Green Thursday, radio program, July 11, 1974

  • (Music playing)
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Hello.
  • I'm Bruce Jewell.
  • And this is Green Thursday for July 11.
  • Got with me, of course, Bob Crystal.
  • BOB CRYSTAL: Who mucked the introduction.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Oh.
  • Never.
  • And you just heard Kraftwerk with "Heimatklaenge."
  • I don't know what that means.
  • Klaenge sounds like something--
  • BOB CRYSTAL: It's a noise.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: --banging away.
  • But anyhow.
  • This evening, we're going to have the continuation
  • of the Intro 475 hearings.
  • And we'll discuss what we're going to hear
  • a little bit later on that.
  • And I think, having just come back from gay pride week, Bob,
  • you wanted to say some things about media reaction
  • to gay pride week, which I think we might as well start out
  • by saying drew, according to police estimates,
  • 43,000 people.
  • BOB CRYSTAL: Yes, it was the largest of all the marches.
  • Larger than the first two combined.
  • If you remember, if you were listening to me two weeks ago
  • when I was getting ready to go down to the march,
  • I asked everyone who was in Rochester who was not
  • going to the march to watch the media
  • and see just exactly how discriminated
  • against gay people are.
  • I didn't think we were that badly discriminated against.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Yeah, there wasn't a note in either
  • of the Rochester newspapers.
  • This march, at 43,000 people, was half the size
  • of the major civil rights march--
  • rather the major anti-war marches in Washington DC.
  • Therefore, it represented a pretty large--
  • it drew people from all over the country.
  • BOB CRYSTAL: Yes.
  • I was talking to one man down in New York,
  • and he said that a march of 43,000 people
  • was larger than most of the marches this country
  • has seen except for Martin Luther King's
  • famous march and the anti-war May Day marches.
  • And I thought that what would happen
  • was we would get a page four in the B section of the Times
  • Union on an off day, such as maybe Monday or Tuesday.
  • I was surprised to find that the march wasn't even put
  • on the wire services.
  • So we have gone from being "use at your own discretion"
  • material to "well, you could use it if we put it on,
  • but we're not going to put it on" material.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Well, I noticed there's
  • weekly, almost daily, coverage of the Houston murder cases,
  • but no coverage of this other case.
  • And I think the point, again, to make
  • is that media in this country, the country of 200
  • million people, covering the area that we cover,
  • makes or breaks issues.
  • They exist or don't exist according to what
  • the media chooses to cover.
  • That is, if there are 10,000, 100,000 people,
  • 200,000 people starving in some remote country,
  • it doesn't exist for Americans unless it's
  • covered in the media.
  • And the emphasis the media puts on it
  • has a great deal of influence on how we react to it.
  • BOB CRYSTAL: As much as I claim to be a pessimist,
  • I've always been very much of an idealist.
  • And I thought that everyone claiming
  • that Big Brother is watching you,
  • and especially the part in the novel about Big Brother
  • rewriting history was a bunch of bullshit.
  • And you might be able to tell that I'm a little bit upset.
  • I think that Big Brother is not only watching,
  • but Big Brother is deciding who's going to do what.
  • And the question of whether the gay liberation movement
  • is valid or not does not rest with the gay people
  • and never has.
  • I'm beginning to worry that it rests with--
  • BRUCE JEWELL: I don't know if I'd go quite so far as that.
  • I think local action is very important.
  • And gay groups can make themselves felt within various
  • at the level of the cities and the states and the counties.
  • I think, on another level, there's
  • something rather important going on.
  • I don't usually discuss American national politics,
  • but it's pretty clear that the country has
  • to make major changes, which are much more devastating in terms
  • of the way they're likely to affect people's lives
  • than the gay civil rights movement is ever going to be.
  • And yet, we don't seem to be able to show
  • any flexibility as a nation in regards to this issue.
  • It makes me a little bit pessimistic
  • how we're going to confront issues of much greater import
  • to the nation as a whole.
  • BOB CRYSTAL: Gay liberation movement
  • has been fighting what has been called the discrimination
  • of ignorance.
  • And that is, if we don't see you, you're not there.
  • That is important both to the gay people who
  • are being told to come out and asked to come out because they
  • can hide, but also because of the fact
  • that, even when one does come out, one is hidden and ignored.
  • And I think that Rochester is in a much better situation
  • than the nation as a whole because we
  • have been developing-- slowly, of course,
  • but we have been developing a communication with the media.
  • The fact that this radio program is
  • the first on a commercial radio station
  • is an example of the fact that we're moving a lot better
  • than the nation as a whole.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: OK.
  • Now, let's see.
  • I guess we better get on with the interview, which is going
  • to be pretty long, I think.
  • BOB CRYSTAL: OK.
  • The next record is Michael Cohen, "Pray to Your God."
  • (Music playing)
  • Bobby, since you've gone away, I haven't
  • had no peaceful day in my time.
  • And no one was as good for me.
  • You walked on waters endlessly.
  • You made rhymes.
  • Go off to Cape Cod.
  • Pray to your god.
  • Stick in the needle till you find the vein.
  • Scratch the 8-ball.
  • Climb a grass wall.
  • You find me here just the same.
  • You know, I thought we'd make the best of friends.
  • I thought the means would meet the ends.
  • Was I wrong?
  • 'Cause now I've got my axe to grind.
  • You left me by some empty shrine.
  • Babe, you just weren't strong.
  • Yeah, go off to Cape Cod.
  • Pray to your god.
  • Stick in the needle till you find the vein.
  • Baby, go scratch your 8-ball.
  • Climb your grass wall.
  • You're gonna find me here just the same.
  • Yeah, I'm the same for you, baby.
  • You say you wanna be promiscuous,
  • but that'll be just hit and miss.
  • You'll crumble.
  • And baby, I can't let you fall to the bars, the baths,
  • the trucks and all.
  • The meat rack tumble.
  • Yeah, go off to Cape Cod.
  • Oh, pray to your god.
  • You can't stick in the needle, oh, till you find the vein.
  • Scratch your 8-ball.
  • Climb your grass wall.
  • You'll find me here just the same.
  • Bobby, since you've gone away, I just
  • ain't had no peaceful day in my time.
  • And no one was as good for me.
  • You walked on waters endlessly.
  • You made your rhymes.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: The new home of the Metropolitan Community
  • Church in Los Angeles that cost MCC
  • $300,000 has been put under tight security following
  • an attempt by someone to burn it down.
  • A man described as over 6-feet tall and well-groomed
  • was seen attempting to escape from the church
  • after setting three small blazes, which were put out
  • without any significant damage.
  • After smashing the front door window with a two-by-four
  • and finding several MCC members standing outside.
  • The arsonist reversed his tracks and succeeded
  • in escaping through the side door in the building's
  • small chapel that serves as a synagogue for MCC's
  • affiliated Jewish congregation.
  • MCC in various cities has long been the target of arsonists.
  • This time, MCC officials expect that the arson attempt
  • may be connected with the bar protest organized Friday night,
  • June 21, by Reverend Troy Perry and Reverend Robert Sirico.
  • The two-hour picket outside the Paradise Ballroom,
  • protesting alleged discrimination
  • against black and women, "crippled their business"
  • to put it in Reverend Sirico's words.
  • And this may have brought about the attempted arson attempt.
  • BOB CRYSTAL: The biennial convention
  • of the American Nurses Association
  • in San Francisco on June 11 denied appeals
  • to set up an official gay task force within its ranks.
  • But the response of individual participants
  • to workshops and hospitality suites
  • sponsored by gays within their midst was overwhelming.
  • The task force status was denied to the Philadelphia Center Gay
  • Nurses Alliance because homosexuality does not
  • meet the requirements of being either racial or ethnic
  • in nature, ANA leadership informed the gay leadership.
  • But the setback was at least partially compensated
  • when workshops, set up by gay nurses,
  • drew double and triple the capacity planned.
  • A second session of one workshop was
  • scheduled after 600 persons tried to attend
  • a session aiming at 200.
  • Though faced with a news blackout
  • in the official convention newsletter,
  • the gay nurses, led by Philadelphia's Carolyn Innes
  • and David Waldron, somehow got their message
  • across to thousands of convention participants.
  • The GNA information booth distributed 2,500 brochures
  • and virtually exhausted its sale of books and pamphlets.
  • The gay nurses are urging the hospital administrators
  • and nurses create an atmosphere where
  • gay people are accepted as staff members and as patients.
  • A workshop audio-visual presentation illustrated some
  • of the problems--
  • the mocking of gay medical staff,
  • less-than-adequate care of gay patients,
  • and the difficulty of gay patients
  • have relating openly with gay friends
  • and lovers in the hospital.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: The Washington State Department
  • of Social and Health Services has dropped a section banning
  • gay foster homes from its proposed revision
  • of foster home guidelines.
  • The action came after months of protest
  • by gays and other minority groups.
  • The section deleted applied to foster parents candidates
  • with severe problems in their sexual identity.
  • Gays were automatically placed in that category.
  • However, wording was retained which
  • will prohibit approval of foster homes
  • in which parents are not free of chronic conflict
  • both within and without the family group.
  • According to Mary Morrison, head of the Action Childcare
  • Coalition, the ACC, a leader in the struggle
  • to liberalize the regulations, the paragraph which
  • was retained may also be construed
  • as being discriminatory against gays.
  • Despite the state government's deletion
  • of some offensive passages, the changes did not, on the whole,
  • meet the Action Childcare Coalition's demands,
  • and ACC leaders said they plan to continue
  • pressing for a total rewriting of the regulations.
  • BOB CRYSTAL: Soviet film director Sergei Parajanov,
  • arrested in December on charges of homosexuality,
  • has been sentenced to a prison labor camp for six years,
  • according to reports reaching the west from Kiev
  • in the Ukraine.
  • Parajanov's most celebrated film was
  • Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors, which
  • won a scope of international awards in 1965 and 1966
  • and was released in the United States four years later.
  • That's a score of international awards.
  • Two subsequent films won critical acclaim in the west
  • but were banned in the Soviet Union.
  • Parajanov was tried in Kiev on both the homosexuality charge
  • and a second count of incitement to suicide.
  • He reportedly attempted to kill himself while in jail.
  • The filmmaker's arrest by Soviet Secret Police, the KGB,
  • on December 17 prompted a number of protest demonstrations
  • when the news was released by Agence France-Press in January
  • of this year.
  • Among the protests, which flared in Copenhagen,
  • New York, and San Francisco, gay activists
  • played a prominent part.
  • Advocate, 142.
  • (Music playing)
  • Come on.
  • I went down to the local bar to have a drink or two.
  • As I was marching toward the jukebox, my eyes fell on you.
  • The bartender said you're disengaged.
  • And I saw you trying to look my way.
  • I said, now wait.
  • Wait!
  • Stop a minute.
  • I said, now don't.
  • Don't!
  • Don't go no farther.
  • I said, now wait.
  • Wait!
  • Stop a minute.
  • 'Cause I really, really, really got to have you.
  • I always see you walking in the street.
  • Always looking so nice and neat.
  • Always got you on my mind.
  • I know we're gonna have a good time.
  • Bartender said you're disengaged.
  • And I saw you trying to look my way.
  • I said, wait.
  • Wait!
  • Stop a minute.
  • I said, don't.
  • Don't!
  • Go no farther.
  • I said, now wait.
  • Wait!
  • Stop a minute.
  • 'Cause I really, really, really got to have you.
  • Oh, yeah!
  • I said, now, wait Wait!
  • Stop a minute.
  • I said, now don't.
  • Don't!
  • Go no farther.
  • I said, now wait.
  • Wait!
  • Stop a minute.
  • I said, now don't.
  • Don't!
  • Go no farther.
  • Oh, yeah!
  • I said, wait.
  • Stop a minute.
  • I said, now don't.
  • Don't!
  • Go no farther.
  • I said, wait.
  • Stop a minute.
  • I said, now don't.
  • Don't!
  • Go no farther.
  • Take it home.
  • Wait.
  • Stop a minute.
  • I said, don't go no farther, baby.
  • I said, wait.
  • Stop a minute.
  • I said, don't, don't go no farther.
  • You're looking all right, babe.
  • Looking all right.
  • Let me buy you a drink.
  • Everything's all right.
  • I said, now wait.
  • Don't go no farther.
  • BOB CRYSTAL: That was J. Geils Band, "Wait."
  • BRUCE JEWELL: The interview we're going to hear now--
  • or rather a recording of a session
  • involving Intro 475, the first civil rights amendment
  • to be proposed in New York City last year.
  • It features a housewife, I believe, from Brooklyn.
  • This woman is not a vicious woman.
  • She's definitely against gay rights,
  • but that doesn't make a person vicious.
  • And she certainly isn't vicious.
  • She's not a killer.
  • She doesn't want to hurt anybody.
  • I think, as you listen, you'll find, though,
  • that she is very much a victim of ignorance.
  • She half sees the issues.
  • She doesn't quite understand them.
  • But emotionally, purely emotionally,
  • she's against them.
  • Unfortunately, people such as this fall victim to needless
  • fears, as she has done.
  • And I think this interview, or this recording,
  • illustrates just the danger of ignorance and the kind of fear
  • that ignorance can breed.
  • All right.
  • HEAD COUNCILMAN: Sylvia Spray.
  • These are cases of discrimination.
  • People will testify.
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: I'm not a scheduled speaker,
  • and this is the first time in my life
  • I speak in front of more than six, ten to twelve people.
  • And the ten, twelve people at any time are my relatives.
  • But I've been sitting here for hours,
  • and I realized more and more that, in our society today,
  • mothers and fathers have forgot they don't count.
  • Everyone talks-- psychologists, or people
  • of all homosexual directions are-- where are the mothers?
  • Where are the fathers, for crying out loud?
  • Where are the mothers and fathers of these people?
  • Either they left them or--
  • HEAD COUNCILMAN: Mrs. Spray.
  • Mrs. Spray.
  • You're not--
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: I am excited.
  • HEAD COUNCILMAN: You're not making a speech
  • to the audience.
  • You're addressing your remarks to this committee.
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: Sorry.
  • HEAD COUNCILMAN: Now please do so.
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: I'm sorry.
  • I'm not a speaker, and I am carried away
  • or I wouldn't be here.
  • HEAD COUNCILMAN: You're not going to convince the audience.
  • You're trying to convince this council
  • on a matter of legislation.
  • So please keep your remarks confined to us.
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: We've been hearing here
  • about moral values, legal values.
  • A parent doesn't look at the life of her child
  • by these values.
  • The way she looks at the child is
  • how can I raise my child best in this world to be happy?
  • And what can I do in this world to see that my child shall have
  • an atmosphere which will be in the direction of making
  • my child as happy as I, a parent, want her to be.
  • Now, I have a daughter.
  • I would not want-- and I speak for many parents.
  • I think I speak, perhaps, for every mother in this world.
  • I would not want my daughter to grow up in such direction
  • that she will never know the embrace of a child
  • around her arms.
  • I would not want my son never to know that.
  • And by taking this direction called this sexual orientation,
  • these people will never know that joy.
  • And we parents do not want our children
  • deprived of that greatest joy in this life.
  • Now, if we're going--
  • more and more-- now, if a fellow is a murderer
  • and he hides it-- if people murder and they hide it,
  • society is safe because they have to hide it.
  • But if the murderer comes out and says,
  • "I'm a murderer, so what?" then we're lost.
  • The world will be peopled by murderers, and what can we do?
  • If a person steals but hides it, we're safe because also,
  • as long as he hides it, he doesn't come out and say,
  • "I'm a thief, so what?"
  • And we mothers and fathers feel, if a homosexual teaches
  • in our schools, alright.
  • If he works, alright.
  • HEAD COUNCILMAN: Mrs. Spray.
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: But as long as he--
  • HEAD COUNCILMAN: Mrs. Spray.
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: --has to feel--
  • HEAD COUNCILMAN: Will you--
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: --he has to hide it, society is safe.
  • But when he no longer has to hide it-- when he says,
  • "I'm a homosexual, so what?
  • I want to be around your children.
  • I want to be everywhere So what?"
  • Then not only are we not, our children are not safe.
  • No one is here to speak for the children.
  • Parents are the only ones who can speak for children,
  • and who will speak for children.
  • So in that vein, I say, as long as the homosexuals
  • have to hide the fact-- as long as society
  • has left the alternative of being with them or not
  • being with them, we can hope for a society
  • where children will grow up to have full, happy lives.
  • But when the homosexuals could surround the children wherever
  • they are in any numbers, then we cannot make the wholesome,
  • happy, proper society.
  • And we mothers and fa--
  • I think if there's one mother or fath-- even
  • a lesbian mother, if she's honest, would say,
  • I don't want that type of life for my child.
  • HEAD COUNCILMAN: Mrs. Spray, one minute.
  • Mrs. Spray, one minute.
  • Would you go right next to the microphone?
  • Remain where you are.
  • Would you answer a question of Councilman Burden's?
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: If I am able to, yes.
  • CARTER BURDEN: Mrs. Spray, you said at the end
  • that, as long as people have the alternative
  • to be with the people they wanted
  • to be with, heterosexual or homosexual,
  • then we'll be safe--
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: I mean children.
  • I'm not talking-- I can be--
  • CARTER BURDEN: Right.
  • Well, you talk about--
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: I'm talking about the children who
  • must be guided.
  • So you can't give them a choice.
  • HEAD COUNCILMAN: Mrs. Spray, talk into the microphone.
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: The parents have to make
  • that choice for the children.
  • CARTER BURDEN: You did say-- right,
  • but you did say as long as you're
  • provided with that alternative.
  • As long as the parents are provided with that alternative,
  • right?
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: Yes.
  • CARTER BURDEN: Isn't that inconsistent, then,
  • with saying it's better if people hide the fact
  • that they're homosexual?
  • I mean, how do you then know whether you're with homosexuals
  • or heterosexuals?
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: Well, as long as they have to hide it.
  • I made that statement.
  • I feel that they can't look like one.
  • They can't talk like one.
  • So they can't influence our children.
  • But what they seem to be fighting for,
  • is gather, is the right to say, "I'm a homosexual.
  • I'll do what I want.
  • I'll be where I want.
  • I'll be with your children.
  • I openly proclaim it, and it must be accepted."
  • And this is the same as for a murderer to say--
  • well, I don't want to put it in the same category,
  • but it gives them the same freedom.
  • A murderer might say, "I want to be a murderer,
  • and I want the free--" we can't condone everything
  • in the name of civil liberties and in the name of-- we have
  • to have some restrictions, not for the sake of the adults;
  • for the sake of the child.
  • CARTER BURDEN: What individual rights do
  • you feel should be protected?
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: I think that an overt homosexual who looks it,
  • acts it--
  • I think the Board of Education should have a right
  • to say, we can't hire you because your influence,
  • because you look like this and act like this
  • is harmful to the children.
  • On the other hand, a homosexual who doesn't look it--
  • I'm not an unkind person.
  • I wouldn't want to take the position no.
  • He's in a classroom with children.
  • You don't know what he's going to say.
  • In our society, no ruling, no law, nothing is perfect,
  • and I don't look for perfection.
  • I say give that type of homosexual
  • the benefit of the doubt.
  • But not the one--the overt one.
  • CARTER BURDEN: Then the keys, as far as you're concerned,
  • or whether an individual looks or acts
  • like a homosexual, not really--
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: I think you'll have to leave it to the--
  • CARTER BURDEN: --the fact that he is or isn't?
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: --judgement of those people in the board--
  • and the Board of Education would have
  • to make the judgment as to whether there's
  • any danger of this by his record,
  • this homosexual seducing or promoting this idea.
  • CARTER BURDEN: But you would--
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: We'll have to leave that
  • to those people who can make these judgments,
  • and not a law that says you've got to hire them.
  • CARTER BURDEN: You would say, then,
  • though that if an individual who did not
  • look or act like a homosexual--
  • I want to find out what your definition
  • of looking and acting is--
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: We might take a chance on that--
  • CARTER BURDEN: --and who does not have--
  • AUDIENCE: (Commotion)
  • CARTER BURDEN: --a demonstrated record of child molesting,
  • then you would not object to he or she teaching in schools.
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: I only say that because I can't find
  • in my heart to exclude him.
  • But if I wanted to be real pushy about the thing, I would say,
  • if it raises any chance of influencing
  • the children that he's around, I would say exclude him
  • because I think the rights of our children,
  • the lives of our children should come before gay liberation.
  • CARTER BURDEN: I think you mentioned, you have a daughter,
  • do you?
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: Yes, I have a daughter.
  • CARTER BURDEN: Is she in school now?
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: No, I have a married daughter.
  • CARTER BURDEN: A married daughter.
  • When she was in school, were you aware
  • of what the private lives were of her teachers?
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: This is no longer private.
  • This is not what this whole--
  • the whole thrust is it shouldn't be private.
  • They don't want to be hypocrites then.
  • CARTER BURDEN: You're worried about--
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: They want to openly be (unintelligible)--
  • CARTER BURDEN: You're about children being influenced,
  • right?
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: Beg pardon?
  • CARTER BURDEN: You're worried about children
  • being influenced, right?
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: Very much worried.
  • CARTER BURDEN: Alright.
  • Do you know--
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: Well, by children--
  • children are part of the society,
  • I would say, by society being affected.
  • Children are very much a big part of society.
  • The most important part, I would say.
  • CARTER BURDEN: Would you agree that there
  • are other things that you would not want your children
  • or other children to be influenced by--
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: Well, we're not discussing other things now.
  • We're discussing this now.
  • CARTER BURDEN: What I'm getting at is that there, presumably,
  • is a possibility of all kinds of influences existing--
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: Yes, and I will fight when those cases come up,
  • if I can, and I'm fighting when this comes up.
  • CARTER BURDEN: Well.
  • You said in the beginning that you
  • really only wanted your children or our children to be happy.
  • Is that correct?
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: Right.
  • This is the greatest moral right.
  • I don't know how-- you people say you don't know how to judge
  • a moral--
  • CARTER BURDEN: Do you feel that there are different--
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: But it's our children's happiness
  • should decide morality.
  • CARTER BURDEN: Do you feel that the same thing makes everybody
  • happy or that people are made happy by different things?
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: No, but when, overwhelmingly, it
  • makes most people happy.
  • Nature itself-- look at dogs as children, cats as children,
  • any life that the direction of which
  • is aimed against having children,
  • how can you condone it?
  • CARTER BURDEN: What-- (sigh).
  • If you had a child who was homosexual
  • and that child said to you that that, indeed,
  • is what made them happy, would you
  • say you have no right to be happy in that way?
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: Oh, I would say I have no right to interfere.
  • But as long as I can fight against this possibility--
  • as long as any parent can fight against this possibility,
  • they should.
  • CARTER BURDEN: Aren't you really saying
  • that people have a right to be happy
  • as long as it's happy in the way that you deem appropriate?
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: Well, we parents should be the one to decide --
  • yes, because we are the only ones who really know--
  • CARTER BURDEN: You're supposed to decide
  • what makes your children happy?
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: --what is happiness for our children.
  • CARTER BURDEN: You decide what's happiness to your children?
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: Our children-- they can't talk to themselves.
  • Who's going to talk to them?
  • CARTER BURDEN: By what stage do they begin to talk and think
  • for themselves?
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: Well, I would say--
  • I'm not a-- I would say, from my knowledge of children-- not as
  • an official knowledge.
  • It's a mother's knowledge.
  • I would say, well, they could talk to themselves
  • by the time, when it comes to sexual matters--
  • when it comes to sexual matters?
  • CARTER BURDEN: Well, I think-- no, we're on a more--
  • I think we're on a more general question, frankly.
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: This is what we're discussing.
  • Don't lead me astray.
  • I'm having enough trouble with what we're here for.
  • CARTER BURDEN: No, we're talking about the--
  • AUDIENCE: (Laughter)
  • CARTER BURDEN: Go ahead.
  • I'm sorry.
  • No, you said your only concern is what makes a person happy.
  • Don't you think that maybe one of the real reasons
  • for the so-called generation gap is the fact
  • that a lot of parents think that they
  • know what makes their children happy in a lot of ways?
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: No, the generation gap
  • is because we've been told there's an-- parents haven't
  • argued against it.
  • We've been told there's a generation gap.
  • We've been told it.
  • And what parent is here today?
  • I'm here alone, concerned.
  • The mothers are busy working.
  • They're busy fighting for women's lib,
  • but no one is fighting for the children.
  • No one is saying anything for the children.
  • CARTER BURDEN: Maybe they're fighting in different ways
  • for their children.
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: I can't see it.
  • Not one is here today.
  • I'm the only parent here today.
  • CARTER BURDEN: Maybe they're fighting
  • for what their children want.
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: This is the-- it was in the newspapers,
  • and I found out about it, and not
  • a parent is even here today.
  • How are we fighting for our children?
  • I feel very much alone.
  • I'm talking for every parent, I assure you.
  • Go all over the city.
  • Ask any parent what they would want for their children.
  • CARTER BURDEN: Well, there are about seven or eight parents
  • sitting up here.
  • And I'm a parent.
  • And you're not speaking for me, frankly.
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: Well, you're not a mother.
  • AUDIENCE: (Laughter)
  • COUNCILMAN: Mrs. Spray.
  • Mrs. Spray, how do you know?
  • CARTER BURDEN: You know, men have had a rough time here
  • today and so forth.
  • Are you saying now that fathers are not
  • supposed to be parents, either?
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: Oh, don't give me this equality stuff.
  • A woman is not a man.
  • A man is not a woman.
  • A father is not a mother.
  • A mother-- I'm sick of it.
  • It denies everything that we know
  • instinctively is right in life and correct in life.
  • All this talk, rhetoric, rhetoric, rhetoric, rhetoric,
  • rhetoric covering up the real facts.
  • And we've lost all sign of what the facts are.
  • I don't even know the (unintelligible).
  • CARTER BURDEN: Mrs. Spray.
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: It should be something else.
  • But I'm not a rhetoric person.
  • I'm just moved and I'm saying as a mother and especially
  • because there isn't another mother here today.
  • HEAD COUNCILMAN: Mrs. Spray--
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: I'm very touched by all this.
  • And they should be here in droves.
  • CARTER BURDEN: Mrs. Spray, there is a mother sitting right next
  • to me.
  • HEAD COUNCILMAN: Mrs. Spray--
  • CARTER BURDEN: And another one sitting next to her.
  • HEAD COUNCILMAN: Mrs. Spray, would you
  • respond to a question from Councilman Clingan?
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: If I can.
  • If I can, I will answer it.
  • AUDIENCE: (Laughter)
  • ELDON CLINGAN: Mrs. Spray, one of the things
  • that those of us who are parents know is that children grow up.
  • Don't you-- don't you think that we
  • ought to try to make a kind of world in which all
  • of our children who do grow up have a chance
  • to live healthy and happy and useful lives without,
  • in the case of those who, for whatever reason
  • it happens that they become homosexual,
  • but who become homosexual, but have
  • a world in which they, too, can find ways of being useful
  • and ways of being happy?
  • What do you think?
  • Or do you think that there are some children who
  • have to grow up and who have to grow up
  • into a world in which all of their lives
  • they're going to be held back from getting jobs that they
  • would otherwise qualify for?
  • Kept out of apartments they would otherwise
  • be able to live in?
  • Do you think that's a kind of a world in which you'd
  • want children to grow up?
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: Well, I also think that I
  • wouldn't want my children--
  • no-- what any mother, I think, and perhaps most fathers,
  • want their children to grow up where these minorities hold
  • ways of life mothers and fathers do not want, do not like,
  • would be in a position to indicate
  • the ways of the children of these parents.
  • In other words, I wouldn't want this minority group
  • to grow big and big and big so that it
  • is really powerful in the way of influencing the direction
  • of our children's lives.
  • ELDON CLINGAN: Were you here when Mr. Rubin testified?
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: No.
  • Mr. Rubin?
  • I've been here for hours.
  • ELDON CLINGAN: Mr. Rubin was the school teacher who testified.
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: Yes.
  • ELDON CLINGAN: Did you hear Mr. Rubin's testimony?
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: Yes, but he testified
  • as one of those homosexuals who looks
  • like a man, who talks like a man,
  • and in class, acts like a man.
  • ELDON CLINGAN: I'm told he is a man.
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: And he's a very intelligent man.
  • Intelligent enough to know how he should--
  • but not every homosexual is that intelligent, is
  • that manly-looking, et cetera.
  • You get a homosexual who's not intelligent and doesn't realize
  • the role of parents and child, doesn't realize what
  • the mother might want for the child, but only knows
  • morally, who are they to say?
  • Who is this one to say?
  • Who's the mother to say?
  • She's only a Queens housewife, like one of them said.
  • Middle-class housewife.
  • I'm a middle-class housewife, but I'm a mother.
  • They're very prejudiced.
  • They're prejudiced against me as a middle-class housewife.
  • ELDON CLINGAN: Did you hear any testimony from--
  • did you hear any testimony today from homosexuals
  • who came before us who indicated that they felt
  • that their responsibility as teachers
  • would be to carry on a missionary campaign
  • to make other people homosexuals?
  • Was that the tenor of the testimony you heard?
  • Or was--
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: It's not a missionary--
  • CARTER BURDEN: Or was it really quite the opposite?
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: One is not necessarily a missionary
  • by getting out and saying this and that.
  • You can have much more forceful missionaries who
  • conduct their lives in certain ways,
  • and if there are enough children around to see this way,
  • this is being a missionary.
  • ELDON CLINGAN: Well, now, do you think a man--
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: Everyone is a missionary to children
  • by the way they lead their lives.
  • The children see how-- and you have to be careful
  • what the children see.
  • ELDON CLINGAN: Now, you've indicated
  • that you think Mr. Rubin is probably the kind of man
  • that you would allow to teach if you had your way about it
  • in the school system.
  • Yet--
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: I would feel better, frankly,
  • if a man of Mr. Rubin's age--
  • say he's in his 30s, 40s-- could occasionally
  • say to the children, "My son today said to me,"
  • or "My daughter today--".
  • It must be very artificial for children who are brought up
  • with mothers and fathers and sisters and brothers,
  • never to hear a teacher to talk about it.
  • ELDON CLINGAN: Didn't you ever have a--
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: The daughter--
  • ELDON CLINGAN: --a woman teach you, when you were growing up,
  • who was single--
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: What?
  • ELDON CLINGAN: Didn't you ever have
  • a woman teacher when you were growing up who was single
  • and who couldn't talk about her children?
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: I am sixty-four years of age,
  • so I went to school when teachers
  • weren't even married, when they were old maids and things.
  • And I felt the deprivation.
  • I used to sit there and think, does she have a little girl?
  • Like then the teacher would be forty, fifty years old.
  • And I know somehow she can't have a little girl anymore.
  • Young as I was, maybe seven, I knew that.
  • Imagine, she never had a little girl.
  • Why?
  • Why?
  • And I would long to go up to her and ask her why.
  • And today, in this society, perhaps, a child
  • should go up and get an answer.
  • But we parents must be very concerned with what
  • that answer's going to be.
  • ELDON CLINGAN: Thank you, Mrs. Spray.
  • HEAD COUNCILMAN: Councilman-- wait one minute, Mrs. Spray.
  • You're not finished yet.
  • Councilman Manton would like to ask you a question.
  • THOMAS MANTON: This is true there are many hearings here,
  • and we never hear from the people in Queens
  • or the housewives because usually they
  • don't know about it because they don't follow these things.
  • But partisans of whatever point of view
  • who are organized usually show up for the hearings.
  • And I think it's to your credit that you
  • were able to sit here and take a few hours of your time
  • and come without a prepared text and discuss your gut
  • reaction to this legislation because that's
  • what I was trying to articulate before, that there's
  • a certain instinctive feeling that people have,
  • right or wrong, for what they consider
  • to be a standard or a norm or a normality.
  • And I think that you, perhaps not articulating it as well
  • as a professional speaker might have,
  • have said that you think that there
  • are certain areas or a certain conduct which,
  • while it ought not to be looked upon with disdain,
  • does not reach the level of something that ought to be
  • protected as a civil right.
  • For example, if I'm an alcoholic and yet I'm
  • able to function in my job every day, as many alcoholics do--
  • we think of alcoholics in the myth of the guy
  • that's on the Bowery, but there are many American
  • middle-management alcoholics who function every day--
  • should they come forward next week and add to the litany
  • that we have here before us of sexual orientation, alcoholism,
  • gambling, or whatever other so-called aberration.
  • Maybe that's not the proper word, but deviation, let's say,
  • from what the average people in the country or the society
  • at large consider normal--
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: Please don't say people, say parents.
  • Please just parents because they are fighting for what's
  • best for their children.
  • People are not necessarily--
  • THOMAS MANTON: In other words, what you're
  • saying is that you have a feeling, as a parent--
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: Yes.
  • THOMAS MANTON: --for what you think--
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: Not-- I'm sure if you ask any parents
  • in the world almost, with few exceptions,
  • they would say we don't want certain things--
  • THOMAS MANTON: No, you say you have
  • a feeling of what you think is right or wrong without benefit,
  • perhaps, of philosophy or theology or sociology,
  • that you, as a mature woman, as a parent,
  • instinctively have a feeling, and that's
  • the position you're trying to articulate here.
  • On the other hand, I think you're being fair.
  • You're saying that you didn't come here
  • to condemn homosexuality.
  • Rather, you came here with a positive feeling
  • for your children, or for children.
  • Am I right?
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: Right.
  • THOMAS MANTON: Thank you.
  • HEAD COUNCILMAN: Wait, Mrs. Spray.
  • Mrs. Spray.
  • THOMAS MANTON: You got one more question.
  • HEAD COUNCILMAN: Just one minute.
  • Councilman Burden would like to ask you one final question.
  • CARTER BURDEN: Two more, actually.
  • How would you feel about a married male heterosexual
  • teacher with children who came in the classroom
  • and said, "This is what my mistress told me today,"
  • or, "This is what my girlfriend told me today"?
  • Not just one--
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: I don't see what relevance this has.
  • To what--
  • CARTER BURDEN: Well, you said you thought
  • it would be healthier if a teacher could come in
  • and say, this is what my son said to me today, right?
  • You said earlier in reply to Councilman Clingan's question
  • that it would be healthier, in your opinion, if a teacher can
  • say in the classroom, "Well, this is what my son said
  • to me today," or, "This is what my boy did today,"
  • or something like that.
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: No, I didn't say anything about my son to me.
  • I didn't make any such statement.
  • HEAD COUNCILMAN: That does not--
  • CARTER BURDEN: Well.
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: That I can recall.
  • CARTER BURDEN: What I'm, I suppose,
  • getting at is an individual's own private moral,
  • immoral life, whatever you want to call it,
  • that you feel to inject that into a classroom situation is
  • basically bad for children, if that's--
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: No, I'd say it's not bad
  • as long as it stays private.
  • But when it's no longer private, then it's
  • very harmful because the individual
  • who wants the right to go anywhere and work, at even--
  • as a-- and no longer--
  • I-- the gist-- the thrust of everything
  • by the group that wants this seems to be
  • that we're tired of lying.
  • We're tired of hiding this.
  • It should be accepted.
  • It's right.
  • This is harmful because then it's
  • no longer the private life.
  • It's a very open thing.
  • What's so private about that?
  • CARTER BURDEN: What-- and I think this is an important
  • point, because I think there's an assumption that if you pass
  • this legislation then you're going to have individuals
  • in the classroom who are going to start to--
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: This is a thrust towards a forced legislation
  • to force people not to be able to say,
  • I consider the presence of this person harmful to the children
  • because he is a homosexual.
  • They will no longer be allowed to say that.
  • In fact, they might even be forced to hire him.
  • CARTER BURDEN: Well, the assumption behind that, then,
  • is that the presence of a homosexual is harmful, right?
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: Beg pardon?
  • CARTER BURDEN: You're concerned about that
  • because you believe that that is an accurate point of view.
  • Is that correct?
  • You believe that the ability of the Board of Education
  • to discriminate against homosexuals
  • is justified because a homosexual would
  • be a corrupting influence in the schools.
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: (Sigh) You put me down.
  • As I said before, I'd like to be a little soft.
  • I would say, perhaps, not all homosexuals.
  • But in that instance, where the one who has the right
  • to judge these things in the Board of Education
  • is given that right, will decide that,
  • because of the homosexuality of this person,
  • he would be harmful, he should have a right to say no,
  • I consider you that type of homosexual that will
  • be harmful to the children.
  • CARTER BURDEN: And what kind of homosexual
  • would be harmful to the children?
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: One that is not hiding it.
  • AUDIENCE: (Laughter)
  • HEAD COUNCILMAN: An obvious one?
  • You mean an obvious homosexual?
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: Yes.
  • HEAD COUNCILMAN: An obvious homosexual?
  • CARTER BURDEN: Well, I'd like to try your chicken soup sometime.
  • That's all there is.
  • HEAD COUNCILMAN: In other words, Mrs. Spray, what you're saying
  • is that you would object to a obvious homosexual teaching
  • children in the school.
  • And if this bill were passed, you
  • wouldn't have a right, under the circumstances, to object--
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: Nor would anybody.
  • HEAD COUNCILMAN: --to that type of homosexual.
  • That's the substance of your remark--
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: Yes.
  • HEAD COUNCILMAN: --as I understand it.
  • Is that correct?
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: Right.
  • CARTER BURDEN: Yeah, but what--
  • I mean, you would have every basis
  • to object if, in fact, he were injecting
  • the wrong kind of point of view into his teaching curriculum.
  • I mean, if he were preaching an established religion,
  • you would have a grounds for objecting to him.
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: Well, I--
  • CARTER BURDEN: Or indeed, if he were an incompetent teacher,
  • you would have the grounds for objecting to him.
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: I feel that no area of life, morals
  • or otherwise, is their perfection.
  • Therefore, I'd say, if a homosexual isn't overtly one,
  • well, let's take a chance.
  • Let's give him-- he's alone with the children.
  • Nobody knows-- we know he's a homosexual.
  • What he says to those children, we don't know.
  • But well, nothing-- we'll take a risk--
  • CARTER BURDEN: So that's completely
  • inconsistent with your point of view about if it's hidden,
  • it's alright.
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: I think if we could be rigid--
  • you can't be rigid about everything.
  • But if it were possible to be rigid about anything
  • without being somewhat cruel, I would say the danger
  • to the children is too great because this individual was
  • all alone with the children and we don't know
  • what his influence might be.
  • We know he's a--
  • if we don't know, well-- but when
  • we know it, for a parent knowingly to say yes to this
  • is not right.
  • But how far can we go in demanding anything?
  • I'm willing to compromise.
  • Let it at least not be an overt homosexual.
  • Let them not have the right to say, I'm a homosexual.
  • I'm wanted.
  • I'm here, and what are you going to do about it?
  • And I'm with the children.
  • And I'm where I want to be.
  • I would also say that, in any restaurant where families come
  • to any great extent, many children,
  • it's not the thing to have a lot of them around.
  • CARTER BURDEN: Why?
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: Because.
  • CARTER BURDEN: You must have little confidence
  • in your children to think that they're going--
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: Apparently--
  • CARTER BURDEN: --to be influenced by a--
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: --sometime in a child's life,
  • it would seem to me, he has to make
  • the choice of which direction his sexual life will take.
  • He has to make that choice.
  • And for the greatest happiness of the child,
  • I think any parent would say the choice should
  • be that one in which he will have children.
  • We who have children know the joy of it.
  • You're going to say there are who aren't happy
  • and all those arguments, but these people, most of them
  • will never know that joy.
  • I don't want that for my child.
  • And I don't want those influences around him
  • what might want him to make a choice which
  • would lead to such a thing.
  • CARTER BURDEN: Well, if you're excluding the alternative,
  • there's not much of a choice.
  • But secondly, aren't you then assuming
  • that a homosexual life is so compellingly appealing
  • that you're afraid of how attractive
  • that choice would be?
  • I mean, is that the way you feel about it?
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: It seems that--
  • well, I speak only from a parent's point of view.
  • I'm only a high school graduate, and that's night high school,
  • so I don't have great knowledge.
  • But what we parents who live with children could sometimes
  • feel and know things, if you'd only listen to us.
  • It's become the thing now not to listen to parents.
  • And yet you don't know what morals is.
  • You don't know what this is.
  • You don't know-- don't know--
  • from us, you might get a little information
  • that would help you decide these moral matters.
  • What was your question again?
  • When I get carried away, I forget the question.
  • CARTER BURDEN: I was just saying that you're assuming there
  • that somebody else is going to be infinitely more persuasive,
  • or at least that that particular lifestyle is so much more
  • compellingly attractive to every youngster
  • that they can't help but make that decision.
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: Well, one of the things a parent has to do
  • is learn something about sex and sex deviation.
  • And I've read and read and read.
  • And I have a son-in-law who's going to be a doctor.
  • And I asked his opinion.
  • And from what I could gather, it would
  • seem that a human being can express
  • his sexuality in many ways.
  • Possible for every individual to--
  • but which is the way society wants?
  • Which is the way which will lead to greatest happiness?
  • Therefore, we must suggest the direction.
  • We must point the direction.
  • We parents must insist on a direction.
  • CARTER BURDEN: Well, you're always
  • going to be able to do that, right?
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: And that direction, that's what
  • would lead to the greatest happiness for our children.
  • A happiness which will include youngsters
  • in their lives, which will include family.
  • A family life is completely out in this sexual direction.
  • And where in all of living creatures
  • do you find even a consideration of leaving this out?
  • I mean--
  • CARTER BURDEN: You feel it's most
  • important for your children--
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: In that sense, I consider it
  • a great abnormality.
  • CARTER BURDEN: You feel that it's
  • important for your children to be able to make a choice,
  • right?
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: No, I have to guide them toward the choice.
  • This is a role of a mother.
  • I have to guide them towards the choice they're going to make.
  • A child has to be guided.
  • CARTER BURDEN: Mrs. Spray, I think
  • you're about as inconsistent as mothers tend to be.
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: And society has to help
  • the parents guide the child in those directions
  • that the parents want.
  • Not that a lawyer wants and this group wants
  • and women's lib wants, but the direction the parents want.
  • Society has to help us.
  • And it's not helping us.
  • It's forgetting that we exist, we parents.
  • And it's making our children forget that we exist.
  • HEAD COUNCILMAN: Mrs. Spray, you're going to be, I think,
  • the longest speaker before this council because Councilman
  • Greitzer wants to ask you a question now.
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: If I can.
  • I'm sure somewhere someone's going to ask something,
  • and I'll just say, sorry.
  • CAROL GREITZER: I don't think I'm
  • going to ask you a question.
  • I wanted to say something because you
  • seemed to be concerned that you were
  • the only mother in the room.
  • I have a child in the eighth grade
  • and I wanted to say something about school because I have had
  • lots of problems with teachers.
  • And I say that I've been more critical of more than, say,
  • fifty percent of the teachers that my child has had.
  • They have been incompetent or mean or uninspiring or boring.
  • And for all of these reasons, I have been very angry
  • at a lot of these teachers and the system.
  • And I believe that, on occasion, one or two
  • have been homosexual.
  • But I have had no problems with them on that score.
  • And it certainly has never entered
  • into the learning situation or any other aspect of schooling.
  • I mean, I consider that the other things having
  • to do with pedagogical subjects are really the things
  • that parents ought to be concerned about, mainly,
  • in terms of--
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: You speak of one or two.
  • But the thrust of this bill--
  • CAROL GREITZER: Well, I only have one child.
  • SYLVIA SPRAY: --is to not make it one or two.
  • To make it six, eight, ten, fifteen, half the school,
  • three-quarters of the school, a large portion of the school.
  • You speak of one or two, fine.
  • We have no perfection in this society.
  • One or two, what can we do?
  • Three or four, what can we do? ten or twelve, what can we do?
  • But twenty, forty, sixty, hundreds, half the school,
  • three-quarters the school--
  • HEAD COUNCILMAN: Mrs. Spray, thank you very much.
  • You've been most helpful to the members of this committee
  • in your dissertation before us.
  • Thank you very much.
  • (Applause)
  • BRUCE JEWELL: That was a segment of the Intro 475 hearings held
  • in New York City last year.
  • And it was recorded by WBAI in New York City.
  • I have been requested to say hello to the Auburn
  • Queens from Sandra.
  • So hello.
  • BOB CRYSTAL: That's the only kind of requests we do.
  • Usually we choose the music for these programs beforehand.
  • So just because that's a request that we've done,
  • don't expect us to be able to run out and get a record
  • and play it for you.
  • However, if there are any queens in Attica
  • or anywhere else that somebody wants us to say hello to,
  • we'd be very glad to.
  • We know that quite a few people in Auburn Prison
  • listen to this program.
  • So this is a very logical request.
  • We have a few announcements.
  • The Transvestites and Transsexuals Unite,
  • a new group in Rochester, is being
  • organized with the help of the Gay Alliance of the Genesee
  • Valley.
  • For information and membership organizational meeting
  • information, call 244-8640 and leave a message for Ken.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Is this open to both heterosexual and
  • homosexual transvestites and transsexuals?
  • BOB CRYSTAL: I believe so.
  • Ken just told me that it was transvestites and transsexuals.
  • Obviously, if it's for transsexuals,
  • it's for before and after.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: I guess that's everybody.
  • OK.
  • BOB CRYSTAL: Also, there is a meeting this Sunday of the Gay
  • Alliance, and that will be at 7:30 at 713 Monroe Avenue,
  • over the co-op.
  • And I don't know what the meeting topic is,
  • but it's sure to be interesting.
  • The Gay Alliance also offers counseling.
  • And you can call the same number, 244-8640,
  • either to talk with a peer counselor
  • or to arrange an appointment.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: You're sure those programs are
  • sure to be interesting?
  • We must go to different meetings.
  • BOB CRYSTAL: I'm going to be at it.
  • I'm going to make sure that it's interesting.
  • And if it isn't, I will answer to everyone.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: OK.
  • BOB CRYSTAL: I'm responsible for the interest.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: OK.
  • I think that's about it for this evening.
  • Next week we will have--
  • we're going to interrupt the series on Intro 475
  • in order to bring you our live recordings of the gay pride
  • week march.
  • BOB CRYSTAL: I'd like to congratulate WCMF.
  • They are going to be the only radio station to carry a news
  • story that was very important.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: OK.
  • And so until then--
  • that's not next week.
  • That's the week after next.
  • Coming up now is Robbie Basho, "The Grail and the Lotus."
  • (Music playing)