Green Thursday, radio program, April 18, 1974

  • (music plays)
  • BRUCE JEWELL: OK.
  • That was Steve Grossman, "Can't Papa Blues."
  • And this is Green Thursday for April 18, 1974
  • and I'm Bruce Jewell.
  • And I've got with me this evening, again, Bob Crystal.
  • And how are you this evening?
  • BOB CRYSTAL: Oh, I'm OK.
  • I'd like to tell people out there
  • that Patti Evans just got back from Albany tonight.
  • And she said that-- she went there to deliver the petitions
  • that people had been signing all over Rochester
  • and all over New York state.
  • And she said that--
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Which petitions?
  • BOB CRYSTAL: The petitions to repeal the sodomy statutes.
  • There's a bill in committee to repeal the consensual sodomy
  • part of the sodomy statutes of New York state.
  • And she said that it looks as though there needs
  • to be a fire lit under the people in the committee
  • and that the people of Rochester,
  • if they want the laws to come out of committee this session,
  • that something has to be done.
  • More than just the petitions.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Well, I'm going to try.
  • Just keep trying, I guess.
  • BOB CRYSTAL: Little by little bit the bird will whittle away
  • the mountain.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: OK.
  • I see there was a reply in the newspaper two Sundays ago,
  • I guess it was, by Mike Royko.
  • Sure enough, there were a great many people
  • who objected to his editorial on the mandate liberation
  • movement.
  • And he was moved to write another column
  • primarily concerning itself with the people who objected
  • to his previous column.
  • And I'd like to read part of that column
  • and make a few comments on it.
  • He said, "Chicago's gay community, as well as
  • many liberals, say they are furious with me.
  • They have bombarded me with letters and phone calls
  • and have picketed the building I work in
  • to receive an apology for the column I wrote.
  • Among the words they have used to describe
  • the column are atrocious, tragic, inhuman,
  • nauseating, etc.
  • The column raised the question of whether marriage
  • between men and monkeys should be condoned in our society.
  • The gay movement correctly deduced
  • that it was a satiric comment on the growing
  • demand by homosexuals that society accept
  • their relationships as normal and that they be permitted
  • to marry and adopt children.
  • They also correctly gathered that I
  • don't think homosexuality is normal
  • or that they should be permitted to marry and adopt children.
  • But they are incorrect when they say I am
  • in favor of persecuting them.
  • As far as I'm concerned, what any two adults, or more
  • if they wish, choose to do is their business, not mine."
  • Now, looking over this comment--
  • well, it goes on.
  • "However, when they talk about society's laws being changed,
  • then it is no longer just their business,
  • it is the business of the rest of society too."
  • OK.
  • I'll agree to that.
  • Certainly changes of laws are the business
  • of society as a whole.
  • However, to say on one hand that he does not
  • favor persecuting homosexuals and then on the other hand
  • to say that he does not approve of changing laws, which
  • do persecute homosexuals, is simply hypocrisy.
  • One cannot really on one hand say, well,
  • I don't want to persecute you, but I don't want to change
  • the laws that arrest you and harass you,
  • and so on, and so on, and so forth.
  • Clearly he is not, in fact, in favor of allowing homosexuals
  • to live as they wish.
  • Moreover, the whole marriage and child adoption problem
  • is not examined by him.
  • I doubt that he knows very much about it.
  • In many instances, it's not so much
  • a matter of adopting children for lesbian women,
  • it's a matter of being able to keep the children that they've
  • already had.
  • He then continues to say that a number
  • of, by his own description, "knee jerk liberals"
  • came into his office and/or called him
  • on the phone objecting to the column.
  • He said, "'Well, why shouldn't they be permitted to marry?'
  • This particular liberal said."
  • Mr. Royko replied, "I answered them by throwing a curve
  • and asking, 'How about legalizing sexual relationships
  • between mother and son, father and daughter, et cetera,
  • et cetera?'
  • The friend looked horrified and gasped, 'Why, that's incest.'
  • 'So what?' I said.
  • 'That's disgusting,' was the answer."
  • Well, Mr. Royko has indeed thrown a curve here.
  • He's proceeded to compare the gay liberation movement,
  • with all its many complexities and many different aspects,
  • to a movement that simply doesn't exist.
  • There's no such thing as incest liberation
  • nor, I think, is there likely to be.
  • He has, again, avoided coming to terms
  • with real situations, which seems
  • to be his particular talent when it
  • comes to this particular issue.
  • Moreover, he's made it perfectly clear
  • that what he is saying is simply, I don't like you.
  • While there's nothing wrong with saying, I don't like you,
  • there is something rather wrong about being
  • hypocritical about it and about being denigrating to the people
  • that you do not like.
  • There is a lesson, by the way, in looking this over.
  • One shouldn't debate other people's metaphors
  • unless you want to play Don Quixote to other people's
  • windmills.
  • Stick to issues.
  • Mr. Royko could never--
  • simply could not get away with this type of thing
  • with people who were willing to stick to the issues
  • because he's incapable of handling them.
  • Let's see.
  • Coming up on the twenty first of April
  • is the GAGV meeting, which will be
  • held at the GAGV Center, which is in the Genesee co-op
  • building at 713 Monroe Ave. It's held every Sunday at seven
  • thirty.
  • The meeting this coming Sunday is
  • law enforcement and homosexuals, the policeman's view.
  • This is the first time, I believe,
  • that the GAGV has had a policeman to speak at a meeting
  • and I certainly hope it should be very interesting to hear
  • the exchange and I hope it brings
  • about some understanding on both sides of that particular issue,
  • which is so very touchy.
  • OK, let's have a little bit more music here.
  • Next it's Caravan, "Love to Love You."
  • (music plays)
  • BRUCE JEWELL: This is the news for Green Thursday.
  • Though it seems paradoxical, other gay teachers
  • may benefit from the appeals court ruling recently handed
  • down in Richmond, Virginia, which
  • denied Joseph (unintelligible) for a reinstatement
  • to his junior high school classroom.
  • The Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals
  • let stand a lower court finding that homosexuality by itself
  • is no bar to the teaching profession
  • and took the further step of reversing that lower court's
  • gag provision, which indicated gay teachers must
  • keep their sexual orientation out of the public eye
  • or risk providing their employers with legal grounds
  • for firing them.
  • Should similar cases arise in other parts of the country,
  • the record in the (unintelligible) case
  • may serve as a solid precedent in securing rights
  • of homosexuals to enter the teaching profession
  • and remain on their jobs, even though openly gay,
  • if that is their choice.
  • Despite those major liberal interpretations,
  • the court said (unintelligible) was not
  • entitled to recover the job he lost because he failed
  • to list a college gay organization in his application
  • under outside interests, a point which was not even
  • an issue in the earlier proceedings.
  • (unintelligible), who is now looking for work,
  • was transferred from a teaching position
  • to an administrative job in the Rockville, Maryland school
  • system when it became known he was gay.
  • And his first contract with the system
  • was not renewed last year.
  • The National Education Association,
  • which supported (unintelligible) legal battle thus far,
  • will decide by the end of March whether to continue its backing
  • through a Supreme Court appeal.
  • Joel Garowitz, a staff attorney for the NEA,
  • estimated that such an appeal could
  • cost as much as twenty five thousand dollars If the NEA
  • does step out, the possibility exists that the American Civil
  • Liberties Union will take up the case.
  • BOB CRYSTAL: In Dublin, Ireland, an Irish legislator
  • and a Catholic priest have joined
  • in calling for changes in Irish laws, which would decriminalize
  • homosexual practices between consenting adults in private.
  • Senator Noël Browne and Father (unintelligible) broached
  • their proposal at the conclusion of a gay symposium at Trinity
  • College, a Catholic institution in Dublin.
  • Senator Browne estimated that Dublin alone
  • might be home to more than eight thousand homosexuals
  • and deplored the current practice of sending homosexuals
  • to prison.
  • "It not only is an offense to personal liberties," he said,
  • "but hypocritical in the extreme.
  • Sending a homosexual to prison is precisely
  • the equivalent of confining an alcoholic to a brewery.
  • In prison there are only two kinds of sex
  • available, auto-erotic and homosexual."
  • Speaking against the legal sanctions which
  • confront homosexuals, Father (unintelligible)
  • said, "One should be free to be homosexual as
  • to be heterosexual without being persecuted
  • for a characteristic which is not,
  • apparently, a matter of choice.
  • But within and without the church a greater understanding
  • of homosexuality is needed."
  • (unintelligible) continued, "We shall
  • be attempting to change social attitudes
  • and legal provisions insofar as they
  • are oppressive or punitive to this under-privileged
  • and deprived group."
  • The symposium was sponsored by the Sexual Liberation
  • Movement of Dublin and included speakers
  • from both England and Ireland.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: A new defamation law,
  • which has been proposed to the Delaware state senate,
  • would make it a misdemeanor to publicly call someone
  • a "queer," "dyke," "faggot," or other terms
  • insulting to a person's sexual preference.
  • The provision is part of a general public defamation
  • measure introduced to the 127th General Assembly
  • by Senator Herman Holloway, Democrat of Wilmington.
  • The proposed law would also outlaw epithets
  • against persons directed at their race, age,
  • marital status, creed, color, sex, ancestry,
  • national origin, or employment.
  • Although the bill does not itemize prescribed language,
  • it might conceivably be construed to
  • prohibit such phrases as "old man,"
  • "dizzy dame," "broad," "bitch," "old maid," "Polak," "dago,"
  • "chink," "slant eyes," "greaser," and others.
  • "A person is guilty of public defamation," the bill says,
  • "when he utters in any public place
  • an obscenity, insult, demeaning, or defaming words
  • towards another person or group of persons
  • when those words are directed at the aforementioned
  • characteristics."
  • The defamation measure is one of the three bill
  • package sponsored by Holloway.
  • The other bills amend existing portions of the Delaware code
  • to extend anti-bias protection in employment, housing,
  • and public accommodations without regard
  • for sexual preference.
  • All three measures were referred to the judiciary and elections
  • committee.
  • No date has been set for the hearings.
  • BOB CRYSTAL: A reform bill which would
  • have removed criminal penalties for homosexual behavior
  • in Israel has failed to get by the Israeli parliament.
  • The bill was introduced last year
  • by Uri Avnery, who said he based his feeling that the time was
  • right for such legislation on a 1971 public opinion poll.
  • The survey indicated that 45.54 percent of the sample
  • thought that homosexuals should no longer be
  • subject to penalties.
  • Only 39 percent thought penalties
  • should remain in effect, with 15.5 percent undecided.
  • Apparently, when it came time to cast a vote,
  • those in the parliament who were undecided
  • voted against the decriminalization bill.
  • Gay organizations in Israel have difficulty
  • getting any publicity and have had little luck
  • in lobbying members of parliament.
  • A Dutch organization, the COC, said
  • that it is responding to direct appeals
  • from Israeli gays for outside assistance
  • by planning a letter writing campaign to the hundred twenty
  • members of Israel's parliament.
  • Gays in Israel estimate that the country's gay population
  • is about one hundred fifty thousand.
  • Advocate 135.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: And that's the news for Green Thursday.
  • Coming up next, Mike Cooper, "Theme in C."
  • (music plays)
  • BRUCE JEWELL: That was Mike Cooper.
  • This interview that we're going to hear this evening
  • is the first part of a series of interviews that
  • will be heard on this program.
  • The people in the interview are not gay.
  • The relationships that are being discussed
  • are not gay relationships.
  • These interviews were, I think, of particular interest
  • not because they're homosexual or heterosexual, but rather
  • because of the discussion of roles
  • and the effect of roles, particularly
  • inappropriate roles, upon relationships among people.
  • There are, of course, good roles.
  • No one wants deep interpersonal relationships
  • with the bank teller.
  • You'd never get through the line.
  • But there are also many bad roles.
  • And for people such as homosexuals
  • who are forced into role playing a good deal of the day
  • in order to protect themselves, their role
  • can become a genuine impediment to all kinds of communications.
  • Not only with straight people who the gay person may not
  • wish to have his true sexual identity known, but eventually
  • through learning and through habit
  • the roles can become damaging to relationships
  • between gay people.
  • I think the interview that we are going to hear
  • is particularly interesting in that the young man who
  • is speaking has become aware of the roles he is playing
  • and conscious of the effects on his relationships.
  • These interviews were made not by myself,
  • but were donated or given to me by members of the Tolstoy
  • College at the University of Buffalo.
  • I want to thank them for their generosity.
  • Alright.
  • MIKE: At that time early in my life, or earlier than honestly
  • ten years ago like that, I felt like I
  • had tried to identify with these super violent men.
  • With Hell's Angels, with, you know, Wyatt Earp--
  • not Wyatt Earp--
  • Jesse James, and, you know, the outlaw image, the very
  • masculine men.
  • And up until a little short time ago, maybe a year,
  • maybe in that, I was still, like, really intense into that.
  • Now, the way I feel about it was that I
  • was looking for a man image because I felt that I had none.
  • So I grew up--
  • I was always mommy.
  • I grew up like with all women consistently around me
  • like that, you know?
  • And so this was the most masculine thing there was out,
  • was this real virile, hard guy, fighter, drinker.
  • INTERVIEWER 2: You got this image after your father left?
  • MIKE: No.
  • That was like, well, I grew up-- my early years
  • until I was like four years old on I
  • lived, me, my mother, it was my grandmother and my grandfather.
  • And my aunt and my cousin, both female, man, and my cousin's
  • a girl too.
  • I was consistently surrounded with women in the house
  • at all times like that, you know?
  • My grandfather was older like that
  • and he was a rummy at that time.
  • He drank a lot like that.
  • So, what I figured is what happened
  • myself was that when I started coming to realize these things
  • I was looking for, like, a man image or a father image
  • or something like that to copy.
  • This is what I went for, was the most outspoken, violent thing
  • that I could get a hold of at that time.
  • And in the late sixties and middle sixties
  • the Hell's Angels were in full swing,
  • everybody was denim, leather, swastika.
  • At least, that's the way I saw it, you know?
  • And that's what I went after.
  • And I could never reach that point.
  • It's really so bizarre.
  • I had all the trappings.
  • I had this Iron Cross around my neck
  • and I had the cut-off denim and I had the gang's name
  • on the back, Rogue's Incorporated, Lovejoy
  • in Buffalo, New York.
  • And it was a big suit.
  • I used to love wearing that, man.
  • Just the way people would look at me.
  • Oh, look, there goes a man.
  • (Mike laughs)
  • And it was really true.
  • That's the way it really was, you know?
  • Because like, I could like go in any place
  • and I knew what was going on inside me
  • and I wasn't what was portrayed.
  • And yet, I could go in a place like that
  • and I could give off enough show that people wouldn't bother.
  • It was a mutual agreement that other rough guys do not
  • hassle this rough guy too.
  • It was mutually like that.
  • Don't mess with that guy, you know?
  • And I was never-- these people started picking up this.
  • Other people started seeing me as that mask.
  • It was so bizarre like that, you know.
  • And then like a legend grew up, you know.
  • I don't remember, I was in a fight in I think seventh grade
  • and I wasn't in another fight for maybe four years like that.
  • But here I was, big, running around like that.
  • A lot of strange people would say like outside,
  • they didn't know me like that, they would really think that I
  • was really a hard, nasty thing.
  • You know, here's these guys, street corner guys.
  • And I was never really that.
  • I tried, after I got out of high school, I tried--
  • it even got more intense for some reason.
  • I really went nuts.
  • I didn't wear shoes for a year.
  • I wore consistent cowboy boots for like eighteen months.
  • I didn't even own a pair of shoes.
  • It was always boots, boots, boots.
  • You know?
  • It was always black denim pants, always black t-shirt,
  • had the big trucker's wallet hanging out
  • with the chain on it, the belt, and I
  • used to wear the skull, the cat skull all the time.
  • It was just a big joke.
  • What happened, I think, is I started to believe the image.
  • And that's where I really got into trouble
  • because I couldn't keep up with what I thought I was,
  • or what I wanted to be, or identify with.
  • And that was a big hassle.
  • INTERVIEWER 2: What was it, again, that you definitely
  • wanted to identify with?
  • MIKE: I wanted to identify, I think,
  • with a masculine image of what a man is.
  • I felt like--
  • INTERVIEWER 2: Did you try like in all ways?
  • MIKE: No, I don't think so.
  • I don't know where I am now.
  • INTERVIEWER 2: OK.
  • You're talking about being really masculine.
  • So did that also go into, like-- what was your relationships
  • in high school?
  • I mean, besides like with the guys?
  • Did the other image go into relationships with women
  • that you met?
  • MIKE: Yeah, they did.
  • And they always consistently found me out too.
  • INTERVIEWER 2: Well, why don't you explain what happened?
  • MIKE: Like how could the immortal, masculine, mucho
  • macho man, how could he lower himself to love a woman?
  • Because women were always sex objects in our group.
  • There were nothing else.
  • They had no minds, nothing.
  • It was always like, broads.
  • It was never women or girls, or anything, it was always broads.
  • It's really hard if you're trying
  • to portray something you're not, how
  • are you going to portray it that way.
  • I got really messed up all through those hangups
  • like that.
  • I just couldn't come out.
  • I was suppressed in all these ways.
  • These social pressures and pressures from home like that.
  • It really messed-- I can't explain it yet myself.
  • INTERVIEWER 2: Well why don't you give, you know,
  • like a particular example of a relationship
  • and how did the conflict (unintelligible)?
  • I mean, you tried to love a particular woman
  • and it would get involved-- it would get like tangled
  • up because?
  • MIKE: It was because of having to play
  • the role, of having to act like someone I wasn't like that.
  • And I think I chose also people who I would want
  • to have relationships with.
  • I would choose people who would like maybe would supposedly
  • jive with that, and yet didn't.
  • I want to see if I can put that better.
  • (pause) I felt I chose people who I felt
  • were, say, the ideal person for the ultra masculine man.
  • You know?
  • Like the chick with the cut off jacket, right?
  • And it turns out that these people are playing roles too.
  • You got two people playing roles.
  • (laughter)
  • It was really hard for me to carry on a serious--
  • have a serious relationship, a long-term one.
  • I still don't have a long-term relationship
  • because I always hit and run.
  • I can't get over that.
  • I blew so many beautiful, beautiful women
  • with beautiful heads like that, by playing a game.
  • I don't know.
  • There's a lot of pressure too from like--
  • I don't want to put too much pressure on my--
  • from home like that, but I think that's got a lot to do with it.
  • I really do.
  • Like I was telling Paul before, it
  • was a total matriarchal society there in my house.
  • Grandma was boss.
  • Mama listened to Grandma and Grandpa had nothing to say.
  • And there was Mikey.
  • And Auntie came over with little girl cousin and there it is.
  • You know?
  • (unintelligible) I think I thought
  • that I was being feminized like that,
  • so I took hold of the most masculine thing I could find.
  • INTERVIEWER 1: You had to.
  • MIKE: I had to, right?
  • Or did I have to?
  • I don't know.
  • I don't think so.
  • INTERVIEWER 1: Well, you had to have some identity.
  • MIKE: Yeah.
  • So this is what I tried to identify with and yet
  • it fell through like that.
  • INTERVIEWER 1: It might have been the best thing
  • you could've done at the time.
  • MIKE: Yeah, but I shouldn't have had to go through all those--
  • INTERVIEWER 2: Right.
  • MIKE: Right.
  • You know?
  • I blew so many things.
  • So many good things.
  • I could have really enjoy myself doing by, you know,
  • hanging out and putting on the big show.
  • What else do you want me to get into?
  • INTERVIEWER 2: How do you feel about yourself now?
  • I mean, do you think that you play any games now?
  • MIKE: Yeah, in a way I'm still caught up in that--
  • not as much as before and I recognize it now
  • and I kick it down--
  • of trying to identify with other people and doing what
  • other people will do in order to like get their acceptance.
  • You know?
  • I find myself still doing that on certain occasions like that.
  • But I don't think it's--
  • it's not as intense as it was at one time.
  • Like I couldn't go any place just myself,
  • I always went like the other person with the--
  • like I was saying before the tape,
  • I had all these social pressures on me.
  • INTERVIEWER 2: Why don't you explain that about the gang?
  • About the fights?
  • How you got dumped?
  • MIKE: I was talking before about when
  • I was playing my role as hard guy
  • like that, the guys I hang around
  • with, I don't know if they were playing the role too.
  • I got a feeling that they probably were to some extent,
  • too, but I don't know if they were--
  • they had such intensity about it or not.
  • They would like, I can remember, for instance,
  • Carl and Artie coming to my house, "Come on out.
  • There's a fight down at Walden and Bailey tonight, alright?"
  • I go, "Yeah.
  • Jeeze I don't know."
  • And I had all these things in my head, I don't want to go fight,
  • I might get beat up.
  • (laughter)
  • I might lose, we might lose.
  • You know, that would be terrible if we lost, right?
  • Then I said, if I don't go, who am I going to hang out with?
  • Because there was nobody else.
  • All my friends were in the same vein, we were in the same boat.
  • So, like, I was under that pressure of having no friends
  • or being called a cop out or chicken or pigeon or weasel.
  • Weasel was our word then, I think.
  • If you're a weasel, what good are you?
  • Where could you go, right?
  • There was no one else for me to hang out
  • with because all my friends were in the same boat like that.
  • You know?
  • All the guys I was hanging around with at that time.
  • INTERVIEWER 1: So you always went?
  • MIKE: So I went.
  • Right?
  • This is exact for instance I can remember like that, you know?
  • I can remember walking down Walden with Carl and Artie,
  • you know, going down there, you know,
  • giving ourselves the boost, the talk.
  • I can remember the things running through my head,
  • like which is the best way for me to escape?
  • How could I get out of this?
  • I've got to go to school, they've got to leave,
  • they've got to go to school too.
  • Look at all that garbage.
  • Forget about the homework.
  • I just couldn't get out of it, so I was there going with them.
  • Then we used to meet at Deco on Walden and Bailey
  • and everybody's all over there with the jackets
  • and everybody's getting geared for the fight,
  • like we were fighting Genesse that night.
  • Lost Souls and Genesee.
  • So it's like fifty guys from Walden, they're all there.
  • So I was nervous.
  • I was really nervous like that.
  • And it was like, if I had left--
  • well at that time I wasn't hanging around with Walden,
  • we were hanging around in Lovejoy, the gang in Lovejoy.
  • And Artie was a real high member.
  • He was, like, vice president, I think, at that time of the gang
  • in Lovejoy.
  • This was our little part of Lovejoy helping Walden out
  • in case we needed help some other time.
  • It was a lie because nobody ever helps you out.
  • (laughter)
  • I can remember going out in Deco and meeting behind,
  • it was in Victor's store.
  • And we were all standing around.
  • All the other guys are running around getting ready and hiding
  • pipes and chains and things like that.
  • Everybody was grouping and I can remember
  • standing away from the group, with the group,
  • but not in the mass.
  • And then we started walking through the back streets over
  • to Genesse through Walden through Rapin Street and Hazel
  • Street over there.
  • I can remember everybody making noises and everything
  • like that.
  • I remember walking towards the back of the group
  • and there Artie, Carl was up in the front.
  • I didn't even know where the hell he was.
  • I can remember there's this one guy walking next to me.
  • It was his first time out, his name was Lonnie.
  • I remember his name and everything,
  • this is like I'm still in high school,
  • like, I was seventeen or sixteen years old like that.
  • I can remember walking over there
  • and I said, yeah, (unintelligible) are fighting.
  • He says, yeah, me too.
  • I live in this neighborhood I got to-- he says to me,
  • I can remember, he says, "I got come to the fight.
  • I live in this neighborhood.
  • There's no place else for me to go."
  • I said, "Yeah, these are all my friends too,
  • I've got to help them out like that."
  • I can remember we were just walking up the--
  • we were walking up (unintelligible) to Genesee
  • and you hear all this noise and stuff.
  • So everybody's just moving up there.
  • By the time we got up to the street there,
  • everybody was coming back across the street.
  • Everybody's running all over the place.
  • We see this one guy, Nature Boy, running off the tracks.
  • I go, "Nature Boy, where are you going?"
  • He goes, "I'm getting my hammer.
  • I'm going to pound a few heads in."
  • And everybody just dispersed and then
  • they all came together, like, in the same spot like that.
  • A couple of guys got beat up on the other side of the street.
  • There were like seven guys against fifty.
  • (laughter)
  • Fortunately we had the fifty guys that time.
  • I remember going up to Artie and I said, "Well, Artie, I
  • came to the fight."
  • I shook his hand and said, "I got to go now."
  • And I just took off because I was
  • really paranoid about being busted, or being
  • arrested for assault or something like that.
  • INTERVIEWER 1: Did you take part in the fight?
  • MIKE: No.
  • It was like over like that.
  • The first two guys who were across the street
  • got to beat everybody up with the chains and everybody
  • just came across like that.
  • I remember saying to Artie, "See, Artie,
  • I came to a fight."
  • You know?
  • I shook his hand and I left and those guys stayed there.
  • And then, what I would do then, this
  • is really terrifying for me inside.
  • So then, the next thing I know I'd
  • be over there, "I was in a gang fight (unintelligible)
  • Lost Souls.
  • I was there.
  • I seen the whole thing.
  • Like I was one of the first guys across the street.
  • You see that guy got smashed in the head with a chain?
  • (laughter).
  • I know the guy who did that, you know?"
  • I'd be playing the role then.
  • Here I didn't want to do it, and once I did it--
  • you know, I didn't even do it, but I
  • was just around the general vicinity not wanting to do it,
  • I'd be bragging about it.
  • You know, I would say, yeah I was at that fight.
  • We wiped out the Lost Souls.
  • Walden, you know--
  • It just went on like that.
  • Then you get those legends built up
  • about what I said at the parties at my house.
  • I mean, Danny used to say like, yeah, we burned it
  • and we had a fire in the summer.
  • Everybody's like, a big fire, wow.
  • And then we start living up to that
  • and it really becomes complicated.
  • And then you become less and less your real self.
  • Then it just perpetuates itself and keeps moving.
  • Then I think I started to believe
  • what everybody's telling me.
  • I felt that I started to almost forget about my real self
  • and become the image.
  • And that's just a little bit before the group started.
  • It's where I started to fall away from that.
  • I started about maybe six or seven months
  • after I started work, which would be about eighteen
  • months ago, is when I started just to break away that.
  • That would put me somewhere, I was almost twenty-one years
  • old at that time.
  • I was twenty-one at that time when I just
  • started to fall away from not living up to this image.
  • Now I feel like I'm really away from living up to other
  • people's--
  • now, I can be more of myself at this moment.
  • Like I could never do this--
  • I could never admit--
  • this is the first time like I had ever admitted to anybody
  • that I never wanted to go to those fights
  • and be in those gangs like that.
  • It was cool to say, I'm in the gang.
  • But when it came down to defending the neighbors
  • like that I would crumble.
  • I fall apart like that.
  • Like I said, that guy, Lonnie, who was walking next
  • to me, same thing, man.
  • He was as scared as I was, but he was there
  • for the same reason.
  • What can we do?
  • You got to go.
  • But you really don't have to.
  • (laughter)
  • That's the amazing thing.
  • I think a lot of fear of it was--
  • I can just see, Mrs. (unintelligible)
  • this is your son Michael.
  • We just brought him home.
  • He was in a fight somewhere.
  • Oh, my boy.
  • What's he been doing?
  • That's a lot of pressure like that from Mom and home.
  • It is.
  • That's why I think I started off on those things like that.
  • I feel at this point that I'm blaming too many things
  • on my early home life.
  • I don't know if it's true or--
  • INTERVIEWER 1: Yeah, but when you're
  • young that's most of the influence you
  • have is from your parents and your family.
  • It has to shape you a real lot, no matter who you are.
  • MIKE: I'm trying not to believe that.
  • I'm trying to think that I did a lot of reading it
  • and read it wrong.
  • I think that's a lot of what happened there.
  • INTERVIEWER 2: What happened when you started work?
  • When you got into work, how did work change you?
  • This idea of being in work you couldn't keep up the image?
  • MIKE: No.
  • See, what was happening was I was getting older.
  • I was becoming really frustrated with the image.
  • When I would go out I couldn't have a good time because I
  • had the things and saying, you know, I was just doing nothing.
  • I had no money, hardly.
  • I had money, but I didn't have enough money
  • to do a lot of things or things I could have done if I had been
  • working or something like that.
  • So it really got frustrating.
  • And when I got a job it started to ease off
  • the frustration like that because I was there
  • and I was doing something and it just started to ease off.
  • It seemed like it was like a tap into the frustration,
  • the pressure.
  • I just started to ease then.
  • Then I went back to school that fall, night school,
  • and I was working like that.
  • That was just, like, last fall.
  • And that was even more and I got--
  • when I was in school before it was to take up space and that
  • was it.
  • I was there.
  • I just did enough work to get the seat and that's it.
  • Now I just sit around and I get good marks,
  • I pull good grades just by--
  • I don't even have to study.
  • It's not like being forced, it's because I want it now.
  • And before, I went to college first
  • because I didn't know what to do.
  • Everybody in their senior year in high school,
  • September everybody's writing applications out,
  • sending them out all over the place.
  • You know, it was April.
  • (laughter)
  • I think it's about time I do something, you know?
  • So I did.
  • I got accepted out there at Erie.
  • So I went there for two years and all
  • I did there was get drunk and pass.
  • INTERVIEWER 1: Were you still into the image there?
  • MIKE: Yeah.
  • That's were it got intense.
  • That's where it really got out of hand.
  • That's where the outer dress really, really blossomed.
  • Always in black.
  • Always in the cowboy boots with the chain, the skull.
  • That's where it really got intense there.
  • And at that time, after my first year of college,
  • that's when the outer signs of my body
  • started to show the effects from drinking too much,
  • and eating, and just continual partying like that.
  • That's when I started putting on weight, got a huge beer gut.
  • INTERVIEWER 1: It's hard to picture you like that,
  • with the black and the skull.
  • MIKE: I can show you pictures if you want to see them.
  • (laughter)
  • They're funny to look at.
  • INTERVIEWER 2: I remember.
  • Yeah, I remember at (unintelligible)
  • Plaza and everything.
  • MIKE: Yeah.
  • And it was like--
  • INTERVIEWER 1: How long have you guys known each other?
  • MIKE: Fifth grade.
  • INTERVIEWER 2: Yeah, fifth grade.
  • MIKE: Long time.
  • Lost track of each other for quite a few years.
  • INTERVIEWER 2: We come back every once in awhile.
  • MIKE: Came back once in awhile for a reunion.
  • That's where it got intense.
  • It was totally every day.
  • I never wore-- like I was telling Paul
  • before, I never wore shoes, it was always boots.
  • I never had-- at that time bells were starting to come in.
  • That was like, I can't do that.
  • It's always black denim jeans right over the boots,
  • no belt on them.
  • Just cover the boots right up like that.
  • That's what it was.
  • You know?
  • That's supposed to be a stimulating environment there
  • or something like that.
  • INTERVIEWER 2: There wasn't any gangs there.
  • You were just mostly by yourself there, right?
  • Putting on the image?
  • MIKE: Yeah.
  • Maybe I had to intensify it.
  • Intensify the image more.
  • I can't figure that out.
  • Why would I do that?
  • I don't know.
  • But it just got intense then.
  • And then like I said, at that time
  • I was really capable of putting away great quantities
  • of alcohol at that time.
  • On occasions I'd have blackouts, minor blackouts like that.
  • When you drink a lot, you get a blackout.
  • Where you still move, but you don't know what's happening.
  • And people tell you these things.
  • I started to get these things, you know?
  • I got a few times.
  • One time I went after Jimmy Loose
  • one night with a hot dog fork.
  • (laughter)
  • I threatened his life.
  • I was really abusing my body to no end.
  • I guess it was just more frustration there.
  • More trying to live up to the image.
  • I was really going nuts inside.
  • I was really neurotic at that time.
  • I couldn't carry on a relationship with a girl
  • more than one night.
  • That was it for me.
  • Hi, how are you?
  • Like, I couldn't even--
  • I didn't even want to have sex with anybody, you know?
  • I just wanted to be drunk all the time.
  • I couldn't function socially without drinking.
  • Like I was telling Paul, I would get to the point like
  • I would go out, in order to break down
  • inhibition I would get drunk, and then
  • when I was drunk enough that I could--
  • the inhibitions were gone, I was too
  • drunk to do what I had broken down the inhibitions to do.
  • And I really got vicious.
  • And I couldn't remember.
  • Everybody would be sitting around having one or two beers,
  • I'd be--
  • and I'd really get drunk.
  • I was getting drunk five days a week.
  • And not just high drunk, but drunk where I was sick.
  • I remember every night I used to come home and go
  • behind the garage and puke.
  • That's like day to day.
  • And then I started when I would get drunk I wouldn't get tired,
  • it would speed me up.
  • I'd be walking around and I'd fall off things and fall over
  • and I had big, huge bruises on my arms and my legs
  • from falling all the time like that.
  • I was continuously drunk, you know?
  • It was really sickening.
  • Thing was, that after a while I wasn't having a good time,
  • even in my own head doing that.
  • Even when I got drunk, the inhibitions were still there.
  • I still had the pressure, the social pressure
  • of not doing anything, but just laying
  • around being a drunk like that and it really
  • got super frustrating.
  • INTERVIEWER 2: What were the inhibitions
  • that you wanted to break down?
  • You said that you got so drunk that you couldn't do the things
  • that you wanted to break down?
  • What were those things that couldn't--
  • MIKE: First, let's see, one major thing
  • is, well, I can remember my mother always putting ladies up
  • on a pedestal for me.
  • Women are something ultra-special.
  • They're not people, they're above you, above men,
  • "fe-males."
  • There was always Grandpa around who supposedly never took
  • care of the family very good, so she's
  • got this man image from him.
  • And my father wasn't with us, you know?
  • Like I said, it was super feminine like that,
  • so I was getting pressured.
  • I can remember arguing with her saying,
  • "I didn't mean it that way."
  • She says, "What?"
  • Then she'd embarrass me in front of relatives and friends
  • who come to the house like that, you know, her friends,
  • my family.
  • Seeing my relatives like that.
  • I remember her saying, "He hates women!
  • He hates women!
  • Look what he said!
  • Look what he said!"
  • I said, "I didn't mean it like that."
  • She says, "Oh, yeah, yeah."
  • And you know, I was driven away.
  • And the whole thing like that, the whole thing
  • of women being so idealistic is so unapproachable, right?
  • And that's one thing that always on a social level,
  • say out at Binky Brown's something like that,
  • is really hard for me now just to imagine
  • that those people are just people and not
  • off by themselves.
  • And it's really hard for me to break down things like that.
  • Who I am, I have to know ahead of time.
  • I have to talk a few times.
  • I can't just go up and say, hi, in a place
  • like that because it's still too bizarre for me.
  • When I'm sober it's even harder then.
  • I couldn't do it at all.
  • I couldn't go in a strange place and say, "I like that chick,
  • I think I'll go over there and start a conversation with her."
  • INTERVIEWER 2: Yeah, but then that's a pressure of the idea
  • that hardly anybody goes through the same things about going
  • into a bar.
  • And the bars aren't really set up for people
  • to meet each other, in a way.
  • I mean, it's pretty loud music and it's pretty hard
  • to go over and say hello and really get to know a person.
  • MIKE: No.
  • Yeah, I know.
  • INTERVIEWER 2: It's sort of a joke, the idea of setting up
  • a bar on that aspect, you know?
  • MIKE: The first thing I do, I wouldn't even
  • look at any anybody in there.
  • The first place I'd head to when I went any place
  • was just to the bar.
  • I'd just sit there and pour four or five or six
  • drinks down there and then I could get up
  • to take a walk around even to look what was there.
  • It's really been difficult because then
  • I also had that extra thing of trying
  • to live that image of being wild and a hard guy
  • and tough and crazy, acting bizarrely in order to attract,
  • I don't know, attention, maybe?
  • I think that was a part of it too.
  • Attract a lot of attention like that.
  • And like how could I be serious then right?
  • And say, "Hi, how are?
  • Look at that one, warthog!"
  • You know?
  • And that's what it was.
  • And then I just keep getting more and more frustration
  • and getting drunker and drunker.
  • And if I wanted to, I was too drunk.
  • I was slobbering around, throwing up.
  • I really can't-- I don't think I can really express to anybody
  • the amount I used to drink.
  • The great quantities and how sick I used to get every night.
  • It's like, my days would go, I would get up
  • and I wasn't in school, it was like summer.
  • Between my first year of college and second.
  • I didn't want to work.
  • I could've worked if I wanted to, I didn't want to.
  • (music playing)
  • (laughter)
  • (music playing)
  • BRUCE JEWELL: That is the beginning
  • of a series on one man's experience
  • with unsatisfactory roles and images.
  • Next week Mike deals with his alter image, Anubis,
  • god of death.
  • BOB CRYSTAL: The Gay Revolution of Women
  • is taking calls for the gay youth group.
  • Anyone who is interested in the gay youth group,
  • this is a group of people who are eighteen years old
  • or younger and the membership in that group is limited
  • to that age group, should call the GROW for information
  • at 244-9030 or call and ask for Tony between one and three
  • on Sunday.
  • Gay couples can ask for relationship counseling
  • by appointment with Mrs. Helen Dike
  • at 232-1840 Tuesday mornings for an appointment later
  • in the week.
  • She is a member of the Family Services of Rochester.
  • And the Syracuse Gay Freedom League
  • is sponsoring the twenty-sixth through the twenty-eighth
  • of April meeting of the New York State Coalition
  • of Gay Organizations.
  • Registration is Friday, twenty-sixth
  • of April at the GFL office, 103 College Place, Syracuse, 13210.
  • That's 103 College Place, Syracuse, 13210.
  • Registration continues on Saturday morning
  • with the opening session from eleven to twelve.
  • Afternoon workshops include women's, men's, and youth
  • caucuses, gay professionals, gays and children,
  • legislative tactics, and a gay youth consciousness
  • raising group.
  • A spaghetti dinner will proceed a guest speaker.
  • A dance will be held at a university-owned student
  • recreation facility.
  • The Sunday general session will run from eleven to six.
  • For information about attending the conference, call 315--
  • area code 315-423-3599 or contact
  • the GAGV to arrange to share rides to the conference.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Thank you, Bob.
  • This has been Green Thursday for April eighteenth.
  • And I'm Bruce Jewell and I'll be back with Bob Crystal two weeks
  • from now.
  • Coming up next is Ervin T. Rouse, "Orange Blossom
  • Special."
  • (music playing)