Green Thursday, radio program, April 18, 1974
- (music plays)
- BRUCE JEWELL: OK.
- That was Steve Grossman, "Can't Papa Blues."
- And this is Green Thursday for April 18, 1974
- and I'm Bruce Jewell.
- And I've got with me this evening, again, Bob Crystal.
- And how are you this evening?
- BOB CRYSTAL: Oh, I'm OK.
- I'd like to tell people out there
- that Patti Evans just got back from Albany tonight.
- And she said that-- she went there to deliver the petitions
- that people had been signing all over Rochester
- and all over New York state.
- And she said that--
- BRUCE JEWELL: Which petitions?
- BOB CRYSTAL: The petitions to repeal the sodomy statutes.
- There's a bill in committee to repeal the consensual sodomy
- part of the sodomy statutes of New York state.
- And she said that it looks as though there needs
- to be a fire lit under the people in the committee
- and that the people of Rochester,
- if they want the laws to come out of committee this session,
- that something has to be done.
- More than just the petitions.
- BRUCE JEWELL: Well, I'm going to try.
- Just keep trying, I guess.
- BOB CRYSTAL: Little by little bit the bird will whittle away
- the mountain.
- BRUCE JEWELL: OK.
- I see there was a reply in the newspaper two Sundays ago,
- I guess it was, by Mike Royko.
- Sure enough, there were a great many people
- who objected to his editorial on the mandate liberation
- movement.
- And he was moved to write another column
- primarily concerning itself with the people who objected
- to his previous column.
- And I'd like to read part of that column
- and make a few comments on it.
- He said, "Chicago's gay community, as well as
- many liberals, say they are furious with me.
- They have bombarded me with letters and phone calls
- and have picketed the building I work in
- to receive an apology for the column I wrote.
- Among the words they have used to describe
- the column are atrocious, tragic, inhuman,
- nauseating, etc.
- The column raised the question of whether marriage
- between men and monkeys should be condoned in our society.
- The gay movement correctly deduced
- that it was a satiric comment on the growing
- demand by homosexuals that society accept
- their relationships as normal and that they be permitted
- to marry and adopt children.
- They also correctly gathered that I
- don't think homosexuality is normal
- or that they should be permitted to marry and adopt children.
- But they are incorrect when they say I am
- in favor of persecuting them.
- As far as I'm concerned, what any two adults, or more
- if they wish, choose to do is their business, not mine."
- Now, looking over this comment--
- well, it goes on.
- "However, when they talk about society's laws being changed,
- then it is no longer just their business,
- it is the business of the rest of society too."
- OK.
- I'll agree to that.
- Certainly changes of laws are the business
- of society as a whole.
- However, to say on one hand that he does not
- favor persecuting homosexuals and then on the other hand
- to say that he does not approve of changing laws, which
- do persecute homosexuals, is simply hypocrisy.
- One cannot really on one hand say, well,
- I don't want to persecute you, but I don't want to change
- the laws that arrest you and harass you,
- and so on, and so on, and so forth.
- Clearly he is not, in fact, in favor of allowing homosexuals
- to live as they wish.
- Moreover, the whole marriage and child adoption problem
- is not examined by him.
- I doubt that he knows very much about it.
- In many instances, it's not so much
- a matter of adopting children for lesbian women,
- it's a matter of being able to keep the children that they've
- already had.
- He then continues to say that a number
- of, by his own description, "knee jerk liberals"
- came into his office and/or called him
- on the phone objecting to the column.
- He said, "'Well, why shouldn't they be permitted to marry?'
- This particular liberal said."
- Mr. Royko replied, "I answered them by throwing a curve
- and asking, 'How about legalizing sexual relationships
- between mother and son, father and daughter, et cetera,
- et cetera?'
- The friend looked horrified and gasped, 'Why, that's incest.'
- 'So what?' I said.
- 'That's disgusting,' was the answer."
- Well, Mr. Royko has indeed thrown a curve here.
- He's proceeded to compare the gay liberation movement,
- with all its many complexities and many different aspects,
- to a movement that simply doesn't exist.
- There's no such thing as incest liberation
- nor, I think, is there likely to be.
- He has, again, avoided coming to terms
- with real situations, which seems
- to be his particular talent when it
- comes to this particular issue.
- Moreover, he's made it perfectly clear
- that what he is saying is simply, I don't like you.
- While there's nothing wrong with saying, I don't like you,
- there is something rather wrong about being
- hypocritical about it and about being denigrating to the people
- that you do not like.
- There is a lesson, by the way, in looking this over.
- One shouldn't debate other people's metaphors
- unless you want to play Don Quixote to other people's
- windmills.
- Stick to issues.
- Mr. Royko could never--
- simply could not get away with this type of thing
- with people who were willing to stick to the issues
- because he's incapable of handling them.
- Let's see.
- Coming up on the twenty first of April
- is the GAGV meeting, which will be
- held at the GAGV Center, which is in the Genesee co-op
- building at 713 Monroe Ave. It's held every Sunday at seven
- thirty.
- The meeting this coming Sunday is
- law enforcement and homosexuals, the policeman's view.
- This is the first time, I believe,
- that the GAGV has had a policeman to speak at a meeting
- and I certainly hope it should be very interesting to hear
- the exchange and I hope it brings
- about some understanding on both sides of that particular issue,
- which is so very touchy.
- OK, let's have a little bit more music here.
- Next it's Caravan, "Love to Love You."
- (music plays)
- BRUCE JEWELL: This is the news for Green Thursday.
- Though it seems paradoxical, other gay teachers
- may benefit from the appeals court ruling recently handed
- down in Richmond, Virginia, which
- denied Joseph (unintelligible) for a reinstatement
- to his junior high school classroom.
- The Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals
- let stand a lower court finding that homosexuality by itself
- is no bar to the teaching profession
- and took the further step of reversing that lower court's
- gag provision, which indicated gay teachers must
- keep their sexual orientation out of the public eye
- or risk providing their employers with legal grounds
- for firing them.
- Should similar cases arise in other parts of the country,
- the record in the (unintelligible) case
- may serve as a solid precedent in securing rights
- of homosexuals to enter the teaching profession
- and remain on their jobs, even though openly gay,
- if that is their choice.
- Despite those major liberal interpretations,
- the court said (unintelligible) was not
- entitled to recover the job he lost because he failed
- to list a college gay organization in his application
- under outside interests, a point which was not even
- an issue in the earlier proceedings.
- (unintelligible), who is now looking for work,
- was transferred from a teaching position
- to an administrative job in the Rockville, Maryland school
- system when it became known he was gay.
- And his first contract with the system
- was not renewed last year.
- The National Education Association,
- which supported (unintelligible) legal battle thus far,
- will decide by the end of March whether to continue its backing
- through a Supreme Court appeal.
- Joel Garowitz, a staff attorney for the NEA,
- estimated that such an appeal could
- cost as much as twenty five thousand dollars If the NEA
- does step out, the possibility exists that the American Civil
- Liberties Union will take up the case.
- BOB CRYSTAL: In Dublin, Ireland, an Irish legislator
- and a Catholic priest have joined
- in calling for changes in Irish laws, which would decriminalize
- homosexual practices between consenting adults in private.
- Senator Noël Browne and Father (unintelligible) broached
- their proposal at the conclusion of a gay symposium at Trinity
- College, a Catholic institution in Dublin.
- Senator Browne estimated that Dublin alone
- might be home to more than eight thousand homosexuals
- and deplored the current practice of sending homosexuals
- to prison.
- "It not only is an offense to personal liberties," he said,
- "but hypocritical in the extreme.
- Sending a homosexual to prison is precisely
- the equivalent of confining an alcoholic to a brewery.
- In prison there are only two kinds of sex
- available, auto-erotic and homosexual."
- Speaking against the legal sanctions which
- confront homosexuals, Father (unintelligible)
- said, "One should be free to be homosexual as
- to be heterosexual without being persecuted
- for a characteristic which is not,
- apparently, a matter of choice.
- But within and without the church a greater understanding
- of homosexuality is needed."
- (unintelligible) continued, "We shall
- be attempting to change social attitudes
- and legal provisions insofar as they
- are oppressive or punitive to this under-privileged
- and deprived group."
- The symposium was sponsored by the Sexual Liberation
- Movement of Dublin and included speakers
- from both England and Ireland.
- BRUCE JEWELL: A new defamation law,
- which has been proposed to the Delaware state senate,
- would make it a misdemeanor to publicly call someone
- a "queer," "dyke," "faggot," or other terms
- insulting to a person's sexual preference.
- The provision is part of a general public defamation
- measure introduced to the 127th General Assembly
- by Senator Herman Holloway, Democrat of Wilmington.
- The proposed law would also outlaw epithets
- against persons directed at their race, age,
- marital status, creed, color, sex, ancestry,
- national origin, or employment.
- Although the bill does not itemize prescribed language,
- it might conceivably be construed to
- prohibit such phrases as "old man,"
- "dizzy dame," "broad," "bitch," "old maid," "Polak," "dago,"
- "chink," "slant eyes," "greaser," and others.
- "A person is guilty of public defamation," the bill says,
- "when he utters in any public place
- an obscenity, insult, demeaning, or defaming words
- towards another person or group of persons
- when those words are directed at the aforementioned
- characteristics."
- The defamation measure is one of the three bill
- package sponsored by Holloway.
- The other bills amend existing portions of the Delaware code
- to extend anti-bias protection in employment, housing,
- and public accommodations without regard
- for sexual preference.
- All three measures were referred to the judiciary and elections
- committee.
- No date has been set for the hearings.
- BOB CRYSTAL: A reform bill which would
- have removed criminal penalties for homosexual behavior
- in Israel has failed to get by the Israeli parliament.
- The bill was introduced last year
- by Uri Avnery, who said he based his feeling that the time was
- right for such legislation on a 1971 public opinion poll.
- The survey indicated that 45.54 percent of the sample
- thought that homosexuals should no longer be
- subject to penalties.
- Only 39 percent thought penalties
- should remain in effect, with 15.5 percent undecided.
- Apparently, when it came time to cast a vote,
- those in the parliament who were undecided
- voted against the decriminalization bill.
- Gay organizations in Israel have difficulty
- getting any publicity and have had little luck
- in lobbying members of parliament.
- A Dutch organization, the COC, said
- that it is responding to direct appeals
- from Israeli gays for outside assistance
- by planning a letter writing campaign to the hundred twenty
- members of Israel's parliament.
- Gays in Israel estimate that the country's gay population
- is about one hundred fifty thousand.
- Advocate 135.
- BRUCE JEWELL: And that's the news for Green Thursday.
- Coming up next, Mike Cooper, "Theme in C."
- (music plays)
- BRUCE JEWELL: That was Mike Cooper.
- This interview that we're going to hear this evening
- is the first part of a series of interviews that
- will be heard on this program.
- The people in the interview are not gay.
- The relationships that are being discussed
- are not gay relationships.
- These interviews were, I think, of particular interest
- not because they're homosexual or heterosexual, but rather
- because of the discussion of roles
- and the effect of roles, particularly
- inappropriate roles, upon relationships among people.
- There are, of course, good roles.
- No one wants deep interpersonal relationships
- with the bank teller.
- You'd never get through the line.
- But there are also many bad roles.
- And for people such as homosexuals
- who are forced into role playing a good deal of the day
- in order to protect themselves, their role
- can become a genuine impediment to all kinds of communications.
- Not only with straight people who the gay person may not
- wish to have his true sexual identity known, but eventually
- through learning and through habit
- the roles can become damaging to relationships
- between gay people.
- I think the interview that we are going to hear
- is particularly interesting in that the young man who
- is speaking has become aware of the roles he is playing
- and conscious of the effects on his relationships.
- These interviews were made not by myself,
- but were donated or given to me by members of the Tolstoy
- College at the University of Buffalo.
- I want to thank them for their generosity.
- Alright.
- MIKE: At that time early in my life, or earlier than honestly
- ten years ago like that, I felt like I
- had tried to identify with these super violent men.
- With Hell's Angels, with, you know, Wyatt Earp--
- not Wyatt Earp--
- Jesse James, and, you know, the outlaw image, the very
- masculine men.
- And up until a little short time ago, maybe a year,
- maybe in that, I was still, like, really intense into that.
- Now, the way I feel about it was that I
- was looking for a man image because I felt that I had none.
- So I grew up--
- I was always mommy.
- I grew up like with all women consistently around me
- like that, you know?
- And so this was the most masculine thing there was out,
- was this real virile, hard guy, fighter, drinker.
- INTERVIEWER 2: You got this image after your father left?
- MIKE: No.
- That was like, well, I grew up-- my early years
- until I was like four years old on I
- lived, me, my mother, it was my grandmother and my grandfather.
- And my aunt and my cousin, both female, man, and my cousin's
- a girl too.
- I was consistently surrounded with women in the house
- at all times like that, you know?
- My grandfather was older like that
- and he was a rummy at that time.
- He drank a lot like that.
- So, what I figured is what happened
- myself was that when I started coming to realize these things
- I was looking for, like, a man image or a father image
- or something like that to copy.
- This is what I went for, was the most outspoken, violent thing
- that I could get a hold of at that time.
- And in the late sixties and middle sixties
- the Hell's Angels were in full swing,
- everybody was denim, leather, swastika.
- At least, that's the way I saw it, you know?
- And that's what I went after.
- And I could never reach that point.
- It's really so bizarre.
- I had all the trappings.
- I had this Iron Cross around my neck
- and I had the cut-off denim and I had the gang's name
- on the back, Rogue's Incorporated, Lovejoy
- in Buffalo, New York.
- And it was a big suit.
- I used to love wearing that, man.
- Just the way people would look at me.
- Oh, look, there goes a man.
- (Mike laughs)
- And it was really true.
- That's the way it really was, you know?
- Because like, I could like go in any place
- and I knew what was going on inside me
- and I wasn't what was portrayed.
- And yet, I could go in a place like that
- and I could give off enough show that people wouldn't bother.
- It was a mutual agreement that other rough guys do not
- hassle this rough guy too.
- It was mutually like that.
- Don't mess with that guy, you know?
- And I was never-- these people started picking up this.
- Other people started seeing me as that mask.
- It was so bizarre like that, you know.
- And then like a legend grew up, you know.
- I don't remember, I was in a fight in I think seventh grade
- and I wasn't in another fight for maybe four years like that.
- But here I was, big, running around like that.
- A lot of strange people would say like outside,
- they didn't know me like that, they would really think that I
- was really a hard, nasty thing.
- You know, here's these guys, street corner guys.
- And I was never really that.
- I tried, after I got out of high school, I tried--
- it even got more intense for some reason.
- I really went nuts.
- I didn't wear shoes for a year.
- I wore consistent cowboy boots for like eighteen months.
- I didn't even own a pair of shoes.
- It was always boots, boots, boots.
- You know?
- It was always black denim pants, always black t-shirt,
- had the big trucker's wallet hanging out
- with the chain on it, the belt, and I
- used to wear the skull, the cat skull all the time.
- It was just a big joke.
- What happened, I think, is I started to believe the image.
- And that's where I really got into trouble
- because I couldn't keep up with what I thought I was,
- or what I wanted to be, or identify with.
- And that was a big hassle.
- INTERVIEWER 2: What was it, again, that you definitely
- wanted to identify with?
- MIKE: I wanted to identify, I think,
- with a masculine image of what a man is.
- I felt like--
- INTERVIEWER 2: Did you try like in all ways?
- MIKE: No, I don't think so.
- I don't know where I am now.
- INTERVIEWER 2: OK.
- You're talking about being really masculine.
- So did that also go into, like-- what was your relationships
- in high school?
- I mean, besides like with the guys?
- Did the other image go into relationships with women
- that you met?
- MIKE: Yeah, they did.
- And they always consistently found me out too.
- INTERVIEWER 2: Well, why don't you explain what happened?
- MIKE: Like how could the immortal, masculine, mucho
- macho man, how could he lower himself to love a woman?
- Because women were always sex objects in our group.
- There were nothing else.
- They had no minds, nothing.
- It was always like, broads.
- It was never women or girls, or anything, it was always broads.
- It's really hard if you're trying
- to portray something you're not, how
- are you going to portray it that way.
- I got really messed up all through those hangups
- like that.
- I just couldn't come out.
- I was suppressed in all these ways.
- These social pressures and pressures from home like that.
- It really messed-- I can't explain it yet myself.
- INTERVIEWER 2: Well why don't you give, you know,
- like a particular example of a relationship
- and how did the conflict (unintelligible)?
- I mean, you tried to love a particular woman
- and it would get involved-- it would get like tangled
- up because?
- MIKE: It was because of having to play
- the role, of having to act like someone I wasn't like that.
- And I think I chose also people who I would want
- to have relationships with.
- I would choose people who would like maybe would supposedly
- jive with that, and yet didn't.
- I want to see if I can put that better.
- (pause) I felt I chose people who I felt
- were, say, the ideal person for the ultra masculine man.
- You know?
- Like the chick with the cut off jacket, right?
- And it turns out that these people are playing roles too.
- You got two people playing roles.
- (laughter)
- It was really hard for me to carry on a serious--
- have a serious relationship, a long-term one.
- I still don't have a long-term relationship
- because I always hit and run.
- I can't get over that.
- I blew so many beautiful, beautiful women
- with beautiful heads like that, by playing a game.
- I don't know.
- There's a lot of pressure too from like--
- I don't want to put too much pressure on my--
- from home like that, but I think that's got a lot to do with it.
- I really do.
- Like I was telling Paul before, it
- was a total matriarchal society there in my house.
- Grandma was boss.
- Mama listened to Grandma and Grandpa had nothing to say.
- And there was Mikey.
- And Auntie came over with little girl cousin and there it is.
- You know?
- (unintelligible) I think I thought
- that I was being feminized like that,
- so I took hold of the most masculine thing I could find.
- INTERVIEWER 1: You had to.
- MIKE: I had to, right?
- Or did I have to?
- I don't know.
- I don't think so.
- INTERVIEWER 1: Well, you had to have some identity.
- MIKE: Yeah.
- So this is what I tried to identify with and yet
- it fell through like that.
- INTERVIEWER 1: It might have been the best thing
- you could've done at the time.
- MIKE: Yeah, but I shouldn't have had to go through all those--
- INTERVIEWER 2: Right.
- MIKE: Right.
- You know?
- I blew so many things.
- So many good things.
- I could have really enjoy myself doing by, you know,
- hanging out and putting on the big show.
- What else do you want me to get into?
- INTERVIEWER 2: How do you feel about yourself now?
- I mean, do you think that you play any games now?
- MIKE: Yeah, in a way I'm still caught up in that--
- not as much as before and I recognize it now
- and I kick it down--
- of trying to identify with other people and doing what
- other people will do in order to like get their acceptance.
- You know?
- I find myself still doing that on certain occasions like that.
- But I don't think it's--
- it's not as intense as it was at one time.
- Like I couldn't go any place just myself,
- I always went like the other person with the--
- like I was saying before the tape,
- I had all these social pressures on me.
- INTERVIEWER 2: Why don't you explain that about the gang?
- About the fights?
- How you got dumped?
- MIKE: I was talking before about when
- I was playing my role as hard guy
- like that, the guys I hang around
- with, I don't know if they were playing the role too.
- I got a feeling that they probably were to some extent,
- too, but I don't know if they were--
- they had such intensity about it or not.
- They would like, I can remember, for instance,
- Carl and Artie coming to my house, "Come on out.
- There's a fight down at Walden and Bailey tonight, alright?"
- I go, "Yeah.
- Jeeze I don't know."
- And I had all these things in my head, I don't want to go fight,
- I might get beat up.
- (laughter)
- I might lose, we might lose.
- You know, that would be terrible if we lost, right?
- Then I said, if I don't go, who am I going to hang out with?
- Because there was nobody else.
- All my friends were in the same vein, we were in the same boat.
- So, like, I was under that pressure of having no friends
- or being called a cop out or chicken or pigeon or weasel.
- Weasel was our word then, I think.
- If you're a weasel, what good are you?
- Where could you go, right?
- There was no one else for me to hang out
- with because all my friends were in the same boat like that.
- You know?
- All the guys I was hanging around with at that time.
- INTERVIEWER 1: So you always went?
- MIKE: So I went.
- Right?
- This is exact for instance I can remember like that, you know?
- I can remember walking down Walden with Carl and Artie,
- you know, going down there, you know,
- giving ourselves the boost, the talk.
- I can remember the things running through my head,
- like which is the best way for me to escape?
- How could I get out of this?
- I've got to go to school, they've got to leave,
- they've got to go to school too.
- Look at all that garbage.
- Forget about the homework.
- I just couldn't get out of it, so I was there going with them.
- Then we used to meet at Deco on Walden and Bailey
- and everybody's all over there with the jackets
- and everybody's getting geared for the fight,
- like we were fighting Genesse that night.
- Lost Souls and Genesee.
- So it's like fifty guys from Walden, they're all there.
- So I was nervous.
- I was really nervous like that.
- And it was like, if I had left--
- well at that time I wasn't hanging around with Walden,
- we were hanging around in Lovejoy, the gang in Lovejoy.
- And Artie was a real high member.
- He was, like, vice president, I think, at that time of the gang
- in Lovejoy.
- This was our little part of Lovejoy helping Walden out
- in case we needed help some other time.
- It was a lie because nobody ever helps you out.
- (laughter)
- I can remember going out in Deco and meeting behind,
- it was in Victor's store.
- And we were all standing around.
- All the other guys are running around getting ready and hiding
- pipes and chains and things like that.
- Everybody was grouping and I can remember
- standing away from the group, with the group,
- but not in the mass.
- And then we started walking through the back streets over
- to Genesse through Walden through Rapin Street and Hazel
- Street over there.
- I can remember everybody making noises and everything
- like that.
- I remember walking towards the back of the group
- and there Artie, Carl was up in the front.
- I didn't even know where the hell he was.
- I can remember there's this one guy walking next to me.
- It was his first time out, his name was Lonnie.
- I remember his name and everything,
- this is like I'm still in high school,
- like, I was seventeen or sixteen years old like that.
- I can remember walking over there
- and I said, yeah, (unintelligible) are fighting.
- He says, yeah, me too.
- I live in this neighborhood I got to-- he says to me,
- I can remember, he says, "I got come to the fight.
- I live in this neighborhood.
- There's no place else for me to go."
- I said, "Yeah, these are all my friends too,
- I've got to help them out like that."
- I can remember we were just walking up the--
- we were walking up (unintelligible) to Genesee
- and you hear all this noise and stuff.
- So everybody's just moving up there.
- By the time we got up to the street there,
- everybody was coming back across the street.
- Everybody's running all over the place.
- We see this one guy, Nature Boy, running off the tracks.
- I go, "Nature Boy, where are you going?"
- He goes, "I'm getting my hammer.
- I'm going to pound a few heads in."
- And everybody just dispersed and then
- they all came together, like, in the same spot like that.
- A couple of guys got beat up on the other side of the street.
- There were like seven guys against fifty.
- (laughter)
- Fortunately we had the fifty guys that time.
- I remember going up to Artie and I said, "Well, Artie, I
- came to the fight."
- I shook his hand and said, "I got to go now."
- And I just took off because I was
- really paranoid about being busted, or being
- arrested for assault or something like that.
- INTERVIEWER 1: Did you take part in the fight?
- MIKE: No.
- It was like over like that.
- The first two guys who were across the street
- got to beat everybody up with the chains and everybody
- just came across like that.
- I remember saying to Artie, "See, Artie,
- I came to a fight."
- You know?
- I shook his hand and I left and those guys stayed there.
- And then, what I would do then, this
- is really terrifying for me inside.
- So then, the next thing I know I'd
- be over there, "I was in a gang fight (unintelligible)
- Lost Souls.
- I was there.
- I seen the whole thing.
- Like I was one of the first guys across the street.
- You see that guy got smashed in the head with a chain?
- (laughter).
- I know the guy who did that, you know?"
- I'd be playing the role then.
- Here I didn't want to do it, and once I did it--
- you know, I didn't even do it, but I
- was just around the general vicinity not wanting to do it,
- I'd be bragging about it.
- You know, I would say, yeah I was at that fight.
- We wiped out the Lost Souls.
- Walden, you know--
- It just went on like that.
- Then you get those legends built up
- about what I said at the parties at my house.
- I mean, Danny used to say like, yeah, we burned it
- and we had a fire in the summer.
- Everybody's like, a big fire, wow.
- And then we start living up to that
- and it really becomes complicated.
- And then you become less and less your real self.
- Then it just perpetuates itself and keeps moving.
- Then I think I started to believe
- what everybody's telling me.
- I felt that I started to almost forget about my real self
- and become the image.
- And that's just a little bit before the group started.
- It's where I started to fall away from that.
- I started about maybe six or seven months
- after I started work, which would be about eighteen
- months ago, is when I started just to break away that.
- That would put me somewhere, I was almost twenty-one years
- old at that time.
- I was twenty-one at that time when I just
- started to fall away from not living up to this image.
- Now I feel like I'm really away from living up to other
- people's--
- now, I can be more of myself at this moment.
- Like I could never do this--
- I could never admit--
- this is the first time like I had ever admitted to anybody
- that I never wanted to go to those fights
- and be in those gangs like that.
- It was cool to say, I'm in the gang.
- But when it came down to defending the neighbors
- like that I would crumble.
- I fall apart like that.
- Like I said, that guy, Lonnie, who was walking next
- to me, same thing, man.
- He was as scared as I was, but he was there
- for the same reason.
- What can we do?
- You got to go.
- But you really don't have to.
- (laughter)
- That's the amazing thing.
- I think a lot of fear of it was--
- I can just see, Mrs. (unintelligible)
- this is your son Michael.
- We just brought him home.
- He was in a fight somewhere.
- Oh, my boy.
- What's he been doing?
- That's a lot of pressure like that from Mom and home.
- It is.
- That's why I think I started off on those things like that.
- I feel at this point that I'm blaming too many things
- on my early home life.
- I don't know if it's true or--
- INTERVIEWER 1: Yeah, but when you're
- young that's most of the influence you
- have is from your parents and your family.
- It has to shape you a real lot, no matter who you are.
- MIKE: I'm trying not to believe that.
- I'm trying to think that I did a lot of reading it
- and read it wrong.
- I think that's a lot of what happened there.
- INTERVIEWER 2: What happened when you started work?
- When you got into work, how did work change you?
- This idea of being in work you couldn't keep up the image?
- MIKE: No.
- See, what was happening was I was getting older.
- I was becoming really frustrated with the image.
- When I would go out I couldn't have a good time because I
- had the things and saying, you know, I was just doing nothing.
- I had no money, hardly.
- I had money, but I didn't have enough money
- to do a lot of things or things I could have done if I had been
- working or something like that.
- So it really got frustrating.
- And when I got a job it started to ease off
- the frustration like that because I was there
- and I was doing something and it just started to ease off.
- It seemed like it was like a tap into the frustration,
- the pressure.
- I just started to ease then.
- Then I went back to school that fall, night school,
- and I was working like that.
- That was just, like, last fall.
- And that was even more and I got--
- when I was in school before it was to take up space and that
- was it.
- I was there.
- I just did enough work to get the seat and that's it.
- Now I just sit around and I get good marks,
- I pull good grades just by--
- I don't even have to study.
- It's not like being forced, it's because I want it now.
- And before, I went to college first
- because I didn't know what to do.
- Everybody in their senior year in high school,
- September everybody's writing applications out,
- sending them out all over the place.
- You know, it was April.
- (laughter)
- I think it's about time I do something, you know?
- So I did.
- I got accepted out there at Erie.
- So I went there for two years and all
- I did there was get drunk and pass.
- INTERVIEWER 1: Were you still into the image there?
- MIKE: Yeah.
- That's were it got intense.
- That's where it really got out of hand.
- That's where the outer dress really, really blossomed.
- Always in black.
- Always in the cowboy boots with the chain, the skull.
- That's where it really got intense there.
- And at that time, after my first year of college,
- that's when the outer signs of my body
- started to show the effects from drinking too much,
- and eating, and just continual partying like that.
- That's when I started putting on weight, got a huge beer gut.
- INTERVIEWER 1: It's hard to picture you like that,
- with the black and the skull.
- MIKE: I can show you pictures if you want to see them.
- (laughter)
- They're funny to look at.
- INTERVIEWER 2: I remember.
- Yeah, I remember at (unintelligible)
- Plaza and everything.
- MIKE: Yeah.
- And it was like--
- INTERVIEWER 1: How long have you guys known each other?
- MIKE: Fifth grade.
- INTERVIEWER 2: Yeah, fifth grade.
- MIKE: Long time.
- Lost track of each other for quite a few years.
- INTERVIEWER 2: We come back every once in awhile.
- MIKE: Came back once in awhile for a reunion.
- That's where it got intense.
- It was totally every day.
- I never wore-- like I was telling Paul
- before, I never wore shoes, it was always boots.
- I never had-- at that time bells were starting to come in.
- That was like, I can't do that.
- It's always black denim jeans right over the boots,
- no belt on them.
- Just cover the boots right up like that.
- That's what it was.
- You know?
- That's supposed to be a stimulating environment there
- or something like that.
- INTERVIEWER 2: There wasn't any gangs there.
- You were just mostly by yourself there, right?
- Putting on the image?
- MIKE: Yeah.
- Maybe I had to intensify it.
- Intensify the image more.
- I can't figure that out.
- Why would I do that?
- I don't know.
- But it just got intense then.
- And then like I said, at that time
- I was really capable of putting away great quantities
- of alcohol at that time.
- On occasions I'd have blackouts, minor blackouts like that.
- When you drink a lot, you get a blackout.
- Where you still move, but you don't know what's happening.
- And people tell you these things.
- I started to get these things, you know?
- I got a few times.
- One time I went after Jimmy Loose
- one night with a hot dog fork.
- (laughter)
- I threatened his life.
- I was really abusing my body to no end.
- I guess it was just more frustration there.
- More trying to live up to the image.
- I was really going nuts inside.
- I was really neurotic at that time.
- I couldn't carry on a relationship with a girl
- more than one night.
- That was it for me.
- Hi, how are you?
- Like, I couldn't even--
- I didn't even want to have sex with anybody, you know?
- I just wanted to be drunk all the time.
- I couldn't function socially without drinking.
- Like I was telling Paul, I would get to the point like
- I would go out, in order to break down
- inhibition I would get drunk, and then
- when I was drunk enough that I could--
- the inhibitions were gone, I was too
- drunk to do what I had broken down the inhibitions to do.
- And I really got vicious.
- And I couldn't remember.
- Everybody would be sitting around having one or two beers,
- I'd be--
- and I'd really get drunk.
- I was getting drunk five days a week.
- And not just high drunk, but drunk where I was sick.
- I remember every night I used to come home and go
- behind the garage and puke.
- That's like day to day.
- And then I started when I would get drunk I wouldn't get tired,
- it would speed me up.
- I'd be walking around and I'd fall off things and fall over
- and I had big, huge bruises on my arms and my legs
- from falling all the time like that.
- I was continuously drunk, you know?
- It was really sickening.
- Thing was, that after a while I wasn't having a good time,
- even in my own head doing that.
- Even when I got drunk, the inhibitions were still there.
- I still had the pressure, the social pressure
- of not doing anything, but just laying
- around being a drunk like that and it really
- got super frustrating.
- INTERVIEWER 2: What were the inhibitions
- that you wanted to break down?
- You said that you got so drunk that you couldn't do the things
- that you wanted to break down?
- What were those things that couldn't--
- MIKE: First, let's see, one major thing
- is, well, I can remember my mother always putting ladies up
- on a pedestal for me.
- Women are something ultra-special.
- They're not people, they're above you, above men,
- "fe-males."
- There was always Grandpa around who supposedly never took
- care of the family very good, so she's
- got this man image from him.
- And my father wasn't with us, you know?
- Like I said, it was super feminine like that,
- so I was getting pressured.
- I can remember arguing with her saying,
- "I didn't mean it that way."
- She says, "What?"
- Then she'd embarrass me in front of relatives and friends
- who come to the house like that, you know, her friends,
- my family.
- Seeing my relatives like that.
- I remember her saying, "He hates women!
- He hates women!
- Look what he said!
- Look what he said!"
- I said, "I didn't mean it like that."
- She says, "Oh, yeah, yeah."
- And you know, I was driven away.
- And the whole thing like that, the whole thing
- of women being so idealistic is so unapproachable, right?
- And that's one thing that always on a social level,
- say out at Binky Brown's something like that,
- is really hard for me now just to imagine
- that those people are just people and not
- off by themselves.
- And it's really hard for me to break down things like that.
- Who I am, I have to know ahead of time.
- I have to talk a few times.
- I can't just go up and say, hi, in a place
- like that because it's still too bizarre for me.
- When I'm sober it's even harder then.
- I couldn't do it at all.
- I couldn't go in a strange place and say, "I like that chick,
- I think I'll go over there and start a conversation with her."
- INTERVIEWER 2: Yeah, but then that's a pressure of the idea
- that hardly anybody goes through the same things about going
- into a bar.
- And the bars aren't really set up for people
- to meet each other, in a way.
- I mean, it's pretty loud music and it's pretty hard
- to go over and say hello and really get to know a person.
- MIKE: No.
- Yeah, I know.
- INTERVIEWER 2: It's sort of a joke, the idea of setting up
- a bar on that aspect, you know?
- MIKE: The first thing I do, I wouldn't even
- look at any anybody in there.
- The first place I'd head to when I went any place
- was just to the bar.
- I'd just sit there and pour four or five or six
- drinks down there and then I could get up
- to take a walk around even to look what was there.
- It's really been difficult because then
- I also had that extra thing of trying
- to live that image of being wild and a hard guy
- and tough and crazy, acting bizarrely in order to attract,
- I don't know, attention, maybe?
- I think that was a part of it too.
- Attract a lot of attention like that.
- And like how could I be serious then right?
- And say, "Hi, how are?
- Look at that one, warthog!"
- You know?
- And that's what it was.
- And then I just keep getting more and more frustration
- and getting drunker and drunker.
- And if I wanted to, I was too drunk.
- I was slobbering around, throwing up.
- I really can't-- I don't think I can really express to anybody
- the amount I used to drink.
- The great quantities and how sick I used to get every night.
- It's like, my days would go, I would get up
- and I wasn't in school, it was like summer.
- Between my first year of college and second.
- I didn't want to work.
- I could've worked if I wanted to, I didn't want to.
- (music playing)
- (laughter)
- (music playing)
- BRUCE JEWELL: That is the beginning
- of a series on one man's experience
- with unsatisfactory roles and images.
- Next week Mike deals with his alter image, Anubis,
- god of death.
- BOB CRYSTAL: The Gay Revolution of Women
- is taking calls for the gay youth group.
- Anyone who is interested in the gay youth group,
- this is a group of people who are eighteen years old
- or younger and the membership in that group is limited
- to that age group, should call the GROW for information
- at 244-9030 or call and ask for Tony between one and three
- on Sunday.
- Gay couples can ask for relationship counseling
- by appointment with Mrs. Helen Dike
- at 232-1840 Tuesday mornings for an appointment later
- in the week.
- She is a member of the Family Services of Rochester.
- And the Syracuse Gay Freedom League
- is sponsoring the twenty-sixth through the twenty-eighth
- of April meeting of the New York State Coalition
- of Gay Organizations.
- Registration is Friday, twenty-sixth
- of April at the GFL office, 103 College Place, Syracuse, 13210.
- That's 103 College Place, Syracuse, 13210.
- Registration continues on Saturday morning
- with the opening session from eleven to twelve.
- Afternoon workshops include women's, men's, and youth
- caucuses, gay professionals, gays and children,
- legislative tactics, and a gay youth consciousness
- raising group.
- A spaghetti dinner will proceed a guest speaker.
- A dance will be held at a university-owned student
- recreation facility.
- The Sunday general session will run from eleven to six.
- For information about attending the conference, call 315--
- area code 315-423-3599 or contact
- the GAGV to arrange to share rides to the conference.
- BRUCE JEWELL: Thank you, Bob.
- This has been Green Thursday for April eighteenth.
- And I'm Bruce Jewell and I'll be back with Bob Crystal two weeks
- from now.
- Coming up next is Ervin T. Rouse, "Orange Blossom
- Special."
- (music playing)