Video Interview, Arlisha Massey and Barbara Turner, April 15, 2013
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
- So the first two questions are really easy.
- Just need you to give me the correct spelling
- of your first and last name.
- ARLISHA MASSEY: Arlisha Massey.
- A-R-L-I-S-H-A Last name is M-A-S-S-E-Y.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
- And I need a specific title that we want on screen for you.
- You know.
- ARLISHA MASSEY: I can't think of one.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: And Barbara, I need
- you to give me the correct spelling
- of your first and last name.
- BARBARA TURNER: Barbara Turner B-A-R-B-A-R-A T-U-R-N-E-R.
- And my title would be Manager of--
- Manager of Prevention--
- Programming, Prevention and Services for the Mocha Center
- of Rochester.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
- Alisha, just started with you for a second.
- You-- I want to start before Mocha.
- Because you were working with AIDS Rochester--
- ARLISHA MASSEY: Right.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: --before that.
- Right?
- ARLISHA MASSEY: Right.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: And I'm getting a sense of things
- that you probably experienced at AIDS Rochester was part of what
- was then brought over to Mocha?
- ARLISHA MASSEY: Yeah.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So talk to me a little bit
- about working with AIDS in Rochester
- and the kind of things that you were seeing there,
- specifically when it comes to communities
- of color and the AIDS epidemic.
- Because eventually I want move towards how we got into Mocha.
- ARLISHA MASSEY: Well, when I first started out
- with AIDS Rochester, it was--
- I was doing community outreach.
- And I saw that most of the people that we were reaching
- were not people of color.
- But me being in the lifestyle but being kind of closeted,
- I was like, wait a minute.
- If I know where to go find men that are on the DL then
- we should use these tools out in the field.
- So I came up with suggestions of let's go
- behind the Greyhound bus station.
- We know that where male hustlers are.
- Let's walk down Monroe Avenue.
- Let's start handing out condoms.
- Initially, they were reluctant to take the condoms.
- We'll just take cigarettes with us.
- They'll take the cigarette, hey, how about a condom?
- Oh, I don't need any.
- Give them to your friends.
- And so after doing that I said, we really,
- really need to take this a little further
- into our community.
- And that's we ended up flowing into Mocha.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I want to just explore that a little bit more
- before we get into Mocha.
- The resistance among the community of color.
- You know, not only the stigma of being gay and not,
- you know, there's a whole stigma there more so
- in the communities of color than the Caucasian community.
- Talk to me a little bit about that.
- Talk to me just about trying to break through those barriers.
- ARLISHA MASSEY: Well, the biggest barrier
- that I think religion.
- Because most community of colors,
- as what I've experienced, you know, growing up, it's a taboo.
- You know, being a homosexual is totally you're going to hell.
- You can hang it up.
- So that was it.
- So a lot of people of color they just they
- didn't want to be associated in any way with homosexuality.
- Because one, you're going to get backlash from the community
- in general, two, the religious community, you know,
- if you're a part of one.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Gotcha.
- OK.
- I'm gonna ask you the same question.
- Now, what you said was great, but be careful not
- to do this on the microphone.
- ARLISHA MASSEY: Oh.
- I forgot about (laughs)--
- I forgot the microphone I just talk with my hands a lot.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: It's OK.
- Yeah.
- So set it up for me again.
- Particularly in the communities of color
- there was this stigma that you had
- to break through particularly because
- of the religious aspects in that.
- ARLISHA MASSEY: Yeah.
- I think that the religious barrier was one of the biggest,
- you know, especially people of color that
- come from a religious community, or a community of faith.
- And you don't want to be associated
- in any way with homosexuality, or that lifestyle.
- So you're hiding behind that.
- And then-- I'm losing my train of thought. (laughs)
- KEVIN INDOVINO: That's OK.
- We'll just take a break.
- ARLISHA MASSEY: All right.
- Let's go back to that one.
- Wait.
- Go to another one.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
- There was something upon in your first response
- that I want to explore a little bit.
- You know, when you were approaching
- these I'm assuming mostly guys behind the bus station
- and going down Monroe Avenue or whatever,
- trying to hand out condoms, they were saying,
- oh, we don't need them.
- Where did that mentality come from?
- Where were they not getting the message
- that there's this-- this thing out there
- that's gonna kill them.
- ARLISHA MASSEY: They didn't think it would affect them.
- This is a white man's disease.
- BARBARA TURNER: It's a gay disease.
- ARLISHA MASSEY: And it's a gay disease.
- And it's, oh, I don't need a condom.
- I'm just messing with my girl.
- If I get a condom, guess what, my girl gonna know I'm
- up to something.
- You know.
- So as a result, we'd engage with men.
- And a lot of it was because money exchanged hands.
- But then they figure, ah, I don't need it.
- He's just giving me a blow job.
- I don't need a condom.
- Or it's the heat of the moment, if they don't have the condom,
- they don't care about it.
- However, if it's the heat of the moment and you got a condom,
- chances are you're going to pull it out and use it.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I'm gonna move to you for a second.
- Talk about this same kind of issue.
- I want to talk a little bit about maybe the those first--
- when did you start with Mocha?
- Let me ask you that.
- BARBARA TURNER: When did I start with Mocha?
- Oh, gosh.
- It had to be 15 years ago, 10 - 15 years ago.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So those first years
- when you were arriving in Mocha can you
- talk to me about, again, the same kind of barriers
- and challenges that you had to deal with in reaching out
- to a community of color?
- BARBARA TURNER: Well, when I first began working with Mocha
- I began working with the youth.
- The GAGV had a joint grant to increase the capacity
- of young people of color.
- And they had a hard time finding a lesbian
- to co-facilitate this group.
- So that became my involvement.
- I had an involvement with the GAGV,
- and they knew of me, having been a mental health professional.
- So I was recruited at that time to co-facilitate these groups.
- The challenge that we had, again, like Arlisha
- said, a lot of the kids were from faith backgrounds.
- And therefore, they didn't believe--
- they believe that whatever happened to them they deserved.
- So therefore, I'm not worthy of using a condom
- because I'm already gay.
- My preacher told me I'm going to go to hell.
- So why should I protect myself?
- I deserve anything I get.
- So we had to start working with them from the inside out.
- You know, letting them know that they were worthy of living,
- that there were other faiths out there that would embrace them
- for who they were.
- And then start teaching them how to negotiate.
- Once we taught them that they were worthy
- of it, of being safe, then we had
- to teach them negotiation skills with condoms,
- and how to negotiate with their partners, or people
- they were having sex with.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I'm gonna go back to Arlisha here.
- So at some point when you were AIDS Rochester you--
- a light bulb went off says there is
- this segment of our population that needs a little bit
- more attention.
- We need to figure out different ways of reaching out to them.
- Can you tell me about when you finally
- realized that we have to find different ways of reaching
- the community of color here, and how that moved
- into then the develop of Mocha.
- ARLISHA MASSEY: Try that again.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I threw a lot at you.
- ARLISHA MASSEY: Yeah.
- And I had a lot going on in my mind about to speak out on.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Let's just review a little bit then.
- At what point did you realize that you
- were going to need to reach the communities of color
- in regards to AIDS education and prevention in different ways
- than how we were doing it in mainstream society?
- ARLISHA MASSEY: I figured we'd have to--
- the light bulb went on in my head
- when I got to thinking about my own closeted life.
- I wasn't out.
- I wasn't-- I just didn't feel good about being out based
- on my religious upbringing and so on and so forth.
- And so I got to thinking, how did I meet these guys?
- And I remember I met a lot of my so-called straight guys
- in straight clubs.
- You know, but they were on the down low, as we called it
- back in the days.
- I remember I'm out by the bus station.
- I see somebody.
- Mm.
- They give me the eye.
- I give them the eye.
- And it's just nonverbal communication
- and you go from there.
- So I put--
- I took my own experience and I said, look,
- this is how we have to approach it.
- And one of the ways I approached it
- was go to some of the straight bars during off peak hours,
- speaking with the bar manager saying, hey, how about
- if we take a container.
- I'll bring a container down.
- We'll put condoms in, free, no charge to you.
- We'll do it on a slow night.
- You know, if you're busiest nights Thursday, Friday,
- and Saturday, we'll come in on Thursday,
- fill up the bowl with condoms.
- And we won't come around.
- Just certain holidays we will come and do a big condom blitz,
- where all of us come out and we hand
- out condoms about five minutes.
- Then we'll take off out the bar.
- And that went over well.
- I would go back once a week to refill the condoms.
- And at first, it's lower, lower, lower.
- Then they're completely empty, where
- I had the bar owners calling me hey,
- you need to come fill up your condom bowls.
- So that's the approach that I took.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Can you talk to me about some
- of the initial reaction again?
- You know, about going out to the bars
- and trying to talk to these people,
- hey, you know, we're just not giving you free condoms
- for the hell of it here.
- You know, we're trying to save your lives.
- Again, you know, what was the reaction from the communities,
- from the bar owners but more so from the patrons.
- ARLISHA MASSEY: Initially, from the patrons
- there was a bit of a pull back.
- I don't want to hear about that faggot stuff.
- And you know, I was literally getting that kind
- of communication back to me.
- So then we decided, OK, let's just not--
- if they ask us questions then we'll answer the questions,
- you know, best we could.
- So again, we decided to put informational packets
- in with the condoms.
- So when they're alone, by themselves, buddy's not around,
- they can read and go, oh, this could happen to me.
- So I thought that was the easiest approach.
- And once we started doing that nonverbal communication
- with them, just handed them out the condoms.
- And we would even take holidays like, let's say Easter,
- and we'd actually put the condoms in an egg,
- a plastic egg with informational packet, hand it out.
- It was much easier.
- They feel like oh, everyone's getting it.
- So they're not just focus on me.
- Even though inside they might go, oh, I am on the DL.
- Why are they focusing on me?
- So when we take five or six outreach workers
- and we just have on the same t-shirt or sweatshirt,
- we fan the bar, handing everyone out these condoms disguised
- in little eggs or whatever.
- It was more receptive.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So let's move a little bit--
- and I'm not (unintelligible) but--
- but let's get to the--
- that initial idea of--
- of Mocha, where-- and I'm a little ignorant on this.
- I'm not sure if it came from Gary English initially
- or how that worked out.
- Because we're hoping to eventually also interview
- Gary, if we can get him up here.
- But talk to me about the development of Mocha.
- That there came this idea it's like, no
- but we need an organization for men of color.
- BARBARA TURNER: Think you have to go back to Brother's Keeper.
- ARLISHA MASSEY: Yeah.
- Or Brothers United.
- BARBARA TURNER: You have to start Brothers United.
- So you have to go back to Brothers United.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So tell me about that.
- Tell me about--
- ARLISHA MASSEY: I wasn't--
- I was in Brothers United, but not heavily involved.
- I had actually--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Let's start at the beginning.
- Tell me what Brothers United is.
- ARLISHA MASSEY: OK.
- Brothers United was an organization
- I guess started by Charles Stevens and Gary English.
- It was just a bunch of gay guys that
- identified with each other.
- I would get together on the weekends,
- play cards, have different discussions.
- And then it became more of an organized--
- not as organized as Mocha eventually became--
- but as a maybe once a month meeting.
- And they would come up with different ideas on how
- we can service our community.
- They've got AIDS Rochester.
- We have nothing.
- What can we do?
- And then from Brothers United Gary English
- came up with the idea of Mocha.
- Wasn't the name of it yet.
- I'll take credit for that.
- But I'll tell you that later.
- But we-- so Gary kept floating these ideas
- in his living room over I think on Sanford Street or somewhere.
- And I'm like, you've lost your mind.
- I'm not doing it.
- I'm not doing it.
- I'm not doing it.
- I'm with AIDS Rochester and I'm fine with that.
- So Gary kept expressing, but they're not doing anything
- for the community of color.
- And I'm like, OK, Gary, I'll meet with you.
- So we met a few times.
- And then I eventually brought it to the attention
- of an individual over at AIDS Rochester who--
- they were supportive but they wanted
- it to be ran by AIDS Rochester.
- They didn't want it independent.
- You know, they figured we'd did it, if it's independent,
- the funding's going to be taken away from AIDS Rochester
- and go toward people of color.
- So that's--
- BARBARA TURNER: Gary was a CHN at the time.
- He was working with the nurse-- one of the nurses support
- agencies.
- And he saw really a service gap at the time.
- And he saw when he cared for men of color
- that were HIV positive, and at that state
- the disease progressed very quickly.
- There was no support for them unless they
- wanted to go to AIDS Rochester and be
- treated as a gay white man.
- And that indeed wasn't the case.
- They had different needs.
- So that's where Gary really saw the need
- to pull together some support for men
- of color, which started through a social aspect
- with Charles Stephens.
- And then they embraced others.
- But I think during the time Gary always
- wanted a more organized health service
- aspect to it, where Charles wanted
- a more social aspect to it.
- And I think that's what led to the division
- of the organization, where Mocha started.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: You hit on something I
- want to explore a little bit.
- Men of color who were HIV positive or full
- blown AIDS not getting what they need from AIDS Rochester
- because there's a different need.
- Talk to me.
- What's different about the needs?
- BARBARA TURNER: There's different psychosocial needs.
- We come from a community that does not embrace--
- well, still does not embrace people who are HIV positive--
- but at that time, did not at all.
- I mean, people--
- I remember having friends living at the AIDS Rochester apartment
- complex and having people die.
- And their family members still not even wanting
- to say that they died from AIDS.
- And I remember my friend who was of color say, at this point,
- what does it matter?
- You know, we're all in the same boat living here.
- But the stigma that was attached with it, where
- you were literally isolated.
- ARLISHA MASSEY: And the name itself,
- the name AIDS Rochester had a stigma.
- Didn't want see you.
- A person of color see you there, oh, my God the church
- is gonna know about it.
- Oh, my God.
- Everybody at the club is going to know about it.
- So that name itself was a taboo in the community.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I'm just in my mind
- trying to figure out the best way
- to ask this question about Mocha stepping
- in there to fill the gap.
- I want to kind of get a sense of how
- they thought they were gonna do that when
- there were such this--
- the stigma, this barrier, how
- did Mocha-- you know, the development of Mocha and Gary
- and you guys say, this is how we can start breaking
- through some of these barriers.
- ARLISHA MASSEY: Go ahead.
- BARBARA TURNER: I think the first thing
- they did was have people that looked like the population
- they were trying to reach, giving them messages.
- And that's what Arlisha was talking-- attesting to.
- Having people passing out condoms talking
- to you about safe sex who look like you, who might have been
- on the DL, who might integrate into the normal black
- community, what we consider to be normal,
- the mainstream black community that you might see them
- at bars, but also they're engaging
- with same sex behavior.
- ARLISHA MASSEY: And also we took the social aspect of it
- and came up with kind of the programming.
- What I mean, is like let's say for instance, in our community
- we love playing spades.
- OK.
- We're going to have a spade's night tonight.
- We talk.
- We just play cards.
- And then we start talking about the issues slowly.
- And eventually, everyone is engaging in that.
- You know, so we love to play volleyball.
- We would get up the volleyball net.
- I don't know if you were ever part of that.
- We would take a Saturday or Sunday, go out play volleyball,
- sit at the picnic table.
- Everyone bring something, sit at the picnic table.
- We'd start talking, you know, having a dialogue.
- It seemed informal, but they're getting the message.
- So now when we start different programs
- we invite people to different things.
- You know, there's a social aspect of it.
- So they like that.
- But they know there's a purpose for this.
- BARBARA TURNER: And another thing Gary
- would do is have a barbecue every summer
- and invite everyone.
- And he would refuse to have people pay.
- It had to be free because one of the things,
- realizing that food, basics, economics,
- you know, basic needs of people to eat.
- They needed to come at the same time.
- You provide testing.
- And you provide information.
- And this is something we still do to Mocha to this day,
- that we're getting ready to start planning for now,
- is our annual picnic, or summer cookout that we have.
- But that was another way that he always insisted
- that there was food, and plenty of food there,
- for people when they had programming.
- Because if a person could not eat then
- they weren't going to get the information
- to take better care of themselves
- or to protect themselves with a condom.
- So just believing in the basic needs that, you know--
- ARLISHA MASSEY: And another thing I want to add to kind of.
- With Mocha, we had to come up with a name.
- Because I don't even think we were named at the time.
- And so we brainstormed and we brainstormed.
- I got laughed at so many different names.
- So one night literally, this is about 3:00 in the morning,
- it clicked in my head, Mocha, Men of Color Health Awareness
- Project.
- Mocha, that's like a creamy, brown color.
- So you'd mix the lightest of the black people,
- or the brown people, and the dark as you mix
- it up, it's mocha now.
- And it doesn't have that stereotype of AIDS Rochester.
- You know, so most people just thought
- we were a social group initially,
- until they got involved.
- And then we would have people come, oh,
- is Mocha doing anything this year?
- Oh, is Mocha having anything down there?
- Where's Mocha new location?
- You know so it caught.
- And it grew to Barb.
- Go ahead.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: This is gonna be a two part question.
- Again, at the very beginnings of starting up that group, Mocha,
- can you talk to me about some of the challenges?
- Financial challenges, or community awareness,
- you know, trying to get the the community to really embrace
- this organization?
- ARLISHA MASSEY: Well, I tell you we didn't have a lot of money.
- And I didn't know the ins and outs
- of starting an organization, even though I
- worked for AIDS Rochester.
- I was just an outreach worker.
- I didn't know the in and outs of everything.
- We left Gary with the business head to do that.
- But we only started out with a $50,000 grant.
- And I think most of that covered salaries, majority of it
- initially.
- And so it was a lot of volunteer work, a lot of volunteer.
- I put a lot of volunteer hours in.
- Because I was starting to really,
- really understand and like the cause that I'm working toward,
- or to work toward.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: When did--
- I want that kind of defining moment
- where you guys kind of looked at what you were doing
- and you realized, yeah, we started up something really,
- not only good, but something necessary.
- You know, when did you know that this group was a success?
- ARLISHA MASSEY: When we met with the manager of the grant, Tim.
- You remember Tim?
- He was an ex-priest.
- BARBARA TURNER: Tim Morris?
- ARLISHA MASSEY: Tim Morris.
- BARBARA TURNER: From Center for--
- Center for Independent Living.
- He was the Executive Director of Center for Independent Living.
- ARLISHA MASSEY: And when I--
- he gave us a speech, telling us what a great job--
- and when I saw tears in his eyes, it hit it for me.
- I said, wow, somebody else other than us understands.
- And they're not of color.
- And that was the defining moment for me.
- BARBARA TURNER: And I think when Gary also,
- when he teamed up with Sue Cowell
- and that led to Pat Cory Doniger.
- It was in his meeting with Pat Cory Doniger
- and they sat and developed the Many Men Many Voices,
- which is behavioral intervention that is now called the DEBI.
- And is recognized by the CDC and in their curriculum
- of behavioral interventions for effective--
- for reaching men who have sex with men.
- And it is now a national model.
- But when that-- the development of that
- really realized that they were really on to something.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Is there any memorable stories--
- without giving names or specific details--
- working with a client, working with youth or something,
- that really kind of dawned in you says,
- yeah, we're really doing important work here?
- ARLISHA MASSEY: Oh.
- Oh, yes.
- The very first time when we were doing a notification-- back
- then, I don't know if they still do it,
- we'd actually go after we've tested
- and it come back positive, we would actually go and deliver,
- it has to be in twos, deliver the results.
- And there was this particular young man
- that he just thought his life was over.
- And I stayed there for about five hours.
- I wouldn't leave until I was sure that he was OK.
- And And it was tough on me, it really
- was, to see this grown man cry, thinking his life is over.
- And I'm like, wow, how many others never even find out
- until the end?
- Then I have a humorous one I'll tell you later.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Barb, with you, I mean--
- BARBARA TURNER: I think--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: --is there that moment where you realized,
- and I'm sure there's many, but where you realized yeah,
- what I'm doing here is--
- is an important work to do?
- BARBARA TURNER: When I was doing youth group,
- 10 years ago, when we were in Sibley Tower.
- That's where Mocha had the first location,
- their first independent location in Sibley Tower.
- And we were doing the monthly, or excuse me,
- the weekly youth groups.
- And listening to youth, seeing youth interact
- with one another, being themselves,
- seeing youth come into my group as one gender,
- going to the bathroom and coming back
- and me not recognizing them, because they
- were another gender when they returned from the bathroom.
- But having that space, where they can express that
- and do that.
- And then at the same time, listening to them in group.
- And I really didn't realize this,
- that when they saw each other on the street,
- they still weren't able to acknowledge each other,
- even though they were sisters in the group,
- they were brothers in the group.
- They shared these common experiences.
- But when they were in the street with their friends
- they would not--
- they would tell me they would nod to each other,
- or give each other some type of acknowledgment.
- But they still would not speak to one another.
- At that time, I realized how important
- that space was of Mocha, for them to have that place
- to collectively come together and be who they naturally are.
- Because it's still-- they weren't
- able to express that in their everyday lives
- out and walking through midtown plaza at that time,
- or wherever they may be.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Just have to deal with it.
- So let's jump forward 15, 20 years.
- When did Mocha start?
- BARBARA TURNER: Was it '90?
- Or was it--
- ARLISHA MASSEY: '92?
- No.
- It was in the 90s, early 90s.
- '92 or '93, I don't know specifically.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
- So I want to talk about Mocha today and the kind of work
- that you're doing there.
- Has things changed?
- Are the barriers still there within the community?
- BARBARA TURNER: Oh.
- As things are now we still have barriers reaching out
- to the community.
- We still-- well, we still have barriers
- with the African-American community.
- We're allowed at the table now, but as long as we don't
- talk too much about what we do.
- You know?
- But at the same token, people in the community
- are seeing the need for Mocha.
- We're being asked to speak more.
- We're being asked to be part of the larger stream representing
- as we organize and move forward.
- Working with the young adults, we're
- seeing they're able to express themselves.
- We have seen a lot of gender identity changing.
- They're being able to express their gender identity now,
- both in the office and out of the office.
- And we're able to give them that support
- and steer them in the direction that they
- need to be steered in.
- So I'm very excited about that.
- The work that we're doing we have a tremendous amount
- of support groups at Mocha.
- We're doing interventions.
- Again, our numbers are extremely high for men of color
- who are same sex practicing.
- But we have several interventions
- that we're now starting to focus on to address these needs.
- And Mocha has gone from the name change.
- We're no longer Men of Color Health Awareness Project.
- We are now the Mocha center, which
- is more inclusive of the whole community of Rochester.
- So not just focusing on men, we're focusing on lesbians.
- We have a focus on transgender.
- And our center is open to everyone.
- And our services are more reflective of that.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Let's expand on that a little bit.
- Let's talk about that evolution in Mocha and where it is today.
- And why it's important to evolve beyond just the men that
- are on the down low.
- BARBARA TURNER: Yeah.
- We had to expand past the men on the down low,
- even though that still is a big segment of the population
- that we are still trying to reach out to.
- And it is still it's difficult for us.
- And in doing that, we have to go to mainstream
- African-American bars and places where
- we feel as though they attend.
- But in order to be inclusive in the community of Rochester
- and adapt our programming as such,
- we really needed to focus.
- We've had much more of a youth focus
- because that's where we saw the biggest growing
- number of the population.
- And so we adapted as such.
- And our grant have allowed us to adapt as such.
- ARLISHA MASSEY: Now, even though I'm not with Mocha,
- I've got to say about my evolving
- I've seen a big change in--
- not a huge change, but a change in the community
- in general's perception of a lot of transgender.
- I'm actually seeing transgender people
- working in mainstream areas that I've seen at Mocha events.
- I'm like, wow, you've got that much confidence to go just how
- you are and apply for that job. .
- And I see them and they're just as happy.
- And I'm sure their coworkers are more accepting
- than they probably were--
- because they're accepting of themselves.
- Because they've got that confidence that, you know,
- confidence building that you guys do at the Mocha Center.
- BARBARA TURNER: And African Queens
- was our support group for transgender men
- to women, which I think that allowed that to happen.
- Yeah.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, it's interesting
- that you mentioned that because there's
- that one character on Glee now, the African-American gentleman
- who's transgender.
- And you know, and it's just it's accepted.
- ARLISHA MASSEY: Yeah.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Which kind of brings me to the question.
- I'm going way back and I'm--
- I don't remember the date on this,
- but I think it probably predates Mocha.
- But you know, when Magic Johnson came out
- that he's HIV positive.
- Did any of you remember that moment
- and the impact it may have had on the kind of work
- that you guys were doing?
- I think it did predate Mocha.
- ARLISHA MASSEY: It was even prior to me
- working at AIDS Rochester.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.
- OK.
- It just-- his name popped up in my head.
- And was like, I wonder if that had anything--
- BARBARA TURNER: Well, I was working in mental health
- at the field.
- And I had a lot of friends that were working
- at AIDS Rochester at the time.
- But it just really gave a face--
- I mean, as was Rock Hudson gave a face to the disease--
- when Magic Johnson came out and said that he was HIV positive,
- it gave a face to the African-American community.
- Because no longer was this a gay white disease.
- It showed that African-Americans can indeed,
- if you're not protected, heterosexual African-Americans
- can as well, contract the virus.
- So it didn't-- him coming out with that did quite a bit
- for the community, and still does.
- You know, it still does.
- As far as medication adherence, you
- know, that you can live a long time with the virus
- if you take care of yourself and you adhere to your medications.
- So he is a testimony to all that.
- And life doesn't stop.
- Because it used to be a death sentence.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: You're in an interesting position
- because you're a lesbian woman of color
- dealing with what initially was an organization for men
- of color--
- And talk to me about that.
- Because I'm not sure where I'm going
- with this but particularly within communities of color,
- the women are the anchors.
- And the women are the driving force in those communities.
- And I think there's a connection there with the kind of work
- that you're doing for this organization,
- I'm assuming other women as well.
- You know, when it finally came to light
- that we have to do with this issue with men of color,
- how did you get involved with it?
- What was it that drew you to that particular community need?
- BARBARA TURNER: Again, like I told you,
- I was approached by GAGV when they did not
- have an out lesbian of color.
- I think how I become involved in everything in this community
- is because I'm out and of color.
- And there's always been a need for it
- and the lack of visibility as far as black lesbians.
- You know, so my visibility is what has involved me
- in a lot of causes and a lot of boards
- and a lot of involvement in the gay community.
- But also my personal relationships,
- my personal relationship with Gary.
- And then my personal relationship
- with other HIV positive men that have since passed and gone on
- has really involved me in the Rays of Hope conference.
- My personal involvement with Sharon Haskins,
- who has gone on, has kept me involved and engaged
- in this field.
- And I believe also what keeps me involved
- now is seeing the positive that we've done, seeing now the kids
- that I worked with in youth group 10 years ago,
- or that are now 30 years old, and are working
- in professional positions, and are doing
- great things in our community.
- Also, the need is still there, seeing these high numbers
- that people are not protecting themselves.
- Women being the anchoring force, as you said, in this I think,
- because I'm a little bit older, and I do have a lot of history
- with the organization, I'm a parent
- and I have a child who was involved with the Mocha groups
- in the early days, who even though my daughter is
- heterosexual, she had two-- she has two moms.
- So it put her in a very unique position, where she could--
- she was a child of two gay moms.
- And so-- and so I do have the parental-ish type
- of feeling too.
- So when people do come to me, and the young adults now
- come to me, I think they feel as though they
- are getting very authentic and accurate information.
- And to them, that's important.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Kind of jumping all over place
- here but when we you were talking about particularly
- early on reaching men of color, trying
- to get to the men that are on the down low, get them condoms,
- and get them information.
- It would seem to me that getting to the women of those community
- and getting them educating would be also another way of breaking
- through those barriers.
- I'm assuming that's kind of what had happened, that you
- guys went down that road.
- Or I could be totally wrong.
- ARLISHA MASSEY: No.
- I wouldn't say we really approached the women
- in the community.
- Because again, like you said, the women
- are anchor in a community of color in most cases.
- But it's usually backed by religion and that's the thing.
- So to go to a woman--
- let's say me, as a man of, you know, gay man of color--
- I go and I want to talk to a woman about what's
- going on in her son's life.
- If they're backed by religion, they're
- going be like, get out of my face.
- You're sinning.
- You're not going to put that corruption in my child's mind.
- You know.
- So I think that's why--
- well, that would be one of the reasons
- why I wouldn't approach the anchor women--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I was kind of thinking
- in terms of, OK, this guy that's on the down low is also
- sleeping with this woman.
- If we can get that woman educated and protect her son.
- ARLISHA MASSEY: We initially, in my days of Mocha,
- when we started, I guess that's when we met up with Barb,
- I think.
- And you advocated for dental dams and so on.
- So then we started actually in the bars
- as we'd do an outreach with the condoms we
- were given dental dams, female condoms, you know.
- So if the guy don't want to do it, she had a choice.
- And she didn't have to use his condom.
- She can use her condom.
- BARBARA TURNER: Usually, it's very difficult
- in the African-American community--
- I worked for another agency, which
- was a heterosexual sexual of color prevention agency.
- And I would give talks to younger black women.
- And you know, the term is, well, I don't need it.
- My man's not cheating.
- My man's not doing it.
- My man better not be.
- Well, I would immediately call my friend who
- worked for the county of Monroe Health Department
- and ask her what were the stats last month for chlamydia,
- gonorrhea, and HIV?
- And write it on the board as we were speaking.
- And like, this is the community that we live in.
- And this is what's going on.
- So who do you think is getting all these things, you know?
- And I would have to start with the numbers
- and then work my way backwards.
- But still, you know, in a community
- it's a double edged sword.
- Because from an African-American standpoint, men are known--
- or it's acceptable to a certain extent for African-American men
- to be promiscuous.
- But then you're dealing with the African-American woman who
- says, well, that's not my man.
- Well, it's somebody's man.
- So it is very hard.
- And then if you do approach your man with the condom,
- then you're giving the-- you're giving him
- a mixed message that he's either being promiscuous,
- or heaven forbid, if you're thinking he's gay,
- or on the down low.
- You know, then you can-- you're opening
- the door for domestic violence.
- So it's better to teach condom negotiation
- from the beginning of a relationship
- rather than waiting till you're in the midst of a relationship.
- So that was the approach that we talk for newly
- forming relationships.
- How do you start talking about this?
- I'm also trained in the intervention system, which
- trains in condom negotiation.
- And it does actually have the women practice the skills
- when they go home.
- ARLISHA MASSEY: I'll tell you an interesting story.
- Back when I was doing outreach with Mocha
- and we would go fill up the bars with condoms and everything,
- well, unbeknownst to me the community saw me.
- They would say, oh--
- BARBARA TURNER: The condom guy.
- ARLISHA MASSEY: --the condom man.
- I'd have ladies coming up to me.
- I have guys I have sex workers coming to me.
- So I sold this one car I had.
- And I used to have so many condoms in the back.
- So I cleaned everything out.
- I get this call from this guy.
- You've got to tell my girl, man, these are not my condoms.
- They're not my condoms.
- I try to explain to her.
- So I had to actually go there, explain to his girlfriend
- that I'll take the rest of these condoms.
- I didn't know they had went down in the wheel well.
- No, they're not his.
- This is what I do.
- I work for Mocha Project.
- And finally, I convinced her.
- But it was so funny.
- I mean, she was really upset.
- But yeah.
- I was known as the condom man.
- They'd see my car and they would run right up to my car
- like I was selling crack.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: When history looks back at Mocha
- and more specifically the work that you guys have been doing
- with Mocha, what do you want future generations to know
- about, you know, what Mocha--
- I don't want to say what Mocha was because it's still around--
- but about the work that Mocha is doing?
- You know, what do you want future generations
- to know most about why Mocha was necessary?
- ARLISHA MASSEY: If you see something happen
- in your community and no one's doing anything to change it,
- be willing to step up to the plate.
- It might be just you.
- But if you step up to the plate, others are going to follow you.
- If you're the head, the body will follow.
- BARBARA TURNER: And I think it attests right now, to our new--
- to Mocha's mission statement now, that has changed
- over the years and evolved.
- But right now it is improving the health and wellness
- of the LGBT community of color.
- And it's just that simple.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So I'm gonna section these questions.
- So Barb I want to speak to you a little bit--
- may still have time here-- about lesbian women of color.
- You don't hear a lot about lesbian women of color.
- You don't hear a lot about the groups that you guys have.
- You know, you're almost this little,
- again, this little niche group out there
- that is not very visible.
- Can you talk to me about that?
- Just talk to me about your experience
- about being a lesbian woman of color,
- particularly here in Rochester.
- BARBARA TURNER: Oh.
- It's very difficult. It's really difficult as far as Rochester.
- Because at one point we had SUITS,
- Sisters United In Two Spirits, which we did model
- from the male group that Arlisha talked about,
- that was the beginning of Mocha.
- But I think the Rochester community is very segregated.
- The Rochester lesbian community of color
- is very segregated by class.
- It's very segregated by class.
- And it's very segregated by age.
- So you just find various small clicks within it.
- And it's very hard to bring them all together.
- You know, and those clicks are very, you know,
- like I know where a certain population hangs out.
- I know where the younger population hangs out.
- Really, there's no place where the older population
- and the ones with family, they kind of do the house thing.
- You know?
- So it's very cliquish.
- And it's been very difficult.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Can you just expand on that a little bit
- about the difficulties?
- About the-- I don't want to say assimilated into the overall
- LGBT community--
- but finding your place within the LGBT community.
- BARBARA TURNER: As far as me personally finding my place
- in the LGBT--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Women of color.
- BARBARA TURNER: Well, I don't know if women--
- I don't know if a lot of the women of color
- want to assimilate into the LGBT community.
- I think they just-- they're very comfortable with their own--
- with the segment of the population that they fit in,
- whether it's color outside the line crew, or Lez Rock
- is another crew.
- I think they're very comfortable in their crews that they're in,
- or their groups that they're in.
- And they're not trying to assimilate into the larger LGBT
- community.
- And the larger LGBT community never
- did much to outreach to lesbians of color.
- One, there was never a financial--
- there was never any financial gain
- by reaching out to that community.
- There was a financial gain to reach out to the men of color.
- Because of the HIV infection rates,
- there was grant money associated with reaching out
- to that population.
- So it became a very big population
- to reach out to for financial reasons.
- But there was never that association
- with the lesbians of color.
- So it really did drift by the wayside.
- There's never been any real outreach to reach out to them.
- And as a result, they never reciprocated
- by trying to reach out to the--
- if you ever go to our pride picnic in the summertime,
- you will see how segmented the lesbian of color population is.
- There's this group under a tree.
- There's that group under a tree.
- And there's another group under a tree.
- And then you have Dianne Conway and myself
- mingling with everyone.
- You know, and that's just the way it is.
- So they've always been very comfortable
- in their own communities.
- And they had to form their own communities
- as a result for their support.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Again, I'm just kind of exploring.
- I'm not even sure where I'm going with it
- but are we then missing out on something?
- That you know, the general LGBT community
- not reaching out to lesbian women of color, you know,
- is there something that--
- that we're missing on?
- Or is it (unintelligible)?
- Is it the fact that you don't need us?
- You're having a good old time on your own.
- Why do you need us?
- BARBARA TURNER: Well, I think that, you know,
- there's strength in numbers.
- You know, and I didn't realize that until I
- went to the march on-- the LGBT march
- on Washington, that visibility is power.
- And yes, I think everything is needed.
- And it does need to be inclusive at some point.
- You know, we do need to make a concertive outreach
- to bring the LGBT--
- to bring the lesbians of color into it.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I just realized how I should ask this question.
- BARBARA TURNER: OK.
- Go ahead.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: What is it about the lesbian
- women of color community that the rest of us
- should know about?
- BARBARA TURNER: Oh.
- Boy, you put a lot of weight on me for that one.
- The lesbian-- what is it about the lesbian
- of color communities that you should know?
- You should know that it's very diverse.
- We are very often mothers.
- And that is something that's very different.
- Biological mothers, and that's very different from the lesbian
- community that's not of color.
- Because of the heavy religious tones
- and expectations that were placed of us, a lot of us
- had to assimilate into--
- try to assimilate into heterosexual relationships,
- which resulted in children being born.
- So that's one thing that's very different.
- And usually we come out a little bit later or we're bisexual,
- or we go back and forth.
- Because we've had to have relationships with men
- to keep up appearances, or as one woman told me,
- she had to satisfy her mother.
- And she had to get married.
- So she got married to a very close friend of hers.
- And she still lives as heterosexual.
- But-- so very often these are the type of relationships
- that we do have.
- You will find a lot of married lesbians as a result of this.
- So that's I think primarily-- and it
- is because of the heavy influence of religion.
- And it might not be the religion that I have right now.
- But it's the expectation of my family's religion.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Do you foresee in the near future
- of trying to break down those walls that separate us?
- Or reaching you know--
- well, both groups have to do some outreach to each other.
- But do you foresee the need for that?
- And also, how do you think that will come about?
- BARBARA TURNER: I don't know if we'll break down those walls.
- But what I think in the future, it's being more inclusive
- and understanding that these are also people in our community.
- And these are people in our community.
- They might be just as LGBTQIST as you and I.
- But the circumstances are different.
- So it's understanding we're not all this cookie cutter, rah rah
- love and sports lesbians that we're used to seeing.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Just making sure I didn't miss anything here.
- I think we're good.
- Evelyn always has questions, which means
- I usually missed something.
- EVELYN BAILEY: (unintelligible)
- KEVIN INDOVINO: We'll pretend I'm asking this question.
- BARBARA TURNER: Probably got an answer but--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Breaking down those stigmas,
- because there's such a strong sense of religious faith
- among the community of color, what about working
- with the churches within those religious faiths
- to try and reach the people that you need to reach?
- BARBARA TURNER: Since I've been working at Mocha
- we've been very involved with BLOCA,
- which is the Black Leadership Commission on AIDS,
- and it's mostly working with ministers,
- African-American ministers in the Rochester area.
- And we did sponsor, or co-sponsored with them,
- the World AIDS Day celebration.
- It's been difficult. I will not tell you--
- they value us at the table.
- But then again they don't really want to hear us at the table.
- During the World AIDS Day celebration
- our youth from Mocha led a youth rally
- that made it on the cover of the DNC Sunday's paper.
- It was on the local section with the headline,
- The Hope For the Future.
- And it had two of our youth, one male, one transgendering female
- to male young person.
- They did not put our name.
- They did not put their name on there.
- And they did not put Mocha's name.
- Even when the news captured it they did not use Mocha.
- They used the-- they went back to the reverends
- and the reverends in their article
- never once mentioned Mocha's name in there.
- ARLISHA MASSEY: I think a lot of the church leaders
- are afraid to offend the rest of their congregation.
- You know, they might very well feel
- like that LBGT community they should all be treated equal.
- But they wouldn't dare say it across the pulpit.
- BARBARA TURNER: No.
- ARLISHA MASSEY: Oh, my God.
- My membership will fall.
- There was one minister here.
- He's since passed, Dr. McCree.
- He was so open and loving to the LBGT community
- until about I would say 60 percent of his congregation
- were LBGT.
- Some were under cover but they were there.
- And they liked his message.
- He was one that wasn't afraid to stand up.
- But since his passing, I haven't been as involved with Mocha,
- you know, since his passing, but he was--
- had other leaders taken the same role that he had taken,
- I think we'd be in a completely different spot.
- BARBARA TURNER: We have a few that
- still refer to Reverend McCullough,
- I mean Reverend McCree, as their mentor.
- ARLISHA MASSEY: Yes.
- BARBARA TURNER: And those are the few
- that will come to any AIDS celebrations
- that we have and will speak up.
- However, they're few and far between.
- Again, when we had the service we
- made sure that we had a lesbian minister on the program.
- The day of the service, her name was excluded from the program.
- She showed up in full Reverend outfit.
- And we reminded them that she was
- to deliver a certain portion of the programming.
- The Reverend who was at the host church excluded her from that.
- And very outwardly excluded her from that.
- So you know, we still-- it's not all of the ministers.
- But the ministers are trying to educate the other ministers.
- But it's a very, very slow process.
- One of the ministers at Mount Olive the Baptist church,
- then announced that he was HIV positive.
- And he has been on some panels talking, which again, takes it
- away from being a gay disease.
- But it doesn't help as far as ministering to the gay members
- of their church.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: It does bring up one more question.
- In the development of Mocha and being out in the community
- and trying to reach this population,
- was there any significant backlash?
- Was there any times where you kind of really
- had to get up your back bone, really get in there
- and say, no, you're not gonna be (unintelligible) here.
- You're not gonna get rid of us?
- ARLISHA MASSEY: I'm sure there were.
- But I didn't have the occasion of experiencing it.
- But some of us left it all up to Gary.
- But yeah, he really--
- he pounded because he fought for what he believed in.
- Yeah.
- There was times that he had it very hard,
- even going against other organizations.
- Gary would try to apply for a grant
- and this other organization would
- try to cut-- undercut him to keep him
- from getting the grant.
- You know, so there were some struggles.
- Absolutely.
- And I'm sure they're still having some struggles.
- BARBARA TURNER: There are churches
- that we were allowed to.
- And it's one of the same churches you spoke of,
- that, you know, since that Reverend has passed
- on new reverends have come in.
- And they're OK, well, you can come and do HIV testing.
- But you can't give out any information, which how can
- you teach people to take care of themselves
- if you can't give out any information.
- You know?
- Sort of like the Catholic church not
- letting us hand out condoms.
- You know, when the HIV infection rate is so high.
- So you know--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: All right.
- Thank you.
- ARLISHA MASSEY: All right.
- BARBARA TURNER: You're welcome.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Let's get those microphones off of you.
- ARLISHA MASSEY: You're not gonna sell me a house.