Audio Interview, Tony Mascioli, November 2011
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Fox sponsored this half-hour show,
- I think it was every week.
- And because we had a special gimmick on Sunday afternoons,
- we had play--
- young musicians from the Juilliard School.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Oh, yeah.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Well, that attracted their attention,
- and they asked us if we would like to put
- the place on their program.
- Well, we needed all the free publicity we could get.
- At the time, there were like ten bathhouses in New York.
- This was 1976, before AIDS.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: So I agreed to be the person interviewed
- for this.
- A woman interviewed me.
- And I showed no mercy in the frankness
- because it was that kind of a program.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: So Tim says, "I think you ought to let--
- I think they ought to put whatever you're doing here--"
- he says, "They ought to put that in there, that infomercial."
- EVELYN BAILEY: Do you have a copy of that?
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Well, I only have one copy.
- I'm in the process of having Greg Winter convert it
- from that awful VHS, which it has
- to be done anyway, because it's going to deteriorate.
- And I wanted to give it to a few people.
- In some ways, it's hysterical.
- In some ways, it gives you a sense
- of what was going on in the '70s.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: This was made in 1976.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: And Greg--
- I never play those things.
- So he set up my--
- that player in the office.
- I didn't want it in here, because I don't use it.
- But I do have to measure the numbers on the tape,
- so he converted onto that.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: So at that time--
- I don't know how soon all this is happening.
- I don't know how long--
- much time you need for such things, or do
- you want to even--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Well--
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Or do you even want
- me to attempt to set it up--
- if I can get it to play, it's going to--
- EVELYN BAILEY: If Greg is going to make copies
- for you, if we could get a copy of it,
- that would be sufficient.
- The goal is to finish this in time
- for the ImageOut Festival next year, 2012.
- That's the goal.
- Now that means we have to raise--
- we have to raise a total of 120, but we need 40
- to do the filming.
- I've already raised, through the $3 bill campaign
- and through other people, about 7,000 or 8,000
- of the forty that we need immediately to go
- into filming and production.
- But my personal goal--
- the Alliance was incorporated in 1973.
- I want this done by its fortieth anniversary, which
- will be 2013.
- I'm shooting for 2012, hoping we can get everything we need
- and get it done.
- But by 2013, it will be finished.
- It will be complete.
- And I have committed myself to do
- nothing else but this project until it gets done
- and I raise the money.
- Do you know Christopher Layton, the designer?
- I've been talking to him.
- And I'm going to ask him for a large chunk.
- He offered to help finance a new building for the Alliance.
- Well, I already told him the Alliance
- doesn't need a new building.
- As a matter of fact, I'm not sure having
- a building in this day and age is the way to go.
- I mean, it's, one, a huge expense,
- but two, the upkeep, the maintenance, you know,
- all of that.
- You've got to have a longevity of financial resources
- that will continue to feed that.
- And the Alliance will always be in existence.
- That's not going away.
- But would it be better to not have a building
- and use that money for programming?
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Well, that's an interesting concept,
- but look at the one in New York.
- They have a huge place.
- EVELYN BAILEY: I know.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Am I allowed to have a cocktail?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Absolutely.
- This is your home.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: I think I need something to--
- my eye is really bothering me.
- Of course, you don't want one, or do you?
- EVELYN BAILEY: No, I don't.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: The last time I
- saw you were sitting in that restaurant, you said--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: "I'm having a martini.
- I deserve it."
- EVELYN BAILEY: (Laughs) That's because I'd
- turned sixty-five, Tony.
- Sixty-five.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: When did you turn Sixty-five?
- EVELYN BAILEY: October 27th.
- CREW: October 27th was-- (recording ends)
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: You think it's not that long ago, really.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: I mean, that you had to go into a bar,
- there was a paid policeman sitting there at a desk,
- and you had to write your name down-- almost like being
- in Nazi Germany.
- If it was even open at all, they had
- a cop at the entrance sitting at a desk
- and watching everything that was going on.
- You couldn't leave with anybody or anything like that.
- It was all being watched.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, see, and I--
- you know, I didn't come out until late '80s.
- So when I came out, the gay community was there.
- They're visible.
- They're vocal.
- They're--
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Oh, yeah.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Where did you come out, here?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Here, yeah.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: You're from Rochester originally?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yep.
- But we need to talk to people like you
- because, yeah, we've got this great resource now,
- the forty years of The Empty Closet
- to look at the history from 1971 on,
- but we need to talk to people like you to tell us,
- what was it like before 1971 here?
- You know, what was it--
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Well, you got to remember that I really left.
- I wasn't here.
- EVELYN BAILEY: But when--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: But when did you leave?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Well--
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: I came out in 1948,
- so I can tell you about that.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So yeah, the '48s,
- the '50s, that's what we're looking for, you know.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And please don't be upset,
- but when were you born?
- What's your birth date, Tony?
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Oh, date?
- Of the year?
- The month and year?
- December 19, 30.
- EVELYN BAILEY: December 19, 1930.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: And I came out at the earliest possible moment
- when I got out of high school.
- I mean, I knew where the gay bar was and everything.
- EVELYN BAILEY: What gay bar?
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Well, there was one
- on-- it was a mixed place.
- It was on South-- it was on Clinton Avenue,
- called the Glass Bar.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: The Glass Bar?
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Never heard of it.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Well, it wasn't
- completely gay, but mostly.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Was it like North Clinton, South Clinton?
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: It was, well, you
- have to take those buildings that were there.
- There was the Seneca that became the Manger, which
- became Midtown Plaza.
- There was a hotel there.
- Not too far toward Court Street, not too far, in the middle of--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Oh, so right downtown, then?
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Yeah, it was right downtown.
- And it was on the second floor.
- You had to go in and go up the stair, a flight of stairs.
- And it was a very interesting place.
- Of course, I was just coming out.
- And you know, they had entertainment of sorts.
- They always had a three-piece combo
- playing up on top of the bar.
- Had a little class to it, you know.
- Strippers sometimes, female strippers.
- Not male.
- And people sat around the bar.
- It was a sort of happening place for the time.
- And that was '48, '49.
- I don't even remember exactly when they closed, because then
- I went away in '49.
- And then I came to New York, and then I
- came back here for a few years.
- That place wasn't there anymore.
- Then there was another place called the Oasis.
- Did anybody ever mention that?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: No.
- EVELYN BAILEY: No.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Well, the Oasis
- was not very-- it was a very short-lived affair.
- It was on South Avenue beyond the library a little bit.
- And can you believe, the thing that made the Oasis
- such a hot ticket was they--
- you could-- they had a back room.
- And nowadays back rooms are for sex.
- That was a back room for dancing.
- That was a big deal, being--
- that was quite thrilling, to be able to go dancing with a man.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Why?
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Horrible.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Why?
- We--
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Well, you couldn't dance in-- no,
- dancing between men and the same (unintelligible)-- well,
- women danced, even at weddings and all that stuff.
- But men didn't dance together, and they
- weren't even allowed to.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Was there a law against it?
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Well, I don't know,
- but when I was working in Atlantic City during that era,
- '49, '50, they had a place--
- not in Atlantic City.
- You had to drive out in the--
- fifteen, twenty miles out just to this roadhouse.
- And you could dance there.
- But no, it was all very sub rosa.
- No, it was not legal at all.
- They could arrest you, I think.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, they would usually
- raid the place if they saw--
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Yeah, they'd raid it.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: -- two men dancing.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Just for dancing.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Right.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- Wow.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So like, you know, in '48, '49
- here in Rochester, how did you find out
- about the gay community?
- How did you know where to go?
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: I was sexually motivated
- from the time I was six.
- And I just--
- I kind of knew a couple of people
- that I thought were in the club, so to speak, in high school.
- But we never really got too thick.
- I had my own friends.
- I was very much in love with a straight guy.
- But as soon as I got out of high school,
- and I was old enough to get served--
- eighteen then-- I started going to the Glass Bar.
- I'd go in there and buy one drink, and within five minutes,
- I'd have five or six beers.
- That's-- was the style then.
- People were sending me all the drinks.
- I was a hot little ticket.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: (Laughs)
- EVELYN BAILEY: I bet you were.
- I've heard that from other people.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Oh, have you?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
- Tim Tompkins said you were something else.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Yeah, those were the glory days.
- And I took every advantage of it of.
- I was one date right after another.
- But anyway.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: What year then did you leave for New York?
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Well, I have to think about it.
- '48 is when I started going to the Glass Bar.
- There was another place on Front Street, the original.
- Not the one that later became Martha's,
- but her husband, Dick, ran a joint on Front Street.
- Did you know about that?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I know about Front Street, but I was--
- I'm trying to find out--
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: It was a--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: -- within that district if there was a few gay
- bars in that area.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Well, it was a few feet
- from Main Street on the river side,
- when you couldn't see the river.
- In those days, Front Street was a wall of buildings.
- You know, you didn't even know there was a river there.
- And this was a haunt, a dive, just a bar, very--
- mixed with dregs of humanity, you know.
- That was for-- that was like the Bowery, Front Street.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Right.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: So some of them would be in this place,
- but mostly it was an off--
- you know, it was a gay bar, so there
- was that one and the Glass Bar.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Do you remember the name
- of the bar on Front Street?
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Dick's.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Dick's.
- OK.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: It was Dick's.
- And then Martha got involved with him,
- and then that became an institution later on.
- I think they moved--
- two of them moved to another location on Front Street,
- across on this side.
- I think they started demolishing that side to open it up.
- So I'm pretty sure they opened on the other side of Front
- Street, the two of them.
- She used to work there as a barmaid.
- And then they moved uptown, so to speak, on Stone Street,
- you know, and that part you've probably heard about.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Haven't you?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- Martha, was her last name Gruttadauria?
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Oh, I don't know.
- I don't know what her last name was.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Is she the one who was killed?
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: She was brutally murdered.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
- Her last name was Gruttadauria.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Was it Gruttadauria?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Really?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: From the Gruttadauria bakery people?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
- They were-- I understand.
- I don't know, because in 1948, I was two, in Boston.
- But I heard they were mafia, the Gruttadauria--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Oh, yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: -- family.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: I don't know.
- I don't know.
- There was a sort of a gangstery guy
- that used to run the Glass Bar.
- I don't know whatever became of him
- and why that bar closed, but I know he was making--
- he must've been making money there.
- Then-- you know how one thing leads to another avenue when
- you're telling--
- but you want to--
- I can't give it the exact year unless I really
- do some thinking about--
- then there was a sort of what elegant--
- there were two elegant bars.
- There was one on Gibbs Street, across from the Eastman
- Theater, called the Town and Country.
- Did you ever--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Oh, yeah.
- I knew about that.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: And that--
- now, where does that, exactly--
- was that later?
- Was that a--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: That--
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: That was in the '50s.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: That was very big in the '50s and '60s
- if I remember, even maybe up until the '70s,
- I think it was very big.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Oh, that long?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Two men ran that place.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: And then there was one on East Avenue,
- but not completely gay, which I loved, called the 44 and 1/2.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: The 44 and 1/2?
- EVELYN BAILEY: 44 and 1/2.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: At 44 and 1/2 East Avenue.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Never heard of that one.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: It was--
- I mean, and things were chicer then than they are now.
- This was a little club that had wonderful singers.
- I know you've probably never heard of Jeri Southern,
- but they had the likes of Jeri Southern singing there.
- You know, she was--
- she never became any Peggy Lee, but I loved her.
- And I still have her records.
- And I caught her act there, just singing and the piano player,
- you know.
- And it was very elegant, 44 and 1/2 East Avenue.
- But I don't know.
- That only lasted, I think, a few years.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So tell me, then,
- I mean, back in '40s, early '50s,
- was there a sort of mix of the gay community
- with the straight community at these wonderful clubs?
- Was it kind of hush-hush, or--?
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Well, like the guy I told you about,
- Mike Cinani, that I was in love with in high school,
- he used to patronize the Glass Bar.
- I used to patronize the Glass Bar.
- I mean, we're there for two completely different things.
- That might give me and you a clue.
- He was looking for women.
- So there had to be women there, because he was getting them.
- And there were men there.
- It was luscious.
- I mean, I-- well, of course, I was young at the time.
- But it was exciting.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: And then they had the stripper on the stage,
- right on top of the bar, with the wonderful three-piece
- music.
- You know, I found it all very exciting.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, what about the community's attitudes
- towards gays and lesbians?
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: I tell you, I never--
- I don't know why.
- I just never had any problem.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Never worried about it.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: No.
- My friend, my-- you know Frank, one of my best friends,
- Frank, that-- he's very big.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: He and I went to the same Catholic school
- for eight years, Mount Carmel on Ontario Street.
- Now he wasn't always big like he is now.
- When we were in grammar school, he was a shrimp like me.
- And they were always just-- used to be like at the front
- of those processions.
- You know, they used to graduate the heights.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Well, anyway, he only--
- I didn't even know this until recently,
- but when we came out the front door of Mount Carmel,
- he used to turn right.
- And I used to turn left to go to North Street.
- There weren't very many kids living there.
- That was all stores on North Street.
- So I didn't have a whole lot of friends.
- But he told me recently that he was frequently
- beaten up going that way.
- I don't know why, but nobody ever,
- ever bothered me or followed me or did anything like that.
- I don't have an explanation.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Now, was Frank Italian?
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Yeah, we were all Italian,
- the whole fifty kids in the class.
- ALL: (Laughter)
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: And getting their hands--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, Mount Carmel was all Italian.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: And getting their hands (unintelligible)
- with the stick.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Although I was sort
- of one of those well-behaved little sissies.
- I wasn't getting too much sticking.
- But I got a few times.
- EVELYN BAILEY: I bet you were cute.
- Do you have a picture of you way back then?
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: I like the picture of me but--
- I have-- I got to show you.
- Come on in the office.
- There's one in Atlantic City that era, 1949 and 1950.
- Tim's got the good picture.
- I still have to find it.
- He ever show it to you?
- EVELYN BAILEY: I don't think so.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Did you see my birthday?
- It was at my birthday it was taken.
- EVELYN BAILEY: (Speaking in distance)
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: (Speaking in distance)
- KEVIN INDOVINO: (Speaking in distance)
- EVELYN BAILEY: Wow.
- Well, we would--
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Well, the best picture's the one that Tim has,
- which I have to find, some birthday
- at the eightieth birthday invitation.
- EVELYN BAILEY: I didn't hear about that.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: You didn't get one?
- I don't know if I have (unintelligible).
- I'm trying to get organized.
- Let's see.
- The birthday invitation--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, (unintelligible) and obviously
- those pictures.
- EVELYN BAILEY: (Speaking in distance) I'll send you a list.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: (Speaking in distance) I think this one--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Kevin?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: (Speaking in distance)
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- Even in New York. (Speaking in distance)
- And it's not that--
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: (Speaking in distance)
- (Laughter)
- EVELYN BAILEY: (Speaking in distance)
- ALL: (Laughter)
- EVELYN BAILEY: But in the beginning that (unintelligible)
- just the information (unintelligible).
- We're (unintelligible) you.
- And, I mean, that 30-second clip, we couldn't--
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: (Speaking in distance)
- KEVIN INDOVINO: We could actually--
- what I'd like to do--
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: (Speaking in distance)
- KEVIN INDOVINO: (Speaking in distance)
- I put it all into (unintelligible).
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: So he came over to my house
- in his East Hampton, and they said,
- We're doing a program about East Hampton on ABC.
- Would you like-- would you be interested in having
- your place shown?"
- So Evelyn do you think for a moment
- that I thought that that was ever going to be included?
- I figured they're going to take extra like they do,
- extra footage and then just put it on the cutting room floor.
- They never even told me.
- I had signed a release though.
- They--
- EVELYN BAILEY: See?
- Once you do that, Tony.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: But they didn't tell me.
- They made it sound like maybe and maybe
- not it'll be in the program.
- I happened to, by the luck of--
- I happened to find out that they were doing that thing a year
- and a half later on ABC on a Sunday night.
- So I sat down.
- Halfway through the program, all of a sudden,
- we're driving up my driveway, up 132 North--
- I thought, oh, my--
- Well, the thing that's horrendous about it
- is because in 1990, I really had become quite jaded
- about that whole operation.
- I used to joke that I was a scullery maid
- and I was sick of it all, and God, if you came to get a room,
- I might hit you.
- ALL: (Laughter)
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: So they came-- when they came to film with
- the cameras--
- they had these portable type cameras--
- it was like in the mid to late morning.
- I look as disheveled as you could possibly look.
- I had a terrible hangover.
- I'd been up until 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning screwing around.
- And they're here.
- And this is all on the program.
- They're asking me about this, what
- they call on the Irish kids.
- They showed the kids I had this little shack in the back--
- I mean, the health department should have condemned it--
- and then they were showing me trying to rent it to them.
- And then they showed--
- unbeknownst to me until I saw the program-- they
- went in there with the kids.
- These were all these young Irish kids
- that used to come for the summer to work there in East Hampton.
- And they're calling it a hovel.
- They said, he wants--
- I forget, $5,000 for this hovel?
- They're--
- ALL: [LAUGHTER]
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: So that's all there.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And you couldn't sue them.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: No.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Because you'd signed a release.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Oh, I just take it as a laugh.
- I take it as it's quite funny, but I would not
- want this on this.
- It's not flattering to me at all.
- I'm the evil landlord.
- I look awful.
- I'm just--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: We're really primarily
- interested in your Rochester experiences.
- You know, we'll touch base on your excursions
- to New York and your businesses in New York,
- but also, then why did you choose
- to come back to Rochester?
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: To be honest with you,
- New York just got to be too much for-- you know,
- as we sit here right this moment,
- it's the best move I ever made because with my health
- situation, I really wouldn't be able to handle
- the demands of Manhattan.
- That's a very-- you have to be young there.
- You have to have a lot of energy.
- I could never do all that walking around
- and going up and down subway steps and--
- and even going to all my doctors, I'm at all my doc--
- I have a slew of them here.
- I can go in five or ten minutes to any of these people.
- I don't-- it's not like that there.
- It's not good for older people.
- I feel sorry for them.
- I got out of there when I--
- just at the point where I thought, you know,
- I think I don't want to stay too long at the fair.
- I mean--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So let me backtrack then.
- What were you searching for in New York
- that you weren't finding here in Rochester?
- You know, you're nineteen years old--
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Oh, the high life.
- Sex and men and--
- I was completely uncontrollable, smoking and drinking and--
- you know.
- At that time, I didn't know I was going
- to be in the bath business.
- I had all these little stupid jobs in the mail room
- at MGM and writing boring stuff for a paper called Construction
- News, not making much money, living in, you know, real--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, I read somewhere
- you actually got into the bathhouse business a little bit
- by accident, almost.
- Is that true?
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: No.
- No, there's a real-- there's a reason I got
- into the bathhouse business.
- The reason I got--
- can I be frank?
- EVELYN BAILEY: Absolutely.
- Yes.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: I got in the bathhouse business
- because my type were businessmen, the young Wall
- Street type.
- And I lived on Park Row for many, many years,
- near Chinatown and near City Hall.
- And I knew all the places where these guys used to cruise
- during their lunch hour.
- And you know, it was in public places.
- It was all very sort of risky, but not so risky that--
- they didn't start clamping down.
- They didn't know it was going on in some of these office
- buildings.
- And so I used to do that.
- But then when they did start to catch on,
- then they started locking doors.
- There was a stairway at 120 Broadway that
- was absolutely unbelievable at lunchtime,
- men coming and going.
- And-- what else?
- You're writing this down?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I'm just making notes of these locations.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Well, what happened
- was I guess when they started getting too many complaints,
- because sometimes the secretaries would walk--
- it was a long way from the first floor to the second floor
- because it was one of those huge, high lobbies.
- And it was one of those stairways, went like this,
- you know?
- Square, square, square, square.
- And so when you heard the door open
- up there with those high heels, everybody
- stopped and scattered.
- But they didn't-- there weren't that many of them.
- But you know, there--
- I guess they complained, because as time went on, they locked--
- you couldn't get in those stairways.
- They were locked, except for, you know, fire.
- You could--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: What years are we talking about there?
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: When I was a book salesman,
- that would have been, because my schedule was my own.
- So it was in the early '70s.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: '70s, OK.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: So then there were also
- toilets, a few toilets in some of those buildings
- that were quite crazy at lunch.
- All this is going on at lunchtime.
- And, well, they locked them.
- You had to be working in the-- you know,
- you had to have a key.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: So they were locked.
- And I thought to myself-- my cousin
- Bob is a very enterprising person and at the time,
- so was I, and I said, you know, I knew some of those people,
- and they have no other outlet, those people.
- They're married.
- They have certain trains to catch.
- They have to catch a train, and that's
- that when five o'clock comes.
- Their only outlet is lunch.
- And I said to Bob, "We should open a small--"
- we didn't have the money to compete with the biggies,
- you know, the Everard Bath.
- These are institutions, the Everard,
- the one in the East Village.
- There were, like, about eight.
- The club baths on First Avenue, the Everard Baths
- on thirtysomething.
- The one that became the biggest one of all
- was on East Fifth Street, and it was huge.
- I mean, it was a money machine of all time.
- We were competing with things like that.
- But they were a completely different market.
- That East Village--
- St. Marks-- that East Village, their customers
- were the gay crowd that were out late hours and stuff.
- We didn't aim for those people.
- We aimed for the business people who were limited,
- on a limited time frame.
- So we found this small ex-massage parlor
- at the top floor of a little office building
- at 1 Maiden Lane.
- Don't you love them, this address?
- EVELYN BAILEY: (Laughs) Maiden Lane.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: We found a little--
- it just seemed perfect.
- It was two floors.
- You took the elevator to the top floor
- and then it wasn't very big.
- And then above that, there was a staircase
- that led up to what they called-- the building called--
- the Penthouse.
- Don't confuse it with anything too fancy.
- It was nothing.
- And we got a lease, and we bought
- some used lockers from a club in Queens, a straight club that
- was going out of business.
- I mean, we did everything for spit and Scotch tape.
- We bought these used lockers and moved them ourselves
- with a U-Haul.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Oh, my gosh.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Yes.
- Yeah, that kind of thing.
- Well, I was, at that time, in my--
- 1974 we opened.
- So I was forty-three.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: And--
- EVELYN BAILEY: But the building had an elevator, right?
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: It had one el-- oh, please, that elevator.
- Yeah, it had this old-fashioned--
- this is a very old building.
- It had this decrepit elevator that barely made it up there,
- but boy, did it get busy after our business got there.
- ALL: (Laughter)
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: And for opening night, December 10,
- 1974--
- I wouldn't forget it--
- I used to run an orgy club where I arranged to have
- orgies in people's apartments.
- And we moved, like, every-- every three or four weeks
- we would have it in a different place.
- And I'd go over there and help them with the lighting
- and how to preserve their furniture and, you know,
- I bought the drinks and all that stuff.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And hire some Juilliard
- School of Music students to--
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: No, not for that.
- Not for that.
- So, the opening night, I used the mailing list
- from my orgy club to go to the Wall Street Sauna.
- And that helped us to get a little bit of a start,
- 'cause word spreads fast.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: But not everybody was working,
- and this was for people who--
- a lot of our people took them some time.
- They don't read gay magazines.
- They have no access to them, you know?
- So it took a little time to--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Get established.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: -- to get through to them, you know,
- through word of mouth and stuff.
- But right from the get-go--
- of course, we were--
- there were three of us.
- Three of us that opened that.
- And we worked it.
- We had no employees.
- We worked-- it was all nothing but a desk.
- We did have a cleaning person.
- But we used to, you know, give out the keys and check people.
- And we only had a few rooms, mostly lockers.
- It wasn't big enough.
- And that opened in '74.
- And that led to the East Side Sauna in '76, which was much,
- much bigger and much--
- well, on 56th Street, right next to Bloomingdale's.
- You can imagine the different--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Wow.
- ALL: (Laughter)
- EVELYN BAILEY: I bet the queens loved it.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Oh, of course, all the decorators
- in town at that time were there.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: You know, of course,
- bath businesses are off now because of everybody's cruising
- online.
- But the East Side Sauna is still open.
- The cops finally closed the Wall Street Sauna.
- We had a lot of different district attorneys
- through the years.
- And we just had one that wasn't going to let it go.
- He kept sending people in there to see what was-- and it was--
- the Wall Street Sauna really was--
- there was a lot of public.
- The whole thing was so small.
- There was a lot of sex in the halls.
- And of course, they were reporting-- they were these,
- they'd send plain clothes men in there.
- And--
- EVELYN BAILEY: How long was that open for?
- When did it--
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Oh, it was--
- I remember we had a twenty-fifth anniversary,
- so it was open-- we opened in '74.
- I bet Bob would know the date it was closed.
- It was only closed about four years ago.
- EVELYN BAILEY: OK.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: The East Side Sauna's still open.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- Yep.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: How did you survive the whole AIDS
- era, when they were going through and shutting everybody
- down?
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Yeah, well, that's the mystery of all time,
- that Tim says that I have an angel on my shoulder,
- because they were closing the bathhouses one by one.
- And when they closed the St. Mark's, that
- was a real loss for the people who
- like to go to bathhouses because that was a huge success.
- They even showed-- they were doing exposes
- on television about the bathhouses
- and showing them from the outside.
- They even showed the Wall Street Sauna building,
- this little building on the corner
- of 1 Maiden Lane and Broadway.
- I'll never forget, the camera panned right up
- to the eleventh floor, 'cause then they're
- saying on television, that's where this men's bathhouse is.
- This den of sex.
- And yet, they never closed it in that period,
- and it was early '80s.
- They didn't close it.
- And the East Side either.
- I don't know, some chemistry or something.
- We had to have people come in and do AIDS testing,
- and they had to be allowed to come in there every week
- or something and set up an AIDS thing.
- But we were not closed.
- Everything else was closed.
- Therefore, we picked up--
- of course, but you've also got to remember
- that people were terrified.
- They didn't know what this was.
- Bathhouse business was down.
- It went like that.
- But we had-- there's that, the negative,
- and the positive was that New York Metro
- area is a huge center, with tourists alone every day.
- So in spite of all that, our business
- went up, because there wasn't any other place to go.
- The Wall Street Sauna hardly fit into that.
- It was not known by tourists and stuff.
- They didn't know about--
- you know, it was too far out of the way.
- That was a limited for that market down there.
- So we closed it--
- used to close at nine o'clock at night.
- There wasn't any business there at night then.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: That was a daytime bath.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.
- I'm wondering if they just never really realized what
- was going on during the day.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Well, it--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Probably must've.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: It was shown in the expose on television.
- They showed the outside of the St. Marks.
- They showed-- I don't remember if they showed East Side,
- but I know they showed the building at 1 Maiden Lane.
- They showed that building on that expose.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Oh, they must have known.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, they must have known.
- EVELYN BAILEY: They must have known.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Either that or one of your clients
- told them, hands off.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: You know that some of the married men
- that used to--
- I don't know how moral this is going to be
- for your high school kids--
- but some--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Oh, this will never make it in that.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: But some of the high school kids--
- some of those customers used to use to thank me,
- that we opened that place.
- They said, "Yu don't know what a service you're doing us."
- Because they had no other outlet.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: They were so constrained with those train
- schedules and everything.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Well, you offered a service
- that certainly was wanted and needed by hundreds of people.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Well, now, I don't know what
- that reaction you would get from straight people.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Well, you know, Tony--
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: We had to--
- I got to tell you.
- I got to tell you.
- We were a little devious, because we concocted
- an ad for the gay magazines of New York,
- and it's got two wine glasses, and this very dejected woman.
- And the headline was, "It's five o'clock.
- Do you know where my husband is?:
- And then underneath, Wall Street Sauna, 1 Maiden.
- EVELYN BAILEY: That's great.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Oh, it was fabulous.
- EVELYN BAILEY: That's great.
- You see, I think heterosexual people
- do as much of that-- they have prostitution.
- You know?
- Marry an ad men.
- So what's the difference?
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Well, you're talking
- about doing a documentary for high school kids.
- I don't think you want to go--
- EVELYN BAILEY: No.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: No, this part would not be part of that.
- (Interposing voices)
- EVELYN BAILEY: But it would be a part of your history.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: We would produce almost two documentaries, one
- for film festivals, and then an edited version for schools.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Well I'm in the process of trying
- to go through all my papers.
- That ad is a classic.
- I've got to find that ad.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- Where did you run the ad?
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: We ran it in a magazine called--
- oh, you wouldn't know.
- It was a popular magazine when I--
- in between of opening the two saunas,
- I opened the gay guesthouse.
- That was 19-- the first sauna, '74--
- no, '73 was the bed and breakfast.
- That actually came before anything.
- Then '74 was the Wall Street Sauna.
- '76 was the East Side Sauna.
- And there was a magazine very popular
- in that era in Manhattan.
- It was a very good magazine, not like these little things
- that they have in Florida, not hot spots and stuff.
- It was far above that.
- It had theater reviews and--
- what was it called?
- EVELYN BAILEY: I'll do some research, because it
- may be that that newspaper or that magazine,
- there are issues of it saved in some library or archive or--
- I mean, the Stonewall archives, the--
- you know, there are a lot of different places
- where it might be.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: I'm disappointed
- that I can't even remember the name of that thing.
- And that thing, that magazine practically
- put my B and B on the map, because they
- did a travel review.
- And I entertained the writer, right after I opened it.
- He gave me a smashing review.
- And that really helped me get going out there.
- And here I can't even remember--
- and he's dead.
- And his partner's dead.
- So many people from that era died.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- A lot of people, I would assume.
- So let's go back, Tony.
- The first time you left Rochester for New York, you--
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: '49.
- EVELYN BAILEY: You went down to the city,
- and I think, if I recall correctly,
- that was when you went to a rooming house
- and lived on the third floor?
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: I had $42.
- So I was living from hand to mouth.
- My father said-- first of all-- no,
- he wasn't going to in any way aid or encourage me to--
- I ran away in the first place and hid.
- I hid out for a while before I even--
- and then, through an accident, my sister's husband
- found me in a restaurant with my lover
- here, when I came back through here on my way to New York.
- And they all knew my brother-in-law,
- so they called him because everybody
- didn't know where I was.
- I vanished for two weeks.
- I went to Canada under wraps with a steelworker that I
- met at the Glass Bar. (Laughs)
- KEVIN INDOVINO: (Laughs)
- EVELYN BAILEY: The Underground Railroad goes on.
- What can I say? (Laughs)
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: So coming back through, Tony was here.
- So he knew my favorite restaurant
- was Lorenzo's, an Italian place on Chestnut Street,
- which at the time seemed pretty good.
- Yeah, and the women in there, they all
- knew Joe, my brother-in-law, who we never
- figured out whether he was mafia or not, but they called him.
- I nearly fainted.
- I nearly died when he's at the table.
- That's how fast he got there from Genesee Park Boulevard.
- And I was catching a bus that night.
- He insisted that I stay with him and my sister and talkto
- my parents, 'cause of course they were upset.
- And I was so scared of my father,
- I just thought he was going to entrap me
- and, you know, I was not going to get out
- after that whole two-week ordeal of hiding.
- One week I hid in Canada.
- The other week I had--
- Tony had a bar near Bull's where that Nick Tahou's is?
- He had a bar there, cheap, low-down bar,
- and I stayed upstairs on this--
- I mean, he had to bring me food.
- That's how scared I was.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- Yeah.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: That was a different era.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
- Yes.
- But it represents how young men who were homosexual
- felt and experienced their life, because you
- wouldn't have been alone.
- I mean, you may have thought you were all alone and the only
- person like you in having this kind of interaction with
- your family, but you weren't.
- If there was one of you, there was twenty of you,
- there was thirty of you, because it was the time.
- It was that--
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: But it wasn't only about being gay.
- My father was very dictatorial.
- He wouldn't let me work for somebody else.
- He had a little business.
- He didn't pay me anything, but he
- demanded that I work-- stay there, in the business.
- There wasn't much business.
- He killed it.
- So I was mostly twiddling my thumbs and reading.
- It was just boring.
- I mean, I hated it.
- I just wanted to get out and do anything else but that,
- sitting around in a shoe store.
- So I didn't-- my first--
- I don't know.
- I had-- I guess I got a job in the mail room at MGM,
- but they didn't pay anything.
- Or either that or I was a busboy at (unintelligible) which was
- (unintelligible).
- EVELYN BAILEY: But the rooming house you stayed in in New York
- was typical of rooming houses--
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Let me think this through.
- I think the first thing I did was stay
- with relatives in the Bronx.
- I don't think I was even savvy enough to get a room--
- I didn't have that kind of money to go get rooms.
- They lived way, way up the end of the line.
- It was like another planet.
- It was so far.
- The subway was an hour and a half to get downtown.
- I think I-- yeah, I stayed with them, I think,
- the first time, for a few months, because I
- didn't have too many options.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- And then you came back to Rochester?
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Well, let's see.
- At some point, I had to come back
- because I thought I was being drafted.
- I told you that.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: I don't-- did I stay--
- I guess I must have stayed in New York a couple of years.
- And then that's probably when I left them
- and got into that rooming house for six or seven bucks a week.
- On the West Side.
- With the phone down under.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- First floor and you up on the--
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: And that's all I do is get phone calls.
- That's all I was doing was running
- up and down those stairs.
- Is that ever quaint in this day and age of cell phones?
- ALL: (Laughter)
- EVELYN BAILEY: I know.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: It reminds me of an old I Love Lucy episode
- where they were in Italy or someplace and they were up--
- had them staying on the third floor
- and they kept getting calls and they kept running up and down.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: And this was a pay phone, you know,
- wasn't even a phone.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: When the Korean War--
- I have to ask Frank when people were being drafted.
- That's when I guess when I came--
- I went into college in 1951.
- Remember, I went-- in April of '51, I was-- turned 4F.
- So that fits right in then.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, the Korean War was '50 through '54.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Well, '51 is when the draft called me,
- and I--
- they had this address.
- Selective Service had Rochester, 434 North Street.
- So I came back for that, thinking fully
- that I was going to be going in there and not to college.
- But my father made me take these pictures with me
- to the physical, of my feet, which were bad.
- And now they're horrible.
- And they, to my complete surprise, they made me 4F.
- And suddenly, I'm back in Rochester,
- fully unexpecting this.
- And I ended up enrolling at Brockport State Teachers
- College that July in an accelerated three-year program.
- And that really started changing things for me.
- I got a little more sense, but I thought
- I was going to be a writer.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
- You mentioned that.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: And from there, I went to Columbia
- for a master's in drama.
- And then I started working, you know, first
- as a copywriter in advertising here in (unintelligible).
- Then I went to Philadelphia, NW Air,
- and then I decided after those two advertising agencies,
- I didn't really want to be in corporate work.
- I wasn't very happy with that.
- So a friend of mine was in the business
- of selling textbooks to schools, but he was always free.
- We rented a place, him and a group of us
- from Philadelphia one summer.
- Everybody else had to go back to the city on Sunday night,
- and he'd stay in there.
- I said, "You know, I ought to consider something like this.
- I'm trained to be a teacher."
- But he was selling schoolbooks.
- So he took me to one of those textbook conventions
- in Atlantic City.
- And I got a job immediately, just
- went around talking to people at that convention.
- Another low-paying job, but I had a car.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Now, do you remember
- how much a gallon of gas was at that time?
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: No.
- It was cheap, though.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- How much was a pack of cigarettes?
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Oh, I know how much those
- were 'cause I used to smoke.
- They were $0.15 when I was--
- when I first got out of high school.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Wow.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Fifteen.
- And during the war, you couldn't get them.
- I don't even know if they were available at all
- or if they were rationed.
- Some things were rationed.
- I don't think I was smoking quite that much in high school,
- but I got out in '48.
- At that point I was smoking.
- Then you could get cigarettes, though there
- were long lines when they first became available
- after the war, long lines.
- But they were $0.15.
- And only certain stores.
- You know, like there was a chain called Dawe's Drugstore.
- And I remember you could go to get in line at Dawe's
- for cigarettes after the war, when the war first ended.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- I remember there was a Dawe's in Boston,
- on the corner of Huntington Avenue and Longwood.
- And then it became Spar's and it was there all
- through my college career.
- Yeah.
- But it was Dawe's first.
- So they must have been a national chain of some sort.
- $0.15 a package.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Yeah, I don't remember what gas was.
- Actually, I didn't drive a car 'til I was 27.
- EVELYN BAILEY: How did you get around?
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Well, living at 434 North Street, which
- is Ontario and North, I used to-- you could walk downtown
- in those days.
- I mean, you wouldn't--
- even by twenty years after that, you wouldn't do it.
- It became very, very dangerous to be
- walking around there at night.
- But during high school years, you
- could walk down to see a movie, down to Main Street.
- And there were people downtown.
- It wasn't like now.
- There were movie theaters and these clubs I was telling you
- about, not just gay ones.
- Open Box had a nightclub on the corner of Clinton and Main,
- a regular nightclub.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- And there were movie theaters downtown.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Yes, there were movie theaters,
- and there were--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: A lot of them.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Huh?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: There was a lot of movie theaters
- downtown I believe.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Yes, and there were--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: They used to be all vaudeville theaters, right?
- They were originally vaudeville theaters,
- and then I think then they turned them
- into movie theaters.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Well, the vaudeville theater
- was on South Avenue.
- That became a burlesque house.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Do you remember what the name of that was,
- the vaudeville theater?
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: I'm sure that would be on Google.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, I know.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: I remember the movie theaters, the Lowe's
- on Clinton, the Palace on Clinton,
- which is a shame they tore that down.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Was the RKO--
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: The RKO Palace.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: There was the Lyceum.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: There was the Regent on East Avenue.
- Near The Little on the other side of the street.
- And there was a Century, which they changed the name, I think,
- near the Palace on Clinton.
- The Century Theater became something--
- Paramount.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Paramount.
- Wow.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, that's amazing.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: And they had a little dump on Fitzhugh or--
- yeah, Fitzhugh and Main, where you could go for $0.15
- because they were second runs.
- The Capital.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Oh, right, yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: So it was $0.15 to go to the movies?
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: At the Capital.
- I don't know what the--
- what were the other shows charge--
- I don't know.
- Not much. $0.35?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, I've heard $0.25 or $0.50, maybe.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Wow.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: But what was the name
- of the burlesque house on South Avenue that
- used to be a vaudeville house?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: It wasn't the Lyceum, was it?
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: The reason I don't remember is that was--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Corinthian?
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: No, it wasn't that.
- I think I would have remembered.
- But that's on Google, I'm sure.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- Yeah.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: You mean the Lyceum.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Lyceum, yeah.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Maybe.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: It seems like that one
- was on South Avenue, 'cause I've seen pictures of it.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: It was on South Avenue,
- next to a chocolate store called--
- you remember the famous chocolate store there,
- near there?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, those--
- EVELYN BAILEY: I wasn't in Rochester then.
- And if I was, I was a nun, cloistered, kind of.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Well, as you well know,
- Rochester had a sort of a downtown bar.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Oh yeah.
- My mother talks about it all the time.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: When I first came out--
- so I was able to walk downtown.
- I never took the bus.
- That cost money, and I didn't have any.
- I had to save my quarters for a beer at the Glass Bar, $0.25.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: You had to buy at least your first.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Yeah.
- That's exactly how I did it.
- (Laughter)
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Where was your father's shoe store?
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: 434 North Street.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: North Street, OK.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: It was there at Ontario.
- So you see, kids didn't live over there.
- Or Frank was on Scio Street.
- I don't know if you know these streets.
- EVELYN BAILEY: I know Scio.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Well, he was over that way,
- so that's where people lived.
- That's where they had these houses.
- When we were on North Street, it was all businesses
- and there really were no kids around there.
- Maybe a few on Davis and Ontario, but not many.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Between there and Mount Carmel.
- And then there was this great big Bond baking thing
- that took up a whole block on North Street between Ontario
- and Woodward.
- That was all big Bond Bakery.
- So not residential.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- Yeah.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: We were living above the shoe store.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Was the Genesee Brewery--
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: No, that was on Clinton.
- EVELYN BAILEY: But it was in existence.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Yeah, they were making Genny beer--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Oh yeah, been there since 1898.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: They were making Genny beer.
- That's what people were drinking in the bars in the early days
- that I can recall.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- Yeah.
- Wow.
- When you finally left Rochester and, you know, were--
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Well, which finally?
- You mean--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Well, when you went to New York
- and established your businesses and had this--
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: I didn't go straight-- when I graduated,
- I went to New York for my master's.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Then came back to Rochester again because--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: For the draft.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: No, no, that was after the draft was over.
- I came back when I got my master's because I just
- couldn't make it.
- I just couldn't seem to make it happen in New York.
- I mean, I couldn't live any more in those dumps.
- And you know, it turns out that when I came--
- I graduated from Columbia in '56,
- and I stayed here for four or five years.
- Turns out now those were the best years of my life,
- because I appreciated my parents.
- We were on very different terms.
- I was working then, out.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: I was working at (unintelligible)
- and another place (unintelligible) doing writing.
- I had writing jobs.
- And they let me do whatever I wanted to do.
- I was out until three and four in the morning,
- no questions asked.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So talk to me about that, then.
- Talk to me about that five-year period that you came back here.
- Was it different at all, the gay community,
- than it was back in '48, '49?
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: I thought it was growing a little bit.
- Seemed to me like it was more fun.
- I think by then Dick's--
- it was Dick's open on that street where McFarland's was--
- Stone Street, that's where they moved to.
- That's where Dick-- Martha's moved to Stone Street.
- It just seemed like, you know, I had plenty of dates.
- I mean, I had people I was seeing regularly,
- but they were all--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Was there any harassment
- at that point, during that time of--
- other than--
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Not at work or not--
- EVELYN BAILEY: The gay bars?
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Not that I can recall.
- They were very crowded on weekends.
- There wasn't any computer cruising.
- You did it at the bars.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- And was it still mixed, like--
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: No, it was not like that anymore, no.
- Martha's was Martha's.
- That was a gay bar, period.
- I think the place on--
- I think they kept them both going first.
- I think they had the place on Front Street and the place
- on Stone, because it seems, as I recall, you had some options.
- Oh, and then the Manger Hotel.
- Well, that was the Seneca.
- Then it became the Manger.
- Now that was a very interesting place,
- because that was a mixed bar.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Where was that located?
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: It was at Clinton Avenue
- near around where midtown--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Near McCurdy's.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Right down there.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Yeah, that used to be a hotel.
- And I think the Manger bar was (unintelligible).
- Again, you could get this on Google.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: They had a bar in there
- which was very interesting.
- Businessmen coming through and locals.
- So as I recall, I was working that one.
- And plus I had some regular boyfriends that were--
- I wasn't married to anybody.
- I just had a, you know, variety.
- And then came 1961, I decided I didn't want to be--
- at this point I said, OK, I'm ready now
- to go and face the big world.
- But I went to Philadelphia because I
- got the job from here.
- I already had been hired at a big agency there, NW Air.
- And I stayed there--
- I was very happy in Philadelphia.
- I really loved it.
- It was not as big as New York, and I
- had a nice little apartment.
- And I had pretty good (unintelligible).
- But I didn't want to work for that agency--
- but that's when I switched over to the book--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Selling textbooks.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: -- because that summer,
- we had a place at Cape May.
- We rented, six guys, and I'm telling you,
- Ed was always hanging around that place in the summer.
- And we were going back to work on Sunday night.
- I used to hate that.
- That's when he took me to the convention in Atlantic City
- and I got a job with Singer, which
- then was part of Random House, a division of Random House.
- And they told me they were going to give me
- Philadelphia territory.
- I thought, when I reported for work that first day--
- they didn't tell me this in advance--
- they said, "There's been a change.
- You'll be working in Long Island and three counties in New
- Jersey," spread out all over creation,
- meaning that I had to live in New York
- because that was in the middle.
- I really didn't want to go.
- I had a bad taste from all of those dumps I lived in.
- I literally cried when I left Philadelphia.
- I remember my friends, and I was crying.
- I didn't want to leave.
- But it all worked out.
- I got used to it.
- I went to--
- I lived in Philadelphia from '61 to '64.
- Then I went to New York in '64.
- And lucked out on a fabulous high-rise apartment
- out, over, with a smashing view.
- I don't know what I paid, maybe--
- was it 135 a month?
- I don't know.
- It was quite lovely.
- But it was up on 96th Street, sort of not exactly
- the best, but not a dangerous, and it
- was between First and Second, on 96th.
- And I met somebody, and that was the era when-- you know,
- when I was telling you all the bars were closed.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Except for a couple of subtle ones.
- And there was a hotel on 57th Street called The Allordson.
- And it had a bar called the Menemsha, M-E-N--
- Menemsha.
- M-E-N-E-M-S-H-A, I guess.
- A very dark and sort of an interesting little place.
- And that was like a sort of hidden gay bar.
- And it wasn't huge.
- And it was very interesting.
- And that's where I met someone that played a part in my life,
- really.
- I met him in there.
- And from 96th Street, I moved in with him down--
- that's when I started with the downtown stuff.
- He lived on Park Row.
- And I moved in with him first, for many years.
- And then later, after we got in all these businesses,
- I got my own apartment in there, in the same building.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Wow.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: And Roy's ninety years old
- and he's still alive.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Wow.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: But we-- it got to the point
- where we were no longer lovers.
- We were just friends.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: And he was my original partner
- in the Wall Street Sauna, with Bob, the three of us.
- And then he helped me buy that property in Long Island, which
- I didn't have the money to do by myself, even
- for the down payment.
- I didn't have a lot of money, even then.
- I was already forty-something.
- I was just a working bloke, you know.
- It's hard to save money when you're in that position.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- Right.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: And then it all changed with the saunas.
- EVELYN BAILEY: And with Long Island.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: And Long Island,
- which was only open from-- but through my own choice--
- from Memorial Day to Labor Day.
- But I ran it in such a manner--
- I ran it very economically.
- And it made a substantial amount of money
- in that period of time.
- You know, some people would work all year for that.
- And I was paying off my mortgage while running
- that all those twenty-whatever years, twenty-one years.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: And when I subdivided-- it
- was a big property and I subdivided.
- It took forever with these (unintelligible)
- They didn't want things to change much.
- It took a long time, but I got two (unintelligible)
- and sold them both.
- So that was a big bonanza, 'cause by then
- the prices had escalated to lunacy in East Hampton.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Oh, yeah.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yep.
- Incredible story, Tony.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Well, I want to write it.
- EVELYN BAILEY: I know.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: You should.
- EVELYN BAILEY: I know, and you should.
- You should.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: And I didn't give you
- any of the dirty details to-- that was just surface stuff.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: What is your perspective of,
- you know, the young kids now?
- You know, that they're out there, and they're--
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: I have to admit to you
- that I feel disconnected.
- I don't know.
- I don't know.
- Does it happen to everybody?
- Or I can't--
- I find it hard to relate to them, so I don't.
- It's too much of an effort.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: It's all so different.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.
- And you've seen it.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Huh?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: You've seen the growth.
- You've seen the development.
- You've seen the setbacks.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- I mean--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Did you ever think
- that there would come a day where gay marriage would
- be legal in New York?
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: No.
- And you know what?
- I guess it's because we all like our youth so much,
- but I wouldn't change a note of those-- dancing at the Oasis.
- I'll never forget how exciting-- that was so damned exciting
- after four years of high school, having to go to those dances
- and dance with girls.
- It was, you know--
- oh.
- Dancing--
- EVELYN BAILEY: It was the prime.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Oh, dancing with a guy
- was just so thrilling.
- To be able to do it, I mean, in public, not in your house.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yep.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, sort of in public, in a back room, right?
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: The back room.
- (Laughter)
- In a back room.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Doesn't that tell you how far we've come?
- Dancing.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Absolutely.
- But that's why we need to speak to people like you,
- because my generation and the generation today--
- they don't know that.
- They--
- EVELYN BAILEY: No.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: It would totally astound them
- that, you know, what do you mean we
- have to dance in a back room?
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: I'm not even sure that if you told them that
- it would really-- they could grasp just what that--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Right.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: I don't think they could--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: No, they don't understand.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: I don't think they could grasp it.
- It's come too far.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Which is exactly why
- we need to do this documentary, so that we can tell that story
- and make them realize just how fortunate they are because
- of people like you and people who have come up
- through ranks to make change and to, you know, get out there
- and make a life for themselves.
- EVELYN BAILEY: People think, and young people
- think, the freedom that they have today will never go away.
- But there may come a time in the future when conservatism
- becomes the rule of the land and again we're
- forced to not be so open, to not be so public.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Oh, there's no question about that, Evelyn.
- If you look through from the Roman times,
- there have been different periods--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Right.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: -- with homosexuality.
- And even beyond, even further back to the Greeks
- and all-- no, it's up and down.
- It changes.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
- And we're at this point, but it will come back.
- It will come down again.
- And the rights we have are very fragile.
- Young people don't understand how fragile they are.
- And they can be wiped away in a heartbeat.
- It all depends upon who's in power and who's in control,
- you know?
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: And there could
- be-- you know, nothing is permanent in this life.
- EVELYN BAILEY: No.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: There could be a whole change in regime--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Absolutely.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: -- fifty years from now.
- EVELYN BAILEY: So Tony, if you--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: They could all start learning Chinese fifty
- years from now.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Well, that's what I was thinking.
- If the Chinese were to become the dominant thing and this
- were not something that they approved of, wow.
- Talk about turning back the hands of time.
- I don't even know what they allow in China itself,
- if anything.
- EVELYN BAILEY: I don't either.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: My perception is that it's very secretive.
- Except in Hong Kong.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Except in Hong Kong.
- But Hong Kong was never--
- EVELYN BAILEY: And maybe Shanghai?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, maybe.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: You know, of course,
- that Bill and Rick just returned.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.
- ANTHONY MASCIOLI: But they were visiting his son,
- so I don't think they did a lot of exploring of that, but--