Audio Interview, Thomas Privitere, January 3, 2013
- EVELYN BAILEY: So I'm here with Tom Privitere on January 3rd,
- 2013.
- And Tom gave me some statistics from 2007.
- And what they indicate is that domestic partnership benefits
- really benefited heterosexual couples more
- than same-sex couples for the State of New York
- when those benefits were put into effect.
- And since, Governor Pataki, by executive order,
- made domestic partnership benefits
- available to state workers.
- TOM PRIVITERE: Actually, it was Governor Cuomo.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Governor Cuomo.
- With the prospective Republican regime coming in in 19--
- TOM PRIVITERE: 1995.
- EVELYN BAILEY: 1995, it was important to have
- the heterosexual population included
- in the domestic partnership benefits
- in order to offer greater protection
- for that benefit for all.
- Now Tom has been involved with the Union forever.
- TOM PRIVITERE: (Laughs) Close to forever.
- EVELYN BAILEY: No, I think he's that old.
- But-- when did you begin?
- TOM PRIVITERE: I began my career in the labor movement
- officially in 1978.
- I was a field representative for the American Federation
- of State, County and Municipal Employees,
- so I negotiated contracts for them, handled their grievances
- and arbitrations here in actually Monroe County
- and surrounding counties.
- And so at the time, I represented
- cities school district employees in the City of Rochester
- and the non-teaching employees of the city schools
- in Rochester.
- And as an advocate and as a practitioner in labor relations
- here in the region, in Monroe county and in Rochester,
- it became glaringly apparent to me as a gay man
- that one of the major benefits that heterosexual married
- couples enjoyed that gay couples did not was health insurance.
- Things that affected families in the labor contracts
- didn't include gay families or how we defined ourselves
- as families.
- And so I began quite consciously an effort
- to raise this with my colleagues in both AFSCME
- and another labor unions.
- Again, this is, you know, in the mid-to-late 1970s,
- and talking about gay issues in the labor community
- was not a very popular thing to do.
- However, in 1985, I left the AFSCME's employ
- and became a staff director, regional staff director
- for the New York State Public Employees Federation,
- which is a labor union representing, oh,
- tens of thousands of professional
- scientific and technical people who worked for the state.
- As the regional staff director, my territory
- included now not just Monroe County and surrounding counties
- for AFSCME, but I was supervising
- field offices in Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, south
- of Cornell, and Binghamton.
- So my--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Wow.
- TOM PRIVITERE: You know, my territory expanded,
- my job changed, and concurrently,
- my influence within the labor community.
- I shot up a little bit, yeah.
- And to my delight, what I discovered
- in PEF, which was very progressive in its attitudes
- about its gay and lesbian members,
- was that they actually had a gay and lesbian caucus
- within PEF who were advocating for things that I had been
- discussing ten years before that very quietly
- among my colleagues, which were the disparities in union
- benefits between straight employees and gay employees.
- And again, to my delight, I found
- a very active and very vocal caucus
- of gays and lesbians who were state employees, who
- were members of PEF, who themselves had been advocating
- that the Union start looking at the disparities between what
- their heterosexual counterparts and their agencies
- or offices or respective jobs were versus what they
- as gays and lesbians saw to be lacking.
- The primary concern for them was the disparity
- in health insurance for their partners.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Mm-hmm
- TOM PRIVITERE: Keep in mind, at the time, that domestic partner
- benefits had been extended to New York City employees
- back in the early '90s by Mayor Dinkins.
- And Governor Cuomo, when he was governor of New York State,
- had extended domestic partner benefits to state employees
- by executive order in 1994 this happened.
- A year later, when George Pataki became governor as a Republican
- with a more conservative perspective,
- he was joined by then Dennis Vacco,
- who became the attorney general of the State of New York--
- also a Republican.
- And Vacco's first action as attorney general
- was to rescind what had been a longstanding practice
- in that agency of nondiscrimination policy
- against gays and lesbians.
- So Vacco took active steps immediately
- upon becoming attorney general to backpedal
- on what we had seen as under Democratic administrations
- some progressive and liberal perspectives about gays
- and lesbians, particularly with respect to nondiscrimination
- against us in our employment.
- So as soon as Vacco did that, it was--
- we were simultaneously negotiating contracts
- with other unions across the state.
- And I became concerned and I think understandably,
- that Governor Pataki might in fact backpedal and rescind
- what Governor Cuomo had just passed the year before,
- which was domestic partner benefits for gays and lesbians
- in state employment.
- So we were at the negotiating table
- and we formed a coalition on health care bargaining.
- And during those discussions with my counterparts
- in other labor unions, I was able to convince them
- that it was in our collective interest
- to negotiate this benefit into our contracts
- because the executive order of one governor
- can be rescinded by a new governor,
- and the difference is that if we negotiated the benefit
- into our contracts, the only way that they
- could eliminate those benefits is
- if they negotiated them away.
- And so--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Now let me stop you for just a minute.
- The domestic partnership benefits
- that came in by executive order were for all--
- TOM PRIVITERE: All state employees.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Heterosexual--
- TOM PRIVITERE: And gays.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And gays.
- TOM PRIVITERE: Yes.
- And And so you were also advocating for that same--
- TOM PRIVITERE: Yes.
- EVELYN BAILEY: --broad spectrum--
- TOM PRIVITERE: The same standard to be applied in the contracts.
- EVELYN BAILEY: For heterosexuals and gays?
- TOM PRIVITERE: Mm-hmm.
- Because--
- EVELYN BAILEY: What other unions are we talking about?
- TOM PRIVITERE: We're talking about UUP, the United
- University Professors; the AFSCME Council TC-37, which
- represented at the time correction officers in prisons;
- CSEA, Civil Service Employees Association,
- and they represented the bulk of state employees
- who are nonprofessional.
- At the time, PEF in 1995 had approximately 58,000 members.
- CSEA was probably somewhere around 200 to 225,000.
- So the vast majority--
- numerically-- of state workers at the time were CSEA numbers.
- So they were the big dog at the table.
- And then along with PEF and UUP and the corrections officers,
- we represented the balance of the state workforce.
- So, you know, we're talking over a quarter
- of a million employees.
- And the issues were at the time--
- and over time, we've all seen what
- the unions knew in those days was that health insurance was
- going to become increasingly the more and more important
- issue for both public and private sector labor unions
- in upcoming contracts.
- And in the mid '90s, we had already
- experienced probably in the preceding ten years
- an escalation in health insurance costs.
- So health insurance benefits became the litmus test for us
- on whether we could actively include gay people in the mix
- when we were talking about employee benefits.
- And that plus other benefits that
- are associated with married couples and families.
- Leave, for example, bereavement leave,
- leave for family illness.
- Our families were not included in those definitions.
- And so if I had a domestic partner
- and one of my partner's parents died,
- I would not be entitled under the bereavement leave
- in our contracts to attend the funeral
- under the bereavement leave language
- because the contract didn't recognize my domestic partner
- and our relationship as family.
- And so it wasn't just health insurance,
- but we were looking at other elements of the contract that
- provided benefits to married couples
- that we were by definition excluded from.
- So we made some serious inroads in the mid '90s
- and in our collective bargaining agreements
- to ensure that LGBT members were protected to the extent
- that we could in our contracts, and I
- think that that was one of the crowning achievements
- in the mid '90s.
- And I've said to people before that DP benefits
- and the bargaining of DP benefits into labor contracts
- was really the foundation and the forerunner to our arguments
- for marriage equality.
- And there are links between all of the political considerations
- that we made at the level of state legislators
- and state senators who--
- because we don't do this in a vacuum.
- Negotiations doesn't happen just between the governor
- and the president of the union.
- There are backstories to how these things-- how
- supportive the legislature was and had been.
- For example, when Governor Cuomo issued the executive order
- to grant domestic partner benefits to gays and lesbians
- in state employment, clearly he had
- to have support from key members of his party
- and the legislature.
- And subsequently, when we were negotiating our contracts,
- we had to make sure that we had dotted the I's and crossed
- the T's with assemblymen and state senators
- and political activists who understood that the--
- because budgets had to be passed in conjunction
- with these contracts.
- Budgets have to be passed by the legislature.
- So we can't talk about these things
- without being aware that those of us in the LGBT movement who
- were involved politically used our political influence
- with those people in the legislature
- to support the governor and his move
- to settle contracts with the state workforce, which included
- benefits specifically enhancing the work
- lives of gay and lesbian employees.
- So the links had to be there.
- So those were behind the scenes activities that a lot of people
- don't realize happened.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Now those links were primarily
- developed, though, through democratic administrations?
- TOM PRIVITERE: Yes.
- I think-- but I think that it's also fair to say that there
- were some progressive Republicans who had--
- we had to form coalitions with.
- I mean, it would be naive for us to think
- that politically we could only rely on one particular party
- to carry the mission statement and the goals forward.
- But it was primarily Democrats in the early and mid '90s
- who were supportive of our issues.
- In fact, here locally, the very first democratic town
- supervisor who contacted me after we successfully
- negotiated DP benefits at the state level was Sandy Frankel.
- And so you see on that list the town of Brighton
- was the first and continuous to be the only town
- government that provides domestic partner benefits.
- Now to be fair, the town of Brighton,
- not unlike some other jurisdictions,
- only wanted to extend those benefits
- to gay and lesbian employees.
- But, keep in mind that this was in the context years
- later of us actually reaching the point where marriage
- equality was on the horizon.
- And so the irony is that now that DP benefits were broadly
- applied to the state workforce, fast
- forward to the early 2000s--
- 2003, 2004, 2005.
- And in 2006, the Rochester Area Labor Federation--
- the labor council, the local labor council--
- passed the very first resolution of its kind
- in New York State supporting the concept of marriage
- equality for gays and lesbians.
- And I don't think it's an overestimation for me
- to say that if it weren't for the labor
- movement in its early and vocal intangible support for rights
- for gays and lesbians in the workforce,
- that the later fight for marriage equality
- wouldn't have been as successful in the laws, because I think
- we had already done the leg work on convincing them
- about equality in the workplace in terms of benefit
- levels like health insurance, like bereavement leave,
- like family medical leave.
- So we had already primed the pump
- as it were politically to support the concept
- of domestic partner benefits.
- It wasn't a quantum leap for many of these same legislators
- in governmental agencies when the concept of marriage
- equality came down the pike for the unions
- to get behind marriage equality as a civil rights and a worker
- rights issue.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- TOM PRIVITERE: Because one of the things I'd
- like to point out is that many people don't realize
- that while domestic partner benefits did
- secure to some extent a measure of equality,
- it was not equality, because domestic partner benefits
- are taxed.
- So for people who are married, for example, legally married,
- and they have health insurance spousal benefits for a husband
- and/or wife, those benefits are not
- taxed by the federal government because the federal government
- actually recognizes the legal marriage.
- Domestic partner benefits, however, came in
- under a separate tax category.
- The government looked at DP benefits
- as exactly that-- a benefit accruing
- to the employee who then extends that benefit
- to their domestic partner.
- And so they taxed the value of those premiums
- as if they were a fringe benefit that gay people were--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- TOM PRIVITERE: So it was not a level playing field
- by any stretch of the imagination.
- And so the fight then became a different type of battle for us
- because we argued that it was separate and unequal for DP
- benefits.
- Because marriage, which didn't exist
- in New York State at the time, was something that we really
- had to fight for.
- And so the unions--
- and the union particularly in Monroe county
- here in Rochester--
- by this time, I found myself surrounded
- by more and more LGBT activists in the labor movement.
- Bess Watts comes to mind.
- Ove Overmeyer.
- You know, the people who are the unsung heroes and heroines
- of this whole movement began to become activists
- in their own unions.
- And so I got a lot more support as time
- went on from my colleagues who also
- happened to be gay and lesbian in other labor unions.
- So in 2006, which was a little more than ten years
- after we negotiated the DP benefits,
- the time was ripe for us to use the labor community and all
- the power and all the influence it had politically
- to get behind the marriage equality movement.
- And so subsequent to that resolution in 2006,
- that was passed by the Rochester Area Labor
- Federation, the State AF of L-CIO
- that same year at its statewide meeting
- put that resolution on the table and successfully
- passed a resolution by the state AF of L-CIO
- in support of marriage equality for gays and lesbian workers.
- So we ratcheted up the influence in conjunction
- with the Pride Agenda, HRC, all of the other activist groups
- that got behind marriage equality in New York state.
- In conjunction with the labor movement,
- I think collectively we were able to come together and build
- the coalition that was necessary to get both
- the legislature and the governor to support
- the concept of marriage for gays and lesbians in New York.
- But the history, people think it--
- some people who aren't as involved as you and I just
- woke up one morning and thought, oh, wow,
- god, we can get married!
- Did that just happen?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Tom, talk to me a little bit about--
- you've been in this from the '70s to present day.
- TOM PRIVITERE: Yes.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Attitude of your colleagues
- toward LGBT issues, people.
- I mean, back in the '70s, you didn't talk--
- TOM PRIVITERE: Right.
- EVELYN BAILEY: --about who you were.
- TOM PRIVITERE: Right.
- Well, I was-- actually--
- EVELYN BAILEY: You may have.
- TOM PRIVITERE: I was out at work and I was a small minority
- of labor activists who--
- there was a minority of one here in Monroe County.
- But I started identifying LGBT people and other labor
- organizations around the state, particularly
- in CSEA in New York City, people like Vivian Freind, who
- was a PEF member; Desma Holgum; Marion Frank--
- activists downstate who were open and vocal and politically
- active.
- Those people who later became activists in the New York State
- Pride Agenda before Pride Agenda was even formed.
- There were those of us in Monroe County.
- You know, I remember meeting in Tom Wall's living room.
- This is back in the '80s with Tim Mains and a few of us
- before the Pride Agenda was even formed,
- in the nascent days of building those types of organizations.
- So I think that we found each other
- and built an upstate coalition of LGBT activists
- who had already built relationships
- in other parts of the state, whether through their labor
- union or through their business or through their political
- connections.
- The formation of the gay civil rights movement
- in all of the different links were starting
- to come together and coalesce.
- And so many of us, myself included,
- became active with the Gay Alliance here.
- I was active with my union I became active with Pride Agenda
- and subsequently, in 1993, the Gay March on Washington was
- an opportunity for those of us in the labor movement from all
- across the country to get together at the march--
- and I think I mentioned that to you in our last interview--
- where we were hosted by Service Employees International Union
- headquarters in Washington D.C.
- And the then President John Sweeney
- opened up SEIU headquarters to labor activists
- from anywhere, both the public and the private sector,
- to come together and we did that.
- And we met and we formed what later
- became known as Pride at Work, which
- is a national organization of gay, lesbian, bisexual,
- and transgender labor union members.
- And in 2007, we formed our very first chapter here
- in Rochester.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Mm-hmm.
- TOM PRIVITERE: Bess Watts is the president,
- I'm the vice president.
- We now have formed and helped to form a chapter last year
- in Buffalo of Pride at Work.
- And so I proudly display that because we organized
- a very visible and vocal gay and lesbian presence officially
- within the labor movement when we formed Pride at Work,
- and we're recognized as a legitimate constituency
- group of the AF of L-CIO.
- And we're very proud of that.
- EVELYN BAILEY: What kind of opposition, though, in the '70s
- and '80s did you encounter within the labor movement
- to the concept of including LGBT people issues in the broader
- issues that would cover everyone in the union?
- TOM PRIVITERE: That's a good question.
- And I think it parallels the fact that in the '70s
- and well into the '80s, many people in our community
- were closeted.
- And so there was a lot of speculation and denial
- about the fact that there were even
- gays and lesbians in the workforce
- if you can believe that.
- And so I think the attitudes of people
- within the labor movement about how necessary it
- was for us to take into consideration legitimately,
- and I talked a little bit earlier about the coalition
- statewide in '95 of the major labor unions.
- And one union in particular, the corrections officers quite
- frankly questioned whether or not
- they even had any gays and lesbians in their bargaining
- unit.
- You know, keep in mind that I was
- working toward a coalition of unions in order
- to support our position.
- And so, you know, I use the carrot and stick approach
- and I said to them, let's assume that you
- don't have any gays and lesbians in your bargaining unit.
- Of course I knew differently.
- I've been in jails and in prisons across New York State
- and I've met members belonging to their union who
- I knew were gays and lesbians.
- But my proposal, and I think it bore out subsequently--
- and in fact, it took a lot of heat
- from gay and lesbian activists who
- struggled with the concept of extending DP people benefits
- to straight people, they said, you know,
- there were employers, quite frankly, the state included,
- who were willing to just give DP benefits to gay people.
- I resisted that.
- And I said to these corrections officers,
- "Look, I think you misunderstand my approach to this.
- I don't intend to exclude heterosexuals
- from this benefit."
- And they said, "Oh, well, in that case, we're on board."
- And as these statistics demonstrated after the fact,
- a lot more heterosexuals took advantage of DP benefits
- because there are more of them-- just
- numerically they outnumber us in every state,
- in every level of society, so to alienate
- them would have done no good.
- To argue with them that yes indeed, they
- did have gays and lesbians in their bargaining unit
- would have done no good.
- And so it wasn't as important to me
- that I convince straight allies that they
- had gay people in their unions, it was much more
- important that I convince them that this was a human rights
- issue, a worker rights issue, and whether you are
- gay or straight, black or white, male or female,
- everybody was covered under the union umbrella.
- That was a concept that they could embrace.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Mm-hmm.
- TOM PRIVITERE: Because quite frankly, you know,
- women in the labor movement have had the same types
- of experiences of isolation and discrimination
- in positions of leadership.
- You know, the Family Medical Leave Act,
- taking into consideration quite frankly
- that, you know, the vast majority of employees
- in and outside of unions who need
- to take care of their families during pregnancies and so on
- were women.
- Women workers.
- Pay equity.
- You know, to this day, women in this country make $0.70
- on the dollar less than their male counterparts.
- So, you know, there's still wage disparities-- gender
- in wage disparities.
- We certainly haven't leveled the playing field totally
- for gays and lesbians in the labor movement because
- of the Federal Defense of Marriage Act, which effectively
- precludes the federal government from recognizing
- for tax purposes, even those gay and lesbian people who
- within their own particular state can legally marry.
- So the fight isn't over, you know?
- It began with DP benefits and before
- and after that, you know, we got marriage equality in New York
- State, but until the Federal Defense of Marriage Act
- is struck down, the federal government will not
- recognize us as full-fledged citizens
- under the law for purposes of taxing.
- EVELYN BAILEY: In New York, you certainly worked
- on building the coalitions that were
- necessary to gain the benefits for all that were fair, just,
- legal.
- TOM PRIVITERE: Mm-hmm.
- Correct.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And to build a sentiment of equality
- that certainly carried through to 2011.
- TOM PRIVITERE: Oh yes.
- EVELYN BAILEY: OK?
- What is the relationship between the New York State
- Federation of Labor Unions and the National labor union
- movement?
- I mean, we've seen in Chicago an attempt to break the union.
- We've seen in Detroit an attempt to break the union
- and undermine the power that unions have.
- TOM PRIVITERE: Yeah, Michigan just passed its right--
- it became a Right to Work State, which effectively has crippled
- labor organizing in the State of Michigan to the extent that--
- labor unions along with other progressive movements
- in this country I think find themselves under attack
- by the right, by the very vocal and very active and very
- virulent conservative groups in this country.
- So make no mistake about it--
- I think this is class warfare.
- The relationship between the labor community in New York
- State, particularly the LGBT labor community in New York
- State, and LGBT activists nationwide
- is strong and growing.
- We in this past fall--
- in September-- held our Pride at Work convention in Cleveland.
- It was called Boots on the Ground,
- and there were hundreds of LGBT activists at our convention.
- And one of the objectives of having the convention in Ohio,
- quite frankly, was to provide support and--
- we dedicated one of the three days of the convention
- toward registering people to vote in the state of Ohio,
- because we knew it was a swing state.
- And we also knew that this federal government
- under President Obama has demonstrated and proven
- to be a voice at the federal level
- for gay and lesbian rights and equality
- that quite frankly we've never seen
- the like of as a community.
- His repeal of Don't Ask, Don't Tell, his position
- to the attorney general's office to stop prosecuting, you know,
- the Don't Ask, Don't Tell cases before the repeal even went
- through demonstrated to me as an LGBT activist
- that it was important for us as a community,
- it was important for the future for LGBT people in this country
- to maintain the policies that Obama had set forth.
- And toward the end of his campaign,
- he openly came out and supported the concept
- of marriage equality for LGBT people nationally.
- So it was a no-brainer for us in the LGBT component of the labor
- community nationwide that we had to get
- behind this administration.
- We had to make sure that the macrocosm of what
- happened in the mid '90s, when we went
- from a Democratic administration to a Republican administration,
- the first thing they did was rescind
- anti-discrimination policies against gays
- and lesbians in the workforce here in New York.
- And so, you know, we take two steps forward
- and one step back.
- We get domestic partner benefits but they tax us.
- We get marriage equality but we have DOMA.
- So, you know, we're a people, who like many other groups
- in this country who have been undervalued
- or whether they've been actively or covertly discriminated
- against, have learned lessons from our past.
- And we know that it takes patience
- and perseverance and hard work and dedication and building
- bridges, you know, because there are so few of us.
- We have to rely on relationships that we build in coalitions
- that we build, whether it's with the labor movement
- or whether it's with a particular political party
- or a segment of that peculiar political party,
- we know which side our bread is buttered on.
- We know who our friends are and we know who our foes are.
- And sometimes it appears that people that we formerly
- thought we could count on, haven't been there for us
- when the rubber hit the road, but it's
- a very, very important, I think, for us as a community to keep
- our eye on the prize.
- And while I think we all take great pride and satisfaction
- in the few states and the District of Columbia
- that have passed marriage equality, what we also
- have to remember is that there are something
- like forty-five states in this union where it's
- either prohibited or illegal, you
- know, for LGBT people to marry.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- TOM PRIVITERE: So while I think it's important for us
- to recognize our gains, we can't sit on our laurels
- and stop here.
- There's much more work to be done.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Have you personally ever experienced
- discrimination because of being a gay man?
- TOM PRIVITERE: In my early career--
- I think I mentioned this to you at our last meeting.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- TOM PRIVITERE: I worked for the police department and the court
- system for eleven years.
- And I remember vividly--
- I was a civilian working in the police department
- and I vividly recall a police officer
- was actually terminated back then because--
- I don't know the specifics of how he was outed
- or how they discovered that he was gay,
- but he was fired from the police force.
- What people of our generation remember
- is that being gay or being discovered to be gay
- could cost you your job.
- There were no protections for us as gay people.
- And in fact, it wasn't until 2002
- in this state that the SONDA--
- Sexual Orientation Non-Discrimination Act--
- was passed.
- So, you know, it's ten years ago I could
- have been fired from my job--
- even at this job--
- for being gay, and I would have had no legal recourse
- in the State of New York.
- Despite all of the things that we've
- gained in union contracts, despite all
- of the things that we've gained now with marriage equality,
- it wasn't that long ago that I could
- have been fired from my job.
- And so what I did when I finished my college degree,
- I did what a lot of other gay people did--
- I actually went to hairdressing school
- and got a license, a beautician's license
- to practice cosmetology, because I realized
- that if they found out I was gay on the job,
- I could have been fired from my job.
- And I had to have some means of support and back up.
- And, you know, that's certainly no way to live.
- And so knowing that that could have happened to me when
- I got into a position where I realized
- I could make a meaningful contribution to the disparity
- and the inequity in employment that faced all of us,
- it wasn't a question of if I should, but of course I would.
- And so, you know, as I look back over my career
- and the opportunities I've had to make a difference for myself
- and other LGBT people, you know, I have a son who is also gay.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Mm-hmm
- TOM PRIVITERE: Who by happenstance and good luck
- has found himself a husband whom he loves and is very proud of
- and he's extremely happy with.
- And, you know, unfortunately, my son and his husband
- weren't able to marry in New York State.
- They went to Connecticut, you know, three years ago.
- And then I guess my point is that whether there's something
- personal for us to gain by fighting for rights
- and equality for gays and lesbians
- because we happen to have a family member who is gay,
- or whether or not we have an obligation
- to look at future generations, whether we're related to them
- or not, and say that the injustices that we
- experienced-- the fear, the anxiety, the discrimination,
- the violence, it has to stop.
- And the fight, the struggle has to continue.
- And I'm so proud of you, Evelyn, for doing
- this, because I think it's human nature for people who
- have experienced trauma, fear, rejection,
- discrimination to try to move on with their lives
- and put those things behind them,
- but it's also important for us to remember where we came from
- and what we've been through so that future generations
- understand that their freedoms, their protections,
- their inclusion in society isn't something that they should take
- for granted.
- And so if there is a message for future LGBT people,
- it's that while ten years from now
- or twenty years from now, the things that we found
- so critical to fight in and go to the wall about that they may
- be taking for granted as full-fledged citizens
- of this country.
- I look ahead to what's current today,
- which is the issue of immigration and the issue
- whether or not millions of people in this country who are
- second-class citizens, migrant workers who are farm workers
- who are excluded from the basic protections and the laws that
- many of us take for granted--
- you know, a forty-hour work week, overtime, safe
- working conditions-- those are a huge segment of our population
- who are excluded from basic protections.
- So if there's one thing that I would
- say to a gay or lesbian person who may listen to this twenty
- years from now, forty years from now, a hundred years from now,
- if there are people in society who are considered less than
- or who need to have an advocate for their plight,
- it's incumbent upon us as gays and lesbians
- to remember that there was a time when
- we needed to reach out to people and ask them
- for help in our struggle.
- That's a message I'd like to send to gay and lesbian kids,
- because I already see--
- and I'm happy for them, it's a huge sea change from the fear
- and paranoia and terror that we experienced as young people
- and growing up in a society that, you know,
- hated us for who we were.
- So the day will come when gay and lesbian kids will
- be, you know, part of the mainstream and nobody will
- think anything of it.
- But I would hope that if they saw injustice
- and they saw inequity and they saw disparity
- for any group of people in this country,
- that they'd be the first ones to jump in and say this is wrong
- and this must stop.
- EVELYN BAILEY: That's a good hope.
- And I'm not cynical enough to say that that won't happen,
- but I do think maturity plays a large part in taking up
- the plight of someone else and life experience.
- TOM PRIVITERE: Sure.
- EVELYN BAILEY: In In 2002 when SONDA passed, would you
- identify that as a shift in attitude?
- Necessitated by law, but certainly
- a shift so that fear of losing your job, fear
- of being discriminated against not only in employment
- but in housing and in other areas changed?
- TOM PRIVITERE: I don't think so.
- I think just because a law is passed
- doesn't mean that attitudes shift
- and automatically overnight protections
- that the law provides are guaranteed.
- In fact, people always try to find a way around a law.
- So while it's a beginning, and it certainly
- is important for us to seek legislation and seek
- legal protections, you know, until we change
- hearts and minds of people, the laws
- are just a stepping stone for us to achieve
- what we would hope would be equality within the society.
- A recognition that we have a right to live and to exist.
- That simply because a law was passed
- didn't automatically overnight mean
- that attitudes had changed.
- Violations of their-- you know, laws
- are made to guide society and protect people
- within the society from injustice, but as we all know,
- laws are broken every single day.
- You know, there are laws against murder and genocide,
- but people still, you know, kill other people.
- And I don't mean to equate our plight with that,
- but it happens, you know?
- And so we have to do more than just
- ask the government to pass a law to protect us,
- we have to stay engaged, you know?
- We have to participate in society.
- And I think coming out is probably
- one of those the most important things any of us
- do to demonstrate to the rest of society
- that it's important that we be seen for who we are
- and what we are, and that we be accepted, you know, for who
- and what we are.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Is really what you're
- saying, the fact that the labor movement has included
- in its contracts and protections for LGBT people,
- that they're on paper only?
- And that young people today coming into the labor force
- and becoming a part of unions are
- living in a world of unreality?
- TOM PRIVITERE: No.
- I don't mean to imply that.
- I think certainly they're going to walk into a situation that
- is infinitely better than the one
- that you or I walked into thirty or forty years ago
- in the workplace.
- There certainly are many more protections
- that they have within their labor contracts
- than I did forty years ago coming into the workforce.
- But that doesn't mean that they're
- going to automatically walk into a situation where
- every single supervisor or every single boss
- accepts them at face value because they're gay.
- Because prejudices exist, whether they're
- prejudices against you because you're a woman.
- You know, women have had the vote in this country
- for almost 100 years now, but it doesn't
- mean that women are equal at the workplace.
- The same thing with LGBT people.
- I mean, the fact that there are laws protecting
- women's rights or gay rights or that there
- are contract provisions protecting rights
- doesn't mean that those contracts are always
- going to be totally adhered to.
- But there are measures.
- There are actions that you can take.
- You know, if somebody violates your civil rights,
- you can take them to court.
- If somebody violates your contractual rights,
- you can file a grievance.
- You know, there are--
- in contracts, labor contracts are
- intended to set forth the relationship
- between the employer and the employees
- that's a legal and binding, but violations occur all the time,
- and that's why every contract has
- provisions in it for addressing violations of those contracts.
- So, you know, it's not a panacea,
- it doesn't, you know, the world isn't all rosy and shiny
- and we all aren't floating around on pink clouds
- because the legislature saw fit two years ago to pass marriage
- equality in New York, or, you know, the State of New York
- agreed in 1995 to include domestic partner
- benefits in our contracts.
- The fact is that we're always growing and maturing
- and improving on human relationships,
- and that's really what it all boils down to.
- Laws and protections under laws or under contracts are just
- the beginning, you. know?
- They require that people behave in a certain way.
- But simply because they require that,
- that doesn't automatically mean that people
- are going to do that.
- So I think the short answer to your question
- is no, it isn't going to create the level playing
- field that we all would like, but it's certainly
- light years from where we were before these protections were
- put in place, before marriage equality became
- the law of the land here in New York State.
- And I'm optimistic that the building blocks that we've
- set into place are now--
- I mean, if you use the analogy of a Lego,
- one piece is connected to another piece and, you know,
- there's a foundation that we've established.
- Are we at the pinnacle?
- No.
- But, you know, to quote Martin Luther King,
- you know, I've been to the mountaintop
- and I can see that we have come closer
- to full equality in this country and in this state.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Are the building blocks
- independent of the people in charge
- or in leadership positions in the Union?
- TOM PRIVITERE: Yeah, I think they are.
- I think it would be very, very difficult
- for successive administrations to unilaterally try
- to undo in the labor movement what we have collectively
- been able achieve.
- Similarly, you know, I think--
- and we see today with marriage equality--
- the issue had been at one point in time from our detractors,
- well, you're achieving these by legislative fiat.
- The people haven't spoken.
- Every time this comes up and it goes before the people,
- the people vote it down.
- Well that's now proven to be untrue.
- The last three states where marriage equality occurred,
- it occurred as a result of people in those states
- actually voting for something as opposed
- to the opposition voting against us.
- And again, to your point, those building blocks
- that were formed by those states that required marriage
- equality as a result of going through their governor
- or their legislature to achieve have created the Petri
- dish or the foundation for other states
- to successively and successfully go
- to the people in those states and say,
- this is the right thing to do.
- And again, you know, is it happening as quickly
- as we would like to?
- No.
- Has it happened more quickly than any of us
- ever expected it to?
- Yes!
- So, you know, there's a yin and a yang to this in a balance
- that I think we're--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Well certainly for New York
- the time was right.
- We had political, labor, business leadership,
- TOM PRIVITERE: Faith communities.
- EVELYN BAILEY: --political, faith communities all on board.
- And the coalitions that were built
- within each of those entities came over time.
- TOM PRIVITERE: Exactly.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And that's the piece
- that I think is so critical.
- That you cannot-- you have to build on little things and take
- small steps before you take major steps.
- TOM PRIVITERE: Well, and I also think that it's important
- to recognize that we don't--
- if we look at these coalitions, we
- don't look at them in isolation.
- For example, I'm a gay man and a member of the gay community,
- but I'm also a labor activist.
- I'm also a person of faith.
- You know, I have a church, so I think
- that like everything else, we're not a monolithic community that
- doesn't have links to other aspects of these what we call
- coalition groups, you know?
- I'm also very active and have been in democratic politics,
- you know?
- I was a town leader, I was part of the executive committee
- of the Democratic Party, I've worked on campaigns
- as a campaign manager.
- So, you know, the political aspect of this
- can't be overestimated.
- And so as a gay man, as an activist
- in the labor community, I was also an activist
- in the political community.
- So we wear very many hats.
- And so when I approach politicians
- about promoting legislation that enhances
- the benefits and the rights of our community, you know,
- I take my "I'm a director of PEF Field Services"
- hat to the table; oh, "I was the leader of the Democratic
- Committee in the Town of Pittsburgh" hat to the table;
- oh, "I've worked on political campaigns for colleagues
- of yours who you now work with in the assembly or the state
- senate or in the judiciary."
- And so, you know, people will look at me and say, oh yeah,
- he works for a union.
- Well, I do my much more than just work for a union.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
- And I think what you're really saying
- is that because of all of those connections,
- you have the ability to affect change on a broader basis.
- TOM PRIVITERE: Yes.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And you have the ability
- to influence other constituents to move in a direction that
- promotes justice and equality, not only in the workplace,
- but in society.
- TOM PRIVITERE: Correct.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And And you cannot be afraid to be who you
- are in that.
- TOM PRIVITERE: I think that's the key.
- My philosophy is fighting the fear.
- And the notion that I should be caused to live life in fear--
- in fear of being outed, in fear of being unemployed,
- in fear of being physically attacked, which in fact I was.
- Back in the '80s there were a lot of gay bashings.
- So I'm on Monroe Avenue and my then partner
- and I were confronted and attacked.
- And I fought back.
- And, you know, it was a time when, unfortunately the police
- turned a blind eye.
- The police force in the '80s turned a blind eye
- to assaults against gays and lesbians in this city.
- And so I think that was a seminal moment for me.
- It was the early '80s.
- You know, I was a bit complacent because I thought,
- you know, I lived in a very gay-friendly neighborhood.
- You know, the Park Avenue, Harvard Street area.
- But I think, Evelyn, that that, like so many other things
- in my life, were instrumental in me recognizing
- that until the streets were safe for all of us,
- they weren't safe for any of us.
- In the labor movement, we said, you know, an injury to one
- is an injury to all.
- And so those concepts that I've acquired in a lifetime of--
- there were years when I was closeted in the early '70s.
- And when I came out of the closet to my family
- and to my employer and to the world,
- it gave me a sense of freedom from the fear.
- And there's a saying that I heard once before--
- fear is-- you know, face everything and recover or fuck
- everything and run.
- You can take either one of those two, and I choose not to run.
- Yeah, the fear.
- The fighting the fear.
- And I understand that for many of us, young or old,
- that fear is something real and tangible.
- But we're not unique.
- EVELYN BAILEY: No.
- TOM PRIVITERE: You know, it's a human condition,
- it's not a gay thing or a straight thing.
- It's not a male thing or a female thing.
- You know, either you look at what you're afraid of
- and face it or you spend the rest of your life cowering.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Looking over your shoulder.
- TOM PRIVITERE: Yeah.
- And I'm proud of being part of the gay and lesbian, bisexual,
- transgender community in the 21st century.
- I'm proud of my people and what all of us
- have achieved collectively.
- You know, getting on buses year after year
- and schlepping to Albany and walking
- into legislators' offices and having
- doors slammed in our face year after year after year.
- You know, I think for a less dedicated or resolute people,
- it may have discouraged us, but it didn't and it hasn't.
- And the doors are now--
- some them are still closed, but many of them have opened.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yes, and there's another caveat that
- says at least in the spiritual life, you keep knocking.
- And you knock alone, then you knock with two,
- then you knock with three, then you knock with four.
- And eventually, the numbers knocking have to be heard.
- And you I think have certainly led a number of people
- to knock.
- And you have inspired a number of people
- to become involved in not only the labor
- movement, but the gay liberation movement so that--
- TOM PRIVITERE: Oh, that's very kind of you.
- I think for me, I see the things that I've done
- and the work that I've been engaged in as a collective,
- you know?
- It's not something that I've done,
- it's something that we've done.
- And I think inspiring people only
- happens when you demonstrate that you're willing to go
- to the wall, you know?
- That you're willing to walk the walk and not just
- talk the talk.
- And I say this with humility--
- I have walked the walk.
- I don't ever ask anybody to do or say or stand
- if I'm not willing to do it myself,
- so I think it's important that that distinction be made--
- I haven't done any of this on my own.
- I've always had people at my back and at my side
- and we've done this collectively.
- And there may be individual people who maybe, you know,
- they've shown up a little bit more than others,
- but that's sometimes a blessing for those of us who have--
- either they're fortunate enough to be in positions
- where their voice can be heard over others, which I have been.
- You know, I've been fortunate that my career path coincided
- with the capacity and the ability
- to make change for our community.
- But, you know, it's not the only reason
- I got involved in this business.
- It's because justice, you know, for working people,
- for people who have no voice was important to me.
- And the fact that I knew as a gay person in the society
- that justice was not being afforded to people like me,
- I think that was part of--
- you know, which came first?
- The chicken or the egg?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- TOM PRIVITERE: I don't know and it doesn't really
- matter to me anymore.
- What I do know is that whenever I see somebody that needs help,
- I try to extend my hand and help them in.
- And particularly when it comes to people whose--
- the disabled, whose voices don't ring loudly enough
- in our society.
- And that's why I said earlier, I would
- hope that future generations of LGBT youth, when
- the crises of life are no longer for them realities
- as they were for us, that they don't forget.
- And that's why I want to, again, thank you for doing this,
- because it's so critical for people moving forward
- to understand what happened.
- It's just, you know, human memory.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- TOM PRIVITERE: I think it's a natural thing for us to want
- to put behind the trauma, the fear and the fight
- and the struggle, because it's an exhausting thing
- to keep focusing on the negative,
- but sometimes it's important for us to--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Well, I think when all is said and done,
- we each move out of our own experience
- and we move out of our discomfort, and many of us
- internalize that sense of not being accepted or not
- being welcomed or not being OK.
- And it doesn't any longer stop us, it is what propels us.
- TOM PRIVITERE: Yes, it's what motivates us, yeah, yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And what I think with every generation we need
- to remember is, the process of coming out is the same
- and gay men and women reflect more on that process
- and more on who they are than 99% of the population.
- And in that, the leadership, the role models,
- the people who have gone before them become
- critical to their own journey because they observe and they
- see--
- they overcame it, I can overcome it.
- They moved, I can move.
- And one of the titles--
- if I can use that word--
- that has been ascribed to you for many, many, many, many
- years is you are a mover and a shaker.
- TOM PRIVITERE: Well.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And for that, this community
- owes you a debt of gratitude.
- TOM PRIVITERE: Wow, that's very nice of you to say, but--
- EVELYN BAILEY: And I know you haven't done it alone.
- TOM PRIVITERE: Right.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And I know you haven't been there by yourself,
- but there is an energy created by people
- who have at their core a sense of what is right
- and a sense of what needs to be done
- and a sense of what needs to be righted.
- TOM PRIVITERE: Very well put, Evelyn, yeah.
- Very well put.
- Thank you.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And you and the labor community
- and other people have taken up the gauntlet
- and moved that forward much further than people realize.
- TOM PRIVITERE: Yeah, and I think that's
- true of any social justice movement.
- That when you're engaged--
- when you're engaged in the fight, when you're
- in the middle of the storm, your peripheral vision kind of gets
- blocked.
- And so time passes and you're focused on an objective
- and it's really easy not to notice that to the right of you
- and to the left of you is somebody walking the path
- with you.
- But I knew that I wasn't alone.
- And the things, small things-- and I've talked a little bit
- about this, I'm sure other people that you've interviewed
- have too--
- things like the Gay Alliance, the old Gay Alliance on Monroe
- Avenue above the co-op--
- that old fire station, you know?
- That was a couple of rooms with a sofa or two--
- a place for us to gather that wasn't a bar
- became so important, you know?
- Just a place for us--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- TOM PRIVITERE: --that we could go to be safe with each other
- among each other.
- And then that evolved into the building on Atlantic Avenue,
- and then that evolved into what we now know as the GAGV.
- And so yeah, there are moments in these movements when
- somebody had the idea to get that place and somebody had
- to provide the furniture and somebody, you know--
- and I'm so grateful for those people,
- and it meant so much to me back then to have a place to go.
- And so I think when my time came to do something
- and to be part of the movement, again,
- it was a series I think of coincidences, you know?
- I got an offer for this job and then when I took this job
- and there was a caucus and the caucus was active
- and I became-- ooh, wow, how exciting!
- So, you know, I saw opportunities to make change
- and I thought, wow, this is great.
- This is what I want to do.
- But I didn't create the opportunities,
- I saw them when they became available
- and I jumped in, you know?
- So I wasn't more--
- I don't know if mover and shaker is an apt appellation.
- I think more that when an opportunity presented itself
- for me to be an activist, I seized it.
- EVELYN BAILEY: You certainly seized the moment.
- TOM PRIVITERE: I did.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Carpe diem.
- TOM PRIVITERE: I carpe'd the diem, yes, there you go, yes.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Well Tom, thank you very much--
- TOM PRIVITERE: Thank you, Evelyn.
- EVELYN BAILEY: --for the interview.
- And--
- TOM PRIVITERE: Hopefully this one actually came out.