Audio Interview, Tim Tompkins, August 23, 2011

ANNOUNCER: Saskatchewan up ahead.

It had just skipped a right turn.

EVELYN BAILEY: I have done the--

TIM TOMPKINS: I'm not the most tech savvy type.

Most things, I prefer to have someone else do.

EVELYN BAILEY: They've long passed.

TIM TOMPKINS: Oh my goodness.

EVELYN BAILEY: But in terms of the AIDS crisis,

and the police chief, when I talked to John Arnie

last night--

see this, it just blows my mind.

TIM TOMPKINS: It was actually Gordon Urlacher

that was helpful with that.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.

But prior to that, we didn't have a liaison.

TIM TOMPKINS: I don't think so.

EVELYN BAILEY: You came into the business of entrepreneurship

in Rochester around 1961, 1962.

TIM TOMPKINS: Oh no.

I didn't come into business until--

the gay business?

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

TIM TOMPKINS: My first gay business, I think,

was buying into that Roman sauna,

which is now the Rochester Spa and Body Club, in 1982.

Then I opened The Liberty, which was a really popular gay bar,

obviously, in June of 1984.

EVELYN BAILEY: And then you had The Pentagon?

TIM TOMPKINS: Oh, well, I did t hat with Mark.

But I had thirteen or fourteen clubs over the years, so yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: But when did you get--

I thought you told me the Rochester Body Club came

to you in payment for a--

TIM TOMPKINS: They actually sort of got

me involved in the ownership.

Because two of the partners really wanted

me to be a partner, apparently.

Which was unbeknownst to me, at the time.

So they had to do some work up there as a contractor.

And then they, well we don't necessarily have all the money

right at the moment.

And then they said, this partner wants out.

And they sort of talked me into buying his share.

In lieu of payment, to a degree. and doing something out

of this--

(phone rings)

EVELYN BAILEY: I said to Tim, he got the business--

the gay business-- when he did some work at the Rochester Body

Club--

TIM TOMPKINS: Yeah, I was reading about that.

EVELYN BAILEY: As a construction company.

And they couldn't pay him.

TIM TOMPKINS: Or they didn't want to.

I'm not quite sure, still to this day.

But actually, my first--

when I got to Saint Bonaventure, I did a little contracting

company with my father.

He was a carpenter, Rick Ample type.

So I actually remodeled Friar's Inn for Jesse Bulo.

And Jesse and I became buddies.

And then I ended up--

then Jesse recommended me to the guys down at the spa.

So then I went over there did a job for them.

And that's how I got involved with that.

Yeah, it's funny.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So.

EVELYN BAILEY: So.

KEVIN INDOVINO: You brought your recorder?

EVELYN BAILEY: I did.

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.

The best way to handle this is, one person ask the questions

while the recorder is going, and the other person just

keeps writing notes.

Which are you more comfortable with?

EVELYN BAILEY: I'll write the notes.

You ask the questions.

I've already asked Tim--

KEVIN INDOVINO: I'm sure you've probably asked half of them

already.

EVELYN BAILEY: Well, no.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Do you want a pad, or?

EVELYN BAILEY: I got this.

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.

Tim, this is just, more of us, our way

of getting to know you a little bit better.

TIM TOMPKINS: Sure.

KEVIN INDOVINO: And how we might be able to fit you

into this eventual documentary.

So that we have a better idea, when we do,

maybe, find the company with the camera, a better idea of what

we're going to be asking you.

TIM TOMPKINS: Sure.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So it's just a casual conversation,

just to get to know you, and how you've

come up through the ranks, particularly

in the gay community.

And very supportive of the gay community.

But now I want to turn the focus on the gay community.

I really want to look at the community as a whole,

and what you've done for it.

Fair enough?

TIM TOMPKINS: Sure.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Are you recording?

EVELYN BAILEY: Yes, it's on.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So why don't we just first start--

you grew up in the area.

Just talk me about your childhood, your boyhood.

You know, what was the Rochester area--

and I know you grew up in Wayne County, eventually.

TIM TOMPKINS: Yeah, actually it was the last couple

of years of high school.

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.

So, what was this community, this area, like, growing up?

TIM TOMPKINS: Well, I had a very good childhood, I think.

We did move every four or five years,

partially because my father was remodeling properties like,

got it done.

So we went twice on Black Creek and Chili, Churchville area.

So I can remember being in seventh grade

at Churchville-Chili.

Then we moved to Gates Chili.

Then eventually, the last few years were at Wayne Central.

So a lot of Chili operating, Spencerport Chili area.

KEVIN INDOVINO: When are we talking about?

Late '60s, '70s?

TIM TOMPKINS: I was born in '54.

KEVIN INDOVINO: '54, OK.

TIM TOMPKINS: Graduated high school '74, '73 I think.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So '60s early '70s,

were a good, kind of formative, years of your youth?

TIM TOMPKINS: Yeah, right.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Looking back at those years in Rochester,

what was your sense about Rochester

being either a very progressive city, or a very conservative,

or did you get a sense of that?

TIM TOMPKINS: No, I think I had a sense of that.

I thought it was a good place to live.

Clearly we were proud of Xerox, Kodak.

Bausch and Lomb doing it in those years.

And I think business overall was good.

I can remember feeling very positive about eventually

probably becoming an intern--

you know, even as a little boy, I always

knew I'd be in my own business.

(unintelligible) Definitely.

I still feel good about Rochester, overall.

KEVIN INDOVINO: We're going to get to that a little later.

Just kind of moving on, I read that you--

in one of these interviews that you did--

that you didn't actually come out as a gay person

until college years.

TIM TOMPKINS: Right.

KEVIN INDOVINO: But you had a sense of it

when you were in high school, which most of us did.

TIM TOMPKINS: Right.

I had a sense of it when I was seven or eight years old.

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.

Were there years before college that you

got a sense of the gay community in Rochester?

Did you know of it?

TIM TOMPKINS: No, really didn't.

I had a couple liaisons with people,

I think in junior or senior high school.

That was it.

Lived a pretty much straight life, at that point.

Went to Saint Bonaventure.

And then, I do remember being at Saint Bonaventure, quite

a few priests and brothers hitting on me

sexually, quite frankly.

And at the time, it kind of a turnoff.

Because maybe I was even a little conservative--

it's much more conservative, then.

In terms of values, I would show little life, or whatever.

Kind of a strict Catholic upbringing on my mother's side

of the family.

Although we weren't Catholic, because my father and mother

couldn't marry, because my father wasn't a Catholic.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Oh, no, really?

TIM TOMPKINS: Yeah.

I think I was brought up in a pretty conservative fashion.

And I was certainly nervous about being the number one

child, the oldest child.

Probably dad and mom's favorite, if there is one, right?

Certainly my father was living vicariously through me

later in life.

That was clear to all of my family members.

I didn't want to disappoint them, and come home

and say I was gay.

I finally did in, I think, my sophomore or junior year

of college.

KEVIN INDOVINO: What brought you to that point?

TIM TOMPKINS: I think I was borderline

depressed about living a lie.

And not being able to-- my father

brought me up not to ever lie.

Certainly not to defraud him or my mother, especially.

And I was on my conscience that I was not

being honest with the two people I probably love the most.

So it was just constantly building up.

It's kind of a funny story, how I did come out.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Let's hear it.

TIM TOMPKINS: I came home.

And it was Friday afternoon.

And my mother said, what's wrong?

I said, I'm just not that happy.

And I didn't really want to discuss it

with her, at that point.

And she worked at the Genesee Mental Health Center

at the time.

And I had met boss.

Everyone may know the name, Dr. Susan Hanson.

KEVIN INDOVINO: I've heard of the name.

But yeah.

TIM TOMPKINS: We're very proud of this psychiatrist for years,

here.

And one of the first female psychiatrists,

I think, in the Rochester area.

And eventually ran the mental health center for

Genesee Hospital.

And so my mother called her up.

She said, Susan-- my mother worked for her full-time--

my son, he's just-- it's not him.

It's not like him.

So she was opening up the in-house unit for Genesee

Hospital, late Saturday.

She said, bring him in, eight o'clock in the morning.

So I actually was with her from eight o'clock

on Saturday to 11:00 a.m.

And this is absolutely the truth.

I never felt bad about being gay again.

So it was interesting, you know?

She really made me feel totally different.

And I never did.

KEVIN INDOVINO: And that's interesting, back

in that decade.

TIM TOMPKINS: Yeah, that was like 1976 or so.

To have that meeting with her.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Well also interesting that your mother

would have the foresight that--

know that something was wrong.

Of course, I think all mothers do, probably.

TIM TOMPKINS: I think my mother was waiting.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, definitely.

TIM TOMPKINS: It wasn't that easy, then.

You know people were--

KEVIN INDOVINO: A lot of them, they weren't exposed to it.

TIM TOMPKINS: Especially my father,

was a man's man type of guy.

I used to go out deer hunting with him,

and hunting pheasants with him, and you know what I mean?

KEVIN INDOVINO: So how did they take it?

It seems to me like they took it fairly well.

TIM TOMPKINS: I think at first they were a little shocked.

Maybe at first my father was a little disappointed.

He thought he might not have grandchildren with me,

or you know?

But it was evident within six months or so

that they both completely accepted it.

So I think went pretty smooth sailing, after.

Much better than some people have.

And I realize that.

And I think, just another facet of my live

where I was lucky, in a sense.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Sure.

So you graduated from Saint Bonaventure, '78?

TIM TOMPKINS: 1978.

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.

Was it at that point, then, you started getting out

into the gay community?

TIM TOMPKINS: Yep, definitely.

KEVIN INDOVINO: In Rochester?

What was it like?

Talk to me about--

TIM TOMPKINS: It was a lot of fun.

KEVIN INDOVINO: How so?

Why?

TIM TOMPKINS: Well, first of all, we were the baby boomers.

So there was a wide range of guys out there, right?

And it was fun times.

It really was.

If you were out raising hell a couple nights a week,

that's the way it was.

And I'm sure some people would say

today, well, it was excess partying, or whatever.

But I got to tell you, it was one of the most fun

times in my life.

Going to Friar's and knowing the owner,

and meeting all kinds of people, and having fun.

It really was.

KEVIN INDOVINO: When did Friar's start?

How long was Friar's?

TIM TOMPKINS: I think Friar's probably started around 1970.

But he owned The Rathskeller before that.

EVELYN BAILEY: Jesse Bulo.

TIM TOMPKINS: Jesse Bulo.

EVELYN BAILEY: Owned the Rathskeller.

TIM TOMPKINS: B-U-L-O. Yeah.

And he was an amazing guy, to me.

Because again, I was a young guy,

and he was older, but quite a mentor.

A successful number of different enterprises, as well.

KEVIN INDOVINO: What was your sense

as far as the gay community goes, here in Rochester,

during that time period?

As far as the sense of people's openness about it?

Because as far as I hear, that's--

(interposing voices).

TIM TOMPKINS: I think verbally, it certainly

wasn't like it was today.

But quietly, I think it was accepted.

There were suspicions that one mayor who wasn't--

EVELYN BAILEY: Barry?

TIM TOMPKINS: An official mayor.

A city manager, the man--

KEVIN INDOVINO: Right.

Before we started electing mayors.

TIM TOMPKINS: He was Stephen, what's his name?

EVELYN BAILEY: Stephen May.

TIM TOMPKINS: Yeah, that he was gay, you know?

You had Midge Costanza.

I mean, right?

Let's face it, you had a huge liberal influence

at the U of R. And I think that's what

really helped fortify and project

the gay community in this area.

And I think you had a huge liberal influence in accepting,

in that regard.

I think there were some facets of the city, and the community,

that didn't accept it.

I can remember when I opened up my first gay bar in 1984.

Literally every Friday and Saturday

night, this old Sergeant would come in at 5:02,

and stare me and my customers down,

to make sure didn't go one minute past serving.

And you could just see, he was scowling at gay men.

Yeah.

And to Gordon Urlacher's credit--

later had a fall from grace--

I did call Gordon Urlacher, I think

he was a Lieutenant, then.

Because he was kind of friendly.

And he was in the downtown area.

And I said, I got a a real problem with this guy.

I can remember exactly what he said to me, today,

on the phone.

He said, Tim, you're never going to to see him again.

And you know what?

I never saw that Sergeant again.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Interesting.

TIM TOMPKINS: And it was interesting that he did that.

He didn't have to, right?

He was progressive enough to say that this guy is running

a good business, he's not in trouble with us,

he improved a building.

Why the hell should that Sergeant

be in there hassling him?

KEVIN INDOVINO: You're paying taxes.

TIM TOMPKINS: I later paid Gordon Urlacher back for that,

in a number of way.

But I thought it was--

you kind of like Gordon Urlacher, too.

EVELYN BAILEY: Mm-hm.

TIM TOMPKINS: It's a shame, what happened to the guy.

KEVIN INDOVINO: I don't really know him.

It's before my time.

I don't want to say before my time, but--

TIM TOMPKINS: He was the Chief of police, and very popular.

Very charismatic individual.

Went right up the ranks fast, became Chief.

But had a fall from grace, because he and his associate,

Roy Ruffin, were convicted--

or I don't know if Roy was--

KEVIN INDOVINO: Oh, no I who you're talking about, right.

TIM TOMPKINS: Of taking money, or evidence, or money out

of the evidence fun.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yep.

Yep.

Now I know who you're talking about.

TIM TOMPKINS: So it was quite sad, because--

KEVIN INDOVINO: It was like, in the '90s.

TIM TOMPKINS: He was a guy who could have been mayor, also.

He could have been a police Chief turned mayor, as well.

EVELYN BAILEY: And Urlacher was the first police

liaison in the gay community?

TIM TOMPKINS: Yeah.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Right.

Now his name is coming back to me.

TIM TOMPKINS: But I think part of that

is because we were pals.

And it all worked nicely, it really did.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So it's fun times in the 1980s.

TIM TOMPKINS: Yep.

Late '70s, '80s.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Late '70s, a lot of good social outlets.

TIM TOMPKINS: Until, you know, all of a sudden, I remember--

I can't remember which bar I had at that point.

It might have just been the Liberty, still.

And I started hearing rumblings about this disease.

San Francisco, New York, and no one

even had an acronym, or a name for it, yet.

It was even before they called it GRID.

Gay-Related Immune Disorder, before that.

And somehow I think Sue Cowell and I talked,

and I can't remember if I flew Tim Sweeney up,

or if he came up on his own.

But I organized a meeting with him, talking to gay men.

And he said, look, we've got a real problem on our hands.

This is going to really be scary.

You're going to-- you know.

And then, sadly, for me personally, at the same time,

Jesse Bulo got sick.

And yeah, I don't know if it was ever discussed

that he had AIDS, until--

EVELYN BAILEY: What year?

TIM TOMPKINS: I think he died before the acronym

AIDS came about.

Can ask Bobby about that.

So we had Tim Sweeney up, and then, from that point

on, things changed.

At least for me.

Because I saw a lot of people get sick and die.

EVELYN BAILEY: The '80s,

TIM TOMPKINS: Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: Late '80s.

TIM TOMPKINS: And one time, I remember

we were naming rooms after people, AIDS Rochester,

and I was donating money for rooms,

and I actually just took a pad of paper.

And I stopped at sixty-five names.

That was a lot of people to know, personally,

in one way or another, that died.

So yeah, fun times hit a wall, in a sense.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, and we'll get into that.

It also changed who we were, in the community's eye.

Well let's talk about opening your first bar.

That was '84, you said?

Which bar was that?

TIM TOMPKINS: The Liberty.

KEVIN INDOVINO: It was the Liberty, OK.

Let's talk about your choice of opening a bar like that.

TIM TOMPKINS: Well, I spent a lot of time

over at Friar's, and I thought, gee, I could do this.

And although I just remodeled Friar's space,

I didn't really like way it looked, in terms

of spatial constraints.

It was a small building, and the dance floor was real tiny.

And I sort of thought, I could design a better space

than this.

So I didn't really want to compete with my friend, Jesse.

But then he said to me, you're going to do something.

And he wanted to be my partner.

But then he got real sick, and that all changed.

So eventually, I just did this project.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Let me pull you back on that, a little bit,

then.

Because you hit something with it.

Your vision of what you wanted to do with the Liberty, what

do you think you were doing that wasn't already out there?

TIM TOMPKINS: You know, in my opinion, for the most part,

there just weren't really nice gay bars at that point.

Some were owned by straight people

just sort of taking advantage of gay people.

Some were--

KEVIN INDOVINO: Owned by the mob.

TIM TOMPKINS: Yeah.

The lesbian bar off of--

was owned by the mob for years.

At Allen Street.

And I just thought we were sort of

treated like second-class citizens,

to a degree, when it came to that.

I had an interest in creating something really nice.

KEVIN INDOVINO: However, this was

in the midst of the whole AIDS epidemic,

really starting to come to a head.

TIM TOMPKINS: It was started, yeah.

KEVIN INDOVINO: What were some of the challenges in starting

a bar?

TIM TOMPKINS: I don't think the bar was

affected by that at all.

Certainly spas were.

It was kind of ironic, right after I bought into the spa,

there was a cover of Newsweek.

The AIDS Crisis.

And then, this is literally right afterwards.

And the sales went down $2,500 a week.

I remember that.

And I remember saying to myself, what kind of investment

did you make here?

So that eventually took some of the business back.

But for a long time-- you know, they closed all of them

in New York City.

Except for someone-- who is now a friend of mine--

who I didn't that he owned two of the smallest ones.

And he got under the radar.

They closed all the ones in 700, or 800, 900 rooms.

Which, there was four to five of them at that point in time.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Wow.

TIM TOMPKINS: Yeah.

They closed them all.

And his two tiny places are open.

So he became an instant multi-millionaire

in New York City.

Because he had the two smallest ones, and they were open.

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, so in '84 you got Liberty going.

TIM TOMPKINS: Mm-hm.

KEVIN INDOVINO: That went into the '90s, didn't it?

TIM TOMPKINS: I think so, yeah.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Because I know I started coming out around '89,

and I remember going there.

Well, then this opportunity with the bathhouse came along?

TIM TOMPKINS: No, the bathhouse was first.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Was that first?

What year was that, then?

TIM TOMPKINS: I think it was '82.

KEVIN INDOVINO: That was '82.

Oh, OK.

TIM TOMPKINS: Somewhere, '81 or '82.

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, well then let's jump back a little bit.

There's this opportunity with the bathhouse.

To be blunt, I would just say to you, why?

TIM TOMPKINS: Yeah.

Well I sort of got tricked into it.

There was three partners.

Two of them didn't like the third partner, I guess.

So I did a remodeling job, and they sort of

said, well, we don't really have the cash right now.

They sort of fibbed a little bit.

But I realized later, they sort of wanted me in on the deal.

Maybe for real estate advice, or maybe for construction.

Or maybe because I was younger.

Maybe because they could see I was going to be up and coming.

I don't know for sure.

But it was clear to me, years later,

it was a calculated plan.

So I wasn't really--

you know, I had been to a bathhouse a couple times.

But it really isn't my style.

I'm more of a romantic type, quite frankly.

And this may sound odd that the guy owns the bathhouse.

But it was just another business, for me.

Do you know what I mean?

Right now I own five businesses.

It's just the way I am.

So it was a business.

It didn't really turn me on a personal level.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Well I wanted to hit upon that.

Because it was like, OK, was this just a business decision?

Or did you think you were still offering something

to the community?

Or a little bit of both?

TIM TOMPKINS: Well, again, I think

I made that place 100 times better.

I'm an improver.

I like to buy something that is in a state of disrepair,

or not looking good, and make it wonderful.

That's my MO.

KEVIN INDOVINO: But then again, we got hit with AIDS.

TIM TOMPKINS: Yeah.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So then you're second guessing your choice

of taking on--

TIM TOMPKINS: I got to second guess myself.

For one thing, I didn't really identify with it, personally.

It obviously seemed, now, not to me

a solid financial investment.

At times I thought, well, am I-- this is very, you know, oh,

was I contributing to AIDS by keeping it open?

But I quickly realized that actually, in essence,

I probably helped save lives.

Because we had safe sex literature in each room, and we

had condoms.

And people are going to have sex no matter what.

Young kids are still getting it, unfortunately.

They don't even go to bathhouses anymore.

Seven years ago, Forbes said--

they listed ten extinct businesses.

One of the items on the list, on the front page of Forbes,

was gay bars.

An I'll predict, within another five to ten years,

spas will be extinct, too.

So I've already got plans to change my building

into loft apartments.

The spa today is Grindr on someone's phone.

I was amazed.

This gay kid was showing me.

He was at one, and he goes, here.

Mr. Tompkins, look at this.

And he just-- all these pictures of these guys.

And it even shows you whether they're

half a mile from you, or not.

This is the bathhouse of this century.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Well are you surprised that the bathhouse

has lasted as long as it has?

TIM TOMPKINS: Yeah.

I am, actually.

I think it's, again, because we have a higher per capita

of gay men in the city.

So we've got baby boomers.

It's been there since 1962, so it's, I think,

the oldest bathhouse in New York State, probably, at this point.

Certainly one of the oldest ones in North America.

Just a little bit of history.

EVELYN BAILEY: Still In existence.

TIM TOMPKINS: Still in existence.

EVELYN BAILEY: So were there other competition?

TIM TOMPKINS: At one time, there were

three bathhouse in Rochester.

There might have only been two when I bought into the spa.

But you know, Tom and Joan when they did Emory's Restaurant.

I don't know if they like to tell a lot of people,

but they did.

EVELYN BAILEY: What were the three bathhouses?

TIM TOMPKINS: I don't know if I can remember the names.

EVELYN BAILEY: The Roman.

TIM TOMPKINS: There was one, The Roman

was the one at Liberty Pole Way.

And the other side of Liberty Pole Way,

which used to be on the second floor of the building I

actually bought.

It had a fire, and they never reopened it.

So I actually bought that building.

That's where I did the Liberty.

So I remember the whole second floor was a bathhouse, burned.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Oh, interesting.

TIM TOMPKINS: So we took everything out.

When I opened, I just did the first floor,

did the Liberty, when it began.

KEVIN INDOVINO: While we're in the '80s,

let's talk a little bit about AIDS activism.

Obviously, your name comes up because you

were at the forefront of it.

TIM TOMPKINS: Yeah.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Again, talk to me

about the atmosphere of the community, then.

What was going on?

Obviously, a lot of people were scared.

TIM TOMPKINS: A lot of people were scared.

But there was people who just immediately rallied

in this community.

And again, because I own the spa,

I remember being called upon for a founders

meeting for AIDS Rochester.

But I was a little nervous about me owning the spa,

and going to the meeting.

So I actually sent Alan Davidson,

who worked for me, at the time.

He's now known as a founder of AIDS Rochester, in fact.

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.

I know Alan.

TIM TOMPKINS: Yeah, so he was Alan, and Sue, and John.

They got the credit for founding AIDS Rochester.

But I just didn't want to be on the TV cameras,

and own the spa, at the time.

So we got it organized.

And we used to meet then were really pulled away.

I can't remember if we met on top of Tara's first.

Or I think we moved over there.

We first met in a basement of Creative Plastics,

because Mike Scarfia owned it.

And he had a gay son.

Or he had a son that got AIDS.

Whether he was out or not--

I don't think he was, maybe.

So we used to actually meet in a basement of a building.

This is how this organization started.

In my opinion, really, Sue Cowell

was probably the most important impetus.

I don't want to take away from other people.

But I've always sort of associate it with Sue Cowell.

Strong leadership, and a wealth of knowledge.

Considering other people--

Chip, and Evelyn, and me, Channel Tiery lots of people

played in important roles.

I'm not going to be able to think of all their names.

But we really certainly rallied, and made AIDS Rochester happen.

KEVIN INDOVINO: And you mentioned something,

right at the beginning, that I don't

want to lose the thought on.

Is that, this community rallied.

And that you say that a number of different ways.

TIM TOMPKINS: It's always rallied.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Why do you think that is?

TIM TOMPKINS: Whether it was for ESPA,

whether it was for gay rights before ESPA, whether it was--

a group of the older guys I don't

mean to sound like my buddy Dan Meyers.

He is 10 years older than me.

Dan Meyers, and Tom, and Joe, and Duffy Hickey and all kinds

of people got together and just used

to do fundraising with what's Helping People with Aids, HPA.

And that was needed, because AIDS Rochester

was just a fledgling little service organization,

in the beginning.

And HPA really got people together.

Threw a party.

They raised some big bucks.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Oh yeah, I know, I attended a few.

But I want to back to, why do you think

this particular community of Rochester

has that rallying spirit?

I'm not even necessarily on the gay community.

TIM TOMPKINS: Well I think they have a huge intellectual

capability in the gay community here,

where other cities and towns didn't.

You had (unintelligible) U of R professors.

You had executives, quietly, at Xerox Kodak,

and Bausch and Lomb.

At one point, I think we were in the top 5 percent per capita

for gay people.

Now we're down to, I think, 15 percent, but at one point

we were top five in the nation.

So you had a lot of people rallying to causes.

Intelligent people.

And our economy was good, too.

People could contribute.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.

Let's hope that comes back.

So let's move on from the bathhouse, Liberty.

Let's move on from that point.

You're also known not only just for owning gay bars,

or whatever, but also as just a prominent businessperson.

Talk me about that part of your life.

And how do you balance that part of your life with the--

OK, this is the Rochester business life that I lead.

But this is also the gay community life I lead.

TIM TOMPKINS: I never really had a problem.

I don't think I'm a banner-waver, necessarily,

but you can't become as successful as I have

in business in a small town like this without people knowing

if you're married or not, if you have children, or--

I mean, no one ever made a joke in front of my face

that I was gay.

But I'm sure I walked out of some meetings sometimes,

and people said, oh, do you know he's gay?

But honest to god, I never really--

and feel sorry for other people.

I've never really suffered from discrimination, personally.

I was immensely accepted in the straight world.

(phone vibrates)

EVELYN BAILEY: Why?

TIM TOMPKINS: Well, you know, I don't know whether it's--

KEVIN INDOVINO: Do you want to answer that or?

TIM TOMPKINS: No.

I don't know whether it's because maybe, at times, I

appear so straight-acting, or I don't know what it is.

Maybe it's because I'm successful.

Maybe they like my personality.

I don't know.

But I just never really felt any discrimination.

It sounds crazy, doesn't it?

But I never really did.

EVELYN BAILEY: There was a time prior

to Urlacher when everyone in power--

or in authority-- in this city seemed

to be at the parties of gay men that were thrown.

And then, that changed somewhat.

Was it the fact that you were so involved in--

I don't want to say in an elite circle.

TIM TOMPKINS: Me personally, do you mean?

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

But certainly not with the person

who's walking the street.

Or you mentioned intellectual and educational ideas

being the reason why the community rallied,

and had a more positive view, perhaps, of LGBT people.

So perhaps it was because you ran in those circles.

TIM TOMPKINS: Oh, maybe.

I might speak from a little prejudice, I suppose.

EVELYN BAILEY: And I don't want to look down

on people who are not as educated, or not as open.

But--

KEVIN INDOVINO: Let me ask this question.

TIM TOMPKINS: Well, let me make this clear, then, maybe.

I never felt discrimination.

But I certainly was aware of how my gay brothers and sisters

were discriminated against.

And I was very concerned how people were treated.

So I converted this one gay kid that was just coming out,

making fun of a guy who was a drag

queen, who was very effeminate.

And he actually said to me, this young gay kid

said to me, well why does he act like that?

I looked at him, and I said, Steve,

because that's the way he is.

He thought the effeminate side of his personality was--

KEVIN INDOVINO: Wasn't out.

TIM TOMPKINS: Something left to the shower.

Yeah.

So I was clearly always aware.

And I used to this one guy, Phil Tiery-- do you remember Phil?

This guy looked like he had AIDS before AIDS came out.

He was 380 pounds, apparently, in high school.

And all of the sudden, went on a diet, and lost the weight.

He's a real character.

But you know, I could see that people were not

necessarily accepting of Phil.

He was flamboyant, and he was a real, real character.

And his mother and father were Kodakers.

And his father was a mariner at the Rochester Yacht Club.

And it was probably a little bit of an embarrassment,

at times, for them to have Phil.

But nonetheless, they loved their son.

But I always felt sorry for Phil.

Because people would make fun of him.

KEVIN INDOVINO: And that's a question I wanted to get into.

Your perception of, is there more than one gay community

in Rochester?

I think there's a lot of prejudice

within our own community.

In regards to classism, or feminism, or whatever.

Have you seen that all along?

TIM TOMPKINS: I've seen that all along.

I don't know if you can find the Empty Closet.

Posit I might have it in my archives, somewhere.

But at one time I noticed a lot--

just the bars used to fight.

So if you were loyal to the Forum,

if you were loyal to the Liberty,

if you were loyal to Friar's.

I mean there was just so much war going on.

Or certain drag queens were camped against this drag queen

farm team.

And I think at one time--

I can't remember exactly what I worded.

But I took out the back page of the Empty Closet.

I said, we have enough enemies on the outside.

We shouldn't fight from within, or something.

Do you remember when I did this?

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

TIM TOMPKINS: A lot of people were pissed at me,

because I put that in writing.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Do you remember about what year that was?

TIM TOMPKINS: And maybe I shouldn't

have done it or written it, but I felt that way.

Like, god, here we are in a little microcosm of society.

And people were at each other's throats, sometimes.

EVELYN BAILEY: It was probably late '80s, early '90s.

I'll check it out.

I'll find it.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, it'd be interesting to find.

From the '80s, up until--

what is it?

Thirty years later, now?

Oh my god.

How have you seen things change within the community?

They've changed drastically, I think.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah, I think so.

I think we're in a much better state, obviously.

Everyone reminded me that I said,

the challenge was for marriage.

Here we are.

Five years later, we have it, right?

You might have heard that my buddy, Bob Duffy,

was the first mayor to endorse marriage here.

And then he took it to United States Conference, to mayors,

and got it approved there.

Which was ballsy of him to do, really.

And it's interesting that him and Cuomo teamed up.

And here we are.

So it's an interesting combination

of events and people.

But Bob was certainly helped greatly

by Mark Siewic and Tim Tompkins.

Two people that aren't just gay, but are successful, right?

And between just those two names,

certainly moved him along in his fight to win that democratic--

KEVIN INDOVINO: So was there a point somewhere along the way,

where people like you, or Mark, or maybe Duffy, or whatever,

realized that our energies could be

used more effectively if we got more

into some political influence?

Or some political change?

TIM TOMPKINS: Well I personally got involved politically

because of the AIDS thing.