Video Interview, Arlisha Massey and Barbara Turner, April 15, 2013

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.

So the first two questions are really easy.

Just need you to give me the correct spelling

of your first and last name.

ARLISHA MASSEY: Arlisha Massey.

A-R-L-I-S-H-A Last name is M-A-S-S-E-Y.

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.

And I need a specific title that we want on screen for you.

You know.

ARLISHA MASSEY: I can't think of one.

KEVIN INDOVINO: And Barbara, I need

you to give me the correct spelling

of your first and last name.

BARBARA TURNER: Barbara Turner B-A-R-B-A-R-A T-U-R-N-E-R.

And my title would be Manager of--

Manager of Prevention--

Programming, Prevention and Services for the Mocha Center

of Rochester.

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.

Alisha, just started with you for a second.

You-- I want to start before Mocha.

Because you were working with AIDS Rochester--

ARLISHA MASSEY: Right.

KEVIN INDOVINO: --before that.

Right?

ARLISHA MASSEY: Right.

KEVIN INDOVINO: And I'm getting a sense of things

that you probably experienced at AIDS Rochester was part of what

was then brought over to Mocha?

ARLISHA MASSEY: Yeah.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So talk to me a little bit

about working with AIDS in Rochester

and the kind of things that you were seeing there,

specifically when it comes to communities

of color and the AIDS epidemic.

Because eventually I want move towards how we got into Mocha.

ARLISHA MASSEY: Well, when I first started out

with AIDS Rochester, it was--

I was doing community outreach.

And I saw that most of the people that we were reaching

were not people of color.

But me being in the lifestyle but being kind of closeted,

I was like, wait a minute.

If I know where to go find men that are on the DL then

we should use these tools out in the field.

So I came up with suggestions of let's go

behind the Greyhound bus station.

We know that where male hustlers are.

Let's walk down Monroe Avenue.

Let's start handing out condoms.

Initially, they were reluctant to take the condoms.

We'll just take cigarettes with us.

They'll take the cigarette, hey, how about a condom?

Oh, I don't need any.

Give them to your friends.

And so after doing that I said, we really,

really need to take this a little further

into our community.

And that's we ended up flowing into Mocha.

KEVIN INDOVINO: I want to just explore that a little bit more

before we get into Mocha.

The resistance among the community of color.

You know, not only the stigma of being gay and not,

you know, there's a whole stigma there more so

in the communities of color than the Caucasian community.

Talk to me a little bit about that.

Talk to me just about trying to break through those barriers.

ARLISHA MASSEY: Well, the biggest barrier

that I think religion.

Because most community of colors,

as what I've experienced, you know, growing up, it's a taboo.

You know, being a homosexual is totally you're going to hell.

You can hang it up.

So that was it.

So a lot of people of color they just they

didn't want to be associated in any way with homosexuality.

Because one, you're going to get backlash from the community

in general, two, the religious community, you know,

if you're a part of one.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Gotcha.

OK.

I'm gonna ask you the same question.

Now, what you said was great, but be careful not

to do this on the microphone.

ARLISHA MASSEY: Oh.

I forgot about (laughs)--

I forgot the microphone I just talk with my hands a lot.

KEVIN INDOVINO: It's OK.

Yeah.

So set it up for me again.

Particularly in the communities of color

there was this stigma that you had

to break through particularly because

of the religious aspects in that.

ARLISHA MASSEY: Yeah.

I think that the religious barrier was one of the biggest,

you know, especially people of color that

come from a religious community, or a community of faith.

And you don't want to be associated

in any way with homosexuality, or that lifestyle.

So you're hiding behind that.

And then-- I'm losing my train of thought. (laughs)

KEVIN INDOVINO: That's OK.

We'll just take a break.

ARLISHA MASSEY: All right.

Let's go back to that one.

Wait.

Go to another one.

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.

There was something upon in your first response

that I want to explore a little bit.

You know, when you were approaching

these I'm assuming mostly guys behind the bus station

and going down Monroe Avenue or whatever,

trying to hand out condoms, they were saying,

oh, we don't need them.

Where did that mentality come from?

Where were they not getting the message

that there's this-- this thing out there

that's gonna kill them.

ARLISHA MASSEY: They didn't think it would affect them.

This is a white man's disease.

BARBARA TURNER: It's a gay disease.

ARLISHA MASSEY: And it's a gay disease.

And it's, oh, I don't need a condom.

I'm just messing with my girl.

If I get a condom, guess what, my girl gonna know I'm

up to something.

You know.

So as a result, we'd engage with men.

And a lot of it was because money exchanged hands.

But then they figure, ah, I don't need it.

He's just giving me a blow job.

I don't need a condom.

Or it's the heat of the moment, if they don't have the condom,

they don't care about it.

However, if it's the heat of the moment and you got a condom,

chances are you're going to pull it out and use it.

KEVIN INDOVINO: I'm gonna move to you for a second.

Talk about this same kind of issue.

I want to talk a little bit about maybe the those first--

when did you start with Mocha?

Let me ask you that.

BARBARA TURNER: When did I start with Mocha?

Oh, gosh.

It had to be 15 years ago, 10 - 15 years ago.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So those first years

when you were arriving in Mocha can you

talk to me about, again, the same kind of barriers

and challenges that you had to deal with in reaching out

to a community of color?

BARBARA TURNER: Well, when I first began working with Mocha

I began working with the youth.

The GAGV had a joint grant to increase the capacity

of young people of color.

And they had a hard time finding a lesbian

to co-facilitate this group.

So that became my involvement.

I had an involvement with the GAGV,

and they knew of me, having been a mental health professional.

So I was recruited at that time to co-facilitate these groups.

The challenge that we had, again, like Arlisha

said, a lot of the kids were from faith backgrounds.

And therefore, they didn't believe--

they believe that whatever happened to them they deserved.

So therefore, I'm not worthy of using a condom

because I'm already gay.

My preacher told me I'm going to go to hell.

So why should I protect myself?

I deserve anything I get.

So we had to start working with them from the inside out.

You know, letting them know that they were worthy of living,

that there were other faiths out there that would embrace them

for who they were.

And then start teaching them how to negotiate.

Once we taught them that they were worthy

of it, of being safe, then we had

to teach them negotiation skills with condoms,

and how to negotiate with their partners, or people

they were having sex with.

KEVIN INDOVINO: I'm gonna go back to Arlisha here.

So at some point when you were AIDS Rochester you--

a light bulb went off says there is

this segment of our population that needs a little bit

more attention.

We need to figure out different ways of reaching out to them.

Can you tell me about when you finally

realized that we have to find different ways of reaching

the community of color here, and how that moved

into then the develop of Mocha.

ARLISHA MASSEY: Try that again.

KEVIN INDOVINO: I threw a lot at you.

ARLISHA MASSEY: Yeah.

And I had a lot going on in my mind about to speak out on.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Let's just review a little bit then.

At what point did you realize that you

were going to need to reach the communities of color

in regards to AIDS education and prevention in different ways

than how we were doing it in mainstream society?

ARLISHA MASSEY: I figured we'd have to--

the light bulb went on in my head

when I got to thinking about my own closeted life.

I wasn't out.

I wasn't-- I just didn't feel good about being out based

on my religious upbringing and so on and so forth.

And so I got to thinking, how did I meet these guys?

And I remember I met a lot of my so-called straight guys

in straight clubs.

You know, but they were on the down low, as we called it

back in the days.

I remember I'm out by the bus station.

I see somebody.

Mm.

They give me the eye.

I give them the eye.

And it's just nonverbal communication

and you go from there.

So I put--

I took my own experience and I said, look,

this is how we have to approach it.

And one of the ways I approached it

was go to some of the straight bars during off peak hours,

speaking with the bar manager saying, hey, how about

if we take a container.

I'll bring a container down.

We'll put condoms in, free, no charge to you.

We'll do it on a slow night.

You know, if you're busiest nights Thursday, Friday,

and Saturday, we'll come in on Thursday,

fill up the bowl with condoms.

And we won't come around.

Just certain holidays we will come and do a big condom blitz,

where all of us come out and we hand

out condoms about five minutes.

Then we'll take off out the bar.

And that went over well.

I would go back once a week to refill the condoms.

And at first, it's lower, lower, lower.

Then they're completely empty, where

I had the bar owners calling me hey,

you need to come fill up your condom bowls.

So that's the approach that I took.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Can you talk to me about some

of the initial reaction again?

You know, about going out to the bars

and trying to talk to these people,

hey, you know, we're just not giving you free condoms

for the hell of it here.

You know, we're trying to save your lives.

Again, you know, what was the reaction from the communities,

from the bar owners but more so from the patrons.

ARLISHA MASSEY: Initially, from the patrons

there was a bit of a pull back.

I don't want to hear about that faggot stuff.

And you know, I was literally getting that kind

of communication back to me.

So then we decided, OK, let's just not--

if they ask us questions then we'll answer the questions,

you know, best we could.

So again, we decided to put informational packets

in with the condoms.

So when they're alone, by themselves, buddy's not around,

they can read and go, oh, this could happen to me.

So I thought that was the easiest approach.

And once we started doing that nonverbal communication

with them, just handed them out the condoms.

And we would even take holidays like, let's say Easter,

and we'd actually put the condoms in an egg,

a plastic egg with informational packet, hand it out.

It was much easier.

They feel like oh, everyone's getting it.

So they're not just focus on me.

Even though inside they might go, oh, I am on the DL.

Why are they focusing on me?

So when we take five or six outreach workers

and we just have on the same t-shirt or sweatshirt,

we fan the bar, handing everyone out these condoms disguised

in little eggs or whatever.

It was more receptive.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So let's move a little bit--

and I'm not (unintelligible) but--

but let's get to the--

that initial idea of--

of Mocha, where-- and I'm a little ignorant on this.

I'm not sure if it came from Gary English initially

or how that worked out.

Because we're hoping to eventually also interview

Gary, if we can get him up here.

But talk to me about the development of Mocha.

That there came this idea it's like, no

but we need an organization for men of color.

BARBARA TURNER: Think you have to go back to Brother's Keeper.

ARLISHA MASSEY: Yeah.

Or Brothers United.

BARBARA TURNER: You have to start Brothers United.

So you have to go back to Brothers United.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So tell me about that.

Tell me about--

ARLISHA MASSEY: I wasn't--

I was in Brothers United, but not heavily involved.

I had actually--

KEVIN INDOVINO: Let's start at the beginning.

Tell me what Brothers United is.

ARLISHA MASSEY: OK.

Brothers United was an organization

I guess started by Charles Stevens and Gary English.

It was just a bunch of gay guys that

identified with each other.

I would get together on the weekends,

play cards, have different discussions.

And then it became more of an organized--

not as organized as Mocha eventually became--

but as a maybe once a month meeting.

And they would come up with different ideas on how

we can service our community.

They've got AIDS Rochester.

We have nothing.

What can we do?

And then from Brothers United Gary English

came up with the idea of Mocha.

Wasn't the name of it yet.

I'll take credit for that.

But I'll tell you that later.

But we-- so Gary kept floating these ideas

in his living room over I think on Sanford Street or somewhere.

And I'm like, you've lost your mind.

I'm not doing it.

I'm not doing it.

I'm not doing it.

I'm with AIDS Rochester and I'm fine with that.

So Gary kept expressing, but they're not doing anything

for the community of color.

And I'm like, OK, Gary, I'll meet with you.

So we met a few times.

And then I eventually brought it to the attention

of an individual over at AIDS Rochester who--

they were supportive but they wanted

it to be ran by AIDS Rochester.

They didn't want it independent.

You know, they figured we'd did it, if it's independent,

the funding's going to be taken away from AIDS Rochester

and go toward people of color.

So that's--

BARBARA TURNER: Gary was a CHN at the time.

He was working with the nurse-- one of the nurses support

agencies.

And he saw really a service gap at the time.

And he saw when he cared for men of color

that were HIV positive, and at that state

the disease progressed very quickly.

There was no support for them unless they

wanted to go to AIDS Rochester and be

treated as a gay white man.

And that indeed wasn't the case.

They had different needs.

So that's where Gary really saw the need

to pull together some support for men

of color, which started through a social aspect

with Charles Stephens.

And then they embraced others.

But I think during the time Gary always

wanted a more organized health service

aspect to it, where Charles wanted

a more social aspect to it.

And I think that's what led to the division

of the organization, where Mocha started.

KEVIN INDOVINO: You hit on something I

want to explore a little bit.

Men of color who were HIV positive or full

blown AIDS not getting what they need from AIDS Rochester

because there's a different need.

Talk to me.

What's different about the needs?

BARBARA TURNER: There's different psychosocial needs.

We come from a community that does not embrace--

well, still does not embrace people who are HIV positive--

but at that time, did not at all.

I mean, people--

I remember having friends living at the AIDS Rochester apartment

complex and having people die.

And their family members still not even wanting

to say that they died from AIDS.

And I remember my friend who was of color say, at this point,

what does it matter?

You know, we're all in the same boat living here.

But the stigma that was attached with it, where

you were literally isolated.

ARLISHA MASSEY: And the name itself,

the name AIDS Rochester had a stigma.

Didn't want see you.

A person of color see you there, oh, my God the church

is gonna know about it.

Oh, my God.

Everybody at the club is going to know about it.

So that name itself was a taboo in the community.

KEVIN INDOVINO: I'm just in my mind

trying to figure out the best way

to ask this question about Mocha stepping

in there to fill the gap.

I want to kind of get a sense of how

they thought they were gonna do that when

there were such this--

the stigma, this barrier, how

did Mocha-- you know, the development of Mocha and Gary

and you guys say, this is how we can start breaking

through some of these barriers.

ARLISHA MASSEY: Go ahead.

BARBARA TURNER: I think the first thing

they did was have people that looked like the population

they were trying to reach, giving them messages.

And that's what Arlisha was talking-- attesting to.

Having people passing out condoms talking

to you about safe sex who look like you, who might have been

on the DL, who might integrate into the normal black

community, what we consider to be normal,

the mainstream black community that you might see them

at bars, but also they're engaging

with same sex behavior.

ARLISHA MASSEY: And also we took the social aspect of it

and came up with kind of the programming.

What I mean, is like let's say for instance, in our community

we love playing spades.

OK.

We're going to have a spade's night tonight.

We talk.

We just play cards.

And then we start talking about the issues slowly.

And eventually, everyone is engaging in that.

You know, so we love to play volleyball.

We would get up the volleyball net.

I don't know if you were ever part of that.

We would take a Saturday or Sunday, go out play volleyball,

sit at the picnic table.

Everyone bring something, sit at the picnic table.

We'd start talking, you know, having a dialogue.

It seemed informal, but they're getting the message.

So now when we start different programs

we invite people to different things.

You know, there's a social aspect of it.

So they like that.

But they know there's a purpose for this.

BARBARA TURNER: And another thing Gary

would do is have a barbecue every summer

and invite everyone.

And he would refuse to have people pay.

It had to be free because one of the things,

realizing that food, basics, economics,

you know, basic needs of people to eat.

They needed to come at the same time.

You provide testing.

And you provide information.

And this is something we still do to Mocha to this day,

that we're getting ready to start planning for now,

is our annual picnic, or summer cookout that we have.

But that was another way that he always insisted

that there was food, and plenty of food there,

for people when they had programming.

Because if a person could not eat then

they weren't going to get the information

to take better care of themselves

or to protect themselves with a condom.

So just believing in the basic needs that, you know--

ARLISHA MASSEY: And another thing I want to add to kind of.

With Mocha, we had to come up with a name.

Because I don't even think we were named at the time.

And so we brainstormed and we brainstormed.

I got laughed at so many different names.

So one night literally, this is about 3:00 in the morning,

it clicked in my head, Mocha, Men of Color Health Awareness

Project.

Mocha, that's like a creamy, brown color.

So you'd mix the lightest of the black people,

or the brown people, and the dark as you mix

it up, it's mocha now.

And it doesn't have that stereotype of AIDS Rochester.

You know, so most people just thought

we were a social group initially,

until they got involved.

And then we would have people come, oh,

is Mocha doing anything this year?

Oh, is Mocha having anything down there?

Where's Mocha new location?

You know so it caught.

And it grew to Barb.

Go ahead.

KEVIN INDOVINO: This is gonna be a two part question.

Again, at the very beginnings of starting up that group, Mocha,

can you talk to me about some of the challenges?

Financial challenges, or community awareness,

you know, trying to get the the community to really embrace

this organization?

ARLISHA MASSEY: Well, I tell you we didn't have a lot of money.

And I didn't know the ins and outs

of starting an organization, even though I

worked for AIDS Rochester.

I was just an outreach worker.

I didn't know the in and outs of everything.

We left Gary with the business head to do that.

But we only started out with a $50,000 grant.

And I think most of that covered salaries, majority of it

initially.

And so it was a lot of volunteer work, a lot of volunteer.

I put a lot of volunteer hours in.

Because I was starting to really,

really understand and like the cause that I'm working toward,

or to work toward.

KEVIN INDOVINO: When did--

I want that kind of defining moment

where you guys kind of looked at what you were doing

and you realized, yeah, we started up something really,

not only good, but something necessary.

You know, when did you know that this group was a success?

ARLISHA MASSEY: When we met with the manager of the grant, Tim.

You remember Tim?

He was an ex-priest.

BARBARA TURNER: Tim Morris?

ARLISHA MASSEY: Tim Morris.

BARBARA TURNER: From Center for--

Center for Independent Living.

He was the Executive Director of Center for Independent Living.

ARLISHA MASSEY: And when I--

he gave us a speech, telling us what a great job--

and when I saw tears in his eyes, it hit it for me.

I said, wow, somebody else other than us understands.

And they're not of color.

And that was the defining moment for me.

BARBARA TURNER: And I think when Gary also,

when he teamed up with Sue Cowell

and that led to Pat Cory Doniger.

It was in his meeting with Pat Cory Doniger

and they sat and developed the Many Men Many Voices,

which is behavioral intervention that is now called the DEBI.

And is recognized by the CDC and in their curriculum

of behavioral interventions for effective--

for reaching men who have sex with men.

And it is now a national model.

But when that-- the development of that

really realized that they were really on to something.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Is there any memorable stories--

without giving names or specific details--

working with a client, working with youth or something,

that really kind of dawned in you says,

yeah, we're really doing important work here?

ARLISHA MASSEY: Oh.

Oh, yes.

The very first time when we were doing a notification-- back

then, I don't know if they still do it,

we'd actually go after we've tested

and it come back positive, we would actually go and deliver,

it has to be in twos, deliver the results.

And there was this particular young man

that he just thought his life was over.

And I stayed there for about five hours.

I wouldn't leave until I was sure that he was OK.

And And it was tough on me, it really

was, to see this grown man cry, thinking his life is over.

And I'm like, wow, how many others never even find out

until the end?

Then I have a humorous one I'll tell you later.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Barb, with you, I mean--

BARBARA TURNER: I think--

KEVIN INDOVINO: --is there that moment where you realized,

and I'm sure there's many, but where you realized yeah,

what I'm doing here is--

is an important work to do?

BARBARA TURNER: When I was doing youth group,

10 years ago, when we were in Sibley Tower.

That's where Mocha had the first location,

their first independent location in Sibley Tower.

And we were doing the monthly, or excuse me,

the weekly youth groups.

And listening to youth, seeing youth interact

with one another, being themselves,

seeing youth come into my group as one gender,

going to the bathroom and coming back

and me not recognizing them, because they

were another gender when they returned from the bathroom.

But having that space, where they can express that

and do that.

And then at the same time, listening to them in group.

And I really didn't realize this,

that when they saw each other on the street,

they still weren't able to acknowledge each other,

even though they were sisters in the group,

they were brothers in the group.

They shared these common experiences.

But when they were in the street with their friends

they would not--

they would tell me they would nod to each other,

or give each other some type of acknowledgment.

But they still would not speak to one another.

At that time, I realized how important

that space was of Mocha, for them to have that place

to collectively come together and be who they naturally are.

Because it's still-- they weren't

able to express that in their everyday lives

out and walking through midtown plaza at that time,

or wherever they may be.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Just have to deal with it.

So let's jump forward 15, 20 years.

When did Mocha start?

BARBARA TURNER: Was it '90?

Or was it--

ARLISHA MASSEY: '92?

No.

It was in the 90s, early 90s.

'92 or '93, I don't know specifically.

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.

So I want to talk about Mocha today and the kind of work

that you're doing there.

Has things changed?

Are the barriers still there within the community?

BARBARA TURNER: Oh.

As things are now we still have barriers reaching out

to the community.

We still-- well, we still have barriers

with the African-American community.

We're allowed at the table now, but as long as we don't

talk too much about what we do.

You know?

But at the same token, people in the community

are seeing the need for Mocha.

We're being asked to speak more.

We're being asked to be part of the larger stream representing

as we organize and move forward.

Working with the young adults, we're

seeing they're able to express themselves.

We have seen a lot of gender identity changing.

They're being able to express their gender identity now,

both in the office and out of the office.

And we're able to give them that support

and steer them in the direction that they

need to be steered in.

So I'm very excited about that.

The work that we're doing we have a tremendous amount

of support groups at Mocha.

We're doing interventions.

Again, our numbers are extremely high for men of color

who are same sex practicing.

But we have several interventions

that we're now starting to focus on to address these needs.

And Mocha has gone from the name change.

We're no longer Men of Color Health Awareness Project.

We are now the Mocha center, which

is more inclusive of the whole community of Rochester.

So not just focusing on men, we're focusing on lesbians.

We have a focus on transgender.

And our center is open to everyone.

And our services are more reflective of that.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Let's expand on that a little bit.

Let's talk about that evolution in Mocha and where it is today.

And why it's important to evolve beyond just the men that

are on the down low.

BARBARA TURNER: Yeah.

We had to expand past the men on the down low,

even though that still is a big segment of the population

that we are still trying to reach out to.

And it is still it's difficult for us.

And in doing that, we have to go to mainstream

African-American bars and places where

we feel as though they attend.

But in order to be inclusive in the community of Rochester

and adapt our programming as such,

we really needed to focus.

We've had much more of a youth focus

because that's where we saw the biggest growing

number of the population.

And so we adapted as such.

And our grant have allowed us to adapt as such.

ARLISHA MASSEY: Now, even though I'm not with Mocha,

I've got to say about my evolving

I've seen a big change in--

not a huge change, but a change in the community

in general's perception of a lot of transgender.

I'm actually seeing transgender people

working in mainstream areas that I've seen at Mocha events.

I'm like, wow, you've got that much confidence to go just how

you are and apply for that job. .

And I see them and they're just as happy.

And I'm sure their coworkers are more accepting

than they probably were--

because they're accepting of themselves.

Because they've got that confidence that, you know,

confidence building that you guys do at the Mocha Center.

BARBARA TURNER: And African Queens

was our support group for transgender men

to women, which I think that allowed that to happen.

Yeah.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, it's interesting

that you mentioned that because there's

that one character on Glee now, the African-American gentleman

who's transgender.

And you know, and it's just it's accepted.

ARLISHA MASSEY: Yeah.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Which kind of brings me to the question.

I'm going way back and I'm--

I don't remember the date on this,

but I think it probably predates Mocha.

But you know, when Magic Johnson came out

that he's HIV positive.

Did any of you remember that moment

and the impact it may have had on the kind of work

that you guys were doing?

I think it did predate Mocha.

ARLISHA MASSEY: It was even prior to me

working at AIDS Rochester.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.

OK.

It just-- his name popped up in my head.

And was like, I wonder if that had anything--

BARBARA TURNER: Well, I was working in mental health

at the field.

And I had a lot of friends that were working

at AIDS Rochester at the time.

But it just really gave a face--

I mean, as was Rock Hudson gave a face to the disease--

when Magic Johnson came out and said that he was HIV positive,

it gave a face to the African-American community.

Because no longer was this a gay white disease.

It showed that African-Americans can indeed,

if you're not protected, heterosexual African-Americans

can as well, contract the virus.

So it didn't-- him coming out with that did quite a bit

for the community, and still does.

You know, it still does.

As far as medication adherence, you

know, that you can live a long time with the virus

if you take care of yourself and you adhere to your medications.

So he is a testimony to all that.

And life doesn't stop.

Because it used to be a death sentence.

KEVIN INDOVINO: You're in an interesting position

because you're a lesbian woman of color

dealing with what initially was an organization for men

of color--

And talk to me about that.

Because I'm not sure where I'm going

with this but particularly within communities of color,

the women are the anchors.

And the women are the driving force in those communities.

And I think there's a connection there with the kind of work

that you're doing for this organization,

I'm assuming other women as well.

You know, when it finally came to light

that we have to do with this issue with men of color,

how did you get involved with it?

What was it that drew you to that particular community need?

BARBARA TURNER: Again, like I told you,

I was approached by GAGV when they did not

have an out lesbian of color.

I think how I become involved in everything in this community

is because I'm out and of color.

And there's always been a need for it

and the lack of visibility as far as black lesbians.

You know, so my visibility is what has involved me

in a lot of causes and a lot of boards

and a lot of involvement in the gay community.

But also my personal relationships,

my personal relationship with Gary.

And then my personal relationship

with other HIV positive men that have since passed and gone on

has really involved me in the Rays of Hope conference.

My personal involvement with Sharon Haskins,

who has gone on, has kept me involved and engaged

in this field.

And I believe also what keeps me involved

now is seeing the positive that we've done, seeing now the kids

that I worked with in youth group 10 years ago,

or that are now 30 years old, and are working

in professional positions, and are doing

great things in our community.

Also, the need is still there, seeing these high numbers

that people are not protecting themselves.

Women being the anchoring force, as you said, in this I think,

because I'm a little bit older, and I do have a lot of history

with the organization, I'm a parent

and I have a child who was involved with the Mocha groups

in the early days, who even though my daughter is

heterosexual, she had two-- she has two moms.

So it put her in a very unique position, where she could--

she was a child of two gay moms.

And so-- and so I do have the parental-ish type

of feeling too.

So when people do come to me, and the young adults now

come to me, I think they feel as though they

are getting very authentic and accurate information.

And to them, that's important.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Kind of jumping all over place

here but when we you were talking about particularly

early on reaching men of color, trying

to get to the men that are on the down low, get them condoms,

and get them information.

It would seem to me that getting to the women of those community

and getting them educating would be also another way of breaking

through those barriers.

I'm assuming that's kind of what had happened, that you

guys went down that road.

Or I could be totally wrong.

ARLISHA MASSEY: No.

I wouldn't say we really approached the women

in the community.

Because again, like you said, the women

are anchor in a community of color in most cases.

But it's usually backed by religion and that's the thing.

So to go to a woman--

let's say me, as a man of, you know, gay man of color--

I go and I want to talk to a woman about what's

going on in her son's life.

If they're backed by religion, they're

going be like, get out of my face.

You're sinning.

You're not going to put that corruption in my child's mind.

You know.

So I think that's why--

well, that would be one of the reasons

why I wouldn't approach the anchor women--

KEVIN INDOVINO: I was kind of thinking

in terms of, OK, this guy that's on the down low is also

sleeping with this woman.

If we can get that woman educated and protect her son.

ARLISHA MASSEY: We initially, in my days of Mocha,

when we started, I guess that's when we met up with Barb,

I think.

And you advocated for dental dams and so on.

So then we started actually in the bars

as we'd do an outreach with the condoms we

were given dental dams, female condoms, you know.

So if the guy don't want to do it, she had a choice.

And she didn't have to use his condom.

She can use her condom.

BARBARA TURNER: Usually, it's very difficult

in the African-American community--

I worked for another agency, which

was a heterosexual sexual of color prevention agency.

And I would give talks to younger black women.

And you know, the term is, well, I don't need it.

My man's not cheating.

My man's not doing it.

My man better not be.

Well, I would immediately call my friend who

worked for the county of Monroe Health Department

and ask her what were the stats last month for chlamydia,

gonorrhea, and HIV?

And write it on the board as we were speaking.

And like, this is the community that we live in.

And this is what's going on.

So who do you think is getting all these things, you know?

And I would have to start with the numbers

and then work my way backwards.

But still, you know, in a community

it's a double edged sword.

Because from an African-American standpoint, men are known--

or it's acceptable to a certain extent for African-American men

to be promiscuous.

But then you're dealing with the African-American woman who

says, well, that's not my man.

Well, it's somebody's man.

So it is very hard.

And then if you do approach your man with the condom,

then you're giving the-- you're giving him

a mixed message that he's either being promiscuous,

or heaven forbid, if you're thinking he's gay,

or on the down low.

You know, then you can-- you're opening

the door for domestic violence.

So it's better to teach condom negotiation

from the beginning of a relationship

rather than waiting till you're in the midst of a relationship.

So that was the approach that we talk for newly

forming relationships.

How do you start talking about this?

I'm also trained in the intervention system, which

trains in condom negotiation.

And it does actually have the women practice the skills

when they go home.