Video Interview, Bess Watts and Anne Tischer, January 21, 2013

  • KEVIN INDOVINO: [INAUDIBLE]
  • This is a conversation between us.
  • In your mind, there's no cameras here,
  • no lights, all that stuff.
  • The most important thing to remember,
  • is that the audience is not going
  • to hear my question to you.
  • BESS WATTS: OK.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So when you make a response,
  • or answer a question, you kind of have to set it up first.
  • Thinking OK, is the audience going
  • to know what I'm talking about here?
  • Set it up first for the audience and then answer the question.
  • ANNE TISCHER: Quasi-repeat your question.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.
  • Exactly.
  • If you get lost for words--
  • ANNE TISCHER: We tell people not to wear dark clothes
  • when they come to our house.
  • BESS WATTS: Yeah, between the cat and the glitter.
  • All right.
  • Let's just show them this pony.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
  • So, first and foremost, let's start with you, Bess.
  • I need the correct spelling of your first and last name,
  • how you would want it appearing on screen.
  • BESS WATTS: Bess Watts.
  • B-E-S-S W-A-T-T-S.
  • ANNE TISCHER: Anne Tischer, A-N-N-E T-I-S-C-H-E-R.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Let's just start out with some general questions
  • here, before we get into all of the work and activism stuff.
  • A lot of it's going to be kind of fishing for me,
  • because I don't know a lot about you.
  • Let's talk about how you guys met.
  • And then we'll move from that to, eventually,
  • getting married in Washington Square Park.
  • BESS WATTS: How did we meet?
  • We knew each other for several years.
  • About seven, I think.
  • And then we met at a Christmas party that friends of ours
  • were putting on in Hornell.
  • ANNE TISCHER: I had a cup marked single and employed,
  • and Bess picked me up.
  • BESS WATTS: And that appealed to me at the time.
  • ANNE TISCHER: I didn't know, previously,
  • that she was single.
  • And she was down in the southern tier.
  • And so we argued politics while everyone else was
  • enjoying the Christmas party.
  • And afterwards, I wrote her a thank you letter, which
  • she totally misinterpreted.
  • And it took a while before she realized
  • that I was hitting on her.
  • BESS WATTS: The second thank you letter
  • arrived sprayed with perfume.
  • And I got the hint then.
  • And then we courted for about six months through letters,
  • and we still both have the letters.
  • And we really got to know each other through correspondence.
  • And then we moved in together.
  • And we've been together eighteen years now.
  • ANNE TISCHER: Nineteen.
  • BESS WATTS: Nineteen.
  • We always debate on-- we're always off a year.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So, roughly, you guys met around '93, '94?
  • BESS WATTS: Late '94, and we got married in 2004,
  • in Washington Square Park.
  • ANNE TISCHER: In an act of civil disobedience.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Right.
  • So before we get to that, I just kind of want
  • a general sense of the 1980s, early '90s,
  • before you guys met.
  • What was it like for single lesbian women
  • here in Rochester.
  • What was the scene like?
  • BESS WATTS: I'm not from Rochester.
  • I am from Utah, and I was in the army, and lived in San Diego.
  • So I was in the army before, don't ask, don't tell.
  • But still you couldn't be gay and be in the army.
  • And that was in the '80s, during the disco era, and it was hard.
  • One of the reasons I got out of the military
  • is because you have to live with integrity.
  • And not being able to be out is why
  • I decided to be honorably discharged and got
  • a job in San Diego for libraries.
  • But I had a girl in every port, and I enjoyed being a lesbian.
  • But it was tough not being out at work, and out to my family,
  • really.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: What brought you to Rochester?
  • BESS WATTS: I actually met someone
  • in the military who lived in Hornell.
  • And I moved to be with her.
  • And then that relationship really didn't work out.
  • But I worked at Alfred University for seven years.
  • And Anne and I had mutual friends,
  • and we ended up getting together.
  • And to this day, she is my true love.
  • It was meant to be.
  • I knew instantly.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: What about you Anne,
  • before you met Bess, what was going on, what was life like?
  • ANNE TISCHER: When I was younger,
  • there were no lesbians that I knew at Rochester.
  • I didn't even know that I was lesbian.
  • I accidentally fell in love with a woman
  • who I had been spending a lot of time.
  • Previously, if you had asked me, I assumed that--
  • I mean, I already owned three bridesmaids dresses.
  • I was raised to be the ultimate heterosexual,
  • but I fell in love head over heels.
  • Did not know what was happening, fell in love.
  • And that was my introduction to the gay community.
  • And, by nature, I am an assertive sort of person.
  • So I did not necessarily suffer from the coming out process
  • in ways that other people have.
  • And unfortunately, I didn't understand
  • the process, and how difficult it is for some people.
  • So I did a hit and run with my family.
  • I said, oh, by the way, I'm gay.
  • I'll see you.
  • And so, we had five years of separation.
  • But in that time, I actually developed great friendships,
  • and went out to bars for the first time.
  • And developed a very, very close knit group of friends,
  • some of whom are still friends.
  • And so, because I was-- by nature--
  • an extrovert, when I came out, I came out at work,
  • I came out all over.
  • I was a lipstick lesbian in high heels, and that was that.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: But were there any difficult--
  • You described that because of your nature,
  • it wasn't so difficult for you, but during that time period,
  • where were lesbian women finding information?
  • Where were they meeting other lesbians?
  • ANNE TISCHER: The Gay Alliance, actually.
  • There were coming out groups being led.
  • And I, in fact, did come to a couple of coming out things.
  • There were some women's tea dances that I attended.
  • Nancy and Lee Doohan at the time,
  • were very involved in the social aspects.
  • And then there were the bars.
  • And I went to Alan Street Bar in my high heels
  • and cute little skirt, and had to dodge
  • my very first fistfight.
  • It was quite exciting, you know.
  • There were supports out there, if you were looking for them.
  • I very quickly developed a tribe of friends that I relied on.
  • And so, we camped together, we vacationed, everything.
  • And I think that that was very common.
  • For people to develop a safe circle, and pretty much
  • stay within that group.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: When you eventually
  • made it up here to Rochester, what were you finding in
  • regards to how supportive this community
  • was for lesbian women?
  • BESS WATTS: I found it was hard.
  • Well, I was in love with Anne, and we
  • got involved with our church.
  • And it was through our church that we developed a community.
  • And it took a long time for me to learn
  • about the GLBT community in Rochester.
  • But then, I wasn't really seeking.
  • And I'm not a bar person, per se.
  • And I know that when I was in the army,
  • that's how people met.
  • And I actually was beaten up once
  • when I was trying to go into a bar.
  • And it was an anti-gay hate crime,
  • but I couldn't report it at the time.
  • But for Rochester here, once I discovered the community,
  • I ended up just loving the community.
  • I think Rochester is very fortunate to have
  • such a vibrant GLBT community.
  • And it's really thanks to the Gay Alliance,
  • because anything you want to know, what bars to go to,
  • what restaurant, who's inclusive.
  • And there was coming out workshops at the Gay Alliance.
  • And this is how, actually, the speakers bureau training
  • went in.
  • And I was through the church when
  • we started working with the Empire State Pride Agenda.
  • It was through the Gay Alliance that we
  • got to meet people through the training that they did.
  • So it was wonderful.
  • ANNE TISCHER: The Gay Alliance has
  • done a surprising amount of support
  • for activism in general.
  • In terms of mentoring and providing space,
  • just the sheer encouragement.
  • There were times in our travels when we would hit a brick wall.
  • And Scott Fearing, or Sue Cowell,
  • there would be someone here that would show you
  • a different way of doing it.
  • Or a different way of thinking.
  • It's been it's been, largely, I would
  • have to say, the Gay Alliance has
  • fostered an incredible amount of change, and safety.
  • BESS WATTS: Let's not forget the empty closet.
  • If you want information, just pick up the Empty Closet,
  • it's a wonderful resource.
  • OK.
  • Two things I'm going to follow up with you.
  • Because you said something that--
  • and forgive me because this might
  • be a sensitive subject for you, but you
  • talked about getting beat up once when coming out of a bar.
  • BESS WATTS: No--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: A lot of people are talking about some
  • of the things that we had to deal
  • with back in those early days.
  • BESS WATTS: It's so funny, because I remember
  • the evening I was stationed in Germany,
  • in Heidelberg, Germany.
  • And you had to take the train to go to Mannheim to this lesbian
  • bar.
  • There were five of us, and we all
  • played on the same sports team.
  • And I had a lot of friends, and cool lesbians.
  • And we always went, every Friday or Saturday night, to this bar.
  • And in Germany there's--
  • I forget the name of it, but a walking space.
  • No cars travel back and forth.
  • And you had to go down into this basement like structure
  • to ring the doorbell and be allowed into this club.
  • There were four of us going to this club.
  • And some gentleman had went to the bar,
  • and they were denied access, and they were upset.
  • And then they found out that it was a lesbian bar.
  • And the timing, we were coming, and somebody I was with
  • was holding hands with another woman.
  • And they just got violent all of the sudden.
  • And I got my front teeth knocked out.
  • I was hit--
  • I remember the fist coming.
  • My friend that was with me got cut on the cheek.
  • We're laying on the sidewalk, on the pavement.
  • I'm bleeding, she's screaming, and they ran off.
  • There were four men, and all these lesbians come out
  • of the bar, and what happened?
  • And all of a sudden you hear the polizei, the local police,
  • coming.
  • And we realized that we could not be there,
  • because if they knew that we were at a lesbian bar, then
  • we would be discharged.
  • And subjected to all these questions.
  • And so we're bleeding all over, we get in the cab,
  • we go to the local hospital the military one in Heidelberg.
  • My friend had to get stitches.
  • We made up this ridiculous story about how
  • I was playing softball, I was swinging a bat,
  • I knocked my teeth out.
  • It was a lie, and everybody knew it,
  • but the people got away with assault.
  • And we couldn't do anything about it.
  • And we had to go to work on Monday like nothing happened.
  • So it was just one of those things.
  • And that was really one of the deciding factors.
  • How can you live authentically if you always
  • have to deny a core identity.
  • And it really haunted me, and I couldn't talk about it
  • for years.
  • But it is part of life's experiences.
  • And I was, while I was in the army, called in to see ID.
  • Because I was on a list and I always joked,
  • if I'm not number one on the list,
  • I don't want to be on it at all.
  • But I had to deny, no I'm not, I don't have a girlfriend,
  • no, are you kidding, I'm not one of those.
  • And it's just degrading.
  • And thank God, how many years later, twenty-five years,
  • that don't ask, don't tell, has finally been repealed.
  • And people can live openly without hiding.
  • You don't have to burn your letters,
  • you don't have to destroy parts of your identity,
  • and be true to yourself.
  • ANNE TISCHER: We actually know several really sad stories
  • of people who ended up getting kicked out
  • of the military, just short of their pensions, et cetera.
  • And when don't ask, don't tell, failed to pass at one point,
  • because of Bess' stories, and some
  • of these other circumstances, I went down with Get Equal,
  • and got arrested on the White House fence.
  • I can't think of any topic more offensive
  • than abusing the military service personnel
  • for their sexual orientation, when
  • they're willing to die for this country.
  • BESS WATTS: Yes.
  • I can't believe she spent the night in jail.
  • At this time I was with this Health and Safety Conference
  • in Lake Placid.
  • And it was all orchestrated.
  • The bail was set up, and she was with people,
  • they knew what they were doing.
  • It wasn't a fly by the night protest.
  • But to get a phone call that says,
  • your wife's been arrested, and we
  • don't know if she'll get out tonight,
  • she'll probably spend the night in jail.
  • Here I am, in my bed, thinking of her and the cold cement
  • floor.
  • And then, the next day, it was the time of her life,
  • to be perfectly frank.
  • There's a reason I call her, Attila my Hun.
  • ANNE TISCHER: And what was interesting,
  • is I met Dan Choi when I was down there.
  • And described why I had driven down,
  • and described Bess' experiences, and some of these other folks.
  • And he cried, because people who really were fighting
  • the fight for don't ask, don't tell, were so isolated
  • and just felt so overwhelmed, because they
  • couldn't get a lot of support.
  • It's an outrage.
  • It still is.
  • The fact that the families, right now,
  • are still treated as second class citizens.
  • BESS WATTS: It will change.
  • I'm convinced.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So let's get into some political activism
  • and some workplace activism.
  • Anne, let me just stay with you for a moment.
  • What drives you?
  • Because it's not the average Jane, or Joe,
  • who can get up there, and get arrested on the White House
  • fence.
  • Where does that passion and then that drive come from?
  • ANNE TISCHER: I think I was raised
  • by parents who encouraged you to act with integrity.
  • And each of them had family stories
  • where they did heroic, or courageous things.
  • Either on the job, or something.
  • So when you grow up hearing a little story like that,
  • it sets expectations.
  • And I'm the oldest of four.
  • And just had always been taught, you take responsibility.
  • I had a whole series of experiences in my life.
  • But one of the things that made it possible
  • for me to comfortably advocate, and be vocal about being LGBT,
  • I was a fat kid.
  • So I had to fight the battle of self-esteem
  • when I was overweight and people were picking on me then.
  • And because I mastered that, by the time I got to the stages
  • where I'm facing my own in unequal treatment,
  • I had already gone through stages
  • of fighting for women's rights, fighting anti-war Vietnam
  • protests, the American-Indian thing.
  • Because I had been bullied, or attempted bullied, as a kid.
  • And so, it just translated.
  • And bit by bit you become stronger.
  • And for me, becoming an abused minority was overnight.
  • Because who knew I was gay.
  • It was eye opening to me, the prejudice.
  • And if I was willing to fight for other groups,
  • I was going to fight for myself.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Bess, how about you?
  • BESS WATTS: Unlike Anne, I knew when I was three days old
  • that I was a lesbian.
  • And what prompted me-- you know what,
  • I have to say, to become a fierce advocate,
  • and to form a Pride at Work chapter, and to speak out,
  • I have to hand it to Anne.
  • And also turning fifty.
  • ANNE TISCHER: That's a big thing.
  • BESS WATTS: I tell my friends that when
  • you reach the point when people are afraid of what they think
  • of you, when you reach the point of,
  • they have to worry about what I think of them.
  • And when you reach that point, then you can speak out.
  • I had a deathly fear of speaking in public.
  • I couldn't even do an offering call at church without shaking.
  • And when we formed the chapter of Pride at Work in 2007,
  • which is a LGBT advocacy group under AFL-CIO,
  • for gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender labor.
  • I wasn't speaking for me, I was speaking for our members.
  • And I felt that was easier.
  • I remember a meeting where we had Senator Bruno, at the time.
  • They were trying to pass this law for Family Access
  • Bill, where gay families could be represented,
  • and it wouldn't be in the public realm,
  • it would be in the confidentiality in the family
  • courts.
  • And I was so scared.
  • I raised my hand and I said, why haven't you passed this bill?
  • They've been trying to pass it for twenty years.
  • Clearly it's a women's issue, and I
  • didn't feel I knew what I was talking about.
  • But I did it.
  • And I remember Senator Bruno going,
  • let's just move the bill.
  • And finally, it wasn't me that moved the bill,
  • but I think that I might have helped with the tipping point.
  • And I realized then that having an organization,
  • and having members behind you, gives you courage
  • where you might not have had it otherwise.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: A follow up with private work then.
  • Talk to me a little bit about the initiation
  • of a private work chapter here, locally.
  • And about using the labor force to promote change.
  • BESS WATTS: In 2002 I think it was, Anne's mother passed away.
  • And I had to take vacation time, to take bereavement leave,
  • to be with Anne.
  • And my coworkers would have had bereavement leave.
  • Anne had major surgery in, I think, 2004 or five.
  • ANNE TISCHER: Three.
  • BESS WATTS: Three.
  • And I had depleted my leave bank.
  • But my coworkers could have had sick leave,
  • because they're married.
  • And I felt that that was an injustice.
  • And I went to my union president at the time at MCC,
  • at Monroe Community College, Pat Wolff.
  • And I said, we need to change this.
  • We need domestic partner benefits for MCC.
  • And she said, Bess, you do the research,
  • and we'll see what we can do.
  • I did the research.
  • There was a lot of research material to work with.
  • Kodak, Bausch & Lomb, the city of Rochester.
  • All of them have domestic partner benefits.
  • Monroe County does not, but that's
  • another story, and another mission, if you will.
  • Getting talking to Pat, and having her advocate,
  • and getting domestic partner benefits,
  • really turned me into an accidental advocate.
  • Because we were, at the time, with Monroe County employees.
  • But when we voted the contract for Monroe Community College,
  • it was just for MCC, but I felt I was leaving Monroe County
  • employees behind.
  • And I did a lot of research.
  • And we have out in equal.
  • Kodak has Galaxy or Xerox, I get confused.
  • A very strong pro-GLBT community, but it
  • was really lacking for people in public sector.
  • Or IBEW.
  • Or the police union.
  • So, I found that Pride at Work was the only organization that
  • was available.
  • And we formed a chapter.
  • And as a result of that chapter, it took two years
  • to cultivate relationships.
  • I do a monthly report.
  • We have not a lot of members, but very active members.
  • And together we've really created change
  • within the labor community.
  • And I got to tell you, we are doing the labor community
  • a huge favor.
  • They've been waiting for Pride at Work.
  • I say that because the people I've encountered
  • say, thank god you're here.
  • Because I have this employee, I don't know the language.
  • Can you help me with the language for the contract?
  • I have somebody that works with me in the warehouse,
  • can I give her your card?
  • Absolutely.
  • When we first formed Pride at Work,
  • we were getting calls once or twice a week.
  • Hey, we got marriage now, why do I have to pay insurance
  • on the health care?
  • Well yes you do, it's a federal.
  • So we've been such a vehicle for the community,
  • and that really came into play when
  • the marriage equality bill--
  • we had a press conference, and all the labor leaders,
  • with the exception of building and trades,
  • spoke at the press conference for marriage equality.
  • And that was because of the work that we
  • did through Pride at Work.
  • And I discovered that you have to have an organization
  • to have power behind you.
  • And now I'm on the National Board of Pride at Work,
  • and I was just elected as the vice president of organizing
  • for the national level.
  • There are--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: That's OK.
  • Why don't you get a drink of water?
  • BESS WATTS: Yes, I will.
  • Thank you.
  • ANNE TISCHER: She left out a two year thing
  • that I think is of very great importance.
  • The reason she started Pride at Work
  • is, as Monroe Community College got domestic partner benefits,
  • but the county employees overall did not.
  • And so we started in 2005 to speak monthly
  • at the county legislature, advocating for domestic partner
  • benefits for the entire county.
  • And we were there two or three times, and totally naive.
  • We really thought it was an oversight
  • that they hadn't extended it.
  • And about the third time we were there,
  • Harry Bronson's son gives us a call and says,
  • you girls need a little mentoring about lobbying.
  • And so, what happened is we continued for years,
  • every month, lobbying.
  • And the more often we got no for an answer,
  • the more we had to dig into deeper tactics,
  • find more mentors, find other doors to go through.
  • And that is how it evolved that Harry Bronson then hooked us up
  • with Tom Privateer.
  • And so the networking that went on.
  • And that is how Bess went looking for pride at work,
  • knowing that you have to have the power in order
  • to create the change.
  • But that two year period was funny,
  • because we were wet behind the ears, and--
  • BESS WATTS: Absolutely.
  • ANNE TISCHER: --Naive.
  • BESS WATTS: I wish we knew now, what we knew then.
  • Have you worked with the county as well?
  • ANNE TISCHER: I did.
  • I worked in chronic care Medicaid for the county.
  • And I worked with gay men who were, some of them,
  • thirty year veterans.
  • And unable to come out, simple as that.
  • I was never in the closet.
  • And previous to the county, I worked at Xerox,
  • where LGBT people, certainly gay and lesbian people,
  • were treated very well.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So, talk to me about the work environment.
  • So talk to me a little bit about--
  • you worked in one place that was very accepting.
  • And then you're working for Hoping government institution
  • that, to this day, is not that accepting, they won't even
  • talk about it.
  • Talk to me about that kind of work environment
  • and the challenges and the frustrations
  • that one can experience working in that kind of environment.
  • ANNE TISCHER: If we had not had a little activist
  • thing going on, it might have been more oppressive.
  • But, by then, every time somebody said no,
  • or every time somebody did something that was unjust,
  • it actually created more resolve for us.
  • And so I started by getting involved with the union.
  • And I think that, early on, I--
  • and I think also Bess--
  • realized that the greatest thing we could do for LGBT equality
  • was to be the most out, vocal, visible couple possible.
  • And so that was my function at the county.
  • That I was out and open.
  • But I was likeable too.
  • And so that makes it--
  • if you are appreciated, and I would stick up for other people
  • also--
  • so, if you are accepted as a human being,
  • then it's much easier to live in that type of an environment.
  • It's easier for women, also.
  • And the men that I knew at the county,
  • I witnessed very oppressive, obnoxious behaviors there.
  • After I left the county, I went to one
  • of Rochester's big hospitals, where
  • there is zero mandatory tolerance training.
  • And I witnessed awful things happening.
  • And that's where you would see same sex
  • partners coming in and being quizzed about their right
  • to visit.
  • And I'm standing there--
  • I worked for the social work department--
  • and I'm standing there knowing that legally there was nothing
  • that these people could do.
  • And eventually you could talk to the staff, et cetera.
  • But to this day, none of the hospitals in Rochester
  • have mandatory tolerance or diversity training.
  • BESS WATTS: But back to the Monroe County.
  • When we first formed the Pride at Work,
  • we expected, naively, that all these people
  • would come out of the woodwork and join Pride at Work.
  • Not realizing-- and we almost gave up
  • forming the chapter Pride at Work.
  • If it hadn't been for Scott Fearing, encountering him
  • and saying that you have to reach people where they are.
  • And we went to this training that he did for Nixon Peabody--
  • ANNE TISCHER: Back up-- we put on a forum.
  • A speaker's panel.
  • BESS WATTS: That's what I was getting at, yeah.
  • A speakers panel where the county employees--
  • some came, but it was almost--
  • ANNE TISCHER: Three people.
  • BESS WATTS: --three people.
  • And all it was was complaining, and not
  • really wanting to do anything.
  • And a real anger that they experienced.
  • It was really odd, and we almost gave up.
  • And as a result of that, we encountered Scott Fearing,
  • you're right.
  • ANNE TISCHER: And Scott had taken us.
  • We told him.
  • We had five panelists, and three attendees.
  • And I worked with three gay people,
  • so I knew there were a lot of LGBT people
  • in the county, oppressed.
  • And we couldn't reach them.
  • Newsletters, whatever.
  • There was no way to get people to respond.
  • Scott had a training where he talked about,
  • and this was a corporate training that he said, come.
  • And he introduced us to the Cass model of sexual identity
  • development, and some other tools,
  • where he said that you have to meet people
  • where they are in their comfort level of coming out.
  • And in a big organization in particular,
  • you can't necessarily raise consciousness
  • from the bottom up.
  • You have to create an environment that
  • is safe from the top down.
  • At which point, that's when Bess started drinking beer with--
  • BESS WATTS: With the labor guys.
  • ANNE TISCHER: --union leaders.
  • Because she realized A, she had to be
  • part of the power structure.
  • So she became a Labor Council delegate on the executive board
  • there.
  • Volunteered for every committee.
  • So she had to be part of the structure.
  • And then had to convert hearts and minds of the leaders,
  • so that perception-wise, it's a safe environment.
  • And once that happened, then we started seeing a little bit
  • more response.
  • BESS WATTS: But I have to tell you
  • that that county meeting that we did have,
  • there was one person that was in that meeting that's
  • still with us today.
  • And that's Judy Johnson.
  • And she's still a member, and she's a county employee,
  • and I couldn't be more proud of her living authentically.
  • She's an African-American, her gender expression is male,
  • and she's proud to be a lesbian.
  • And I'm proud that she's a member of Pride at Work,
  • because she was there at the very beginning.
  • And that that was worth it.
  • Just to have that one person that
  • sticks with you through the development of Pride at Work.
  • And she always challenges me, and she's always a good voice.
  • ANNE TISCHER: One of the things that, in order to build--
  • because Bess never asked for support, for two years.
  • She spent two years developing relationship with the unions.
  • If there was a strike, we'd be making signs,
  • we'd be showing up there and walking the picket line.
  • And sometimes bringing people who weren't even
  • involved in the union at all.
  • But collecting money.
  • When the Mott strikers out in Williamson, we would go out,
  • we'd cook for them, take money out, walk the line.
  • They came and marched with us in the gay pride parade.
  • BESS WATTS: And distributed over 5,000 leaflets.
  • And it was through those relationships,
  • and you're talking Timbuktu.
  • And you're talking someone probably
  • hasn't heard gay all week.
  • And we introduce each other, hi, I'm a lesbian.
  • My name is Bess.
  • Jokingly, but Anne and I always introduce each other as wife.
  • This is my wife, Anne.
  • And initially people are taken back.
  • And the second, hey how is your wife, Anne doing?
  • Or how's your wife, Bess doing?
  • So language matters, and words matter.
  • And we learned that early on.
  • Especially to say gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender,
  • because people say GLBT so they don't have to say the words.
  • And so every labor meeting that we have every month,
  • I make sure that I say, I'm Bess.
  • I'm the gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender organization
  • Pride at Work AFL-CIO.
  • And it's great.
  • ANNE TISCHER: And the use of humor, OK?
  • We have learned so much over ten years worth of work.
  • The use of humor will open doors like nothing else.
  • She refers to me as Attila my Hun.
  • And so, if you go in and demand your rights,
  • you've already lost the battle.
  • It all comes down to changing hearts and minds,
  • and making people realize, hey this is your neighbor.
  • We like these people.
  • It's just incidental that they happen to be LGBT.
  • BESS WATTS: Right.
  • And we learned, and we've had mentors along the way.
  • And it's like when the student is ready,
  • the teacher will appear.
  • We have found that in our activism.
  • Linda Donahue is someone I have as a mentor in the labor
  • community.
  • But I remember attending something that she had.
  • And she said, you don't expect people
  • to show up for your event, if you don't support theirs.
  • And that's really been Pride at Work's motto.
  • We've been there at every strike, at every rally,
  • if somebody needs something, we'll be there.
  • And now, we feel that if we need help, we can ask them.
  • So it's all about cultivating and building relationships.
  • ANNE TISCHER: We actually use the same principles
  • when we work specifically on marriage equality.
  • We set up Equality Rochester.
  • And use the same philosophies to build relationship
  • while we made signs for every progressive organization.
  • We lent our generator to the Occupy Rochester people.
  • And to this day, we are members of all
  • these different progressive groups.
  • Well, the payback on that.
  • When we were doing the big push for marriage equality,
  • metro justice let us use their office space, their phone
  • banks, their copies.
  • Big support from these organizations.
  • But again, we have done years of relationship building,
  • before we did the ask.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So let's talk about marriage equality.
  • Because before you even got involved with marriage equality
  • activism.
  • You already kind of were out there
  • as a proponent for marriage equality.
  • Let's talk about that this isn't to--
  • can't legally say marriage.
  • Civil union.
  • What did you call it?
  • I knew you guys, in the press, called it a marriage.
  • But legally it was what?
  • A civil union?
  • BESS WATTS: When was this?
  • ANNE TISCHER: 2004.
  • BESS WATTS: 2004.
  • It was considered marriage through our church.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So let's start at the beginning though.
  • Let's talk about making that decision.
  • BESS WATTS: OK.
  • OK.
  • You know what?
  • We're going to get married, we're
  • going to get married through our church.
  • We're going to do it in Washington Square Park.
  • The whole thinking behind that.
  • And how important that was to maybe--
  • I would think generate the bigger discussion.
  • ANNE TISCHER: Actually there was a big movement at the time.
  • Interfaith advocates had a lot of clergy involved
  • in marriage supportive actions.
  • And our denomination, which is Metropolitan Community Church,
  • which was founded by Troy Perry, who was an early LGBT activist.
  • BESS WATTS: And one of the plaintiffs for prop eight.
  • ANNE TISCHER: And our church wanted
  • to do a nationwide action.
  • You're probably better at explaining this.
  • BESS WATTS: A nationwide action to show
  • that there's support for clergy support for marriage equality.
  • And our pastor was looking for couples
  • who are already committed, that are devoted to each other
  • and are willing to marry.
  • So we were approached and asked if we
  • would want to do a marriage, publicly,
  • at Washington Square Park.
  • And we said, sure, why not, not realizing everything
  • that it entailed.
  • So we said we would, and the date
  • was set for April 29th, 2004.
  • And I took the day off from work,
  • and it was really quite interesting,
  • because I didn't ask a lot of people
  • that I worked with if they wanted to come to the wedding.
  • I didn't want people to feel that they had to believe in it
  • or not.
  • So it was odd.
  • Didn't you think that?
  • So, we did ask our friend, Deb Moore,
  • to do a reading, who I work with.
  • And the Reverend, Jim Mulcahy, asked the clergy--
  • there were how many clergy?
  • ANNE TISCHER: There were a dozen clergy
  • from different denominations.
  • BESS WATTS: Right.
  • And we were interviewed for the DNC,
  • probably a month prior, in March, with I forget--
  • ANNE TISCHER: Jim Memut
  • BESS WATTS: Jim Memut interviewed us.
  • And it wasn't really related to the marriage.
  • It was just about marriage equality.
  • So the day the wedding took place, well, let's
  • back up a little bit.
  • Because we did go to City Hall to get a marriage license.
  • We were the first same sex couple
  • to ask for, and be refused a marriage license.
  • And we were so nervous going in there.
  • I'm not sure whether we thought we were going to get arrested,
  • or thrown out, or something.
  • We went up to the counter and the girls were just distraught.
  • Wait, wait, wait.
  • And they called Carolee Concklin down,
  • who was the clerk at the time.
  • And she came down and said, I am so glad to see you.
  • She took us upstairs into a private room, handed us
  • a folder of materials that she had been collecting following
  • the marriage fight, and essentially said,
  • find a way to sue us, because we can't give you
  • a marriage license.
  • BESS WATTS: And we invited her to the wedding.
  • ANNE TISCHER: She has been an incredible ally, unbelievable.
  • But that was one of the unexpected surprise
  • supports that keeps you going.
  • And we constantly have run into that.
  • Where you assume there's no help out there
  • and there'll be people that keep you going.
  • BESS WATTS: Right.
  • And the night before the wedding.
  • The police liaison came to our house
  • to talk to us to make sure, because he was going
  • to be there with other police, to make sure
  • that there was not going to be any revolt, disruption.
  • Thank you.
  • She finds the words for me.
  • And on the day of the wedding, we
  • get the Democrat and Chronicle, and our picture
  • is above the fold.
  • And I forget the headlines, a couple to marry today,
  • or something of that effect.
  • And it was a media event.
  • We were getting calls from channel 10, channel 8, channel
  • 9, I mean all four of the news stations.
  • And it was a beautiful, windy day.
  • April 29th.
  • Anne loves wind, that's why I remember.
  • And yellow flowers.
  • Go ahead, you talk about the wedding itself.
  • ANNE TISCHER: We were surprised.
  • We thought we were going to do a very small--
  • our rallies, and protests, and everything else,
  • had been largely in the fifteen to twenty-five number.
  • So to have that type of media exposure
  • was surrealistic, for one thing.
  • But all of a sudden, we were activists.
  • And that took us out of the realm of just kind of tinkering
  • with rights.
  • And because we did not have a single negative response
  • to that.
  • And in fact, huge positives.
  • My Canadian relatives, my Irish Catholic Canadian relatives,
  • sent us down wedding cards.
  • Our next door neighbors, Ralph and Diane,
  • married for fifty years, sent us wedding presents.
  • Bess' employer--
  • BESS WATTS: Yeah.
  • Let me talk about that for a minute.
  • The day of the wedding, above the fold.
  • I work at the library at MCC, and the director
  • of the library that day canceled the staff meeting for anybody
  • that wanted to go to the wedding.
  • And the director himself came, and he videotaped the wedding,
  • and it's the only video that we have of the entire wedding.
  • And after that day, I felt bad, because I didn't ask
  • people to come to the wedding.
  • And I expected people to be unreasonable.
  • And now, I have to assume good will.
  • That's the difference.
  • And it was a real lesson for me.
  • And the Friday we went to work, after that,
  • I got a call from Diane Cicero, who
  • is the legal counsel, and also the Chief Diversity
  • Officer of MCC.
  • And I thought, oh, what did I do this time?
  • And she said, Bess, if you encounter
  • any negativity, if anybody harasses you in any way,
  • let me know as soon as you can.
  • And she has been one of the strongest advocates.
  • And as a result, I think, I was appointed
  • to the Diversity Council.
  • There was only one protest that day,
  • and it was actually kind of funny,
  • because the media had to seek out that one protester.
  • And all he could say was, what used
  • to be done in the dark of night, is now
  • being done in the light of day.
  • And I'm saying, hallelujah.
  • But it was just a beautiful day, and everything was positive.
  • And Anne and I can tell you that, in all of our activism,
  • we have not really had any negativity whatsoever--
  • ANNE TISCHER: Not personally directed at us.
  • There have been one or two oddballs.
  • We did a tax day rally at the post office at one point.
  • And the guy with the bullhorn and the crazy eyes.
  • The postmaster asked him to leave the area.
  • But overall, one of the greatest surprises
  • has been the number of supportive people.
  • Americans are fair minded.
  • The press may highlight that, and every time we had a rally,
  • they had to find the one or two--
  • BESS WATTS: One dissent.
  • ANNE TISCHER: --wingnuts.
  • But generally speaking, I can say,
  • when we were collecting postcards and signatures--
  • and we were getting 1,000 a week at one point
  • before the marriage vote--
  • we would go into completely neutral--
  • the rib festival-- completely neutral environments.
  • And get an unbelievable amount of support.
  • And even the people that could not sign it,
  • it would be rare that you would run into somebody who was rude.
  • They would say that their belief system wouldn't allow that.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Let me ask you this though,
  • because you touched on this a little, earlier.
  • Going to the rib festival, or the barbecue,
  • or whatever it is.
  • Was it easy to do that because you were women?
  • If I, personally, went into the barbecue pit festival,
  • I'd fear for my life.
  • BESS WATTS: Isn't that interesting?
  • I think it is easier for women.
  • As a result of the private work, I also
  • ran for president of CSA local 828, which is Monroe County.
  • And it's like 3500 members.
  • And I separate my GLBT activism from when
  • I go to the local meetings.
  • But when we were collecting letters, it was easy for me.
  • But there were a lot of people in the Podunk sections
  • of New York that would not sign.
  • But I do think that it is harder for men.
  • But Todd, I don't know.
  • You might want to ask men who have actually
  • gotten signatures.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Because, and this is my point of view,
  • but I think women are generally less--
  • not offended, but-- if you're going up to the barbecues
  • and asking women, and talking to other straight women
  • about marriage equality and that, most of them
  • would be like, yeah, OK.
  • Big deal.
  • Whereas the men, who may feel a little apprehensive
  • or a little offensive, wouldn't feel as threatened from women
  • coming up to them talking about it, as they would feel
  • threatened as a gay man coming up to them
  • and talking about it.
  • ANNE TISCHER: We also noticed that it's probably true
  • that it is easier for lesbians, or gay women.
  • But we also noticed that more women would sign.
  • Even though it would be a husband and wife team.
  • And obviously, they'd be progressive people,
  • because we'd be chatting.
  • But it was the wife's job to do that.
  • And I had on more than one occasion, the wife would say,
  • oh he doesn't do any of the political stuff.
  • So possibly, it has to do with some of that too.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: (unintelligible) threatened, anything.
  • BESS WATTS: But I have to tell you.
  • When I brought the letters to the Rochester labor account
  • executive board, Jim Bertolone-- who was the chair
  • and the president--
  • he would speak up and he says, I can't believe
  • that we don't have marriage.
  • It's such a fundamental right to have access
  • to equality in America.
  • And he set the tone.
  • And not one person did not sign.
  • So if you have someone speaking out as an ally,
  • who's obviously straight, and married, and macho--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: But also, his job
  • is to be politically savvy that way.
  • BESS WATTS: It is possibly his job,
  • but I believe that he believes it
  • with every fiber of his being.
  • ANNE TISCHER: And it may come down to personality again, too.
  • Because we do know people, James Bregg from HRC
  • came and worked with us and collected letters,
  • and we would be in the public market, et cetera.
  • But comfortable in his own skin about doing that.
  • An experienced activist.
  • And we weren't comfortable in our skins early on.
  • It's just the timing was right for us.
  • We had years of toughening up and realizing that people have
  • to hear an idea repeatedly before they can even
  • begin to really understand it.
  • And then also, we had to learn that rejection sometimes
  • has to do with someone else's own shame, or their own fear
  • of being stigmatized.
  • And so, one of the big things that we had problems--
  • we had more support from straight people than we
  • had from gay people.
  • By far.
  • Because of the fact that any human being
  • will try to avoid being stigmatized, if they possibly
  • can.
  • We would work with the gay, LGBT community,
  • to try to do consciousness raising,
  • and get people energized.
  • But by far, the people that were there instantly
  • supporting equality, more straight people.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: There's one thing we jumped ahead of.
  • Quickly here, I want to go back to the wedding in Washington
  • Square Park.
  • A great day for you guys, they had one protester
  • that the media picked up on.
  • However, Father Mulcahy did mention the fact
  • that the district attorney did threaten to arrest him
  • for performing this marriage.
  • BESS WATTS: Yes.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I want to get your take on that
  • and the significance of that.
  • BESS WATTS: Well I know that Reverend Jim was really torn
  • about doing a public ceremony, because he
  • could be arrested if he were to say the word marriage.
  • They actually contacted the DA and, fortunately, the DA
  • happened to be a lesbian.
  • So again, it was luck.
  • And you know, when the student is ready, the teacher appears.
  • And so they chose not to prosecute
  • if he said the word marriage.
  • Because I believe, was it Jason West, in Lake Placid
  • I think was one that performed marriage ceremonies.
  • And there was no--
  • And I think that he was--
  • I'm not sure.
  • No, no, he wasn't arrested.
  • No, he wasn't.
  • So scratch that.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: But the point I want to get to is
  • that there was that little bit of a problem--
  • BESS WATTS: Yes.
  • Yes.
  • There was that cloud, but I think Reverend Jim consciously
  • kept us separate from that.
  • Because it was a marriage.
  • It wasn't a dog and pony show.
  • We were getting married in our church.
  • So, I think he wanted to keep that--
  • at least I believe--
  • he didn't want us to be involved so much in that aspect.
  • But we were well aware of the fact that he could be arrested.
  • And we would have went to jail with him, if it came to that.
  • Did you have something to add?
  • ANNE TISCHER: We also had spent two years
  • talking to non-supportive county legislators every month.
  • So I think that we were prepared mentally.
  • In fact, we expected negative things to happen.
  • Which didn't.
  • It turned out to be a beautiful, lovely ceremony.
  • And we count that as our wedding day.
  • BESS WATTS: But I do have to say that I was out at work,
  • but I wasn't really out.
  • But when you're talking about being
  • on the front page of the paper, and all the media,
  • there was no going back.
  • And it was probably the best thing
  • that could have happened for me, is to be so out and visible.
  • Because everybody knew where I was coming from,
  • there was no guessing.
  • So it was really a blessing.
  • ANNE TISCHER: There were a couple of touching things
  • that happened.
  • One, I was in the human services field.
  • And an elderly woman who, I believe
  • she would be like eighty-seven years old, called.
  • She actually talked to Bess, thought she was talking to me,
  • and talked about how her nineteen-year-old brother had
  • killed himself.
  • And she believed that it was because he was gay.
  • And so, that is the sort of thing
  • that this started to generate.
  • And we started getting calls from people
  • who had immigration problems.
  • Instantly we became a lightning rod.
  • And we cultivated that.
  • Because it was very hard for people--
  • it seemed hard for people--
  • LGBT people, to be willing to step into that role.
  • And we were there.
  • We were the leaders that we were looking for.
  • BESS WATTS: You know, it's funny,
  • on the day of the wedding, or the day
  • after, I had this relationship where I work,
  • I'm inter-library loan at the library.
  • And I always get books for Hector.
  • He's a patron.
  • And he came to me.
  • And I was afraid of what people were going to say.
  • And he said, I'm mad at you.
  • And I said, why didn't you invite me to your wedding.
  • And then he proceeded to tell me about the experiences
  • that he went through as a Hispanic
  • coming and moving to Rochester in an all white neighborhood,
  • and being discriminated against.
  • And he just wanted me to know that he supports
  • me, and congratulations.
  • So many people sent us cards and gave us wedding gifts.
  • And it was really just overwhelming.
  • And the generosity of people is just astounding.
  • And most people are fair minded.
  • And the ones that have descent happen to have loud voices,
  • but they're losing the battle.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So let's move forward a little bit from that.
  • Because your fight for marriage equality didn't just
  • stop in Washington Square Park.
  • BESS WATTS: No.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: It really propelled us right up into 2012
  • where we actually got it from New York State.
  • BESS WATTS: Yes.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So talk to me a little bit, again,
  • about that dedication.
  • That commitment to really being out there.
  • And really getting what you had in Washington Square
  • Park available for everyone in the state.
  • BESS WATTS: I think that Anne and I as a team--
  • I mean, she is a pit bull.
  • And very task oriented.
  • And it is the sense of injustice.
  • And it was so funny in our lives,
  • I had the labor connection, and she
  • has the organizational skills.
  • And together we really worked well together,
  • and we were surrounded with wonderful mentors.
  • I mean the Tom Privateers the Scott Fearings,
  • the Sue Cowells, Harry Bronson.
  • All these people came in to play to create
  • the nucleus that we needed to move the ball forward.
  • ANNE TISCHER: One of the things that we
  • learned is that activists and leaders are there by default.
  • Something needed to be done.
  • Neither one of us were comfortable speaking publicly,
  • but it needed to be done.
  • So we showed up.
  • And then so-and-so needed to be talked to, lobbied.
  • So we'd show up.
  • Were we good at it?
  • Not at first.
  • We needed to get editorials written.
  • All right.
  • And there'd be griping going on, but it turns out we can write.
  • Who knew that I could letter signs in a straight row.
  • And so, as the need came up, and there was no one else to do it,
  • we were there.
  • And we had the good fortune to have some people around us who
  • will--
  • as long as we were willing to say,
  • this is what we need to do--
  • then we had supporters That would help us with that.
  • But mostly, it came down to there was nobody else to do it.
  • And that's why we say we are accidental activists
  • with no noticeable skills.
  • BESS WATTS: But also, because of the oppression,
  • and because of the discrimination,
  • we would have never reached our own self-actualization.
  • I would have never been able to be president of a Union,
  • or speak publicly, if it hadn't been for that.
  • It's that double edged sword that we always talk about.
  • But we still have a long way to go.
  • We're not over yet.
  • But we certainly feel that we've done our part.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: This is what's going
  • to be called a setup shot here.
  • Brian, I want you to stay on Bess.
  • I'm going to talk to Anne.
  • It's going to be on you, Here's what I need--
  • in all of the time that we've been talking
  • I've been singling on each of you,
  • but I need some reaction shots.
  • To cut in there.
  • So you're just going to sit there and listen to Anne.
  • As you would normally listen to her if she's talking to me.
  • And then we're going to reverse it.
  • Anne, my question to you would be,
  • tell me about the greatest thing about having
  • this woman in your life and being able to work
  • with her in this activism.
  • ANNE TISCHER: For the first nine years we were together,
  • Bess opened the car door for me.
  • Every single time.
  • I was privileged to be loved in a way that is rare.
  • And we never, almost never, argued.
  • Even though we have differences of opinion.
  • I am not the easiest person to get along with.
  • And so, to have someone who is very social,
  • and just tends to affairs of the hurt,
  • that was such a blessing for me.
  • And in terms of making me an effective activist,
  • Bess taught me.
  • Before you ask them for something,
  • ask how their kids are.
  • So there were skills that she brought to the table,
  • but mostly the fact that we could go home,
  • and we were working together.
  • And never have I doubted that she had my back.
  • And it doesn't get any better than that.
  • I don't know how anyone can be an activist who
  • doesn't have that.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: We're going to reverse it.
  • Now you just need to listen to Bess.
  • BESS WATTS: Yeah, listen to me.
  • Her listen?
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Same kind of question.
  • Having this woman in your corner.
  • The love and the satisfaction of that.
  • BESS WATTS: I remember when I was dating Anne
  • and when she would first appear in a room, she would smile.
  • And it would just light up my heart.
  • She's the most tenacious, caring person I know.
  • And she has such a sense of what justice is.
  • And what I love most about her is--
  • when we got married in Canada, legally--
  • my vow to her was, when I am with you,
  • I am nothing I was before, but everything I
  • hoped to be and more.
  • And she has made me a better person.
  • And I would have never achieved any of my goals in life,
  • if it hadn't been for her pushing me and pushing me.
  • There's a reason I call her Attila my Hun.
  • I want it on my gravestone.
  • I want it pointed right at her.
  • Attila my Hun.
  • Because anybody that knows Anne, she just has a way about her.
  • And I think that we were just meant for each other,
  • and we'll be together until the day we die.
  • And I love her very much.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Last question--
  • BESS WATTS: Was that OK?
  • ANNE TISCHER: I thought you were going to talk
  • about the babies crying.
  • BESS WATTS: Oh yeah.
  • Oh, lord.
  • That baby in the--
  • oh my god.
  • If she takes on one more project,
  • I'm going to kill her though.
  • ANNE TISCHER: Our operating principle for years,
  • and we were probably as busy as two human beings possibly
  • could be daily, doing this activism, especially
  • after the failed vote.
  • A lot of people went away.
  • Activists went away.
  • And we ramped up.
  • And needless to say, you're tired.
  • You're frustrated.
  • Because you can't get anyone to support you.
  • And nobody would come out, and nobody would share the work.
  • And so our motto became, it doesn't matter if you're tired,
  • or you're hungry, or you don't want to do this,
  • if you're a mama and the baby's crying, you get up
  • and take care of the baby.
  • So that was our mantra.
  • BESS WATTS: I hated that baby sometimes.
  • ANNE TISCHER: The babies crying, so you're
  • up at four o' clock in the morning
  • doing what you need to do.
  • BESS WATTS: It's your baby!
  • ANNE TISCHER: So I won't say it's been the easiest path,
  • but as Bess said, it's a path that
  • took us to self-actualization.
  • We didn't know what we were capable of.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Years from now, as history reflects
  • upon the two of you, what do you want to be most remembered for?
  • What are you most proud of?
  • ANNE TISCHER: I'd say persistence.
  • Because we wouldn't take no for an answer, and it was hard.
  • I mean, our feelings got hurt, and like anybody else,
  • insecurities.
  • After the failed 2009 vote, people went away.
  • And Todd Plank had been let go, as a scapegoat, by the pride
  • agenda.
  • Everybody was in disarray.
  • At that time we had to make the decision whether we would go it
  • alone, whether we were going to toss in the towel and just say,
  • well nobody else wants to do this.
  • There were probably six months when
  • I would be calling equality Rochester meetings,
  • and no one would show up.
  • I'd write minutes and put them out there.
  • And for me, the hardest thing was
  • to do this because you know it's the right thing that
  • has to be done.
  • We were prepared in Rochester when the governor finally
  • had his grasstops gathering.
  • Because they had done the analysis and they realized,
  • we need grassroots people mobilized in order
  • to be successful.
  • Because we persisted, even if it was just by ourselves.
  • We had the structure all ready to go,
  • and we continued our outreach.
  • That, to me, persistence would be what I am proudest of.
  • BESS WATTS: For me, the proudest probably
  • was developing and cultivating relationships with labor
  • when they came out for a press conference.
  • And the historically conservative police union,
  • and the firefighters union, stood in support.
  • That meant so much to me.
  • As well as the day the wedding license
  • were issued in Rochester.
  • I was just so proud, and so happy.
  • The people in line--
  • because we had a trellis, and we had decorations.
  • With Anne it just isn't good enough, it has to be excellent.
  • And the cake.
  • We had a wedding cake.
  • There was just so much to that day.
  • And we didn't know any of the couples that were
  • in line for a wedding license.
  • ANNE TISCHER: The early couples.
  • The ones that came three hours early to wait in line.
  • BESS WATTS: Right.
  • And it was so funny.
  • Because some of them are like, oh, we have marriage now.
  • Without realizing everything that went behind the scenes
  • to make that happen.
  • But to see the couples and how proud I
  • was to have been part of that historical event.
  • And it really is the proverbial snowball.
  • It's happening now.
  • When President Obama came out in support for marriage equality,
  • that was momentous.
  • There's always one word or two.
  • And today, inauguration day, he mentions Selma, Seneca Falls,
  • and stonewall.
  • Is that not the greatest?
  • I'm just so proud to be part of gay, lesbian, bisexual,
  • transgender history.
  • ANNE TISCHER: And we got Senator Elise's vote.
  • That was historic, to have the first GOP supporter.
  • Public supporter for marriage.
  • We took the pieces that we were good at, and melded them
  • with the governor's office and the big organizations.
  • We created a system that worked, that
  • has been exported now to other states.
  • Some of the people that worked in the coalition
  • that we had under Equality Rochester here from HRC,
  • and Pride Agenda, and--
  • BESS WATTS: Freedom to Marry, Empire State Pride-- yeah.
  • ANNE TISCHER: They now are in, and would check in.
  • They were in Maryland, they were in Wisconsin,
  • BESS WATTS: Minnesota.
  • ANNE TISCHER: Minnesota.
  • BESS WATTS: Maine.
  • ANNE TISCHER: Maine.
  • Yes.
  • And so, what we figured out and successfully
  • did here in Rochester.
  • Because we would lead the state in the counts.
  • And in terms of calls, letters, and so--
  • BESS WATTS: It was at one of the meetings
  • that we had for the the coalition.
  • Where the idea for Lady Gaga to mention Senator Grisanti
  • in Buffalo came to be.
  • And it was HRC that contacted Lady Gaga to get her to--
  • from the stage-- to call Senator Grisanti to support
  • marriage equality.
  • It was a meeting in Rochester that made that happen.
  • And a lot of people don't know that.
  • ANNE TISCHER: And then those people,
  • Jen Schwab is now in Maine.
  • And David Turley, and--
  • BESS WATTS: It's collected a lot of people
  • involved to make it happen.
  • ANNE TISCHER: And we mentor people now.
  • For instance, we teach a class and--
  • BESS WATTS: SUNY, Brockport.
  • ANNE TISCHER: --couple of classes we will teach on--
  • BESS WATTS: Policy in protest.
  • ANNE TISCHER: Policy in protest, disability, lobbying,
  • discrimination.
  • And so we are now mentoring the next generation.
  • BESS WATTS: We also do workshops on signs and visibility.
  • And that's just it.
  • We do too much.
  • And we are starting to like, OK, we've done our part.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, how do you pass that torch?
  • ANNE TISCHER: We let go of it.
  • Because one of the things that happens,
  • if you are identified as the leaders,
  • unless you let go of it and let it drop to the ground,
  • no one else is going to take it up.
  • At least for the Equality Rochester piece,
  • I totally stepped back.
  • And it took a little while, but now there
  • are some successful activists out
  • there thinking for themselves.
  • Initially, for the first six months, what do you think Anne?
  • Should we do this?
  • BESS WATTS: But Pride at Work is going to continue.
  • I mean, there's so much to be done.
  • There's transgender health care.
  • There's still DOMA.
  • In GLBT, education within labor.
  • There's so much that needs to be done, and Pride at Work
  • will continue.
  • And hopefully I'll continue to be involved in it as president,
  • or whatever.
  • But it is something that needs to happen, and will.
  • ANNE TISCHER: The other piece that needs to happen
  • is the international fight for LGBT.
  • The American evangelicals have gone around the world
  • and gotten legislation introduced
  • that has done serious harm.
  • It happens that our church, Open Arms Metropolitan Community
  • Church, has been blessed with Reverend Jim Mulcahy, who
  • now works with LGBT activists in Ukraine.
  • We have Maurice Tomlinson who won the David Kato
  • award for his work around the world,
  • but in particular in Uganda.
  • BESS WATTS: And Jamaica.
  • ANNE TISCHER: And Jamaica.
  • And the visiting pastor, who we want to stay,
  • is in fact, a former police officer who
  • goes around the world and teaches police forces how
  • to handle hate crimes.
  • And so they educate police forces,
  • they educate the judges, because Maurice,
  • his husband is an attorney.
  • International rights attorney.
  • So we are very tuned in to what's happening,
  • the worsening situation that is happening around the world.
  • So that's kind of our next focus.
  • BESS WATTS: Yeah, whatever.
  • A vacation maybe.
  • ANNE TISCHER: You're not done yet.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Well ladies, we'll leave it at that.
  • BESS WATTS: Thank you.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: And you did not have to look at your notebooks.
  • ANNE TISCHER: You never know though.
  • If you asked me to pinpoint a date.
  • BESS WATTS: Yeah, it was probably way too much.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Get these microphones off.