BOBBY HARRIS: Don't know that one.

EVELYN BAILEY: The Blue Chip?

BOBBY HARRIS: Oh, yeah.

OK, Blue Chip was in existence, that's right.

That would be the third one.

And that was-- the Blue Chip--

back when I first started going to the gay bars was--

how do I word it?

It was like, we're going to the Blue Chip type thing.

EVELYN BAILEY: The clientele?

BOBBY HARRIS: Sort of scary.

EVELYN BAILEY: OK.

BOBBY HARRIS: Actually it was sort of scary.

To me it was sort of scary.

EVELYN BAILEY: The clientele in each of these bars

was different?

BOBBY HARRIS: Yes, but there was overlapping.

Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: OK.

BOBBY HARRIS: Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: Was-- do you remember--

BOBBY HARRIS: Oh, wait, let's see.

When did Tara's open up?

That was several years ago.

EVELYN BAILEY: That was after--

BOBBY HARRIS: Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: --the Pub and the Forum.

BOBBY HARRIS: Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

Do remember where the Blue Chip was?

BOBBY HARRIS: Blue Chip was over on--

where the stadium is now, over in that Kodak area.

EVELYN BAILEY: OK.

BOBBY HARRIS: Brown Street or something like that.

Yeah.

It was a strange place.

Oh, there was also--

give it the right name--

the Riverview.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.

BOBBY HARRIS: Which was a woman's bar.

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

BOBBY HARRIS: Which we guys called the Riverbottom.

Went there a couple, that was scary.

That was a scary place.

EVELYN BAILEY: Why?

BOBBY HARRIS: Well, for one thing

the women that hung out there were the flannel shirt crowd.

They were diesel dykes is what they were,

or what we call diesel dykes.

And you did not see the--

well, I mean they may have been--

in their non-gay life they may have been professional women--

but not like you see professional gay women today.

EVELYN BAILEY: OK.

BOBBY HARRIS: And the one thing I

remember about the Riverview was they did have a men's room.

EVELYN BAILEY: OK.