Green Thursday, radio program, February 20, 1975, source recording

  • JOE LEARY: Chairperson, people, I just
  • want to make a very short statement here, and let
  • some of you answer some of the questions that Derek has put.
  • I was able to tell Frank Kameny last night that Ireland
  • has hundreds of GAA groups.
  • Unfortunately, in Ireland and it stands for Gaelic Athletic
  • Association.
  • (laughter)
  • It's nice that we're meeting in this particular hall
  • this morning because this particular hall has
  • a very interesting stained glass window.
  • The window reads, The College of James the Sixth in Edinburgh,
  • founded 1582.
  • I like to think that James came to Edinburgh sometimes
  • for the reasons that we're here today.
  • (laughter)
  • (applause)
  • I went down to London, perhaps, for the same sort
  • of reasons as well.
  • (laughter)
  • Of course, when he got to London,
  • he was a signal success as James the First of England.
  • It's very often forgotten that he
  • was one of great diplomats, the very great diplomats,
  • of the late seventeenth century.
  • Seventeenth?
  • Sixteenth, and early seventeenth.
  • When he went down there, he was gay
  • and he didn't give a damn who cared.
  • And when the Privy Council didn't like it,
  • he told them just what they could do,
  • that he was making George do anyway.
  • On other occasions, he was very diplomatic.
  • The theatre, you will remember, had the female roles in those
  • days played by young men who had not yet grown beards.
  • So, he created the Shakespeare company,
  • Gentlemen of the Bedchamber, and that
  • explained their presence there.
  • James' reign was followed by a rather sadder one.
  • It was followed by Charles the First's reign,
  • and Charles wasn't all that pro-gay.
  • Francis Bacon, of course, died just before James did.
  • Lord Audley, unhappily, didn't.
  • Lord Audley survived into Charles the First's reign,
  • and in the sixth year of that reign, was executed,
  • and two of his homosexual lovers hanged.
  • And the significance of that, for us in Ireland,
  • is that Lord Audley, unfortunately,
  • was also Earl of Castlehaven in the Irish peerage.
  • And the Irish got uptight, at that time,
  • when one of their peers had been executed, and brought
  • in the first Irish statute, in the reign of Charles the First,
  • making the detestable vice punishable with the pains
  • of death.
  • And it remained punishable with pains of death
  • right down to 1861.
  • And then, of course, you have that marvelous act of 1861,
  • which reduced the penalty to mere life imprisonment.
  • It's still mere life imprisonment in both Northern
  • Ireland and in Éire.
  • That is the maximum penalty today in both Northern Ireland
  • and Éire, a term of imprisonment of up to life in prison,
  • if convicted for sodomy.
  • The most mischievous bit of English legislation,
  • from our point of view, is of course the amendment of 1885.
  • Previous to that, the law covered sodomy and attempts
  • of sodomy, and indecent assault. In other words, sodomy
  • and coercion.
  • But the 1885 amendment outlawed all acts of gross indecency.
  • Gross indecency to be defined, of course, by the courts.
  • With the consequences that many of you know so well.
  • Now, it still exists, and still applies
  • in Ireland, North and South.
  • We've asked the authorities in Northern Ireland
  • to give us an assurance, such as SMG got a couple of years
  • ago, that people in Northern Ireland,
  • as United Kingdom citizens, would only be prosecuted
  • if they would have been proceeded against in England,
  • since the 1967 legislation there.
  • And we were politely told to bugger off.
  • No such assurance was forthcoming.
  • And no such assurance has forthcome.
  • And the interpretation of the law
  • is very dicey in Northern Ireland,
  • because they can proceed under imperial law,
  • this 1861, 1885 act, or they can, if they so decide,
  • proceed under the '67 act, as part of the United Kingdom.
  • And then, of course, we haven't got Stormont anymore.
  • And that's a mixed blessing.
  • So we're depending on the love and support
  • of all the people working for law reform in this country
  • to have us included in the United Kingdom Bill.
  • And that's, more or less, the situation
  • as it stands at the present.
  • Now, I'm not a person to say, do this for me, you know,
  • and sit back and let you get on with it.
  • We conspired three years ago in Northern Ireland
  • to set up Belfast Gay Liberation Society.
  • And we've got on conspiring, because that's
  • what we're doing, ever since.
  • We have Sexual Liberation Movement in Dublin.
  • We have Sexual Reform Movement in Coolrain.
  • We have two counseling services, which
  • are totally against the law.
  • We have Cara-Friend in Belfast, and we have Gingerbread just
  • starting in Dublin.
  • This was the situation, more or less, when I spoke at Malvern.
  • It was almost as terrifying as it is speaking here today.
  • And the four of us who had come to Malvern
  • went back, no longer satisfied with local organizations.
  • We took the example of SMG and CHE.
  • We went back to Ireland and we set up
  • an Irish national organization, the Union for Sexual Freedoms
  • in Ireland.
  • Now there are two points about that organization
  • that I make no apology for driving home here today.
  • The Union for Sexual Freedoms in Ireland is a thirty-two county,
  • that is, a Northern Ireland and an Éire organization.
  • It has to be if it's going to be truly national.
  • And the other thing is, we are totally committed
  • to the interests of our women.
  • I heard women last night talking about oppression.
  • Later on, I'd like to give you an example of the oppression
  • of some of the Irish women.
  • Speaking of oppression, in Ireland, North and South,
  • we suffer from oppression in many guises.
  • Legal oppression: the Minister of Home Affairs,
  • one Bill Craig, of whom who may have heard, at one time
  • was asked about homosexual law reform at a constituency
  • meeting.
  • And he said, "Northern Ireland is a God-fearing country.
  • We don't need that legislation here.
  • We have no homosexuals."
  • (laughter)
  • In spite of the fact that Northern Ireland
  • has seventy thousand homosexuals.
  • We have, of course, police oppression.
  • The Union for Sexual Freedoms in Ireland
  • fought its first legal case in the courts of Dublin
  • three weeks ago.
  • It was a tremendous experience for us,
  • because we got the most anti-gay Justice
  • in the South of Ireland, Justice (unintelligible).
  • And we took the line of embarrassing the police
  • witnesses, asking them, "But what length
  • was the boy's penis if they were standing fourteen inches apart
  • and interfering with each other?"
  • (laughter)
  • And we got these people so embarrassed,
  • that eventually the Justice threw the case out.
  • In fact, what he said was, "Dismissed!"
  • (laughter)
  • (applause)
  • In England or Scotland, it would have been a very small victory.
  • It was our first one, and therefore it's important to us.
  • I won't talk about social oppression,
  • because I don't think it's all that different in England
  • and Scotland, from Ireland.
  • We're fighting one interesting case of social oppression
  • at the moment, the Belfast Librarian.
  • In spite of several very reasonable requests
  • to stop Gay News, has refused point blank.
  • He told us he had taken legal aid.
  • We were meant to be impressed.
  • Well, I checked with a couple of gays in the lower courts,
  • knowing that he would have taken the legal aid there.
  • I saw a copy of the legal aid.
  • It's entirely neutral.
  • I'm going along, I hope, with a member of the editorial staff
  • of Gay News, to the full Education
  • and Library Board on the thirtieth of this month, which
  • is thirty-five people, most of whom are clerics,
  • eight of whom are women, meeting in it's full power
  • and glory to present a memorial.
  • If you want to do something to help Northern Ireland gays,
  • write to the chief officer of the Belfast Education Library
  • Board, and you know, say that you deplore
  • oppression of Northern Ireland gays,
  • and this is an example of it.
  • Just that.
  • It'll cost (unintelligible) it'll take you two minutes,
  • and help our cause.
  • Sometimes, we can pin down one person.
  • Sometimes it's more difficult. The Daily Mail
  • was one of the papers, The Sunday Mail, sorry,
  • was one of the papers that gave some coverage to the London
  • Rally.
  • But its Northern Ireland edition didn't.
  • There wasn't a word, never mind a photograph,
  • in its Northern Ireland edition.
  • We got four lines in the Belfast Telegraph,
  • and I think it was five and a half in the Sunday News,
  • and that was it.
  • It's a very old tactic to keep people ignorant,
  • it stops keeps the thing back.
  • I won't say anything about the Church.
  • My views on the Church are well known.
  • The saddest however, the saddest oppression of gays,
  • as far as I'm concerned, is oppression by gays.
  • (applause)
  • And in Ireland, we suffer to one hell
  • of an extent from oppression by gays.
  • You see, I rock the boat.
  • I'm often accused of that.
  • I'm expected to take this argument seriously,
  • you and your people in USFI are rocking the boat.
  • The bloody boat should have sunk years ago.
  • (laughter)
  • USFI is unique in one important aspect.
  • I only discovered this last night.
  • I haven't had time to check my information.
  • I hope I'm right.
  • We have four national officers, two of them are women.
  • But our chief national officer, the National Coordinator
  • of USFI, is a woman.
  • We didn't elect her because she was a woman.
  • There was the usual business of nominations
  • and all the rest of it.
  • Our national coordinator is a woman
  • because that woman was the best person for the job.
  • She needs your love and support very much this weekend.
  • Because she's met one hell of a lot of opposition
  • from people who don't want their boats rocked.
  • And not only that, but she's a woman goddamn it.
  • And at the moment, one unaffiliated Irish
  • gay organization is running a slur campaign
  • because she's a woman.
  • She has our love and support.
  • I ask for your love and support for her.
  • I had the courage to come and speak here
  • today because after Malvern and after London,
  • I know that a lot of Irish people,
  • in spite of the outrages that are being perpetrated
  • under an Irish flag, have the love and support
  • of a great number of people.
  • And that's what gives us in USFI the hope
  • for achieving something.
  • We're a small number.
  • We're going forward with whatever little courage,
  • whatever little victory from time
  • to time, feeling that you're behind us.
  • On behalf of the national officers,
  • and all the people who are interested and sympathetic
  • towards USFI, thank you very much.
  • (applause)
  • CONFERENCE ATTENDEE: The question
  • I think we'd like to put to you is, how,
  • as a member of the state legislature,
  • do you think that working within the confines
  • of that legislature you can satisfy
  • the needs of the people you represent,
  • the gay community, and women's rights as well?
  • ELAINE NOBLE: Well, you also have
  • got to remember that I represent my constituency of almost
  • fifty thousand people within the district that I was elected--
  • was made up of a lot of senior citizens, people
  • from thirty-eight nationalities.
  • In other words, those people who elected me
  • were not gays, but rather senior citizens.
  • That may come as a shocker.
  • But what I'm saying is that my constituency is not only gays.
  • And let if you want to say women's, or women's
  • rights, or feminist but rather, a community of people.
  • In a very self-conscious effort in my district,
  • and in our area of Boston, we've been trying for ten
  • to twelve years to try and make a little microcosm of what
  • we'd like to see society be.
  • And in essence, you may very well
  • see some of that happening in the district that I represent.
  • In terms of the laws of Massachusetts,
  • it's probably one of the most archaic states,
  • where it's still a felony.
  • And once I won my election, the head of a very old council,
  • called the Governor's Council, said
  • that they would like deny me my seat
  • because I was a practicing criminal.
  • But as you know, the laws of Massachusetts
  • don't include make any specific reference to women.
  • So then I said, "Well, the law isn't written for me.
  • I'm a lesbian, I'm not included in that law."
  • They hadn't thought of that.
  • (laughter)
  • So I'll be sworn in January First.
  • People are going to say, "Is this
  • going to be a difficult thing for you, Elaine,
  • representing your constituency?
  • Are you just going to listen to gays?"
  • And some male homosexuals say to me,
  • "Are you just going listen to the women?
  • Just going to listen to the lesbian feminists?"
  • And I think it's more of a problem of who are perceiving
  • it, rather than one for me.
  • In terms of changing the very archaic laws,
  • I'm cosponsoring all the bills, and I'm sponsoring civil rights
  • bills for gays this year.
  • And you've got to remember that when
  • I was working three years as a lobbyist,
  • I began to know the system very well.
  • So.
  • I built up a relationship between sixty members
  • of the House and Senate, so that I'm not
  • going up there by myself.
  • I have a very close working relationship with the Black
  • Caucus, and just recently organized a Women's Caucus
  • within the house.
  • So I've talked with our base for pressure, for change.
  • And, unfortunately, no matter how well we like each other,
  • change comes about when you push people.
  • When you apply pressure lightly, gently, but effective, steady
  • pressure.
  • I think it's going to be very difficult for the members
  • of the House to not see their way through
  • to make some reforms.
  • Particularly since I'm now in their club.
  • When they realized that I could win,
  • they came around and asked me if I'd run as an Independent.
  • And I said, "No thanks, boys.
  • I want in the club."
  • And I (pause) I think we're going
  • to see some interesting things.
  • I can't predict if my presence in the house
  • is going to make bring about more
  • effective and rapid change.
  • I think it will.
  • I think it's going to be very difficult
  • for the ignorant members of the House
  • to continue to talk about "those people," when
  • one of "those people" happens to be sitting on their committee.
  • I think probably one thing that I want to leave you with,
  • that I remembered when I was campaigning.
  • A little old drunken man came out,
  • and my friends who are with me have heard this before,
  • because it will always stay in my mind, probably until I die.
  • And he was wandering down the street, and when he realized,
  • you know, I was the lesbian, rather than the straight woman
  • who was running.
  • And he said, "My god, if you get elected, every broad
  • and pervert in the country will want in."
  • And I said, "That's right."
  • (laughter)
  • (applause)
  • But, I think what I would like to leave you with,
  • if any of you of going to be running for office,
  • and thinking about change, your responsibility
  • is to the people.
  • My responsibility is certainly to you,
  • but my immediate responsibility is
  • to be as best a representative as I can be.
  • If I do you any service, I do you a service
  • by doing what I do, the best I can do it.
  • And by that I mean being the best
  • representative for my district.
  • And not just making myself listening to one, even
  • no matter how close that one is to me
  • and trying to be as open as possible Therein,
  • I am effective.
  • And by people perceiving that I am effective and genuine
  • in that way, they may which I know, many of them
  • are already willing to change the laws of Massachusetts.
  • Do you have any questions?
  • Is this-- I always like to open it up,
  • even though it's gotten to the formal time.
  • CONFERENCE ATTENDEE: Yeah, (unintelligible)
  • can you speak more about women in the United States?
  • ELAINE NOBLE: What?
  • CONFERENCE ATTENDEE: Could you speak more about women?
  • ELAINE NOBLE: More about women in the United States?
  • Well, I think that one of the things that's
  • been most effective in the United States,
  • even as Frank was mentioning getting involved
  • in the gay movement in '62 and '63, one of the things
  • that I think we've had to take care of as lesbian feminists,
  • is to get our straight sisters, or sisters
  • who have other lifestyles, more involved
  • in the women's movement.
  • Many of us in '62 and '63 found it very difficult
  • to even work within the gay movement.
  • Many of us did not leave.
  • And I'm not saying I left, but it was very difficult
  • because, for instance, when I wanted
  • to I thought I would make a good chair of a gay task force,
  • a man said to me, "But that's a man's job."
  • Well, I said, "Well, maybe some of the women
  • should make input as to how the laws are
  • going to be used politically, even though we're not
  • written in to them."
  • The climate might change so that they
  • will use it politically against us,
  • as happened in my last election.
  • It became very political.
  • All of a sudden, I was a practicing criminal
  • and they wanted me out.
  • And a man said to me at that time, "Um, that's ridiculous,
  • the laws really don't concern you anyway."
  • And I'm just picking out examples,
  • and you must understand why women, after ten or twelve
  • years said, we must look for allies and friends.
  • And many of us got involved in the feminist perspective.
  • It is through the women's movement
  • that we use the word sexism.
  • I don't want you to get nervous with this,
  • because I'm assuming that most of us
  • are mature people in this room.
  • We're having a mature relationship,
  • sending and receiving.
  • And what I'm trying to say is that, that very thing
  • that you'll hear being tossed around the room a lot
  • in the next few days, sexism, is an idea
  • of people looking at someone as an object
  • and not as a human being.
  • And a person who is sexist, and if we're
  • saying that let's say a male is sexist,
  • or a male person is sexist, they can also
  • be sexist to another male, too.
  • We're talking about a head set.
  • And that's really what the women's part of the women's
  • movement has been about.
  • And a lot of American males, I think,
  • have begun to view the same philosophy as we have.
  • So that it is not seen and I again,
  • think that you should think of it is not seen as a splitting.
  • Because that's a heterosexual viewpoint
  • of the world in general, an either or, a splitting,
  • or divisive.
  • It is not a splitting, but rather, an addition.
  • It's another way of looking at the world.
  • It's another addition that can only enrich us
  • as interesting human beings.
  • One of my colleagues when I was teaching at Emerson College
  • said to me when I was drawing up a curriculum
  • for a program that I helped create,
  • and then I helped destroy, because people were saying
  • one very fine professor, who, in fact, I just lectured
  • in his class before I came here, said, "Well,
  • that's ridiculous."
  • Well, I said, "Why don't we talk about people
  • in the environment, rather than mankind in the environment.
  • Because this mankind, where do I fit into mankind?"
  • And he said, "That's ridiculous.
  • When I say man, everyone knows that I mean women."
  • And I said, "But it doesn't say that."
  • So what we're really talking about--
  • CONFERENCE ATTENDEE: (unintelligible)
  • the English language.
  • ELAINE NOBLE: Well, we're talking about interpretations,
  • I think.
  • I mean, that's it's how one interprets
  • the English language.
  • And I'm saying many people interpret the English language
  • as the absence of human missing.
  • And sometimes it's part of the race.
  • But anyway, that's what women are into in America.
  • We're in it to try to change sort
  • of ways of looking at things.
  • Not taking away, but rather, addition.