Audio Interview, Tony Mascioli, November 2011

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Fox sponsored this half-hour show,

I think it was every week.

And because we had a special gimmick on Sunday afternoons,

we had play--

young musicians from the Juilliard School.

EVELYN BAILEY: Oh, yeah.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Well, that attracted their attention,

and they asked us if we would like to put

the place on their program.

Well, we needed all the free publicity we could get.

At the time, there were like ten bathhouses in New York.

This was 1976, before AIDS.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: So I agreed to be the person interviewed

for this.

A woman interviewed me.

And I showed no mercy in the frankness

because it was that kind of a program.

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: So Tim says, "I think you ought to let--

I think they ought to put whatever you're doing here--"

he says, "They ought to put that in there, that infomercial."

EVELYN BAILEY: Do you have a copy of that?

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Well, I only have one copy.

I'm in the process of having Greg Winter convert it

from that awful VHS, which it has

to be done anyway, because it's going to deteriorate.

And I wanted to give it to a few people.

In some ways, it's hysterical.

In some ways, it gives you a sense

of what was going on in the '70s.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: This was made in 1976.

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: And Greg--

I never play those things.

So he set up my--

that player in the office.

I didn't want it in here, because I don't use it.

But I do have to measure the numbers on the tape,

so he converted onto that.

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: So at that time--

I don't know how soon all this is happening.

I don't know how long--

much time you need for such things, or do

you want to even--

EVELYN BAILEY: Well--

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Or do you even want

me to attempt to set it up--

if I can get it to play, it's going to--

EVELYN BAILEY: If Greg is going to make copies

for you, if we could get a copy of it,

that would be sufficient.

The goal is to finish this in time

for the ImageOut Festival next year, 2012.

That's the goal.

Now that means we have to raise--

we have to raise a total of 120, but we need 40

to do the filming.

I've already raised, through the $3 bill campaign

and through other people, about 7,000 or 8,000

of the forty that we need immediately to go

into filming and production.

But my personal goal--

the Alliance was incorporated in 1973.

I want this done by its fortieth anniversary, which

will be 2013.

I'm shooting for 2012, hoping we can get everything we need

and get it done.

But by 2013, it will be finished.

It will be complete.

And I have committed myself to do

nothing else but this project until it gets done

and I raise the money.

Do you know Christopher Layton, the designer?

I've been talking to him.

And I'm going to ask him for a large chunk.

He offered to help finance a new building for the Alliance.

Well, I already told him the Alliance

doesn't need a new building.

As a matter of fact, I'm not sure having

a building in this day and age is the way to go.

I mean, it's, one, a huge expense,

but two, the upkeep, the maintenance, you know,

all of that.

You've got to have a longevity of financial resources

that will continue to feed that.

And the Alliance will always be in existence.

That's not going away.

But would it be better to not have a building

and use that money for programming?

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Well, that's an interesting concept,

but look at the one in New York.

They have a huge place.

EVELYN BAILEY: I know.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Am I allowed to have a cocktail?

EVELYN BAILEY: Absolutely.

This is your home.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: I think I need something to--

my eye is really bothering me.

Of course, you don't want one, or do you?

EVELYN BAILEY: No, I don't.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: The last time I

saw you were sitting in that restaurant, you said--

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: "I'm having a martini.

I deserve it."

EVELYN BAILEY: (Laughs) That's because I'd

turned sixty-five, Tony.

Sixty-five.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: When did you turn Sixty-five?

EVELYN BAILEY: October 27th.

CREW: October 27th was-- (recording ends)

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: You think it's not that long ago, really.

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: I mean, that you had to go into a bar,

there was a paid policeman sitting there at a desk,

and you had to write your name down-- almost like being

in Nazi Germany.

If it was even open at all, they had

a cop at the entrance sitting at a desk

and watching everything that was going on.

You couldn't leave with anybody or anything like that.

It was all being watched.

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, see, and I--

you know, I didn't come out until late '80s.

So when I came out, the gay community was there.

They're visible.

They're vocal.

They're--

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Oh, yeah.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Where did you come out, here?

KEVIN INDOVINO: Here, yeah.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: You're from Rochester originally?

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yep.

But we need to talk to people like you

because, yeah, we've got this great resource now,

the forty years of The Empty Closet

to look at the history from 1971 on,

but we need to talk to people like you to tell us,

what was it like before 1971 here?

You know, what was it--

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Well, you got to remember that I really left.

I wasn't here.

EVELYN BAILEY: But when--

KEVIN INDOVINO: But when did you leave?

EVELYN BAILEY: Well--

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: I came out in 1948,

so I can tell you about that.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So yeah, the '48s,

the '50s, that's what we're looking for, you know.

EVELYN BAILEY: And please don't be upset,

but when were you born?

What's your birth date, Tony?

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Oh, date?

Of the year?

The month and year?

December 19, 30.

EVELYN BAILEY: December 19, 1930.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: And I came out at the earliest possible moment

when I got out of high school.

I mean, I knew where the gay bar was and everything.

EVELYN BAILEY: What gay bar?

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Well, there was one

on-- it was a mixed place.

It was on South-- it was on Clinton Avenue,

called the Glass Bar.

KEVIN INDOVINO: The Glass Bar?

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: Never heard of it.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Well, it wasn't

completely gay, but mostly.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Was it like North Clinton, South Clinton?

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: It was, well, you

have to take those buildings that were there.

There was the Seneca that became the Manger, which

became Midtown Plaza.

There was a hotel there.

Not too far toward Court Street, not too far, in the middle of--

KEVIN INDOVINO: Oh, so right downtown, then?

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Yeah, it was right downtown.

And it was on the second floor.

You had to go in and go up the stair, a flight of stairs.

And it was a very interesting place.

Of course, I was just coming out.

And you know, they had entertainment of sorts.

They always had a three-piece combo

playing up on top of the bar.

Had a little class to it, you know.

Strippers sometimes, female strippers.

Not male.

And people sat around the bar.

It was a sort of happening place for the time.

And that was '48, '49.

I don't even remember exactly when they closed, because then

I went away in '49.

And then I came to New York, and then I

came back here for a few years.

That place wasn't there anymore.

Then there was another place called the Oasis.

Did anybody ever mention that?

KEVIN INDOVINO: No.

EVELYN BAILEY: No.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Well, the Oasis

was not very-- it was a very short-lived affair.

It was on South Avenue beyond the library a little bit.

And can you believe, the thing that made the Oasis

such a hot ticket was they--

you could-- they had a back room.

And nowadays back rooms are for sex.

That was a back room for dancing.

That was a big deal, being--

that was quite thrilling, to be able to go dancing with a man.

EVELYN BAILEY: Why?

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Horrible.

EVELYN BAILEY: Why?

We--

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Well, you couldn't dance in-- no,

dancing between men and the same (unintelligible)-- well,

women danced, even at weddings and all that stuff.

But men didn't dance together, and they

weren't even allowed to.

EVELYN BAILEY: Was there a law against it?

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Well, I don't know,

but when I was working in Atlantic City during that era,

'49, '50, they had a place--

not in Atlantic City.

You had to drive out in the--

fifteen, twenty miles out just to this roadhouse.

And you could dance there.

But no, it was all very sub rosa.

No, it was not legal at all.

They could arrest you, I think.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, they would usually

raid the place if they saw--

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Yeah, they'd raid it.

KEVIN INDOVINO: -- two men dancing.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Just for dancing.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Right.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

Wow.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So like, you know, in '48, '49

here in Rochester, how did you find out

about the gay community?

How did you know where to go?

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: I was sexually motivated

from the time I was six.

And I just--

I kind of knew a couple of people

that I thought were in the club, so to speak, in high school.

But we never really got too thick.

I had my own friends.

I was very much in love with a straight guy.

But as soon as I got out of high school,

and I was old enough to get served--

eighteen then-- I started going to the Glass Bar.

I'd go in there and buy one drink, and within five minutes,

I'd have five or six beers.

That's-- was the style then.

People were sending me all the drinks.

I was a hot little ticket.

KEVIN INDOVINO: (Laughs)

EVELYN BAILEY: I bet you were.

I've heard that from other people.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Oh, have you?

EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.

Tim Tompkins said you were something else.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Yeah, those were the glory days.

And I took every advantage of it of.

I was one date right after another.

But anyway.

KEVIN INDOVINO: What year then did you leave for New York?

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Well, I have to think about it.

'48 is when I started going to the Glass Bar.

There was another place on Front Street, the original.

Not the one that later became Martha's,

but her husband, Dick, ran a joint on Front Street.

Did you know about that?

KEVIN INDOVINO: I know about Front Street, but I was--

I'm trying to find out--

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: It was a--

KEVIN INDOVINO: -- within that district if there was a few gay

bars in that area.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Well, it was a few feet

from Main Street on the river side,

when you couldn't see the river.

In those days, Front Street was a wall of buildings.

You know, you didn't even know there was a river there.

And this was a haunt, a dive, just a bar, very--

mixed with dregs of humanity, you know.

That was for-- that was like the Bowery, Front Street.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Right.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: So some of them would be in this place,

but mostly it was an off--

you know, it was a gay bar, so there

was that one and the Glass Bar.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Do you remember the name

of the bar on Front Street?

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Dick's.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Dick's.

OK.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: It was Dick's.

And then Martha got involved with him,

and then that became an institution later on.

I think they moved--

two of them moved to another location on Front Street,

across on this side.

I think they started demolishing that side to open it up.

So I'm pretty sure they opened on the other side of Front

Street, the two of them.

She used to work there as a barmaid.

And then they moved uptown, so to speak, on Stone Street,

you know, and that part you've probably heard about.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Haven't you?

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

Martha, was her last name Gruttadauria?

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Oh, I don't know.

I don't know what her last name was.

EVELYN BAILEY: Is she the one who was killed?

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: She was brutally murdered.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.

Her last name was Gruttadauria.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Was it Gruttadauria?

EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Really?

KEVIN INDOVINO: From the Gruttadauria bakery people?

EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.

They were-- I understand.

I don't know, because in 1948, I was two, in Boston.

But I heard they were mafia, the Gruttadauria--

KEVIN INDOVINO: Oh, yeah.

EVELYN BAILEY: -- family.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: I don't know.

I don't know.

There was a sort of a gangstery guy

that used to run the Glass Bar.

I don't know whatever became of him

and why that bar closed, but I know he was making--

he must've been making money there.

Then-- you know how one thing leads to another avenue when

you're telling--

but you want to--

I can't give it the exact year unless I really

do some thinking about--

then there was a sort of what elegant--

there were two elegant bars.

There was one on Gibbs Street, across from the Eastman

Theater, called the Town and Country.

Did you ever--

KEVIN INDOVINO: Oh, yeah.

I knew about that.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: And that--

now, where does that, exactly--

was that later?

Was that a--

KEVIN INDOVINO: That--

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: That was in the '50s.

KEVIN INDOVINO: That was very big in the '50s and '60s

if I remember, even maybe up until the '70s,

I think it was very big.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Oh, that long?

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Two men ran that place.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: And then there was one on East Avenue,

but not completely gay, which I loved, called the 44 and 1/2.

KEVIN INDOVINO: The 44 and 1/2?

EVELYN BAILEY: 44 and 1/2.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: At 44 and 1/2 East Avenue.

EVELYN BAILEY: Never heard of that one.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: It was--

I mean, and things were chicer then than they are now.

This was a little club that had wonderful singers.

I know you've probably never heard of Jeri Southern,

but they had the likes of Jeri Southern singing there.

You know, she was--

she never became any Peggy Lee, but I loved her.

And I still have her records.

And I caught her act there, just singing and the piano player,

you know.

And it was very elegant, 44 and 1/2 East Avenue.

But I don't know.

That only lasted, I think, a few years.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So tell me, then,

I mean, back in '40s, early '50s,

was there a sort of mix of the gay community

with the straight community at these wonderful clubs?

Was it kind of hush-hush, or--?

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Well, like the guy I told you about,

Mike Cinani, that I was in love with in high school,

he used to patronize the Glass Bar.

I used to patronize the Glass Bar.

I mean, we're there for two completely different things.

That might give me and you a clue.

He was looking for women.

So there had to be women there, because he was getting them.

And there were men there.

It was luscious.

I mean, I-- well, of course, I was young at the time.

But it was exciting.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: And then they had the stripper on the stage,

right on top of the bar, with the wonderful three-piece

music.

You know, I found it all very exciting.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, what about the community's attitudes

towards gays and lesbians?

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: I tell you, I never--

I don't know why.

I just never had any problem.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Never worried about it.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: No.

My friend, my-- you know Frank, one of my best friends,

Frank, that-- he's very big.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yes.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: He and I went to the same Catholic school

for eight years, Mount Carmel on Ontario Street.

Now he wasn't always big like he is now.

When we were in grammar school, he was a shrimp like me.

And they were always just-- used to be like at the front

of those processions.

You know, they used to graduate the heights.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Well, anyway, he only--

I didn't even know this until recently,

but when we came out the front door of Mount Carmel,

he used to turn right.

And I used to turn left to go to North Street.

There weren't very many kids living there.

That was all stores on North Street.

So I didn't have a whole lot of friends.

But he told me recently that he was frequently

beaten up going that way.

I don't know why, but nobody ever,

ever bothered me or followed me or did anything like that.

I don't have an explanation.

EVELYN BAILEY: Now, was Frank Italian?

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Yeah, we were all Italian,

the whole fifty kids in the class.

ALL: (Laughter)

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: And getting their hands--

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, Mount Carmel was all Italian.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: And getting their hands (unintelligible)

with the stick.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Although I was sort

of one of those well-behaved little sissies.

I wasn't getting too much sticking.

But I got a few times.

EVELYN BAILEY: I bet you were cute.

Do you have a picture of you way back then?

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: I like the picture of me but--

I have-- I got to show you.

Come on in the office.

There's one in Atlantic City that era, 1949 and 1950.

Tim's got the good picture.

I still have to find it.

He ever show it to you?

EVELYN BAILEY: I don't think so.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Did you see my birthday?

It was at my birthday it was taken.

EVELYN BAILEY: (Speaking in distance)

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: (Speaking in distance)

KEVIN INDOVINO: (Speaking in distance)

EVELYN BAILEY: Wow.

Well, we would--

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Well, the best picture's the one that Tim has,

which I have to find, some birthday

at the eightieth birthday invitation.

EVELYN BAILEY: I didn't hear about that.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: You didn't get one?

I don't know if I have (unintelligible).

I'm trying to get organized.

Let's see.

The birthday invitation--

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, (unintelligible) and obviously

those pictures.

EVELYN BAILEY: (Speaking in distance) I'll send you a list.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: (Speaking in distance) I think this one--

EVELYN BAILEY: Kevin?

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: (Speaking in distance)

EVELYN BAILEY: Right.

Even in New York. (Speaking in distance)

And it's not that--

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: (Speaking in distance)

(Laughter)

EVELYN BAILEY: (Speaking in distance)

ALL: (Laughter)

EVELYN BAILEY: But in the beginning that (unintelligible)

just the information (unintelligible).

We're (unintelligible) you.

And, I mean, that 30-second clip, we couldn't--

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: (Speaking in distance)

KEVIN INDOVINO: We could actually--

what I'd like to do--

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: (Speaking in distance)

KEVIN INDOVINO: (Speaking in distance)

I put it all into (unintelligible).

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: So he came over to my house

in his East Hampton, and they said,

We're doing a program about East Hampton on ABC.

Would you like-- would you be interested in having

your place shown?"

So Evelyn do you think for a moment

that I thought that that was ever going to be included?

I figured they're going to take extra like they do,

extra footage and then just put it on the cutting room floor.

They never even told me.

I had signed a release though.

They--

EVELYN BAILEY: See?

Once you do that, Tony.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: But they didn't tell me.

They made it sound like maybe and maybe

not it'll be in the program.

I happened to, by the luck of--

I happened to find out that they were doing that thing a year

and a half later on ABC on a Sunday night.

So I sat down.

Halfway through the program, all of a sudden,

we're driving up my driveway, up 132 North--

I thought, oh, my--

Well, the thing that's horrendous about it

is because in 1990, I really had become quite jaded

about that whole operation.

I used to joke that I was a scullery maid

and I was sick of it all, and God, if you came to get a room,

I might hit you.

ALL: (Laughter)

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: So they came-- when they came to film with

the cameras--

they had these portable type cameras--

it was like in the mid to late morning.

I look as disheveled as you could possibly look.

I had a terrible hangover.

I'd been up until 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning screwing around.

And they're here.

And this is all on the program.

They're asking me about this, what

they call on the Irish kids.

They showed the kids I had this little shack in the back--

I mean, the health department should have condemned it--

and then they were showing me trying to rent it to them.

And then they showed--

unbeknownst to me until I saw the program-- they

went in there with the kids.

These were all these young Irish kids

that used to come for the summer to work there in East Hampton.

And they're calling it a hovel.

They said, he wants--

I forget, $5,000 for this hovel?

They're--

ALL: [LAUGHTER]

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: So that's all there.

EVELYN BAILEY: And you couldn't sue them.

KEVIN INDOVINO: No.

EVELYN BAILEY: Because you'd signed a release.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Oh, I just take it as a laugh.

I take it as it's quite funny, but I would not

want this on this.

It's not flattering to me at all.

I'm the evil landlord.

I look awful.

I'm just--

KEVIN INDOVINO: We're really primarily

interested in your Rochester experiences.

You know, we'll touch base on your excursions

to New York and your businesses in New York,

but also, then why did you choose

to come back to Rochester?

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: To be honest with you,

New York just got to be too much for-- you know,

as we sit here right this moment,

it's the best move I ever made because with my health

situation, I really wouldn't be able to handle

the demands of Manhattan.

That's a very-- you have to be young there.

You have to have a lot of energy.

I could never do all that walking around

and going up and down subway steps and--

and even going to all my doctors, I'm at all my doc--

I have a slew of them here.

I can go in five or ten minutes to any of these people.

I don't-- it's not like that there.

It's not good for older people.

I feel sorry for them.

I got out of there when I--

just at the point where I thought, you know,

I think I don't want to stay too long at the fair.

I mean--

KEVIN INDOVINO: So let me backtrack then.

What were you searching for in New York

that you weren't finding here in Rochester?

You know, you're nineteen years old--

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Oh, the high life.

Sex and men and--

I was completely uncontrollable, smoking and drinking and--

you know.

At that time, I didn't know I was going

to be in the bath business.

I had all these little stupid jobs in the mail room

at MGM and writing boring stuff for a paper called Construction

News, not making much money, living in, you know, real--

KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, I read somewhere

you actually got into the bathhouse business a little bit

by accident, almost.

Is that true?

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: No.

No, there's a real-- there's a reason I got

into the bathhouse business.

The reason I got--

can I be frank?

EVELYN BAILEY: Absolutely.

Yes.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: I got in the bathhouse business

because my type were businessmen, the young Wall

Street type.

And I lived on Park Row for many, many years,

near Chinatown and near City Hall.

And I knew all the places where these guys used to cruise

during their lunch hour.

And you know, it was in public places.

It was all very sort of risky, but not so risky that--

they didn't start clamping down.

They didn't know it was going on in some of these office

buildings.

And so I used to do that.

But then when they did start to catch on,

then they started locking doors.

There was a stairway at 120 Broadway that

was absolutely unbelievable at lunchtime,

men coming and going.

And-- what else?

You're writing this down?

KEVIN INDOVINO: I'm just making notes of these locations.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Well, what happened

was I guess when they started getting too many complaints,

because sometimes the secretaries would walk--

it was a long way from the first floor to the second floor

because it was one of those huge, high lobbies.

And it was one of those stairways, went like this,

you know?

Square, square, square, square.

And so when you heard the door open

up there with those high heels, everybody

stopped and scattered.

But they didn't-- there weren't that many of them.

But you know, there--

I guess they complained, because as time went on, they locked--

you couldn't get in those stairways.

They were locked, except for, you know, fire.

You could--

KEVIN INDOVINO: What years are we talking about there?

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: When I was a book salesman,

that would have been, because my schedule was my own.

So it was in the early '70s.

KEVIN INDOVINO: '70s, OK.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: So then there were also

toilets, a few toilets in some of those buildings

that were quite crazy at lunch.

All this is going on at lunchtime.

And, well, they locked them.

You had to be working in the-- you know,

you had to have a key.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: So they were locked.

And I thought to myself-- my cousin

Bob is a very enterprising person and at the time,

so was I, and I said, you know, I knew some of those people,

and they have no other outlet, those people.

They're married.

They have certain trains to catch.

They have to catch a train, and that's

that when five o'clock comes.

Their only outlet is lunch.

And I said to Bob, "We should open a small--"

we didn't have the money to compete with the biggies,

you know, the Everard Bath.

These are institutions, the Everard,

the one in the East Village.

There were, like, about eight.

The club baths on First Avenue, the Everard Baths

on thirtysomething.

The one that became the biggest one of all

was on East Fifth Street, and it was huge.

I mean, it was a money machine of all time.

We were competing with things like that.

But they were a completely different market.

That East Village--

St. Marks-- that East Village, their customers

were the gay crowd that were out late hours and stuff.

We didn't aim for those people.

We aimed for the business people who were limited,

on a limited time frame.

So we found this small ex-massage parlor

at the top floor of a little office building

at 1 Maiden Lane.

Don't you love them, this address?

EVELYN BAILEY: (Laughs) Maiden Lane.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: We found a little--

it just seemed perfect.

It was two floors.

You took the elevator to the top floor

and then it wasn't very big.

And then above that, there was a staircase

that led up to what they called-- the building called--

the Penthouse.

Don't confuse it with anything too fancy.

It was nothing.

And we got a lease, and we bought

some used lockers from a club in Queens, a straight club that

was going out of business.

I mean, we did everything for spit and Scotch tape.

We bought these used lockers and moved them ourselves

with a U-Haul.

EVELYN BAILEY: Oh, my gosh.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Yes.

Yeah, that kind of thing.

Well, I was, at that time, in my--

1974 we opened.

So I was forty-three.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: And--

EVELYN BAILEY: But the building had an elevator, right?

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: It had one el-- oh, please, that elevator.

Yeah, it had this old-fashioned--

this is a very old building.

It had this decrepit elevator that barely made it up there,

but boy, did it get busy after our business got there.

ALL: (Laughter)

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: And for opening night, December 10,

1974--

I wouldn't forget it--

I used to run an orgy club where I arranged to have

orgies in people's apartments.

And we moved, like, every-- every three or four weeks

we would have it in a different place.

And I'd go over there and help them with the lighting

and how to preserve their furniture and, you know,

I bought the drinks and all that stuff.

EVELYN BAILEY: And hire some Juilliard

School of Music students to--

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: No, not for that.

Not for that.

So, the opening night, I used the mailing list

from my orgy club to go to the Wall Street Sauna.

And that helped us to get a little bit of a start,

'cause word spreads fast.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: But not everybody was working,

and this was for people who--

a lot of our people took them some time.

They don't read gay magazines.

They have no access to them, you know?

So it took a little time to--

EVELYN BAILEY: Get established.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: -- to get through to them, you know,

through word of mouth and stuff.

But right from the get-go--

of course, we were--

there were three of us.

Three of us that opened that.

And we worked it.

We had no employees.

We worked-- it was all nothing but a desk.

We did have a cleaning person.

But we used to, you know, give out the keys and check people.

And we only had a few rooms, mostly lockers.

It wasn't big enough.

And that opened in '74.

And that led to the East Side Sauna in '76, which was much,

much bigger and much--

well, on 56th Street, right next to Bloomingdale's.

You can imagine the different--

EVELYN BAILEY: Wow.

ALL: (Laughter)

EVELYN BAILEY: I bet the queens loved it.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Oh, of course, all the decorators

in town at that time were there.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: You know, of course,

bath businesses are off now because of everybody's cruising

online.

But the East Side Sauna is still open.

The cops finally closed the Wall Street Sauna.

We had a lot of different district attorneys

through the years.

And we just had one that wasn't going to let it go.

He kept sending people in there to see what was-- and it was--

the Wall Street Sauna really was--

there was a lot of public.

The whole thing was so small.

There was a lot of sex in the halls.

And of course, they were reporting-- they were these,

they'd send plain clothes men in there.

And--

EVELYN BAILEY: How long was that open for?

When did it--

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Oh, it was--

I remember we had a twenty-fifth anniversary,

so it was open-- we opened in '74.

I bet Bob would know the date it was closed.

It was only closed about four years ago.

EVELYN BAILEY: OK.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: The East Side Sauna's still open.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

Yep.

KEVIN INDOVINO: How did you survive the whole AIDS

era, when they were going through and shutting everybody

down?

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Yeah, well, that's the mystery of all time,

that Tim says that I have an angel on my shoulder,

because they were closing the bathhouses one by one.

And when they closed the St. Mark's, that

was a real loss for the people who

like to go to bathhouses because that was a huge success.

They even showed-- they were doing exposes

on television about the bathhouses

and showing them from the outside.

They even showed the Wall Street Sauna building,

this little building on the corner

of 1 Maiden Lane and Broadway.

I'll never forget, the camera panned right up

to the eleventh floor, 'cause then they're

saying on television, that's where this men's bathhouse is.

This den of sex.

And yet, they never closed it in that period,

and it was early '80s.

They didn't close it.

And the East Side either.

I don't know, some chemistry or something.

We had to have people come in and do AIDS testing,

and they had to be allowed to come in there every week

or something and set up an AIDS thing.

But we were not closed.

Everything else was closed.

Therefore, we picked up--

of course, but you've also got to remember

that people were terrified.

They didn't know what this was.

Bathhouse business was down.

It went like that.

But we had-- there's that, the negative,

and the positive was that New York Metro

area is a huge center, with tourists alone every day.

So in spite of all that, our business

went up, because there wasn't any other place to go.

The Wall Street Sauna hardly fit into that.

It was not known by tourists and stuff.

They didn't know about--

you know, it was too far out of the way.

That was a limited for that market down there.

So we closed it--

used to close at nine o'clock at night.

There wasn't any business there at night then.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: That was a daytime bath.

EVELYN BAILEY: Yeah.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.

I'm wondering if they just never really realized what

was going on during the day.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: Well, it--

KEVIN INDOVINO: Probably must've.

ANTHONY MASCIOLI: It was shown in the expose on television.

They showed the outside of the St. Marks.

They showed-- I don't remember if they showed East Side,

but I know they showed the building at 1 Maiden Lane.

They showed that building on that expose.

EVELYN BAILEY: Oh, they must have known.