Audio Interview, Susan Jordan, October 25, 2012

  • EVELYN BAILEY: Today is October 24?
  • SUSAN JORDAN: I think it's the 25th but I'm not sure.
  • Tuesday was the 23rd so today is the 25th.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And I'm here with Susan Jordan
  • going back in time.
  • Not to the very beginning of time but--
  • SUSAN JORDAN: It just feels that way.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: But back in time.
  • And so you began on the EC in 1979?
  • SUSAN JORDAN: No, I was hired in June 1989,
  • twenty-three years ago.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Where were we then?
  • SUSAN JORDAN: Well, we were in the Monroe Avenue Co-op,
  • up in the sunken room.
  • And then the little EC office was off the sunken room.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And when you began,
  • what was the production like?
  • I mean--
  • SUSAN JORDAN: Well, in those days, we used boards.
  • We had things printed out.
  • And we pasted everything in with paste.
  • So when we did lay out, we had the boards
  • and we would have printouts of the articles.
  • Then we would paste them onto the boards
  • and send that off to the printer.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Do you remember who the printer was?
  • SUSAN JORDAN: No, we had several different printers
  • over the years.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
  • SUSAN JORDAN: Off and on, we had AdNet but it's a long story.
  • And at one point, they didn't want
  • to print the gay paper anymore.
  • We had another printer.
  • And then we went back to them years later.
  • And so forth and so on.
  • And then we had several more printers years after that.
  • But anyway, yeah it was 1989.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And you had a light table?
  • SUSAN JORDAN: Yeah.
  • We had light tables.
  • So we had X-ACTO knives.
  • And we had benzene because of course,
  • if you wanted to salvage anything from last month's
  • issue like headings or whatever, you'd have
  • to scrape away the dead wax.
  • And you have to squirt benzene on it, which
  • of course was carcinogenic.
  • And you would hack away with your X-ACTO knife.
  • So around 1990, I thought it might be quite a good idea
  • to do this newfangled thing called desktop publishing.
  • And then much to my horror, I realized
  • that I could make things that are
  • just as homemade and sloppy with desktop publishing
  • as with wax and an X-ACTO knife.
  • So fortunately, I had some good volunteers.
  • Joan Baccino and Helen Mahaffey were the two people
  • that really knew how to do desktop publishing
  • and got me started doing that.
  • So that's been what we've been doing ever since.
  • No more wax.
  • No more X-ACTO knives.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: So with that, the files were digitized?
  • SUSAN JORDAN: Well, they became an electronic file basically
  • that you would put your-- when I started,
  • I had to do all the layout although I'm not
  • a graphic designer, but that was part of the job.
  • So I did lay out for the paper using an old program called
  • PageMaker.
  • And other people used Quark and so on.
  • Then gradually back in 2003 or so, we finally
  • hired a professional graphic designer
  • to do our layout, Don Alpert And he
  • started using InDesign, which is still
  • the software that we use today.
  • And our graphic designer is Jim Emerson who's really
  • one of the top professionals.
  • We're very fortunate that he's basically
  • volunteering to work with us.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Over the course of the first ten years,
  • from 1989 to 1999, we went from the Co-op to Atlantic Avenue.
  • SUSAN JORDAN: Right.
  • Elton and Atlantic.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And so then, you had your own office
  • and you didn't have the light table--
  • SUSAN JORDAN: I had, we still had the light table around
  • that we didn't use it that much.
  • And basically at first, I had two rooms.
  • I had a two room office with like four windows, four or five
  • windows or something.
  • And then gradually my second office,
  • which was our production room, got taken over
  • as the office for our new executive director.
  • So then I had a one room office.
  • Then we move over here to the auditorium theater,
  • I now have a cubicle.
  • So I'm sort of downwardly mobile, I guess.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: I know it's not--
  • you have covered a lot of news.
  • I mean, I can't even imagine thinking
  • about ten years of news but--
  • SUSAN JORDAN: Fortunately I've forgotten a lot of it.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: In that time, is there one or two news stories
  • about the gay community that really have grabbed your heart
  • and soul and catapulted you into an editorial stance
  • of whatever?
  • SUSAN JORDAN: Well, there have been a lot.
  • I mean every story does that in a sense.
  • It's a story about a kid who's being harassed at school.
  • The story about this, for instance,
  • Lance Neve who was gay bashed in a bar in Spencerport.
  • Every story can catapult you into a state
  • of rage or political commitment or whatever it is.
  • I think maybe the biggest stories we've covered,
  • one of the biggest stories, has been the whole trek
  • toward marriage equality.
  • Another has been the whole trek to get
  • SONDA of course the basic rights at all,
  • followed by marriage equality.
  • Another big issue has been bullying
  • and how we've developed our youth groups so that
  • hopefully we have prevented some kids from committing suicide.
  • I'd say that's pretty major.
  • But I wouldn't say there was one particular story that
  • made me politically committed because I was politically
  • committed long before I became editor of The Empty Closet.
  • But I have to say one of the most challenging things
  • was the first story I ever covered,
  • the first month I was hired.
  • And it was like, OK, my first issue is the August issue.
  • Nothing much happens in the summer.
  • I can kind of learn the ropes and just put out a basic thing.
  • And all of a sudden, a big news story
  • broke about Jackie Nudd and AIDS Rochester.
  • And without going into all that, all I can say,
  • it was a very heavy intense story.
  • I didn't know her.
  • I didn't know anyone involved.
  • And this was what I had to deal with my first day on the job.
  • At that point, I realized this wasn't going to be easy.
  • (laughter)
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Before you came to The Empty Closet,
  • you were involved with the New Women's Times.
  • SUSAN JORDAN: Yeah, I worked for the Feminist Review, which
  • was a review supplement to the New Women's Times which
  • is a women's newspaper published by grassroots women
  • here in Rochester from around, I guess, '76 or '77
  • till the whole thing collapsed around 1984.
  • And I also have done other newspaper work during my life,
  • but that was--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And when you were involved at the New Women's
  • Times, Maxine Sobel
  • SUSAN JORDAN: Yeah, it was founded by Maxine
  • and also Martha Brown and Karen Hagberg.
  • And I forget who else might have been in right at the beginning.
  • But I know Maxine was one of the main people
  • that actually started it, if not the main person.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Was Rosemary Cahill an editor of the--
  • SUSAN JORDAN: I don't think she was.
  • I don't remember her being around the new women's times
  • that much when I was, but she was
  • an editor of The Empty Closet.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Who were the photographers that
  • took most of the pictures in the early days?
  • Was that Ellen?
  • SUSAN JORDAN: Oh Ellen Nahafi took a lot of excellent photos.
  • And there were a lot of people, most of whom
  • I'd forgotten their names long ago, you know.
  • But I've also had a lot of help with lay out which
  • to me is equally important.
  • Ellen Nahafi and Joan Baccino That later in the '90s,
  • we had this wonderful guy who was a grad student, I believe,
  • or at least a student at RIT in newspaper production, Victor
  • Cardoso who redesigned the paper in a professional manner.
  • And he could not be an intern and get college credit for this
  • because his department head was anti-gay.
  • At least that's the impression I got then.
  • So but he did all this because he just-- he
  • wanted to contribute to the gay community.
  • He loved redesigning newspapers.
  • After that I had major help from Brad [Keyes?] who then moved
  • to Arizona.
  • But as far as photographers, the one
  • who really stands out over the years
  • is Doug Mesler He was a wonderful photographer
  • and around the late '90s.
  • I guess, he moved to New York City.
  • He's now got an international career and so on.
  • So it was good for him to move and to really
  • get a big time career.
  • He should not have stayed in little Rochester.
  • But it was a big loss to the paper.
  • But you know, there are a lot of excellent photographers around.
  • And we get them to volunteer for us.
  • But we've never had a paid staff, so it's not
  • like I can say, oh you didn't do what
  • you said you were going to do.
  • Well, you're fired.
  • No more paycheck.
  • It was like, oh, OK.
  • Don't call that volunteer again but, you know.
  • So it's a whole different world from a world where
  • you have a paid staff of reporters, photographers,
  • editorial assistants, researchers, and so on.
  • We've never had any of that of course.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
  • So, what's the major challenge in working with volunteers
  • versus a paid staff in getting the newspaper out every month?
  • SUSAN JORDAN: Well, sometimes volunteers are wonderful.
  • They meet the deadlines.
  • They do beautiful work.
  • They give their time and energy for free.
  • And then other times volunteers don't work out.
  • I had some photographers who would say, yes,
  • I'll do such and such an event.
  • And then instead of calling me and saying, well,
  • it turns out I can't do it, they just wouldn't do it.
  • And then I would say, where are the photos?
  • Well, we couldn't do it.
  • We lost your phone number.
  • Why didn't you call?
  • Well, we lost your phone number.
  • Well, the Gay Alliance is in the phone book.
  • You know, so, but you can't really do anything
  • because you can't fire them.
  • You can't deprive them of their paycheck.
  • You know, and if you say anything
  • then you're the bad guy.
  • And you get the attitude from them, you know.
  • So it's difficult working with volunteers
  • but I have to say, we've been blessed
  • by so many wonderful volunteers, who have really
  • done great work for us and who have been responsible
  • and met their deadlines and you know,
  • even though they didn't get a cent for it.
  • But I do console myself that at least they got by-lines
  • and they got a photo credit or something for their resume.
  • Not that I guess you could show a gay credit on your resume
  • to every company that you apply to or whatever.
  • But hopefully it's been useful.
  • And we've given a lot of young writers
  • their first byline and so on.
  • So how great that was for them, I don't know.
  • But at least there was something in it for them.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Have you-- has news
  • in The Empty Closet been picked up by a national news media?
  • SUSAN JORDAN: You mean articles that people--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Articles or--
  • SUSAN JORDAN: Well sometimes.
  • And sometimes we get requests to reprint things.
  • But then I just say whether it's a photo or a column
  • or whatever, you need to contact the reporter
  • or the photographer because upon publication, all rights revert
  • to them.
  • And I don't know if the board is aware of this,
  • but we don't own the things that are published in the paper
  • once it's published.
  • I guess I own it between the time they turn it
  • and the time the paper comes back from the printer
  • but then as I've understood it all these years,
  • rights revert to them.
  • And I say, look here's the person's contact info.
  • Ask them.
  • But as far as getting stories picked up,
  • sometimes that happens.
  • You know it's happened occasionally over the years.
  • And part of the reason that I'm doing tweets now--
  • I'm putting stuff on Twitter--
  • is that I was hoping that the local media, which
  • I am following, would start getting some gay or at least
  • local gay information from the paper
  • and from the tweets and the web site and the Facebook page
  • that we have.
  • And that's not necessarily true.
  • I think City, somebody at City might be doing it.
  • There's a couple sort of, but the main-- the D&C
  • and the main news stations, as far as I know,
  • have no interest at all in monitoring our gay news.
  • And if there is a story that comes up, then
  • they will call the executive director
  • or whoever happens to be our spokesperson at the time,
  • will interview that person.
  • But they are not following our tweets,
  • not paying any attention to what we have to say.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Is that pretty much been the case forever?
  • SUSAN JORDAN: Well, we've only been tweeting for a few months.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yes but I mean in terms of--
  • SUSAN JORDAN: I don't know.
  • I think-- I've talked to a few D&C reporters.
  • And they say, oh I read the paper.
  • And you're doing what we should be doing,
  • because probably these reporters are gay and closeted
  • or something.
  • But no, it's been minimal I think.
  • But I don't really know.
  • I mean, maybe there's editors are
  • on the TV stations or the D&C that pick it up and look at it.
  • If so, I don't know because they don't contact me.
  • I am not the spokesperson for the agency.
  • But one time something did happen where I deliberately
  • intervened.
  • There was one year where we were going
  • to have the day of silence, you know the youth protest
  • essentially, Youth Day of Action.
  • And the D&C ran an article like the week
  • before saying something with the headline
  • like, parents outraged over gay event.
  • And you read the article and you find out
  • that one school, a man and a wife, who are-- the man
  • is a Greek Orthodox priest or I didn't
  • know they could get married, but somehow he
  • was some Greek Orthodox clergy person.
  • He and his wife objected.
  • But from the headline in the D&C was like,
  • all the parents of the school are up in arms.
  • So I called the editor.
  • And I said politely and calmly, you know this is misleading.
  • You read the article, you find out
  • it was one couple that objected.
  • And he was like a Greek Orthodox functionary of some kind.
  • And yet your headline gives the impression
  • that all the parents are so angry that these queers are
  • gonna corrupt their children or something.
  • So he apologized, what could he say.
  • And he sent a reporter and a photographer
  • to the day of silence.
  • And that was the only time the D&C has ever
  • covered the day of silence.
  • You know, there were photos of kids with the bandages
  • over their mouths.
  • There were interviews with them.
  • It was a serious full length article,
  • which would never have run if I hadn't called the editor
  • and objected to that initial misleading coverage.
  • And it never has happened since.
  • And in this past year, there was no coverage of the Pride Parade
  • in the Democrat and Chronicle.
  • They did a little perfunctory article about the picnic.
  • Did not mention the pride parade nor have a photograph of it.
  • Here we have like, you know, 10,000 gays
  • and their supporters marching through town.
  • The D&C did not cover it at all.
  • So I'm thinking our local media is seriously
  • lacking in competence.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: So you would put the lack of coverage
  • down to incompetence versus?
  • SUSAN JORDAN: It could be incompetence.
  • It could be homophobia.
  • It could be a combination of the two.
  • It could simply be just disinterest.
  • But it's interesting, the D&C in 2009
  • had an editorial that came out against gay marriage.
  • And as I understand it, from what I've heard,
  • opinion was divided within the local editors.
  • You know, the local editor, whoever that was at the time,
  • wanted to endorse gay marriage.
  • But because there was this controversy about it,
  • they asked the national publisher apparently.
  • I don't really know for sure.
  • But he said, no, of course you're not
  • going to endorse gay marriage.
  • So they came out against gay marriage in 2009.
  • So who knows what motivates editors,
  • what motivates publishers, what motivates reporters.
  • You know, I suspect homophobia is a big ingredient,
  • either whether it's active right wing evangelical homophobia,
  • or whether it's just passive aggressive, I don't know
  • and I don't care homophobia.
  • Your guess is as good as mine.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: The news channels?
  • thirteen, ten?
  • SUSAN JORDAN: Well ten and thirteen
  • have seemed to be a co-operative sometimes.
  • They do cover things Norma Holland was helpful.
  • You know, she apparently she had some gays on her morning show
  • and she got death threats.
  • And she was a celebrity spokesperson for Dine
  • Out one year.
  • Well this past year, and whether this
  • is something that will ever make it into the videotape or not
  • I don't know, but Scott Hetsko, the weather man
  • from another station, I guess, was
  • going to be our celebrity spokesperson.
  • And in fact, we even had a million photos of him
  • at Winfield Grill and everything else.
  • And then his bosses apparently talked
  • to Norma Holland's bosses.
  • Oh, she got death threats for being pro-gay.
  • And they forbade Scott Hetsko to have anything to do with us.
  • That's why Sam [Biggo?] was our only celebrity spokesperson
  • this year.
  • So, I don't know what goes on and who the decision makers are
  • or why they make their decisions in the local media.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: YNN?
  • Is that?--
  • SUSAN JORDAN: I don't know.
  • I think they seem reasonably friendly.
  • It's like, are you talking about a reporter?
  • Are you're talking about an editor?
  • Are you talking about a publisher?
  • There's many different people.
  • In the D&C they have a high turnover.
  • Local reporters are here for a couple of years
  • and they go off to the Nebraska or something.
  • New people come in who don't know anything
  • about the community.
  • So again, I think it's like you know the Gannett franchise does
  • very poor journalism.
  • Usually, not always.
  • Sometimes they come out with brilliant stuff.
  • But usually it looks pretty shoddy
  • and not really interested in the local communities.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: I do know like August 2
  • when the Smithsonian came to that, YNN was there.
  • SUSAN JORDAN: I'm not saying they
  • don't cover important stories.
  • And I think they covered that because of the name
  • Smithsonian, not because of the name Gay Alliance,
  • let's face it.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
  • But the 40th anniversary of The Empty Closet it
  • was covered by YNN and Channel 8.
  • SUSAN JORDAN: Oh I didn't really see anything on TV.
  • I know I did an interview and it was on their website.
  • It wasn't on the TV show.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: OK.
  • SUSAN JORDAN: And I don't know.
  • It doesn't matter to me.
  • I wouldn't say that--
  • I wouldn't say that they've censored all coverage of gays
  • or anything like that.
  • But it just leaves a lot to be desired.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: The interest isn't there?
  • SUSAN JORDAN: Yeah or they feel like well, we
  • don't want to give aid and comfort to these, you know,
  • radical militant political people
  • or whatever, however they see us.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Do you consider yourself a radical militant?
  • SUSAN JORDAN: I sure do.
  • I consider myself a socialist feminist.
  • And I wish Obama were a socialist.
  • I'd be a lot happier voting for him,
  • instead of feeling I'm voting for the lesser of two evils
  • once again.
  • But that's just me.
  • That's not the Gay Alliance.
  • That's not the Gay Alliance board.
  • That's not even the other staff.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: But you, Susan Jordan,
  • have a history in this community of radicalism.
  • SUSAN JORDAN: I guess I'm the bad girl.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And have stood for many, many, many years
  • with those who move the agenda and are out front, primarily
  • I think because of your reporting and your recording
  • of those events and presenting them in The Empty Closet
  • or in other forms.
  • SUSAN JORDAN: Yeah, well, what I've tried to do
  • is keep a space between news reporting and op-ed commentary.
  • And it's not always easy to do.
  • For one thing, most media, print media especially,
  • have always said, we're objective.
  • That's the hallmark of good journalism.
  • And the whole thing about the liberal media is such a myth.
  • I mean, you might have the occasional liberal editor
  • or reporter or publisher, but the mainstream media
  • is not there to be political.
  • The mainstream media is there to make money.
  • Period.
  • End of story.
  • So this whole liberal media myth is
  • one of the many lies from the radical right.
  • And they really are subjective media.
  • Fox News, fair and balanced if you're
  • to the right of that of Hitler maybe.
  • But you know, it's the mouth piece for conservatism
  • and for the Republican Party.
  • Well, The Empty Closet is also the mouthpiece
  • for those who say, gay is OK.
  • And gay people should have equal rights.
  • So we have never pretended to be objective mainstream media.
  • My thing is, I don't think most of the mainstream media
  • is objective either, because they'll go
  • where the publisher says to go.
  • Or this is going to make this more money.
  • Or our publisher is going to fire us
  • if we don't endorse the conservative or whatever.
  • They're not really all that objective either, especially
  • nowadays.
  • The standards have really fallen.
  • But The Empty Closet has always been out there
  • in defense of gay rights.
  • So we've never been a supposedly objective journalistic project.
  • But on the other hand, I do try to keep news stories, news
  • stories and op-ed, op-ed.
  • And that doesn't always work out.
  • I could definitely be accused of having crossed the borderline.
  • But again, we're not here to give you the objective view.
  • And if the right wing comes out and says,
  • all gay men are child molesters, we
  • don't report that as a serious story.
  • You know, we say anti-gay forces have said this.
  • And that makes us nonobjective.
  • That makes us subjective.
  • But you know, that's what we're here for.
  • We're not here to supposedly, you know, give all sides.
  • But it's interesting that the media,
  • this so-called objective mainstream media
  • doesn't really do that anyway.
  • For instance, if there is an African-American event in town,
  • they don't go out and get the KKK side of the story anymore.
  • And to some extent, they're still
  • doing that for gay people.
  • That if there's a pride event, up until the last few years,
  • well, we have to get the ultra right-wing evangelical
  • condemnation of this as part of the story.
  • They aren't doing that quite so much anymore, which I guess,
  • is that progress?
  • I don't know.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: I'm not sure--
  • at all.
  • SUSAN JORDAN: I think it is.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Well it seems to me
  • that the opposition is one of the things that helps us
  • as a community become cohesive and become
  • unified in our opposition to that negative barrage.
  • SUSAN JORDAN: Right, well see, the gay community
  • is so diverse that it takes this kind of oppression
  • to really make people like a black kid
  • from the inner city and a rich white guy
  • from Pittsford to realize they have something in common.
  • They don't have equal civil rights.
  • But by the same token, you know, oppression is not always good
  • for the oppressed.
  • Oppression is not good for the character.
  • People who grow up in poverty and desperation and abuse
  • are going to become criminals.
  • Others are going to overcome that
  • and will not become criminals, but I'm just
  • saying oppression is not good for the character.
  • And oddly enough, over the years the most serious, largest
  • threats to the survival of the Gay Alliance
  • have always come from other gay people,
  • not from the people that send us occasional death threat once
  • every ten years or something.
  • It's gay people, personality conflicts, all the rest of it,
  • that have been the threats to the Gay Alliance's survival.
  • And that's because partly at least, in some cases,
  • internalized homophobia.
  • You know like Groucho Marx used to say,
  • "I would never join any club that
  • would have me as a member."
  • Well you know, if you hate yourself enough,
  • any organization that represents you has got to be bad
  • and you've got to find out it's false.
  • And say see, that gay organization
  • that claims to represent me is actually full of it.
  • And that's internalized self-hate, horizontal
  • hostility.
  • And it's very prevalent unfortunately.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Have you, as editor of The Empty Closet
  • ever received any death threats?
  • SUSAN JORDAN: Well, nobody has ever personally said
  • they were going to kill me.
  • We have received death threats.
  • I remember-- I don't think we had any since we've been here,
  • but I remember back at Elton's street,
  • we would get a death threat or somebody was--
  • came by and there was all this red paint
  • all over the sidewalk.
  • And apparently some anti-gay freaks
  • had come by and thrown red paint at the building.
  • And they must have thrown it from their car,
  • as you remember, it was about five feet away
  • from the wall of the building.
  • And their aim was so poor that it all fell on the sidewalk
  • instead of hitting the building, you know.
  • And there was a troubled kid in that neighborhood that threw
  • a rock through the window.
  • You know, I've never felt seriously in danger,
  • but it's also true if Norma Holland
  • is getting death threats, may be the only reason we've avoided
  • that is because we're not on TV every day.
  • We're not visible.
  • So that the haters would really have
  • to go to a certain amount of trouble.
  • But you know, there's little stuff that's
  • like, a lot of places where we leave the paper every month,
  • coffee shops, or whatever, as opposed to Outlandish or Equal
  • Grounds, just general places.
  • You go and all The Empty Closets are
  • hidden under other newspapers.
  • Or people have seen people just take the whole bunch
  • out to the dumpster and so forth.
  • So some freelance censorship going on there.
  • So that kind of stuff still goes on.
  • I have never personally had anybody
  • say I'm going to kill you, bitch or anything like that.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Have you ever experienced being harassed?
  • SUSAN JORDAN: Oh yeah.
  • You know, I think every year in the pride parade
  • we're all harassed by the men with bullhorns who say,
  • we're fucking dogs and all the rest of it.
  • But I've been harassed all my life,
  • for one reason or another.
  • So I can't say I've been more harassed for being
  • a lesbian than for being a woman or for being fat or whatever.
  • I've had it since childhood.
  • I'm used to it, if you ever get used to it.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Were you born in Rochester?
  • SUSAN JORDAN: No.
  • I'm from the Jersey Shore.
  • But I've been here since around 1972.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Wow.
  • And how did you come to Rochester?
  • SUSAN JORDAN: Well, just I knew some people who lived here.
  • And I went to college with some people
  • whose home was in Rochester.
  • And they were really the only interesting, sympathetic,
  • simpatico kind of people that I even knew.
  • So I ultimately ended up following them here
  • to Rochester.
  • And I don't see too many of them anymore
  • because I've kind of created a life for myself.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
  • SUSAN JORDAN: But it was because I knew people.
  • I don't know if you know Nancy Rosen.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
  • SUSAN JORDAN: She was two years ahead of me at school.
  • And it was funny, when I first arrived
  • at this horrible women's college in Pennsylvania, my roommate
  • and I went down the hall from her.
  • And there were these rumors, is Nancy Rosen really a lesbian?
  • Oh no!
  • Know It's true and real.
  • We couldn't actually know a lesbian, which
  • is pretty funny thinking back.
  • You know, it's like oh, right.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: What do you think has
  • been the greatest change in the life of The Empty Closet?
  • SUSAN JORDAN: Well, I would say the fact that we finally
  • got a professional graphic designer to actually
  • makes the paper look more credible and more professional.
  • That's probably the biggest change we've had.
  • And some people think the paper is boring and dreadful
  • and have many plans to change it.
  • But I don't think it's that bad.
  • If you look at the other papers from around the country,
  • it's not just a bar rag.
  • It's not just made of national features
  • that they got for free or something.
  • I think our big flaw is that we don't
  • do investigative journalism.
  • And that's because we don't have professional level reporters
  • who are willing to give us six weeks of their time and energy
  • to do these projects.
  • And I can't edit and be an investigative reporter
  • and be a researcher and do the layout and do the mailings
  • and do volunteer training.
  • You know, that just that doesn't work.
  • So I think if we could afford to pay reporters,
  • we could hire someone who could do investigative journalism.
  • As it is, I try to do my best.
  • But this is not what I would do if I had the money.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
  • Has putting The Empty Closet on-line been successful?
  • SUSAN JORDAN: I guess so.
  • I mean, you have to do that these days.
  • And I think what's successful is that we still
  • have a print edition.
  • And I think that's good, especially for people
  • my age who don't really feel simpatico
  • with all the technology and are not constantly texting
  • all day and stuff.
  • But I think it's also that people
  • like to have something they hold in their hands
  • and they don't have to have a battery
  • or they don't have to have electric power in order
  • to read whatever it is.
  • But you know, these days you do have to do that.
  • And I think it's fine, the wider audience
  • we get, the further our message can spread the better.
  • But I would be sad if there was no print version anymore.
  • And it may come to that.
  • It's just different because when we have a print version,
  • we can charge a fair amount for our ads.
  • But as I understand it, nobody gets
  • a whole lot of money from online advertising,
  • including big corporations, you know.
  • That's why they have a lot of problems.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
  • SUSAN JORDAN: It's like they're putting out the money
  • and nothing is coming in from advertising.
  • But if The Empty Closet had even one ad sales person working
  • on commission, we could double the amount of ad revenue
  • that we're bringing in.
  • But I can't find anyone.
  • I put an ad in the paper.
  • And then you get people coming in who have mental illness
  • problems or are going to do it for a month
  • and then decide it's too much trouble.
  • I haven't had a good ad sales person
  • since right in the early '90s when John Strand and I
  • were working together.
  • We had this wonderful woman.
  • And then after six months or so, she moved to San Francisco.
  • But at that point I realized, we needed
  • to keep having other people than myself selling ads.
  • And off and on, we've had some good people but then they
  • move or they lose interest, or they just have never
  • done much to start with.
  • And it's just-- you know, we could be making a lot more.
  • If I had some help in finding some ad sales people.
  • We give them a generous commission,
  • but we can't salary them in the way City Newspaper does.
  • City Newspaper has had salaried employees
  • right from the beginning, Mariana Tyler
  • told me years ago.
  • And it would be illegal for them to have
  • volunteers working for them.
  • Whereas we have never been able to salary anyone
  • except the editor and the graphic designer.
  • So it's just not that kind of publication.
  • And unfortunately, I think people
  • expect to see us doing all this stuff,
  • not realizing we don't have money to pay people to do it.
  • It's just is what it is.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Talk to me a little bit
  • about the columnists.
  • SUSAN JORDAN: We've had a lot of good columnists over the years.
  • And a few that weren't that great.
  • But again, they're volunteers.
  • So they come and go.
  • And some of them have stuck by us
  • for years for their own personal reasons in no doubt.
  • And others kind of come and go.
  • Occasionally, we've had national columnists
  • who were journalists or activists who've given me
  • their columns for free.
  • And these were people I met at maybe the National Gay
  • and Lesbian Journalists Association Conference
  • or that I met elsewhere.
  • We had a guy Mubarak Bashir who did some excellent columns
  • for a while.
  • And new he's dropped out.
  • I don't see his work anywhere in the gay media anymore.
  • And I don't know what happened to him.
  • Right now, we have Reverend Irene Monroe,
  • Cambridge, Massachusetts who writes "Faith Matters."
  • And she charges, but she doesn't charge me a cent.
  • I get her column for free.
  • And she's the only national columnist we have right now.
  • In fact, I just downloaded another column from her today.
  • But basically, it's local people who have
  • something they want to say.
  • And that's great, but they just have
  • to say it in a sort of literate way
  • so their column is readable.
  • And I would like to have a transgender columnist now.
  • Laura McSpadden was doing "Beyond the Binary."
  • But she lost interest.
  • I don't think we'll hear from her again, you know.
  • And various people over the years--
  • some of the columns have been pretty much
  • all about eye make-up or something.
  • A lot of transgender people find that offensive.
  • I would just like to find a good transgender columnist.
  • I'd like to find a bisexual columnist.
  • In fact, I'm writing about that in my editorial this month.
  • We would love to have a regular column
  • by local bisexual activists to kind of dispel
  • some of the stereotypes that exist
  • in the gay community about bisexuals.
  • But I haven't seen any real strong bisexual
  • activism in Rochester since Michele SpringMore left town.
  • And so I don't know if I'll get any responses
  • from my little appeal in my editorial.
  • I doubt it.
  • But again, I wish we had people representing.
  • But again, it can't just be, oh we
  • have our politically correct little list of columnists.
  • The columns have to be well-written.
  • They have to be interesting.
  • And not just about the person.
  • You know, I mean Eric Bellmann writes about himself.
  • But you know, he's an older gay man writing about his life
  • as an older gay man.
  • And the columns are interesting, usually, you know.
  • Or even amusing or whatever.
  • And that's why we love him.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: He's the longest--
  • SUSAN JORDAN: Yeah he started a year or so before I
  • became editor.
  • And he Michele didn't get along at all.
  • But then he was still around.
  • And over the years, he's kept writing.
  • And I think it's a personal thing for him
  • that he needs to do this.
  • And I wouldn't be running it if I
  • didn't think that it was well written and that men read it.
  • I do hear from them.
  • Not everybody likes it.
  • But I think men do read that column.
  • But he and Meredith Elizabeth Reiniger
  • are the two that I want to run every month because one
  • is an older gay man.
  • One is an older lesbian.
  • And I just wish I had a transgender and bisexual
  • columnist of any age.
  • But again, it's just getting somebody
  • who's bi or trans to write something terrible, uh-uh.
  • I'm looking for really good.
  • And that's why it's hard to find somebody who can write,
  • who can get it in by deadline, and not say anything offensive,
  • and you know, and write something
  • that people will actually read, as opposed to turning the page
  • and say well, this is well-meaning but it's boring.
  • And turn the page, you know.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
  • SUSAN JORDAN: We've had great columnists just like we've
  • had great volunteers.
  • We've been really fortunate.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Mm-hm.
  • Talk to me a little bit about the controversy over sex ads.
  • SUSAN JORDAN: Well it's always--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: In the EC
  • SUSAN JORDAN: --always been our policy
  • not to have ads showing genitalia
  • for various reasons, one of them being that the US Postal
  • Service probably wouldn't allow our publication to be mailed
  • if we were full of genitalia.
  • In fact, you don't find too many publications
  • that run anything like that, whether they mail it out
  • or not.
  • Right now, an advertiser who has advertised for the last twenty
  • plus years and is just, you know, a really wonderful
  • person.
  • His new ad shows a man who's naked except for one
  • of those utility belts.
  • You don't see genitalia.
  • You don't see his butt.
  • You know, you see his torso and part of his leg.
  • And some people might object to that.
  • But I hope we're beyond the point of censoring ourselves.
  • I mean, I'm not going to run pictures of penises.
  • But if you have a guy with his shirt off,
  • I don't want to hear from offended feminists
  • or offended gay men for that matter about how
  • it's so terrible to have a semi-nude guy.
  • You know, it's like, we're censoring gay sexuality
  • and gay bodies are censored everywhere.
  • We should not be censoring.
  • We should not be in the business of censoring gay sexuality,
  • up to a point.
  • I mean obviously, we can't have photos of genitalia or sex acts
  • in the paper.
  • But up to that point, I don't want to feel like,
  • oh I'm censoring it because it's not quite nice
  • and some middle class heterosexuals might not
  • approve of our gay sexuality.
  • Well if they don't like it, tough.
  • Don't read the paper.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: I was trying to get at the NAMBLA issue.
  • SUSAN JORDAN: Oh that's another issue
  • that I don't think I've even heard anything from anybody
  • like that for fifteen years, even
  • wanting to be in the paper.
  • And no, that's another thing.
  • We don't want genitalia, we don't want sex acts,
  • we don't want criminal conduct.
  • Child abuse is criminal conduct.
  • There's no way in the world that we can even
  • condone that, much less publish photos of it
  • or anything like that.
  • I wouldn't publish an ad for NAMBLA really.
  • But on the other hand, I don't like the censorship thing.
  • It's just a difficult thing.
  • It's like, at what point do gays start censoring other gays.
  • And then the whole issue of child abuse
  • is screwed up anyway.
  • Because gay men are no more liable to be child
  • abusers than heterosexual men or women for that matter.
  • And a lot of gay men really dig seventeen
  • and eighteen-year-old and sixteen-year-old guys who
  • might be like six foot tall.
  • They're physically mature.
  • That doesn't mean their emotionally mature.
  • And I don't approve of older men having
  • affairs with some seventeen-year-old or even
  • some eighteen-year-old.
  • But to call that child abuse?
  • No.
  • A pedophile is someone who wants to
  • a weak, helpless, pre-sexual, pre-puberty, sexually immature
  • child's body.
  • And they want to manipulate that weak, powerless, little person.
  • Wanting to screw a six foot tall eighteen-year-old
  • is not the same as child abuse.
  • And yet, to heterosexuals it's like, oh
  • gays are child abusers.
  • See that gay man wants to date that seventeen-year-old kid
  • even though--
  • you know, it's like well, yeah.
  • He shouldn't be doing that.
  • But by the same token, it's not child abuse either.
  • The seventeen-year-old is a six foot tall and sexually mature.
  • This is inappropriate, but it's not pedophilia.
  • And yet oh, all gay men are pedophiles.
  • And of course, there's a lot of gay men
  • who aren't particularly interested in, you know,
  • teenagers although, I expect they
  • like hunky twenty-year-olds or something like that.
  • And I don't necessarily approve of older people being
  • involved with younger people.
  • I think there's still a power imbalance there
  • that leaves the younger person vulnerable.
  • But is it child abuse?
  • No way.
  • And yet, that's what it gets labeled as.
  • So it's complicated.
  • Let's put it that way.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Well, it's not simple.
  • Certainly.
  • SUSAN JORDAN: No it's this many layered and complex issue.
  • And of course, the anti-gay media
  • is not interested in unraveling complexities or doing anything
  • except getting an anti-gay slogan out there.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: They like simple, black and white, one word.
  • SUSAN JORDAN: Hate the queers, hate the queers (laughs).
  • And that's about it.
  • That's the level of their analysis.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Share with me, if you would,
  • your perceptions of gay visibility over the past twenty
  • years.
  • SUSAN JORDAN: Well, it's been pretty dramatic obviously.
  • Anybody who watches TV or sees the media--
  • well again, to quote myself in my editorial of the month.
  • It's like gay love used to be the love that
  • dare not speak its name.
  • And now of course the joke is, it's
  • the love that won't shut up.
  • And that's meant to be a put down,
  • but I think it's positive.
  • Of course we shouldn't shut up.
  • And we're visible.
  • Gays are visible now all over the media,
  • all over the internet, TV, and everything.
  • Which doesn't mean we're accepted or whatever,
  • but it's just night and day.
  • When I became editor, it was the love
  • that dare not speak its name.
  • And if you said anything, you would
  • be slapped down as a child molester or whatever.
  • And now we're all over the media.
  • We're all over TV.
  • And it still leaves a lot to be desired,
  • but it's just been dramatic, absolutely dramatic.
  • And I think that accounts for a lot of, at least
  • the increasing acceptance, especially
  • among younger people.
  • So it's like hey, we know this exists.
  • Get over it.
  • Gay people have always existed and always will exist,
  • whether the bigots like it or not.
  • It's just how much, to what extent
  • are they going to be allowed to discriminate.
  • That's the only question.
  • It's not like we've suddenly arrived on earth
  • or that we're going to disappear if the right wing tells
  • us is to pray away the gay.
  • We've always existed.
  • We'll always exist.
  • That's part of what human beings are.
  • And it's good that we're much more visible
  • than we were twenty years ago.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
  • Has the Gay Alliance helped move the visibility
  • to another level?
  • SUSAN JORDAN: Well in Rochester, in our own little way,
  • in our own little microcosm here in upstate New York,
  • we've definitely been a force to increase visibility.
  • And our story is repeated all over the country and, you know,
  • all fifty states.
  • Some are a little more successful
  • than others at this point because some had more
  • to work with.
  • A more liberal population to work with to begin with.
  • But the Gay Alliance has done a lot.
  • And people know that there's Pride every year.
  • They know that The Empty Closet comes out every month.
  • What they don't know perhaps is all the presentations,
  • the workshops, the trainings.
  • All the stuff the Alliance does with colleges, schools,
  • corporations, businesses, churches.
  • You know, that doesn't get a whole lot of attention
  • except in The Empty Closet.
  • But I think that has helped to transform,
  • in our own little way.
  • We're not the only people locally
  • that have been doing this stuff, but all
  • over the country, little groups, little organizations in cities
  • especially have contributed to the revolution
  • of the last twenty years.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: How significant was having an openly gay City
  • Councilman in the early '80s.
  • SUSAN JORDAN: That was pretty significant.
  • That was back when, you know, we were the love
  • that dare not speak its name.
  • And talking about death threats, Tim Mains
  • got plenty of death threats.
  • And there was one guy who said he
  • was going to be up on the roof of the Co-op on Monroe Avenue
  • and pick us off with his rifle as we staged our first Pride
  • parade or something.
  • And of course never did.
  • But that was the atmosphere then.
  • So I think that made a big difference.
  • And you know, that was a big deal for the '80s.
  • And that was like thirty years ago
  • and people have forgotten about it.
  • And we've gone on to other stuff now.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Talk to me a little bit
  • about the difference in political focus
  • between women in the gay movement
  • and men in the gay movement.
  • Early on, at the GLF, women's groups separated--
  • SUSAN JORDAN: Right well that was at a time
  • when feminists-- what was the second wave or a third wave
  • or whatever the hell it was back in the '70s and '80s--
  • of feminism.
  • And a lot of women were starting to think
  • in terms of feminist analysis.
  • And oh, why don't we get as much?
  • I do the same job as the guy at the next desk.
  • How come I get 20 percent less or 50 percent less
  • pay for doing the same job or bigger job and doing it better?
  • And I get paid less.
  • And that was the economic side of it.
  • And then there was the whole violence
  • against women movement.
  • Oh, how come it's amusing to show women being
  • put through meat grinders.
  • That's supposed to be a turn on.
  • And we're supposed to say that's OK or else we're prudes.
  • We're censors.
  • And all of that had a lot of influence on women.
  • But again, that was thirty or forty years ago.
  • And a lot of that history has been erased.
  • And talk about saving the Gay Alliance history.
  • Let's save the history of feminism
  • and feminist activism in the 1970s.
  • That's been erased largely.
  • And I think also, let's not forget
  • that many women, many lesbians and bi-women are not
  • necessarily feminist.
  • And that they weren't then and they aren't now.
  • There are some really sick women who
  • claim to be women who love women and are adamantly
  • opposed to reproductive choice.
  • Because, you know, they've been brainwashed
  • by the Catholic church or for whatever reason
  • they're very anti-feminist.
  • And then there's other women who have
  • been completely apolitical, could not care less.
  • And I can't speak for gay men.
  • Obviously HIV was what really radicalized a lot of gay men.
  • Martin Hiraga and Paul Scheib and others
  • doing ACT-UP the whole ACT-UP movement
  • radicalized a lot of gay men.
  • And it took this terrible epidemic
  • to get a lot of these men to realize that we're angry enough
  • and there are enough of us that we can organize.
  • And we can be visible.
  • And we can make a difference.
  • In the Reagan years, oh HIV doesn't exist.
  • Who cares if a few queers and black people die.
  • A lot of people still hold that view,
  • but I wouldn't say it's the general view anymore.
  • So I think a lot of gay men became very politically active.
  • And those gay men were much more politically active
  • than the passive apolitical feminists or women of the time.
  • So you can't really say oh, the women were all so wonderful.
  • Right on activists.
  • And all the men were nothing until AIDS came along.
  • It's not that simple.
  • There have always been men who were strong activists.
  • There have always been women who are anti-woman
  • or at least totally apolitical.
  • So it's again it's a little complicated.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: But in the beginning,
  • when the Gay Alliance began in 1970, '71, '72, '73,
  • when I read the New Campus Times, when
  • I read The Empty Closet early on,
  • there is a distinct emphasis on women's issues not
  • being the same as men's issues.
  • SUSAN JORDAN: Yeah, because you know this is 1970s.
  • Feminism was just getting started,
  • that particular wave of feminism was just getting started.
  • Women were just starting to analyze all of that,
  • just starting to get politically organized.
  • And men couldn't give a damn.
  • You know, like a lot of men, they're interested in men.
  • They're interested in male stuff.
  • They could care less about women.
  • Some may be actively hostile.
  • Others have women friends that they like fine but would never
  • occur to them.
  • Oh, I need to support my women friend
  • by coming out at the anti-violence against women.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
  • SUSAN JORDAN: But a lot of lesbians and bi women
  • got very involved in supporting their gay male friends who
  • had HIV and very supportive.
  • I mean look at Sue Callow helping
  • to found AIDS Rochester and all this stuff.
  • And then I'd like to think that a lot of men
  • have learned from that and have become more feminist
  • as the years went by.
  • But again, it was because of feminist women.
  • And let's not forget all those other women
  • who were totally uninterested or were anti-feminist.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: I recall the Take Back The Night marches and--
  • SUSAN JORDAN: And that's where I got into political activism.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: --some of the other marches that occurred.
  • And they were always predominantly women,
  • but there were always men--
  • SUSAN JORDAN: Always a few men--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Involved supporting the desire
  • to be nonviolent, to not objectify,
  • to not do all of the things that are--
  • SUSAN JORDAN: They were probably a minority.
  • But that's true today.
  • It's probably a minority of gay men or minority of straight men
  • that are really that interested, you know.
  • They have to be especially political or especially
  • attached to women in their own lives or both
  • to really get active.
  • As opposed to say, yeah, sure I support choice
  • and leave it at that.
  • But there is plenty of women who don't--
  • but fortunately HIV is no longer quite
  • the emergency it was twenty years ago or thirty years ago.
  • So all that-- that was then.
  • That was just women were just starting to get feminist
  • and just starting to realize how oppressed
  • we were, even by well-meaning men who didn't hate women.
  • But also didn't have the slightest concern
  • about anything to do with women.
  • So we had to go through that period.
  • And we did, thirty years ago.
  • So where are we today?
  • Well, I don't know.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Are we too assimilated?
  • SUSAN JORDAN: Oh some people are, you know.
  • But they always were.
  • Some people want to just have the same rights
  • as straight people.
  • And it just depends what class you are.
  • A middle class, sort of upper middle class white person,
  • you know, will assimilate a lot more easily
  • or will be satisfied with assimilation a lot more easily
  • than working class lesbian or a black gay man
  • or somebody who really knows what oppression is.
  • And that it's connected.
  • And it's not just, oh OK.
  • Now I can get married legally, therefore
  • I'm not being oppressed by society anymore.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: How important is it
  • for us to maintain our own identity?
  • SUSAN JORDAN: What kind of identity?
  • You mean like gay identity?
  • Or identify as gay and lesbian?
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Gay identity.
  • SUSAN JORDAN: I don't know.
  • People have to make that decision for themselves.
  • I'm proud to be a lesbian.
  • I never wanted to be male.
  • It's hard for me to understand female to male transgender,
  • gender variant people.
  • But you know, it's much easier for me
  • to understand male to female transgender people.
  • And one of my closest friends is male to female transgender.
  • So I can easily understand that or at least fairly easily.
  • It's harder for me to understand why
  • anybody would want to give up the wonderful status of being
  • female.
  • But that's their choice.
  • And if they feel that they are male and they always have been
  • and that's their identity, fine.
  • Or like a lot of the gender queer people who
  • seem to be the younger generation of trans people
  • are saying, I am content to being in touch with both.
  • Part of me is male.
  • Part of me is female.
  • I can access those things within myself.
  • And I don't feel I have to have surgery.
  • Or I don't have to specially use a male pronoun.
  • But I can if I want to.
  • They have to decide that for themselves.
  • It's like, I don't feel like I'm here to say oh,
  • well you should have surgery or you shouldn't.
  • Or you should transition or you shouldn't transition, you know.
  • That's their personal decisions to make.
  • I would just like to see us accepting
  • each other's decisions, as long as they're not
  • some kind of rapist or criminal thing that people are choosing.
  • But I would like to see lesbians be
  • able to accept male to female transwomen
  • and not bar them from the Michigan Music Festival.
  • Because if feminism has taught me anything,
  • it's that there's many ways to be a woman.
  • Old, young, fat, thin, hairy, hairless, mother, childless,
  • butch, femme.
  • They're all women.
  • And transgendered women is just another way to be a woman.
  • And a lot of feminists, or a lot of women
  • don't want to accept that.
  • It's like oh, it's a male plot.
  • Oh right, they're really going to lose
  • their home and their job and their family,
  • go through surgery just so they can have a male plot
  • and infiltrate your women's group?
  • I don't think so.
  • This is like really, really oppressive.
  • And I really part company with any so-called feminists
  • who are anti-trans.
  • But on the other hand, trans people
  • have to take responsibility for accepting others.
  • And it's just disturb me, it's like how about lesbian pride.
  • How about young lesbians saying I'm
  • proud to be a lesbian, whether I'm butch or femme or whatever.
  • That's like oh no, I'm trans.
  • I'm genderqueer.
  • I reject being a lesbian.
  • I reject being a woman.
  • And some of these female to male transgender people
  • go oh, I'm going to slap my bitch around.
  • It's like they're becoming the oppressor.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
  • SUSAN JORDAN: And no, I'll never agree with that.
  • I'll never accept that and if it makes me a bad guy,
  • tough, you know.
  • But it's like, and to get into the gay male side of things,
  • I hear gay man talk all the time about how
  • gay men are so prejudiced against effeminate men
  • and queens.
  • And I only want to date straight looking guys.
  • And just putting down the queenie guys, it's like,
  • if you don't want to date a queen, don't.
  • But stop putting him down.
  • What's with the scorn?
  • And the contempt?
  • What's with the horizontal hostility folks?
  • That's what I want to avoid.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Mm-hm.
  • There has always been in the gay community an aversion
  • towards the queens.
  • SUSAN JORDAN: Yeah and I don't think that's fair.
  • I mean, I love the queens.
  • The only kind of queen I don't like
  • is the queen who has no sense of humor,
  • takes herself so seriously, and is willing to put down women.
  • Oh women are bitches.
  • And I'm more of a woman than they'll ever be.
  • Well, maybe you're more of a heterosexual male image
  • of a woman dating to the 1950s than most women will ever be,
  • but they don't want to be that, you know.
  • It's like so yeah there's queens that have bad attitudes too.
  • But that's a tiny minority.
  • Most queens I know have got a sense of humor.
  • They're politically aware.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
  • SUSAN JORDAN: I love them.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: But they seem to be--
  • SUSAN JORDAN: But they get put down by the clueless
  • gay men who are anti-queen and anti-feminism
  • or anti-effeminate men.
  • And I don't know.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yes, and they seem
  • to be the image that is conjured up in people's minds.
  • SUSAN JORDAN: Well that's the stereotype.
  • And that's the whole--
  • when we're talking about heterosexual stereotypes
  • of gay people, and unfortunately a lot of queers
  • internalize those stereotypes.
  • They internalize the hatred and become self-hatred.
  • And it's like, oh, I feel like I have
  • to prove that I'm masculine.
  • And I don't want to be associated
  • with a screaming queen or anything.
  • And it's like you've let that poison get into your system.
  • That's not good for you any more than it is for the queens.
  • It's screwed up.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: But the straight world--
  • SUSAN JORDAN: The straight world has always stereotyped.
  • I think the root cause of homophobia,
  • as far as hatred of gay men, goes back
  • to heterosexual hatred of women, misogyny.
  • It's like, you've given up your birthright
  • as being a lord of the universe in favor
  • of being this inferior subhuman female thing.
  • It all goes back to hatred of women.
  • As a feminist, I do believe that.
  • And if straight people get their own heads together
  • and stop being so obsessed with sex yet guilt ridden about it.
  • And so obsessed with gender and proving that they're masculine,
  • it's like oh, you have column A. You can be John Wayne.
  • Or if you're a woman, you have to column
  • A. You could be Marilyn Monroe.
  • And there's no column B, you know.
  • And that's if heterosexual people got over that and got
  • over stereotyping based on gender
  • and so forth, I think homophobia would disappear.
  • It's all based on hatred of women.
  • It's like being hunky macho gay men who can pass as straight.
  • They're invisible.
  • And the heterosexuals don't want to see them.
  • It's all that nasty queens.
  • And then that plays into gay men hating each other
  • for being too queenie because they
  • bought into that stereotype.
  • Anything female is bad and if you're a guy,
  • you've got to be John Wayne.
  • And it's like, that's the straight stereotype.
  • And it's sad to see gay men buy into the straight stereotype.
  • But that's another thing that oppression does to you.
  • It's not good for the character.
  • And that's-- it's too bad that oppressed groups have to work
  • twice as hard to prove that they're not all these
  • stereotypes.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
  • SUSAN JORDAN: It's like, screw the stereotypes.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Two final questions, short.
  • First is, what are you most proud
  • as having been a feminist, a socialist feminist, editor
  • of The Empty Closet for twenty-three years.
  • SUSAN JORDAN: Well, I think the only thing
  • I'm proud of personally is that the paper still
  • comes out of every month.
  • And the Gay Alliance still exists.
  • And the thing that worries me is that it looks like that's
  • coming to an end now.
  • Because we're over $70,000 in debt.
  • I don't see how much longer the Gay Alliance can go on.
  • So this might be an interesting historical record.
  • And people might say, gee, what a great documentary.
  • Too bad about the Gay Alliance.
  • They had to shut their doors in 2013
  • because they had no more money.
  • Gee, too bad about the youth that
  • are out there committing suicide or getting
  • into drugs on the streets because they don't
  • have the youth group anymore.
  • You know, I'm proudest that we've just
  • managed to survive it all.
  • And I question how long it's going to continue.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: My other question,
  • and maybe you've answered it already,
  • is what's the greatest challenge that
  • faces The Empty Closet or the--
  • SUSAN JORDAN: That's financial.
  • I don't see us being able to survive at all unless something
  • changes.
  • And I don't see anything changing.
  • So I'm up for retirement in another three, four,
  • or five years or so.
  • I'm sixty-five already.
  • I wonder if the Gay Alliance will
  • last until I'm ready to retire.
  • Of course, I'll never be able to retire financially,
  • but I'm going to have to.
  • And I think if we can continue to survive,
  • that's the most important thing.
  • Because it's not like there's no need for us.
  • And I think your average forty-year-old gay middle class
  • professional, especially white folks will say, well,
  • you know the Gay Alliance doesn't do anything for me.
  • Well, what do you need?
  • You can get married legally now.
  • The Gay Alliance is out talking to your corporate boss
  • so they don't oppress you anymore.
  • We have our Pride thing.
  • We have this and that.
  • What do you need?
  • It's like well, all you ever do is
  • work with the youth and the old people.
  • Well guess what?
  • They are the people that need help.
  • We've got at-risk youth.
  • We should just let them commit suicide?
  • We've got eighty-year-old gay people.
  • Are they going to go back into the closet in their nursing
  • home or whatever?
  • They don't have any family.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
  • SUSAN JORDAN: It's like the average forty-year-old gay
  • person.
  • I'm not going to give to Gay Alliance.
  • They didn't do anything for me.
  • And they might as well go on and say,
  • I don't give a damn if the kids commit suicide
  • or the old people die lonely.
  • It's like hey, we still need the Gay Alliance.
  • And I don't see it lasting much longer.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Well thank you, Susan.
  • SUSAN JORDAN: Now that I've cheered you up
  • for the day (laughs).