Video Interview, Arlisha Massey and Barbara Turner, April 15, 2013

  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
  • So the first two questions are really easy.
  • Just need you to give me the correct spelling
  • of your first and last name.
  • ARLISHA MASSEY: Arlisha Massey.
  • A-R-L-I-S-H-A Last name is M-A-S-S-E-Y.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
  • And I need a specific title that we want on screen for you.
  • You know.
  • ARLISHA MASSEY: I can't think of one.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: And Barbara, I need
  • you to give me the correct spelling
  • of your first and last name.
  • BARBARA TURNER: Barbara Turner B-A-R-B-A-R-A T-U-R-N-E-R.
  • And my title would be Manager of--
  • Manager of Prevention--
  • Programming, Prevention and Services for the Mocha Center
  • of Rochester.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
  • Alisha, just started with you for a second.
  • You-- I want to start before Mocha.
  • Because you were working with AIDS Rochester--
  • ARLISHA MASSEY: Right.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: --before that.
  • Right?
  • ARLISHA MASSEY: Right.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: And I'm getting a sense of things
  • that you probably experienced at AIDS Rochester was part of what
  • was then brought over to Mocha?
  • ARLISHA MASSEY: Yeah.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So talk to me a little bit
  • about working with AIDS in Rochester
  • and the kind of things that you were seeing there,
  • specifically when it comes to communities
  • of color and the AIDS epidemic.
  • Because eventually I want move towards how we got into Mocha.
  • ARLISHA MASSEY: Well, when I first started out
  • with AIDS Rochester, it was--
  • I was doing community outreach.
  • And I saw that most of the people that we were reaching
  • were not people of color.
  • But me being in the lifestyle but being kind of closeted,
  • I was like, wait a minute.
  • If I know where to go find men that are on the DL then
  • we should use these tools out in the field.
  • So I came up with suggestions of let's go
  • behind the Greyhound bus station.
  • We know that where male hustlers are.
  • Let's walk down Monroe Avenue.
  • Let's start handing out condoms.
  • Initially, they were reluctant to take the condoms.
  • We'll just take cigarettes with us.
  • They'll take the cigarette, hey, how about a condom?
  • Oh, I don't need any.
  • Give them to your friends.
  • And so after doing that I said, we really,
  • really need to take this a little further
  • into our community.
  • And that's we ended up flowing into Mocha.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I want to just explore that a little bit more
  • before we get into Mocha.
  • The resistance among the community of color.
  • You know, not only the stigma of being gay and not,
  • you know, there's a whole stigma there more so
  • in the communities of color than the Caucasian community.
  • Talk to me a little bit about that.
  • Talk to me just about trying to break through those barriers.
  • ARLISHA MASSEY: Well, the biggest barrier
  • that I think religion.
  • Because most community of colors,
  • as what I've experienced, you know, growing up, it's a taboo.
  • You know, being a homosexual is totally you're going to hell.
  • You can hang it up.
  • So that was it.
  • So a lot of people of color they just they
  • didn't want to be associated in any way with homosexuality.
  • Because one, you're going to get backlash from the community
  • in general, two, the religious community, you know,
  • if you're a part of one.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Gotcha.
  • OK.
  • I'm gonna ask you the same question.
  • Now, what you said was great, but be careful not
  • to do this on the microphone.
  • ARLISHA MASSEY: Oh.
  • I forgot about (laughs)--
  • I forgot the microphone I just talk with my hands a lot.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: It's OK.
  • Yeah.
  • So set it up for me again.
  • Particularly in the communities of color
  • there was this stigma that you had
  • to break through particularly because
  • of the religious aspects in that.
  • ARLISHA MASSEY: Yeah.
  • I think that the religious barrier was one of the biggest,
  • you know, especially people of color that
  • come from a religious community, or a community of faith.
  • And you don't want to be associated
  • in any way with homosexuality, or that lifestyle.
  • So you're hiding behind that.
  • And then-- I'm losing my train of thought. (laughs)
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: That's OK.
  • We'll just take a break.
  • ARLISHA MASSEY: All right.
  • Let's go back to that one.
  • Wait.
  • Go to another one.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
  • There was something upon in your first response
  • that I want to explore a little bit.
  • You know, when you were approaching
  • these I'm assuming mostly guys behind the bus station
  • and going down Monroe Avenue or whatever,
  • trying to hand out condoms, they were saying,
  • oh, we don't need them.
  • Where did that mentality come from?
  • Where were they not getting the message
  • that there's this-- this thing out there
  • that's gonna kill them.
  • ARLISHA MASSEY: They didn't think it would affect them.
  • This is a white man's disease.
  • BARBARA TURNER: It's a gay disease.
  • ARLISHA MASSEY: And it's a gay disease.
  • And it's, oh, I don't need a condom.
  • I'm just messing with my girl.
  • If I get a condom, guess what, my girl gonna know I'm
  • up to something.
  • You know.
  • So as a result, we'd engage with men.
  • And a lot of it was because money exchanged hands.
  • But then they figure, ah, I don't need it.
  • He's just giving me a blow job.
  • I don't need a condom.
  • Or it's the heat of the moment, if they don't have the condom,
  • they don't care about it.
  • However, if it's the heat of the moment and you got a condom,
  • chances are you're going to pull it out and use it.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I'm gonna move to you for a second.
  • Talk about this same kind of issue.
  • I want to talk a little bit about maybe the those first--
  • when did you start with Mocha?
  • Let me ask you that.
  • BARBARA TURNER: When did I start with Mocha?
  • Oh, gosh.
  • It had to be 15 years ago, 10 - 15 years ago.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So those first years
  • when you were arriving in Mocha can you
  • talk to me about, again, the same kind of barriers
  • and challenges that you had to deal with in reaching out
  • to a community of color?
  • BARBARA TURNER: Well, when I first began working with Mocha
  • I began working with the youth.
  • The GAGV had a joint grant to increase the capacity
  • of young people of color.
  • And they had a hard time finding a lesbian
  • to co-facilitate this group.
  • So that became my involvement.
  • I had an involvement with the GAGV,
  • and they knew of me, having been a mental health professional.
  • So I was recruited at that time to co-facilitate these groups.
  • The challenge that we had, again, like Arlisha
  • said, a lot of the kids were from faith backgrounds.
  • And therefore, they didn't believe--
  • they believe that whatever happened to them they deserved.
  • So therefore, I'm not worthy of using a condom
  • because I'm already gay.
  • My preacher told me I'm going to go to hell.
  • So why should I protect myself?
  • I deserve anything I get.
  • So we had to start working with them from the inside out.
  • You know, letting them know that they were worthy of living,
  • that there were other faiths out there that would embrace them
  • for who they were.
  • And then start teaching them how to negotiate.
  • Once we taught them that they were worthy
  • of it, of being safe, then we had
  • to teach them negotiation skills with condoms,
  • and how to negotiate with their partners, or people
  • they were having sex with.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I'm gonna go back to Arlisha here.
  • So at some point when you were AIDS Rochester you--
  • a light bulb went off says there is
  • this segment of our population that needs a little bit
  • more attention.
  • We need to figure out different ways of reaching out to them.
  • Can you tell me about when you finally
  • realized that we have to find different ways of reaching
  • the community of color here, and how that moved
  • into then the develop of Mocha.
  • ARLISHA MASSEY: Try that again.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I threw a lot at you.
  • ARLISHA MASSEY: Yeah.
  • And I had a lot going on in my mind about to speak out on.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Let's just review a little bit then.
  • At what point did you realize that you
  • were going to need to reach the communities of color
  • in regards to AIDS education and prevention in different ways
  • than how we were doing it in mainstream society?
  • ARLISHA MASSEY: I figured we'd have to--
  • the light bulb went on in my head
  • when I got to thinking about my own closeted life.
  • I wasn't out.
  • I wasn't-- I just didn't feel good about being out based
  • on my religious upbringing and so on and so forth.
  • And so I got to thinking, how did I meet these guys?
  • And I remember I met a lot of my so-called straight guys
  • in straight clubs.
  • You know, but they were on the down low, as we called it
  • back in the days.
  • I remember I'm out by the bus station.
  • I see somebody.
  • Mm.
  • They give me the eye.
  • I give them the eye.
  • And it's just nonverbal communication
  • and you go from there.
  • So I put--
  • I took my own experience and I said, look,
  • this is how we have to approach it.
  • And one of the ways I approached it
  • was go to some of the straight bars during off peak hours,
  • speaking with the bar manager saying, hey, how about
  • if we take a container.
  • I'll bring a container down.
  • We'll put condoms in, free, no charge to you.
  • We'll do it on a slow night.
  • You know, if you're busiest nights Thursday, Friday,
  • and Saturday, we'll come in on Thursday,
  • fill up the bowl with condoms.
  • And we won't come around.
  • Just certain holidays we will come and do a big condom blitz,
  • where all of us come out and we hand
  • out condoms about five minutes.
  • Then we'll take off out the bar.
  • And that went over well.
  • I would go back once a week to refill the condoms.
  • And at first, it's lower, lower, lower.
  • Then they're completely empty, where
  • I had the bar owners calling me hey,
  • you need to come fill up your condom bowls.
  • So that's the approach that I took.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Can you talk to me about some
  • of the initial reaction again?
  • You know, about going out to the bars
  • and trying to talk to these people,
  • hey, you know, we're just not giving you free condoms
  • for the hell of it here.
  • You know, we're trying to save your lives.
  • Again, you know, what was the reaction from the communities,
  • from the bar owners but more so from the patrons.
  • ARLISHA MASSEY: Initially, from the patrons
  • there was a bit of a pull back.
  • I don't want to hear about that faggot stuff.
  • And you know, I was literally getting that kind
  • of communication back to me.
  • So then we decided, OK, let's just not--
  • if they ask us questions then we'll answer the questions,
  • you know, best we could.
  • So again, we decided to put informational packets
  • in with the condoms.
  • So when they're alone, by themselves, buddy's not around,
  • they can read and go, oh, this could happen to me.
  • So I thought that was the easiest approach.
  • And once we started doing that nonverbal communication
  • with them, just handed them out the condoms.
  • And we would even take holidays like, let's say Easter,
  • and we'd actually put the condoms in an egg,
  • a plastic egg with informational packet, hand it out.
  • It was much easier.
  • They feel like oh, everyone's getting it.
  • So they're not just focus on me.
  • Even though inside they might go, oh, I am on the DL.
  • Why are they focusing on me?
  • So when we take five or six outreach workers
  • and we just have on the same t-shirt or sweatshirt,
  • we fan the bar, handing everyone out these condoms disguised
  • in little eggs or whatever.
  • It was more receptive.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So let's move a little bit--
  • and I'm not (unintelligible) but--
  • but let's get to the--
  • that initial idea of--
  • of Mocha, where-- and I'm a little ignorant on this.
  • I'm not sure if it came from Gary English initially
  • or how that worked out.
  • Because we're hoping to eventually also interview
  • Gary, if we can get him up here.
  • But talk to me about the development of Mocha.
  • That there came this idea it's like, no
  • but we need an organization for men of color.
  • BARBARA TURNER: Think you have to go back to Brother's Keeper.
  • ARLISHA MASSEY: Yeah.
  • Or Brothers United.
  • BARBARA TURNER: You have to start Brothers United.
  • So you have to go back to Brothers United.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So tell me about that.
  • Tell me about--
  • ARLISHA MASSEY: I wasn't--
  • I was in Brothers United, but not heavily involved.
  • I had actually--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Let's start at the beginning.
  • Tell me what Brothers United is.
  • ARLISHA MASSEY: OK.
  • Brothers United was an organization
  • I guess started by Charles Stevens and Gary English.
  • It was just a bunch of gay guys that
  • identified with each other.
  • I would get together on the weekends,
  • play cards, have different discussions.
  • And then it became more of an organized--
  • not as organized as Mocha eventually became--
  • but as a maybe once a month meeting.
  • And they would come up with different ideas on how
  • we can service our community.
  • They've got AIDS Rochester.
  • We have nothing.
  • What can we do?
  • And then from Brothers United Gary English
  • came up with the idea of Mocha.
  • Wasn't the name of it yet.
  • I'll take credit for that.
  • But I'll tell you that later.
  • But we-- so Gary kept floating these ideas
  • in his living room over I think on Sanford Street or somewhere.
  • And I'm like, you've lost your mind.
  • I'm not doing it.
  • I'm not doing it.
  • I'm not doing it.
  • I'm with AIDS Rochester and I'm fine with that.
  • So Gary kept expressing, but they're not doing anything
  • for the community of color.
  • And I'm like, OK, Gary, I'll meet with you.
  • So we met a few times.
  • And then I eventually brought it to the attention
  • of an individual over at AIDS Rochester who--
  • they were supportive but they wanted
  • it to be ran by AIDS Rochester.
  • They didn't want it independent.
  • You know, they figured we'd did it, if it's independent,
  • the funding's going to be taken away from AIDS Rochester
  • and go toward people of color.
  • So that's--
  • BARBARA TURNER: Gary was a CHN at the time.
  • He was working with the nurse-- one of the nurses support
  • agencies.
  • And he saw really a service gap at the time.
  • And he saw when he cared for men of color
  • that were HIV positive, and at that state
  • the disease progressed very quickly.
  • There was no support for them unless they
  • wanted to go to AIDS Rochester and be
  • treated as a gay white man.
  • And that indeed wasn't the case.
  • They had different needs.
  • So that's where Gary really saw the need
  • to pull together some support for men
  • of color, which started through a social aspect
  • with Charles Stephens.
  • And then they embraced others.
  • But I think during the time Gary always
  • wanted a more organized health service
  • aspect to it, where Charles wanted
  • a more social aspect to it.
  • And I think that's what led to the division
  • of the organization, where Mocha started.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: You hit on something I
  • want to explore a little bit.
  • Men of color who were HIV positive or full
  • blown AIDS not getting what they need from AIDS Rochester
  • because there's a different need.
  • Talk to me.
  • What's different about the needs?
  • BARBARA TURNER: There's different psychosocial needs.
  • We come from a community that does not embrace--
  • well, still does not embrace people who are HIV positive--
  • but at that time, did not at all.
  • I mean, people--
  • I remember having friends living at the AIDS Rochester apartment
  • complex and having people die.
  • And their family members still not even wanting
  • to say that they died from AIDS.
  • And I remember my friend who was of color say, at this point,
  • what does it matter?
  • You know, we're all in the same boat living here.
  • But the stigma that was attached with it, where
  • you were literally isolated.
  • ARLISHA MASSEY: And the name itself,
  • the name AIDS Rochester had a stigma.
  • Didn't want see you.
  • A person of color see you there, oh, my God the church
  • is gonna know about it.
  • Oh, my God.
  • Everybody at the club is going to know about it.
  • So that name itself was a taboo in the community.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I'm just in my mind
  • trying to figure out the best way
  • to ask this question about Mocha stepping
  • in there to fill the gap.
  • I want to kind of get a sense of how
  • they thought they were gonna do that when
  • there were such this--
  • the stigma, this barrier, how
  • did Mocha-- you know, the development of Mocha and Gary
  • and you guys say, this is how we can start breaking
  • through some of these barriers.
  • ARLISHA MASSEY: Go ahead.
  • BARBARA TURNER: I think the first thing
  • they did was have people that looked like the population
  • they were trying to reach, giving them messages.
  • And that's what Arlisha was talking-- attesting to.
  • Having people passing out condoms talking
  • to you about safe sex who look like you, who might have been
  • on the DL, who might integrate into the normal black
  • community, what we consider to be normal,
  • the mainstream black community that you might see them
  • at bars, but also they're engaging
  • with same sex behavior.
  • ARLISHA MASSEY: And also we took the social aspect of it
  • and came up with kind of the programming.
  • What I mean, is like let's say for instance, in our community
  • we love playing spades.
  • OK.
  • We're going to have a spade's night tonight.
  • We talk.
  • We just play cards.
  • And then we start talking about the issues slowly.
  • And eventually, everyone is engaging in that.
  • You know, so we love to play volleyball.
  • We would get up the volleyball net.
  • I don't know if you were ever part of that.
  • We would take a Saturday or Sunday, go out play volleyball,
  • sit at the picnic table.
  • Everyone bring something, sit at the picnic table.
  • We'd start talking, you know, having a dialogue.
  • It seemed informal, but they're getting the message.
  • So now when we start different programs
  • we invite people to different things.
  • You know, there's a social aspect of it.
  • So they like that.
  • But they know there's a purpose for this.
  • BARBARA TURNER: And another thing Gary
  • would do is have a barbecue every summer
  • and invite everyone.
  • And he would refuse to have people pay.
  • It had to be free because one of the things,
  • realizing that food, basics, economics,
  • you know, basic needs of people to eat.
  • They needed to come at the same time.
  • You provide testing.
  • And you provide information.
  • And this is something we still do to Mocha to this day,
  • that we're getting ready to start planning for now,
  • is our annual picnic, or summer cookout that we have.
  • But that was another way that he always insisted
  • that there was food, and plenty of food there,
  • for people when they had programming.
  • Because if a person could not eat then
  • they weren't going to get the information
  • to take better care of themselves
  • or to protect themselves with a condom.
  • So just believing in the basic needs that, you know--
  • ARLISHA MASSEY: And another thing I want to add to kind of.
  • With Mocha, we had to come up with a name.
  • Because I don't even think we were named at the time.
  • And so we brainstormed and we brainstormed.
  • I got laughed at so many different names.
  • So one night literally, this is about 3:00 in the morning,
  • it clicked in my head, Mocha, Men of Color Health Awareness
  • Project.
  • Mocha, that's like a creamy, brown color.
  • So you'd mix the lightest of the black people,
  • or the brown people, and the dark as you mix
  • it up, it's mocha now.
  • And it doesn't have that stereotype of AIDS Rochester.
  • You know, so most people just thought
  • we were a social group initially,
  • until they got involved.
  • And then we would have people come, oh,
  • is Mocha doing anything this year?
  • Oh, is Mocha having anything down there?
  • Where's Mocha new location?
  • You know so it caught.
  • And it grew to Barb.
  • Go ahead.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: This is gonna be a two part question.
  • Again, at the very beginnings of starting up that group, Mocha,
  • can you talk to me about some of the challenges?
  • Financial challenges, or community awareness,
  • you know, trying to get the the community to really embrace
  • this organization?
  • ARLISHA MASSEY: Well, I tell you we didn't have a lot of money.
  • And I didn't know the ins and outs
  • of starting an organization, even though I
  • worked for AIDS Rochester.
  • I was just an outreach worker.
  • I didn't know the in and outs of everything.
  • We left Gary with the business head to do that.
  • But we only started out with a $50,000 grant.
  • And I think most of that covered salaries, majority of it
  • initially.
  • And so it was a lot of volunteer work, a lot of volunteer.
  • I put a lot of volunteer hours in.
  • Because I was starting to really,
  • really understand and like the cause that I'm working toward,
  • or to work toward.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: When did--
  • I want that kind of defining moment
  • where you guys kind of looked at what you were doing
  • and you realized, yeah, we started up something really,
  • not only good, but something necessary.
  • You know, when did you know that this group was a success?
  • ARLISHA MASSEY: When we met with the manager of the grant, Tim.
  • You remember Tim?
  • He was an ex-priest.
  • BARBARA TURNER: Tim Morris?
  • ARLISHA MASSEY: Tim Morris.
  • BARBARA TURNER: From Center for--
  • Center for Independent Living.
  • He was the Executive Director of Center for Independent Living.
  • ARLISHA MASSEY: And when I--
  • he gave us a speech, telling us what a great job--
  • and when I saw tears in his eyes, it hit it for me.
  • I said, wow, somebody else other than us understands.
  • And they're not of color.
  • And that was the defining moment for me.
  • BARBARA TURNER: And I think when Gary also,
  • when he teamed up with Sue Cowell
  • and that led to Pat Cory Doniger.
  • It was in his meeting with Pat Cory Doniger
  • and they sat and developed the Many Men Many Voices,
  • which is behavioral intervention that is now called the DEBI.
  • And is recognized by the CDC and in their curriculum
  • of behavioral interventions for effective--
  • for reaching men who have sex with men.
  • And it is now a national model.
  • But when that-- the development of that
  • really realized that they were really on to something.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Is there any memorable stories--
  • without giving names or specific details--
  • working with a client, working with youth or something,
  • that really kind of dawned in you says,
  • yeah, we're really doing important work here?
  • ARLISHA MASSEY: Oh.
  • Oh, yes.
  • The very first time when we were doing a notification-- back
  • then, I don't know if they still do it,
  • we'd actually go after we've tested
  • and it come back positive, we would actually go and deliver,
  • it has to be in twos, deliver the results.
  • And there was this particular young man
  • that he just thought his life was over.
  • And I stayed there for about five hours.
  • I wouldn't leave until I was sure that he was OK.
  • And And it was tough on me, it really
  • was, to see this grown man cry, thinking his life is over.
  • And I'm like, wow, how many others never even find out
  • until the end?
  • Then I have a humorous one I'll tell you later.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Barb, with you, I mean--
  • BARBARA TURNER: I think--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: --is there that moment where you realized,
  • and I'm sure there's many, but where you realized yeah,
  • what I'm doing here is--
  • is an important work to do?
  • BARBARA TURNER: When I was doing youth group,
  • 10 years ago, when we were in Sibley Tower.
  • That's where Mocha had the first location,
  • their first independent location in Sibley Tower.
  • And we were doing the monthly, or excuse me,
  • the weekly youth groups.
  • And listening to youth, seeing youth interact
  • with one another, being themselves,
  • seeing youth come into my group as one gender,
  • going to the bathroom and coming back
  • and me not recognizing them, because they
  • were another gender when they returned from the bathroom.
  • But having that space, where they can express that
  • and do that.
  • And then at the same time, listening to them in group.
  • And I really didn't realize this,
  • that when they saw each other on the street,
  • they still weren't able to acknowledge each other,
  • even though they were sisters in the group,
  • they were brothers in the group.
  • They shared these common experiences.
  • But when they were in the street with their friends
  • they would not--
  • they would tell me they would nod to each other,
  • or give each other some type of acknowledgment.
  • But they still would not speak to one another.
  • At that time, I realized how important
  • that space was of Mocha, for them to have that place
  • to collectively come together and be who they naturally are.
  • Because it's still-- they weren't
  • able to express that in their everyday lives
  • out and walking through midtown plaza at that time,
  • or wherever they may be.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Just have to deal with it.
  • So let's jump forward 15, 20 years.
  • When did Mocha start?
  • BARBARA TURNER: Was it '90?
  • Or was it--
  • ARLISHA MASSEY: '92?
  • No.
  • It was in the 90s, early 90s.
  • '92 or '93, I don't know specifically.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
  • So I want to talk about Mocha today and the kind of work
  • that you're doing there.
  • Has things changed?
  • Are the barriers still there within the community?
  • BARBARA TURNER: Oh.
  • As things are now we still have barriers reaching out
  • to the community.
  • We still-- well, we still have barriers
  • with the African-American community.
  • We're allowed at the table now, but as long as we don't
  • talk too much about what we do.
  • You know?
  • But at the same token, people in the community
  • are seeing the need for Mocha.
  • We're being asked to speak more.
  • We're being asked to be part of the larger stream representing
  • as we organize and move forward.
  • Working with the young adults, we're
  • seeing they're able to express themselves.
  • We have seen a lot of gender identity changing.
  • They're being able to express their gender identity now,
  • both in the office and out of the office.
  • And we're able to give them that support
  • and steer them in the direction that they
  • need to be steered in.
  • So I'm very excited about that.
  • The work that we're doing we have a tremendous amount
  • of support groups at Mocha.
  • We're doing interventions.
  • Again, our numbers are extremely high for men of color
  • who are same sex practicing.
  • But we have several interventions
  • that we're now starting to focus on to address these needs.
  • And Mocha has gone from the name change.
  • We're no longer Men of Color Health Awareness Project.
  • We are now the Mocha center, which
  • is more inclusive of the whole community of Rochester.
  • So not just focusing on men, we're focusing on lesbians.
  • We have a focus on transgender.
  • And our center is open to everyone.
  • And our services are more reflective of that.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Let's expand on that a little bit.
  • Let's talk about that evolution in Mocha and where it is today.
  • And why it's important to evolve beyond just the men that
  • are on the down low.
  • BARBARA TURNER: Yeah.
  • We had to expand past the men on the down low,
  • even though that still is a big segment of the population
  • that we are still trying to reach out to.
  • And it is still it's difficult for us.
  • And in doing that, we have to go to mainstream
  • African-American bars and places where
  • we feel as though they attend.
  • But in order to be inclusive in the community of Rochester
  • and adapt our programming as such,
  • we really needed to focus.
  • We've had much more of a youth focus
  • because that's where we saw the biggest growing
  • number of the population.
  • And so we adapted as such.
  • And our grant have allowed us to adapt as such.
  • ARLISHA MASSEY: Now, even though I'm not with Mocha,
  • I've got to say about my evolving
  • I've seen a big change in--
  • not a huge change, but a change in the community
  • in general's perception of a lot of transgender.
  • I'm actually seeing transgender people
  • working in mainstream areas that I've seen at Mocha events.
  • I'm like, wow, you've got that much confidence to go just how
  • you are and apply for that job. .
  • And I see them and they're just as happy.
  • And I'm sure their coworkers are more accepting
  • than they probably were--
  • because they're accepting of themselves.
  • Because they've got that confidence that, you know,
  • confidence building that you guys do at the Mocha Center.
  • BARBARA TURNER: And African Queens
  • was our support group for transgender men
  • to women, which I think that allowed that to happen.
  • Yeah.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, it's interesting
  • that you mentioned that because there's
  • that one character on Glee now, the African-American gentleman
  • who's transgender.
  • And you know, and it's just it's accepted.
  • ARLISHA MASSEY: Yeah.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Which kind of brings me to the question.
  • I'm going way back and I'm--
  • I don't remember the date on this,
  • but I think it probably predates Mocha.
  • But you know, when Magic Johnson came out
  • that he's HIV positive.
  • Did any of you remember that moment
  • and the impact it may have had on the kind of work
  • that you guys were doing?
  • I think it did predate Mocha.
  • ARLISHA MASSEY: It was even prior to me
  • working at AIDS Rochester.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.
  • OK.
  • It just-- his name popped up in my head.
  • And was like, I wonder if that had anything--
  • BARBARA TURNER: Well, I was working in mental health
  • at the field.
  • And I had a lot of friends that were working
  • at AIDS Rochester at the time.
  • But it just really gave a face--
  • I mean, as was Rock Hudson gave a face to the disease--
  • when Magic Johnson came out and said that he was HIV positive,
  • it gave a face to the African-American community.
  • Because no longer was this a gay white disease.
  • It showed that African-Americans can indeed,
  • if you're not protected, heterosexual African-Americans
  • can as well, contract the virus.
  • So it didn't-- him coming out with that did quite a bit
  • for the community, and still does.
  • You know, it still does.
  • As far as medication adherence, you
  • know, that you can live a long time with the virus
  • if you take care of yourself and you adhere to your medications.
  • So he is a testimony to all that.
  • And life doesn't stop.
  • Because it used to be a death sentence.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: You're in an interesting position
  • because you're a lesbian woman of color
  • dealing with what initially was an organization for men
  • of color--
  • And talk to me about that.
  • Because I'm not sure where I'm going
  • with this but particularly within communities of color,
  • the women are the anchors.
  • And the women are the driving force in those communities.
  • And I think there's a connection there with the kind of work
  • that you're doing for this organization,
  • I'm assuming other women as well.
  • You know, when it finally came to light
  • that we have to do with this issue with men of color,
  • how did you get involved with it?
  • What was it that drew you to that particular community need?
  • BARBARA TURNER: Again, like I told you,
  • I was approached by GAGV when they did not
  • have an out lesbian of color.
  • I think how I become involved in everything in this community
  • is because I'm out and of color.
  • And there's always been a need for it
  • and the lack of visibility as far as black lesbians.
  • You know, so my visibility is what has involved me
  • in a lot of causes and a lot of boards
  • and a lot of involvement in the gay community.
  • But also my personal relationships,
  • my personal relationship with Gary.
  • And then my personal relationship
  • with other HIV positive men that have since passed and gone on
  • has really involved me in the Rays of Hope conference.
  • My personal involvement with Sharon Haskins,
  • who has gone on, has kept me involved and engaged
  • in this field.
  • And I believe also what keeps me involved
  • now is seeing the positive that we've done, seeing now the kids
  • that I worked with in youth group 10 years ago,
  • or that are now 30 years old, and are working
  • in professional positions, and are doing
  • great things in our community.
  • Also, the need is still there, seeing these high numbers
  • that people are not protecting themselves.
  • Women being the anchoring force, as you said, in this I think,
  • because I'm a little bit older, and I do have a lot of history
  • with the organization, I'm a parent
  • and I have a child who was involved with the Mocha groups
  • in the early days, who even though my daughter is
  • heterosexual, she had two-- she has two moms.
  • So it put her in a very unique position, where she could--
  • she was a child of two gay moms.
  • And so-- and so I do have the parental-ish type
  • of feeling too.
  • So when people do come to me, and the young adults now
  • come to me, I think they feel as though they
  • are getting very authentic and accurate information.
  • And to them, that's important.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Kind of jumping all over place
  • here but when we you were talking about particularly
  • early on reaching men of color, trying
  • to get to the men that are on the down low, get them condoms,
  • and get them information.
  • It would seem to me that getting to the women of those community
  • and getting them educating would be also another way of breaking
  • through those barriers.
  • I'm assuming that's kind of what had happened, that you
  • guys went down that road.
  • Or I could be totally wrong.
  • ARLISHA MASSEY: No.
  • I wouldn't say we really approached the women
  • in the community.
  • Because again, like you said, the women
  • are anchor in a community of color in most cases.
  • But it's usually backed by religion and that's the thing.
  • So to go to a woman--
  • let's say me, as a man of, you know, gay man of color--
  • I go and I want to talk to a woman about what's
  • going on in her son's life.
  • If they're backed by religion, they're
  • going be like, get out of my face.
  • You're sinning.
  • You're not going to put that corruption in my child's mind.
  • You know.
  • So I think that's why--
  • well, that would be one of the reasons
  • why I wouldn't approach the anchor women--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I was kind of thinking
  • in terms of, OK, this guy that's on the down low is also
  • sleeping with this woman.
  • If we can get that woman educated and protect her son.
  • ARLISHA MASSEY: We initially, in my days of Mocha,
  • when we started, I guess that's when we met up with Barb,
  • I think.
  • And you advocated for dental dams and so on.
  • So then we started actually in the bars
  • as we'd do an outreach with the condoms we
  • were given dental dams, female condoms, you know.
  • So if the guy don't want to do it, she had a choice.
  • And she didn't have to use his condom.
  • She can use her condom.
  • BARBARA TURNER: Usually, it's very difficult
  • in the African-American community--
  • I worked for another agency, which
  • was a heterosexual sexual of color prevention agency.
  • And I would give talks to younger black women.
  • And you know, the term is, well, I don't need it.
  • My man's not cheating.
  • My man's not doing it.
  • My man better not be.
  • Well, I would immediately call my friend who
  • worked for the county of Monroe Health Department
  • and ask her what were the stats last month for chlamydia,
  • gonorrhea, and HIV?
  • And write it on the board as we were speaking.
  • And like, this is the community that we live in.
  • And this is what's going on.
  • So who do you think is getting all these things, you know?
  • And I would have to start with the numbers
  • and then work my way backwards.
  • But still, you know, in a community
  • it's a double edged sword.
  • Because from an African-American standpoint, men are known--
  • or it's acceptable to a certain extent for African-American men
  • to be promiscuous.
  • But then you're dealing with the African-American woman who
  • says, well, that's not my man.
  • Well, it's somebody's man.
  • So it is very hard.
  • And then if you do approach your man with the condom,
  • then you're giving the-- you're giving him
  • a mixed message that he's either being promiscuous,
  • or heaven forbid, if you're thinking he's gay,
  • or on the down low.
  • You know, then you can-- you're opening
  • the door for domestic violence.
  • So it's better to teach condom negotiation
  • from the beginning of a relationship
  • rather than waiting till you're in the midst of a relationship.
  • So that was the approach that we talk for newly
  • forming relationships.
  • How do you start talking about this?
  • I'm also trained in the intervention system, which
  • trains in condom negotiation.
  • And it does actually have the women practice the skills
  • when they go home.
  • ARLISHA MASSEY: I'll tell you an interesting story.
  • Back when I was doing outreach with Mocha
  • and we would go fill up the bars with condoms and everything,
  • well, unbeknownst to me the community saw me.
  • They would say, oh--
  • BARBARA TURNER: The condom guy.
  • ARLISHA MASSEY: --the condom man.
  • I'd have ladies coming up to me.
  • I have guys I have sex workers coming to me.
  • So I sold this one car I had.
  • And I used to have so many condoms in the back.
  • So I cleaned everything out.
  • I get this call from this guy.
  • You've got to tell my girl, man, these are not my condoms.
  • They're not my condoms.
  • I try to explain to her.
  • So I had to actually go there, explain to his girlfriend
  • that I'll take the rest of these condoms.
  • I didn't know they had went down in the wheel well.
  • No, they're not his.
  • This is what I do.
  • I work for Mocha Project.
  • And finally, I convinced her.
  • But it was so funny.
  • I mean, she was really upset.
  • But yeah.
  • I was known as the condom man.
  • They'd see my car and they would run right up to my car
  • like I was selling crack.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: When history looks back at Mocha
  • and more specifically the work that you guys have been doing
  • with Mocha, what do you want future generations to know
  • about, you know, what Mocha--
  • I don't want to say what Mocha was because it's still around--
  • but about the work that Mocha is doing?
  • You know, what do you want future generations
  • to know most about why Mocha was necessary?
  • ARLISHA MASSEY: If you see something happen
  • in your community and no one's doing anything to change it,
  • be willing to step up to the plate.
  • It might be just you.
  • But if you step up to the plate, others are going to follow you.
  • If you're the head, the body will follow.
  • BARBARA TURNER: And I think it attests right now, to our new--
  • to Mocha's mission statement now, that has changed
  • over the years and evolved.
  • But right now it is improving the health and wellness
  • of the LGBT community of color.
  • And it's just that simple.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So I'm gonna section these questions.
  • So Barb I want to speak to you a little bit--
  • may still have time here-- about lesbian women of color.
  • You don't hear a lot about lesbian women of color.
  • You don't hear a lot about the groups that you guys have.
  • You know, you're almost this little,
  • again, this little niche group out there
  • that is not very visible.
  • Can you talk to me about that?
  • Just talk to me about your experience
  • about being a lesbian woman of color,
  • particularly here in Rochester.
  • BARBARA TURNER: Oh.
  • It's very difficult. It's really difficult as far as Rochester.
  • Because at one point we had SUITS,
  • Sisters United In Two Spirits, which we did model
  • from the male group that Arlisha talked about,
  • that was the beginning of Mocha.
  • But I think the Rochester community is very segregated.
  • The Rochester lesbian community of color
  • is very segregated by class.
  • It's very segregated by class.
  • And it's very segregated by age.
  • So you just find various small clicks within it.
  • And it's very hard to bring them all together.
  • You know, and those clicks are very, you know,
  • like I know where a certain population hangs out.
  • I know where the younger population hangs out.
  • Really, there's no place where the older population
  • and the ones with family, they kind of do the house thing.
  • You know?
  • So it's very cliquish.
  • And it's been very difficult.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Can you just expand on that a little bit
  • about the difficulties?
  • About the-- I don't want to say assimilated into the overall
  • LGBT community--
  • but finding your place within the LGBT community.
  • BARBARA TURNER: As far as me personally finding my place
  • in the LGBT--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Women of color.
  • BARBARA TURNER: Well, I don't know if women--
  • I don't know if a lot of the women of color
  • want to assimilate into the LGBT community.
  • I think they just-- they're very comfortable with their own--
  • with the segment of the population that they fit in,
  • whether it's color outside the line crew, or Lez Rock
  • is another crew.
  • I think they're very comfortable in their crews that they're in,
  • or their groups that they're in.
  • And they're not trying to assimilate into the larger LGBT
  • community.
  • And the larger LGBT community never
  • did much to outreach to lesbians of color.
  • One, there was never a financial--
  • there was never any financial gain
  • by reaching out to that community.
  • There was a financial gain to reach out to the men of color.
  • Because of the HIV infection rates,
  • there was grant money associated with reaching out
  • to that population.
  • So it became a very big population
  • to reach out to for financial reasons.
  • But there was never that association
  • with the lesbians of color.
  • So it really did drift by the wayside.
  • There's never been any real outreach to reach out to them.
  • And as a result, they never reciprocated
  • by trying to reach out to the--
  • if you ever go to our pride picnic in the summertime,
  • you will see how segmented the lesbian of color population is.
  • There's this group under a tree.
  • There's that group under a tree.
  • And there's another group under a tree.
  • And then you have Dianne Conway and myself
  • mingling with everyone.
  • You know, and that's just the way it is.
  • So they've always been very comfortable
  • in their own communities.
  • And they had to form their own communities
  • as a result for their support.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Again, I'm just kind of exploring.
  • I'm not even sure where I'm going with it
  • but are we then missing out on something?
  • That you know, the general LGBT community
  • not reaching out to lesbian women of color, you know,
  • is there something that--
  • that we're missing on?
  • Or is it (unintelligible)?
  • Is it the fact that you don't need us?
  • You're having a good old time on your own.
  • Why do you need us?
  • BARBARA TURNER: Well, I think that, you know,
  • there's strength in numbers.
  • You know, and I didn't realize that until I
  • went to the march on-- the LGBT march
  • on Washington, that visibility is power.
  • And yes, I think everything is needed.
  • And it does need to be inclusive at some point.
  • You know, we do need to make a concertive outreach
  • to bring the LGBT--
  • to bring the lesbians of color into it.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I just realized how I should ask this question.
  • BARBARA TURNER: OK.
  • Go ahead.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: What is it about the lesbian
  • women of color community that the rest of us
  • should know about?
  • BARBARA TURNER: Oh.
  • Boy, you put a lot of weight on me for that one.
  • The lesbian-- what is it about the lesbian
  • of color communities that you should know?
  • You should know that it's very diverse.
  • We are very often mothers.
  • And that is something that's very different.
  • Biological mothers, and that's very different from the lesbian
  • community that's not of color.
  • Because of the heavy religious tones
  • and expectations that were placed of us, a lot of us
  • had to assimilate into--
  • try to assimilate into heterosexual relationships,
  • which resulted in children being born.
  • So that's one thing that's very different.
  • And usually we come out a little bit later or we're bisexual,
  • or we go back and forth.
  • Because we've had to have relationships with men
  • to keep up appearances, or as one woman told me,
  • she had to satisfy her mother.
  • And she had to get married.
  • So she got married to a very close friend of hers.
  • And she still lives as heterosexual.
  • But-- so very often these are the type of relationships
  • that we do have.
  • You will find a lot of married lesbians as a result of this.
  • So that's I think primarily-- and it
  • is because of the heavy influence of religion.
  • And it might not be the religion that I have right now.
  • But it's the expectation of my family's religion.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Do you foresee in the near future
  • of trying to break down those walls that separate us?
  • Or reaching you know--
  • well, both groups have to do some outreach to each other.
  • But do you foresee the need for that?
  • And also, how do you think that will come about?
  • BARBARA TURNER: I don't know if we'll break down those walls.
  • But what I think in the future, it's being more inclusive
  • and understanding that these are also people in our community.
  • And these are people in our community.
  • They might be just as LGBTQIST as you and I.
  • But the circumstances are different.
  • So it's understanding we're not all this cookie cutter, rah rah
  • love and sports lesbians that we're used to seeing.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Just making sure I didn't miss anything here.
  • I think we're good.
  • Evelyn always has questions, which means
  • I usually missed something.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: (unintelligible)
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: We'll pretend I'm asking this question.
  • BARBARA TURNER: Probably got an answer but--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Breaking down those stigmas,
  • because there's such a strong sense of religious faith
  • among the community of color, what about working
  • with the churches within those religious faiths
  • to try and reach the people that you need to reach?
  • BARBARA TURNER: Since I've been working at Mocha
  • we've been very involved with BLOCA,
  • which is the Black Leadership Commission on AIDS,
  • and it's mostly working with ministers,
  • African-American ministers in the Rochester area.
  • And we did sponsor, or co-sponsored with them,
  • the World AIDS Day celebration.
  • It's been difficult. I will not tell you--
  • they value us at the table.
  • But then again they don't really want to hear us at the table.
  • During the World AIDS Day celebration
  • our youth from Mocha led a youth rally
  • that made it on the cover of the DNC Sunday's paper.
  • It was on the local section with the headline,
  • The Hope For the Future.
  • And it had two of our youth, one male, one transgendering female
  • to male young person.
  • They did not put our name.
  • They did not put their name on there.
  • And they did not put Mocha's name.
  • Even when the news captured it they did not use Mocha.
  • They used the-- they went back to the reverends
  • and the reverends in their article
  • never once mentioned Mocha's name in there.
  • ARLISHA MASSEY: I think a lot of the church leaders
  • are afraid to offend the rest of their congregation.
  • You know, they might very well feel
  • like that LBGT community they should all be treated equal.
  • But they wouldn't dare say it across the pulpit.
  • BARBARA TURNER: No.
  • ARLISHA MASSEY: Oh, my God.
  • My membership will fall.
  • There was one minister here.
  • He's since passed, Dr. McCree.
  • He was so open and loving to the LBGT community
  • until about I would say 60 percent of his congregation
  • were LBGT.
  • Some were under cover but they were there.
  • And they liked his message.
  • He was one that wasn't afraid to stand up.
  • But since his passing, I haven't been as involved with Mocha,
  • you know, since his passing, but he was--
  • had other leaders taken the same role that he had taken,
  • I think we'd be in a completely different spot.
  • BARBARA TURNER: We have a few that
  • still refer to Reverend McCullough,
  • I mean Reverend McCree, as their mentor.
  • ARLISHA MASSEY: Yes.
  • BARBARA TURNER: And those are the few
  • that will come to any AIDS celebrations
  • that we have and will speak up.
  • However, they're few and far between.
  • Again, when we had the service we
  • made sure that we had a lesbian minister on the program.
  • The day of the service, her name was excluded from the program.
  • She showed up in full Reverend outfit.
  • And we reminded them that she was
  • to deliver a certain portion of the programming.
  • The Reverend who was at the host church excluded her from that.
  • And very outwardly excluded her from that.
  • So you know, we still-- it's not all of the ministers.
  • But the ministers are trying to educate the other ministers.
  • But it's a very, very slow process.
  • One of the ministers at Mount Olive the Baptist church,
  • then announced that he was HIV positive.
  • And he has been on some panels talking, which again, takes it
  • away from being a gay disease.
  • But it doesn't help as far as ministering to the gay members
  • of their church.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: It does bring up one more question.
  • In the development of Mocha and being out in the community
  • and trying to reach this population,
  • was there any significant backlash?
  • Was there any times where you kind of really
  • had to get up your back bone, really get in there
  • and say, no, you're not gonna be (unintelligible) here.
  • You're not gonna get rid of us?
  • ARLISHA MASSEY: I'm sure there were.
  • But I didn't have the occasion of experiencing it.
  • But some of us left it all up to Gary.
  • But yeah, he really--
  • he pounded because he fought for what he believed in.
  • Yeah.
  • There was times that he had it very hard,
  • even going against other organizations.
  • Gary would try to apply for a grant
  • and this other organization would
  • try to cut-- undercut him to keep him
  • from getting the grant.
  • You know, so there were some struggles.
  • Absolutely.
  • And I'm sure they're still having some struggles.
  • BARBARA TURNER: There are churches
  • that we were allowed to.
  • And it's one of the same churches you spoke of,
  • that, you know, since that Reverend has passed
  • on new reverends have come in.
  • And they're OK, well, you can come and do HIV testing.
  • But you can't give out any information, which how can
  • you teach people to take care of themselves
  • if you can't give out any information.
  • You know?
  • Sort of like the Catholic church not
  • letting us hand out condoms.
  • You know, when the HIV infection rate is so high.
  • So you know--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: All right.
  • Thank you.
  • ARLISHA MASSEY: All right.
  • BARBARA TURNER: You're welcome.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Let's get those microphones off of you.
  • ARLISHA MASSEY: You're not gonna sell me a house.