Audio Interview, Thomas Privitere, January 3, 2013

  • EVELYN BAILEY: So I'm here with Tom Privitere on January 3rd,
  • 2013.
  • And Tom gave me some statistics from 2007.
  • And what they indicate is that domestic partnership benefits
  • really benefited heterosexual couples more
  • than same-sex couples for the State of New York
  • when those benefits were put into effect.
  • And since, Governor Pataki, by executive order,
  • made domestic partnership benefits
  • available to state workers.
  • TOM PRIVITERE: Actually, it was Governor Cuomo.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Governor Cuomo.
  • With the prospective Republican regime coming in in 19--
  • TOM PRIVITERE: 1995.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: 1995, it was important to have
  • the heterosexual population included
  • in the domestic partnership benefits
  • in order to offer greater protection
  • for that benefit for all.
  • Now Tom has been involved with the Union forever.
  • TOM PRIVITERE: (Laughs) Close to forever.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: No, I think he's that old.
  • But-- when did you begin?
  • TOM PRIVITERE: I began my career in the labor movement
  • officially in 1978.
  • I was a field representative for the American Federation
  • of State, County and Municipal Employees,
  • so I negotiated contracts for them, handled their grievances
  • and arbitrations here in actually Monroe County
  • and surrounding counties.
  • And so at the time, I represented
  • cities school district employees in the City of Rochester
  • and the non-teaching employees of the city schools
  • in Rochester.
  • And as an advocate and as a practitioner in labor relations
  • here in the region, in Monroe county and in Rochester,
  • it became glaringly apparent to me as a gay man
  • that one of the major benefits that heterosexual married
  • couples enjoyed that gay couples did not was health insurance.
  • Things that affected families in the labor contracts
  • didn't include gay families or how we defined ourselves
  • as families.
  • And so I began quite consciously an effort
  • to raise this with my colleagues in both AFSCME
  • and another labor unions.
  • Again, this is, you know, in the mid-to-late 1970s,
  • and talking about gay issues in the labor community
  • was not a very popular thing to do.
  • However, in 1985, I left the AFSCME's employ
  • and became a staff director, regional staff director
  • for the New York State Public Employees Federation,
  • which is a labor union representing, oh,
  • tens of thousands of professional
  • scientific and technical people who worked for the state.
  • As the regional staff director, my territory
  • included now not just Monroe County and surrounding counties
  • for AFSCME, but I was supervising
  • field offices in Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, south
  • of Cornell, and Binghamton.
  • So my--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Wow.
  • TOM PRIVITERE: You know, my territory expanded,
  • my job changed, and concurrently,
  • my influence within the labor community.
  • I shot up a little bit, yeah.
  • And to my delight, what I discovered
  • in PEF, which was very progressive in its attitudes
  • about its gay and lesbian members,
  • was that they actually had a gay and lesbian caucus
  • within PEF who were advocating for things that I had been
  • discussing ten years before that very quietly
  • among my colleagues, which were the disparities in union
  • benefits between straight employees and gay employees.
  • And again, to my delight, I found
  • a very active and very vocal caucus
  • of gays and lesbians who were state employees, who
  • were members of PEF, who themselves had been advocating
  • that the Union start looking at the disparities between what
  • their heterosexual counterparts and their agencies
  • or offices or respective jobs were versus what they
  • as gays and lesbians saw to be lacking.
  • The primary concern for them was the disparity
  • in health insurance for their partners.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Mm-hmm
  • TOM PRIVITERE: Keep in mind, at the time, that domestic partner
  • benefits had been extended to New York City employees
  • back in the early '90s by Mayor Dinkins.
  • And Governor Cuomo, when he was governor of New York State,
  • had extended domestic partner benefits to state employees
  • by executive order in 1994 this happened.
  • A year later, when George Pataki became governor as a Republican
  • with a more conservative perspective,
  • he was joined by then Dennis Vacco,
  • who became the attorney general of the State of New York--
  • also a Republican.
  • And Vacco's first action as attorney general
  • was to rescind what had been a longstanding practice
  • in that agency of nondiscrimination policy
  • against gays and lesbians.
  • So Vacco took active steps immediately
  • upon becoming attorney general to backpedal
  • on what we had seen as under Democratic administrations
  • some progressive and liberal perspectives about gays
  • and lesbians, particularly with respect to nondiscrimination
  • against us in our employment.
  • So as soon as Vacco did that, it was--
  • we were simultaneously negotiating contracts
  • with other unions across the state.
  • And I became concerned and I think understandably,
  • that Governor Pataki might in fact backpedal and rescind
  • what Governor Cuomo had just passed the year before,
  • which was domestic partner benefits for gays and lesbians
  • in state employment.
  • So we were at the negotiating table
  • and we formed a coalition on health care bargaining.
  • And during those discussions with my counterparts
  • in other labor unions, I was able to convince them
  • that it was in our collective interest
  • to negotiate this benefit into our contracts
  • because the executive order of one governor
  • can be rescinded by a new governor,
  • and the difference is that if we negotiated the benefit
  • into our contracts, the only way that they
  • could eliminate those benefits is
  • if they negotiated them away.
  • And so--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Now let me stop you for just a minute.
  • The domestic partnership benefits
  • that came in by executive order were for all--
  • TOM PRIVITERE: All state employees.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Heterosexual--
  • TOM PRIVITERE: And gays.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And gays.
  • TOM PRIVITERE: Yes.
  • And And so you were also advocating for that same--
  • TOM PRIVITERE: Yes.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: --broad spectrum--
  • TOM PRIVITERE: The same standard to be applied in the contracts.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: For heterosexuals and gays?
  • TOM PRIVITERE: Mm-hmm.
  • Because--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: What other unions are we talking about?
  • TOM PRIVITERE: We're talking about UUP, the United
  • University Professors; the AFSCME Council TC-37, which
  • represented at the time correction officers in prisons;
  • CSEA, Civil Service Employees Association,
  • and they represented the bulk of state employees
  • who are nonprofessional.
  • At the time, PEF in 1995 had approximately 58,000 members.
  • CSEA was probably somewhere around 200 to 225,000.
  • So the vast majority--
  • numerically-- of state workers at the time were CSEA numbers.
  • So they were the big dog at the table.
  • And then along with PEF and UUP and the corrections officers,
  • we represented the balance of the state workforce.
  • So, you know, we're talking over a quarter
  • of a million employees.
  • And the issues were at the time--
  • and over time, we've all seen what
  • the unions knew in those days was that health insurance was
  • going to become increasingly the more and more important
  • issue for both public and private sector labor unions
  • in upcoming contracts.
  • And in the mid '90s, we had already
  • experienced probably in the preceding ten years
  • an escalation in health insurance costs.
  • So health insurance benefits became the litmus test for us
  • on whether we could actively include gay people in the mix
  • when we were talking about employee benefits.
  • And that plus other benefits that
  • are associated with married couples and families.
  • Leave, for example, bereavement leave,
  • leave for family illness.
  • Our families were not included in those definitions.
  • And so if I had a domestic partner
  • and one of my partner's parents died,
  • I would not be entitled under the bereavement leave
  • in our contracts to attend the funeral
  • under the bereavement leave language
  • because the contract didn't recognize my domestic partner
  • and our relationship as family.
  • And so it wasn't just health insurance,
  • but we were looking at other elements of the contract that
  • provided benefits to married couples
  • that we were by definition excluded from.
  • So we made some serious inroads in the mid '90s
  • and in our collective bargaining agreements
  • to ensure that LGBT members were protected to the extent
  • that we could in our contracts, and I
  • think that that was one of the crowning achievements
  • in the mid '90s.
  • And I've said to people before that DP benefits
  • and the bargaining of DP benefits into labor contracts
  • was really the foundation and the forerunner to our arguments
  • for marriage equality.
  • And there are links between all of the political considerations
  • that we made at the level of state legislators
  • and state senators who--
  • because we don't do this in a vacuum.
  • Negotiations doesn't happen just between the governor
  • and the president of the union.
  • There are backstories to how these things-- how
  • supportive the legislature was and had been.
  • For example, when Governor Cuomo issued the executive order
  • to grant domestic partner benefits to gays and lesbians
  • in state employment, clearly he had
  • to have support from key members of his party
  • and the legislature.
  • And subsequently, when we were negotiating our contracts,
  • we had to make sure that we had dotted the I's and crossed
  • the T's with assemblymen and state senators
  • and political activists who understood that the--
  • because budgets had to be passed in conjunction
  • with these contracts.
  • Budgets have to be passed by the legislature.
  • So we can't talk about these things
  • without being aware that those of us in the LGBT movement who
  • were involved politically used our political influence
  • with those people in the legislature
  • to support the governor and his move
  • to settle contracts with the state workforce, which included
  • benefits specifically enhancing the work
  • lives of gay and lesbian employees.
  • So the links had to be there.
  • So those were behind the scenes activities that a lot of people
  • don't realize happened.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Now those links were primarily
  • developed, though, through democratic administrations?
  • TOM PRIVITERE: Yes.
  • I think-- but I think that it's also fair to say that there
  • were some progressive Republicans who had--
  • we had to form coalitions with.
  • I mean, it would be naive for us to think
  • that politically we could only rely on one particular party
  • to carry the mission statement and the goals forward.
  • But it was primarily Democrats in the early and mid '90s
  • who were supportive of our issues.
  • In fact, here locally, the very first democratic town
  • supervisor who contacted me after we successfully
  • negotiated DP benefits at the state level was Sandy Frankel.
  • And so you see on that list the town of Brighton
  • was the first and continuous to be the only town
  • government that provides domestic partner benefits.
  • Now to be fair, the town of Brighton,
  • not unlike some other jurisdictions,
  • only wanted to extend those benefits
  • to gay and lesbian employees.
  • But, keep in mind that this was in the context years
  • later of us actually reaching the point where marriage
  • equality was on the horizon.
  • And so the irony is that now that DP benefits were broadly
  • applied to the state workforce, fast
  • forward to the early 2000s--
  • 2003, 2004, 2005.
  • And in 2006, the Rochester Area Labor Federation--
  • the labor council, the local labor council--
  • passed the very first resolution of its kind
  • in New York State supporting the concept of marriage
  • equality for gays and lesbians.
  • And I don't think it's an overestimation for me
  • to say that if it weren't for the labor
  • movement in its early and vocal intangible support for rights
  • for gays and lesbians in the workforce,
  • that the later fight for marriage equality
  • wouldn't have been as successful in the laws, because I think
  • we had already done the leg work on convincing them
  • about equality in the workplace in terms of benefit
  • levels like health insurance, like bereavement leave,
  • like family medical leave.
  • So we had already primed the pump
  • as it were politically to support the concept
  • of domestic partner benefits.
  • It wasn't a quantum leap for many of these same legislators
  • in governmental agencies when the concept of marriage
  • equality came down the pike for the unions
  • to get behind marriage equality as a civil rights and a worker
  • rights issue.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
  • TOM PRIVITERE: Because one of the things I'd
  • like to point out is that many people don't realize
  • that while domestic partner benefits did
  • secure to some extent a measure of equality,
  • it was not equality, because domestic partner benefits
  • are taxed.
  • So for people who are married, for example, legally married,
  • and they have health insurance spousal benefits for a husband
  • and/or wife, those benefits are not
  • taxed by the federal government because the federal government
  • actually recognizes the legal marriage.
  • Domestic partner benefits, however, came in
  • under a separate tax category.
  • The government looked at DP benefits
  • as exactly that-- a benefit accruing
  • to the employee who then extends that benefit
  • to their domestic partner.
  • And so they taxed the value of those premiums
  • as if they were a fringe benefit that gay people were--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
  • TOM PRIVITERE: So it was not a level playing field
  • by any stretch of the imagination.
  • And so the fight then became a different type of battle for us
  • because we argued that it was separate and unequal for DP
  • benefits.
  • Because marriage, which didn't exist
  • in New York State at the time, was something that we really
  • had to fight for.
  • And so the unions--
  • and the union particularly in Monroe county
  • here in Rochester--
  • by this time, I found myself surrounded
  • by more and more LGBT activists in the labor movement.
  • Bess Watts comes to mind.
  • Ove Overmeyer.
  • You know, the people who are the unsung heroes and heroines
  • of this whole movement began to become activists
  • in their own unions.
  • And so I got a lot more support as time
  • went on from my colleagues who also
  • happened to be gay and lesbian in other labor unions.
  • So in 2006, which was a little more than ten years
  • after we negotiated the DP benefits,
  • the time was ripe for us to use the labor community and all
  • the power and all the influence it had politically
  • to get behind the marriage equality movement.
  • And so subsequent to that resolution in 2006,
  • that was passed by the Rochester Area Labor
  • Federation, the State AF of L-CIO
  • that same year at its statewide meeting
  • put that resolution on the table and successfully
  • passed a resolution by the state AF of L-CIO
  • in support of marriage equality for gays and lesbian workers.
  • So we ratcheted up the influence in conjunction
  • with the Pride Agenda, HRC, all of the other activist groups
  • that got behind marriage equality in New York state.
  • In conjunction with the labor movement,
  • I think collectively we were able to come together and build
  • the coalition that was necessary to get both
  • the legislature and the governor to support
  • the concept of marriage for gays and lesbians in New York.
  • But the history, people think it--
  • some people who aren't as involved as you and I just
  • woke up one morning and thought, oh, wow,
  • god, we can get married!
  • Did that just happen?
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Tom, talk to me a little bit about--
  • you've been in this from the '70s to present day.
  • TOM PRIVITERE: Yes.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Attitude of your colleagues
  • toward LGBT issues, people.
  • I mean, back in the '70s, you didn't talk--
  • TOM PRIVITERE: Right.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: --about who you were.
  • TOM PRIVITERE: Right.
  • Well, I was-- actually--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: You may have.
  • TOM PRIVITERE: I was out at work and I was a small minority
  • of labor activists who--
  • there was a minority of one here in Monroe County.
  • But I started identifying LGBT people and other labor
  • organizations around the state, particularly
  • in CSEA in New York City, people like Vivian Freind, who
  • was a PEF member; Desma Holgum; Marion Frank--
  • activists downstate who were open and vocal and politically
  • active.
  • Those people who later became activists in the New York State
  • Pride Agenda before Pride Agenda was even formed.
  • There were those of us in Monroe County.
  • You know, I remember meeting in Tom Wall's living room.
  • This is back in the '80s with Tim Mains and a few of us
  • before the Pride Agenda was even formed,
  • in the nascent days of building those types of organizations.
  • So I think that we found each other
  • and built an upstate coalition of LGBT activists
  • who had already built relationships
  • in other parts of the state, whether through their labor
  • union or through their business or through their political
  • connections.
  • The formation of the gay civil rights movement
  • in all of the different links were starting
  • to come together and coalesce.
  • And so many of us, myself included,
  • became active with the Gay Alliance here.
  • I was active with my union I became active with Pride Agenda
  • and subsequently, in 1993, the Gay March on Washington was
  • an opportunity for those of us in the labor movement from all
  • across the country to get together at the march--
  • and I think I mentioned that to you in our last interview--
  • where we were hosted by Service Employees International Union
  • headquarters in Washington D.C.
  • And the then President John Sweeney
  • opened up SEIU headquarters to labor activists
  • from anywhere, both the public and the private sector,
  • to come together and we did that.
  • And we met and we formed what later
  • became known as Pride at Work, which
  • is a national organization of gay, lesbian, bisexual,
  • and transgender labor union members.
  • And in 2007, we formed our very first chapter here
  • in Rochester.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Mm-hmm.
  • TOM PRIVITERE: Bess Watts is the president,
  • I'm the vice president.
  • We now have formed and helped to form a chapter last year
  • in Buffalo of Pride at Work.
  • And so I proudly display that because we organized
  • a very visible and vocal gay and lesbian presence officially
  • within the labor movement when we formed Pride at Work,
  • and we're recognized as a legitimate constituency
  • group of the AF of L-CIO.
  • And we're very proud of that.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: What kind of opposition, though, in the '70s
  • and '80s did you encounter within the labor movement
  • to the concept of including LGBT people issues in the broader
  • issues that would cover everyone in the union?
  • TOM PRIVITERE: That's a good question.
  • And I think it parallels the fact that in the '70s
  • and well into the '80s, many people in our community
  • were closeted.
  • And so there was a lot of speculation and denial
  • about the fact that there were even
  • gays and lesbians in the workforce
  • if you can believe that.
  • And so I think the attitudes of people
  • within the labor movement about how necessary it
  • was for us to take into consideration legitimately,
  • and I talked a little bit earlier about the coalition
  • statewide in '95 of the major labor unions.
  • And one union in particular, the corrections officers quite
  • frankly questioned whether or not
  • they even had any gays and lesbians in their bargaining
  • unit.
  • You know, keep in mind that I was
  • working toward a coalition of unions in order
  • to support our position.
  • And so, you know, I use the carrot and stick approach
  • and I said to them, let's assume that you
  • don't have any gays and lesbians in your bargaining unit.
  • Of course I knew differently.
  • I've been in jails and in prisons across New York State
  • and I've met members belonging to their union who
  • I knew were gays and lesbians.
  • But my proposal, and I think it bore out subsequently--
  • and in fact, it took a lot of heat
  • from gay and lesbian activists who
  • struggled with the concept of extending DP people benefits
  • to straight people, they said, you know,
  • there were employers, quite frankly, the state included,
  • who were willing to just give DP benefits to gay people.
  • I resisted that.
  • And I said to these corrections officers,
  • "Look, I think you misunderstand my approach to this.
  • I don't intend to exclude heterosexuals
  • from this benefit."
  • And they said, "Oh, well, in that case, we're on board."
  • And as these statistics demonstrated after the fact,
  • a lot more heterosexuals took advantage of DP benefits
  • because there are more of them-- just
  • numerically they outnumber us in every state,
  • in every level of society, so to alienate
  • them would have done no good.
  • To argue with them that yes indeed, they
  • did have gays and lesbians in their bargaining unit
  • would have done no good.
  • And so it wasn't as important to me
  • that I convince straight allies that they
  • had gay people in their unions, it was much more
  • important that I convince them that this was a human rights
  • issue, a worker rights issue, and whether you are
  • gay or straight, black or white, male or female,
  • everybody was covered under the union umbrella.
  • That was a concept that they could embrace.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Mm-hmm.
  • TOM PRIVITERE: Because quite frankly, you know,
  • women in the labor movement have had the same types
  • of experiences of isolation and discrimination
  • in positions of leadership.
  • You know, the Family Medical Leave Act,
  • taking into consideration quite frankly
  • that, you know, the vast majority of employees
  • in and outside of unions who need
  • to take care of their families during pregnancies and so on
  • were women.
  • Women workers.
  • Pay equity.
  • You know, to this day, women in this country make $0.70
  • on the dollar less than their male counterparts.
  • So, you know, there's still wage disparities-- gender
  • in wage disparities.
  • We certainly haven't leveled the playing field totally
  • for gays and lesbians in the labor movement because
  • of the Federal Defense of Marriage Act, which effectively
  • precludes the federal government from recognizing
  • for tax purposes, even those gay and lesbian people who
  • within their own particular state can legally marry.
  • So the fight isn't over, you know?
  • It began with DP benefits and before
  • and after that, you know, we got marriage equality in New York
  • State, but until the Federal Defense of Marriage Act
  • is struck down, the federal government will not
  • recognize us as full-fledged citizens
  • under the law for purposes of taxing.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: In New York, you certainly worked
  • on building the coalitions that were
  • necessary to gain the benefits for all that were fair, just,
  • legal.
  • TOM PRIVITERE: Mm-hmm.
  • Correct.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And to build a sentiment of equality
  • that certainly carried through to 2011.
  • TOM PRIVITERE: Oh yes.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: OK?
  • What is the relationship between the New York State
  • Federation of Labor Unions and the National labor union
  • movement?
  • I mean, we've seen in Chicago an attempt to break the union.
  • We've seen in Detroit an attempt to break the union
  • and undermine the power that unions have.
  • TOM PRIVITERE: Yeah, Michigan just passed its right--
  • it became a Right to Work State, which effectively has crippled
  • labor organizing in the State of Michigan to the extent that--
  • labor unions along with other progressive movements
  • in this country I think find themselves under attack
  • by the right, by the very vocal and very active and very
  • virulent conservative groups in this country.
  • So make no mistake about it--
  • I think this is class warfare.
  • The relationship between the labor community in New York
  • State, particularly the LGBT labor community in New York
  • State, and LGBT activists nationwide
  • is strong and growing.
  • We in this past fall--
  • in September-- held our Pride at Work convention in Cleveland.
  • It was called Boots on the Ground,
  • and there were hundreds of LGBT activists at our convention.
  • And one of the objectives of having the convention in Ohio,
  • quite frankly, was to provide support and--
  • we dedicated one of the three days of the convention
  • toward registering people to vote in the state of Ohio,
  • because we knew it was a swing state.
  • And we also knew that this federal government
  • under President Obama has demonstrated and proven
  • to be a voice at the federal level
  • for gay and lesbian rights and equality
  • that quite frankly we've never seen
  • the like of as a community.
  • His repeal of Don't Ask, Don't Tell, his position
  • to the attorney general's office to stop prosecuting, you know,
  • the Don't Ask, Don't Tell cases before the repeal even went
  • through demonstrated to me as an LGBT activist
  • that it was important for us as a community,
  • it was important for the future for LGBT people in this country
  • to maintain the policies that Obama had set forth.
  • And toward the end of his campaign,
  • he openly came out and supported the concept
  • of marriage equality for LGBT people nationally.
  • So it was a no-brainer for us in the LGBT component of the labor
  • community nationwide that we had to get
  • behind this administration.
  • We had to make sure that the macrocosm of what
  • happened in the mid '90s, when we went
  • from a Democratic administration to a Republican administration,
  • the first thing they did was rescind
  • anti-discrimination policies against gays
  • and lesbians in the workforce here in New York.
  • And so, you know, we take two steps forward
  • and one step back.
  • We get domestic partner benefits but they tax us.
  • We get marriage equality but we have DOMA.
  • So, you know, we're a people, who like many other groups
  • in this country who have been undervalued
  • or whether they've been actively or covertly discriminated
  • against, have learned lessons from our past.
  • And we know that it takes patience
  • and perseverance and hard work and dedication and building
  • bridges, you know, because there are so few of us.
  • We have to rely on relationships that we build in coalitions
  • that we build, whether it's with the labor movement
  • or whether it's with a particular political party
  • or a segment of that peculiar political party,
  • we know which side our bread is buttered on.
  • We know who our friends are and we know who our foes are.
  • And sometimes it appears that people that we formerly
  • thought we could count on, haven't been there for us
  • when the rubber hit the road, but it's
  • a very, very important, I think, for us as a community to keep
  • our eye on the prize.
  • And while I think we all take great pride and satisfaction
  • in the few states and the District of Columbia
  • that have passed marriage equality, what we also
  • have to remember is that there are something
  • like forty-five states in this union where it's
  • either prohibited or illegal, you
  • know, for LGBT people to marry.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
  • TOM PRIVITERE: So while I think it's important for us
  • to recognize our gains, we can't sit on our laurels
  • and stop here.
  • There's much more work to be done.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Have you personally ever experienced
  • discrimination because of being a gay man?
  • TOM PRIVITERE: In my early career--
  • I think I mentioned this to you at our last meeting.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
  • TOM PRIVITERE: I worked for the police department and the court
  • system for eleven years.
  • And I remember vividly--
  • I was a civilian working in the police department
  • and I vividly recall a police officer
  • was actually terminated back then because--
  • I don't know the specifics of how he was outed
  • or how they discovered that he was gay,
  • but he was fired from the police force.
  • What people of our generation remember
  • is that being gay or being discovered to be gay
  • could cost you your job.
  • There were no protections for us as gay people.
  • And in fact, it wasn't until 2002
  • in this state that the SONDA--
  • Sexual Orientation Non-Discrimination Act--
  • was passed.
  • So, you know, it's ten years ago I could
  • have been fired from my job--
  • even at this job--
  • for being gay, and I would have had no legal recourse
  • in the State of New York.
  • Despite all of the things that we've
  • gained in union contracts, despite all
  • of the things that we've gained now with marriage equality,
  • it wasn't that long ago that I could
  • have been fired from my job.
  • And so what I did when I finished my college degree,
  • I did what a lot of other gay people did--
  • I actually went to hairdressing school
  • and got a license, a beautician's license
  • to practice cosmetology, because I realized
  • that if they found out I was gay on the job,
  • I could have been fired from my job.
  • And I had to have some means of support and back up.
  • And, you know, that's certainly no way to live.
  • And so knowing that that could have happened to me when
  • I got into a position where I realized
  • I could make a meaningful contribution to the disparity
  • and the inequity in employment that faced all of us,
  • it wasn't a question of if I should, but of course I would.
  • And so, you know, as I look back over my career
  • and the opportunities I've had to make a difference for myself
  • and other LGBT people, you know, I have a son who is also gay.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Mm-hmm
  • TOM PRIVITERE: Who by happenstance and good luck
  • has found himself a husband whom he loves and is very proud of
  • and he's extremely happy with.
  • And, you know, unfortunately, my son and his husband
  • weren't able to marry in New York State.
  • They went to Connecticut, you know, three years ago.
  • And then I guess my point is that whether there's something
  • personal for us to gain by fighting for rights
  • and equality for gays and lesbians
  • because we happen to have a family member who is gay,
  • or whether or not we have an obligation
  • to look at future generations, whether we're related to them
  • or not, and say that the injustices that we
  • experienced-- the fear, the anxiety, the discrimination,
  • the violence, it has to stop.
  • And the fight, the struggle has to continue.
  • And I'm so proud of you, Evelyn, for doing
  • this, because I think it's human nature for people who
  • have experienced trauma, fear, rejection,
  • discrimination to try to move on with their lives
  • and put those things behind them,
  • but it's also important for us to remember where we came from
  • and what we've been through so that future generations
  • understand that their freedoms, their protections,
  • their inclusion in society isn't something that they should take
  • for granted.
  • And so if there is a message for future LGBT people,
  • it's that while ten years from now
  • or twenty years from now, the things that we found
  • so critical to fight in and go to the wall about that they may
  • be taking for granted as full-fledged citizens
  • of this country.
  • I look ahead to what's current today,
  • which is the issue of immigration and the issue
  • whether or not millions of people in this country who are
  • second-class citizens, migrant workers who are farm workers
  • who are excluded from the basic protections and the laws that
  • many of us take for granted--
  • you know, a forty-hour work week, overtime, safe
  • working conditions-- those are a huge segment of our population
  • who are excluded from basic protections.
  • So if there's one thing that I would
  • say to a gay or lesbian person who may listen to this twenty
  • years from now, forty years from now, a hundred years from now,
  • if there are people in society who are considered less than
  • or who need to have an advocate for their plight,
  • it's incumbent upon us as gays and lesbians
  • to remember that there was a time when
  • we needed to reach out to people and ask them
  • for help in our struggle.
  • That's a message I'd like to send to gay and lesbian kids,
  • because I already see--
  • and I'm happy for them, it's a huge sea change from the fear
  • and paranoia and terror that we experienced as young people
  • and growing up in a society that, you know,
  • hated us for who we were.
  • So the day will come when gay and lesbian kids will
  • be, you know, part of the mainstream and nobody will
  • think anything of it.
  • But I would hope that if they saw injustice
  • and they saw inequity and they saw disparity
  • for any group of people in this country,
  • that they'd be the first ones to jump in and say this is wrong
  • and this must stop.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: That's a good hope.
  • And I'm not cynical enough to say that that won't happen,
  • but I do think maturity plays a large part in taking up
  • the plight of someone else and life experience.
  • TOM PRIVITERE: Sure.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: In In 2002 when SONDA passed, would you
  • identify that as a shift in attitude?
  • Necessitated by law, but certainly
  • a shift so that fear of losing your job, fear
  • of being discriminated against not only in employment
  • but in housing and in other areas changed?
  • TOM PRIVITERE: I don't think so.
  • I think just because a law is passed
  • doesn't mean that attitudes shift
  • and automatically overnight protections
  • that the law provides are guaranteed.
  • In fact, people always try to find a way around a law.
  • So while it's a beginning, and it certainly
  • is important for us to seek legislation and seek
  • legal protections, you know, until we change
  • hearts and minds of people, the laws
  • are just a stepping stone for us to achieve
  • what we would hope would be equality within the society.
  • A recognition that we have a right to live and to exist.
  • That simply because a law was passed
  • didn't automatically overnight mean
  • that attitudes had changed.
  • Violations of their-- you know, laws
  • are made to guide society and protect people
  • within the society from injustice, but as we all know,
  • laws are broken every single day.
  • You know, there are laws against murder and genocide,
  • but people still, you know, kill other people.
  • And I don't mean to equate our plight with that,
  • but it happens, you know?
  • And so we have to do more than just
  • ask the government to pass a law to protect us,
  • we have to stay engaged, you know?
  • We have to participate in society.
  • And I think coming out is probably
  • one of those the most important things any of us
  • do to demonstrate to the rest of society
  • that it's important that we be seen for who we are
  • and what we are, and that we be accepted, you know, for who
  • and what we are.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Is really what you're
  • saying, the fact that the labor movement has included
  • in its contracts and protections for LGBT people,
  • that they're on paper only?
  • And that young people today coming into the labor force
  • and becoming a part of unions are
  • living in a world of unreality?
  • TOM PRIVITERE: No.
  • I don't mean to imply that.
  • I think certainly they're going to walk into a situation that
  • is infinitely better than the one
  • that you or I walked into thirty or forty years ago
  • in the workplace.
  • There certainly are many more protections
  • that they have within their labor contracts
  • than I did forty years ago coming into the workforce.
  • But that doesn't mean that they're
  • going to automatically walk into a situation where
  • every single supervisor or every single boss
  • accepts them at face value because they're gay.
  • Because prejudices exist, whether they're
  • prejudices against you because you're a woman.
  • You know, women have had the vote in this country
  • for almost 100 years now, but it doesn't
  • mean that women are equal at the workplace.
  • The same thing with LGBT people.
  • I mean, the fact that there are laws protecting
  • women's rights or gay rights or that there
  • are contract provisions protecting rights
  • doesn't mean that those contracts are always
  • going to be totally adhered to.
  • But there are measures.
  • There are actions that you can take.
  • You know, if somebody violates your civil rights,
  • you can take them to court.
  • If somebody violates your contractual rights,
  • you can file a grievance.
  • You know, there are--
  • in contracts, labor contracts are
  • intended to set forth the relationship
  • between the employer and the employees
  • that's a legal and binding, but violations occur all the time,
  • and that's why every contract has
  • provisions in it for addressing violations of those contracts.
  • So, you know, it's not a panacea,
  • it doesn't, you know, the world isn't all rosy and shiny
  • and we all aren't floating around on pink clouds
  • because the legislature saw fit two years ago to pass marriage
  • equality in New York, or, you know, the State of New York
  • agreed in 1995 to include domestic partner
  • benefits in our contracts.
  • The fact is that we're always growing and maturing
  • and improving on human relationships,
  • and that's really what it all boils down to.
  • Laws and protections under laws or under contracts are just
  • the beginning, you. know?
  • They require that people behave in a certain way.
  • But simply because they require that,
  • that doesn't automatically mean that people
  • are going to do that.
  • So I think the short answer to your question
  • is no, it isn't going to create the level playing
  • field that we all would like, but it's certainly
  • light years from where we were before these protections were
  • put in place, before marriage equality became
  • the law of the land here in New York State.
  • And I'm optimistic that the building blocks that we've
  • set into place are now--
  • I mean, if you use the analogy of a Lego,
  • one piece is connected to another piece and, you know,
  • there's a foundation that we've established.
  • Are we at the pinnacle?
  • No.
  • But, you know, to quote Martin Luther King,
  • you know, I've been to the mountaintop
  • and I can see that we have come closer
  • to full equality in this country and in this state.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Are the building blocks
  • independent of the people in charge
  • or in leadership positions in the Union?
  • TOM PRIVITERE: Yeah, I think they are.
  • I think it would be very, very difficult
  • for successive administrations to unilaterally try
  • to undo in the labor movement what we have collectively
  • been able achieve.
  • Similarly, you know, I think--
  • and we see today with marriage equality--
  • the issue had been at one point in time from our detractors,
  • well, you're achieving these by legislative fiat.
  • The people haven't spoken.
  • Every time this comes up and it goes before the people,
  • the people vote it down.
  • Well that's now proven to be untrue.
  • The last three states where marriage equality occurred,
  • it occurred as a result of people in those states
  • actually voting for something as opposed
  • to the opposition voting against us.
  • And again, to your point, those building blocks
  • that were formed by those states that required marriage
  • equality as a result of going through their governor
  • or their legislature to achieve have created the Petri
  • dish or the foundation for other states
  • to successively and successfully go
  • to the people in those states and say,
  • this is the right thing to do.
  • And again, you know, is it happening as quickly
  • as we would like to?
  • No.
  • Has it happened more quickly than any of us
  • ever expected it to?
  • Yes!
  • So, you know, there's a yin and a yang to this in a balance
  • that I think we're--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Well certainly for New York
  • the time was right.
  • We had political, labor, business leadership,
  • TOM PRIVITERE: Faith communities.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: --political, faith communities all on board.
  • And the coalitions that were built
  • within each of those entities came over time.
  • TOM PRIVITERE: Exactly.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And that's the piece
  • that I think is so critical.
  • That you cannot-- you have to build on little things and take
  • small steps before you take major steps.
  • TOM PRIVITERE: Well, and I also think that it's important
  • to recognize that we don't--
  • if we look at these coalitions, we
  • don't look at them in isolation.
  • For example, I'm a gay man and a member of the gay community,
  • but I'm also a labor activist.
  • I'm also a person of faith.
  • You know, I have a church, so I think
  • that like everything else, we're not a monolithic community that
  • doesn't have links to other aspects of these what we call
  • coalition groups, you know?
  • I'm also very active and have been in democratic politics,
  • you know?
  • I was a town leader, I was part of the executive committee
  • of the Democratic Party, I've worked on campaigns
  • as a campaign manager.
  • So, you know, the political aspect of this
  • can't be overestimated.
  • And so as a gay man, as an activist
  • in the labor community, I was also an activist
  • in the political community.
  • So we wear very many hats.
  • And so when I approach politicians
  • about promoting legislation that enhances
  • the benefits and the rights of our community, you know,
  • I take my "I'm a director of PEF Field Services"
  • hat to the table; oh, "I was the leader of the Democratic
  • Committee in the Town of Pittsburgh" hat to the table;
  • oh, "I've worked on political campaigns for colleagues
  • of yours who you now work with in the assembly or the state
  • senate or in the judiciary."
  • And so, you know, people will look at me and say, oh yeah,
  • he works for a union.
  • Well, I do my much more than just work for a union.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
  • And I think what you're really saying
  • is that because of all of those connections,
  • you have the ability to affect change on a broader basis.
  • TOM PRIVITERE: Yes.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And you have the ability
  • to influence other constituents to move in a direction that
  • promotes justice and equality, not only in the workplace,
  • but in society.
  • TOM PRIVITERE: Correct.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And And you cannot be afraid to be who you
  • are in that.
  • TOM PRIVITERE: I think that's the key.
  • My philosophy is fighting the fear.
  • And the notion that I should be caused to live life in fear--
  • in fear of being outed, in fear of being unemployed,
  • in fear of being physically attacked, which in fact I was.
  • Back in the '80s there were a lot of gay bashings.
  • So I'm on Monroe Avenue and my then partner
  • and I were confronted and attacked.
  • And I fought back.
  • And, you know, it was a time when, unfortunately the police
  • turned a blind eye.
  • The police force in the '80s turned a blind eye
  • to assaults against gays and lesbians in this city.
  • And so I think that was a seminal moment for me.
  • It was the early '80s.
  • You know, I was a bit complacent because I thought,
  • you know, I lived in a very gay-friendly neighborhood.
  • You know, the Park Avenue, Harvard Street area.
  • But I think, Evelyn, that that, like so many other things
  • in my life, were instrumental in me recognizing
  • that until the streets were safe for all of us,
  • they weren't safe for any of us.
  • In the labor movement, we said, you know, an injury to one
  • is an injury to all.
  • And so those concepts that I've acquired in a lifetime of--
  • there were years when I was closeted in the early '70s.
  • And when I came out of the closet to my family
  • and to my employer and to the world,
  • it gave me a sense of freedom from the fear.
  • And there's a saying that I heard once before--
  • fear is-- you know, face everything and recover or fuck
  • everything and run.
  • You can take either one of those two, and I choose not to run.
  • Yeah, the fear.
  • The fighting the fear.
  • And I understand that for many of us, young or old,
  • that fear is something real and tangible.
  • But we're not unique.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: No.
  • TOM PRIVITERE: You know, it's a human condition,
  • it's not a gay thing or a straight thing.
  • It's not a male thing or a female thing.
  • You know, either you look at what you're afraid of
  • and face it or you spend the rest of your life cowering.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Looking over your shoulder.
  • TOM PRIVITERE: Yeah.
  • And I'm proud of being part of the gay and lesbian, bisexual,
  • transgender community in the 21st century.
  • I'm proud of my people and what all of us
  • have achieved collectively.
  • You know, getting on buses year after year
  • and schlepping to Albany and walking
  • into legislators' offices and having
  • doors slammed in our face year after year after year.
  • You know, I think for a less dedicated or resolute people,
  • it may have discouraged us, but it didn't and it hasn't.
  • And the doors are now--
  • some them are still closed, but many of them have opened.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Yes, and there's another caveat that
  • says at least in the spiritual life, you keep knocking.
  • And you knock alone, then you knock with two,
  • then you knock with three, then you knock with four.
  • And eventually, the numbers knocking have to be heard.
  • And you I think have certainly led a number of people
  • to knock.
  • And you have inspired a number of people
  • to become involved in not only the labor
  • movement, but the gay liberation movement so that--
  • TOM PRIVITERE: Oh, that's very kind of you.
  • I think for me, I see the things that I've done
  • and the work that I've been engaged in as a collective,
  • you know?
  • It's not something that I've done,
  • it's something that we've done.
  • And I think inspiring people only
  • happens when you demonstrate that you're willing to go
  • to the wall, you know?
  • That you're willing to walk the walk and not just
  • talk the talk.
  • And I say this with humility--
  • I have walked the walk.
  • I don't ever ask anybody to do or say or stand
  • if I'm not willing to do it myself,
  • so I think it's important that that distinction be made--
  • I haven't done any of this on my own.
  • I've always had people at my back and at my side
  • and we've done this collectively.
  • And there may be individual people who maybe, you know,
  • they've shown up a little bit more than others,
  • but that's sometimes a blessing for those of us who have--
  • either they're fortunate enough to be in positions
  • where their voice can be heard over others, which I have been.
  • You know, I've been fortunate that my career path coincided
  • with the capacity and the ability
  • to make change for our community.
  • But, you know, it's not the only reason
  • I got involved in this business.
  • It's because justice, you know, for working people,
  • for people who have no voice was important to me.
  • And the fact that I knew as a gay person in the society
  • that justice was not being afforded to people like me,
  • I think that was part of--
  • you know, which came first?
  • The chicken or the egg?
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
  • TOM PRIVITERE: I don't know and it doesn't really
  • matter to me anymore.
  • What I do know is that whenever I see somebody that needs help,
  • I try to extend my hand and help them in.
  • And particularly when it comes to people whose--
  • the disabled, whose voices don't ring loudly enough
  • in our society.
  • And that's why I said earlier, I would
  • hope that future generations of LGBT youth, when
  • the crises of life are no longer for them realities
  • as they were for us, that they don't forget.
  • And that's why I want to, again, thank you for doing this,
  • because it's so critical for people moving forward
  • to understand what happened.
  • It's just, you know, human memory.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
  • TOM PRIVITERE: I think it's a natural thing for us to want
  • to put behind the trauma, the fear and the fight
  • and the struggle, because it's an exhausting thing
  • to keep focusing on the negative,
  • but sometimes it's important for us to--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Well, I think when all is said and done,
  • we each move out of our own experience
  • and we move out of our discomfort, and many of us
  • internalize that sense of not being accepted or not
  • being welcomed or not being OK.
  • And it doesn't any longer stop us, it is what propels us.
  • TOM PRIVITERE: Yes, it's what motivates us, yeah, yeah.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And what I think with every generation we need
  • to remember is, the process of coming out is the same
  • and gay men and women reflect more on that process
  • and more on who they are than 99% of the population.
  • And in that, the leadership, the role models,
  • the people who have gone before them become
  • critical to their own journey because they observe and they
  • see--
  • they overcame it, I can overcome it.
  • They moved, I can move.
  • And one of the titles--
  • if I can use that word--
  • that has been ascribed to you for many, many, many, many
  • years is you are a mover and a shaker.
  • TOM PRIVITERE: Well.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And for that, this community
  • owes you a debt of gratitude.
  • TOM PRIVITERE: Wow, that's very nice of you to say, but--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And I know you haven't done it alone.
  • TOM PRIVITERE: Right.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And I know you haven't been there by yourself,
  • but there is an energy created by people
  • who have at their core a sense of what is right
  • and a sense of what needs to be done
  • and a sense of what needs to be righted.
  • TOM PRIVITERE: Very well put, Evelyn, yeah.
  • Very well put.
  • Thank you.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: And you and the labor community
  • and other people have taken up the gauntlet
  • and moved that forward much further than people realize.
  • TOM PRIVITERE: Yeah, and I think that's
  • true of any social justice movement.
  • That when you're engaged--
  • when you're engaged in the fight, when you're
  • in the middle of the storm, your peripheral vision kind of gets
  • blocked.
  • And so time passes and you're focused on an objective
  • and it's really easy not to notice that to the right of you
  • and to the left of you is somebody walking the path
  • with you.
  • But I knew that I wasn't alone.
  • And the things, small things-- and I've talked a little bit
  • about this, I'm sure other people that you've interviewed
  • have too--
  • things like the Gay Alliance, the old Gay Alliance on Monroe
  • Avenue above the co-op--
  • that old fire station, you know?
  • That was a couple of rooms with a sofa or two--
  • a place for us to gather that wasn't a bar
  • became so important, you know?
  • Just a place for us--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
  • TOM PRIVITERE: --that we could go to be safe with each other
  • among each other.
  • And then that evolved into the building on Atlantic Avenue,
  • and then that evolved into what we now know as the GAGV.
  • And so yeah, there are moments in these movements when
  • somebody had the idea to get that place and somebody had
  • to provide the furniture and somebody, you know--
  • and I'm so grateful for those people,
  • and it meant so much to me back then to have a place to go.
  • And so I think when my time came to do something
  • and to be part of the movement, again,
  • it was a series I think of coincidences, you know?
  • I got an offer for this job and then when I took this job
  • and there was a caucus and the caucus was active
  • and I became-- ooh, wow, how exciting!
  • So, you know, I saw opportunities to make change
  • and I thought, wow, this is great.
  • This is what I want to do.
  • But I didn't create the opportunities,
  • I saw them when they became available
  • and I jumped in, you know?
  • So I wasn't more--
  • I don't know if mover and shaker is an apt appellation.
  • I think more that when an opportunity presented itself
  • for me to be an activist, I seized it.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: You certainly seized the moment.
  • TOM PRIVITERE: I did.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Carpe diem.
  • TOM PRIVITERE: I carpe'd the diem, yes, there you go, yes.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Well Tom, thank you very much--
  • TOM PRIVITERE: Thank you, Evelyn.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: --for the interview.
  • And--
  • TOM PRIVITERE: Hopefully this one actually came out.