Video Interview, Bess Watts and Anne Tischer, January 21, 2013

KEVIN INDOVINO: [INAUDIBLE]

This is a conversation between us.

In your mind, there's no cameras here,

no lights, all that stuff.

The most important thing to remember,

is that the audience is not going

to hear my question to you.

BESS WATTS: OK.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So when you make a response,

or answer a question, you kind of have to set it up first.

Thinking OK, is the audience going

to know what I'm talking about here?

Set it up first for the audience and then answer the question.

ANNE TISCHER: Quasi-repeat your question.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.

Exactly.

If you get lost for words--

ANNE TISCHER: We tell people not to wear dark clothes

when they come to our house.

BESS WATTS: Yeah, between the cat and the glitter.

All right.

Let's just show them this pony.

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.

So, first and foremost, let's start with you, Bess.

I need the correct spelling of your first and last name,

how you would want it appearing on screen.

BESS WATTS: Bess Watts.

B-E-S-S W-A-T-T-S.

ANNE TISCHER: Anne Tischer, A-N-N-E T-I-S-C-H-E-R.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Let's just start out with some general questions

here, before we get into all of the work and activism stuff.

A lot of it's going to be kind of fishing for me,

because I don't know a lot about you.

Let's talk about how you guys met.

And then we'll move from that to, eventually,

getting married in Washington Square Park.

BESS WATTS: How did we meet?

We knew each other for several years.

About seven, I think.

And then we met at a Christmas party that friends of ours

were putting on in Hornell.

ANNE TISCHER: I had a cup marked single and employed,

and Bess picked me up.

BESS WATTS: And that appealed to me at the time.

ANNE TISCHER: I didn't know, previously,

that she was single.

And she was down in the southern tier.

And so we argued politics while everyone else was

enjoying the Christmas party.

And afterwards, I wrote her a thank you letter, which

she totally misinterpreted.

And it took a while before she realized

that I was hitting on her.

BESS WATTS: The second thank you letter

arrived sprayed with perfume.

And I got the hint then.

And then we courted for about six months through letters,

and we still both have the letters.

And we really got to know each other through correspondence.

And then we moved in together.

And we've been together eighteen years now.

ANNE TISCHER: Nineteen.

BESS WATTS: Nineteen.

We always debate on-- we're always off a year.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So, roughly, you guys met around '93, '94?

BESS WATTS: Late '94, and we got married in 2004,

in Washington Square Park.

ANNE TISCHER: In an act of civil disobedience.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Right.

So before we get to that, I just kind of want

a general sense of the 1980s, early '90s,

before you guys met.

What was it like for single lesbian women

here in Rochester.

What was the scene like?

BESS WATTS: I'm not from Rochester.

I am from Utah, and I was in the army, and lived in San Diego.

So I was in the army before, don't ask, don't tell.

But still you couldn't be gay and be in the army.

And that was in the '80s, during the disco era, and it was hard.

One of the reasons I got out of the military

is because you have to live with integrity.

And not being able to be out is why

I decided to be honorably discharged and got

a job in San Diego for libraries.

But I had a girl in every port, and I enjoyed being a lesbian.

But it was tough not being out at work, and out to my family,

really.

KEVIN INDOVINO: What brought you to Rochester?

BESS WATTS: I actually met someone

in the military who lived in Hornell.

And I moved to be with her.

And then that relationship really didn't work out.

But I worked at Alfred University for seven years.

And Anne and I had mutual friends,

and we ended up getting together.

And to this day, she is my true love.

It was meant to be.

I knew instantly.

KEVIN INDOVINO: What about you Anne,

before you met Bess, what was going on, what was life like?

ANNE TISCHER: When I was younger,

there were no lesbians that I knew at Rochester.

I didn't even know that I was lesbian.

I accidentally fell in love with a woman

who I had been spending a lot of time.

Previously, if you had asked me, I assumed that--

I mean, I already owned three bridesmaids dresses.

I was raised to be the ultimate heterosexual,

but I fell in love head over heels.

Did not know what was happening, fell in love.

And that was my introduction to the gay community.

And, by nature, I am an assertive sort of person.

So I did not necessarily suffer from the coming out process

in ways that other people have.

And unfortunately, I didn't understand

the process, and how difficult it is for some people.

So I did a hit and run with my family.

I said, oh, by the way, I'm gay.

I'll see you.

And so, we had five years of separation.

But in that time, I actually developed great friendships,

and went out to bars for the first time.

And developed a very, very close knit group of friends,

some of whom are still friends.

And so, because I was-- by nature--

an extrovert, when I came out, I came out at work,

I came out all over.

I was a lipstick lesbian in high heels, and that was that.

KEVIN INDOVINO: But were there any difficult--

You described that because of your nature,

it wasn't so difficult for you, but during that time period,

where were lesbian women finding information?

Where were they meeting other lesbians?

ANNE TISCHER: The Gay Alliance, actually.

There were coming out groups being led.

And I, in fact, did come to a couple of coming out things.

There were some women's tea dances that I attended.

Nancy and Lee Doohan at the time,

were very involved in the social aspects.

And then there were the bars.

And I went to Alan Street Bar in my high heels

and cute little skirt, and had to dodge

my very first fistfight.

It was quite exciting, you know.

There were supports out there, if you were looking for them.

I very quickly developed a tribe of friends that I relied on.

And so, we camped together, we vacationed, everything.

And I think that that was very common.

For people to develop a safe circle, and pretty much

stay within that group.

KEVIN INDOVINO: When you eventually

made it up here to Rochester, what were you finding in

regards to how supportive this community

was for lesbian women?

BESS WATTS: I found it was hard.

Well, I was in love with Anne, and we

got involved with our church.

And it was through our church that we developed a community.

And it took a long time for me to learn

about the GLBT community in Rochester.

But then, I wasn't really seeking.

And I'm not a bar person, per se.

And I know that when I was in the army,

that's how people met.

And I actually was beaten up once

when I was trying to go into a bar.

And it was an anti-gay hate crime,

but I couldn't report it at the time.

But for Rochester here, once I discovered the community,

I ended up just loving the community.

I think Rochester is very fortunate to have

such a vibrant GLBT community.

And it's really thanks to the Gay Alliance,

because anything you want to know, what bars to go to,

what restaurant, who's inclusive.

And there was coming out workshops at the Gay Alliance.

And this is how, actually, the speakers bureau training

went in.

And I was through the church when

we started working with the Empire State Pride Agenda.

It was through the Gay Alliance that we

got to meet people through the training that they did.

So it was wonderful.

ANNE TISCHER: The Gay Alliance has

done a surprising amount of support

for activism in general.

In terms of mentoring and providing space,

just the sheer encouragement.

There were times in our travels when we would hit a brick wall.

And Scott Fearing, or Sue Cowell,

there would be someone here that would show you

a different way of doing it.

Or a different way of thinking.

It's been it's been, largely, I would

have to say, the Gay Alliance has

fostered an incredible amount of change, and safety.

BESS WATTS: Let's not forget the empty closet.

If you want information, just pick up the Empty Closet,

it's a wonderful resource.

OK.

Two things I'm going to follow up with you.

Because you said something that--

and forgive me because this might

be a sensitive subject for you, but you

talked about getting beat up once when coming out of a bar.

BESS WATTS: No--

KEVIN INDOVINO: A lot of people are talking about some

of the things that we had to deal

with back in those early days.

BESS WATTS: It's so funny, because I remember

the evening I was stationed in Germany,

in Heidelberg, Germany.

And you had to take the train to go to Mannheim to this lesbian

bar.

There were five of us, and we all

played on the same sports team.

And I had a lot of friends, and cool lesbians.

And we always went, every Friday or Saturday night, to this bar.

And in Germany there's--

I forget the name of it, but a walking space.

No cars travel back and forth.

And you had to go down into this basement like structure

to ring the doorbell and be allowed into this club.

There were four of us going to this club.

And some gentleman had went to the bar,

and they were denied access, and they were upset.

And then they found out that it was a lesbian bar.

And the timing, we were coming, and somebody I was with

was holding hands with another woman.

And they just got violent all of the sudden.

And I got my front teeth knocked out.

I was hit--

I remember the fist coming.

My friend that was with me got cut on the cheek.

We're laying on the sidewalk, on the pavement.

I'm bleeding, she's screaming, and they ran off.

There were four men, and all these lesbians come out

of the bar, and what happened?

And all of a sudden you hear the polizei, the local police,

coming.

And we realized that we could not be there,

because if they knew that we were at a lesbian bar, then

we would be discharged.

And subjected to all these questions.

And so we're bleeding all over, we get in the cab,

we go to the local hospital the military one in Heidelberg.

My friend had to get stitches.

We made up this ridiculous story about how

I was playing softball, I was swinging a bat,

I knocked my teeth out.

It was a lie, and everybody knew it,

but the people got away with assault.

And we couldn't do anything about it.

And we had to go to work on Monday like nothing happened.

So it was just one of those things.

And that was really one of the deciding factors.

How can you live authentically if you always

have to deny a core identity.

And it really haunted me, and I couldn't talk about it

for years.

But it is part of life's experiences.

And I was, while I was in the army, called in to see ID.

Because I was on a list and I always joked,

if I'm not number one on the list,

I don't want to be on it at all.

But I had to deny, no I'm not, I don't have a girlfriend,

no, are you kidding, I'm not one of those.

And it's just degrading.

And thank God, how many years later, twenty-five years,

that don't ask, don't tell, has finally been repealed.

And people can live openly without hiding.

You don't have to burn your letters,

you don't have to destroy parts of your identity,

and be true to yourself.

ANNE TISCHER: We actually know several really sad stories

of people who ended up getting kicked out

of the military, just short of their pensions, et cetera.

And when don't ask, don't tell, failed to pass at one point,

because of Bess' stories, and some

of these other circumstances, I went down with Get Equal,

and got arrested on the White House fence.

I can't think of any topic more offensive

than abusing the military service personnel

for their sexual orientation, when

they're willing to die for this country.

BESS WATTS: Yes.

I can't believe she spent the night in jail.

At this time I was with this Health and Safety Conference

in Lake Placid.

And it was all orchestrated.

The bail was set up, and she was with people,

they knew what they were doing.

It wasn't a fly by the night protest.

But to get a phone call that says,

your wife's been arrested, and we

don't know if she'll get out tonight,

she'll probably spend the night in jail.

Here I am, in my bed, thinking of her and the cold cement

floor.

And then, the next day, it was the time of her life,

to be perfectly frank.

There's a reason I call her, Attila my Hun.

ANNE TISCHER: And what was interesting,

is I met Dan Choi when I was down there.

And described why I had driven down,

and described Bess' experiences, and some of these other folks.

And he cried, because people who really were fighting

the fight for don't ask, don't tell, were so isolated

and just felt so overwhelmed, because they

couldn't get a lot of support.

It's an outrage.

It still is.

The fact that the families, right now,

are still treated as second class citizens.

BESS WATTS: It will change.

I'm convinced.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So let's get into some political activism

and some workplace activism.

Anne, let me just stay with you for a moment.

What drives you?

Because it's not the average Jane, or Joe,

who can get up there, and get arrested on the White House

fence.

Where does that passion and then that drive come from?

ANNE TISCHER: I think I was raised

by parents who encouraged you to act with integrity.

And each of them had family stories

where they did heroic, or courageous things.

Either on the job, or something.

So when you grow up hearing a little story like that,

it sets expectations.

And I'm the oldest of four.

And just had always been taught, you take responsibility.

I had a whole series of experiences in my life.

But one of the things that made it possible

for me to comfortably advocate, and be vocal about being LGBT,

I was a fat kid.

So I had to fight the battle of self-esteem

when I was overweight and people were picking on me then.

And because I mastered that, by the time I got to the stages

where I'm facing my own in unequal treatment,

I had already gone through stages

of fighting for women's rights, fighting anti-war Vietnam

protests, the American-Indian thing.

Because I had been bullied, or attempted bullied, as a kid.

And so, it just translated.

And bit by bit you become stronger.

And for me, becoming an abused minority was overnight.

Because who knew I was gay.

It was eye opening to me, the prejudice.

And if I was willing to fight for other groups,

I was going to fight for myself.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Bess, how about you?

BESS WATTS: Unlike Anne, I knew when I was three days old

that I was a lesbian.

And what prompted me-- you know what,

I have to say, to become a fierce advocate,

and to form a Pride at Work chapter, and to speak out,

I have to hand it to Anne.

And also turning fifty.

ANNE TISCHER: That's a big thing.

BESS WATTS: I tell my friends that when

you reach the point when people are afraid of what they think

of you, when you reach the point of,

they have to worry about what I think of them.

And when you reach that point, then you can speak out.

I had a deathly fear of speaking in public.

I couldn't even do an offering call at church without shaking.

And when we formed the chapter of Pride at Work in 2007,

which is a LGBT advocacy group under AFL-CIO,

for gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender labor.

I wasn't speaking for me, I was speaking for our members.

And I felt that was easier.

I remember a meeting where we had Senator Bruno, at the time.

They were trying to pass this law for Family Access

Bill, where gay families could be represented,

and it wouldn't be in the public realm,

it would be in the confidentiality in the family

courts.

And I was so scared.

I raised my hand and I said, why haven't you passed this bill?

They've been trying to pass it for twenty years.

Clearly it's a women's issue, and I

didn't feel I knew what I was talking about.

But I did it.

And I remember Senator Bruno going,

let's just move the bill.

And finally, it wasn't me that moved the bill,

but I think that I might have helped with the tipping point.

And I realized then that having an organization,

and having members behind you, gives you courage

where you might not have had it otherwise.

KEVIN INDOVINO: A follow up with private work then.

Talk to me a little bit about the initiation

of a private work chapter here, locally.

And about using the labor force to promote change.

BESS WATTS: In 2002 I think it was, Anne's mother passed away.

And I had to take vacation time, to take bereavement leave,

to be with Anne.

And my coworkers would have had bereavement leave.

Anne had major surgery in, I think, 2004 or five.

ANNE TISCHER: Three.

BESS WATTS: Three.

And I had depleted my leave bank.

But my coworkers could have had sick leave,

because they're married.

And I felt that that was an injustice.

And I went to my union president at the time at MCC,

at Monroe Community College, Pat Wolff.

And I said, we need to change this.

We need domestic partner benefits for MCC.

And she said, Bess, you do the research,

and we'll see what we can do.

I did the research.

There was a lot of research material to work with.

Kodak, Bausch & Lomb, the city of Rochester.

All of them have domestic partner benefits.

Monroe County does not, but that's

another story, and another mission, if you will.

Getting talking to Pat, and having her advocate,

and getting domestic partner benefits,

really turned me into an accidental advocate.

Because we were, at the time, with Monroe County employees.

But when we voted the contract for Monroe Community College,

it was just for MCC, but I felt I was leaving Monroe County

employees behind.

And I did a lot of research.

And we have out in equal.

Kodak has Galaxy or Xerox, I get confused.

A very strong pro-GLBT community, but it

was really lacking for people in public sector.

Or IBEW.

Or the police union.

So, I found that Pride at Work was the only organization that

was available.

And we formed a chapter.

And as a result of that chapter, it took two years

to cultivate relationships.

I do a monthly report.

We have not a lot of members, but very active members.

And together we've really created change

within the labor community.

And I got to tell you, we are doing the labor community

a huge favor.

They've been waiting for Pride at Work.

I say that because the people I've encountered

say, thank god you're here.

Because I have this employee, I don't know the language.

Can you help me with the language for the contract?

I have somebody that works with me in the warehouse,

can I give her your card?

Absolutely.

When we first formed Pride at Work,

we were getting calls once or twice a week.

Hey, we got marriage now, why do I have to pay insurance

on the health care?

Well yes you do, it's a federal.

So we've been such a vehicle for the community,

and that really came into play when

the marriage equality bill--

we had a press conference, and all the labor leaders,

with the exception of building and trades,

spoke at the press conference for marriage equality.

And that was because of the work that we

did through Pride at Work.

And I discovered that you have to have an organization

to have power behind you.

And now I'm on the National Board of Pride at Work,

and I was just elected as the vice president of organizing

for the national level.

There are--

KEVIN INDOVINO: That's OK.

Why don't you get a drink of water?

BESS WATTS: Yes, I will.

Thank you.

ANNE TISCHER: She left out a two year thing

that I think is of very great importance.

The reason she started Pride at Work

is, as Monroe Community College got domestic partner benefits,

but the county employees overall did not.

And so we started in 2005 to speak monthly

at the county legislature, advocating for domestic partner

benefits for the entire county.

And we were there two or three times, and totally naive.

We really thought it was an oversight

that they hadn't extended it.

And about the third time we were there,

Harry Bronson's son gives us a call and says,

you girls need a little mentoring about lobbying.

And so, what happened is we continued for years,

every month, lobbying.

And the more often we got no for an answer,

the more we had to dig into deeper tactics,

find more mentors, find other doors to go through.

And that is how it evolved that Harry Bronson then hooked us up

with Tom Privateer.

And so the networking that went on.

And that is how Bess went looking for pride at work,

knowing that you have to have the power in order

to create the change.

But that two year period was funny,

because we were wet behind the ears, and--

BESS WATTS: Absolutely.

ANNE TISCHER: --Naive.

BESS WATTS: I wish we knew now, what we knew then.

Have you worked with the county as well?

ANNE TISCHER: I did.

I worked in chronic care Medicaid for the county.

And I worked with gay men who were, some of them,

thirty year veterans.

And unable to come out, simple as that.

I was never in the closet.

And previous to the county, I worked at Xerox,

where LGBT people, certainly gay and lesbian people,

were treated very well.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So, talk to me about the work environment.

So talk to me a little bit about--

you worked in one place that was very accepting.

And then you're working for Hoping government institution

that, to this day, is not that accepting, they won't even

talk about it.

Talk to me about that kind of work environment

and the challenges and the frustrations

that one can experience working in that kind of environment.

ANNE TISCHER: If we had not had a little activist

thing going on, it might have been more oppressive.

But, by then, every time somebody said no,

or every time somebody did something that was unjust,

it actually created more resolve for us.

And so I started by getting involved with the union.

And I think that, early on, I--

and I think also Bess--

realized that the greatest thing we could do for LGBT equality

was to be the most out, vocal, visible couple possible.

And so that was my function at the county.

That I was out and open.

But I was likeable too.

And so that makes it--

if you are appreciated, and I would stick up for other people

also--

so, if you are accepted as a human being,

then it's much easier to live in that type of an environment.

It's easier for women, also.

And the men that I knew at the county,

I witnessed very oppressive, obnoxious behaviors there.

After I left the county, I went to one

of Rochester's big hospitals, where

there is zero mandatory tolerance training.

And I witnessed awful things happening.

And that's where you would see same sex

partners coming in and being quizzed about their right

to visit.

And I'm standing there--

I worked for the social work department--

and I'm standing there knowing that legally there was nothing

that these people could do.

And eventually you could talk to the staff, et cetera.

But to this day, none of the hospitals in Rochester

have mandatory tolerance or diversity training.

BESS WATTS: But back to the Monroe County.

When we first formed the Pride at Work,

we expected, naively, that all these people

would come out of the woodwork and join Pride at Work.

Not realizing-- and we almost gave up

forming the chapter Pride at Work.

If it hadn't been for Scott Fearing, encountering him

and saying that you have to reach people where they are.

And we went to this training that he did for Nixon Peabody--

ANNE TISCHER: Back up-- we put on a forum.

A speaker's panel.

BESS WATTS: That's what I was getting at, yeah.

A speakers panel where the county employees--

some came, but it was almost--

ANNE TISCHER: Three people.

BESS WATTS: --three people.

And all it was was complaining, and not

really wanting to do anything.

And a real anger that they experienced.

It was really odd, and we almost gave up.

And as a result of that, we encountered Scott Fearing,

you're right.

ANNE TISCHER: And Scott had taken us.

We told him.

We had five panelists, and three attendees.

And I worked with three gay people,

so I knew there were a lot of LGBT people

in the county, oppressed.

And we couldn't reach them.

Newsletters, whatever.

There was no way to get people to respond.

Scott had a training where he talked about,

and this was a corporate training that he said, come.

And he introduced us to the Cass model of sexual identity

development, and some other tools,

where he said that you have to meet people

where they are in their comfort level of coming out.

And in a big organization in particular,

you can't necessarily raise consciousness

from the bottom up.

You have to create an environment that

is safe from the top down.

At which point, that's when Bess started drinking beer with--

BESS WATTS: With the labor guys.

ANNE TISCHER: --union leaders.

Because she realized A, she had to be

part of the power structure.

So she became a Labor Council delegate on the executive board

there.

Volunteered for every committee.

So she had to be part of the structure.

And then had to convert hearts and minds of the leaders,

so that perception-wise, it's a safe environment.

And once that happened, then we started seeing a little bit

more response.

BESS WATTS: But I have to tell you

that that county meeting that we did have,

there was one person that was in that meeting that's

still with us today.

And that's Judy Johnson.

And she's still a member, and she's a county employee,

and I couldn't be more proud of her living authentically.

She's an African-American, her gender expression is male,

and she's proud to be a lesbian.

And I'm proud that she's a member of Pride at Work,

because she was there at the very beginning.

And that that was worth it.

Just to have that one person that

sticks with you through the development of Pride at Work.

And she always challenges me, and she's always a good voice.

ANNE TISCHER: One of the things that, in order to build--

because Bess never asked for support, for two years.

She spent two years developing relationship with the unions.

If there was a strike, we'd be making signs,

we'd be showing up there and walking the picket line.

And sometimes bringing people who weren't even

involved in the union at all.

But collecting money.

When the Mott strikers out in Williamson, we would go out,

we'd cook for them, take money out, walk the line.

They came and marched with us in the gay pride parade.

BESS WATTS: And distributed over 5,000 leaflets.

And it was through those relationships,

and you're talking Timbuktu.

And you're talking someone probably

hasn't heard gay all week.

And we introduce each other, hi, I'm a lesbian.

My name is Bess.

Jokingly, but Anne and I always introduce each other as wife.

This is my wife, Anne.

And initially people are taken back.

And the second, hey how is your wife, Anne doing?

Or how's your wife, Bess doing?

So language matters, and words matter.

And we learned that early on.

Especially to say gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender,

because people say GLBT so they don't have to say the words.

And so every labor meeting that we have every month,

I make sure that I say, I'm Bess.

I'm the gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender organization

Pride at Work AFL-CIO.

And it's great.

ANNE TISCHER: And the use of humor, OK?

We have learned so much over ten years worth of work.

The use of humor will open doors like nothing else.

She refers to me as Attila my Hun.

And so, if you go in and demand your rights,

you've already lost the battle.

It all comes down to changing hearts and minds,

and making people realize, hey this is your neighbor.

We like these people.

It's just incidental that they happen to be LGBT.

BESS WATTS: Right.

And we learned, and we've had mentors along the way.

And it's like when the student is ready,

the teacher will appear.

We have found that in our activism.

Linda Donahue is someone I have as a mentor in the labor

community.

But I remember attending something that she had.

And she said, you don't expect people

to show up for your event, if you don't support theirs.

And that's really been Pride at Work's motto.

We've been there at every strike, at every rally,

if somebody needs something, we'll be there.

And now, we feel that if we need help, we can ask them.

So it's all about cultivating and building relationships.

ANNE TISCHER: We actually use the same principles

when we work specifically on marriage equality.

We set up Equality Rochester.

And use the same philosophies to build relationship

while we made signs for every progressive organization.

We lent our generator to the Occupy Rochester people.

And to this day, we are members of all

these different progressive groups.

Well, the payback on that.

When we were doing the big push for marriage equality,

metro justice let us use their office space, their phone

banks, their copies.

Big support from these organizations.

But again, we have done years of relationship building,

before we did the ask.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So let's talk about marriage equality.

Because before you even got involved with marriage equality

activism.

You already kind of were out there

as a proponent for marriage equality.

Let's talk about that this isn't to--

can't legally say marriage.

Civil union.

What did you call it?

I knew you guys, in the press, called it a marriage.

But legally it was what?

A civil union?

BESS WATTS: When was this?

ANNE TISCHER: 2004.

BESS WATTS: 2004.

It was considered marriage through our church.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So let's start at the beginning though.

Let's talk about making that decision.

BESS WATTS: OK.

OK.

You know what?

We're going to get married, we're

going to get married through our church.

We're going to do it in Washington Square Park.

The whole thinking behind that.

And how important that was to maybe--

I would think generate the bigger discussion.

ANNE TISCHER: Actually there was a big movement at the time.

Interfaith advocates had a lot of clergy involved

in marriage supportive actions.

And our denomination, which is Metropolitan Community Church,

which was founded by Troy Perry, who was an early LGBT activist.

BESS WATTS: And one of the plaintiffs for prop eight.

ANNE TISCHER: And our church wanted

to do a nationwide action.

You're probably better at explaining this.

BESS WATTS: A nationwide action to show

that there's support for clergy support for marriage equality.

And our pastor was looking for couples

who are already committed, that are devoted to each other

and are willing to marry.

So we were approached and asked if we

would want to do a marriage, publicly,

at Washington Square Park.

And we said, sure, why not, not realizing everything

that it entailed.

So we said we would, and the date

was set for April 29th, 2004.

And I took the day off from work,

and it was really quite interesting,

because I didn't ask a lot of people

that I worked with if they wanted to come to the wedding.

I didn't want people to feel that they had to believe in it

or not.

So it was odd.

Didn't you think that?

So, we did ask our friend, Deb Moore,

to do a reading, who I work with.

And the Reverend, Jim Mulcahy, asked the clergy--

there were how many clergy?

ANNE TISCHER: There were a dozen clergy

from different denominations.

BESS WATTS: Right.

And we were interviewed for the DNC,

probably a month prior, in March, with I forget--

ANNE TISCHER: Jim Memut

BESS WATTS: Jim Memut interviewed us.

And it wasn't really related to the marriage.

It was just about marriage equality.

So the day the wedding took place, well, let's

back up a little bit.

Because we did go to City Hall to get a marriage license.

We were the first same sex couple

to ask for, and be refused a marriage license.

And we were so nervous going in there.

I'm not sure whether we thought we were going to get arrested,

or thrown out, or something.

We went up to the counter and the girls were just distraught.

Wait, wait, wait.

And they called Carolee Concklin down,

who was the clerk at the time.

And she came down and said, I am so glad to see you.

She took us upstairs into a private room, handed us

a folder of materials that she had been collecting following

the marriage fight, and essentially said,

find a way to sue us, because we can't give you

a marriage license.

BESS WATTS: And we invited her to the wedding.

ANNE TISCHER: She has been an incredible ally, unbelievable.

But that was one of the unexpected surprise

supports that keeps you going.

And we constantly have run into that.

Where you assume there's no help out there

and there'll be people that keep you going.

BESS WATTS: Right.

And the night before the wedding.

The police liaison came to our house

to talk to us to make sure, because he was going

to be there with other police, to make sure

that there was not going to be any revolt, disruption.

Thank you.

She finds the words for me.

And on the day of the wedding, we

get the Democrat and Chronicle, and our picture

is above the fold.

And I forget the headlines, a couple to marry today,

or something of that effect.

And it was a media event.

We were getting calls from channel 10, channel 8, channel

9, I mean all four of the news stations.

And it was a beautiful, windy day.

April 29th.

Anne loves wind, that's why I remember.

And yellow flowers.

Go ahead, you talk about the wedding itself.

ANNE TISCHER: We were surprised.

We thought we were going to do a very small--

our rallies, and protests, and everything else,

had been largely in the fifteen to twenty-five number.

So to have that type of media exposure

was surrealistic, for one thing.

But all of a sudden, we were activists.

And that took us out of the realm of just kind of tinkering

with rights.

And because we did not have a single negative response

to that.

And in fact, huge positives.

My Canadian relatives, my Irish Catholic Canadian relatives,

sent us down wedding cards.

Our next door neighbors, Ralph and Diane,

married for fifty years, sent us wedding presents.

Bess' employer--

BESS WATTS: Yeah.

Let me talk about that for a minute.

The day of the wedding, above the fold.

I work at the library at MCC, and the director

of the library that day canceled the staff meeting for anybody

that wanted to go to the wedding.

And the director himself came, and he videotaped the wedding,

and it's the only video that we have of the entire wedding.

And after that day, I felt bad, because I didn't ask

people to come to the wedding.

And I expected people to be unreasonable.

And now, I have to assume good will.

That's the difference.

And it was a real lesson for me.

And the Friday we went to work, after that,

I got a call from Diane Cicero, who

is the legal counsel, and also the Chief Diversity

Officer of MCC.

And I thought, oh, what did I do this time?

And she said, Bess, if you encounter

any negativity, if anybody harasses you in any way,

let me know as soon as you can.

And she has been one of the strongest advocates.

And as a result, I think, I was appointed

to the Diversity Council.

There was only one protest that day,

and it was actually kind of funny,

because the media had to seek out that one protester.

And all he could say was, what used

to be done in the dark of night, is now

being done in the light of day.

And I'm saying, hallelujah.

But it was just a beautiful day, and everything was positive.

And Anne and I can tell you that, in all of our activism,

we have not really had any negativity whatsoever--

ANNE TISCHER: Not personally directed at us.

There have been one or two oddballs.

We did a tax day rally at the post office at one point.

And the guy with the bullhorn and the crazy eyes.

The postmaster asked him to leave the area.

But overall, one of the greatest surprises