Video Interview, Bess Watts and Anne Tischer, January 21, 2013
- KEVIN INDOVINO: [INAUDIBLE]
- This is a conversation between us.
- In your mind, there's no cameras here,
- no lights, all that stuff.
- The most important thing to remember,
- is that the audience is not going
- to hear my question to you.
- BESS WATTS: OK.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So when you make a response,
- or answer a question, you kind of have to set it up first.
- Thinking OK, is the audience going
- to know what I'm talking about here?
- Set it up first for the audience and then answer the question.
- ANNE TISCHER: Quasi-repeat your question.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.
- Exactly.
- If you get lost for words--
- ANNE TISCHER: We tell people not to wear dark clothes
- when they come to our house.
- BESS WATTS: Yeah, between the cat and the glitter.
- All right.
- Let's just show them this pony.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
- So, first and foremost, let's start with you, Bess.
- I need the correct spelling of your first and last name,
- how you would want it appearing on screen.
- BESS WATTS: Bess Watts.
- B-E-S-S W-A-T-T-S.
- ANNE TISCHER: Anne Tischer, A-N-N-E T-I-S-C-H-E-R.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Let's just start out with some general questions
- here, before we get into all of the work and activism stuff.
- A lot of it's going to be kind of fishing for me,
- because I don't know a lot about you.
- Let's talk about how you guys met.
- And then we'll move from that to, eventually,
- getting married in Washington Square Park.
- BESS WATTS: How did we meet?
- We knew each other for several years.
- About seven, I think.
- And then we met at a Christmas party that friends of ours
- were putting on in Hornell.
- ANNE TISCHER: I had a cup marked single and employed,
- and Bess picked me up.
- BESS WATTS: And that appealed to me at the time.
- ANNE TISCHER: I didn't know, previously,
- that she was single.
- And she was down in the southern tier.
- And so we argued politics while everyone else was
- enjoying the Christmas party.
- And afterwards, I wrote her a thank you letter, which
- she totally misinterpreted.
- And it took a while before she realized
- that I was hitting on her.
- BESS WATTS: The second thank you letter
- arrived sprayed with perfume.
- And I got the hint then.
- And then we courted for about six months through letters,
- and we still both have the letters.
- And we really got to know each other through correspondence.
- And then we moved in together.
- And we've been together eighteen years now.
- ANNE TISCHER: Nineteen.
- BESS WATTS: Nineteen.
- We always debate on-- we're always off a year.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So, roughly, you guys met around '93, '94?
- BESS WATTS: Late '94, and we got married in 2004,
- in Washington Square Park.
- ANNE TISCHER: In an act of civil disobedience.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Right.
- So before we get to that, I just kind of want
- a general sense of the 1980s, early '90s,
- before you guys met.
- What was it like for single lesbian women
- here in Rochester.
- What was the scene like?
- BESS WATTS: I'm not from Rochester.
- I am from Utah, and I was in the army, and lived in San Diego.
- So I was in the army before, don't ask, don't tell.
- But still you couldn't be gay and be in the army.
- And that was in the '80s, during the disco era, and it was hard.
- One of the reasons I got out of the military
- is because you have to live with integrity.
- And not being able to be out is why
- I decided to be honorably discharged and got
- a job in San Diego for libraries.
- But I had a girl in every port, and I enjoyed being a lesbian.
- But it was tough not being out at work, and out to my family,
- really.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: What brought you to Rochester?
- BESS WATTS: I actually met someone
- in the military who lived in Hornell.
- And I moved to be with her.
- And then that relationship really didn't work out.
- But I worked at Alfred University for seven years.
- And Anne and I had mutual friends,
- and we ended up getting together.
- And to this day, she is my true love.
- It was meant to be.
- I knew instantly.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: What about you Anne,
- before you met Bess, what was going on, what was life like?
- ANNE TISCHER: When I was younger,
- there were no lesbians that I knew at Rochester.
- I didn't even know that I was lesbian.
- I accidentally fell in love with a woman
- who I had been spending a lot of time.
- Previously, if you had asked me, I assumed that--
- I mean, I already owned three bridesmaids dresses.
- I was raised to be the ultimate heterosexual,
- but I fell in love head over heels.
- Did not know what was happening, fell in love.
- And that was my introduction to the gay community.
- And, by nature, I am an assertive sort of person.
- So I did not necessarily suffer from the coming out process
- in ways that other people have.
- And unfortunately, I didn't understand
- the process, and how difficult it is for some people.
- So I did a hit and run with my family.
- I said, oh, by the way, I'm gay.
- I'll see you.
- And so, we had five years of separation.
- But in that time, I actually developed great friendships,
- and went out to bars for the first time.
- And developed a very, very close knit group of friends,
- some of whom are still friends.
- And so, because I was-- by nature--
- an extrovert, when I came out, I came out at work,
- I came out all over.
- I was a lipstick lesbian in high heels, and that was that.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: But were there any difficult--
- You described that because of your nature,
- it wasn't so difficult for you, but during that time period,
- where were lesbian women finding information?
- Where were they meeting other lesbians?
- ANNE TISCHER: The Gay Alliance, actually.
- There were coming out groups being led.
- And I, in fact, did come to a couple of coming out things.
- There were some women's tea dances that I attended.
- Nancy and Lee Doohan at the time,
- were very involved in the social aspects.
- And then there were the bars.
- And I went to Alan Street Bar in my high heels
- and cute little skirt, and had to dodge
- my very first fistfight.
- It was quite exciting, you know.
- There were supports out there, if you were looking for them.
- I very quickly developed a tribe of friends that I relied on.
- And so, we camped together, we vacationed, everything.
- And I think that that was very common.
- For people to develop a safe circle, and pretty much
- stay within that group.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: When you eventually
- made it up here to Rochester, what were you finding in
- regards to how supportive this community
- was for lesbian women?
- BESS WATTS: I found it was hard.
- Well, I was in love with Anne, and we
- got involved with our church.
- And it was through our church that we developed a community.
- And it took a long time for me to learn
- about the GLBT community in Rochester.
- But then, I wasn't really seeking.
- And I'm not a bar person, per se.
- And I know that when I was in the army,
- that's how people met.
- And I actually was beaten up once
- when I was trying to go into a bar.
- And it was an anti-gay hate crime,
- but I couldn't report it at the time.
- But for Rochester here, once I discovered the community,
- I ended up just loving the community.
- I think Rochester is very fortunate to have
- such a vibrant GLBT community.
- And it's really thanks to the Gay Alliance,
- because anything you want to know, what bars to go to,
- what restaurant, who's inclusive.
- And there was coming out workshops at the Gay Alliance.
- And this is how, actually, the speakers bureau training
- went in.
- And I was through the church when
- we started working with the Empire State Pride Agenda.
- It was through the Gay Alliance that we
- got to meet people through the training that they did.
- So it was wonderful.
- ANNE TISCHER: The Gay Alliance has
- done a surprising amount of support
- for activism in general.
- In terms of mentoring and providing space,
- just the sheer encouragement.
- There were times in our travels when we would hit a brick wall.
- And Scott Fearing, or Sue Cowell,
- there would be someone here that would show you
- a different way of doing it.
- Or a different way of thinking.
- It's been it's been, largely, I would
- have to say, the Gay Alliance has
- fostered an incredible amount of change, and safety.
- BESS WATTS: Let's not forget the empty closet.
- If you want information, just pick up the Empty Closet,
- it's a wonderful resource.
- OK.
- Two things I'm going to follow up with you.
- Because you said something that--
- and forgive me because this might
- be a sensitive subject for you, but you
- talked about getting beat up once when coming out of a bar.
- BESS WATTS: No--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: A lot of people are talking about some
- of the things that we had to deal
- with back in those early days.
- BESS WATTS: It's so funny, because I remember
- the evening I was stationed in Germany,
- in Heidelberg, Germany.
- And you had to take the train to go to Mannheim to this lesbian
- bar.
- There were five of us, and we all
- played on the same sports team.
- And I had a lot of friends, and cool lesbians.
- And we always went, every Friday or Saturday night, to this bar.
- And in Germany there's--
- I forget the name of it, but a walking space.
- No cars travel back and forth.
- And you had to go down into this basement like structure
- to ring the doorbell and be allowed into this club.
- There were four of us going to this club.
- And some gentleman had went to the bar,
- and they were denied access, and they were upset.
- And then they found out that it was a lesbian bar.
- And the timing, we were coming, and somebody I was with
- was holding hands with another woman.
- And they just got violent all of the sudden.
- And I got my front teeth knocked out.
- I was hit--
- I remember the fist coming.
- My friend that was with me got cut on the cheek.
- We're laying on the sidewalk, on the pavement.
- I'm bleeding, she's screaming, and they ran off.
- There were four men, and all these lesbians come out
- of the bar, and what happened?
- And all of a sudden you hear the polizei, the local police,
- coming.
- And we realized that we could not be there,
- because if they knew that we were at a lesbian bar, then
- we would be discharged.
- And subjected to all these questions.
- And so we're bleeding all over, we get in the cab,
- we go to the local hospital the military one in Heidelberg.
- My friend had to get stitches.
- We made up this ridiculous story about how
- I was playing softball, I was swinging a bat,
- I knocked my teeth out.
- It was a lie, and everybody knew it,
- but the people got away with assault.
- And we couldn't do anything about it.
- And we had to go to work on Monday like nothing happened.
- So it was just one of those things.
- And that was really one of the deciding factors.
- How can you live authentically if you always
- have to deny a core identity.
- And it really haunted me, and I couldn't talk about it
- for years.
- But it is part of life's experiences.
- And I was, while I was in the army, called in to see ID.
- Because I was on a list and I always joked,
- if I'm not number one on the list,
- I don't want to be on it at all.
- But I had to deny, no I'm not, I don't have a girlfriend,
- no, are you kidding, I'm not one of those.
- And it's just degrading.
- And thank God, how many years later, twenty-five years,
- that don't ask, don't tell, has finally been repealed.
- And people can live openly without hiding.
- You don't have to burn your letters,
- you don't have to destroy parts of your identity,
- and be true to yourself.
- ANNE TISCHER: We actually know several really sad stories
- of people who ended up getting kicked out
- of the military, just short of their pensions, et cetera.
- And when don't ask, don't tell, failed to pass at one point,
- because of Bess' stories, and some
- of these other circumstances, I went down with Get Equal,
- and got arrested on the White House fence.
- I can't think of any topic more offensive
- than abusing the military service personnel
- for their sexual orientation, when
- they're willing to die for this country.
- BESS WATTS: Yes.
- I can't believe she spent the night in jail.
- At this time I was with this Health and Safety Conference
- in Lake Placid.
- And it was all orchestrated.
- The bail was set up, and she was with people,
- they knew what they were doing.
- It wasn't a fly by the night protest.
- But to get a phone call that says,
- your wife's been arrested, and we
- don't know if she'll get out tonight,
- she'll probably spend the night in jail.
- Here I am, in my bed, thinking of her and the cold cement
- floor.
- And then, the next day, it was the time of her life,
- to be perfectly frank.
- There's a reason I call her, Attila my Hun.
- ANNE TISCHER: And what was interesting,
- is I met Dan Choi when I was down there.
- And described why I had driven down,
- and described Bess' experiences, and some of these other folks.
- And he cried, because people who really were fighting
- the fight for don't ask, don't tell, were so isolated
- and just felt so overwhelmed, because they
- couldn't get a lot of support.
- It's an outrage.
- It still is.
- The fact that the families, right now,
- are still treated as second class citizens.
- BESS WATTS: It will change.
- I'm convinced.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So let's get into some political activism
- and some workplace activism.
- Anne, let me just stay with you for a moment.
- What drives you?
- Because it's not the average Jane, or Joe,
- who can get up there, and get arrested on the White House
- fence.
- Where does that passion and then that drive come from?
- ANNE TISCHER: I think I was raised
- by parents who encouraged you to act with integrity.
- And each of them had family stories
- where they did heroic, or courageous things.
- Either on the job, or something.
- So when you grow up hearing a little story like that,
- it sets expectations.
- And I'm the oldest of four.
- And just had always been taught, you take responsibility.
- I had a whole series of experiences in my life.
- But one of the things that made it possible
- for me to comfortably advocate, and be vocal about being LGBT,
- I was a fat kid.
- So I had to fight the battle of self-esteem
- when I was overweight and people were picking on me then.
- And because I mastered that, by the time I got to the stages
- where I'm facing my own in unequal treatment,
- I had already gone through stages
- of fighting for women's rights, fighting anti-war Vietnam
- protests, the American-Indian thing.
- Because I had been bullied, or attempted bullied, as a kid.
- And so, it just translated.
- And bit by bit you become stronger.
- And for me, becoming an abused minority was overnight.
- Because who knew I was gay.
- It was eye opening to me, the prejudice.
- And if I was willing to fight for other groups,
- I was going to fight for myself.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Bess, how about you?
- BESS WATTS: Unlike Anne, I knew when I was three days old
- that I was a lesbian.
- And what prompted me-- you know what,
- I have to say, to become a fierce advocate,
- and to form a Pride at Work chapter, and to speak out,
- I have to hand it to Anne.
- And also turning fifty.
- ANNE TISCHER: That's a big thing.
- BESS WATTS: I tell my friends that when
- you reach the point when people are afraid of what they think
- of you, when you reach the point of,
- they have to worry about what I think of them.
- And when you reach that point, then you can speak out.
- I had a deathly fear of speaking in public.
- I couldn't even do an offering call at church without shaking.
- And when we formed the chapter of Pride at Work in 2007,
- which is a LGBT advocacy group under AFL-CIO,
- for gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender labor.
- I wasn't speaking for me, I was speaking for our members.
- And I felt that was easier.
- I remember a meeting where we had Senator Bruno, at the time.
- They were trying to pass this law for Family Access
- Bill, where gay families could be represented,
- and it wouldn't be in the public realm,
- it would be in the confidentiality in the family
- courts.
- And I was so scared.
- I raised my hand and I said, why haven't you passed this bill?
- They've been trying to pass it for twenty years.
- Clearly it's a women's issue, and I
- didn't feel I knew what I was talking about.
- But I did it.
- And I remember Senator Bruno going,
- let's just move the bill.
- And finally, it wasn't me that moved the bill,
- but I think that I might have helped with the tipping point.
- And I realized then that having an organization,
- and having members behind you, gives you courage
- where you might not have had it otherwise.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: A follow up with private work then.
- Talk to me a little bit about the initiation
- of a private work chapter here, locally.
- And about using the labor force to promote change.
- BESS WATTS: In 2002 I think it was, Anne's mother passed away.
- And I had to take vacation time, to take bereavement leave,
- to be with Anne.
- And my coworkers would have had bereavement leave.
- Anne had major surgery in, I think, 2004 or five.
- ANNE TISCHER: Three.
- BESS WATTS: Three.
- And I had depleted my leave bank.
- But my coworkers could have had sick leave,
- because they're married.
- And I felt that that was an injustice.
- And I went to my union president at the time at MCC,
- at Monroe Community College, Pat Wolff.
- And I said, we need to change this.
- We need domestic partner benefits for MCC.
- And she said, Bess, you do the research,
- and we'll see what we can do.
- I did the research.
- There was a lot of research material to work with.
- Kodak, Bausch & Lomb, the city of Rochester.
- All of them have domestic partner benefits.
- Monroe County does not, but that's
- another story, and another mission, if you will.
- Getting talking to Pat, and having her advocate,
- and getting domestic partner benefits,
- really turned me into an accidental advocate.
- Because we were, at the time, with Monroe County employees.
- But when we voted the contract for Monroe Community College,
- it was just for MCC, but I felt I was leaving Monroe County
- employees behind.
- And I did a lot of research.
- And we have out in equal.
- Kodak has Galaxy or Xerox, I get confused.
- A very strong pro-GLBT community, but it
- was really lacking for people in public sector.
- Or IBEW.
- Or the police union.
- So, I found that Pride at Work was the only organization that
- was available.
- And we formed a chapter.
- And as a result of that chapter, it took two years
- to cultivate relationships.
- I do a monthly report.
- We have not a lot of members, but very active members.
- And together we've really created change
- within the labor community.
- And I got to tell you, we are doing the labor community
- a huge favor.
- They've been waiting for Pride at Work.
- I say that because the people I've encountered
- say, thank god you're here.
- Because I have this employee, I don't know the language.
- Can you help me with the language for the contract?
- I have somebody that works with me in the warehouse,
- can I give her your card?
- Absolutely.
- When we first formed Pride at Work,
- we were getting calls once or twice a week.
- Hey, we got marriage now, why do I have to pay insurance
- on the health care?
- Well yes you do, it's a federal.
- So we've been such a vehicle for the community,
- and that really came into play when
- the marriage equality bill--
- we had a press conference, and all the labor leaders,
- with the exception of building and trades,
- spoke at the press conference for marriage equality.
- And that was because of the work that we
- did through Pride at Work.
- And I discovered that you have to have an organization
- to have power behind you.
- And now I'm on the National Board of Pride at Work,
- and I was just elected as the vice president of organizing
- for the national level.
- There are--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: That's OK.
- Why don't you get a drink of water?
- BESS WATTS: Yes, I will.
- Thank you.
- ANNE TISCHER: She left out a two year thing
- that I think is of very great importance.
- The reason she started Pride at Work
- is, as Monroe Community College got domestic partner benefits,
- but the county employees overall did not.
- And so we started in 2005 to speak monthly
- at the county legislature, advocating for domestic partner
- benefits for the entire county.
- And we were there two or three times, and totally naive.
- We really thought it was an oversight
- that they hadn't extended it.
- And about the third time we were there,
- Harry Bronson's son gives us a call and says,
- you girls need a little mentoring about lobbying.
- And so, what happened is we continued for years,
- every month, lobbying.
- And the more often we got no for an answer,
- the more we had to dig into deeper tactics,
- find more mentors, find other doors to go through.
- And that is how it evolved that Harry Bronson then hooked us up
- with Tom Privateer.
- And so the networking that went on.
- And that is how Bess went looking for pride at work,
- knowing that you have to have the power in order
- to create the change.
- But that two year period was funny,
- because we were wet behind the ears, and--
- BESS WATTS: Absolutely.
- ANNE TISCHER: --Naive.
- BESS WATTS: I wish we knew now, what we knew then.
- Have you worked with the county as well?
- ANNE TISCHER: I did.
- I worked in chronic care Medicaid for the county.
- And I worked with gay men who were, some of them,
- thirty year veterans.
- And unable to come out, simple as that.
- I was never in the closet.
- And previous to the county, I worked at Xerox,
- where LGBT people, certainly gay and lesbian people,
- were treated very well.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So, talk to me about the work environment.
- So talk to me a little bit about--
- you worked in one place that was very accepting.
- And then you're working for Hoping government institution
- that, to this day, is not that accepting, they won't even
- talk about it.
- Talk to me about that kind of work environment
- and the challenges and the frustrations
- that one can experience working in that kind of environment.
- ANNE TISCHER: If we had not had a little activist
- thing going on, it might have been more oppressive.
- But, by then, every time somebody said no,
- or every time somebody did something that was unjust,
- it actually created more resolve for us.
- And so I started by getting involved with the union.
- And I think that, early on, I--
- and I think also Bess--
- realized that the greatest thing we could do for LGBT equality
- was to be the most out, vocal, visible couple possible.
- And so that was my function at the county.
- That I was out and open.
- But I was likeable too.
- And so that makes it--
- if you are appreciated, and I would stick up for other people
- also--
- so, if you are accepted as a human being,
- then it's much easier to live in that type of an environment.
- It's easier for women, also.
- And the men that I knew at the county,
- I witnessed very oppressive, obnoxious behaviors there.
- After I left the county, I went to one
- of Rochester's big hospitals, where
- there is zero mandatory tolerance training.
- And I witnessed awful things happening.
- And that's where you would see same sex
- partners coming in and being quizzed about their right
- to visit.
- And I'm standing there--
- I worked for the social work department--
- and I'm standing there knowing that legally there was nothing
- that these people could do.
- And eventually you could talk to the staff, et cetera.
- But to this day, none of the hospitals in Rochester
- have mandatory tolerance or diversity training.
- BESS WATTS: But back to the Monroe County.
- When we first formed the Pride at Work,
- we expected, naively, that all these people
- would come out of the woodwork and join Pride at Work.
- Not realizing-- and we almost gave up
- forming the chapter Pride at Work.
- If it hadn't been for Scott Fearing, encountering him
- and saying that you have to reach people where they are.
- And we went to this training that he did for Nixon Peabody--
- ANNE TISCHER: Back up-- we put on a forum.
- A speaker's panel.
- BESS WATTS: That's what I was getting at, yeah.
- A speakers panel where the county employees--
- some came, but it was almost--
- ANNE TISCHER: Three people.
- BESS WATTS: --three people.
- And all it was was complaining, and not
- really wanting to do anything.
- And a real anger that they experienced.
- It was really odd, and we almost gave up.
- And as a result of that, we encountered Scott Fearing,
- you're right.
- ANNE TISCHER: And Scott had taken us.
- We told him.
- We had five panelists, and three attendees.
- And I worked with three gay people,
- so I knew there were a lot of LGBT people
- in the county, oppressed.
- And we couldn't reach them.
- Newsletters, whatever.
- There was no way to get people to respond.
- Scott had a training where he talked about,
- and this was a corporate training that he said, come.
- And he introduced us to the Cass model of sexual identity
- development, and some other tools,
- where he said that you have to meet people
- where they are in their comfort level of coming out.
- And in a big organization in particular,
- you can't necessarily raise consciousness
- from the bottom up.
- You have to create an environment that
- is safe from the top down.
- At which point, that's when Bess started drinking beer with--
- BESS WATTS: With the labor guys.
- ANNE TISCHER: --union leaders.
- Because she realized A, she had to be
- part of the power structure.
- So she became a Labor Council delegate on the executive board
- there.
- Volunteered for every committee.
- So she had to be part of the structure.
- And then had to convert hearts and minds of the leaders,
- so that perception-wise, it's a safe environment.
- And once that happened, then we started seeing a little bit
- more response.
- BESS WATTS: But I have to tell you
- that that county meeting that we did have,
- there was one person that was in that meeting that's
- still with us today.
- And that's Judy Johnson.
- And she's still a member, and she's a county employee,
- and I couldn't be more proud of her living authentically.
- She's an African-American, her gender expression is male,
- and she's proud to be a lesbian.
- And I'm proud that she's a member of Pride at Work,
- because she was there at the very beginning.
- And that that was worth it.
- Just to have that one person that
- sticks with you through the development of Pride at Work.
- And she always challenges me, and she's always a good voice.
- ANNE TISCHER: One of the things that, in order to build--
- because Bess never asked for support, for two years.
- She spent two years developing relationship with the unions.
- If there was a strike, we'd be making signs,
- we'd be showing up there and walking the picket line.
- And sometimes bringing people who weren't even
- involved in the union at all.
- But collecting money.
- When the Mott strikers out in Williamson, we would go out,
- we'd cook for them, take money out, walk the line.
- They came and marched with us in the gay pride parade.
- BESS WATTS: And distributed over 5,000 leaflets.
- And it was through those relationships,
- and you're talking Timbuktu.
- And you're talking someone probably
- hasn't heard gay all week.
- And we introduce each other, hi, I'm a lesbian.
- My name is Bess.
- Jokingly, but Anne and I always introduce each other as wife.
- This is my wife, Anne.
- And initially people are taken back.
- And the second, hey how is your wife, Anne doing?
- Or how's your wife, Bess doing?
- So language matters, and words matter.
- And we learned that early on.
- Especially to say gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender,
- because people say GLBT so they don't have to say the words.
- And so every labor meeting that we have every month,
- I make sure that I say, I'm Bess.
- I'm the gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender organization
- Pride at Work AFL-CIO.
- And it's great.
- ANNE TISCHER: And the use of humor, OK?
- We have learned so much over ten years worth of work.
- The use of humor will open doors like nothing else.
- She refers to me as Attila my Hun.
- And so, if you go in and demand your rights,
- you've already lost the battle.
- It all comes down to changing hearts and minds,
- and making people realize, hey this is your neighbor.
- We like these people.
- It's just incidental that they happen to be LGBT.
- BESS WATTS: Right.
- And we learned, and we've had mentors along the way.
- And it's like when the student is ready,
- the teacher will appear.
- We have found that in our activism.
- Linda Donahue is someone I have as a mentor in the labor
- community.
- But I remember attending something that she had.
- And she said, you don't expect people
- to show up for your event, if you don't support theirs.
- And that's really been Pride at Work's motto.
- We've been there at every strike, at every rally,
- if somebody needs something, we'll be there.
- And now, we feel that if we need help, we can ask them.
- So it's all about cultivating and building relationships.
- ANNE TISCHER: We actually use the same principles
- when we work specifically on marriage equality.
- We set up Equality Rochester.
- And use the same philosophies to build relationship
- while we made signs for every progressive organization.
- We lent our generator to the Occupy Rochester people.
- And to this day, we are members of all
- these different progressive groups.
- Well, the payback on that.
- When we were doing the big push for marriage equality,
- metro justice let us use their office space, their phone
- banks, their copies.
- Big support from these organizations.
- But again, we have done years of relationship building,
- before we did the ask.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So let's talk about marriage equality.
- Because before you even got involved with marriage equality
- activism.
- You already kind of were out there
- as a proponent for marriage equality.
- Let's talk about that this isn't to--
- can't legally say marriage.
- Civil union.
- What did you call it?
- I knew you guys, in the press, called it a marriage.
- But legally it was what?
- A civil union?
- BESS WATTS: When was this?
- ANNE TISCHER: 2004.
- BESS WATTS: 2004.
- It was considered marriage through our church.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So let's start at the beginning though.
- Let's talk about making that decision.
- BESS WATTS: OK.
- OK.
- You know what?
- We're going to get married, we're
- going to get married through our church.
- We're going to do it in Washington Square Park.
- The whole thinking behind that.
- And how important that was to maybe--
- I would think generate the bigger discussion.
- ANNE TISCHER: Actually there was a big movement at the time.
- Interfaith advocates had a lot of clergy involved
- in marriage supportive actions.
- And our denomination, which is Metropolitan Community Church,
- which was founded by Troy Perry, who was an early LGBT activist.
- BESS WATTS: And one of the plaintiffs for prop eight.
- ANNE TISCHER: And our church wanted
- to do a nationwide action.
- You're probably better at explaining this.
- BESS WATTS: A nationwide action to show
- that there's support for clergy support for marriage equality.
- And our pastor was looking for couples
- who are already committed, that are devoted to each other
- and are willing to marry.
- So we were approached and asked if we
- would want to do a marriage, publicly,
- at Washington Square Park.
- And we said, sure, why not, not realizing everything
- that it entailed.
- So we said we would, and the date
- was set for April 29th, 2004.
- And I took the day off from work,
- and it was really quite interesting,
- because I didn't ask a lot of people
- that I worked with if they wanted to come to the wedding.
- I didn't want people to feel that they had to believe in it
- or not.
- So it was odd.
- Didn't you think that?
- So, we did ask our friend, Deb Moore,
- to do a reading, who I work with.
- And the Reverend, Jim Mulcahy, asked the clergy--
- there were how many clergy?
- ANNE TISCHER: There were a dozen clergy
- from different denominations.
- BESS WATTS: Right.
- And we were interviewed for the DNC,
- probably a month prior, in March, with I forget--
- ANNE TISCHER: Jim Memut
- BESS WATTS: Jim Memut interviewed us.
- And it wasn't really related to the marriage.
- It was just about marriage equality.
- So the day the wedding took place, well, let's
- back up a little bit.
- Because we did go to City Hall to get a marriage license.
- We were the first same sex couple
- to ask for, and be refused a marriage license.
- And we were so nervous going in there.
- I'm not sure whether we thought we were going to get arrested,
- or thrown out, or something.
- We went up to the counter and the girls were just distraught.
- Wait, wait, wait.
- And they called Carolee Concklin down,
- who was the clerk at the time.
- And she came down and said, I am so glad to see you.
- She took us upstairs into a private room, handed us
- a folder of materials that she had been collecting following
- the marriage fight, and essentially said,
- find a way to sue us, because we can't give you
- a marriage license.
- BESS WATTS: And we invited her to the wedding.
- ANNE TISCHER: She has been an incredible ally, unbelievable.
- But that was one of the unexpected surprise
- supports that keeps you going.
- And we constantly have run into that.
- Where you assume there's no help out there
- and there'll be people that keep you going.
- BESS WATTS: Right.
- And the night before the wedding.
- The police liaison came to our house
- to talk to us to make sure, because he was going
- to be there with other police, to make sure
- that there was not going to be any revolt, disruption.
- Thank you.
- She finds the words for me.
- And on the day of the wedding, we
- get the Democrat and Chronicle, and our picture
- is above the fold.
- And I forget the headlines, a couple to marry today,
- or something of that effect.
- And it was a media event.
- We were getting calls from channel 10, channel 8, channel
- 9, I mean all four of the news stations.
- And it was a beautiful, windy day.
- April 29th.
- Anne loves wind, that's why I remember.
- And yellow flowers.
- Go ahead, you talk about the wedding itself.
- ANNE TISCHER: We were surprised.
- We thought we were going to do a very small--
- our rallies, and protests, and everything else,
- had been largely in the fifteen to twenty-five number.
- So to have that type of media exposure
- was surrealistic, for one thing.
- But all of a sudden, we were activists.
- And that took us out of the realm of just kind of tinkering
- with rights.
- And because we did not have a single negative response
- to that.
- And in fact, huge positives.
- My Canadian relatives, my Irish Catholic Canadian relatives,
- sent us down wedding cards.
- Our next door neighbors, Ralph and Diane,
- married for fifty years, sent us wedding presents.
- Bess' employer--
- BESS WATTS: Yeah.
- Let me talk about that for a minute.
- The day of the wedding, above the fold.
- I work at the library at MCC, and the director
- of the library that day canceled the staff meeting for anybody
- that wanted to go to the wedding.
- And the director himself came, and he videotaped the wedding,
- and it's the only video that we have of the entire wedding.
- And after that day, I felt bad, because I didn't ask
- people to come to the wedding.
- And I expected people to be unreasonable.
- And now, I have to assume good will.
- That's the difference.
- And it was a real lesson for me.
- And the Friday we went to work, after that,
- I got a call from Diane Cicero, who
- is the legal counsel, and also the Chief Diversity
- Officer of MCC.
- And I thought, oh, what did I do this time?
- And she said, Bess, if you encounter
- any negativity, if anybody harasses you in any way,
- let me know as soon as you can.
- And she has been one of the strongest advocates.
- And as a result, I think, I was appointed
- to the Diversity Council.
- There was only one protest that day,
- and it was actually kind of funny,
- because the media had to seek out that one protester.
- And all he could say was, what used
- to be done in the dark of night, is now
- being done in the light of day.
- And I'm saying, hallelujah.
- But it was just a beautiful day, and everything was positive.
- And Anne and I can tell you that, in all of our activism,
- we have not really had any negativity whatsoever--
- ANNE TISCHER: Not personally directed at us.
- There have been one or two oddballs.
- We did a tax day rally at the post office at one point.
- And the guy with the bullhorn and the crazy eyes.
- The postmaster asked him to leave the area.
- But overall, one of the greatest surprises
- has been the number of supportive people.
- Americans are fair minded.
- The press may highlight that, and every time we had a rally,
- they had to find the one or two--
- BESS WATTS: One dissent.
- ANNE TISCHER: --wingnuts.
- But generally speaking, I can say,
- when we were collecting postcards and signatures--
- and we were getting 1,000 a week at one point
- before the marriage vote--
- we would go into completely neutral--
- the rib festival-- completely neutral environments.
- And get an unbelievable amount of support.
- And even the people that could not sign it,
- it would be rare that you would run into somebody who was rude.
- They would say that their belief system wouldn't allow that.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Let me ask you this though,
- because you touched on this a little, earlier.
- Going to the rib festival, or the barbecue,
- or whatever it is.
- Was it easy to do that because you were women?
- If I, personally, went into the barbecue pit festival,
- I'd fear for my life.
- BESS WATTS: Isn't that interesting?
- I think it is easier for women.
- As a result of the private work, I also
- ran for president of CSA local 828, which is Monroe County.
- And it's like 3500 members.
- And I separate my GLBT activism from when
- I go to the local meetings.
- But when we were collecting letters, it was easy for me.
- But there were a lot of people in the Podunk sections
- of New York that would not sign.
- But I do think that it is harder for men.
- But Todd, I don't know.
- You might want to ask men who have actually
- gotten signatures.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Because, and this is my point of view,
- but I think women are generally less--
- not offended, but-- if you're going up to the barbecues
- and asking women, and talking to other straight women
- about marriage equality and that, most of them
- would be like, yeah, OK.
- Big deal.
- Whereas the men, who may feel a little apprehensive
- or a little offensive, wouldn't feel as threatened from women
- coming up to them talking about it, as they would feel
- threatened as a gay man coming up to them
- and talking about it.
- ANNE TISCHER: We also noticed that it's probably true
- that it is easier for lesbians, or gay women.
- But we also noticed that more women would sign.
- Even though it would be a husband and wife team.
- And obviously, they'd be progressive people,
- because we'd be chatting.
- But it was the wife's job to do that.
- And I had on more than one occasion, the wife would say,
- oh he doesn't do any of the political stuff.
- So possibly, it has to do with some of that too.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: (unintelligible) threatened, anything.
- BESS WATTS: But I have to tell you.
- When I brought the letters to the Rochester labor account
- executive board, Jim Bertolone-- who was the chair
- and the president--
- he would speak up and he says, I can't believe
- that we don't have marriage.
- It's such a fundamental right to have access
- to equality in America.
- And he set the tone.
- And not one person did not sign.
- So if you have someone speaking out as an ally,
- who's obviously straight, and married, and macho--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: But also, his job
- is to be politically savvy that way.
- BESS WATTS: It is possibly his job,
- but I believe that he believes it
- with every fiber of his being.
- ANNE TISCHER: And it may come down to personality again, too.
- Because we do know people, James Bregg from HRC
- came and worked with us and collected letters,
- and we would be in the public market, et cetera.
- But comfortable in his own skin about doing that.
- An experienced activist.
- And we weren't comfortable in our skins early on.
- It's just the timing was right for us.
- We had years of toughening up and realizing that people have
- to hear an idea repeatedly before they can even
- begin to really understand it.
- And then also, we had to learn that rejection sometimes
- has to do with someone else's own shame, or their own fear
- of being stigmatized.
- And so, one of the big things that we had problems--
- we had more support from straight people than we
- had from gay people.
- By far.
- Because of the fact that any human being
- will try to avoid being stigmatized, if they possibly
- can.
- We would work with the gay, LGBT community,
- to try to do consciousness raising,
- and get people energized.
- But by far, the people that were there instantly
- supporting equality, more straight people.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: There's one thing we jumped ahead of.
- Quickly here, I want to go back to the wedding in Washington
- Square Park.
- A great day for you guys, they had one protester
- that the media picked up on.
- However, Father Mulcahy did mention the fact
- that the district attorney did threaten to arrest him
- for performing this marriage.
- BESS WATTS: Yes.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I want to get your take on that
- and the significance of that.
- BESS WATTS: Well I know that Reverend Jim was really torn
- about doing a public ceremony, because he
- could be arrested if he were to say the word marriage.
- They actually contacted the DA and, fortunately, the DA
- happened to be a lesbian.
- So again, it was luck.
- And you know, when the student is ready, the teacher appears.
- And so they chose not to prosecute
- if he said the word marriage.
- Because I believe, was it Jason West, in Lake Placid
- I think was one that performed marriage ceremonies.
- And there was no--
- And I think that he was--
- I'm not sure.
- No, no, he wasn't arrested.
- No, he wasn't.
- So scratch that.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: But the point I want to get to is
- that there was that little bit of a problem--
- BESS WATTS: Yes.
- Yes.
- There was that cloud, but I think Reverend Jim consciously
- kept us separate from that.
- Because it was a marriage.
- It wasn't a dog and pony show.
- We were getting married in our church.
- So, I think he wanted to keep that--
- at least I believe--
- he didn't want us to be involved so much in that aspect.
- But we were well aware of the fact that he could be arrested.
- And we would have went to jail with him, if it came to that.
- Did you have something to add?
- ANNE TISCHER: We also had spent two years
- talking to non-supportive county legislators every month.
- So I think that we were prepared mentally.
- In fact, we expected negative things to happen.
- Which didn't.
- It turned out to be a beautiful, lovely ceremony.
- And we count that as our wedding day.
- BESS WATTS: But I do have to say that I was out at work,
- but I wasn't really out.
- But when you're talking about being
- on the front page of the paper, and all the media,
- there was no going back.
- And it was probably the best thing
- that could have happened for me, is to be so out and visible.
- Because everybody knew where I was coming from,
- there was no guessing.
- So it was really a blessing.
- ANNE TISCHER: There were a couple of touching things
- that happened.
- One, I was in the human services field.
- And an elderly woman who, I believe
- she would be like eighty-seven years old, called.
- She actually talked to Bess, thought she was talking to me,
- and talked about how her nineteen-year-old brother had
- killed himself.
- And she believed that it was because he was gay.
- And so, that is the sort of thing
- that this started to generate.
- And we started getting calls from people
- who had immigration problems.
- Instantly we became a lightning rod.
- And we cultivated that.
- Because it was very hard for people--
- it seemed hard for people--
- LGBT people, to be willing to step into that role.
- And we were there.
- We were the leaders that we were looking for.
- BESS WATTS: You know, it's funny,
- on the day of the wedding, or the day
- after, I had this relationship where I work,
- I'm inter-library loan at the library.
- And I always get books for Hector.
- He's a patron.
- And he came to me.
- And I was afraid of what people were going to say.
- And he said, I'm mad at you.
- And I said, why didn't you invite me to your wedding.
- And then he proceeded to tell me about the experiences
- that he went through as a Hispanic
- coming and moving to Rochester in an all white neighborhood,
- and being discriminated against.
- And he just wanted me to know that he supports
- me, and congratulations.
- So many people sent us cards and gave us wedding gifts.
- And it was really just overwhelming.
- And the generosity of people is just astounding.
- And most people are fair minded.
- And the ones that have descent happen to have loud voices,
- but they're losing the battle.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So let's move forward a little bit from that.
- Because your fight for marriage equality didn't just
- stop in Washington Square Park.
- BESS WATTS: No.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: It really propelled us right up into 2012
- where we actually got it from New York State.
- BESS WATTS: Yes.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So talk to me a little bit, again,
- about that dedication.
- That commitment to really being out there.
- And really getting what you had in Washington Square
- Park available for everyone in the state.
- BESS WATTS: I think that Anne and I as a team--
- I mean, she is a pit bull.
- And very task oriented.
- And it is the sense of injustice.
- And it was so funny in our lives,
- I had the labor connection, and she
- has the organizational skills.
- And together we really worked well together,
- and we were surrounded with wonderful mentors.
- I mean the Tom Privateers the Scott Fearings,
- the Sue Cowells, Harry Bronson.
- All these people came in to play to create
- the nucleus that we needed to move the ball forward.
- ANNE TISCHER: One of the things that we
- learned is that activists and leaders are there by default.
- Something needed to be done.
- Neither one of us were comfortable speaking publicly,
- but it needed to be done.
- So we showed up.
- And then so-and-so needed to be talked to, lobbied.
- So we'd show up.
- Were we good at it?
- Not at first.
- We needed to get editorials written.
- All right.
- And there'd be griping going on, but it turns out we can write.
- Who knew that I could letter signs in a straight row.
- And so, as the need came up, and there was no one else to do it,
- we were there.
- And we had the good fortune to have some people around us who
- will--
- as long as we were willing to say,
- this is what we need to do--
- then we had supporters That would help us with that.
- But mostly, it came down to there was nobody else to do it.
- And that's why we say we are accidental activists
- with no noticeable skills.
- BESS WATTS: But also, because of the oppression,
- and because of the discrimination,
- we would have never reached our own self-actualization.
- I would have never been able to be president of a Union,
- or speak publicly, if it hadn't been for that.
- It's that double edged sword that we always talk about.
- But we still have a long way to go.
- We're not over yet.
- But we certainly feel that we've done our part.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: This is what's going
- to be called a setup shot here.
- Brian, I want you to stay on Bess.
- I'm going to talk to Anne.
- It's going to be on you, Here's what I need--
- in all of the time that we've been talking
- I've been singling on each of you,
- but I need some reaction shots.
- To cut in there.
- So you're just going to sit there and listen to Anne.
- As you would normally listen to her if she's talking to me.
- And then we're going to reverse it.
- Anne, my question to you would be,
- tell me about the greatest thing about having
- this woman in your life and being able to work
- with her in this activism.
- ANNE TISCHER: For the first nine years we were together,
- Bess opened the car door for me.
- Every single time.
- I was privileged to be loved in a way that is rare.
- And we never, almost never, argued.
- Even though we have differences of opinion.
- I am not the easiest person to get along with.
- And so, to have someone who is very social,
- and just tends to affairs of the hurt,
- that was such a blessing for me.
- And in terms of making me an effective activist,
- Bess taught me.
- Before you ask them for something,
- ask how their kids are.
- So there were skills that she brought to the table,
- but mostly the fact that we could go home,
- and we were working together.
- And never have I doubted that she had my back.
- And it doesn't get any better than that.
- I don't know how anyone can be an activist who
- doesn't have that.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: We're going to reverse it.
- Now you just need to listen to Bess.
- BESS WATTS: Yeah, listen to me.
- Her listen?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Same kind of question.
- Having this woman in your corner.
- The love and the satisfaction of that.
- BESS WATTS: I remember when I was dating Anne
- and when she would first appear in a room, she would smile.
- And it would just light up my heart.
- She's the most tenacious, caring person I know.
- And she has such a sense of what justice is.
- And what I love most about her is--
- when we got married in Canada, legally--
- my vow to her was, when I am with you,
- I am nothing I was before, but everything I
- hoped to be and more.
- And she has made me a better person.
- And I would have never achieved any of my goals in life,
- if it hadn't been for her pushing me and pushing me.
- There's a reason I call her Attila my Hun.
- I want it on my gravestone.
- I want it pointed right at her.
- Attila my Hun.
- Because anybody that knows Anne, she just has a way about her.
- And I think that we were just meant for each other,
- and we'll be together until the day we die.
- And I love her very much.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Last question--
- BESS WATTS: Was that OK?
- ANNE TISCHER: I thought you were going to talk
- about the babies crying.
- BESS WATTS: Oh yeah.
- Oh, lord.
- That baby in the--
- oh my god.
- If she takes on one more project,
- I'm going to kill her though.
- ANNE TISCHER: Our operating principle for years,
- and we were probably as busy as two human beings possibly
- could be daily, doing this activism, especially
- after the failed vote.
- A lot of people went away.
- Activists went away.
- And we ramped up.
- And needless to say, you're tired.
- You're frustrated.
- Because you can't get anyone to support you.
- And nobody would come out, and nobody would share the work.
- And so our motto became, it doesn't matter if you're tired,
- or you're hungry, or you don't want to do this,
- if you're a mama and the baby's crying, you get up
- and take care of the baby.
- So that was our mantra.
- BESS WATTS: I hated that baby sometimes.
- ANNE TISCHER: The babies crying, so you're
- up at four o' clock in the morning
- doing what you need to do.
- BESS WATTS: It's your baby!
- ANNE TISCHER: So I won't say it's been the easiest path,
- but as Bess said, it's a path that
- took us to self-actualization.
- We didn't know what we were capable of.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Years from now, as history reflects
- upon the two of you, what do you want to be most remembered for?
- What are you most proud of?
- ANNE TISCHER: I'd say persistence.
- Because we wouldn't take no for an answer, and it was hard.
- I mean, our feelings got hurt, and like anybody else,
- insecurities.
- After the failed 2009 vote, people went away.
- And Todd Plank had been let go, as a scapegoat, by the pride
- agenda.
- Everybody was in disarray.
- At that time we had to make the decision whether we would go it
- alone, whether we were going to toss in the towel and just say,
- well nobody else wants to do this.
- There were probably six months when
- I would be calling equality Rochester meetings,
- and no one would show up.
- I'd write minutes and put them out there.
- And for me, the hardest thing was
- to do this because you know it's the right thing that
- has to be done.
- We were prepared in Rochester when the governor finally
- had his grasstops gathering.
- Because they had done the analysis and they realized,
- we need grassroots people mobilized in order
- to be successful.
- Because we persisted, even if it was just by ourselves.
- We had the structure all ready to go,
- and we continued our outreach.
- That, to me, persistence would be what I am proudest of.
- BESS WATTS: For me, the proudest probably
- was developing and cultivating relationships with labor
- when they came out for a press conference.
- And the historically conservative police union,
- and the firefighters union, stood in support.
- That meant so much to me.
- As well as the day the wedding license
- were issued in Rochester.
- I was just so proud, and so happy.
- The people in line--
- because we had a trellis, and we had decorations.
- With Anne it just isn't good enough, it has to be excellent.
- And the cake.
- We had a wedding cake.
- There was just so much to that day.
- And we didn't know any of the couples that were
- in line for a wedding license.
- ANNE TISCHER: The early couples.
- The ones that came three hours early to wait in line.
- BESS WATTS: Right.
- And it was so funny.
- Because some of them are like, oh, we have marriage now.
- Without realizing everything that went behind the scenes
- to make that happen.
- But to see the couples and how proud I
- was to have been part of that historical event.
- And it really is the proverbial snowball.
- It's happening now.
- When President Obama came out in support for marriage equality,
- that was momentous.
- There's always one word or two.
- And today, inauguration day, he mentions Selma, Seneca Falls,
- and stonewall.
- Is that not the greatest?
- I'm just so proud to be part of gay, lesbian, bisexual,
- transgender history.
- ANNE TISCHER: And we got Senator Elise's vote.
- That was historic, to have the first GOP supporter.
- Public supporter for marriage.
- We took the pieces that we were good at, and melded them
- with the governor's office and the big organizations.
- We created a system that worked, that
- has been exported now to other states.
- Some of the people that worked in the coalition
- that we had under Equality Rochester here from HRC,
- and Pride Agenda, and--
- BESS WATTS: Freedom to Marry, Empire State Pride-- yeah.
- ANNE TISCHER: They now are in, and would check in.
- They were in Maryland, they were in Wisconsin,
- BESS WATTS: Minnesota.
- ANNE TISCHER: Minnesota.
- BESS WATTS: Maine.
- ANNE TISCHER: Maine.
- Yes.
- And so, what we figured out and successfully
- did here in Rochester.
- Because we would lead the state in the counts.
- And in terms of calls, letters, and so--
- BESS WATTS: It was at one of the meetings
- that we had for the the coalition.
- Where the idea for Lady Gaga to mention Senator Grisanti
- in Buffalo came to be.
- And it was HRC that contacted Lady Gaga to get her to--
- from the stage-- to call Senator Grisanti to support
- marriage equality.
- It was a meeting in Rochester that made that happen.
- And a lot of people don't know that.
- ANNE TISCHER: And then those people,
- Jen Schwab is now in Maine.
- And David Turley, and--
- BESS WATTS: It's collected a lot of people
- involved to make it happen.
- ANNE TISCHER: And we mentor people now.
- For instance, we teach a class and--
- BESS WATTS: SUNY, Brockport.
- ANNE TISCHER: --couple of classes we will teach on--
- BESS WATTS: Policy in protest.
- ANNE TISCHER: Policy in protest, disability, lobbying,
- discrimination.
- And so we are now mentoring the next generation.
- BESS WATTS: We also do workshops on signs and visibility.
- And that's just it.
- We do too much.
- And we are starting to like, OK, we've done our part.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, how do you pass that torch?
- ANNE TISCHER: We let go of it.
- Because one of the things that happens,
- if you are identified as the leaders,
- unless you let go of it and let it drop to the ground,
- no one else is going to take it up.
- At least for the Equality Rochester piece,
- I totally stepped back.
- And it took a little while, but now there
- are some successful activists out
- there thinking for themselves.
- Initially, for the first six months, what do you think Anne?
- Should we do this?
- BESS WATTS: But Pride at Work is going to continue.
- I mean, there's so much to be done.
- There's transgender health care.
- There's still DOMA.
- In GLBT, education within labor.
- There's so much that needs to be done, and Pride at Work
- will continue.
- And hopefully I'll continue to be involved in it as president,
- or whatever.
- But it is something that needs to happen, and will.
- ANNE TISCHER: The other piece that needs to happen
- is the international fight for LGBT.
- The American evangelicals have gone around the world
- and gotten legislation introduced
- that has done serious harm.
- It happens that our church, Open Arms Metropolitan Community
- Church, has been blessed with Reverend Jim Mulcahy, who
- now works with LGBT activists in Ukraine.
- We have Maurice Tomlinson who won the David Kato
- award for his work around the world,
- but in particular in Uganda.
- BESS WATTS: And Jamaica.
- ANNE TISCHER: And Jamaica.
- And the visiting pastor, who we want to stay,
- is in fact, a former police officer who
- goes around the world and teaches police forces how
- to handle hate crimes.
- And so they educate police forces,
- they educate the judges, because Maurice,
- his husband is an attorney.
- International rights attorney.
- So we are very tuned in to what's happening,
- the worsening situation that is happening around the world.
- So that's kind of our next focus.
- BESS WATTS: Yeah, whatever.
- A vacation maybe.
- ANNE TISCHER: You're not done yet.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Well ladies, we'll leave it at that.
- BESS WATTS: Thank you.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: And you did not have to look at your notebooks.
- ANNE TISCHER: You never know though.
- If you asked me to pinpoint a date.
- BESS WATTS: Yeah, it was probably way too much.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Get these microphones off.