Green Thursday, radio program, December 19, 1974, source recording
- RACHEL PINNEY: Now we're all here at a gay rights
- international conference.
- What are the probabilities that we will all
- be having the same views on gay rights in a year's time?
- And, that we had the same view on gay rights,
- probably a year ago?
- We're not all changing.
- And equally, our Mr. Lester on the television.
- He was probably helping our (unintelligible) a year ago,
- and in a year's time.
- The point is, we don't, once you sign that membership card
- of the Tory party, or the Labour party, or the homosexual party,
- you don't keep changing.
- You stay that way.
- STUDENT 4: But, it's a question of absolutes, isn't it?
- Special certain absolutes, certain absolutes
- which perhaps oughtn't to change.
- Flux is very good.
- But, isn't it flux towards something, which you believe
- ought to be absolute?
- RACHEL PINNEY: I suppose the absolute is miles ahead.
- Can I hear what you have to say, sir?
- STUDENT 10: You said people really do change.
- I'll agree. people are always being bombarded by new ideas.
- They hit them.
- But, I don't believe people change at all.
- Because if they did, then why do we still
- have prejudice when there's so much information
- to the contrary?
- Why within America, where I can speak from,
- there's gobs of information that black and white people, let's
- say, are equal and there's no reason for there
- to be any difference.
- But still, there are people who grow up in the cities.
- And, they're very educated people
- whole come from nice families, so to speak.
- And, they're prejudiced.
- And they say, "Yes I am prejudiced because I
- feel black people are inferior.
- And, that's the way I believe."
- And, you can talk to them forever.
- BRADLEY: And (unintelligible) read that literature?
- STUDENT 10: No, they know that literature.
- BRADLEY: They're not going to take any notice.
- RACHEL PINNEY: They're prejudiced
- because they believe it.
- I mean, look at all the organizations that exist.
- There's the communists, the Marxists, the Maoists,
- the Christians, the brethren, the you name it.
- People who believe in creative listening.
- You name it.
- All these people believe they are saved.
- I'd like to give you a demonstration before we
- go much further. yes?
- BRUCE JEWELL: I was thinking that somebody once
- said, that probably the most civilized gesture ever made
- was when people learned to swear at one another instead
- of hitting one another with clubs.
- And, this probably reinforces the same thing, in a sense.
- Two people in opposition can make statements to one another
- without carrying opposition to these other possibilities,
- which include attack and so on and so forth.
- So, it really enforces it to be at least kind of civilized--
- RACHEL PINNEY: But it's not making
- statements to one another--
- BRUCE JEWELL: --in a verbal exchange.
- RACHEL PINNEY: --when we started we called it (unintelligible)
- naturalistic.
- It is one side only is hurt at the request of the other side.
- It's not you tell me and I'll tell you.
- It's me switches off and you come in.
- So, one side is totally hurt at the request of the listener.
- We must do a demonstration.
- STUDENT 3: Can I go back to where
- you said people don't change?
- Now, I mean Icebreakers in London, which is a telephone
- service of gay people.
- And time and time again, you'll get people who phone up--
- and it can happen with (unintelligible) media--
- gay woman or gay man.
- And, they phone up and they say, their views
- on homosexuality unto this point.
- They're quite clear.
- They say, "Where can I go for aversion therapy?
- I've got this problem about homosexuality.
- I'm married.
- It would be an embarrassment to my wife.
- I've got a duty to my children," et cetera, et cetera.
- And at that point in time, they're
- as much as against homosexuals as the rest of the society--
- self-oppression.
- Now, by coming and by reacting to us and to hearing
- the other side of the story, because they're
- in an environment where they only hear one side according
- to the news of the world.
- And, at the end of that year or at the end of the six months,
- I've seen this happen.
- They are now going out.
- And instead of having to justify themselves as homosexuals,
- they ask people to justify themselves as being anti-gay.
- You know?
- They've got gay pride.
- That person's changed--
- RACHEL PINNEY: They changed by a different technique.
- They've changed because they had fear.
- They were homosexuals and were frightened
- of their homosexuality.
- They come and group with a lot of their peers.
- And they then get courage, which is what all of us
- have gone and done.
- STUDENT 3: But, they've changed their opinions.
- RACHEL PINNEY: Yes, but-- no, it wasn't an opinion.
- It was fear that he had.
- That particular example you've given, it was fear.
- STUDENT 3: So, in your opinion it would
- have to be something which is--
- RACHEL PINNEY: This is meant.
- This particular technique, because there's
- only than one creative listening technique, this particularly
- technique is meant for head on conflict, The sort of thing
- we saw (unintelligible).
- Bye bye.
- You look beautiful (unintelligible) or by mistake?
- PETE: By mistake, actually.
- RACHEL PINNEY: You mean you're on a job that
- needs you to wear those things?
- I thought so.
- Which instrument do you play?
- PETE: Sorry?
- RACHEL PINNEY: Which instrument do you play?
- PETE: Oh, I don't.
- I'm just going to dinner.
- RACHEL PINNEY: See you. (Pinney laughs) What did he say?
- He doesn't--
- STUDENT 11: He said he was going to dinner.
- RACHEL PINNEY: Going to dinner.
- I thought, you know, the orchestra has to play there.
- Let me bring you--
- BRADLEY: Why did you attack him like that?
- RACHEL PINNEY: What?
- BRADLEY: Why did you attack him when (unintelligible)?
- RACHEL PINNEY: It was love.
- He knew it.
- Maybe it didn't look like it to the observer.
- BRADLEY: Didn't look like it to me at all.
- It looked very--
- BRUCE JEWELL: --uncomfortable.
- RACHEL PINNEY: Well, ask him when we see him next time.
- I mean, I will see him again.
- I will go up to him and I will say, "Look,
- I'm not going to comment at all.
- But after you left," this is my fifteen second speech.
- (laughter)
- "There was a feeling that I attacked you when you went out.
- Now I'm going to receive you, Pete.
- I'm not going to comment.
- I'm not going to answer back.
- I'm not going to ask that you listen to me.
- Please come in.
- What it feel like what I did to you when you come out?"
- And he'll tell me the truth.
- STUDENT 12: I didn't say it was an attack.
- RACHEL PINNEY: What?
- STUDENT 3: No, no--
- RACHEL PINNEY: But I mean, you didn't-- you're the observer,
- you see?
- And the observer sees some things
- but doesn't see that I was flirting with him.
- STUDENT 3: Well, that was (unintelligible)
- RACHEL PINNEY: That was pure flirting.
- STUDENT 3: I've observed of you that you have the courtesy
- to recognize people when they're coming.
- Because everybody's coming in and you say, "Oh, you're late,
- but you can sit over there."
- And no, but he just moved.
- You recognized that you saw he was going.
- RACHEL PINNEY: Yes.
- STUDENT 3: You know the--
- RACHEL PINNEY: This is part of my lifestyle.
- I think it's terribly discourteous not to recognize
- people when they come in.
- The times that I've made a mistake
- is when the person coming in late is a teenager
- and I can't get over the embarrassment.
- I've gone wrong there sometimes.
- But you should know there's people coming in because if you
- don't-- we've had one today, (unintelligible) he was not
- walking in, but he sat down and read his paper.
- (unintelligible) he read his paper.
- And I wouldn't have that paper (unintelligible) for him
- to read his paper.
- But he was very difficult to understand
- in a foreign language.
- But if you're going to communicate with a group,
- you must be aware of what every group's doing.
- I mean, I don't know if anyone here went to sleep.
- And I would just say, well, if you
- want to stay asleep (unintelligible)
- or do you want to go and sleep someplace else,
- I'd like to know because if you're asleep there
- and I think you're with me--
- if you go away, please tell me.
- And I'm saying this now.
- If you go away and you fancy anybody,
- please tell me because it upsets the group.
- You know?
- And I think if you're talking to a group you
- should be with them.
- I want a demonstration.
- I want a demonstration.
- I think we'll get one on God.
- We won't get one on sex here.
- Yes?
- BRADLEY: I'm sorry, but having said
- that I thought you were being regressive when you spoke
- to him going back, I'll have to testify,
- but could we hear from the tape because--
- RACHEL PINNEY: No, because the facts to me
- don't matter because the facts aren't the important thing.
- May I ask what your name is?
- BRADLEY: Bradley.
- RACHEL PINNEY: What?
- BRADLEY: Bradley.
- RACHEL PINNEY: If I need the facts--
- I'm a doctor.
- If I need the facts about you, I want the date
- your appendix was taken out.
- And I want the date (unintelligible)--
- BRADLEY: No, it's just that I found (unintelligible)--
- I was going to say to you that I thought
- it was aggressive for you to say, but I wasn't quite sure.
- I may have misheard it, you see.
- I thought you said, "Why do you wear those funny clothes?"
- RACHEL PINNEY: But the fact doesn't matter.
- The fact is, you had an emotion.
- I had emotion.
- He had an emotion, and emotions are (unintelligible).
- They're either up emotions or they're down emotions.
- The fact of what happens to me is absolutely irrelevant
- unless you want a record.
- STUDENT 3: I should mention that we interpreted
- that in different ways and how we wanted to interpret it.
- I would say that you were aggressive
- because you jumped up and you turned around
- and you challenged him.
- But the intent was good.
- So although-- it made maybe a newcomer or something-- no,
- maybe something who couldn't hear the sound of the thing
- if they saw that just on film.
- So you suddenly turned around and his face
- got red when you asked him about his clothes.
- You know, that would have appeared to be aggressive,
- although all the time, I've realized that,
- no, you weren't recognizing him and--
- RACHEL PINNEY: But it can misfire.
- I said one day when I had a group too many kids there
- and the teenagers came in late and I
- tried to incorporate them.
- And I only succeeded in embarrassing them.
- That's the one I remember.
- It can misfire.
- Everything can misfire. (unintelligible)
- misfire can't it?
- (laughter)
- (unintelligible) I mean--
- BRADLEY: (unintelligible)
- (laughter)
- RACHEL PINNEY: I've only got one blanket in Toronto,
- and when I go back, I'm going to put a duvet to take with me.
- That would be the perfectly warm. (Pinney laughs)
- That's a side track.
- I--
- STUDENT 13: I thought actually what you said to that chap
- as you went out was the nicest why the hell are you going out
- now just as I'm getting warm on the subject
- that I've ever heard.
- I thought it was more or less a put down of him
- but in the nicest possible terms.
- You know, that you were slightly insulted that he had gone
- and you wanted to complement him on something else.
- RACHEL PINNEY: That could be so.
- I can't help my analytical knowledge.
- That could have been true unconsciously.
- But I wasn't conscious of it.
- That could have been true unconsciously.
- That I was unconscious of it.
- And I can only say that.
- I have no control of my conscious.
- Can I have a demonstration?
- I won't give one on sex in this community,
- but I might give one on God.
- I can usually get one on the bomb.
- Well, maybe I can give one on the bomb.
- Bomb, sex, God--
- I'm advising anybody to disagree with me on something
- I feel pretty fundamental about.
- STUDENT 3: Yes, you've mentioned them.
- Pro or anti are you?
- Are you pro-God?
- STUDENT 13: Why not be pro-bomb?
- RACHEL PINNEY: No, you can't play.
- You can't play.
- It's got to be real.
- STUDENT 3: No, no, it's got to be real conflict.
- BRADLEY: Well I tried to make conflict
- with you over your treatment of the guy who went out
- and you refused. (unintelligible)--
- RACHEL PINNEY: Right, well, that'll do.
- That will do.
- That will do.
- (laughter)
- Now, what's your Christian name?
- BRADLEY: I've told you.
- It's Bradley.
- RACHEL PINNEY: I didn't remember.
- Say it again.
- BRADLEY: Bradley.
- RACHEL PINNEY: Bradley.
- Right.
- Now--
- BRADLEY: It was aggressive of me to start
- talking (unintelligible)
- RACHEL PINNEY: Bradley, [pause] I didn't like you taking me up
- on what I said to that man because I
- had felt rather-- it's rather an effort for me to be out and
- flirtatious because I'm a very shy person.
- And having made what I thought was a positive gesture to him,
- I minded what seemed to be an aggressive gesture from you.
- That's my fifteen second speech.
- Now, Bradley, I'm totally (unintelligible), and never
- on any occasion, Bradley, am I going
- to ask you to listen to me on this subject, which means,
- of course, we're barred from bringing the subject up again
- at this meeting provided I recognize you.
- Provided I recognize you of course.
- And not at this conference.
- But if on an entirely different occasion not at this conference
- you found me some place and you come up and listen to me
- and (unintelligible) then and only then
- will I consent to speak.
- Now please will you explain to me
- all that you felt about that date
- that I had with that man (unintelligible)
- BRADLEY: Yes, I've been thinking of going, but I thought--
- I didn't have the courage to go I came late.
- I wasn't here this afternoon, so I wasn't in one of the groups.
- And so I didn't really know which group to go to.
- But I thought this sounded interesting, creative
- listening.
- And after listening to you for ten minutes,
- I thought, I think this is balls.
- I'm not interested in it.
- RACHEL PINNEY: Yeah, let me--
- BRADLEY: So I intended to go, but I
- hadn't got the courage to go.
- So when he went, I thought, ah, I was very interested in it.
- Now maybe I was--
- RACHEL PINNEY: I'm sorry, I didn't-- who was very
- interested in it?
- BRADLEY: I was very interested--
- RACHEL PINNEY: In him going.
- BRADLEY: In him going.
- RACHEL PINNEY: Let me recap you--
- BRADLEY: Because I wanted to go.
- RACHEL PINNEY: Let me recap you.
- You came late.
- You weren't here this afternoon.
- And you didn't really know what was going on,
- so you chose this room by its title.
- Having listened to me for ten minutes,
- you thought, oh, well, I wish I could go,
- but I haven't got quite the courage to get on and walk out.
- And then when he got up and went,
- you were very interested in his going (unintelligible).
- BRADLEY: Then I wondered what your reaction would be.
- Now, I am aware--
- RACHEL PINNEY: Your reaction to his going, or--
- BRADLEY: Your reaction.
- RACHEL PINNEY: To which-- who going?
- BRADLEY: To him going.
- RACHEL PINNEY: To him going, yes.
- So you're wondering what my reaction would be, yes?
- BRADLEY: Now-- I must say now that I'm aware that you could--
- you could say that I was expecting
- you to be aggressive to him going because I had previously
- feared your being aggressive to an exit that I might have made.
- RACHEL PINNEY: I see, so you were already
- ready to think that I might be aggressive--
- BRADLEY: Yes.
- I admit this yes.
- RACHEL PINNEY: --because you had it
- in your mind that I might be aggressive to you,
- and this was a fear he was carrying.
- BRADLEY: But I think that my impression was
- that you were even though I may not have quite
- heard your words right.
- That's why I wanted to hear it again on the tape,
- but you wouldn't let me hear.
- I thought you said to him that--
- you made some comment about his clothes,
- suggesting they were rather unusual.
- And although in many areas of Edinburgh, they would be normal
- and our clothes would be unusual--
- but in this conference, he was in the small minority
- wearing such formal clothes.
- And I thought that to point this out when he was going out
- was a kind of--
- an aggressive response to his leaving.
- And then to ask him what instrument he played,
- as if suggesting that you thought he
- was wearing some sort of--
- well, orchestral players wear dinner jackets and ties,
- that his costume-- well, it wasn't as formal as that.
- But you're saying it was extremely formal.
- It was a sort of mockery, which I couldn't really
- understand why you should do that because that's not
- what you were--
- RACHEL PINNEY: So recapping you, when he went out,
- you didn't quite hear what I said.
- That's why you wanted to replay it and I wouldn't let you.
- And you thought that this was a send-up of him going out
- because those clothes, which would be normal outside,
- and yours would be abnormal here it's a bit reversed.
- So when he went out, you thought I was sending him up
- by commenting on his clothes.
- And finally, the final insult was what instrument
- did he play (unintelligible) to say he's
- going out into an orchestra.
- And you felt that this was very aggressive.
- Now--
- BRADLEY: I didn't say very, no, but rather--
- RACHEL PINNEY: --rather aggressive.
- Did I--
- BRADLEY: The tone was nice, but of course it
- could be seen as being ironic.
- RACHEL PINNEY: Did I recap you correctly?
- BRADLEY: Yes.
- RACHEL PINNEY: Now let me give you an overall recap.
- You came in late.
- You haven't been here this afternoon.
- You didn't know what groups there were.
- You picked this one by its name.
- You came here and having sat here and listened to me
- for ten minutes.
- You wanted to get up and go but you didn't quite
- know how to do it.
- And you had been sitting there, possibly fearing my aggression,
- hadn't got up and gone.
- And then when he went up and went, you were all ready for me
- to be aggressive to him because you'd been fearing it.
- That's what you said it might have been.
- And then when I commented on his clothes,
- it looked like a send-up of him because his clothes weren't apt
- for this conference, although they might be normal outside.
- And then the final--
- what instrument do you play was the final send-up.
- And this looked as though I were sending him up and showing
- my displeasure at him going out.
- And you wanted to play it back on that and I wouldn't let you.
- Have I--
- BRADLEY: Yes, and the reason I think that I still think it was
- somewhat aggressive is because to comment on people if they
- are in a minority-- in a situation where they are prone
- to embarrassment anyway--
- i.e. leaving a group--
- I can't see that that is something
- which is going to make them feel happier and more at home
- and more confident.
- RACHEL PINNEY: So the thing--
- BRADLEY: You're exposing his being in a minority.
- RACHEL PINNEY: So I'm just-- the reason
- you think it's aggressive is that in a person in a minority
- of one situation to comment on their clothes
- or exposing them, especially when they're
- doing a thing like leaving the room and somebody who
- was already prone to be embarrassed was not a kind
- thing to do.
- Now have I recapped you correctly?
- BRADLEY: Yes.
- RACHEL PINNEY: Thank you very much.
- Now I'll repeat my promise.
- BRADLEY: Can I say something else?
- RACHEL PINNEY: Please do.
- BRADLEY: That-- I'm not saying there should be taboo subjects,
- but I am saying that clothes are people's identities.
- And when their identity is--
- when somebody leaving is perhaps a little uncertain
- of his identity-- he's apologizing,
- saying, well, I didn't want to say here.
- I must go.
- To pick on that particular point of how he was dressed
- seems to be either unkind or rather thick-skinned.
- RACHEL PINNEY: Now--
- BRADLEY: I think deliberately unkind.
- Well, I'm not saying--
- I don't think it was deliberate, but it may have--
- RACHEL PINNEY: Clothes are people's identity
- and to pick on that particular thing is unkind.
- Now I've given you an overall recap--
- BRADLEY: In that circumstance.
- RACHEL PINNEY: In that circumstance.
- I've given you an overall recap.
- I repeat my promise that provided I recognize you,
- I'm never going to ask you to listen
- to my side on this subject at all,
- ever, even if I have to attend your deathbed
- or you have to attend mine.
- BRADLEY: Well, I haven't heard your side of the subject
- at all.
- RACHEL PINNEY: No, but you won't hear it.
- But, I mean, this is my promise to you.
- And listen as I will thank you very much.
- Goodbye.
- Now, what we usually do under these circumstances-- what
- we usually do, if he's willing, is for us both to sit up here,
- if you'd like to come and join me.
- And the rest of you ask questions as to how
- we felt about the listen.
- Don't go on about the subject, you see,
- because you can't go on about the subject,
- and we don't go on about this guy.
- But if you'd like to ask us both what we felt about that
- listen-- and at least I for one will honestly answer and look
- as though we will.
- As a communication thing, I for one
- will be very willing to answer and I believe you will too.
- BRADLEY: Yes.
- RACHEL PINNEY: So if anyone would like to-- would
- you like to ask questions to either of us?
- STUDENT 14: Yes, well, how were you
- feeling when you were speaking?
- BRADLEY: I was slightly nervous.
- STUDENT 14: Why?
- BRADLEY: To be put in a spotlight among people--
- STUDENT 14: Was it us or what you were saying?
- BRADLEY: I think the technique is slightly unnerving because I
- think it's rather--
- STUDENT 14: It wasn't the audience.
- It was what you were saying that unnerved you.
- Or were you unnerved?
- BRADLEY: No, I don't-- no, no.
- I wasn't going to say that.
- STUDENT 14: It didn't worry you.
- BRADLEY: No, I--
- I don't like to say it because (pause) well, yeah, I
- will say that I don't think I've modified
- my opinion of the incident through that listening.
- STUDENT 4: May I ask for your confirmation
- that I'm asking you-- whether or not in fact you
- didn't feel, which is what I felt,
- that you were deliberately creating
- a theatrical performance and you were
- adducing more and more evidence for your censure on Rachel
- as you were going on because you knew it would
- create a more powerful case?
- BRADLEY: What I was aware of doing, or obviously was doing,
- was forestalling possible criticisms that you might have,
- such as that I myself was feeling the guy's place
- because I wanted to go.
- STUDENT 12: So you thought you were going to go under attack.
- RACHEL PINNEY: I didn't hear that question.
- STUDENT 12: You feel that you were going--
- I mean, if you were going to forestall criticism from her,
- you anticipated an attack from her.
- BRADLEY: Yes.
- STUDENT 15: Yeah, but didn't you realize that she
- wasn't going criticize you?
- BRADLEY: Well, whatever she said,
- she's bound to feel critical of me
- because I'm being critical her-- not of her ideas.
- That's a bad example because I'm not criticizing her ideas
- but her behavior.
- We weren't discussing the bomb, we were discussing her behavior
- as the leader of this group.
- STUDENT 12: You see the criticism as listening.
- That's criticism.
- STUDENT 4: You mean her disagreement is criticism?
- STUDENT 12: Yes.
- If she's not going to say anything to criticize you,
- then the only way she's going to criticize you
- is by listening to you.
- STUDENT 2: So you're actually criticizing yourself.
- RACHEL PINNEY: I didn't hear.
- STUDENT 2: I said he's in fact criticizing himself.
- (unintelligible speaking from group)
- BRADLEY: No.
- The thing is about this method, people
- disagree about something.
- And they don't (pause) it's a one sided thing.
- In fact, you've said nothing about your opinion
- or your side of it.
- You just listen to what I say.
- BRADLEY: I don't have a chance to listen to your side of it
- because you don't say anything.
- STUDENT 3: Is it true that because Rachel wasn't
- responding to what you were saying that you, before you
- said something, had to say to yourself, you know,
- this is such and such?
- Now is that correct?
- Because you know she's going to repeat it.
- And were you in fact criticizing yourself
- by bringing from within yourself the arguments
- against your argument?
- Can you see what I mean?
- BRADLEY: No.
- STUDENT 3: You've got an argument.
- And usually in a position when you argue with people,
- you argue.
- They respond.
- And you've received their response to it,
- their criticism of the argument, their argument against you.
- You've got an argument for.
- But as this wasn't happening from Rachel,
- Rachel was just listening, were you creating within yourself
- the argument against your own argument?
- BRADLEY: Yes.
- I mean, in a way, it did prove something
- of the validity of your method in the sense
- that I was forced to search around for possible reasons
- why I would have any prejudice against Rachel.
- Under the circumstance.
- STUDENT 3: And under those circumstances,
- the argument that you bring you see as a rational one.
- The argument against your argument
- you see as a rational one.
- But whereas if Rachel had said it,
- you could have put it down as being bigoted or being
- hysterical or whatever.
- BRADLEY: I suppose that I said it--
- STUDENT 3: You said it.
- BRADLEY: --because knowing that in an ordinary argument like
- we're all having now, unfortunately, I would have--
- the other person might have come up with--
- STUDENT 3: It's not an argument.
- I'm just getting you to say what I (unintelligible) to say.
- RACHEL PINNEY: Any more questions to him or to me?
- STUDENT 16: (unintelligible)
- RACHEL PINNEY: Now listen.
- Not about the subject.
- By the way, if you ever do this, do be careful
- that the subject doesn't come up again.
- This is important.
- Yes?
- STUDENT 16: Yeah, it seemed to me
- the whole technique indicates to me
- that you think that opinions that are out there anywhere
- have no importance and that you are prepared to admit
- that whatever--
- whatever way you've behaved is something
- which is irredeemable and therefore not worth
- arguing logically about.
- Is that correct?
- RACHEL PINNEY: Is that a question for me?
- STUDENT 16: Yes.
- RACHEL PINNEY: This is not the technique for logic.
- Mathematics is for logic and the science is for logic.
- This is a technique for prejudice,
- and prejudice is unconsciously emotionally motivated illogic.
- So it's not--
- STUDENT 4: (unintelligible) judgement
- about what is prejudice?
- RACHEL PINNEY: This is a technique for people.
- There's a definition for prejudice,
- it's perfectly clear.
- It's anything that doesn't agree with Rachel Pinney.
- That is the definition of prejudice.
- STUDENT 4: Yes.
- Yes.
- Yes.
- RACHEL PINNEY: So it is not intended to be logical.
- It is intended for me to understand Bradley.
- That's the intention.
- When I started, it was me that was battling the bomb.
- Desirous of understanding the man who was keeping the bomb.
- And this was the object of the exercise.
- For Rachel to understand the man who was keeping the bomb.
- Instead of telling him to listen to him.
- And here, the object of the exercise for me
- is for me to understand him.
- STUDENT 17: A little bit on this,
- I'm not sure I understood exactly what you said.
- STUDENT 16: Yeah?
- I couldn't quite (unintelligible).
- STUDENT 17: But if I get what I think you said,
- the point that I want to bring up
- is that the prejudice comes from fear and insecurity.
- Well, I guess insecurity comes from fear too.
- And what I see in this is that is interesting,
- is that when Rachel listens to Bradley,
- he is going to leave being completely
- secure in his position.
- He's had nothing against his position.
- And being secure, he won't fear thinking about it.
- And thinking about it, he might--
- he'll either change his opinion or he'll, you know,
- maybe see that he was right.
- But he'll think about it.
- But if it was a big argument, both Rachel and Bradley
- would probably get very uncomfortable
- and maybe insecure because they didn't really
- know who was right and then not think about it.
- And not thinking about things is going
- to keep people prejudiced.
- And thinking about things and being
- able to not be threatened by the change, yes that's good.
- No one would be threatened by a change
- because there was no threat involved.
- And that was where change come about,
- by Rachel saying I'm not going to say anything against this
- until some other time.
- STUDENT 16: Yeah, all right.
- RACHEL PINNEY: I might pitch that up,
- but that I would love that for my archives, what he's just
- said.
- STUDENT 3: You're prejudiced against them anyway.
- (laughter)
- RACHEL PINNEY: I'd like that speech for my archives
- very much.
- BRUCE JEWELL: So, do you want me to check it out?
- RACHEL PINNEY: Oh, no, don't bother.
- But it could be very nice and I'd like to have it.
- STUDENT 1: If i could add a bit to that,
- it was also endorsed by the fact that you repeated
- and boiled down everything that he said
- in your own words, which almost reinforced Brad's idea
- that not only had you heard what he'd said,
- you'd heard it correctly.
- And it sounded, by the fact that you repeated it, that you
- almost agreed with him.
- You had further made yourself less aggressive towards Brad
- so that Brad would be therefore more prepared to see
- both sides of the argument.
- BRADLEY: What I found uncanny was that you
- recalled everything he said.
- I couldn't.
- RACHEL PINNEY: Can I make a comment there
- if that's a question?
- I have had fourteen years practice and my colleagues
- with me who don't do it as much, when I say why don't you do it,
- they say, well, Rachel you are rather good at it.
- And I used to say it doesn't need practice,
- but I have had fourteen years of practice.
- So I think it does take a bit of practice.
- So I've got to admit that rather reluctantly.
- STUDENT 12: Not so much need practice as it helps I suppose.
- RACHEL PINNEY: (unintelligible)?
- STUDENT 12: It helps to have practice on it.
- RACHEL PINNEY: Yeah.
- Isn't anyone going to ask me what I felt?
- Because I'd like to (unintelligible)--
- STUDENT 16: Yeah, can I just ask you not exactly that question,
- but you say you started this technique
- for your own interests, for you to be able to understand
- other people, right?
- Well, isn't that-- and you said it also
- helps other people to understand you sometimes.
- Your opinions, or your opposition to their opinions.
- Anyway, does it always have a practical,
- use for other people besides yourself, though?
- Because say for instance, in 1933,
- you interviewed Hitler and said, "I disagree with what
- you're proclaiming, could you--
- I'm going to keep quiet and you just
- tell me what exactly you feel."
- Do you think anything would've--
- I know it's absurdly hypothetical, but what--
- RACHEL PINNEY: It's not absurdly hypothetical. (unintelligible)
- I did not interview Hitler, but I
- did listen to Oswald Mosley, his right hand man.
- And I'd like to tell you a story about it if I may.
- STUDENT 16: Yes.
- STUDENT 18: Who is this?
- RACHEL PINNEY: Oswald Mosley, our local little puppet
- would-be Hitler of my generation.
- You're all a little bit too young for Oswald Mosley,
- but he was a would-be Hitler in England.
- And in the very early days when I started this, two of us
- went from the Committee of 100 to call on him by appointment.
- And we landed up there and waited for him to come.
- And he came in the usual busy man (unintelligible)
- you know, (unintelligible) of course now,
- what do you two want?
- And I think I made the speech and I told him
- what we'd come for.
- And he sat here and he said, "Who do you mean to tell me
- that you two have come from the Committee of 100
- to listen to me and to try to understand my views?
- Nobody from the other side has ever walked through those doors
- before."
- Well, that's a true story.
- I then did about four listens to Jeffrey (unintelligible).
- That was his name.
- He came to every meeting I invited him to.
- He came.
- Right, he still a fascist and I still think
- the bomb is a bad thing.
- But I heard him that day.
- What's more, that was in 1962.
- I can still remember what he said.
- And I can still understand him and understand his logic.
- I won't bore you by going on with that story.
- So-- and I wept when they found (unintelligible)--
- (end of recording)